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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

@Mambo Kings- how many Viper builders are there?

Rondar is the builder, The class has gone through some significant build changes over the years such as the rudder configuration  and a switch to carbon mast. 

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Side bar of all side bars: Note Alberta just won the Briar. Few on this thread will have a clue...

Curling has its share of controversy too...

BROOM GATE

In every sport, the equipment is vital to the game. And although one might not expect it, even brooms can be optimized. Broom Gate refers to a controversy in curling where newly invented high-tech brooms were seen by many as a danger to the fundamentals of the sport. The ice Pad Broom from the company Hardline had sparked this controversy because curlers felt it altered the core aspect of their game. In curling, the skip is responsible for placing the stone with his ability to throw it accurately. The instructions of the skip guide the sweepers and alter its speed, having only little effect on the direction of the stone. But with the ice Pad sweepers had gained so much control over the stone that they could steer it at will. Teams using this brooms had an unfair advantage over their competition. The controversy has been solved at the curling technology summit in 2016. The summit decided that all professional curlers must use standard broom head fabrics to ensure competitiveness is assured.

 

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11 hours ago, Bill5 said:

This is interesting - and nice to see nobody accusing someone of being an idiot or a liar. From  a promotion standpoint, what should this entail for ILCA? They have a great website for all sailors - members or not -  and will support activities of the District Secretaries. ( @RobbieB maybe you can elaborate.) Are we talking about advertising? 

Concerning the builders, I am thinking they will still do their own marketing. Ovington are already advertising the fastest ILCA. 

Note I have no strong opinion on this one - just interested in the conversation

I think I posted earlier that I've had what I feel to be really good support from the NA-ILCA office.  We also now have a new co-secretary who also happens to be the D11 secretary.  He's been very communicative with us since he took the reigns a couple of weeks ago.  I've gone to the class office over the years with my share of requests and while I've haven't been able to get 100% of the ask on occasion they've always tried to work with me the best they can.

As for advertising.  The dealers are advertising what they are selling so far.  The builders are popping out press releases

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38 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I think I posted earlier that I've had what I feel to be really good support from the NA-ILCA office.  We also now have a new co-secretary who also happens to be the D11 secretary.  He's been very communicative with us since he took the reigns a couple of weeks ago.  I've gone to the class office over the years with my share of requests and while I've haven't been able to get 100% of the ask on occasion they've always tried to work with me the best they can.

As for advertising.  The dealers are advertising what they are selling so far.  The builders are popping out press releases

How does one measure the success of a class's support activities?

1. Number of new boats sold this year.
2. Increase in number of class members.
3. Increase in participation in club racing.
4. Increase in participation at regattas.
5. Reduction in whining about the class on DA.
6. Something else.

 

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11 hours ago, VWAP said:

Is that a promise or a threat?

A promise.  Never left.  Interesting reading.  Some gold in the last page or so.  But more focused on getting the rents a vaccine at moment.

33 minutes ago, tillerman said:

How does one measure the success of a class's support activities?

1. Number of new boats sold this year.
2. Increase in number of class members.
3. Increase in participation in club racing.
4. Increase in participation at regattas.
5. Reduction in whining about the class on DA.
6. Something else.

 

Different measures would likely be appropriate for different classes because of their different focuses, no?  For Lasers, which was founded and thrived on the basic of SMOD and ease of access it would seem that would be relevant and why the ever escalating costs and that boats are becoming less not more equal is frustrating.

 

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23 minutes ago, Wess said:

A promise.  Never left.  Interesting reading.  Some gold in the last page or so.  But more focused on getting the rents a vaccine at moment.

Different measures would likely be appropriate for different classes because of their different focuses, no?  For Lasers, which was founded and thrived on the basic of SMOD and ease of access it would seem that would be relevant and why the ever escalating costs and that boats are becoming less not more equal is frustrating.

 

When do you think Laser discontinued being a SMOD? I recall as a kid folks taking about the Trask California boats being better.

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

When do you think Laser discontinued being a SMOD? I recall as a kid folks taking about the Trask California boats being better.

I had never heard of "Trask California" Lasers so I googled it (as one does) and found this article about Don Trask

An extract...

Don met Ian Bruce, who was showcasing a prototype of a single-handed dinghy at the New York Boat Show. When Ian sold 155 boats in 10 days, he knew he’d landed on something good. The boat was a Laser and Ian and Don came to a mutual agreement that Don would be the West Coast distributor. Don, and his $35/month garage, was up to the challenge. His crew Bill Kreysler came on as production manager. His friend Jim Hill (a former crew for Lowell North and a graduate of Harvard Business School) worked out a business plan that involved borrowing a lot of money. The team built 360 Lasers in the first year; 1,100 in the second year; and 2,200 in the third year. By the fourth year, they graduated to a 55,000 square foot facility. In a few short years, the operation expanded to include J/24s and Stars. From 1970-1981, Don made 11,000 Lasers, 300 J/24s, and 30 Stars. 

So I guess the answer to the question as to when the Laser stopped being an SMOD is some time in 1971.

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17 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I had never heard of "Trask California" Lasers so I googled it (as one does) and found this article about Don Trask

An extract...

Don met Ian Bruce, who was showcasing a prototype of a single-handed dinghy at the New York Boat Show. When Ian sold 155 boats in 10 days, he knew he’d landed on something good. The boat was a Laser and Ian and Don came to a mutual agreement that Don would be the West Coast distributor. Don, and his $35/month garage, was up to the challenge. His crew Bill Kreysler came on as production manager. His friend Jim Hill (a former crew for Lowell North and a graduate of Harvard Business School) worked out a business plan that involved borrowing a lot of money. The team built 360 Lasers in the first year; 1,100 in the second year; and 2,200 in the third year. By the fourth year, they graduated to a 55,000 square foot facility. In a few short years, the operation expanded to include J/24s and Stars. From 1970-1981, Don made 11,000 Lasers, 300 J/24s, and 30 Stars. 

So I guess the answer to the question as to when the Laser stopped being an SMOD is some time in 1971.

And then PSA came along - I can't track down exactly when. Interestingly, Ian Bruce was involved. 

I met Don Trask at the Laser NA's in 1975 in Oxnard. Wind emptied out and we drifted alongside each other for about an hour. Nice guy!

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35 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I had never heard of "Trask California" Lasers so I googled it (as one does) and found this article about Don Trask

An extract...

Don met Ian Bruce, who was showcasing a prototype of a single-handed dinghy at the New York Boat Show. When Ian sold 155 boats in 10 days, he knew he’d landed on something good. The boat was a Laser and Ian and Don came to a mutual agreement that Don would be the West Coast distributor. Don, and his $35/month garage, was up to the challenge. His crew Bill Kreysler came on as production manager. His friend Jim Hill (a former crew for Lowell North and a graduate of Harvard Business School) worked out a business plan that involved borrowing a lot of money. The team built 360 Lasers in the first year; 1,100 in the second year; and 2,200 in the third year. By the fourth year, they graduated to a 55,000 square foot facility. In a few short years, the operation expanded to include J/24s and Stars. From 1970-1981, Don made 11,000 Lasers, 300 J/24s, and 30 Stars. 

So I guess the answer to the question as to when the Laser stopped being an SMOD is some time in 1971.

Mr Task was at a Zoom meeting a while back with some of the others from that era. Interesting to hear from those that did so much for this class.

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Plus Lasers were being built in England in 1972 and Ireland along the way as well. 

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12 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Mr Task was at a Zoom meeting a while back with some of the others from that era. Interesting to hear from those that did so much for this class.

Indeed. Here is another quote from that article I linked...

Don’s vision simply went beyond what anyone else was doing: inviting Paul Elvstrom to speak, and then giving seventy-five kids a chance to sail against the legend; creating the Laser Slalom and inviting the world’s most famous sailors to come and make fools of themselves under the window of the Club—and these people actually showed up, which was a testament to Trask’s friendships around the world. We had a trailer that carried eight Lasers (a fleet-to-go.) And every weekend it went somewhere, anywhere, from Manteca to Medford, South Tahoe, Balboa.  …whenever some deserving young kid couldn’t get to a Laser through his personal bank account, or through a foundation or a junior program, there were the ubiquitous ‘Factory Seconds’. Sometimes it required an extra inspection, but there always seemed to be a Factory Second when one was needed. Usually, it was the right color.

 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

And then PSA came along - I can't track down exactly when. Interestingly, Ian Bruce was involved. 

I met Don Trask at the Laser NA's in 1975 in Oxnard. Wind emptied out and we drifted alongside each other for about an hour. Nice guy!

Performance Sailcraft NZ Limited was incorporated 25 Sep 1973 - so it would have been some time around then. 

I'm unclear about Australian, but NZ made Lasers for approx 20 years, then things changed - a more open trade agreement with Australia (called CER), dropping of high luxury tax - all helped the decision for new Lasers in NZ to be imported from Australia.

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

 For Lasers, which was founded and thrived on the basic of SMOD and ease of access it would seem that would be relevant and why the ever escalating costs and that boats are becoming less not more equal is frustrating.

So around the same period of time there were Lasers being built in NZ, Aus, USA, England, Ireland and Canada. It could be argued the boat never really was a true SMOD for more than a couple years. And there is no way those oldies were equal! 

And at this stage, I don't believe we have enough (any) evidence that the new regime boats are becoming less equal. 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Anyone know the early history of Australia? When building of Lasers started?

PSA seem to be under the impression that they have been building Lasers since 1964!

1249085269_ScreenShot2021-03-15at6_48_31PM.thumb.png.54db412b4260b85caeaf18fe35c46cef.png

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Good article on the PSA website about mast rakes and what rake is best in different circumstances.

https://psasailing.com.au/pages/mast-rake-explained

Extract...

Latest go fast rakes:

Laser 4.7

57kg crew

3815

You want as much leach tension as possible. (note, the Vang loads on a 4.7 are higher than a Radial, so harder for the kids to pull on, remember that when coaching and work around the sailor if they are having issues pulling on enough Vang)

Laser Radial

3808 to 3818

Laser with new STDMkII sail

90kg to 92kg – 3810

83kg about 3808.

If you are a fit hiker creep it up to 3808 to 3812.

 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

PSA seem to be under the impression that they have been building Lasers since 1964!

1249085269_ScreenShot2021-03-15at6_48_31PM.thumb.png.54db412b4260b85caeaf18fe35c46cef.png

Started building boats in the 1950s, under another name. 

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I actually think that's right, but it was initially Rob Mundel and John Diacopolous.     I remember the first factory in Brookvale, and a Tasar arriving there (mid 70's) but I would have been very early teens (late 60's).    So it could have easily started mid 60's.

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18 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

Here it is:

 

Is amusing to me that the nearly defunct "The Laser Class" has done such a great job promoting ILCA. ;) 

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9 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

Here it is:

 

Fascinating discussion from some of the old salts about the early days of Laser sailing and some comments from Tracy Usher about what's happening now.

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Old people talking a sport in which their prime was thirty to fifty years ago. 
virtually every position of responsibility in the ILCA is held by either the oldest person ever to hold the position or the oldest person ever to assume that position. 
 

Were we to check the age at which most of us who hold positions of responsibility in the Laser game first started running things, we would be hard pressed to find ANYONE being given similar responsibilities today. 
 

I am not unique among the regatta hosts, district secretaries, class officers, and fleet captains serving today. Many of us held national and international positions when we were in our teens and twenties. Most of us were holding positions and  hosting events when we were in our thirties.  

Forty and  fifty  years ago the “ancient” forty and fifty year olds EXPECTED the younger sailors to grow up and run things.

We did. 
 

Now there are guys in their fifties, sixties, and seventies who still haven’t bothered to train replacements. 
 

I am guilty too. The Easter Laser Regatta was my idea when I was 30. I should have found and trained a replacement host after about five years. Each year I grow further out of touch with the young sailors who should be taking over the game. 
   Maybe I will stop at fifty

 

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Maybe there is a reason for that.  Perhaps what it has become is aimed at and appeals to the old (and relatively rich) as opposed to the young (and relatively not so rich). 

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Watched a little of the video, will watch the rest later when I have time.  I was a little taken back by seeing the logo of that "other" organization, but I don't think either one was involved in the video.  To reminisce about class history, probably best to leave the last ~10 years out entirely.

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5 hours ago, torrid said:

Watched a little of the video, will watch the rest later when I have time.  I was a little taken back by seeing the logo of that "other" organization, but I don't think either one was involved in the video.  To reminisce about class history, probably best to leave the last ~10 years out entirely.

Hmmm. It would be nice to rewrite history to remove the painful episodes, but when the history of the Laser/ILCA class is written, the last 10 years or so will have to be included as they resulted in the most significant changes to the class in its 50 year history.

Future historians will probably marvel at how the class managed to survive and flourish after the turmoil of the 2010s, and will credit it to the wise and steady leadership of ILCA President Tracy Usher through those difficult times.

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Says the guy who left the class to sail an Aero LOL. 

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9 minutes ago, Wess said:

Says the guy who left the class to sail an Aero LOL. 

LOL. As you know, although I do sail a different boat these days, I do follow Laser/ILCA Class news with intense interest... in the same, nostalgic and benevolent spirit that I also follow happenings in the town where I was born and spent my childhood. I haven't lived there for over 50 years.

My connection with the town is purely online these days via a couple of Facebook groups. I have to say that the whining about how the town is not what it used to be and how it's all the fault of its elected leaders is way stronger in those groups than any criticisms of ILCA leadership on this thread. I try to inject a few positive thoughts there too - such as reminding folk how the town has some excellent graveyards and that it boasts superb connections for people who want to travel elsewhere.

I guess that's what us old folk do. Relive the past vicariously. Next week I have a Zoom meeting with a group of college friends I haven't seen in person for decades.

But in all seriousness, I think Tracy does deserve a lot of credit for his handling of the challenges faced by the Laser class in recent years.

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17 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I have to say that the whining about how the town is not what it used to be and how it's all the fault of its elected leaders is way stronger in those groups than any criticisms of ILCA leadership on this thread.

I would wager on the whole those who are still whining represent an increasingly smaller segment now as each week passes.

The class has moved on and will ultimately be stronger for the changes.  

 

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44 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I would wager on the whole those who are still whining represent an increasingly smaller segment now as each week passes.

The class has moved on and will ultimately be stronger for the changes.  

 

Let's hope so. 

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Hmmm. It would be nice to rewrite history to remove the painful episodes, but when the history of the Laser/ILCA class is written, the last 10 years or so will have to be included as they resulted in the most significant changes to the class in its 50 year history.

Future historians will probably marvel at how the class managed to survive and flourish after the turmoil of the 2010s, and will credit it to the wise and steady leadership of ILCA President Tracy Usher through those difficult times.

Thanks Tiller. I'll pass your message on to Tracy

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I would wager on the whole those who are still whining represent an increasingly smaller segment now as each week passes.

The class has moved on and will ultimately be stronger for the changes.  

 

But yet they still don’t join despite your protestations! Yea,  they love you!

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Come on Wess . Your just a little boring now . Can you at least invent a LPE/ The Laser Class sock puppet to come on and tell us how many thousands of boats they have sold and how many regattas they have run.

it least we would have something new to laugh at :D

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On 3/15/2021 at 11:49 AM, Bill5 said:

When do you think Laser discontinued being a SMOD? I recall as a kid folks taking about the Trask California boats being better.

i think we need to use 3 different categorizations:

SFOD : Single Factory One Design . Literally coming off the same production line

SMOD : Single Manufacturer One Design. Single Manufacturer. SMOD is interested in promoting the class and not seeking to build a better boat than competitor.

MMOD : Variety of manufacturers able to compete in the same market . 

Laser was only a SFOD for a brief time. Ian Bruce quickly set up regional factories.

One suspects that quality control and build control now is a lot higher standard than it was in the early pre_Olympic years.

This is now all a storm in a Tea Cup.

Introducing the Laser as an Olympic Class  was the best thing that ever happened to the Olympics.....it ushered in a democracy of Olympic sailing making sailing available to many more nations and introducing a simple boat and class that the rest of us could relate to, and that tens of thousands were already sailing. It was a revolution and a good one.   It created some of the problems that the class has inherited but boy it has been a good thing for sailing....at has created some of the legends of the sport.

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7 hours ago, tillerman said:

Hmmm. It would be nice to rewrite history to remove the painful episodes, but when the history of the Laser/ILCA class is written, the last 10 years or so will have to be included as they resulted in the most significant changes to the class in its 50 year history.

Future historians will probably marvel at how the class managed to survive and flourish after the turmoil of the 2010s, and will credit it to the wise and steady leadership of ILCA President Tracy Usher through those difficult times.

Pretend like the last ten years didn't happen?  No, certainly not.  But that video was meant to be a pleasant diversion for people stuck at home during a pandemic who can't get out to sail.  That's why I said omit the recent class history.

There are probably lessons in that video on how to move forward from the last ten years.

As for anyone who does want to dwell on the last ten years, well I think we all know exactly where to look.

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

SFOD : Single Factory One Design . Literally coming off the same production line

SMOD : Single Manufacturer One Design. Single Manufacturer. SMOD is interested in promoting the class and not seeking to build a better boat than competitor.

MMOD : Variety of manufacturers able to compete in the same market .

From the early 1970s the Laser was something else. There were multiple manufacturers in separate regions who were unable to sell their boats outside their regions. A regional SMOD or MMOD? (Not quite either in my view).

Only the recent changes has made the Laser into a true MMOD (according to EYESAILOR's definition).

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5 hours ago, Xeon said:

Come on Wess . Your just a little boring now . Can you at least invent a LPE/ The Laser Class sock puppet to come on and tell us how many thousands of boats they have sold and how many regattas they have run.

it least we would have something new to laugh at :D

Let Me Inquire

What would be the name of that sock?

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4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

One suspects that quality control and build control now is a lot higher standard than it was in the early pre_Olympic years.

This is key. Even as a SFOD in the early days there were certainly variances in specs and quality. Some of those Quebec boats were leaky messes. And one could seemingly order bespoke boats from LPE in latter years. Commitment to QC/QA by the builders along with vigorous and consistent monitoring by ILCA should create the most level playing field in terms of performance yet. I think variances between builders will be in the finish i.e. cosmetic in nature.

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8 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

From the early 1970s the Laser was something else. There were multiple manufacturers in separate regions who were unable to sell their boats outside their regions. A regional SMOD or MMOD? (Not quite either in my view).

Only the recent changes has made the Laser into a true MMOD (according to EYESAILOR's definition).

Agreed

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

This is key. Even as a SFOD in the early days there were certainly variances in specs and quality. Some of those Quebec boats were leaky messes. And one could seemingly order bespoke boats from LPE in latter years. Commitment to QC/QA by the builders along with vigorous and consistent monitoring by ILCA should create the most level playing field in terms of performance yet. I think variances between builders will be in the finish i.e. cosmetic in nature.

This is the key. If ILCA enforces strict measurement standards such that there is increasing trust in equality of performance, then ILCA will have succeeded.

Gradually the number of builders will decline as the successful builders emerge and some fall by the wayside. I speculate/guess that different builders will succeed for different reasons:

1. Dealer network and service.  Boats are sold locally. Some builders will do well because they give a good service to the better dealers

2. Cost. If all boats are viewed as equal, then a cost advantage which translates into a price advantage might capture some sales,

3. Quality of finish and reputation for quality/service.  Some builders might gain a reputation for better gelcoat finish etc and good warranty service.

The winners will probably pull together 2 of 3 of those criteria and maybe even 3 of 3.  

 

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23 minutes ago, Metoxi said:

Laser standard XD £3480 ($4846) https://www.sailandsport.co.uk/shop/laser/laser-xd-composite-upper-mast/


Ovington ILCA 7 £6850 ($9539) https://ovingtonboats.com/ilca-boat/#packages

Having no interest in class events only club racing and opens it was an easy choice, my Laser standard XD arrives next week. :)

The obvious choice. Take advantage while you can. LPE won't be around for long and those prices aren't sustainable.

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1 hour ago, Metoxi said:

Laser standard XD £3480 ($4846) https://www.sailandsport.co.uk/shop/laser/laser-xd-composite-upper-mast/


Ovington ILCA 7 £6850 ($9539) https://ovingtonboats.com/ilca-boat/#packages

Having no interest in class events only club racing and opens it was an easy choice, my Laser standard XD arrives next week. :)

Let us know if it actually arrives. Be great to see pictures, and your confirmation that it doesn't leak!

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1 hour ago, Metoxi said:

Laser standard XD £3480 ($4846) https://www.sailandsport.co.uk/shop/laser/laser-xd-composite-upper-mast/


Ovington ILCA 7 £6850 ($9539) https://ovingtonboats.com/ilca-boat/#packages

Having no interest in class events only club racing and opens it was an easy choice, my Laser standard XD arrives next week. :)

Perfect fit for purpose. Have fun!

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3 hours ago, Metoxi said:

Laser standard XD £3480 ($4846) https://www.sailandsport.co.uk/shop/laser/laser-xd-composite-upper-mast/


Ovington ILCA 7 £6850 ($9539) https://ovingtonboats.com/ilca-boat/#packages

Having no interest in class events only club racing and opens it was an easy choice, my Laser standard XD arrives next week. :)

It's good to have choices. Why pay almost twice as much if you don't plan to sail in ILCA sanctioned regattas?

It will be interesting to see how many ILCAs Ovington will be able to sell at that price.

Have fun!

 

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17 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's good to have choices. Why pay almost twice as much if you don't plan to sail in ILCA sanctioned regattas?

It will be interesting to see how many ILCAs Ovington will be able to sell at that price.

Have fun!

 

Interesting to see what the resale value will be in a few years

 

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That price is pretty close to a Topper in the UK. How can that possibly be sustainable?

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

That price is pretty close to a Topper in the UK. How can that possibly be sustainable?

The simple answer is, it isn’t . As anybody in the industry in this country will tell you . 
I have long since given up trying to work out what LPE strategy is as the last person I have had any contact with from within the factory left over a year ago. 
 

Anyway am I the only cynic on here that finds a new poster coming on posting how much cheaper a LPE boat is and saying he has bought one a little suspicious.I really hope I am wrong and he will post loads of pics of his new boat being sailed and maybe even a Bill of sale/receipt.

But at the moment the smell of Bull@@it is overpowering :D

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On 3/18/2021 at 4:46 AM, VWAP said:

Let Me Inquire

What would be the name of that sock?

Metoxi  -   Maybe ? :D

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7 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Let us know if it actually arrives. Be great to see pictures, and your confirmation that it doesn't leak!

I shared the same concern not knowing the dealer and the price being so cheap so I contacted Laser Performance who confirmed the dealer is authorised and the boats are in stock ready for delivery.

I'll send you a picture although it'll be the week after next as it's being delivered directly to my club and in England we can't get access to our clubs until the 29th.

Where on the boat should I be checking for leaks?

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15 minutes ago, Xeon said:

The simple answer is, it isn’t . As anybody in the industry in this country will tell you . 
I have long since given up trying to work out what LPE strategy is as the last person I have had any contact with from within the factory left over a year ago. 
 

Anyway am I the only cynic on here that finds a new poster coming on posting how much cheaper a LPE boat is and saying he has bought one a little suspicious.I really hope I am wrong and he will post loads of pics of his new boat being sailed and maybe even a Bill of sale/receipt.

But at the moment the smell of Bull@@it is overpowering :D

I don't blame you being cynical. :D

I've been following this thread with great interest for a few months and thought a post on my experience would generate some interest.

I will post pictures of the delivery, unpacking and first sail to address your concerns and you can come to South Cerney Sailing Club for a first hand look if you wish. :D

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

That price is pretty close to a Topper in the UK. How can that possibly be sustainable?

Good point.

At the other end of the scale, the dollar price Metoxi quotes for the Ovington ILCA is actually higher than the current list price for a new RS Aero in the US. I can't believe that is really the case.

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15 minutes ago, tillerman said:

At the other end of the scale, the dollar price Metoxi quotes for the Ovington ILCA is actually higher than the current list price for a new RS Aero in the US. I can't believe that is really the case.

I just took the UK list price in GBP then used the current XE rate so not accurate, your markets price for the equivalent ILCA boat (composite trim, no prep) is $8695.

https://westcoastsailing.net/ovington-ilca-sailboat/

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I'm quite interested to see who LP are using for their sails now, and what has been changed on their MKII compared to the class legal version

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Recent fb post from LP states 585 Lasers sold last year: https://www.facebook.com/TheLaserClass/posts/266607844903790

 

 I wonder how many ILCAs were delivered... anyone know?  I'm guessing less overall LaserLike boats than usual given the whole pandemic thing but you never know... that looks like a pretty substantial percentage of the likely total...

Cheers,

               W.

 

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9 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Recent fb post from LP states 585 Lasers sold last year: https://www.facebook.com/TheLaserClass/posts/266607844903790

 

 I wonder how many ILCAs were delivered... anyone know?  I'm guessing less overall LaserLike boats than usual given the whole pandemic thing but you never know... that looks like a pretty substantial percentage of the likely total...

Cheers,

               W.

 

The Laser Class Zoom Panel posted above a few days ago includes some remarks from Tracy Usher about new boat sales. He said they were recently running at abound 2,000 a year but lower than that in the last year or two, and they were looking to bounce back to 3,000 a year with all the pent-up demand and new builders coming on line.

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13 hours ago, Metoxi said:

only club racing and opens it was an easy choice, my Laser standard XD arrives next week. :)

You are exceedingly unlikely to be eligible for any open events run under the UKLA banner, which is nearly all of them, so lets hope if this is real you don't regret it.

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2 minutes ago, JimC said:

You are exceedingly unlikely to be eligible for any open events run under the UKLA banner, which is nearly all of them, so lets hope if this is real you don't regret it.

99% of my sailing will be on my club water, in the rare event I want to attend an open I am referring to handicap events not UKLA events.

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38 minutes ago, JimC said:

You are exceedingly unlikely to be eligible for any open events run under the UKLA banner, which is nearly all of them, so lets hope if this is real you don't regret it.

Let's face it, the number of people attending UKLA events is pretty small.  There are an awful lot more people sailing Lasers at clubs and regional events than officially sanctioned qualifiers and Nationals.

 The class association seems to have recognised that and optimised the boat for that minority (ie their members). The majority of Laser sailors just want to enjoy their boats. It appears the UKLA didn't have much relevance to them then and probably has less now. 

 As VWAP suggests, we can probably expect to see a drop in prices for used boats soon (why would you pay £4000 for a used ILCA?) but I guess the longer term will depend on whether LPE can continue in business and to what extent they can continue to undercut the ILCA builders. 

 Perhaps we'll see a boom in club/open sailing as a result of a glut of cheap used Lasers?

Cheers,

              W.

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16 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Let's face it, the number of people attending UKLA events is pretty small.  There are an awful lot more people sailing Lasers at clubs and regional events than officially sanctioned qualifiers and Nationals.

 The class association seems to have recognised that and optimised the boat for that minority (ie their members). The majority of Laser sailors just want to enjoy their boats. It appears the UKLA didn't have much relevance to them then and probably has less now. 

 As VWAP suggests, we can probably expect to see a drop in prices for used boats soon (why would you pay £4000 for a used ILCA?) but I guess the longer term will depend on whether LPE can continue in business and to what extent they can continue to undercut the ILCA builders. 

 Perhaps we'll see a boom in club/open sailing as a result of a glut of cheap used Lasers?

Cheers,

              W.

I am still surprised that LP doesnt apply to be an ILCA builder. Under FRAND, they would presumably have to be approved if their boats measured.....too much ego? 

But if Metoxi later wants to sail at an UKLCA event, and he takes his boat and has it measured ...and pays the plaque fee and the royalty fees on all his parts and joins the class association.......so assuming boat is identical and all fees paid,  will the event organizers still turn him away? (in order to discourage people buying LP boats)

When boats turn up for a little open meeting at local club on an English estuary, (not a regional UKLCA qualifier , just an open weekend) does the host club turn away two additional entries that gets them from 14 boats on the line to 16? because they are LP boats?   At that price, I think that sailors who dont want to sail the circuit, its going to be awfully tempting to just buy a Laser vs a fancy Ovington ILCA.

 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

I am still surprised that LP doesnt apply to be an ILCA builder. Under FRAND, they would presumably have to be approved if their boats measured.....too much ego? Agreed.  I'm still perplexed as to why they went that route, but agree it must be ego based.

But if Metoxi later wants to sail at an UKLCA event, and he takes his boat and has it measured ...and pays the plaque fee and the royalty fees on all his parts and joins the class association.......so assuming boat is identical and all fees paid,  will the event organizers still turn him away? (in order to discourage people buying LP boats)These items can not be handled by boat owners on the back end of a new boat transaction.  They must come from an ILCA approved builder.

When boats turn up for a little open meeting at local club on an English estuary, (not a regional UKLCA qualifier , just an open weekend) does the host club turn away two additional entries that gets them from 14 boats on the line to 16? because they are LP boats?   At that price, I think that sailors who dont want to sail the circuit, its going to be awfully tempting to just buy a Laser vs a fancy Ovington ILCA. Remains to be seen where "lines in the sand" will be drawn. I suspect that'll be a moving target based on variable factors.

 

 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

 

Im just wondering if in 3 years time, ILCA will announce some kind of amnesty for owners of LP boats to try an encourage participation.  Lest assume LP are long since filed for bankruptcy.  It would be a shame to leave several hundred boats  out in the cold

 

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8 hours ago, Metoxi said:

99% of my sailing will be on my club water, in the rare event I want to attend an open I am referring to handicap events not UKLA events.

Then remember to tell the organisers that you are not a ILCA boat and you are a Laser class boat . They might put you in with the ILCA class or they might give you a separate handicap . Have fun either way . 

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

he takes his boat and has it measured ...

(not a regional UKLCA qualifier , just an open weekend) 

Lasers aren't measured. They are warranted by the builder, hence the inspection regime that Laser Performance decided not to continue with. Even if the boat could be demonstrated to measure it would still not be a legal International (Laser). See the Etchells mess for a similar can of worms.

My little club's opens are not qualifiers but are still ILCA sanctioned events, and we have to turn away anyone who attends with replica sails (or lend them one). ILCA sanction extends much further than just the big qualifiers, every event included in one of the regional traveller series requires legal boats, and clubs want to be in the traveller series because of the increased publicity and turnout.

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4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Lest assume LP are long since filed for bankruptcy.  

Big assumption. The company currently building uninternational Lasers is not the company that lost the court case.

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8 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Let's face it, the number of people attending UKLA events is pretty small.  There are an awful lot more people sailing Lasers at clubs and regional events than officially sanctioned qualifiers and Nationals.

As noted above most club opens and regional events are part of traveller series, UKLA sanctioned and not open to replica sails. Its hardly likely they'll be open to replica boats. 

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Im just wondering if in 3 years time, ILCA will announce some kind of amnesty for owners of LP boats to try an encourage participation.  Lest assume LP are long since filed for bankruptcy.  It would be a shame to leave several hundred boats  out in the cold

Not if the ILCA boats are different - in other words - don't measure (We know this for sure because of the hull weight differences). It's clear to me that LP were deviating from the Laser Construction Manual - and additionally were not of a high build standard. Again, this was known from the number of boats returned to factory because they leaked.

It will be interesting to see if the second hand boats from the new builders are going to be sold for a higher value than the new LP boats.

I'm wondering as production ramps up, we will get to a point where supply exceeds demand - in my view we are at that point yet. When that happens (for most products) people in the supply chain are more likely take a small cut in their margin in order to secure the sale. In other words, it is my prediction that we are likely to see a lower price of boats in 2022/2023 and beyond. (Be good to revisit this in 12 or 24 months time.)

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On 3/19/2021 at 10:57 AM, WGWarburton said:

Let's face it, the number of people attending UKLA events is pretty small.  There are an awful lot more people sailing Lasers at clubs and regional events than officially sanctioned qualifiers and Nationals.

 The class association seems to have recognised that and optimised the boat for that minority (ie their members). The majority of Laser sailors just want to enjoy their boats. It appears the UKLA didn't have much relevance to them then and probably has less now. 

 As VWAP suggests, we can probably expect to see a drop in prices for used boats soon (why would you pay £4000 for a used ILCA?) but I guess the longer term will depend on whether LPE can continue in business and to what extent they can continue to undercut the ILCA builders. 

 Perhaps we'll see a boom in club/open sailing as a result of a glut of cheap used Lasers?

Cheers,

              W.

Let's hope so. Grass roots Laser sailors do more good for the sport of sailing than the Olympic Games does.

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On 3/20/2021 at 3:57 AM, WGWarburton said:

Let's face it, the number of people attending UKLA events is pretty small.  There are an awful lot more people sailing Lasers at clubs and regional events than officially sanctioned qualifiers and Nationals.

I agree with your main point, though "low" is a relative number. The numbers sailing in the UK across the board is higher than most countries - both as a proportion of the population and in real numbers.

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13 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I agree with your main point, though "low" is a relative number. The numbers sailing in the UK across the board is higher than most countries - both as a proportion of the population and in real numbers.

I agree that low is a relative number and that the numbers sailing in the UK are higher than most countries, so "small" is relatively high.

But "an awful lot more" is even higher. Relatively speaking.

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On 3/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, EYESAILOR said:

Im just wondering if in 3 years time, ILCA will announce some kind of amnesty for owners of LP boats to try an encourage participation.  Lest assume LP are long since filed for bankruptcy.  It would be a shame to leave several hundred boats  out in the cold

 

A- at face value I see your point and am a little empathetic to it.

B- IF LP, (or whatever they are calling their selves these days) goes Bankrupt is a big IF.

C- It would be too slippery of a slope IMO.  Even though my belief is those sailing that boat brand would not be your "A fleeters".

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

A- at face value I see your point and am a little empathetic to it.

B- IF LP, (or whatever they are calling their selves these days) goes Bankrupt is a big IF.

C- It would be too slippery of a slope IMO.  Even though my belief is those sailing that boat brand would not be your "A fleeters".

Maybe let them race if they pay  all the super duper super secret ILCA fees they skated on.  Oh with a super duper super secret penalty and super duper super secret  interest.

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On 3/20/2021 at 5:52 PM, Bruce Hudson said:

I agree with your main point, though "low" is a relative number. The numbers sailing in the UK across the board is higher than most countries - both as a proportion of the population and in real numbers.

Here in the USA where 350 new boats a year is an optimistic projection that’s one person in a million buying a new boat each year!!! 

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26 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Here in the USA where 350 new boats a year is an optimistic projection that’s one person in a million buying a new boat each year!!! 

That's in a country where 96% of the world's population don't reside.

Having said that, one in a million is higher than the world average, based on 2000 boats a year. 

Apparently, Lasers are in demand in the US. A sales boom?

Here's a whole article which talks up the sales in 2020:

"...70% of dealers nationwide reported increased sales this spring, according to Donahue’s group. Sales of used boats jumped 74% this year. Overall, boat sales were up 59% in May over April."

"The hottest-selling items, insiders said, have been small, towable vessels — jet-skis, kayaks, aluminum fishing boats and small sailboats."

The article concludes with a medical writer in Philly buying a 20-year-old Laser. Proof that Lasers are on the comeback? Well at least in one writer's mind in Philadelphia. 

https://www.inquirer.com/business/retail/boating-sales-shortage-virus-philadelphia-20200808.html

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On 3/19/2021 at 9:56 PM, Xeon said:

Then remember to tell the organisers that you are not a ILCA boat and you are a Laser class boat . They might put you in with the ILCA class or they might give you a separate handicap . Have fun either way . 

It's a very good point and TBH I had binned the idea of the non-ILCA boat for those reasons. :) By chance another boat I've coveted for many years came up for sale so I'm not buying anything resembling a Laser now. :huh:

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4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Currently, I am trying to figure out the necessary verbiage for the Easter Laser Regatta NOR and sailing instructions such that non-compliant boats may compete in the Regatta. 
The International Laser Class Association Constitution clearly describes the only class Legal sail insignia and some competitors, including myself, have Constitutionally non compliant sails with four ugly letters where the insignia should be displayed. 
   My plan is to either do the usual, “This modifies cite specific rule etc “  Which would be a total pain in the ass. 

or

remove all mention of the former International Laser Class Association, or kind of sailboat to be used, and simply hope nobody shows up with an AERO, Finn, or Moth attempting  to compete 

******
It certainly would be nice if someone would either form  a sailing association that actually serves the new ILCA toys or if someone would begin the process of amending the International Laser Class Constitution to accept the ILCA in its sanctioned events. 

 

Hey Gouv. Neither the Constitution nor the rules say anything about an insignia on the sail. You have to buy a sail from an approved builder and can’t add or alter. That’s it. So carry on! 
PS if you ever organize an October event when ACL is on...

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Hey Gouv. Neither the Constitution nor the rules say anything about an insignia on the sail. You have to buy a sail from an approved builder and can’t add or alter. That’s it. So carry on! 
PS if you ever organize an October event when ACL is on...

My Aero sail was bought from an approved builder. Can I sail?

 

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36 minutes ago, tillerman said:

My Aero sail was bought from an approved builder. Can I sail?

 

I am sure Gouv will let you

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Currently, I am trying to figure out the necessary verbiage for the Easter Laser Regatta NOR and sailing instructions such that non-compliant boats may compete in the Regatta. 
The International Laser Class Association Constitution clearly describes the only class Legal sail insignia and some competitors, including myself, have Constitutionally non compliant sails with four ugly letters where the insignia should be displayed. 
   My plan is to either do the usual, “This modifies cite specific rule etc “  Which would be a total pain in the ass. 

or

remove all mention of the former International Laser Class Association, or kind of sailboat to be used, and simply hope nobody shows up with an AERO, Finn, or Moth attempting  to compete 

******
It certainly would be nice if someone would either form  a sailing association that actually serves the new ILCA toys or if someone would begin the process of amending the International Laser Class Constitution to accept the ILCA in its sanctioned events. 

Be interested to hear if any LP non-compliant Kirby dinghies turn up. I am given to understand that they are pretty rare in North America.

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Currently, I am trying to figure out the necessary verbiage for the Easter Laser Regatta

Just require a World sailing issued plaque. 

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23 minutes ago, JimC said:

Just require a World sailing issued plaque. 

My RS Aero has a World Sailing plaque.
My 1995 Vanguard Laser does not have a World Sailing plaque.

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