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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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23 minutes ago, JimC said:

Just require a World sailing issued plaque. 

My RS Aero has a World Sailing plaque.
My 1995 Vanguard Laser does not have a World Sailing plaque.

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There is no simple way to describe the procedure for complying with World Sailing’s Equipment Policy. However, there is enough misinformation flying about on various forums and social media that some

hell, I'd build em

Hi Torrid, yes, it's 50year old legacy fiberglass, but there are a multitude of nuances, that Turner has alluded to in his video, that we have heard from just about everyone one of the new builders an

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On 3/29/2019 at 6:51 AM, Dave Clark said:

hell, I'd build em

Hey Dave, looks like there is still no builder in North America, and no plans in the foreseeable future. Care to revisit this? It strikes me that you are one of the few is well positioned to do this.

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

My RS Aero has a World Sailing plaque.
My 1995 Vanguard Laser does not have a World Sailing plaque.

I don’t recall voting for a name change from ISAF. All racing is void. 

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8 hours ago, Bill5 said:

 Neither the Constitution nor the rules say anything about an insignia on the sail. You have to buy a sail from an approved builder and can’t add or alter. That’s it. So carry on! 
PS if you ever organize an October event when ACL is on...

https://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/04/06/faq-6-april-2019/

Q: What about my existing sail?  Will it still be class-legal?

A: If your sail has a red or orange sail button near the tack reading “ILCA AUTHORIZED” it is legal for use in all ILCA-sanctioned events and events that use the ILCA class rules. Of course, if you still have an older class-legal sail that predates the introduction of sail buttons, that sail would still be considered class legal.

 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Cool.. page 104 of typing posts about absolutely nothing 

Red buttons, boots, hidden fees, lawnmowers, plaque nazis, music videos, notices of race, torches, insignias, grassroots... what a long strange trip it's been.

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4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Cool.. page 104 of typing posts about absolutely nothing 

Seinfeld ran for 9 seasons

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12 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I agree.

My post could have been a fitting very last post to this listing... ...but no sir, you ruined that opportunity. ;) 

Instead, we are all trapped here forever.

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25 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

My post could have been a fitting very last post to this listing... ...but no sir, you ruined that opportunity. ;) 

Instead, we are all trapped here forever.

But there are still some loose ends in the plot. Will Gouvernail ever find a way of writing a NOR that specifies what boats he wants at his regatta? Will there be any more new builders? Which of the new boats will be fastest? Will Wess really pay ILCA all the hidden fees on his new ILCA?

Inquiring minds demand to know.

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Just now, tillerman said:

But there are still some loose ends in the plot. Will Gouvernail ever find a way of writing a NOR that specifies what boats he wants at his regatta? Will there be any more new builders? Which of the new boats will be fastest? Will Wess really pay ILCA all the hidden fees on his new ILCA?

Inquiring minds demand to know.

Gouv himself just said it amounted to nothing. New builders and their performance (mostly longevity?) could have been covered in other threads...

...but Wess... yes, you are right. 

I live in a fantasy world where there is no pandemic and more sheep than humans.

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On 3/23/2021 at 1:52 PM, Metoxi said:

It's a very good point and TBH I had binned the idea of the non-ILCA boat for those reasons. :) By chance another boat I've coveted for many years came up for sale so I'm not buying anything resembling a Laser now. :huh:


That’s a shame. Good luck with what every you decide to sail.


 

Ok now that false alarm is over. Can I ask these questions again ?

Does anyone want to come on here an say they have bought a New LPE boat ?

Or even does anyone know of anyone that has bought a New LPE boat ? 
 

I really hope I get an answer before we get to page number 204 as I am not sure I have enough years left to wait that long :D

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14 hours ago, Xeon said:


That’s a shame. Good luck with what every you decide to sail.


 

Ok now that false alarm is over. Can I ask these questions again ?

Does anyone want to come on here an say they have bought a New LPE boat ?

Or even does anyone know of anyone that has bought a New LPE boat ? 
 

I really hope I get an answer before we get to page number 204 as I am not sure I have enough years left to wait that long :D

I saw a post on social media from The Sailing Inc in Ohio who has apparently sold at least 1 LPE boat to a suspecting or unsuspecting customer....Said "He's looking forward to a season of racing!"

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14 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I live in a fantasy world where there is no pandemic and more sheep than humans.

Yes, yes you do and it looks wonderful down there....

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On 3/23/2021 at 8:23 PM, Bruce Hudson said:

Hey Dave, looks like there is still no builder in North America, and no plans in the foreseeable future. Care to revisit this? It strikes me that you are one of the few is well positioned to do this.

No. 

 

 

NO.

 


Not interested at all anymore. WAY too busy building Rockets and UFOs. Get your orders in immediately. Presently we're selling delivery slots in August. Fingers crossed the last wave of capacity gains beat that back.

Fulcrum facts: Zero layoffs throughout the pandemic (in fact our staff size has grown by 60%). Company footprint up by 75%. Production volumes up by about 100%. Zero outbreaks.

DRC

Ps. Sorry for the late reply. As I said, more busy than I've ever been building Rockets and UFOs

PPS. There are six North American builders already. Performance Sailcraft Australia, Performance Sailcraft Japan, Ovington, Nautivela and Laser Performance.

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21 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

"Nothing is impossible except striking a match on a bar of soap underwater."

Nothing impossible or even difficult about accomplishing that. 

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2 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

PPS. There are several international builders supplying the North American market already. There are no builders based in North America. 

FIFY

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5 hours ago, Dave Clark said:
5 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

 


PPS. There are six North American builders already. Performance Sailcraft Australia, Performance Sailcraft Japan, Ovington, Nautivela and Laser Performance.

Err slight mistake. Laser performance is not a builder . 

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Just now, Dave Clark said:

Could have fooled me.

DRC

They are not an approved builder by ILCA so their boats built post losing their approval are illegal for class events.  Of course they can be sold to resorts as beach boats or used at your local club as long as the other members dont require class legal boats. 

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8 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Could have fooled me.

DRC

See above . Laser performance is the remains of a once great company reduced to making the odd none class legal boat . Because of one mans greed to control and maximise the profits of  the whole laser market instead of being happy with a share of both control and the market . Oh dear never mind . :(:D

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5 minutes ago, Xeon said:

See above . Laser performance is the remains of a once great company reduced to making the odd none class legal boat . Because of one mans greed to control and maximise the profits of  the whole laser market instead of being happy with a share of both control and the market . Oh dear never mind . :(:D

Dave is surely seeing this from the p.o.v. of a boatbuilder; LP are still a competitor, and apparently selling a significant number of Lasers, as well as their other boats. They may not be competing for the occasional purchase of a class-legal Laser for use in officially sanctioned regattas but that doesn't mean that they are not still a significant presence in the dinghy marketplace. 

 I would think that anyone planning to make a living selling sailing dinghies would be unwise to dismiss LP as a competitor... hence Dave's comment?

Cheers,

                W. 

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I totally agree about LP being a competitor of Dave , after all the sunfish must be the only boat LP is selling in any numbers. (Oh and maybe the collage version of the 420 )

But the original comment was a question about Dave building class legal boats and Dave mentioned a number of companies that were already serving that North American market. All Eyesailor and I was point out that LP is not a class legal builder.

 

Also re my comment of LP being the remains of a great company. It’s not that many years ago that you could go Banbury and see they had a full range of two man dinghys and cats too. How many of those are built now? I few have survived but are built by other builders. The last two man boat they had that sold in any numbers was the 2000 and they had to stop building that because they stopped paying the designer his royalties . That seems to be a recurring story lol:lol:

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26 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Dave is surely seeing this from the p.o.v. of a boatbuilder; LP are still a competitor, and apparently selling a significant number of Lasers, as well as their other boats. They may not be competing for the occasional purchase of a class-legal Laser for use in officially sanctioned regattas but that doesn't mean that they are not still a significant presence in the dinghy marketplace. 

 I would think that anyone planning to make a living selling sailing dinghies would be unwise to dismiss LP as a competitor... hence Dave's comment?

Cheers,

                W. 

Exactly. Saved me a whole punch of typing. Thanks, W

DRC

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17 minutes ago, Xeon said:

I totally agree about LP being a competitor of Dave , after all the sunfish must be the only boat LP is selling in any numbers. (Oh and maybe the collage version of the 420 )

But the original comment was a question about Dave building class legal boats and Dave mentioned a number of companies that were already serving that North American market. All Eyesailor and I was point out that LP is not a class legal builder.

 

Also re my comment of LP being the remains of a great company. It’s not that many years ago that you could go Banbury and see they had a full range of two man dinghys and cats too. How many of those are built now? I few have survived but are built by other builders. The last two man boat they had that sold in any numbers was the 2000 and they had to stop building that because they stopped paying the designer his royalties . That seems to be a recurring story lol:lol:

 I think they sell a fair number of Bahias & Picos (even Bugs?) to clubs & centres... those same clubs and centres might see little point in spending the extra for ILCAs over Lasers.   It makes them a significant presence in the market and those bread-and-butter sales will be eating into any potential or existing ILCA builders turnover.

 We don't yet know how the market is going to play out but ILCAs may well end up being a relatively expensive boutique brand for the small number of participants in "elite" events (youths, masters, internationals).

That would be disappointing.

Cheers,

              W.

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People keep saying LP are selling a significant number of Lasers. 
 

As I keep asking , where are they ? 
 

No one seems to know any one that bought one. If they were being sold to holiday companies and sailing school schools someone should have seen one even in the worrying times we live in . Also why aren’t we seeing these boats hitting the second hand market .

 

I am not asking for hard facts ( that would be too much to ask for ) just for a single sighting of the ‘ significant’  number of boats . :D

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4 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

 

We don't yet know how the market is going to play out but ILCAs may well end up being a relatively expensive boutique brand for the small number of participants in "elite" events (youths, masters, internationals).

That would be disappointing.

Cheers,

              W.

I think it's inevitable that ILCAs will be bought by the top sailors who want to compete in the ILCA sanctioned events.

People who just want a boat for the lake house, or to sail in local clubs and local regattas will buy Lasers (or used ILCAs) and have a few thousand left over for beer.

Why is that "disappointing"? You don't like the idea of grassroots sailors having more money for beer?

And the number of people who sail in ILCA events is not "small." Thousands of sailors are ILCA class members.

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48 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I think it's inevitable that ILCAs will be bought by the top sailors who want to compete in the ILCA sanctioned events.

People who just want a boat for the lake house, or to sail in local clubs and local regattas will buy Lasers (or used ILCAs) and have a few thousand left over for beer.

Why is that "disappointing"? You don't like the idea of grassroots sailors having more money for beer?

And the number of people who sail in ILCA events is not "small." Thousands of sailors are ILCA class members.

Starry-eyed parents will buy ILCAs for their competitive kids. Old guys at the club level will either by Lasers or used ILCAs. Some will buy new ILCA’s (like rich We$$) and never leave their own club. So three options for the grass roots crowd. And a few options if they go new. It has never been better. 

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Starry-eyed parents will buy ILCAs for their competitive kids. Old guys at the club level will either by Lasers or used ILCAs. Some will buy new ILCA’s (like rich We$$) and never leave their own club. So three options for the grass roots crowd. And a few options if they go new. It has never been better. 

For the vast majority of the world, buying an LP Laser is not an option as they are not available.

Incidentally, it has been my observation that most of the new boats in NZ are bought by master sailors to race in ILCA sanctioned events.

In the US, the only new LP boats I saw were bought by an institution at a discounted rate, and had Intensity sails.

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4 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Incidentally, it has been my observation that most of the new boats in NZ are bought by master sailors to race in ILCA sanctioned events.

In the US, the only new LP boats I saw were bought by an institution at a discounted rate, and had Intensity sails.

So? 

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4 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

So? 

In my view, there is a gulf between what Bill claimed, and the reality for most of the world.

What you quoted was incidental to my main point, and further highlighted that gulf.

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13 hours ago, Xeon said:

People keep saying LP are selling a significant number of Lasers. 

As I keep asking , where are they ? 
 

No one seems to know any one that bought one. If they were being sold to holiday companies and sailing school schools someone should have seen one even in the worrying times we live in . Also why aren’t we seeing these boats hitting the second hand market .

The 'Holiday' companies are unlikely to buy (LP) Lasers right now for financial reasons.

My heart goes out to those companies because almost no has been able to go to those places (Sailing Minorca, Wildwinds etc.) the last year or so.

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On 3/26/2021 at 6:30 AM, Xeon said:

I totally agree about LP being a competitor of Dave , after all the sunfish must be the only boat LP is selling in any numbers. (Oh and maybe the collage version of the 420 )

But the original comment was a question about Dave building class legal boats and Dave mentioned a number of companies that were already serving that North American market. All Eyesailor and I was point out that LP is not a class legal builder.

 

Also re my comment of LP being the remains of a great company. It’s not that many years ago that you could go Banbury and see they had a full range of two man dinghys and cats too. How many of those are built now? I few have survived but are built by other builders. The last two man boat they had that sold in any numbers was the 2000 and they had to stop building that because they stopped paying the designer his royalties . That seems to be a recurring story lol:lol:

Most of you will recall that LP in the USA is the company that Dave's father co-owned.

It was called Vanguard Boats and built the Laser, Sunfish and launched the very successful Vanguard 15. They sold it to Rastegaar. 

So Dave and Steve knows something about building Lasers.

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Layman coming in on all this but at a guess, where can we envisage this will all end up in the end. 
been out of Lasers for a while and planning a return but wasn’t expecting to see all this...

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1 hour ago, Popeye_ali said:

Just put a order in for a new “the laser class” boat and couldn’t be happier. 

Good for you , hope it all goes well. We all look forward to pictures of you picking it up and sailing it at your local club. 
 

Otherwise the more suspicious among us might just think you are yet another LPE troll/plant :D

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2 hours ago, Andy B said:

I found this yesterday, another outlet in the UK for LPE Laser boats for club sailors, seems to be a good price at £3750 all in, apparently ex stock and they say they also have class compliant sails and spars.

https://www.phoenixmarine.co.uk/news-new_boats.html

Keep lowering the price until you get buyers I guess.....Apparently no bites up till this point?

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On 4/12/2021 at 7:50 PM, Andy B said:

I found this yesterday, another outlet in the UK for LPE Laser boats for club sailors, seems to be a good price at £3750 all in, apparently ex stock and they say they also have class compliant sails and spars.

https://www.phoenixmarine.co.uk/news-new_boats.html

Really? Yes, I know it is genuine but this newbie is rather suspect. Consider the 4 posts he has made - promoting LPE products, throwing shade at competitors and an attempt to make LPE look good. Just a "concerned citizen"?:D 

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