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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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21 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

"Nothing is impossible except striking a match on a bar of soap underwater."

Nothing impossible or even difficult about accomplishing that. 

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2 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

PPS. There are several international builders supplying the North American market already. There are no builders based in North America. 

FIFY

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5 hours ago, Dave Clark said:
5 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

 


PPS. There are six North American builders already. Performance Sailcraft Australia, Performance Sailcraft Japan, Ovington, Nautivela and Laser Performance.

Err slight mistake. Laser performance is not a builder . 

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Just now, Dave Clark said:

Could have fooled me.

DRC

They are not an approved builder by ILCA so their boats built post losing their approval are illegal for class events.  Of course they can be sold to resorts as beach boats or used at your local club as long as the other members dont require class legal boats. 

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8 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Could have fooled me.

DRC

See above . Laser performance is the remains of a once great company reduced to making the odd none class legal boat . Because of one mans greed to control and maximise the profits of  the whole laser market instead of being happy with a share of both control and the market . Oh dear never mind . :(:D

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5 minutes ago, Xeon said:

See above . Laser performance is the remains of a once great company reduced to making the odd none class legal boat . Because of one mans greed to control and maximise the profits of  the whole laser market instead of being happy with a share of both control and the market . Oh dear never mind . :(:D

Dave is surely seeing this from the p.o.v. of a boatbuilder; LP are still a competitor, and apparently selling a significant number of Lasers, as well as their other boats. They may not be competing for the occasional purchase of a class-legal Laser for use in officially sanctioned regattas but that doesn't mean that they are not still a significant presence in the dinghy marketplace. 

 I would think that anyone planning to make a living selling sailing dinghies would be unwise to dismiss LP as a competitor... hence Dave's comment?

Cheers,

                W. 

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I totally agree about LP being a competitor of Dave , after all the sunfish must be the only boat LP is selling in any numbers. (Oh and maybe the collage version of the 420 )

But the original comment was a question about Dave building class legal boats and Dave mentioned a number of companies that were already serving that North American market. All Eyesailor and I was point out that LP is not a class legal builder.

 

Also re my comment of LP being the remains of a great company. It’s not that many years ago that you could go Banbury and see they had a full range of two man dinghys and cats too. How many of those are built now? I few have survived but are built by other builders. The last two man boat they had that sold in any numbers was the 2000 and they had to stop building that because they stopped paying the designer his royalties . That seems to be a recurring story lol:lol:

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26 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Dave is surely seeing this from the p.o.v. of a boatbuilder; LP are still a competitor, and apparently selling a significant number of Lasers, as well as their other boats. They may not be competing for the occasional purchase of a class-legal Laser for use in officially sanctioned regattas but that doesn't mean that they are not still a significant presence in the dinghy marketplace. 

 I would think that anyone planning to make a living selling sailing dinghies would be unwise to dismiss LP as a competitor... hence Dave's comment?

Cheers,

                W. 

Exactly. Saved me a whole punch of typing. Thanks, W

DRC

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17 minutes ago, Xeon said:

I totally agree about LP being a competitor of Dave , after all the sunfish must be the only boat LP is selling in any numbers. (Oh and maybe the collage version of the 420 )

But the original comment was a question about Dave building class legal boats and Dave mentioned a number of companies that were already serving that North American market. All Eyesailor and I was point out that LP is not a class legal builder.

 

Also re my comment of LP being the remains of a great company. It’s not that many years ago that you could go Banbury and see they had a full range of two man dinghys and cats too. How many of those are built now? I few have survived but are built by other builders. The last two man boat they had that sold in any numbers was the 2000 and they had to stop building that because they stopped paying the designer his royalties . That seems to be a recurring story lol:lol:

 I think they sell a fair number of Bahias & Picos (even Bugs?) to clubs & centres... those same clubs and centres might see little point in spending the extra for ILCAs over Lasers.   It makes them a significant presence in the market and those bread-and-butter sales will be eating into any potential or existing ILCA builders turnover.

 We don't yet know how the market is going to play out but ILCAs may well end up being a relatively expensive boutique brand for the small number of participants in "elite" events (youths, masters, internationals).

That would be disappointing.

Cheers,

              W.

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People keep saying LP are selling a significant number of Lasers. 
 

As I keep asking , where are they ? 
 

No one seems to know any one that bought one. If they were being sold to holiday companies and sailing school schools someone should have seen one even in the worrying times we live in . Also why aren’t we seeing these boats hitting the second hand market .

 

I am not asking for hard facts ( that would be too much to ask for ) just for a single sighting of the ‘ significant’  number of boats . :D

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4 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

 

We don't yet know how the market is going to play out but ILCAs may well end up being a relatively expensive boutique brand for the small number of participants in "elite" events (youths, masters, internationals).

That would be disappointing.

Cheers,

              W.

I think it's inevitable that ILCAs will be bought by the top sailors who want to compete in the ILCA sanctioned events.

People who just want a boat for the lake house, or to sail in local clubs and local regattas will buy Lasers (or used ILCAs) and have a few thousand left over for beer.

Why is that "disappointing"? You don't like the idea of grassroots sailors having more money for beer?

And the number of people who sail in ILCA events is not "small." Thousands of sailors are ILCA class members.

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48 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I think it's inevitable that ILCAs will be bought by the top sailors who want to compete in the ILCA sanctioned events.

People who just want a boat for the lake house, or to sail in local clubs and local regattas will buy Lasers (or used ILCAs) and have a few thousand left over for beer.

Why is that "disappointing"? You don't like the idea of grassroots sailors having more money for beer?

And the number of people who sail in ILCA events is not "small." Thousands of sailors are ILCA class members.

Starry-eyed parents will buy ILCAs for their competitive kids. Old guys at the club level will either by Lasers or used ILCAs. Some will buy new ILCA’s (like rich We$$) and never leave their own club. So three options for the grass roots crowd. And a few options if they go new. It has never been better. 

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Starry-eyed parents will buy ILCAs for their competitive kids. Old guys at the club level will either by Lasers or used ILCAs. Some will buy new ILCA’s (like rich We$$) and never leave their own club. So three options for the grass roots crowd. And a few options if they go new. It has never been better. 

For the vast majority of the world, buying an LP Laser is not an option as they are not available.

Incidentally, it has been my observation that most of the new boats in NZ are bought by master sailors to race in ILCA sanctioned events.

In the US, the only new LP boats I saw were bought by an institution at a discounted rate, and had Intensity sails.

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4 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

So? 

In my view, there is a gulf between what Bill claimed, and the reality for most of the world.

What you quoted was incidental to my main point, and further highlighted that gulf.

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13 hours ago, Xeon said:

People keep saying LP are selling a significant number of Lasers. 

As I keep asking , where are they ? 
 

No one seems to know any one that bought one. If they were being sold to holiday companies and sailing school schools someone should have seen one even in the worrying times we live in . Also why aren’t we seeing these boats hitting the second hand market .

The 'Holiday' companies are unlikely to buy (LP) Lasers right now for financial reasons.

My heart goes out to those companies because almost no has been able to go to those places (Sailing Minorca, Wildwinds etc.) the last year or so.

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On 3/26/2021 at 6:30 AM, Xeon said:

I totally agree about LP being a competitor of Dave , after all the sunfish must be the only boat LP is selling in any numbers. (Oh and maybe the collage version of the 420 )

But the original comment was a question about Dave building class legal boats and Dave mentioned a number of companies that were already serving that North American market. All Eyesailor and I was point out that LP is not a class legal builder.

 

Also re my comment of LP being the remains of a great company. It’s not that many years ago that you could go Banbury and see they had a full range of two man dinghys and cats too. How many of those are built now? I few have survived but are built by other builders. The last two man boat they had that sold in any numbers was the 2000 and they had to stop building that because they stopped paying the designer his royalties . That seems to be a recurring story lol:lol:

Most of you will recall that LP in the USA is the company that Dave's father co-owned.

It was called Vanguard Boats and built the Laser, Sunfish and launched the very successful Vanguard 15. They sold it to Rastegaar. 

So Dave and Steve knows something about building Lasers.

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Layman coming in on all this but at a guess, where can we envisage this will all end up in the end. 
been out of Lasers for a while and planning a return but wasn’t expecting to see all this...

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1 hour ago, Popeye_ali said:

Just put a order in for a new “the laser class” boat and couldn’t be happier. 

Good for you , hope it all goes well. We all look forward to pictures of you picking it up and sailing it at your local club. 
 

Otherwise the more suspicious among us might just think you are yet another LPE troll/plant :D

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2 hours ago, Andy B said:

I found this yesterday, another outlet in the UK for LPE Laser boats for club sailors, seems to be a good price at £3750 all in, apparently ex stock and they say they also have class compliant sails and spars.

https://www.phoenixmarine.co.uk/news-new_boats.html

Keep lowering the price until you get buyers I guess.....Apparently no bites up till this point?

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On 4/12/2021 at 7:50 PM, Andy B said:

I found this yesterday, another outlet in the UK for LPE Laser boats for club sailors, seems to be a good price at £3750 all in, apparently ex stock and they say they also have class compliant sails and spars.

https://www.phoenixmarine.co.uk/news-new_boats.html

Really? Yes, I know it is genuine but this newbie is rather suspect. Consider the 4 posts he has made - promoting LPE products, throwing shade at competitors and an attempt to make LPE look good. Just a "concerned citizen"?:D 

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The good ol LPE "Class Compliant" instead of "Class Legal" would catch a few people out also, that is if they're actually referring to the International "Class"

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Can anyone verify Sailing Inc in Cleveland has sold "quite a few" LPE's in the last 6 months or so?  I know of one.  No animosity just genuinely curious.  

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On 4/14/2021 at 3:30 AM, SimonN said:

Really? Yes, I know it is genuine but this newbie is rather suspect. Consider the 4 posts he has made - promoting LPE products, throwing shade at competitors and an attempt to make LPE look good. Just a "concerned citizen"?:D 

All my posts are simply factual and point out how the costs have spiralled out of control now we have the FRAND arrangements and one does not even refer to the Laser but to the construction of a competitors boat. I have been sailing Lasers for 35 years and have no connections with LPE except that I have bought many new boats from them, always at a competitive price and I have never had any problems with the equipment they have provided. My concern is that ILCA are pricing the Laser out of the market because my last boat was £4k cheaper than the alternative classes, an ILCA is now be slightly more than some of the other choices so why are sailors going to pay more money for 1960's technology when there are better boats available. At the Olympic trials the sailors wanted an alternative boat to the Laser and we can expect the sailors to lobby for change in 2028.

My worry is the Laser will will die as and become another obsolete Olympic Class with minority appeal rather than a mass market fun boat for everyone to have fantastic sailing. During lockdown one I read an article by Gilles Gluck posted on the front page of the French web site, it is very very long and very descriptive but some of the basic points and comparisons are quite relevant as he demonstrates how other classes and products have come and gone. I do hope he is wrong and the Laser is not at the end of its product life cycle. Perhaps things will change to bring back mass market appeal such as Zim starting to import at a price to compete with LPE, of course if LPE survive.

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1 hour ago, Andy B said:

All my posts are simply factual and point out how the costs have spiralled out of control now we have the FRAND arrangements

Have the costs spiralled? I'm not at all sure they have. Current LPE prices just reflect the 'shall we politely say aggressive discounting' that dates back to when they started their war with the CA. That discounting only ever applied to unregistered boats. I'm not sure that the current prices are much out of line with what LPE were charging for International Lasers when they were still selling them. So its ironic that this heavy discounting only exists because of the war with the CA that ended up with FRAND and opening the class to multiple builders.

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2 hours ago, Andy B said:

My worry is the Laser will will die as and become another obsolete Olympic Class with minority appeal rather than a mass market fun boat for everyone to have fantastic sailing.

I don't think globally the ILCA boat has anything to worry about however in the UK the price has narrowed with the Aero and there are noticeably more Aeros in the results now.

I was very close to buying an XD composite top LPE boat at a Dinghy show price of £3500 however on talking to local clubs there was confusion over the current situation, how to handicap it and concerns of being stuck with an obsolete boat so decided against it.

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47 minutes ago, Metoxi said:

I don't think globally the ILCA boat has anything to worry about however in the UK the price has narrowed with the Aero and there are noticeably more Aeros in the results now.

I was very close to buying an XD composite top LPE boat at a Dinghy show price of £3500 however on talking to local clubs there was confusion over the current situation, how to handicap it and concerns of being stuck with an obsolete boat so decided against it.

What's the rest of the story? Did you buy an ILCA?

 

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What's the rest of the story? Did you buy an ILCA?

 

A new ILCA was out of my budget (£4.5k), all of the 2nd hand ones within budget were not in great condition however during my search a very nice RS300 came up for sale. Always had my eye on one but not many come up for sale so this was too good an opportunity to pass up. I'm getting very familiar with the underneath of it, hence my avatar. :)

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Oye, trying to catch up and have to laugh at you folk thinking anyone not wanting to pay ILCA inflated prices is a troll or plant.  Are you really that delusional?  You do realize its a fact that the majority of Laser sailors don't join ILCA right?  Its you plaque nazis that are the plants!

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1 hour ago, Metoxi said:

A new ILCA was out of my budget (£4.5k), all of the 2nd hand ones within budget were not in great condition however during my search a very nice RS300 came up for sale. Always had my eye on one but not many come up for sale so this was too good an opportunity to pass up. I'm getting very familiar with the underneath of it, hence my avatar. :)

Brilliant. I am a great admirer of RS300 sailors. Used to enjoy following this RS300 blogger but he hasn't posted for a few months.

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2 hours ago, Metoxi said:

A new ILCA was out of my budget (£4.5k), all of the 2nd hand ones within budget were not in great condition however during my search a very nice RS300 came up for sale. Always had my eye on one but not many come up for sale so this was too good an opportunity to pass up. I'm getting very familiar with the underneath of it, hence my avatar. :)

Good for you, they are great boats but tricky to sail. People that master them tend to stay with them , but most sailors have to put up with a steep learning curve in the first few months .:D

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5 hours ago, JimC said:

Have the costs spiralled? I'm not at all sure they have. Current LPE prices just reflect the 'shall we politely say aggressive discounting' that dates back to when they started their war with the CA. That discounting only ever applied to unregistered boats. I'm not sure that the current prices are much out of line with what LPE were charging for International Lasers when they were still selling them. So its ironic that this heavy discounting only exists because of the war with the CA that ended up with FRAND and opening the class to multiple builders.

Spot on . Totally agree. 

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7 hours ago, Andy B said:

My worry is the Laser will will die as and become another obsolete Olympic Class with minority appeal rather than a mass market fun boat for everyone to have fantastic sailing. 

I think boats that have suffered this fate in the past were fairly low in numbers to begin with?  Hard to imagine 200,000+ ILCA's going away.  That said I'm sure Sears and kmart thought the same thing some years ago.

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10 hours ago, Andy B said:

My worry is the Laser will will die as and become another obsolete Olympic Class with minority appeal rather than a mass market fun boat for everyone to have fantastic sailing. 

:lol:

Obsolete Olympic class like the Star? or, perhaps Firefly?

The Laser / ILCA was a great class long before it became Olympic and will remain a great class long after it stops being in the Olympics.

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On 4/15/2021 at 4:53 AM, Andy B said:

All my posts are simply factual and point out how the costs have spiralled out of control now we have the FRAND arrangements and one does not even refer to the Laser but to the construction of a competitors boat. I have been sailing Lasers for 35 years and have no connections with LPE except that I have bought many new boats from them, always at a competitive price and I have never had any problems with the equipment they have provided. My concern is that ILCA are pricing the Laser out of the market because my last boat was £4k cheaper than the alternative classes, an ILCA is now be slightly more than some of the other choices so why are sailors going to pay more money for 1960's technology when there are better boats available. At the Olympic trials the sailors wanted an alternative boat to the Laser and we can expect the sailors to lobby for change in 2028.

My worry is the Laser will will die as and become another obsolete Olympic Class with minority appeal rather than a mass market fun boat for everyone to have fantastic sailing. 

The high price of ILCA boats may well encourage potential new boat buyers to consider other classes at similar or lower price points, but Laser sailing will survive at the grassroots level for many years. 200,000+ Lasers are not going to disappear overnight.

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I don’t understand anyone’s concern for club level sailing. 
what’s the worst case scenario, the ILCA’s have to sign on as ILCA’s and the “The laser class” boats have to sign on as lasers. 
ultimately you are still racing each other!

at my club there is a mixture of people using third party sails like P&B or Rooster. 
they all measure the same and are essentially the exact same without the “Colored button”. 

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On 4/15/2021 at 5:42 PM, RobbieB said:

Hard to imagine 200,000+ ILCA's going away.

200,000 Lasers and hardly any ILCAS if you want to be specific. 
Many of those built by Laser performance in the UK. 

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44 minutes ago, Popeye_ali said:

217,000 Lasers approved by ILCA if you want to be specific. 
A couple of thousand ILCA dinghies built by a number of builders around the world.
A few non ILCA approved Lasers built by an unknown entity associated with what used to be Laser Performance in the UK.

FIFY

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9 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

FIFY

Well this contradicts what most say as many are of the opinion Laser performance are selling off old stock so these new boats are from before all this nonsense....

Also if Laser Performance have been building non compliant boats and inspections weren’t happening then many people sailing ISAF registered boats should have their results revoked and their plaques stripped! Hilarious 

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1 hour ago, Popeye_ali said:

Well this contradicts what most say as many are of the opinion Laser performance are selling off old stock so these new boats are from before all this nonsense....

Also if Laser Performance have been building non compliant boats and inspections weren’t happening then many people sailing ISAF registered boats should have their results revoked and their plaques stripped! Hilarious 

Old stock? You mean the ones with plaques?

I'm unaware of results being revoked and plaques being stripped. Finding the misfortune of others speaks volumes about the character you want us all to believe you are. Well done!

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17 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Old stock? You mean the ones with plaques?

I'm unaware of results being revoked and plaques being stripped. Finding the misfortune of others speaks volumes about the character you want us all to believe you are. Well done!

Sorry I am not following. I am saying that others sailing Lasers that were built over a year to two years ago by Laser performance before this started and have the ISAF plaque, that can be used at events people may well have concerns if those now believe the so called new ones are not what they should be. Especially if Laser performance have not been making boats since their license was revoked..

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35 minutes ago, Popeye_ali said:

Sorry I am not following. I am saying that others sailing Lasers that were built over a year to two years ago by Laser performance before this started and have the ISAF plaque, that can be used at events people may well have concerns if those now believe the so called new ones are not what they should be. Especially if Laser performance have not been making boats since their license was revoked..

Yes, I agree, you are saying that.

The rules are straight-forward, and they are not needed to be explained here.

Any concerns are fast fading, as new boats replace the old Laser Performance ones.

Oceania and Australian Laser Masters Championship to go ahead despite  COVID-19 – Live Sail Die

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On 4/15/2021 at 12:42 PM, RobbieB said:

I think boats that have suffered this fate in the past were fairly low in numbers to begin with?  Hard to imagine 200,000+ ILCA's going away.  That said I'm sure Sears and kmart thought the same thing some years ago.

Is that last remaining Blockbuster in Oregon still open?

5b69ada38ea82faf108b47a1.jpg.899144f613c5df72154a83eb07f9826d.jpg
 

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On 4/18/2021 at 3:37 AM, Popeye_ali said:

Many of those built by Laser performance in the UK. 

True but with A WS plaque they are ILCA class legal.  Same with "Laser".  That's a good reason to own a boat before this all went down.  You can be bi-classual 

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On 4/18/2021 at 4:34 AM, Popeye_ali said:

inspections weren’t happening 

There's one of the main issues amigo that cost LPE the ball game. 

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11 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

True but with A WS plaque they are ILCA class legal.  Same with "Laser".  That's a good reason to own a boat before this all went down.  You can be bi-classual 

804801858_ilcasailsandothersails.thumb.jpg.8a5ae5b8f08aca4beef0dfef1bddcb38.jpg

Biclassual? 

ILCAs and Lasers and boats that look like Lasers but don't have legal sails and... WTF is that RS Aero doing there?

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44 minutes ago, tillerman said:

804801858_ilcasailsandothersails.thumb.jpg.8a5ae5b8f08aca4beef0dfef1bddcb38.jpg

Biclassual? 

ILCAs and Lasers and boats that look like Lasers but don't have legal sails and... WTF is that RS Aero doing there?

Frostbite [Laser/Aero]

Read the Notice of Race

 

1.4 For RS Aeros, the rules of the RS Aero Class Association will apply. For Lasers, the Rules
of the ILCA will apply, except as follows
■ Any class legal or non class legal sail that is built according to the ILCA
handbook and builders manual may be used. The sail must be made of Dacron, mass produced
and readily available.
■ Any class legal or non class legal hull that is built according to the ILCA
handbook and builders manual may be used. The hull must be mass produced and readily
available.
 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

WTF is that RS Aero doing there?

Picking the left side.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

804801858_ilcasailsandothersails.thumb.jpg.8a5ae5b8f08aca4beef0dfef1bddcb38.jpg

Biclassual? 

ILCAs and Lasers and boats that look like Lasers but don't have legal sails and... WTF is that RS Aero doing there?

I think that might qualify for Panclassual, but I'm getting a little out of my element here....

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53 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I think that might qualify for Panclassual, but I'm getting a little out of my element here....

Or is it Transclassual?

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I think that might qualify for Panclassual, but I'm getting a little out of my element here....

Someone has been listening to NPR too much? (Maybe you have. I certainly have). It is hard to escape the isms at this time.

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5 hours ago, VWAP said:

For Lasers, the Rules
of the ILCA will apply, except as follows
■ Any class legal or non class legal sail that is built according to the ILCA
handbook and builders manual may be used. The sail must be made of Dacron, mass produced
and readily available.
■ Any class legal or non class legal hull that is built according to the ILCA
handbook and builders manual may be used. The hull must be mass produced and readily
available.
 

Seems like a good formula for most grassroots Laser racing

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I personally think the “the laser class” will take off and evolve to a point. 
The cost of the boats by comparison to ILCS new will incentivise club sailers to go this route. 
My club is a classic example. We have about 35 lasers/ILCA’s, only a handful use the genuine sails. Most are using third parties like Rooster and P&B. 
and why not if they measure the same, made using the same materials and ultimately are the same! Why would any club sailer who has no interest in circuit racing want to spend roughly £150 extra for what is effectively the same sail without a little plastic button.

Having a “the laser class” boat, is no different to those using third party anything. 
Also I guarantee resale value given that 90% of sailers are club sailers and not circuit sailers would rather have a newer boat than an older one that is registered if it makes no odds to them and their sailing. 
 

just my opinion obviously Ha

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1 hour ago, Popeye_ali said:

I personally think the “the laser class” will take off and evolve to a point. 
The cost of the boats by comparison to ILCS new will incentivise club sailers to go this route. 
My club is a classic example. We have about 35 lasers/ILCA’s, only a handful use the genuine sails. Most are using third parties like Rooster and P&B. 
and why not if they measure the same, made using the same materials and ultimately are the same! Why would any club sailer who has no interest in circuit racing want to spend roughly £150 extra for what is effectively the same sail without a little plastic button.

Having a “the laser class” boat, is no different to those using third party anything. 
Also I guarantee resale value given that 90% of sailers are club sailers and not circuit sailers would rather have a newer boat than an older one that is registered if it makes no odds to them and their sailing. 
 

just my opinion obviously Ha

Are you saying LP has been ripping us off all this years?

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8 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Are you saying LP has been ripping us off all this years?

Obviously royalty’s had a role but they now have to market themselves slightly differently and there needs to be an incentive. 
Obviously they have held their moulds for many years and will be long since paid for unlike new builders...

I doubt they are making new boats at a loss... 

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2 hours ago, Popeye_ali said:

I personally think the “the laser class” will take off and evolve to a point. 
The cost of the boats by comparison to ILCS new will incentivise club sailers to go this route. 
My club is a classic example. We have about 35 lasers/ILCA’s, only a handful use the genuine sails. Most are using third parties like Rooster and P&B. 
and why not if they measure the same, made using the same materials and ultimately are the same! Why would any club sailer who has no interest in circuit racing want to spend roughly £150 extra for what is effectively the same sail without a little plastic button.

Having a “the laser class” boat, is no different to those using third party anything. 
Also I guarantee resale value given that 90% of sailers are club sailers and not circuit sailers would rather have a newer boat than an older one that is registered if it makes no odds to them and their sailing. 
 

just my opinion obviously Ha

I can't see TLC taking off as a true international class, they couldn't even get their act together to get past the first hurdle of WS approval.  They'll hang around as a local European thing as long as LP keeps funding them

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15 hours ago, Popeye_ali said:

I personally think the “the laser class” will take off and evolve to a point. 

Unclear how you think the LP Laser will "evolve to a point". I guess if the LP Laser becomes a "point" then it will no longer be a Laser.

In a couple of years, buyers will be deciding between second hand ILCAs, and LP Lasers. That surely must pose a problem for Rastegar.

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14 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Are you saying LP has been ripping us off all this years?

Or one could say the class (ILCA) has been ripping you off for years.  To the tunes of $1000s.

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58 minutes ago, Wess said:

Or one could say the class (ILCA) has been ripping you off for years.  To the tunes of $1000s.

One thinks that all the money one spent on Laser sailing over 30+years was worth every penny.

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Unclear how you think the LP Laser will "evolve to a point". I guess if the LP Laser becomes a "point" then it will no longer be a Laser.

In a couple of years, buyers will be deciding between second hand ILCAs, and LP Lasers. That surely must pose a problem for Rastegar.

I say point as I believe sailings schools and club sailers will be more invested in “LP” and those in youth squads and circuit sailers and people who are circuit racers will stay ILCA. The majority of sailers in general are club sailers. 
I think more events will adopt the philosophy like the post earlier showing an event where they were mixed but everything had to follow the same build manual. see below. 
 

Notice of Race

 

1.4 For RS Aeros, the rules of the RS Aero Class Association will apply. For Lasers, the Rules
of the ILCA will apply, except as follows
■ Any class legal or non class legal sail that is built according to the ILCA
handbook and builders manual may be used. The sail must be made of Dacron, mass produced
and readily available.
■ Any class legal or non class legal hull that is built according to the ILCA
handbook and builders manual may be used. The hull must be mass produced and readily
available.

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13 minutes ago, tillerman said:

One thinks that all the money one spent on Laser sailing over 30+years was worth every penny.

One might think that if that was true you would still be sailing an ILCA instead of switching out to the Aero.  B)

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Or one could say the class (ILCA) has been ripping you off for years.  To the tunes of $1000s.

Come on, you know the fees were a lot less than the difference from their former to their current prices...

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Fess alone yes I agree that is l likely less (just) than $1000.  But all the changes (that have not made the sailing or racing any better) that ILCA has foisted onto the boat and class such that you need to spend $1000s to make an older used boat come up to the same standard... what a rip off.  Big bucks and just another way for the ILCA to play pick-pocket for no benefit.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

One might think that if that was true you would still be sailing an ILCA instead of switching out to the Aero.  B)

One's decision to move up from the Laser to the RS Aero was driven by one's assessment of the superior design and quality of the RS Aero and one's subjective impressions of the greater excitement of sailing an RS Aero. The overall costs of sailing the two boats taking into account durability of sails, spars etc. is so similar as not to be a factor in one's decision.

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50 minutes ago, Wess said:

Fess alone yes I agree that is l likely less (just) than $1000.  But all the changes (that have not made the sailing or racing any better) that ILCA has foisted onto the boat and class such that you need to spend $1000s to make an older used boat come up to the same standard... what a rip off.  Big bucks and just another way for the ILCA to play pick-pocket for no benefit.

Well, I am just about through watching reruns of The Office for the third time. I guess diving into this for the 5th time isn’t offside, I just blame it on COVID boredom.

We have established that a quality domestic sailmaker would charge at least as much on the new sail. The intro of other bits - all of which were introduced pre-FRAND - have all inured to the benefit of manufacturers such as Harken. So you remain dead wrong on this issue vis a vis ILCA getting rich.  Which of the “foisted” changes could you do without? Which were not part of a durability initiative? I Ithink the vang is over the top, but not the rest. And you don’t need a carbon top to compete. List them and tell us your beef. And I know you won’t - reruns stay the same. 

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On 4/20/2021 at 9:59 AM, tillerman said:

One's decision to move up from the Laser to the RS Aero was driven by one's assessment of the superior design and quality of the RS Aero and one's subjective impressions of the greater excitement of sailing an RS Aero. The overall costs of sailing the two boats taking into account durability of sails, spars etc. is so similar as not to be a factor in one's decision.

So we would agree on all the facts. Compared to the ILCA, the Aero is a better design and better quality.  The Aero compared to the ILCA is a better build and as proven in the Olympic singlehanded dinghy trials, a better sailing boat. 

So yes I agree the Aero is better than the ILCA in every regard.  Yet strangely as you also point out and I agree, the ILCA does not cost less.  The ILCA being inferior should cost less but it doesn't.

Why not? Because a bunch of people want to get rich off it and focus on the elite rather than the grass roots and current class leadership has aligned itself with that view.  ILCA class leadership have also funded themselves via that approach.

You didn't mention it but the Aero class also does a much better of maintaining an OD class and boat.  If you picked up an older stock ILCA (even if it was rarely used) you would need upgrade the boards, spars, lines, deck hardware, vang, cunningham and sails to be truly OD and equal to the ILCA you will find in the Olympics and it will cost you thousands on thousands to do so.  And ILCA leadership fills the coffers and makes money off each upgrade and every purchase be it boats, sails or gear. 

If you got rid of the fees and the upgrades (which have not improved the racing at all) and returned the expensive elite toy the ILCA has become to what the Laser was... it would be far, far cheaper than the Aero and the racing would still be way better.  Not to mention it would return the class to its actual roots. 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yet strangely as you also point out and I agree, the ILCA does not cost less.  The ILCA being inferior should cost less but it doesn't.   You can look up the cost of a new ILCA on ZIM's website right now.  It's $7,200.00 and change.  What's a new Aero selling for?

If you picked up an older stock ILCA (even if it was rarely used) you would need upgrade the boards, spars, lines, deck hardware, vang, cunningham and sails  My boat is a 2001- original blades.  Of course I buy a new sail every 2-3 years.  My 2nd MKII is entering it's 3rd season and in great shape, (but I didn't sail it much in 2020).  The vang/cunningham/outhaul upgrades have been around since 2002 or so?  Let's see how the Aero looks in 20 years.

If you got rid of the fees and the upgrades (which have not improved the racing at all) and returned the expensive elite toy the ILCA has become to what the Laser was... it would be far, far cheaper than the Aero - See above: $7,200.00 ZIM ILCA USD today...

 

 

 

 

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Wow!! Another new page of endless useless shit!!! 

You can still be the very first person to post something worthwhile in this thread!!! 

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24 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

 

Sorry but still saying no to Chinese POS.  Good grief the pics on this thread alone showed what crap the Zim ILCA stuff was.

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20 minutes ago, Wess said:

Sorry but still saying no to Chinese POS.  Good grief the pics on this thread alone showed what crap the Zim ILCA stuff was.

Just the manipulated Chinese currency at work.  The build is approved by ILCA inspectors.  They had to hit the same goal posts as the other builders.  

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