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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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44 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

 

Wess - are you ok with Italian, Polish, Thai and Argentinian boats? Or do they not meet your standards?

Come on man. You know English boats are best.

 

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Come on man. You know English boats are best.

 

We all knew Wess liked the UK boat - that’s what he bought (or is buying). The real question is will he sell all the ILCA stamped gear and replace it with generics? 

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And again having seen the mess that is the Canadian health care system I often wonder about the sanity of it’s citizens but you do realize that there are other builders in the UK besides LPE right?

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Huh? We know your builder of choice is Ovington. Not sure what health care systems have to do with all this. Have you been drinking again?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

And again having seen the mess that is the Canadian health care system I often wonder about the sanity of it’s citizens ....

I don't know what quality of health-care systems has to do with building boats but, as it's been raised, here is a link to an independent rating of the world's healthcare systems... with ranks of a few countries of interest below

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world

1. France
2. Italy

12. Portugal

17. Netherlands
18. UK

30. Canada
31. Finland

36. Costa Rica
37. United States
38. Slovenia

I still think English built boats are best. 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Huh? We know your builder of choice is Ovington. Not sure what health care systems have to do with all this. Have you been drinking again?

Not yet but it is Friday and we are about to head to a yacht renaming ceremony. I don’t know much about that but knowing the owner I am sure there will be much drinking involved.  I will toast her new yacht and The Laser Class! Cheers!!!

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

What's the boat with the red sail that appears in the video at around 0:43? Is that a Laser with a C-rig?

Well spotted!

image.png.44a8f5137f99efa6b91d3455fba6dc02.png

Looks very similar to me.

Laser C5 Rig - Page 2 - Dinghy Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

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5 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The entire concept of a new rig runs opposite of everything having to do with the Laser game. 
 

The game is to play a game between individuals who each use  functionally identical toys. 
 

The toy was created in 1969 and all the rest are supposed to go the same speed using the same effort as when sailing  the original.

 

The purpose of the class is to help organize and publicize opportunities to play the game conducted on those identical toys.

 

some fundamental   concepts:

* If it makes the toy sail faster it is cheating 

* If it slows the boat down there is no excuse for it 

* anything that improves durability is great unless it changes the initial performance 

* Changes for the sake of conveniences and  comforts are acceptable only if those changes do not modify performance 

*Kirby, Fogh, Bruce, and their friends could easily have made any part of the next toy a little better and therefore improved the performance a little bit at any time beginning with the second boat built. They decided to make identical toys so the games  would be entirely contested on the racecourse. 
 

* If the object had ever been to make the toys faster, the toys would have a motor mount. 
 

* The object is to bring an identical toy  to the games so each sailor can know the differences in the  toys has NOTHING to do with the order of finish. 
 

* The games are best when we are each playing the same game with functionally identical equipment

 

***repeat reading  this until it sinks in ***

New rigs including the Radial (ILCA 6) and the 4.7 (ILCA 5) are intended to be new classes.

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Those rigs won’t be relevant on a global basis for quite some time, if at all. With the revitalized class and multiple builders, the ILCA has stability. Had the class blown up with the Olympics and LPE shit show, there could have been an opportunity for new rigs, different construction methods and a lot of other changes. But ILCA did a great job salvaging matters and the class is way stronger than when Rasta was holding the cards. 

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23 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

But now that Wess is in charge......

That would be the single best thing that could ever happen ... for the Aero.

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On 5/1/2021 at 5:40 PM, Gouvernail said:

The entire concept of a new rig runs opposite of everything having to do with the Laser game. 
 

The game is to play a game between individuals who each use  functionally identical toys. 
 

The toy was created in 1969 and all the rest are supposed to go the same speed using the same effort as when sailing  the original.

 

The purpose of the class is to help organize and publicize opportunities to play the game conducted on those identical toys.

 

some fundamental   concepts:

* If it makes the toy sail faster it is cheating 

* If it slows the boat down there is no excuse for it 

* anything that improves durability is great unless it changes the initial performance 

* Changes for the sake of conveniences and  comforts are acceptable only if those changes do not modify performance 

*Kirby, Fogh, Bruce, and their friends could easily have made any part of the next toy a little better and therefore improved the performance a little bit at any time beginning with the second boat built. They decided to make identical toys so the games  would be entirely contested on the racecourse. 
 

* If the object had ever been to make the toys faster, the toys would have a motor mount. 
 

* The object is to bring an identical toy  to the games so each sailor can know the differences in the  toys has NOTHING to do with the order of finish. 
 

* The games are best when we are each playing the same game with functionally identical equipment

 

***repeat reading  this until it sinks in ***

 

On 5/2/2021 at 1:35 AM, Gouvernail said:

But now that Wess is in charge......

He would ask why does ILCA think its OK that you can upgrade your (NOT) OD boat - at the cost of $ thousands - on:

  * Improved mast sections (upper now, lower coming)

  * Better line packages

  * Better vangs

  * Better outhaul connections and controls

  * Improved daggerboards and daggerboard controls

  * Improved rudders

  * Better sails

  * Various tillers and tiler extensions

And he would think you a fool if you think that new rigs aren't coming in part because this is how class leadership makes money for the class since folks don't join and how builders make money.

If lemming were really honest they would concede that there are so many upgrades that cost in total thousands, and that the only thing that is still OD on the boat is the hull.  And bad news lemmings you only think that because changes to the hulls are buried in the construction manual and not made public so you don't even know that your hull has been obsoleted some time ago.

Happy Monday all!

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49 minutes ago, Wess said:

  * Improved mast sections (upper now, lower coming)

  * Better line packages -Since the boat hit the market "control lines" have been open for improvement.

  * Better vangs - Oh how I miss the old fangled set up with truckers hitches, thimbles and the $60 harken rotating tang connection.

  * Better outhaul connections and controls -Clearly you were not around for the days of thimbles and truckers hitches... Those were awasome!

  * Improved daggerboards and daggerboard controls - Blades have changed mostly in order to STOP people from illegally fairing them.  They have finally come up with a design where you can actually repair the trailing edges if they are damaged.  However, you can't monkey with the finish.  Improved controls?  Outside of some felt to keep the dagger board from wearing through the deck How/where?

  * Improved rudders - Same as above

  * Better sails - longer lasting, finally!

  * Various tillers and tiler extensions - Man I miss the days of bendy PVC extensions, but again these have been monkeyed with since the boat hit the water. Hey, if you want to go back to the old "frying pan" set up knock yourself out!

 

 

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On 4/30/2021 at 3:35 PM, torrid said:

It's very unfortunate what is happening with the Sunfish class, but they have nowhere else to go.

This right here....

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

 

He would ask why does ILCA think its OK that you can upgrade your (NOT) OD boat - at the cost of $ thousands - on:

  * Improved mast sections (upper now, lower coming)

  * Better line packages

  * Better vangs

  * Better outhaul connections and controls

  * Improved daggerboards and daggerboard controls

  * Improved rudders

  * Better sails

  * Various tillers and tiler extensions

And he would think you a fool if you think that new rigs aren't coming in part because this is how class leadership makes money for the class since folks don't join and how builders make money.

If lemming were really honest they would concede that there are so many upgrades that cost in total thousands, and that the only thing that is still OD on the boat is the hull.  And bad news lemmings you only think that because changes to the hulls are buried in the construction manual and not made public so you don't even know that your hull has been obsoleted some time ago.

Happy Monday all!

The only change I would have backed off was the vang. No problem with the purchase, but a stopper at block to block (or just past) would have saved a bunch of top sections, and perhaps reduced the need for the carbon top. The balance are either durability or simple efficiency related. Nothing that changed the performance of the boat. 

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40 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

a stopper at block to block (or just past) would have saved a bunch of top sections, and reduced the need for the carbon top.

Now that is just sound and logical thinking.  And would have cost ILCA and builders lots of money.  So, no way would they do that!

 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

The only change I would have backed off was the vang. No problem with the purchase, but a stopper at block to block (or just past) would have saved a bunch of top sections, and perhaps reduced the need for the carbon top. The balance are either durability or simple efficiency related. Nothing that changed the performance of the boat. 

You could supervang with the 3:1 vang but it took some skill. Top sections used to break in those days too.

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57 minutes ago, tillerman said:

You could supervang with the 3:1 vang but it took some skill. Top sections used to break in those days too.

Not like today, though. You can turn the rig inside out!

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20 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Not like today, though. You can turn the rig inside out!

In the earliest days, I think I saw as many mast step failures as busts tops.

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

In the earliest days, I think I saw as many mast step failures as busts tops.

Oh those not public construction manual changers that ILCA don’t tell you about?

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Not like today, though. You can turn the rig inside out!

I know. And IMHO it looks ridiculous.

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Oh those not public construction manual changers that ILCA don’t tell you about?

I didn’t care. I was 15. Still don’t. And I am, um, older than that.

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I didn’t care. I was 15. Still don’t. And I am, um, older than that.

All right but then don't claim its OD.  Because its not. The difference between an older used L:aser boat with no upgrades and a newer ILCA boat with all of them is 1.) a lot of money (more than $1000 and of which ILCA leadership take a cut), and 2.) speed around the course.

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

All right but then don't claim its OD.  Because its not. The difference between an older used L:aser boat with no upgrades and a newer ILCA boat with all of them is 1.) a lot of money (more than $1000 and of which ILCA leadership take a cut), and 2.) speed around the course.

Oh I see. So back in the 70s you think they should have taken fixing the mast step to a vote. 

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19 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

We used to sit on the boom and bounce. 1979.

I saw a guy from Quebec have his dad sit on the end of his boom before leaving the beach. Good for the first beat...

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On 5/4/2021 at 11:02 AM, Bill5 said:

Oh I see. So back in the 70s you think they should have taken fixing the mast step to a vote. 

Where the heck did I say that?  You folks are claiming the boats are all OD.  Come on that is absurd.   You can spend thousands more or less upgrading an older used boat or a new base model ILCA, equipment them quite differently, and the build processes have changed.  Some are faster and some are slower around the course and the sales of new (boats and gear) is how ILCA leadership has decided to fund themselves since can't get most Laser sailors to join so this will continue.  That is one of the reasons I believe the construction manual should be public and upcoming changes announced prior... so you can avoid buying an obsolete ILCA.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Where the heck did I say that?  You folks are claiming the boats are all OD.  Come on that is absurd.   You can spend thousands more or less upgrading an older used boat or a new base model ILCA, equipment them quite differently, and the build processes have changed.  Some are faster and some are slower around the course and the sales of new (boats and gear) is how ILCA leadership has decided to fund themselves since can't get most Laser sailors to join so this will continue.  That is one of the reasons I believe the construction manual should be public and upcoming changes announced prior... so you can avoid buying an obsolete ILCA.

But you're still in "that" game even if you buy a "Laser".  Cause "Laser" says all "Lasers" built between 1970 whatever and the magic date in 2019 are also "Laser" class legal.  By doing that though aren't they also killing the grass roots movement which is all weed, long hair, and cotton only clothing allowed? 

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Yea, that is fair but the point made by Bill was with re ILCA. So that is what I commented on. But yes Laser is the same I agree due to the many changes ILCA (the class) made over the years. 

Again what I prefer is a public construction manual or build spec and generic parts, sails and boats. All of which is consistent with FRAND BTW. And more aligned with its spirit than this BS ILCA leadership adopted. But they did what they did so what is left is to pick the lesser of the evils and for me the biggest black hat is worn by ILCA leadership. 

To each his/her own. 

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8 hours ago, Wess said:

Where the heck did I say that?  You folks are claiming the boats are all OD.  Come on that is absurd.   You can spend thousands more or less upgrading an older used boat or a new base model ILCA, equipment them quite differently, and the build processes have changed.  Some are faster and some are slower around the course and the sales of new (boats and gear) is how ILCA leadership has decided to fund themselves since can't get most Laser sailors to join so this will continue.  That is one of the reasons I believe the construction manual should be public and upcoming changes announced prior... so you can avoid buying an obsolete ILCA.

Read your last sentence calling for notice of changes. Perhaps “vote” was too strong of a word on my part. What makes a Laser obsolete? What are your expectations? A guy in our club (Laser returnee) picked a slime green Laser from the 70’s. All original - red shag, the works. Do you actually believe he should be able to launch and win with no updates? In what class can you do this? Must be lots of edibles in Wess world.
 

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I for one would be very happy if Wess truly embraced the early 1970s and got rid of his 'puter and mobile.

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15 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Read your last sentence calling for notice of changes. Perhaps “vote” was too strong of a word on my part. What makes a Laser obsolete? What are your expectations? A guy in our club (Laser returnee) picked a slime green Laser from the 70’s. All original - red shag, the works. Do you actually believe he should be able to launch and win with no updates? In what class can you do this? Must be lots of edibles in Wess world.
 

But Bill you are the one that said the updates are not supposed to make the boat faster.  So yes, according to your view if ILCA was truly OD then he should be able to win, no?  Pick one side of the fence or the other.  Is ILCA OD or not?  Do the updates make the boat faster or no?  My answer is no and yes. And I would add that the updates don't improve the racing - they actually diminish it because they raise the bar in terms of access - and are designed to simply make the class and manufactures more money.  In my opinion ILCA is about making money not making racing better with all these updates and changes.  And its the exact same thing with the new rigs which they were forced to put on ice.

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29 minutes ago, Wess said:

But Bill you are the one that said the updates are not supposed to make the boat faster.  So yes, according to your view if ILCA was truly OD then he should be able to win, no? 

Put Robert Scheidt, (or any of the worlds top ILCA sailors) in all original 1970's Laser/ICLA's and you, (or anyone else following this thread) in a brand new Ovi, or PSA or take your pic of builder with all of the upgrades developed in the last 20 years and they kick all our asses.  

What say you to that?  

Here's what I say:  If skill beats out the upgrades isn't it still OD?

 

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22 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Put Robert Scheidt, (or any of the worlds top ILCA sailors) in all original 1970's Laser/ICLA's and you, (or anyone else following this thread) in a brand new Ovi, or PSA or take your pic of builder with all of the upgrades developed in the last 20 years and they kick all our asses.  

What say you to that?  

Here's what I say:  If skill beats out the upgrades isn't it still OD?

 

I agree but reject the premise as being irrelevant and flawed.  Its not about Scheidt vs you or me or Bill.  Its about Bill vs Bill in those two boats and if you are honest the upgraded one will be faster.  And that ain't OD.  Its simply a way for ILCA and manufactures to make money. 

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22 minutes ago, Wess said:

I agree but reject the premise as being irrelevant and flawed.  Its not about Scheidt vs you or me or Bill.  Its about Bill vs Bill in those two boats and if you are honest the upgraded one will be faster.  And that ain't OD.  Its simply a way for ILCA and manufactures to make money. 

Bill vs Bill. Bill wins every time. But I remain curious, Wess, as to what class Bill can buy a 25 year old boat and win without upgrading. And what one design has remained unchanged since the first one hit the water?

 UK guys - has the PN for the Laser jumped over the years as the result of changes?

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The py system doesn’t really tell you anything as all it does is measure the speed of one group of sailors against the speed of other groups of sailors. So doesn’t tell you anything about one classes boat speed.


But for the record over the last 15 year the py number has got bigger meaning the Laser/ILCA has got SLOWER . 

 

I have owned boats with and without the new controls. Overall was I faster with the new controls NO. 

BUT the new controls ( especially the new harken vang ) did mean l could  go sailing in windy conditions when before I was just overpowered and often didn’t even bother rigging up. 
So it just ment I had a last place again my name on the race sheet instead of a DNS. :D

 

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7 minutes ago, Xeon said:

The py system doesn’t really tell you anything as all it does is measure the speed of one group of sailors again the speed of other groups of sailors. So doesn’t tell you anything about one classes boat speed.


But for the record over the last 15 year the py number has got bigger meaning the Laser/ILCA has got SLOWER . 

 

I have owned boat with and without the new controls. Overall was I faster with the new controls NO. 

BUT the new controls ( especially the new harken vang ) did mean l could  go sailing in windy conditions when before I was just overpowered and often didn’t even bother going rigging up. 
So it just ment I had a last place again my name on the race sheet instead of a DNS. :D

 

Thanks Xeon. But I do think PN is a reasonable indicator of speed, and what everyone asks when a “how fast is it” question is out forward in DA. I know the numbers tend to rise and fall marginal amounts based on reporting of results, etc, but I think the Laser variance has been quite small - and is based on results from over 28,000 races. 
Your point is right on in terms of sailability with the new gear. That, and durability, have been what has driven every change. None were done to make the boat faster. 

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3 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

the Laser variance has been quite small - and is based on results from over 28,000 races

28,000 races is impressive! The ILCA/Laser sounds like a one-design to me - and a fairly popular one at that.

Wikipedia, World Sailing, the IOC, and pretty much every sailor, when asked to give an example of a one-design sailboat will mention the Laser as an example of one-design. Wess must feel like the whole world is against him! (Or something else is going on here).

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16 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

28,000 races is impressive! The ILCA/Laser sounds like a one-design to me - and a fairly popular one at that.

Wikipedia, World Sailing, the IOC, and pretty much every sailor, when asked to give an example of a one-design sailboat will mention the Laser as an example of one-design. Wess must feel like the whole world is against him! (Or something else is going on here).

Wess against the WORLD!  Sounds like a great movie title.  Opening scene, Wess is sitting in his full mahogany office, Pipe in the corner of his mouth, Glass of fine rum, (which he refuses to part with) in his hand. Yellowed, 24" x 36" Design drawings of the Laser in various stages taped all over the walls.  He looks as if he hasn't bathed in weeks.  Faint glow of the computed screen against his face as he stares at it while sitting in an opulent office chair, clutching his glass of rum and mumbling to himself...."The conspiracy is driving me mad...Those damn Chinese....and the nutters on SA...."

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

Wess against the WORLD!  Sounds like a great movie title.  Opening scene, Wess is sitting in his full mahogany office, Pipe in the corner of his mouth, Glass of fine rum, (which he refuses to part with) in his hand. Yellowed, 24" x 36" Design drawings of the Laser in various stages taped all over the walls.  He looks as if he hasn't bathed in weeks.  Faint glow of the computed screen against his face as he stares at it while sitting in an opulent office chair, clutching his glass of rum and mumbling to himself...."The conspiracy is driving me mad...Those damn Chinese....and the nutters on SA...."

An old woman's voice interrupts Wess at his desk. "Wessley, come and get your mother a drink". Wess slumps further in his chair, then rises, with a downtrodden defeated look. "Hurry up Wessley."

Wess feels that serving his mother should not be the work of someone with Messiah qualities like he believes he has. But he knows that so long as she draws breath, and has the ability to change her Will, he would be under her control.

 

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22 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

An old woman's voice interrupts Wess at his desk. "Wessley, come and get your mother a drink". Wess slumps further in his chair, then rises, with a downtrodden defeated look. "Hurry up Wessley."

Wess feels that serving his mother should not be the work of someone with Messiah qualities like he believes he has. But he knows that so long as she draws breath, and has the ability to change her Will, he would be under her control.

 

Oh God, I feel a funny, full on derailment coming....

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LOL what % of Laser sailors join ILCA again?

Can't wait to see the lies this generates!

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42 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL what % of Laser sailors join ILCA again?

Can't wait to see the lies this generates!

What % of ILCA sailors join ILCA?

What % of Sunfish sailor join the Sunfish class association?

What % of Hobie sailors join the Hobie Class Association?

Im going to hazard a guess the ILCA has the largest % membership.

What is the largest adult class association by membersship in the world?  Im going out on a limb here and going to guess its ILCA.

Mine our guesses, do you have numbers?

Just out of curiousity does anyone have the size of classes and class associations?  US Sailing used to have  a database based on # of attendees at National Championships. Im not sure where that stands now.

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55 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL what % of Laser sailors join ILCA again?

Can't wait to see the lies this generates!

Owners, sailors or racers? Nice head-fake by the way. A bunch of questions tossed your way which you ignore and pull one of your old ones from the vault. Well played! LOL

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Lemmings = Obfuscation

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

What % of ILCA sailors join ILCA?

What % of Sunfish sailor join the Sunfish class association?

What % of Hobie sailors join the Hobie Class Association?

Im going to hazard a guess the ILCA has the largest % membership.

What is the largest adult class association by membersship in the world?  Im going out on a limb here and going to guess its ILCA.

Mine our guesses, do you have numbers?

Just out of curiousity does anyone have the size of classes and class associations?  US Sailing used to have  a database based on # of attendees at National Championships. Im not sure where that stands now.

I don't know about a US Sailing database for attendees at US National Championships but here is some data from Yachts and Yachting of UK National attendances for singlehanded hiking one sail classes. And before anyone else cries foul - yes the RS Aero is shown as one class and the Laser as three, so not a fair comparison.

1337914587_ScreenShot2021-05-07at4_27_14PM.thumb.png.8df055bb61ca97064ef1bd5d81c88827.png

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35 minutes ago, Wess said:

Lemmings = Obfuscation

lemmings have periodic population booms...one of the few vertebrates which reproduce so quickly that their population fluctuations are chaotic,[4][5] rather than following linear growth to a carrying capacity or regular oscillations. Why lemming populations fluctuate with such great variance roughly every four years, before numbers drop to near extinction is not known.

Ahhhh,,,,,,,ILCA = International Lemming Class Association, on the verge of one of its periodic population booms??????  Every 4 years is no coincidence .

image.png.d838374c522aea2beff0501735185ad4.png

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24 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I don't know about a US Sailing database for attendees at US National Championships but here is some data from Yachts and Yachting of UK National attendances for singlehanded hiking one sail classes. And before anyone else cries foul - yes the RS Aero is shown as one class and the Laser as three, so not a fair comparison.

1337914587_ScreenShot2021-05-07at4_27_14PM.thumb.png.8df055bb61ca97064ef1bd5d81c88827.png

Wow.....so its the Supernova! Never heard of it. Just looked it up. Seems a very nice boat.

Supernova

And.....this would piss off Wess.....class association fees are only UKP15.00 per boat.

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8 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Post

Love your signature line.  Hell of a run from 1984.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Wow.....so its the Supernova! Never heard of it. Just looked it up. Seems a very nice boat.

Supernova

And.....this would piss off Wess.....class association fees are only UKP15.00 per boat.

The UK does seem to have a good number of thriving singlehanded classes. What's their secret?

 

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Love your signature line.  Hell of a run from 1984.

Love your signature line Wess. Hell of a run since 2019.

BTW, does 'The Laser Class' still exist?

 

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8 hours ago, tillerman said:

I don't know about a US Sailing database for attendees at US National Championships but here is some data from Yachts and Yachting of UK National attendances for singlehanded hiking one sail classes. And before anyone else cries foul - yes the RS Aero is shown as one class and the Laser as three, so not a fair comparison.
 

Laser Championship attendance numbers are *very* anomalous. The full rig Championship has a spectacularly low attendance compared to masters and other events on the calendar. There must be some factor or factors that depress the turnout. I don't think it wise to draw any conclusion from that figure.

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6 hours ago, JimC said:

Laser Championship attendance numbers are *very* anomalous. The full rig Championship has a spectacularly low attendance compared to masters and other events on the calendar. There must be some factor or factors that depress the turnout. I don't think it wise to draw any conclusion from that figure.

Totally agree.  The Laser class is unique with a very different regatta attendance pattern from other classes. I was a member for decades and I think I only attended one regular national championship in all that time, but many national, continental and world Masters champs.

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Personally I don't think the upgrades make the boat any quicker, all they do is make adjusting things easier.

When I started sailing Lasers 30 years ago, people used to set their outhaul & kicker before launching, never adjusting them on the water! Then they wondered why they couldn't bearaway at the windward mark, the boom hitting the water & then game over! Also lots of broken top sections & booms all because they couldn't manage to let the kicker off. 

Now with these new systems it makes it easier, encourages people to adjust the controls & learn what they do. Making for more enjoyable faster sailing, plus better results whilst racing. So to me a win win situation.

The PY number

Laser in 2010 was 1080, now it's 1100

Fireball in 2010 was 982, now it's 952

GP14 in 2010 was 1127, now it's 1130

So from this the Laser has got 30 points slower, Fireball 30 points faster & the GP14 almost static. so now the Laser has a 60 point advantage on the Fireball. But in all these years of handicap racing that I've done at my club, our racing results are as close as ever.

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4 hours ago, Martin T said:

The PY number

Laser in 2010 was 1080, now it's 1100

Fireball in 2010 was 982, now it's 952

GP14 in 2010 was 1127, now it's 1130

So from this the Laser has got 30 points slower, Fireball 30 points faster & the GP14 almost static. so now the Laser has a 60 point advantage on the Fireball. But in all these years of handicap racing that I've done at my club, our racing results are as close as ever.

"The older I get, the faster I was."

Seems like this applies to all Laser sailors, not just me.

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On 5/7/2021 at 6:52 AM, Wess said:

I agree but reject the premise as being irrelevant and flawed.  Its not about Scheidt vs you or me or Bill.  Its about Bill vs Bill in those two boats and if you are honest the upgraded one will be faster.  And that ain't OD.  Its simply a way for ILCA and manufactures to make money. 

Repeat:

Bill vs Bill. Bill wins every time. But I remain curious, Wess, as to what class Bill can buy a 25 year old boat and win without upgrading. And what one design has remained unchanged since the first one hit the water?

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8 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

42

42 times we have had essentially the same argument? 

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Anyway, let's get back to Wess' bet and see where we stand. Here is what Wess said:

image.png.85b38fb8d04ecb499a62b9ab3554b47b.png

Results

Higher prices: There can be some debate - as different geographies have different experiences, but straight up the price has gone up. Win: Wess

Supply problems: No need to comment. Win: Robbie, Tracey and others, handily.

Quality problems: So far, one leaky bailer. LPE had quality problems well before all this. PSA were already producing higher quality boats, and there in no reason to believe the other builders will put out a quality product. Win: Robbie, Tracy and others, handily. 

Lawsuit: Has there been a new lawsuit post "SMOD LPE world"?

So it's either a 3-1 win for Robbie, Tracey and others, or a tie. And the tie would go to Robbie, Tracey and others just because Wess can be such a dick. 

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On 4/30/2021 at 5:47 PM, tillerman said:

I don't know what quality of health-care systems has to do with building boats but, as it's been raised, here is a link to an independent rating of the world's healthcare systems... with ranks of a few countries of interest below

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world

1. France
2. Italy

12. Portugal

17. Netherlands
18. UK

30. Canada
31. Finland

36. Costa Rica
37. United States
38. Slovenia

I still think English built boats are best. 

The beauty of living next to the US is you can have a mediocre health care system and still smugly compare to south of the border.

The smugness drains away with broader comparison. When living in Europe I sampled the health care system in the UK (formerly a European country), France and Italy – I found at least the latter two more satisfactory than Canada.

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8 hours ago, Bill5 said:

42 times we have had essentially the same argument? 

Or,  Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy,

We probably all need a PanGalaticGargelBlaster

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Anyway, let's get back to Wess' bet and see where we stand. Here is what Wess said:

image.png.85b38fb8d04ecb499a62b9ab3554b47b.png

Results

Higher prices: There can be some debate - as different geographies have different experiences, but straight up the price has gone up. Win: Wess

Supply problems: No need to comment. Win: Robbie, Tracey and others, handily.

Quality problems: So far, one leaky bailer. LPE had quality problems well before all this. PSA were already producing higher quality boats, and there IS no reason NOT to believe the other builders will put out a quality product. Win: Robbie, Tracy and others, handily. 

Lawsuit: Has there been a new lawsuit post "SMOD LPE world"?

So it's either a 3-1 win for Robbie, Tracey and others, or a tie. And the tie would go to Robbie, Tracey and others just because Wess can be such a dick. 

TYPO FIXED

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8 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Higher prices: There can be some debate - as different geographies have different experiences, but straight up the price has gone up.

Taking into consideration that global inflation is annually a bit over 3%, is that still true?

Also, it is too early to tell, because we are in the middle of a pandemic. Initial demand has exceeded supply, however once the market has settled (and is back to normal), then we will be better placed to evaluate. We might have to wait a couple of years.

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3 hours ago, JulianB said:

Or,  Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy,

We probably all need a PanGalaticGargelBlaster

Or maybe a set from Disaster Area to clear our minds

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4 hours ago, KC375 said:

Or maybe a set from Disaster Area to clear our minds

The last thing we need is "Deep Thought" to actual think about this.

What would the dolphins or mice think, or for that matter Zaphod Beeblebrox or Ford Prefect.

And most of us have digital wrist watches (I don't)

          jB

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1 hour ago, JulianB said:

And most of us have digital wrist watches (I don't)

I do. It's in a box, with a broken wristband, unused since 2013. :) 

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35 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Anybody  know who fixes these??

PROPERLY!!!

 

 

9D0B5D3E-28E2-4A7C-BE48-1868B2B631E4.jpeg

 

Real proper permanently 'fixed'.

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20 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Anyway, let's get back to Wess' bet and see where we stand. Here is what Wess said:

image.png.85b38fb8d04ecb499a62b9ab3554b47b.png

Results

Higher prices: There can be some debate - as different geographies have different experiences, but straight up the price has gone up. Win: Wess

Supply problems: No need to comment. Win: Robbie, Tracey and others, handily.

Quality problems: So far, one leaky bailer. LPE had quality problems well before all this. PSA were already producing higher quality boats, and there in no reason to believe the other builders will put out a quality product. Win: Robbie, Tracy and others, handily. 

Lawsuit: Has there been a new lawsuit post "SMOD LPE world"?

So it's either a 3-1 win for Robbie, Tracey and others, or a tie. And the tie would go to Robbie, Tracey and others just because Wess can be such a dick. 

Interesting.  I could not muster the energy to ever search for the "original" bet terms....

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On 5/7/2021 at 11:55 AM, Wess said:

LOL what % of Laser sailors join ILCA again?

Can't wait to see the lies this generates!

Agreed this will be interesting.  US District 12 has seen a big increase in membership during the past 2 years.  

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29 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Interesting.  I could not muster the energy to ever search for the "original" bet terms....

I stumbled across it looking for something else. Total fluke I found it. 

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Quote

A side point, initial testing of the Mark 3 ILCA 7 sail looks like quite a grunty rig, which is likely to slightly raise the optimum weight.

The Mk 2 has only been out a couple of years and already a Mk3 is on the cards.  Anyone got any details?  Potentially good news for all the disgruntled Finn boys...

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5 hours ago, Board skiff said:

The Mk 2 has only been out a couple of years and already a Mk3 is on the cards.  Anyone got any details?  Potentially good news for all the disgruntled Finn boys...

I can’t see them making a new sail that would up the optimum rate.

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31 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I can’t see them making a new sail that would up the optimum rate.

After the last few years, nothing would surprise me.  
 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

After the last few years, nothing would surprise me.  
 

Changing the sail to accommodate heavyweights? No chance. Rum bet? 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Changing the sail to accommodate heavyweights? No chance. Rum bet? 

How about a 9 meter sail?

 

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12 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Changing the sail to accommodate heavyweights? No chance. Rum bet? 

there's been talk of this for years and Rooster put out a rig.  Don't think it ever got much traction.  The biggest "scare" we've had to date are the "c" rigs which I personally hope never see the light of day.

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12 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

there's been talk of this for years and Rooster put out a rig.  Don't think it ever got much traction.  The biggest "scare" we've had to date are the "c" rigs which I personally hope never see the light of day.

The have a small following in the UK, I think they even had nationals for a few years. (2007 - 2014?)

https://www.sail-world.com/class/Rooster-8.1/

tune5.gif