Jump to content

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


Recommended Posts

The irony of it of-course is that the great bulk of the US inter-varsity C420's are Zou boats, so here you are, preaching the use of non Chinese products when your smartest and future leaders are all playing around in exactly what your railing against.

Take the badges off, I doubt you will be able to tell the difference.   Be they C420's or ILCA's.

And unless you specifically ask then, probably all the ILCA's (and definitely the LPE's) will have considerable Chinese components from CSM, through all the foam cores (which are all made in one place in northern China, for all boats) down to probably the nuts and bolts.

If you do ask, then probably it's impossible (because of the foam, supply) to actually get a "zero Asian component boat".    Probably impossible to get a "zero Asian component" manufactured anything to be honest.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 11.4k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Wess

    1736

  • tillerman

    1272

  • Bill5

    1131

  • RobbieB

    886

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

There is no simple way to describe the procedure for complying with World Sailing’s Equipment Policy. However, there is enough misinformation flying about on various forums and social media that some

hell, I'd build em

Hi Torrid, yes, it's 50year old legacy fiberglass, but there are a multitude of nuances, that Turner has alluded to in his video, that we have heard from just about everyone one of the new builders an

Posted Images

It cracks me up what sets people off and triggers them. China. Go figure. I guess some love their stuff. And Julian please go right ahead and buy it. But I would take an Ovi at a premium. Or an LPE at a discount. And the comments about the many and repeated quality defects on the Chinese ILCA boats (made by lemmings BTW not me) explains why. But please do go ahead. And give me the same right (to not). Hell I even like new innovative rigs... on non OD non established classes. You do you. I’ll do me. And after many years I have had enough of ILCA’s BS and China’s too! You send em YOUR money. I’ll keep mine!

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Gouv- Swiss Watch Technical in Lititz (?) Pa used to (20 plus years ago).  We (Afterguard Marine) used to import them.  If you find someone, let me know, I have two of them upstairs in my dresser drawer, neither have worked for 20 years. Thanks- Barry--  Watch is the Aquastar Regate

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Wess said:

It cracks me up what sets people off and triggers them. China. Go figure. I guess some love their stuff. And Julian please go right ahead and buy it. But I would take an Ovi at a premium. Or an LPE at a discount. And the comments about the many and repeated quality defects on the Chinese ILCA boats (made by lemmings BTW not me) explains why. But please do go ahead. And give me the same right (to not). Hell I even like new innovative rigs... on non OD non established classes. You do you. I’ll do me. And after many years I have had enough of ILCA’s BS and China’s too! You send em YOUR money. I’ll keep mine!

I'm not asking you to buy anything.   Go back and check.   The fact that your brethren are and have been doing so for many years has nothing to do with me or my urging!

All I am point out is the hypocrisy of some of the comments made by some contributors.

And yes, I will continue to source from where I can get the best solution, rather than arbitrarily exclude some.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

And all I am point out is per lemmings here it was reported that 10 out of 10 Chinese ILCAs had quality defects.  And the very organization that claims to be inspecting these builders (cough cough) apparently managed to post a pic announcing the Chinese builder could not even mount the bow cleat properly.  Can't make this stuff up. I mean ILCA and WS already collects fees to do these inspections (yea right I believe that)... maybe they should add another fee so they can inspect the photos!  :lol:

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

April 26th, other thread, if its not been deleted or edited.  From post #1 "one of the outhaul package blocks was missing from every boat"

For gosh sakes man its coming from the lemming lovers. These ain't my words, they are from your camp.

So glad the ILCA inspection picked up on that... not LOL!!

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Wess said:

April 26th, other thread, if its not been deleted or edited.  From post #1 "one of the outhaul package blocks was missing from every boat"

For gosh sakes man its coming from the lemming lovers. These ain't my words, they are from your camp.

So glad the ILCA inspection picked up on that... not LOL!!

Any decent local dealer will inspect boats on arrival and deal with a missing outhaul block. Did these boats get delivered directly from China to the site?  I might be wrong, but I am thinking the ILCA inspection doesn’t include the shipping dock. Or the reception area. If ten boats all leaked I would certainly have an issue. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Wess said:

Full rig? Nevermind the section its just impressive to keep it upright in those conditions DDW.  The gybe at the LW mark must have been fun. 

Yeah.  Full.  Normally I would have sat on shore and had a beverage, but the venue for the ACC's and time of year is prime for that kind of breeze.  Actually pulled off a few gybes.  Just gotta make sure your moving as fast as possible and swing it over.  I was surprised I avoided the capsize as well!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Any decent local dealer will inspect boats on arrival and deal with a missing outhaul block. Did these boats get delivered directly from China to the site?  I might be wrong, but I am thinking the ILCA inspection doesn’t include the shipping dock. Or the reception area. If ten boats all leaked I would certainly have an issue. 

He's fairly new to the boat and kids were anxious for the boats so I think he had the trailer take them straight to the YC and they had an unpacking and rigging party all together.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

 I am thinking the ILCA inspection doesn’t

Again, no truer words have ever bee spoken.  Just gotta remove the wiggle! ;)

Beyond that are you really serious about the "dealer will inspect and deal with..." comment as it relates to 10 out of 10 having quality defects?  So now its OK to have a Chinese builder that sucks so bad that 10 out of 10 ILCAs have a quality defect because the dealer will inspect and deal with it???  What happened to ILCA and WS collecting fees to inspect?  How crappy (ie doesn't happen) are those inspections for 10 out of 10 to show up having easy to spot defects?  How about the boats with the multiple defects?  How about all the defects you or the dealer can't see... or do you seriously believe that the Chinese ILCA builder only sucks this bad on the obvious to spot defects and there isn't much more wrong that you can't see?  Do you really think that if they can't do the easy stuff right, they are doing the hard stuff right?  Seriously??

If you want to have an honest discussion then have one.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Any decent local dealer will inspect boats on arrival and deal with a missing outhaul block. Did these boats get delivered directly from China to the site?  I might be wrong, but I am thinking the ILCA inspection doesn’t include the shipping dock. Or the reception area. If ten boats all leaked I would certainly have an issue. 

Would be interesting to know exactly what the inspections do include.  I would imagine they are mostly "build process" focused on layup, weight, rake and the other things they looked at when sawing up the first 10 boats off the line during the builder approval process.  QC fit and finish is important though and the rigging is just a matter of someone following a packing list to make sure the right items, (blocks, lines and so on are included).  It's highly likely the actual hourly fabricators are not sailors and don't know which way a bow handle or cleat should be mounted, but someone on the QC check before the boat goes out the door really out to catch that stuff.  I feel sure they've got it sorted by this point.  I'll let you know how the next batch of boats turn out when they arrive in June!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Wess said:

Again, no truer words have ever bee spoken.  Just gotta remove the wiggle! ;)

Beyond that are you really serious about the "dealer will inspect and deal with..." comment as it relates to 10 out of 10 having quality defects?  So now its OK to have a Chinese builder that sucks so bad that 10 out of 10 ILCAs have a quality defect because the dealer will inspect and deal with it???  What happened to ILCA and WS collecting fees to inspect?  How crappy (ie doesn't happen) are those inspections for 10 out of 10 to show up having easy to spot defects?  How about the boats with the multiple defects?  How about all the defects you or the dealer can't see... or do you seriously believe that the Chinese ILCA builder only sucks this bad on the obvious to spot defects and there isn't much more wrong that you can't see?  Do you really think that if they can't do the easy stuff right, they are doing the hard stuff right?  Seriously??

If you want to have an honest discussion then have one.

I am honestly not fussed over 10 missing blocks in an early shipment. Honestly. And I don’t believe it is reflective of the build quality of the boats. Honestly. I bought a half dozen spars from SuperSpar (UK) a few years ago for some ICs and an Osprey here. One of the masts (mine) had the hounds in the wrong place. Shit happens and they sent me a replacement. I didn’t go on a wild rant about their quality. The masts were great. Honestly. And I would buy another SuperSpar without hesitation. I honestly think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well you have as much a right to an opinion as anyone and from what you describe it sounds like in Canada you might not really have much of a choice but to buy the Chinese Zim ILCAs.  I am in a more fortunate position and have a choice.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

My local guy has an order coming in. I will check his experience. Hans Fogh’s boys run Fogh sailing out of Toronto and are selling ZIMs. They won’t put up with any nonsense. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do you think the Zim boats have a missing outhaul block, when there is no minimum number of blocks stipulated in the rules?

My boat is fitted with the original design XD outhaul which only has 5 turning points & in my mind works perfectly.

 

(f) Outhaul – also see Rules 3(a) & 3(b) i. The outhaul system shall consist of a maximum of two control lines, “Optional” blocks or loops for purchase and a maximum of 6 “Turning Points”.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, back to the an ILCA is not really OD boat theme we go.  OK; I agree!

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Wess said:

Well you have as much a right to an opinion as anyone and from what you describe it sounds like in Canada you might not really have much of a choice but to buy the Chinese Zim ILCAs.  I am in a more fortunate position and have a choice.

But I thought you didn't want a choice?

 

If I was still sailing Lasers I would probably choose an Ovi.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Wess said:

Well you have as much a right to an opinion as anyone and from what you describe it sounds like in Canada you might not really have much of a choice but to buy the Chinese Zim ILCAs.  I am in a more fortunate position and have a choice.

If you're in "The Laser" class you have no choices no matter where you live....

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wess said:

Ah, back to the an ILCA is not really OD boat theme we go.  OK; I agree!

Anybody have the original Laser rule book? I recall replacing my tiller and extension with non OEM in 1974. Maybe the boat never was OD (in Wess World). 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, IPLore said:

But I thought you didn't want a choice?

 

If I was still sailing Lasers I would probably choose an Ovi.

Counselor - Have you taken up drinking and smoking that funny stuff in retirement? I have always and always will, advocate for generic sails, generic parts and generic boats.  That would equal true choice!  We agree re Ovi BTW.  That or the highly affordable LPE.  Like a vaccine card you can always find a sticker on line for a few bucks!  ;)

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Wess said:

Counselor - Have you taken up drinking and smoking that funny stuff in retirement? I have always and always will, advocate for generic sails, generic parts and generic boats.  That would equal true choice!  We agree re Ovi BTW.  That or the highly affordable LPE.  Like a vaccine card you can always find a sticker on line for a few bucks!  ;)

Enjoy not working....but find living on an investment portfolio very stressful in these volatile markets

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Enjoy not working....but find living on an investment portfolio very stressful in these volatile markets

Yea for ILCA and the market it does have a bit of that 2008 feel to it.  Don't be doge-ing LOL!!

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Wess said:

What's ya talkin about?  I even got a choice of hiking straps over there!  :D

 

So it's not really a one design?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Get off your knees and sail a Laser from The Laser Class!

You Aero sailors really need to step up your game and learn how to use the quote function.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Wess said:

You Aero sailors really need to step up your game and learn how to use the quote function.

Sorry. Just got back from my first sail since the Trump virus fiasco. Man, the Aero is so much fun.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow that sucks.  If you join The Laser Class you get a free vaccine and are able to ditch the mask.  Never stopped sailing!!  B)

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wess said:

Wow that sucks.  If you join The Laser Class you get a free vaccine and are able to ditch the mask.  Never stopped sailing!!  B)

Of note:

LP/LPE has built boats in China; e.g. Sunfish, and may still be doing so.

Not sure where they are building those old school Lasers right now.

And the free vaccine that Wess advertizes is the Sinopharm one...

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL none of that Chinese shit for me!

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wess

You are a troll. Pure and simple.

One small point. The missing block on the Zim boats was due to the incompetence of a well known marine hardware manufacturer (no names but you should be able to work it out) who were contracted to supply a fittings/rope package pre-packed. These were simply added to each boat unopened. This same problem happened about 6 years ago with LPE, except they supplied over 100 boats with a block missing. I doubt many even knew that happened.

To blame the problem on crap Chinese manufacturing is just more trolling by Wess.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

This forum has got a lot more readable since I put Wess on ignore. I finally decided a few days ago it was the only way to handle the trolling.
Click on the down arrow by your name top right of the page, 
Click on "Ignored Users"
Type "Wess" in the dialogue box, and click the check box against posts in the options that appear.
Result- increased usability.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

As a person whose family and friends have built and sold boats for the last 55 years, I really don’t like buying boats formerly built in the USA and Canada that are now being manufactured in China. 
I do my best to buy American products  or stuff  built in Democratic countries. 
 

Buying stuff I don’t even need from China just seems wrong 

But the US is NOT a fully democratic country. According to the EIU the US has a flawed democracy. (If you are truly interested in democracy, then you should be familiar with this annual report: https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/democracy-index-2020.pdf)

So by your reasoning, (and because I am from a full democracy), should I boycott buying US products?

Because you are in favor of democracy, should you (Gouv) boycott US made products?

It is interesting that democracy (the measure) has mostly increased in China since its low points under Mao. (China is not a democratic country, but all countries can have their level of democracy and freedoms measured, including North Korea). The human rights conditions in my stong view have increased in China over the last few decades (with the exception of the clampdown after Tiananmen Square.) Part of the reason conditions have improved is BECAUSE of trade.

Boycotts and trade wars hurt the people instead of the leaders, and seldom have the desired effect to improve democracy or human rights.

For me, I am nuts about democracy. I am literally willing to spend hours debating the issues. I am also generally in favor of regulated multinational trade agreements, ones that require better trade practices - because the alternative is for big business to make a nonsense of bilateral agreements of the past.

Just because your neighbor has a poorly designed garden, and because you think yours is better, doesn't mean that it is a good idea to diss your neighbors garden, it just make you seem like a prat. Frankly, in the case of the US, your garden is also poorly designed. And I am happy to eat produce from both - and with humility - even though my nation's garden is better designed. This is not a pissing contest, its real life, and trade wars sometimes turn into real wars.

I'm wondering if non-PSA boats will make it into New Zealand. I will assess future purchases on the quality of build and price (in that order). I will not rule out any country.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bruce Hudson said:

But the US is NOT a fully democratic country. According to the EIU the US has a flawed democracy.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

For me, I am nuts about democracy. I am literally willing to spend hours debating the issues.

Take it to PA cunt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Randorm said:

Take it to PA cunt.

Whatever makes you think my words already don't make it to the PA. 

Thank you for your name calling. Was it your intention to promote yourself as someone who promotes themselves as having flawed judgments? If yes, job well done.

And by the way, I am posting under my real name. I stand behind what I say. I hope one day you become brave enough to do the same. :) 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah Simon my feelings would be hurt if I thought you smarter than a stump or cared about your views LOL.

I am just trying to collect on the rum that Robbie owes me for ILCA's screw-ups.

And have fun trolling you.

  • Like 2
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Thank you for calling me a cunt.

 

tenor.gif

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Wess said:

Ah Simon my feelings would be hurt if I thought you smarter than a stump or cared about your views LOL.

I am just trying to collect on the rum that Robbie owes me for ILCA's screw-ups.

And have fun trolling you.

Wait- the bet was about screw ups?  I thought it had more to do with the end of the class, no new builders, continued poor supply issues and outrageous prices....Actually, someone posted the original bet a on page 106 and tallied the wins/losses between the betters.  Seemed like I was in the winners column? 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Wait- the bet was about screw ups?  I thought it had more to do with the end of the class, no new builders, continued poor supply issues and outrageous prices....Actually, someone posted the original bet a on page 106 and tallied the wins/losses between the betters.  Seemed like I was in the winners column? 

LOL that was cheatin Bill and you guys changed that bet so many times.  If you recall at your and others insistence that bet ended up being 1.) it wont be soon, 2. ) it wont be cheaper, and 3.) it wont be made in America.  And I believe that is three strikes and you are out (hopefully not as a member of the Yankees where 8 vaccinated team members got covid... maybe they took the Chinese vaccine??)!!

Me and my The Laser Class hiking strap and sail would like our rum now please.

I will share some with you given you are pulling off successful gybes in 30 knots of breeze in a full rig (giving your lemming status I should say pic or it didn't happen but will take you at your word)... that wasn't happenin in my best days and they are long past!

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wess said:

LOL that was cheatin Bill and you guys changed that bet so many times.  If you recall at your and others insistence that bet ended up being 1.) it wont be soon, 2. ) it wont be cheaper, and 3.) it wont be made in America.  And I believe that is three strikes and you are out (hopefully not as a member of the Yankees where 8 vaccinated team members got covid... maybe they took the Chinese vaccine??)!!

Me and my The Laser Class hiking strap and sail would like our rum now please.

What a yarn! You lost the bet, Wess.  No longer Wess the Wiggler, now Wess the Welcher! And I wasn’t part of the bet, so I don’t get any of the spoils. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

What a yarn! You lost the bet, Wess.  No longer Wess the Wiggler, now Wess the Welcher! And I wasn’t part of the bet, so I don’t get any of the spoils. 

Ha cheatin Bill. You are fibbing again said the yam to the turnip.  Just like an ILCA lemming.  And I never offered you any of the spoils.  I offered that to Robbie. I offered you a multihull ride if you ever escape that land of ice and snow and covid and come down here to the land of the free and the brave. So you can watch Robbie and I drink the rum Robbie owes me while sailing faster than any of us will ever go on an expensive, Chinese, non-OD, ILCA!!  :D

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Ha cheatin Bill. You are fibbing again said the yam to the turnip.  Just like an ILCA lemming.  And I never offered you any of the spoils.  I offered that to Robbie. I offered you a multihull ride if you ever escape that land of ice and snow and covid and come down here to the land of the free and the brave. So you can watch Robbie and I drink rum the rum Robbie owes me while sailing faster tha any of us will ever go on an expensive, Chinese, non-OD, ILCA!!  :D

Yam? I said y a r n. You owe lots of people drinks. Robbie’s rum would be a simple courtesy to the yacht owner. Any resemblance to his paying off a bet would be purely coincidental. Welcher.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

You got brain freeze my friend. Go south!  Even in your twisted version I won. Way back in the day of the bet they still were not cheaper (remember the $10k PSA boats) and there was a lawsuit and even you can’t claim that 2 years and soon are the same thing. 

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Wess said:

You got brain freeze my friend. Go south!  Even in your twisted version I won. Way back in the day of the bet they still were not cheaper (remember the $10k PSA boats) and there was a lawsuit and even you can’t claim that 2 years and soon are the same thing. 

Repeat. Price - you win. Supply - you lose. Quality - you lose. Lawsuit - anything new post bet date? (You can’t bet on something pre-existing). Welch job. Tsk tsk

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Robbie’s rum would be a simple courtesy to the yacht owner. Any resemblance to his paying off a bet would be purely coincidental. 

Well I think it's just the proper thing to do when excepting a ride on someone's fine boat.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wess said:

You got brain freeze my friend. Go south!  Even in your twisted version I won. Way back in the day of the bet they still were not cheaper (remember the $10k PSA boats) and there was a lawsuit and even you can’t claim that 2 years and soon are the same thing. 

The $10k PSA's was a great example of someone taking advantage of a free market, (supply vs demand) situation.  The result of multiple builders has played out as expected and brought those prices down back to the level LPE was last selling boats for when they were still the class supplier.  2 full years ago now? Considering everything that went down it's not really that long ago and the ILCA class has rebounded nicely. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

Of note:

LP/LPE has built boats in China; e.g. Sunfish, and may still be doing so.

Not sure where they are building those old school Lasers right now.

And the free vaccine that Wess advertizes is the Sinopharm one...

 

I believe they tried that a couple of years ago but had to scrap it due to quality control issues.  If I had to guess, Sunfish are now being built at LPE's Fiberglass Technology Center of Excellence in Portugal.  No idea on the class illegal Lasers.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

The $10k PSA's was a great example of someone taking advantage of a free market, (supply vs demand) situation.

Um, no. That is the cost of an Australian based boutique manufacture, building quality Lasers in small numbers (approx 400 per year, usually fewer). That is the cost we in New Zealand have been paying for quite a few years for PSA Lasers (now ILCAs).

Right now, the price has gone down a bit, more when you realize that the new price includes the composite top section.

The current price is NZ$12,900 (Approx US $9,350). By the time you add freight to the US, the US$10,000 PSA boats are a similar cost to what we have been paying for Lasers for years. 

image.thumb.png.3c595fc8e0145672ebe0fe599fc5548c.png

---

I thought I would check the prices in Australia to see the difference. Here Laser direct is listing Laser for A$12,320 (US$9,585)

image.png.2927f5d3d87504be291d22bdfae82e5f.png

(I've used today's exchange rates which have fluctuated about 10% in recent years.)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, torrid said:

I believe they tried that a couple of years ago but had to scrap it due to quality control issues. 

Quality control issues in China? Are you sure? :ph34r:

This is lighthearted poking btw, please don’t be offended!

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

Quality control issues in China? Are you sure? :ph34r:

This is lighthearted poking btw, please don’t be offended!

Just give a little bit. Because being even a little racist counts.

Just being a tiny bit racist will help keep racism alive!

Hope you don't mind me poking fun at your 'joke' btw, it is just me being lighthearted. Please do not be offended!

 

 

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

Grow up Bruce - it was in reference to the earlier conversation not a slight on a nation.  

Grow up Board skiff. Mine was in reference to a centuries old tradition you appear to be perpetuating, not a slight on you personally. Besides, I told you not to be offended, so its OK, right?

Actually, I don't get the funny part to your joke. Can you please explain it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

Teaching a sense of humour is notoriously difficult.

I imagine it particularly is when it is a tiny bit racist. :) 

But please do explain, if you can.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bruce, deserved or not, China has had a reputation for making low quality products. That is simply a fact - there are countless academic papers on the subject.  This is not to deny that an increasing number of high quality Chinese products are also available. 
Recognising the reality of this reputation and linking it lightheartedly to an earlier conversation about Chinese built boats does not a racist make. 
Now, explain to me why referring to oneself as a Kiwi is okay when it is appropriation of language of an oppressed people and unsympathetic to the plight of a bird endangered by European settlers. 
 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Board skiff said:

Bruce, deserved or not, China has had a reputation for making low quality products. That is simply a fact - there are countless academic papers on the subject.  This is not to deny that an increasing number of high quality Chinese products are also available. 
Recognising the reality of this reputation and linking it lightheartedly to an earlier conversation about Chinese built boats does not a racist make. 
Now, explain to me why referring to oneself as a Kiwi is okay when it is appropriation of language of an oppressed people and unsympathetic to the plight of a bird endangered by European settlers. 

Thank you Board skiff for expressing your opinion which supports your stereotype. What I asked you to explain was what makes that funny. Laughing at, or making fun of the reputation of an entire nation is what in my view makes your comment a tiny bit racist.

Still, I don't think you have explained what is funny. 

Look, I get that you have free speech, and you may even think that I am being a little bit sensitive. I actually support your right to be a tiny bit racist.

I also am exercising my free speech, and you are being sensitive. I appreciate that nobody likes learning that they are being a little racist. I freely admit that I definitely didn't like it when I inadvertently did. But then, I used that to grow. What you may find unpalatable Board skiff is that I am on solid ground here. I'm not saying that the stereotype is false. What I am saying is that making fun of an entire people because of an attribute, feature, or stereotype is.

Hope you get over your sensitivity and grow. 

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Outta here.  Week end cruise. Bye bye lemmings.  Send your money to ILCA and sail some Chinese POS so ILCA can grow ILCA sailing in China.  Because that will benefit most of you here.  Ha ha ha ha...

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Thank you Board skiff...

You are very welcome. Now, about that Kiwi thing and then we can get back to discussing the need to making ILCAs 90% recyclable by 2028. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Just a few random options.

1) Is China a democracy NO, Are personal rights and human rights slowly getting better over the last 40 years YES But not quick enough.

2) is USA a democracy YES , but does it have its faults YES. 
 

3) Does China produce some of the best high quality goods in the world YES. Does it also produce some of the worst quality copy’s of these goods also YES.

 

 

I was going to post a long sermon on how very few things are black or white and most things are just shades of grey .

THEN I REMEMBERED WHAT FORUM I WAS POSTING ON …….. :D
 

 

Edited by Xeon
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Been informed by a very reliable source that LPE has filed for the British version of liquidation. Not confirmed fact, but, source is strong.
 

Could just be a corporate / shell move like Farzad did with the buggy company.... fold up one company, open another, blah blah.  (moving legally from UK to PT in this specific case)
 

Anyone know more?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Board skiff said:

You are very welcome. Now, about that Kiwi thing and then we can get back to discussing the need to making ILCAs 90% recyclable by 2028. 

I confirm that you are unwilling or unable to explain your joke. 

Make you a deal, you explain what was funny, and I'll give you my thoughts on what you call the 'kiwi thing'.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Xeon said:

2) is USA a democracy YES , but does it have its faults YES. 

What is crucial here is that the US is not a full democracy, according to the EIU. 

Also, it is worth noting that in the context of the EIU report, democracy is a measure that can be applied to any nation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I confirm that you are unwilling or unable to explain your joke. 

Make you a deal, you explain what was funny, and I'll give you my thoughts on what you call the 'kiwi thing'.

Uh, I didn’t make a joke... but I did get some amusement from the irony that the quality of Chinese built ILCAs was being debated as someone else pointed out that LPE withdrew production from China on quality grounds.  There we go, your turn.  Make it good.

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

Uh, I didn’t make a joke... but I did get some amusement from the irony that the quality of Chinese built ILCAs was being debated as someone else pointed out that LPE withdrew production from China on quality grounds.  There we go, your turn.  Make it good.

Ok, so it was "amusement" and not a joke. Confirming that you found it amusing does explain how it amuses.

Besides, what you describe above is different to your original statement: "Quality control issues in China? Are you sure?"

The implication is that the Chinese (the nation and therefore the people) have greater issues than others with quality. (You confirmed this with your subsequent comments). I am asking you to explain what you find humourous/amusing/funny about your original statement.

Joke is my word. Amusing is yours. The point is that you have yet to say how what you originally said 'amuses', or how it is funny, or as I asked, what the joke is. Your more recent attempt is great to hear, and may have even been what you intended to originally say - but it wasn't what you actually said.

Explain how what you originally said was amusing, and I will give you my opinion on the 'kiwi thing'.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BlatantEcho said:

Been informed by a very reliable source that LPE has filed for the British version of liquidation. Not confirmed fact, but, source is strong.
 

Could just be a corporate / shell move like Farzad did with the buggy company.... fold up one company, open another, blah blah.  (moving legally from UK to PT in this specific case)
 

Anyone know more?

Isn't this off topic?

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Board skiff said:

@Bruce Hudsoni have explained as much as I can. If you can’t see where a wry smile might creep in that is more to do with you than me.
 

You are a lame troll and stalling re the kiwi thing. 

Kiwis are reclusive, nocturnal birds and have little interaction with humans outside of controlled environments. As a result, they have yet to develop a sense of humor or the ability to engage in anything like a rational debate with humans.

kiwibirdgeno.jpg


Kiwis are also fruits.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRF2GRlNBWfHdmV11D5ulG

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bruce, you normally post such balanced posts. But you really need to drop this . You have taken offence when not offence was offered . 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Board skiff said:

@Bruce Hudsoni have explained as much as I can. If you can’t see where a wry smile might creep in that is more to do with you than me.
 

You are a lame troll and stalling re the kiwi thing. 

No, you haven't. You choose not to explain why you find "Quality control issues in China? Are you sure?" amusing. I'm completely underwhelmed with your efforts.

I've explained that I don't find it funny because in my view your statement is a tiny bit racist. I find this a tiny bit racist because it pokes fun at a race of people. Isn't that what being a tiny bit racist is?

I'm fine if you give up. I'm true to my word, I'll comment on the kiwi thing if you actually make an effort. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL.  You are such a waster.  I have explained in pretty basic terms what my - already easy to understand - statement meant. It is the irony that LPE had and then stopped having (on quality grounds) a Chinese manufacturer, given that there was an ongoing discussion around the quality of Chinese ILCAs. I really don’t know how to make that any clearer.  
 

It’s your choice to be unamused. I don’t have to convince you it’s funny anymore than you have to convince me that NZ sitcoms are funny.

But I’m not at all surprised you have reneged on your deal.  Shows the mark of the man when he doesn’t keep his word.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Board skiff said:

LOL.  You are such a waster.  I have explained in pretty basic terms what my - already easy to understand - statement meant. It is the irony that LPE had and then stopped having (on quality grounds) a Chinese manufacturer, given that there was an ongoing discussion around the quality of Chinese ILCAs. I really don’t know how to make that any clearer.  
 

It’s your choice to be unamused. I don’t have to convince you it’s funny anymore than you have to convince me that NZ sitcoms are funny.

But I’m not at all surprised you have reneged on your deal.  Shows the mark of the man when he doesn’t keep his word.  

Again, you are explaining what you imagined what you said, not what you actually said.

What you said was "Quality control issues in China? Are you sure?"

Then: "This is lighthearted poking btw, please don't be offended".

I think deep down you knew what you said was a tiny bit racist.

You may have meant all that stuff about LP, but you didn't say it. In context, you responded about a specific comment about a manufacturer, then in my view applied the quality issue to a whole nation. 

I haven't reneged on the deal. I am clear that I have yet to be satisfied with your efforts to explain. I offer this to you: if I am satisfied that you have made an effort to what you actually said (not what you intended to say), then I shall make good on my offer to comment on the 'kiwi thing'.

Go back through eight years of comments, and I challenge you to find other instances where I did not follow through where I said I would do something. 

I get it Board skiff, having someone point out what you said as being slightly racist is uncomfortable. Note that I am commenting on what you actually said, not what it appears you intended to say.

Attacking me or my country speaks more to your character than mine or my country's.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Kiwis are reclusive, nocturnal birds and have little interaction with humans outside of controlled environments. As a result, they have yet to develop a sense of humor or the ability to engage in anything like a rational debate with humans.

kiwibirdgeno.jpg


Kiwis are also fruits.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRF2GRlNBWfHdmV11D5ulG

And shoe polish 

image.jpeg.571b90b2022add66463f12ca8c25298f.jpeg

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Board skiff said:

I don’t have to convince you it’s funny anymore than you have to convince me that NZ sitcoms are funny.

I never asked you to convince me what you said is funny, I asked you to explain what you found funny.

You still haven't. 

You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

What you said was "Quality control issues in China? Are you sure?"

You took one person's comment and applied it to a whole nation - so context is no argument.

I will make good on my offer if I am satisfied you make an honest attempt to explain what you actually said. I will accept that if you say that it wasn't what you intended to say, and in fact may be justifiably interpreted by others as a tiny bit racist. (I'm making it very easy for you Board skiff).

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I never asked you to convince me what you said is funny, I asked you to explain what you found funny.

You still haven't. 

You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

What you said was "Quality control issues in China? Are you sure?"

You took one person's comment and applied it to a whole nation - so context is no argument.

I will make good on my offer if I am satisfied you make an honest attempt to explain what you actually said. I will accept that if you say that it wasn't what you intended to say, and in fact may be justifiably interpreted by others as a tiny bit racist. (I'm making it very easy for you Board skiff).

Please stop. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I never asked you to convince me what you said is funny, I asked you to explain what you found funny.

You still haven't. 

You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

What you said was "Quality control issues in China? Are you sure?"

You took one person's comment and applied it to a whole nation - so context is no argument.

I will make good on my offer if I am satisfied you make an honest attempt to explain what you actually said. I will accept that if you say that it wasn't what you intended to say, and in fact may be justifiably interpreted by others as a tiny bit racist. (I'm making it very easy for you Board skiff).

It certainly reads as at least potentially racist so I agree with you Bruce. Irony is there is a high possibility it was typed on an Apple product pretty much ALL of which are manufactured in China. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites