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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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1 hour ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

0?ui=2&ik=0c858344b2&attid=0.1.2&permmsgid=msg-f:1694140056007660067&th=1782cb67ae18d223&view=fimg&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ8jtWzP3e6bYk45rsXzzct2vo30QzHLZJ441fML6Xis0dMOgG3USu214hLXcq_uehBgYbN7Dv1bN1qiirjqWNGsbs_JWTs5w2fczweXNg0C3MO1aW3TEOCJkqI&disp=emb

if that's not good enough let me know. It's just a normal Harken XD vang

Maybe it’s my phone, but no photo showed up. Anyway, that is not the standard block for an XD. Here it is:

 

E745E209-8F80-4834-B6AE-B219BC4B26E4.jpeg

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10 hours ago, Wess said:

Yes the XD.  It took some time though for folks to be sailing with as much vang as they do today and thus the need for the upgraded sails and upper section of the mast/rig.  Seems to be more of a thing on the radial than the full rig but its also been a few years since I raced in anger so things may have evolved further.

I dont sail with anymore vang than I did in the early 90's...  Before the XD setup you'd head round the bottom mark and kick the mainsheet between the block and boom to "Supervang", it was just way harder to release at the top mark than it is now

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18 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Wow!! Another new page of endless useless shit!!! 

You can still be the very first person to post something worthwhile in this thread!!! 

 

10 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

0?ui=2&ik=0c858344b2&attid=0.1.2&permmsgid=msg-f:1694140056007660067&th=1782cb67ae18d223&view=fimg&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ8jtWzP3e6bYk45rsXzzct2vo30QzHLZJ441fML6Xis0dMOgG3USu214hLXcq_uehBgYbN7Dv1bN1qiirjqWNGsbs_JWTs5w2fczweXNg0C3MO1aW3TEOCJkqI&disp=emb

if that's not good enough let me know. It's just a normal Harken XD vang

No comment.

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16 hours ago, flyhigh said:

RobbieB, would you mind sharing who the dealer is that has the new boats in stock? I was not able to find that online. Thanks.

High and Dry Boat Works here in Charleston has 4 new ZIM boats for sale.  ZIM got at least one container in mid-March and we got 10 of the boat delivered here.

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20 hours ago, Wess said:

So yes I agree the Aero is better than the ILCA in every regard.

Yes, smaller fleets are definitely better!

Races are easier to win!!

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17 hours ago, Wess said:

I am curious to see if you get an honest answer from the lemmings.  Truth be told there is one bit of upgraded gear (that you didn't name) that makes for a meaningful performance difference.  But from that upgrade you are forced into needing others and the bill all told comes in at well over $1000.  Absent that bit of gear the others don't matter much.

This has been answered already.  I have all the new gear.  Honestly I feel like the composite upper is a detriment in lighter wind, but for heavier sailors it's a tiny bit better in breeze.  Blades, I still sail with the old ones as I don't see a benefit there.  Sail, the MKII lasts longer but is no faster than the MKI.  I think the vang is the most important upgrade that increases performance.  To your point the vang really puts stress on the leech of the sail and the upper spar, but if you know how to line up the collar rivet with the gooseneck it's a huge help.  

I've said this before as well.  For the most part it's the 1%'ers who are getting the most out of the gear advancements.  Except for the vang.  Everyone gets help from that and I really like the outhaul adjustment or and the new approved adjustable hiking strap set up, (which costs nothing).

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20 hours ago, Wess said:

So yes I agree the Aero is better than the ILCA in every regard.

Yes, smaller fleets are definitely better!

Races are easier to win!!

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20 hours ago, Wess said:

So yes I agree the Aero is better than the ILCA in every regard.

Yes, smaller fleets are definitely better!

(The races are easier to win!!)

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18 hours ago, Wess said:

Well Mr Plaque Nazi once again your facts are anything but and instead just made up BS.  I am not advocating for LPE.  I have, am, and always shall advocate for fee free generic Lasers and a return to the fundamentals of an simple, robust, affordable, accessible boat for the grass roots... that built the class.  :)

Fact - Your post that started these 105 pages, (so far).  "What a shame it has come to this!"  LPE was THE builder and PSA had Australia.  So....

Fact- New ZIM ILCA is under $ 7,300.00  USD.

Fact - You are assuming China built ILCA's are crap based on some pic's from the first built boats, but you have no first hand experience. Nor do I but I will sooner than you....and I'll freely share what I learn because as much as I am an advocate for ILCA I'm also open to the ups and downs of events and love FACTS over OPINION. 

I've never argued you advocating for generic boats.  However, I don't believe they should be allowed to compete in class sanction events.  That's just my position and opinion.  

Post facts please.    

 

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7 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

This has been answered already.  

This is the response to every single point Wess has ever raised. 

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10 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Maybe it’s my phone, but no photo showed up. Anyway, that is not the standard block for an XD. Here it is:

 

E745E209-8F80-4834-B6AE-B219BC4B26E4.jpeg

Thanks, I guess I'll just have to buy one, weird that it came with the wrong block though...

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14 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Thanks, I guess I'll just have to buy one, weird that it came with the wrong block though...

You could probably attach a key to the existing block with a twist shackle, but that would be awkward and likely put some uneven stress on the block. 

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Laser parts for sale: Teak tiller with existing groove to accept the traveller line, comes with 21” aluminum extension; 3:1 vang with yellow propylene rope; custom cut cunningham line with loop already tied in for 2:1 purchase; nylon eye and deck cleat cunningham combo, 3.2 ounce Elvstrom sail, used twice and only moderately blown out; RWO swivel mainsheet block and cleat, including a box of bandaids for chipped knuckles; wood foils basically the same shape as new ones - the trailing edges have recently been repaired; brommel-clip style clew tie down. Serious enquiries only. Ready for pick up. Your sailing experience will suck, but ILCA won’t get any of your money. And it won’t impact your quality of racing. Honest...

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37 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Laser parts for sale: Teak tiller with existing groove to accept the traveller line, comes with 21” aluminum extension; mid-70's red slide top igloo cooler-holds 4 beers with ice, 3:1 vang with yellow propylene rope; custom cut cunningham line with loop already tied in for 2:1 purchase; nylon eye and deck cleat cunningham combo, 3.2 ounce Elvstrom sail, used twice and only moderately blown out; RWO swivel mainsheet block and cleat, including a box of bandaids for chipped knuckles; wood foils basically the same shape as new ones - the trailing edges have recently been repaired; brommel-clip style clew tie down. Serious enquiries only. Ready for pick up. Your sailing experience will suck, but ILCA won’t get any of your money. And it won’t impact your quality of racing. Honest...

FIFY

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Laser parts for sale: Teak tiller with existing groove to accept the traveller line, comes with 21” aluminum extension; 3:1 vang with yellow propylene rope; custom cut cunningham line with loop already tied in for 2:1 purchase; nylon eye and deck cleat cunningham combo, 3.2 ounce Elvstrom sail, used twice and only moderately blown out; RWO swivel mainsheet block and cleat, including a box of bandaids for chipped knuckles; wood foils basically the same shape as new ones - the trailing edges have recently been repaired; brommel-clip style clew tie down. Serious enquiries only. Ready for pick up. Your sailing experience will suck, but ILCA won’t get any of your money. And it won’t impact your quality of racing. Honest...

Do you have any weight vest available?

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43 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Do you have any weight vest available?

Soaked cotton sweaters and hoodies.  Converse tennis shoes and a set of Foster Grants like these.. This is your grass roots boat.

162367761_1983laserpic.jpg

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Do you have any weight vest available?

No - but I found a pack of smokes and matches in a baggy from 40 years ago. Those were my drifter wind indicators. They certainly led to quality racing.

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7 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

No - but I found a pack of smokes and matches in a baggy from 40 years ago. Those were my drifter wind indicators. They certainly led to quality racing.

Ahh.  Always loved having a smoker on board for those light air PHRF lake sailing days...and they weren't always cigarettes...

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12 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Ahh.  Always loved having a smoker on board for those light air PHRF lake sailing days...and they weren't always cigarettes...

Used to occasionally have an on-water “skippers meeting” with a couple fellow Laser sailors before Wednesday Night Racing. 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Soaked cotton sweaters and hoodies.  Converse tennis shoes and a set of Foster Grants like these.. This is your grass roots boat.

162367761_1983laserpic.jpg

Cruisin’ the harbour and impressing the chicks. A few years before we all needed white zinc noses. Are those cut-offs?

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22 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Cruisin’ the harbour and impressing the chicks. A few years before we all needed white zinc noses. Are those cut-offs?

Birdwell Beach Britches. The original ones. 

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13 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Birdwell Beach Britches. The original ones. 

Chic and stylish, yet practical. 

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4 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Laser parts for sale: Teak tiller with existing groove to accept the traveller line, comes with 21” aluminum extension; 3:1 vang with yellow propylene rope; custom cut cunningham line with loop already tied in for 2:1 purchase; nylon eye and deck cleat cunningham combo, 3.2 ounce Elvstrom sail, used twice and only moderately blown out; RWO swivel mainsheet block and cleat, including a box of bandaids for chipped knuckles; wood foils basically the same shape as new ones - the trailing edges have recently been repaired; brommel-clip style clew tie down. Serious enquiries only. Ready for pick up. Your sailing experience will suck, but ILCA won’t get any of your money. And it won’t impact your quality of racing. Honest...

Thanks, I suspected this would/should be the case being a true one design.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Thanks, I suspected this would/should be the case being a true one design.

I guess you never owned a Starboat

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Birdwell Beach Britches. The original ones. 

Oui wee thats splains a lot. Those dastardly ILCA officials never put restrictions on what you must wear when racing a ILCA so now to be competitive you must spend hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars on hiking pants,  sailing pennies, hiking boots, spray tops, dry shirts, sailing gloves,  start watches, wind shift sailing sunglasses,  helmets, Z Block, specialized water bottles, energy drinks, energy bars, etc, etc, etc,etc,etc. I can only imagine the kickback those ILCA grifters are getting  from the manufactures, retailers to fund their super duper super secret vacays.

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10 minutes ago, Alan Crawford said:

Time to post this  1978 vintage Laser brochure again.

Just how much faster is a 2021 vintage Laser / ILCA than 1978?

The older I get, the faster I was.

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4 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Oui wee thats splains a lot. Those dastardly ILCA officials never put restrictions on what you must wear when racing a ILCA so now to be competitive you must spend hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars on hiking pants,  sailing pennies, hiking boots, spray tops, tin foil hats, dry shirts, sailing gloves,  start watches, wind shift sailing sunglasses,  helmets, Z Block, specialized water bottles, energy drinks, energy bars, etc, etc, etc,etc,etc. I can only imagine the kickback those ILCA grifters are getting  from the manufactures, retailers to fund their super duper super secret vacays.

FIFY

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6 hours ago, VWAP said:

Do you have any weight vest available?

VWAP- I have 2 or 3 Pattison 2 baggers and I think one 4 bagger in my garage, unfortunately it is the vest only, no water bags.  (We used to call them waterbabies>) KK

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On 4/21/2021 at 7:40 PM, Popeye_ali said:

guys is there a large performance increase from a Laser using a MK1 sail, older foils and a Ally mast vs Mk2 with carbon top and the new foils or is it incremental?

Establishing performance differences accurately and scientifically is hard and requires a lot of work. It's very rarely done properly. Starting rumours and making utterly unsupported allegations, on the other hand, is really easy and happens regularly. I've never heard of any proper trials being done for the Laser variations. 

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16 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

Time to post this  1978 vintage Laser brochure again.

Just how much faster is a 2021 vintage Laser / ILCA than 1978?

Page 1.jpg

Page 2.jpg

Page 3.jpg

Poster.jpg

This is awesome- I went from hull 8859 to a 146_ _ _ new hull in '93.  The speed improvement over the old,  flexible hull and soft decked 8859 was amazing.  Since then I've had 164375 165142 and now 170345.  No appreciable speed difference between any of those hulls, (overall).  I'm going to try one of the new ZIM ILCA's soon and it will be interesting to see how it feels compared to my, (what I consider to be) "cherry" 2001 current  hull.

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6 minutes ago, JimC said:

Establishing performance differences accurately and scientifically is hard and requires a lot of work. It's very rarely done properly. Starting rumours and making utterly unsupported allegations, on the other hand, is really easy and happens regularly. I've never heard of any proper trials being done for the Laser variations. 

It literally took 8+ years to move from the MKI to the MKII sail.  I know there was a lot of testing that went on during that time frame.  

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

Starting rumours and making utterly unsupported allegations, on the other hand, is really easy and happens regularly. 

Absolutely.  How could we have awesome threads like this one without rumors and utterly unsupported allegations?

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Or facts?  Like an ILCA could and should be $1000s cheaper and the racing would not be negatively impacted at all!

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Absolutely.  How could we have awesome threads like this one without rumors and utterly unsupported allegations?

All we really know are our own experiences. From mine, the top section makes no difference, the foils are simply more durable, and I still prefer my Mk 1 sail when it is light. The control upgrades don’t make the boat faster - but they make changing gears much easier. If you round a weather mark with an old vang in most conditions, by the time you get it set right you will have lost several boat lengths to someone with a new vang - or capsized trying. Sail an older Laser in decent shape with most upgrades and you will do OK against most at the club level. I don’t need to see much scientific research, sailing the boat on and off for 40 years is a pretty good sampling. 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Absolutely.  How could we have awesome threads like this one without rumors and utterly unsupported allegations by the socks and trolls?

FIFY

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Like an ILCA could and should be $1000s cheaper 

This is not a fact.  It's an opinion.  When someone here posts from one of the current builders the actual build costs which includes overhead that goes into a new ILCA as well as what it costs a dealer to inventory/sell boats THEN you can start to pontificate on what a new ILCA should/could retail for, but even then that is still an opinion.

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

This is not a fact.  It's an opinion.  When someone here posts from one of the current builders the actual build costs which includes overhead that goes into a new ILCA as well as what it costs a dealer to inventory/sell boats THEN you can start to pontificate on what a new ILCA should/could retail for, but even then that is still an opinion.

It's fact that Lasers from Mr. Rastegar's company are thousands of dollars cheaper than ILCAs.

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10 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's fact that Lasers from Mr. Rastegar's company are thousands of dollars cheaper than ILCAs.

Why? We have establishes the actual ILCA WS charges are fractional. Show me the $1000s!

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16 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's fact that Lasers from Mr. Rastegar's company are thousands of dollars cheaper than ILCAs.

 

404 Page Not Found

The page you requested does not exist.

 
Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery.
Sales Team will contact you regarding shipping this order
 

    https://www.velasailingsupply.com/laser-performance-laser-full-rig-xd-version/?sku=LP10007&gclid=Cj0KCQjw4ImEBhDFARIsAGOTMj8I1vEhRP8M2ICf2wQoW3ji1Ln5J5Guza53I3Jyc4sNsXPQUtRjLqwaAqzPEALw_wcB  

 

Availability:   Freight Oversize. Please call to confirm the stock availability.            

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24 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's fact that Lasers from Mr. Rastegar's company are no longer relevant because they are not part of the ILCA. They are rare, not so much in the way a gem is rare, but in the same way a disease like Ribose-5 phosphate isomerase deficiency is rare.

FIFY

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

It's fact that Lasers from Mr. Rastegar's company are thousands of dollars cheaper than ILCAs.

True, but we don't know what he's paying to build them nor do we know HOW he is having them built so....

Edited by RobbieB
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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Some many rich lemmings so little time.

And, mercifully, just one Wess. 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

And, mercifully, just one Wess. 

LOL that is true. But it’s also true that the vast majority of Laser sailors follow my path - not yours- and do not join ILCA seeing no benefit in an organization existing solely to pick their pockets of their money and give nothing back in return. 

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16 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL that is true. But it’s also true that the vast majority of Laser sailors follow my path - not yours- and do not join ILCA seeing no benefit in an organization existing solely to pick their pockets of their money and give nothing back in return. 

My path? Hell, I am a simple Laser sailor mainly at the Club level that isn’t bothered by ILCA and their funding. I wonder how many like-minded sailors there are out there. Personal choice. Not following and not leading. 

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

LOL that is true. But it’s also true that the vast majority of Laser sailors follow my path - not yours- and do not join ILCA seeing no benefit in an organization existing solely to pick their pockets of their money and give nothing back in return. 

So which singlehanded boat is more affordable than an ILCA to race? 

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3 hours ago, spankoka said:

So which singlehanded boat is more affordable than an ILCA to race? 

What Gouv said.

7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

the Unobtanium

...

In NZ there is one RS700, one Musto Skiff and apparently four Aeros (somewhere). I occasionally am aware of a single Contender that goes out for a blast. Other countries have more selection.

I have nothing against these boats (and actively like the Musto) however they do not have a fleet in NZ. (In NZ there are several adult one-design single handed classes: the 3.7, OK dinghy, Zephyr, Paper Tiger among others).

Therefore, if your objective is to engage in the port of one-design racing, then having others to race against is pretty important. :) 

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3 hours ago, spankoka said:

So which singlehanded boat is more affordable than an ILCA to race? 

 

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So which singlehanded boat is more affordable than an ILCA to race? 

 

Cape Cod Frosty!!!

 

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21 hours ago, koolkat505 said:

So which singlehanded boat is more affordable than an ILCA to race? 

 

Cape Cod Frosty!!!

 

TLC.

The Laser Class!

Or just about any club where Lasers race... they allow generic parts, sails and boats that ILCA does not. Huge cost savings for same fun racing.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

TLC.

The Laser Class!

Or just about any club where Lasers race... they allow generic parts, sails and boats that ILCA does not. Huge cost savings for same fun racing.

Wondering, does anyone know if any of those running TLC work in insurance?

This appears on the event pages of their site:

"The Regatta will be organised by the host venue. All sailors must ensure that they are insured with a current and valid third party liability insurance that includes a minimum cover of €1,500,000 (1.5 million Euros or the equivalent in another currency) per Event."

Is that normal for EU sailing events?

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oh Oooh  More fees.I think sum  dastardly officials are getting sum sum  kickbacks from insurance companies to fund "there" super duper super secret vacay's 

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3 hours ago, Metoxi said:

How is that a fee? Who would go racing without insurance?

Lots of people in countries where it is not mandatory.

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5 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Is that normal for EU sailing events?

Yes.

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39 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Really? I don’t think I’ve ever done an event where 3rd party insurance isn’t mandatory.  But then I’ve never raced in Australasia. 

The NOR for the recent RS Aero Australian Nationals required each competitor to have a minimum of $10,000,000 of liability insurance.

https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/largsbaysc/files/vorzbbsyqzq6d6sz.pdf

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Lots of people in countries where it is not mandatory.

If they are racing without insurance they're being irresponsible and showing a lack of respect to their fellow competitors.

 

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6 minutes ago, Metoxi said:

If they are racing without insurance they're being irresponsible and showing a lack of respect to their fellow competitors.

Not in New Zealand. I explain why here:

 

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Good to know Yachting New Zealand do recommend competitors have insurance.

https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/resources/template-standard-notice-race

23    INSURANCE
23.1     Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance with a minimum cover of <amount> per incident or the equivalent. Certificate of insurance is to be [submitted with entry][presented at registration].
    Insert the amount. $1,000,000 for dinghy events and $5,000,000 for keelboat events. This clause is recommended standard practice by Yachting New Zealand and World Sailing for all events and is mandatory for National Championship regattas.

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13 minutes ago, Metoxi said:

Good to know Yachting New Zealand do recommend competitors have insurance.

https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/resources/template-standard-notice-race

23    INSURANCE
23.1     Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance with a minimum cover of <amount> per incident or the equivalent. Certificate of insurance is to be [submitted with entry][presented at registration].
    Insert the amount. $1,000,000 for dinghy events and $5,000,000 for keelboat events. This clause is recommended standard practice by Yachting New Zealand and World Sailing for all events and is mandatory for National Championship regattas.

Most homeowners insurance policies include liability insurance for small boats. But generally, damage to the boat itself is not insured. In any event, insurance for both liability and damage is cheap as chips for an ILCA. The $10mill requirement for an RS event is a bit over the top. 

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Bill, the $10m coverage requirement is standard for any sail racing in Australia as far as I have seen.

We even need it to race our $2800 Windsurfer LT's!

Edit: This is for 3rd party personal liability coverage only, not accident coverage for your boat/ craft.

 

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51 minutes ago, Metoxi said:

Good to know Yachting New Zealand do recommend competitors have insurance.

Yet I've never seen that enforced in NZ. Note that these are the recommended sailing instructions/notice of race.

For example, this from the 2021 NZ ILCA Nationals:

"17. INSURANCE 17.1. Yachting New Zealand recommends that, for national championships, each participating boat shall be insured with valid marine third-party liability insurance with a minimum cover of $1,000,000 per incident or the equivalent."

http://www.nzlaser.org/sites/default/files/NZL Laser NC 2021 NOR-V3.pdf

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13 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Most homeowners insurance policies include liability insurance for small boats. But generally, damage to the boat itself is not insured. In any event, insurance for both liability and damage is cheap as chips for an ILCA. The $10mill requirement for an RS event is a bit over the top. 

You guys spent the weekend talking insurance??

Doesn't anyone sail any more?

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28 minutes ago, Wess said:

You guys spent the weekend talking insurance??

Doesn't anyone sail any more?

Snowed here

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Frostbiting a Laser is fun!  So is skiing.  But insurance discussions...  :wacko:

Anyway, I do hope you had a fun weekend.

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In Spain you need to have a license issued by any regional sailing federation in order to enter a regatta.

That license includes an insurance.

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7 hours ago, chuso007 said:

In Spain you need to have a license issued by any regional sailing federation in order to enter a regatta.

That license includes an insurance.

What's the cost? Also, does that include overseas visitors?

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

What's the cost? Also, does that include overseas visitors?

That depends on the region, here in Galicia is 57 euros per year. Not sure if you can get the license if you are not national, but I suppose you do...

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18 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

That depends on the region, here in Galicia is 57 euros per year. Not sure if you can get the license if you are not national, but I suppose you do...

Sounds like a similar cost to ACC here (Which are taken through a system of levies).

When I travel, my travel insurance covers personal liability. (Weirdly, when in the US, I paid a fraction for cover via travel insurance compared to what US citizens paid for to receive similar benefits.)

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