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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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35 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Anybody  know who fixes these??

PROPERLY!!!

 

 

9D0B5D3E-28E2-4A7C-BE48-1868B2B631E4.jpeg

 

Real proper permanently 'fixed'.

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20 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Anyway, let's get back to Wess' bet and see where we stand. Here is what Wess said:

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Results

Higher prices: There can be some debate - as different geographies have different experiences, but straight up the price has gone up. Win: Wess

Supply problems: No need to comment. Win: Robbie, Tracey and others, handily.

Quality problems: So far, one leaky bailer. LPE had quality problems well before all this. PSA were already producing higher quality boats, and there in no reason to believe the other builders will put out a quality product. Win: Robbie, Tracy and others, handily. 

Lawsuit: Has there been a new lawsuit post "SMOD LPE world"?

So it's either a 3-1 win for Robbie, Tracey and others, or a tie. And the tie would go to Robbie, Tracey and others just because Wess can be such a dick. 

Interesting.  I could not muster the energy to ever search for the "original" bet terms....

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On 5/7/2021 at 11:55 AM, Wess said:

LOL what % of Laser sailors join ILCA again?

Can't wait to see the lies this generates!

Agreed this will be interesting.  US District 12 has seen a big increase in membership during the past 2 years.  

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29 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Interesting.  I could not muster the energy to ever search for the "original" bet terms....

I stumbled across it looking for something else. Total fluke I found it. 

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A side point, initial testing of the Mark 3 ILCA 7 sail looks like quite a grunty rig, which is likely to slightly raise the optimum weight.

The Mk 2 has only been out a couple of years and already a Mk3 is on the cards.  Anyone got any details?  Potentially good news for all the disgruntled Finn boys...

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5 hours ago, Board skiff said:

The Mk 2 has only been out a couple of years and already a Mk3 is on the cards.  Anyone got any details?  Potentially good news for all the disgruntled Finn boys...

I can’t see them making a new sail that would up the optimum rate.

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31 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I can’t see them making a new sail that would up the optimum rate.

After the last few years, nothing would surprise me.  
 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

After the last few years, nothing would surprise me.  
 

Changing the sail to accommodate heavyweights? No chance. Rum bet? 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Changing the sail to accommodate heavyweights? No chance. Rum bet? 

How about a 9 meter sail?

 

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12 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Changing the sail to accommodate heavyweights? No chance. Rum bet? 

there's been talk of this for years and Rooster put out a rig.  Don't think it ever got much traction.  The biggest "scare" we've had to date are the "c" rigs which I personally hope never see the light of day.

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12 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

there's been talk of this for years and Rooster put out a rig.  Don't think it ever got much traction.  The biggest "scare" we've had to date are the "c" rigs which I personally hope never see the light of day.

The have a small following in the UK, I think they even had nationals for a few years. (2007 - 2014?)

https://www.sail-world.com/class/Rooster-8.1/

tune5.gif

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The comments was regarding a Mark 3 for the ILCA 7. Not making an ILCA 9. So a modification in the shape of the present sail to make it better for bigger boys. I say no way.

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47 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

The comments was regarding a Mark 3 for the ILCA 7. Not making an ILCA 9. So a modification in the shape of the present sail to make it better for bigger boys. I say no way.

Bigger boys need bigger sails. The ILCA needs to attract all those big boy Finn sailors who are all sad about not being in the Olympics any more.

I did sail the Rooster 8.1 at Minorca Sailing one year. Very nice option for lighter wind days.

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A larger sail is a different topic than a Mark 3 for the ILCA 7 sail. An ILCA 9 would be a new class - like the ILCA 5 and ILCA 6 (4.7 and Radial). How is the Aero 9 doing for the bigger boys?

 

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26 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

A larger sail is a different topic than a Mark 3 for the ILCA 7 sail. An ILCA 9 would be a new class - like the ILCA 5 and ILCA 6 (4.7 and Radial). How is the Aero 9 doing for the bigger boys?

 

Yeah, I get it. The 9-rig for the RS Aero is proving very popular.  Some heavier, fitter and/or more skillful sailors use it most of the time. But I would guess that many more sailors use a 9 rig in lighter conditions and a 7 rig in the heavier stuff. At major regattas, the 7 rig is usually the largest class.

In both classes the availability of 3 rigs broadens the appeal of the boat enormously. But I hear a lot of complaining from the Finn class that they are too heavy to transition to an ILCA 7 after the Finn is kicked out of the Olympics. Surely ILCA are thinking about how to attract those dudes to the ILCA?

There has been discussion of an extra rig for the Aero. Some prototype 6 rigs were even available at the trials in Valencia 2 years ago if it turned out that the 7 rig was too large for the average woman Olympic sailor, but the RS Aero won the trials anyway without needing to deploy their secret weapon.

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19 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Yeah, I get it. The 9-rig for the RS Aero is proving very popular.  Some heavier, fitter and/or more skillful sailors use it most of the time. But I would guess that many more sailors use a 9 rig in lighter conditions and a 7 rig in the heavier stuff. At major regattas, the 7 rig is usually the largest class.

In both classes the availability of 3 rigs broadens the appeal of the boat enormously. But I hear a lot of complaining from the Finn class that they are too heavy to transition to an ILCA 7 after the Finn is kicked out of the Olympics. Surely ILCA are thinking about how to attract those dudes to the ILCA?

There has been discussion of an extra rig for the Aero. Some prototype 6 rigs were even available at the trials in Valencia 2 years ago if it turned out that the 7 rig was too large for the average woman Olympic sailor, but the RS Aero won the trials anyway without needing to deploy their secret weapon.

If there was a market, I am sure ILCA and manufacturers would be interested. But if it was Olympics these guys are most concerned about, it wasn't the Finn that was kicked out so much as the "big guy" event. There would need to be more trials if the IOC wanted to reconstitute. Maybe the Aero 9 would get in. 

Oh - and as you know - the Aero finished second in two of the three actual sailing parts of the selection. Just sayin'. And I completely see how it won the Appeal part. Too bad there aren't any within 600 miles of here to actually take a look and go for a ride. Or race as a fleet. (You started it...^_^)

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Dang you folks need to get a life and go sailing.  A whole new page over a weekend.  Geeze!

Bill - I admit you do crack me up.  First you repost question after question (what other class) when its clear that its this class I am interested in and besides if you want a serious discussion that is a two way street.  You duck and play both sides of the fence so why should I not play too.  My gosh man on one hand you argue the changes made no difference (they do and any decent and honest Laser sailor would admit that, come on) and then you jump the fence and argue it doesn't matter because other OD classes change.  OK, whatever.  But the simple truth is you gotta spends thousands to upgrade an older used Laser to be competitive even at the club level (and even approaching thousand to take a basic ILCA up to the racing standard so it is OD and you are on a level playing field).  And that is how the class (and mfgs) make theior money. But this one below...  ho ho ho...  your best fence jump ever!!

On 5/9/2021 at 12:36 PM, Bill5 said:

Anyway, let's get back to Wess' bet and see where we stand. Here is what Wess said:

image.png.85b38fb8d04ecb499a62b9ab3554b47b.png

Results

Higher prices: There can be some debate - as different geographies have different experiences, but straight up the price has gone up. Win: Wess

Supply problems: No need to comment. Win: Robbie, Tracey and others, handily.

Quality problems: So far, one leaky bailer. LPE had quality problems well before all this. PSA were already producing higher quality boats, and there in no reason to believe the other builders will put out a quality product. Win: Robbie, Tracy and others, handily. 

Lawsuit: Has there been a new lawsuit post "SMOD LPE world"?

So it's either a 3-1 win for Robbie, Tracey and others, or a tie. And the tie would go to Robbie, Tracey and others just because Wess can be such a dick. 

That bet is what about 2 years old.  And way back then y'all complained that there already was a lawsuit (so unfair to you... BTW I think but not sure there still is... LPE talked appeal)and you said quality could not be measured (uh the many problems with Chinese boats have already been noted by others but I agreed to drop this as well at y'all's request, and the final bet was still a 3 part... of... it wont be "soon" (ILCA's word), there wont be NA builder, and they wont be cheaper.  And for the record near 2 years ain't soon, PSA came in at about $10K compared to LPE which was at about $6500 so it wasn't cheap, and there still ain't a NA builder. 

And here comes the best part... now after saying it was unfair to have the lawsuit component in because it was then active, you now argue (how many post from you and Robbie on this...) that the bet ain't decided yet because it will all happen with time.  Still not getting how 2 years ever becomes soon or 10K was cheaper than 6.5K or that a US assembler for a Chinese builder is actually a NA builder but have at it!

Hell, I am still waiting to hear have you have the majority when the majority of Laser sailors or even racers do not join ILCA.  They pointedly ignore them and use generic sails and generic parts and increasingly generic boats. Which has been my interest if we are being serious.

Have a nice day!!

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Still not getting how 2 years ever becomes soon or 10K was cheaper than 6.5K or that a US assembler for a Chinese builder is actually a NA builder but have at it!

PSA were selling the Laser for about US$9500 in NZ in 2018. Inflation globally has been just over 3% per year. 

LP were cutting corners. Cheaper was definitely not better. 

I'm all for not giving Wess nothin'. ;) 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Dang you folks need to get a life and go sailing.  A whole new page over a weekend.  Geeze!

I sailed this past Saturday.  Blew so dang hard, (gusting 30) that sailing DW I tried to over trim the main and couldn't pull it in.  Jumped the wave in front of me and totally submerged into the back of the next one.  Can't believe I didn't capsize or break anything.  Must have been the composite top section that kept it all together! 

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Just now, RobbieB said:

I sailed this past Saturday.  Blew so dang hard, (gusting 30) that sailing DW I tried to over trim the main and couldn't pull it in.  Jumped the wave in front of me and totally submerged into the back of the next one.  Can't believe I didn't capsize or break anything.  Must have been the composite top section that kept it all together! 

Full rig? Nevermind the section its just impressive to keep it upright in those conditions DDW.  The gybe at the LW mark must have been fun. 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Dang you folks need to get a life and go sailing.  A whole new page over a weekend.  Geeze!

Bill - I admit you do crack me up.  First you repost question after question (what other class) when its clear that its this class I am interested in and besides if you want a serious discussion that is a two way street.  You duck and play both sides of the fence so why should I not play too.  My gosh man on one hand you argue the changes made no difference (they do and any decent and honest Laser sailor would admit that, come on) and then you jump the fence and argue it doesn't matter because other OD classes change.  OK, whatever.  But the simple truth is you gotta spends thousands to upgrade an older used Laser to be competitive even at the club level (and even approaching thousand to take a basic ILCA up to the racing standard so it is OD and you are on a level playing field).  And that is how the class (and mfgs) make theior money. But this one below...  ho ho ho...  your best fence jump ever!!

That bet is what about 2 years old.  And way back then y'all complained that there already was a lawsuit (so unfair to you... BTW I think but not sure there still is... LPE talked appeal)and you said quality could not be measured (uh the many problems with Chinese boats have already been noted by others but I agreed to drop this as well at y'all's request, and the final bet was still a 3 part... of... it wont be "soon" (ILCA's word), there wont be NA builder, and they wont be cheaper.  And for the record near 2 years ain't soon, PSA came in at about $10K compared to LPE which was at about $6500 so it wasn't cheap, and there still ain't a NA builder. 

And here comes the best part... now after saying it was unfair to have the lawsuit component in because it was then active, you now argue (how many post from you and Robbie on this...) that the bet ain't decided yet because it will all happen with time.  Still not getting how 2 years ever becomes soon or 10K was cheaper than 6.5K or that a US assembler for a Chinese builder is actually a NA builder but have at it!

Hell, I am still waiting to hear have you have the majority when the majority of Laser sailors or even racers do not join ILCA.  They pointedly ignore them and use generic sails and generic parts and increasingly generic boats. Which has been my interest if we are being serious.

Have a nice day!!

I always have nice days, Wess. And your posts always bring a nice smile to my my face!

- all one designs make changes (other than those you listed)

- Laser improvements were for efficiency and/or durability. They did not change the speed of the boat. One can get around the course quicker because they can change gears at will and handle the boat more effectively.

- improvements cost money and you have to improve any old boat to compete - not just an old Laser. $4000 for new sails on my old Lightning for which I paid $3000 (all CAD)

- you lost the bet (note I wasn't part of it, so you don't owe me any rum)

- I don't care if people use generics at the club, and I  don't get fired up if people aren't ILCA members.

Hope to sail this weekend - snowed this past weekend. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Laser improvements were for get around the course quicker

 

Well after removing all your wiggle words it took 107 pages, but you finally spoke some truth.  Indeed you "get around the course quicker" with the upgrades.  So pay your money to ILCA and the mfgs if you really want to "get around the course quicker" and be on an equal and true OD footing.

Oh and no I don't think you can buy your way through gear improvements to getting around the course quicker in most any other true OD class.  Unless you are paying pros to sail your boat.  B)

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Well after removing all your wiggle words it took 107 pages, but you finally spoke some truth.  Indeed you "get around the course quicker" with the upgrades.  So pay your money to ILCA and the mfgs if you really want to "get around the course quicker" and be on an equal and true OD footing.

Oh and no I don't think you can buy your way through gear improvements to getting around the course quicker in most any other true OD class.  Unless you are paying pros to sail your boat.  B)

Hah! No ten people combined can out wiggle you, Wes. You are the King Wiggler. 
Your second comment seems very, very wrong. But tell me what “true” OD classes you speak of so we can have a conversation. 

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39 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Hah! No ten people combined can out wiggle you, Wes. You are the King Wiggler. 
Your second comment seems very, very wrong. But tell me what “true” OD classes you speak of so we can have a conversation. 

If you are ever in Naps look us up and we will go multihull sailing. And in honor of you (you can say me) the boat shall be renamed SV Wiggles for the day. That or SV Canadian Lawnmower! But just for the day because I would like to stay married. We can bring a Laser (not some Chinese ILCA POS) along as a dinghy. If and only if you bring rum. 

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27 minutes ago, Wess said:

If you are ever in Naps look us up and we will go multihull sailing. And in honor of you (you can say me) the boat shall be renamed SV Wiggles for the day. That or SV Canadian Lawnmower! But just for the day because I would like to stay married. We can bring a Laser (not some Chinese ILCA POS) along as a dinghy. If and only if you bring rum. 

I take Naps!

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22 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I take Naps!

Depending on the quality of the rum you bring we may both!

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The irony of it of-course is that the great bulk of the US inter-varsity C420's are Zou boats, so here you are, preaching the use of non Chinese products when your smartest and future leaders are all playing around in exactly what your railing against.

Take the badges off, I doubt you will be able to tell the difference.   Be they C420's or ILCA's.

And unless you specifically ask then, probably all the ILCA's (and definitely the LPE's) will have considerable Chinese components from CSM, through all the foam cores (which are all made in one place in northern China, for all boats) down to probably the nuts and bolts.

If you do ask, then probably it's impossible (because of the foam, supply) to actually get a "zero Asian component boat".    Probably impossible to get a "zero Asian component" manufactured anything to be honest.

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It cracks me up what sets people off and triggers them. China. Go figure. I guess some love their stuff. And Julian please go right ahead and buy it. But I would take an Ovi at a premium. Or an LPE at a discount. And the comments about the many and repeated quality defects on the Chinese ILCA boats (made by lemmings BTW not me) explains why. But please do go ahead. And give me the same right (to not). Hell I even like new innovative rigs... on non OD non established classes. You do you. I’ll do me. And after many years I have had enough of ILCA’s BS and China’s too! You send em YOUR money. I’ll keep mine!

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Gouv- Swiss Watch Technical in Lititz (?) Pa used to (20 plus years ago).  We (Afterguard Marine) used to import them.  If you find someone, let me know, I have two of them upstairs in my dresser drawer, neither have worked for 20 years. Thanks- Barry--  Watch is the Aquastar Regate

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

It cracks me up what sets people off and triggers them. China. Go figure. I guess some love their stuff. And Julian please go right ahead and buy it. But I would take an Ovi at a premium. Or an LPE at a discount. And the comments about the many and repeated quality defects on the Chinese ILCA boats (made by lemmings BTW not me) explains why. But please do go ahead. And give me the same right (to not). Hell I even like new innovative rigs... on non OD non established classes. You do you. I’ll do me. And after many years I have had enough of ILCA’s BS and China’s too! You send em YOUR money. I’ll keep mine!

I'm not asking you to buy anything.   Go back and check.   The fact that your brethren are and have been doing so for many years has nothing to do with me or my urging!

All I am point out is the hypocrisy of some of the comments made by some contributors.

And yes, I will continue to source from where I can get the best solution, rather than arbitrarily exclude some.

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And all I am point out is per lemmings here it was reported that 10 out of 10 Chinese ILCAs had quality defects.  And the very organization that claims to be inspecting these builders (cough cough) apparently managed to post a pic announcing the Chinese builder could not even mount the bow cleat properly.  Can't make this stuff up. I mean ILCA and WS already collects fees to do these inspections (yea right I believe that)... maybe they should add another fee so they can inspect the photos!  :lol:

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April 26th, other thread, if its not been deleted or edited.  From post #1 "one of the outhaul package blocks was missing from every boat"

For gosh sakes man its coming from the lemming lovers. These ain't my words, they are from your camp.

So glad the ILCA inspection picked up on that... not LOL!!

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24 minutes ago, Wess said:

April 26th, other thread, if its not been deleted or edited.  From post #1 "one of the outhaul package blocks was missing from every boat"

For gosh sakes man its coming from the lemming lovers. These ain't my words, they are from your camp.

So glad the ILCA inspection picked up on that... not LOL!!

Any decent local dealer will inspect boats on arrival and deal with a missing outhaul block. Did these boats get delivered directly from China to the site?  I might be wrong, but I am thinking the ILCA inspection doesn’t include the shipping dock. Or the reception area. If ten boats all leaked I would certainly have an issue. 

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17 hours ago, Wess said:

Full rig? Nevermind the section its just impressive to keep it upright in those conditions DDW.  The gybe at the LW mark must have been fun. 

Yeah.  Full.  Normally I would have sat on shore and had a beverage, but the venue for the ACC's and time of year is prime for that kind of breeze.  Actually pulled off a few gybes.  Just gotta make sure your moving as fast as possible and swing it over.  I was surprised I avoided the capsize as well!

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20 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Any decent local dealer will inspect boats on arrival and deal with a missing outhaul block. Did these boats get delivered directly from China to the site?  I might be wrong, but I am thinking the ILCA inspection doesn’t include the shipping dock. Or the reception area. If ten boats all leaked I would certainly have an issue. 

He's fairly new to the boat and kids were anxious for the boats so I think he had the trailer take them straight to the YC and they had an unpacking and rigging party all together.  

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

 I am thinking the ILCA inspection doesn’t

Again, no truer words have ever bee spoken.  Just gotta remove the wiggle! ;)

Beyond that are you really serious about the "dealer will inspect and deal with..." comment as it relates to 10 out of 10 having quality defects?  So now its OK to have a Chinese builder that sucks so bad that 10 out of 10 ILCAs have a quality defect because the dealer will inspect and deal with it???  What happened to ILCA and WS collecting fees to inspect?  How crappy (ie doesn't happen) are those inspections for 10 out of 10 to show up having easy to spot defects?  How about the boats with the multiple defects?  How about all the defects you or the dealer can't see... or do you seriously believe that the Chinese ILCA builder only sucks this bad on the obvious to spot defects and there isn't much more wrong that you can't see?  Do you really think that if they can't do the easy stuff right, they are doing the hard stuff right?  Seriously??

If you want to have an honest discussion then have one.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Any decent local dealer will inspect boats on arrival and deal with a missing outhaul block. Did these boats get delivered directly from China to the site?  I might be wrong, but I am thinking the ILCA inspection doesn’t include the shipping dock. Or the reception area. If ten boats all leaked I would certainly have an issue. 

Would be interesting to know exactly what the inspections do include.  I would imagine they are mostly "build process" focused on layup, weight, rake and the other things they looked at when sawing up the first 10 boats off the line during the builder approval process.  QC fit and finish is important though and the rigging is just a matter of someone following a packing list to make sure the right items, (blocks, lines and so on are included).  It's highly likely the actual hourly fabricators are not sailors and don't know which way a bow handle or cleat should be mounted, but someone on the QC check before the boat goes out the door really out to catch that stuff.  I feel sure they've got it sorted by this point.  I'll let you know how the next batch of boats turn out when they arrive in June!

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52 minutes ago, Wess said:

Again, no truer words have ever bee spoken.  Just gotta remove the wiggle! ;)

Beyond that are you really serious about the "dealer will inspect and deal with..." comment as it relates to 10 out of 10 having quality defects?  So now its OK to have a Chinese builder that sucks so bad that 10 out of 10 ILCAs have a quality defect because the dealer will inspect and deal with it???  What happened to ILCA and WS collecting fees to inspect?  How crappy (ie doesn't happen) are those inspections for 10 out of 10 to show up having easy to spot defects?  How about the boats with the multiple defects?  How about all the defects you or the dealer can't see... or do you seriously believe that the Chinese ILCA builder only sucks this bad on the obvious to spot defects and there isn't much more wrong that you can't see?  Do you really think that if they can't do the easy stuff right, they are doing the hard stuff right?  Seriously??

If you want to have an honest discussion then have one.

I am honestly not fussed over 10 missing blocks in an early shipment. Honestly. And I don’t believe it is reflective of the build quality of the boats. Honestly. I bought a half dozen spars from SuperSpar (UK) a few years ago for some ICs and an Osprey here. One of the masts (mine) had the hounds in the wrong place. Shit happens and they sent me a replacement. I didn’t go on a wild rant about their quality. The masts were great. Honestly. And I would buy another SuperSpar without hesitation. I honestly think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
 

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Well you have as much a right to an opinion as anyone and from what you describe it sounds like in Canada you might not really have much of a choice but to buy the Chinese Zim ILCAs.  I am in a more fortunate position and have a choice.

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My local guy has an order coming in. I will check his experience. Hans Fogh’s boys run Fogh sailing out of Toronto and are selling ZIMs. They won’t put up with any nonsense. 

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Why do you think the Zim boats have a missing outhaul block, when there is no minimum number of blocks stipulated in the rules?

My boat is fitted with the original design XD outhaul which only has 5 turning points & in my mind works perfectly.

 

(f) Outhaul – also see Rules 3(a) & 3(b) i. The outhaul system shall consist of a maximum of two control lines, “Optional” blocks or loops for purchase and a maximum of 6 “Turning Points”.

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Ah, back to the an ILCA is not really OD boat theme we go.  OK; I agree!

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20 hours ago, Wess said:

Well you have as much a right to an opinion as anyone and from what you describe it sounds like in Canada you might not really have much of a choice but to buy the Chinese Zim ILCAs.  I am in a more fortunate position and have a choice.

But I thought you didn't want a choice?

 

If I was still sailing Lasers I would probably choose an Ovi.

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21 hours ago, Wess said:

Well you have as much a right to an opinion as anyone and from what you describe it sounds like in Canada you might not really have much of a choice but to buy the Chinese Zim ILCAs.  I am in a more fortunate position and have a choice.

If you're in "The Laser" class you have no choices no matter where you live....

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Ah, back to the an ILCA is not really OD boat theme we go.  OK; I agree!

Anybody have the original Laser rule book? I recall replacing my tiller and extension with non OEM in 1974. Maybe the boat never was OD (in Wess World). 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

But I thought you didn't want a choice?

 

If I was still sailing Lasers I would probably choose an Ovi.

Counselor - Have you taken up drinking and smoking that funny stuff in retirement? I have always and always will, advocate for generic sails, generic parts and generic boats.  That would equal true choice!  We agree re Ovi BTW.  That or the highly affordable LPE.  Like a vaccine card you can always find a sticker on line for a few bucks!  ;)

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29 minutes ago, Wess said:

Counselor - Have you taken up drinking and smoking that funny stuff in retirement? I have always and always will, advocate for generic sails, generic parts and generic boats.  That would equal true choice!  We agree re Ovi BTW.  That or the highly affordable LPE.  Like a vaccine card you can always find a sticker on line for a few bucks!  ;)

Enjoy not working....but find living on an investment portfolio very stressful in these volatile markets

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13 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Enjoy not working....but find living on an investment portfolio very stressful in these volatile markets

Yea for ILCA and the market it does have a bit of that 2008 feel to it.  Don't be doge-ing LOL!!

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

What's ya talkin about?  I even got a choice of hiking straps over there!  :D

 

So it's not really a one design?

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23 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Get off your knees and sail a Laser from The Laser Class!

You Aero sailors really need to step up your game and learn how to use the quote function.

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

You Aero sailors really need to step up your game and learn how to use the quote function.

Sorry. Just got back from my first sail since the Trump virus fiasco. Man, the Aero is so much fun.

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Wow that sucks.  If you join The Laser Class you get a free vaccine and are able to ditch the mask.  Never stopped sailing!!  B)

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Wow that sucks.  If you join The Laser Class you get a free vaccine and are able to ditch the mask.  Never stopped sailing!!  B)

Of note:

LP/LPE has built boats in China; e.g. Sunfish, and may still be doing so.

Not sure where they are building those old school Lasers right now.

And the free vaccine that Wess advertizes is the Sinopharm one...

 

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LOL none of that Chinese shit for me!

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Wess

You are a troll. Pure and simple.

One small point. The missing block on the Zim boats was due to the incompetence of a well known marine hardware manufacturer (no names but you should be able to work it out) who were contracted to supply a fittings/rope package pre-packed. These were simply added to each boat unopened. This same problem happened about 6 years ago with LPE, except they supplied over 100 boats with a block missing. I doubt many even knew that happened.

To blame the problem on crap Chinese manufacturing is just more trolling by Wess.

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As a person whose family and friends have built and sold boats for the last 55 years, I really don’t like buying boats formerly built in  the USA and Canada that are now being manufactured in China. 
I do my best to buy American products  or stuff  built in Democratic countries. 
 

Buying stuff I don’t even need from China just seems wrong 

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This forum has got a lot more readable since I put Wess on ignore. I finally decided a few days ago it was the only way to handle the trolling.
Click on the down arrow by your name top right of the page, 
Click on "Ignored Users"
Type "Wess" in the dialogue box, and click the check box against posts in the options that appear.
Result- increased usability.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

As a person whose family and friends have built and sold boats for the last 55 years, I really don’t like buying boats formerly built in the USA and Canada that are now being manufactured in China. 
I do my best to buy American products  or stuff  built in Democratic countries. 
 

Buying stuff I don’t even need from China just seems wrong 

But the US is NOT a fully democratic country. According to the EIU the US has a flawed democracy. (If you are truly interested in democracy, then you should be familiar with this annual report: https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/democracy-index-2020.pdf)

So by your reasoning, (and because I am from a full democracy), should I boycott buying US products?

Because you are in favor of democracy, should you (Gouv) boycott US made products?

It is interesting that democracy (the measure) has mostly increased in China since its low points under Mao. (China is not a democratic country, but all countries can have their level of democracy and freedoms measured, including North Korea). The human rights conditions in my stong view have increased in China over the last few decades (with the exception of the clampdown after Tiananmen Square.) Part of the reason conditions have improved is BECAUSE of trade.

Boycotts and trade wars hurt the people instead of the leaders, and seldom have the desired effect to improve democracy or human rights.

For me, I am nuts about democracy. I am literally willing to spend hours debating the issues. I am also generally in favor of regulated multinational trade agreements, ones that require better trade practices - because the alternative is for big business to make a nonsense of bilateral agreements of the past.

Just because your neighbor has a poorly designed garden, and because you think yours is better, doesn't mean that it is a good idea to diss your neighbors garden, it just make you seem like a prat. Frankly, in the case of the US, your garden is also poorly designed. And I am happy to eat produce from both - and with humility - even though my nation's garden is better designed. This is not a pissing contest, its real life, and trade wars sometimes turn into real wars.

I'm wondering if non-PSA boats will make it into New Zealand. I will assess future purchases on the quality of build and price (in that order). I will not rule out any country.

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1 minute ago, Bruce Hudson said:

But the US is NOT a fully democratic country. According to the EIU the US has a flawed democracy.

 

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13 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

For me, I am nuts about democracy. I am literally willing to spend hours debating the issues.

Take it to PA cunt.

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35 minutes ago, Randorm said:

Take it to PA cunt.

Whatever makes you think my words already don't make it to the PA. 

Thank you for your name calling. Was it your intention to promote yourself as someone who promotes themselves as having flawed judgments? If yes, job well done.

And by the way, I am posting under my real name. I stand behind what I say. I hope one day you become brave enough to do the same. :) 

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Ah Simon my feelings would be hurt if I thought you smarter than a stump or cared about your views LOL.

I am just trying to collect on the rum that Robbie owes me for ILCA's screw-ups.

And have fun trolling you.

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3 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Thank you for calling me a cunt.

 

tenor.gif

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44 minutes ago, Wess said:

Ah Simon my feelings would be hurt if I thought you smarter than a stump or cared about your views LOL.

I am just trying to collect on the rum that Robbie owes me for ILCA's screw-ups.

And have fun trolling you.

Wait- the bet was about screw ups?  I thought it had more to do with the end of the class, no new builders, continued poor supply issues and outrageous prices....Actually, someone posted the original bet a on page 106 and tallied the wins/losses between the betters.  Seemed like I was in the winners column? 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Wait- the bet was about screw ups?  I thought it had more to do with the end of the class, no new builders, continued poor supply issues and outrageous prices....Actually, someone posted the original bet a on page 106 and tallied the wins/losses between the betters.  Seemed like I was in the winners column? 

LOL that was cheatin Bill and you guys changed that bet so many times.  If you recall at your and others insistence that bet ended up being 1.) it wont be soon, 2. ) it wont be cheaper, and 3.) it wont be made in America.  And I believe that is three strikes and you are out (hopefully not as a member of the Yankees where 8 vaccinated team members got covid... maybe they took the Chinese vaccine??)!!

Me and my The Laser Class hiking strap and sail would like our rum now please.

I will share some with you given you are pulling off successful gybes in 30 knots of breeze in a full rig (giving your lemming status I should say pic or it didn't happen but will take you at your word)... that wasn't happenin in my best days and they are long past!

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

LOL that was cheatin Bill and you guys changed that bet so many times.  If you recall at your and others insistence that bet ended up being 1.) it wont be soon, 2. ) it wont be cheaper, and 3.) it wont be made in America.  And I believe that is three strikes and you are out (hopefully not as a member of the Yankees where 8 vaccinated team members got covid... maybe they took the Chinese vaccine??)!!

Me and my The Laser Class hiking strap and sail would like our rum now please.

What a yarn! You lost the bet, Wess.  No longer Wess the Wiggler, now Wess the Welcher! And I wasn’t part of the bet, so I don’t get any of the spoils. 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

What a yarn! You lost the bet, Wess.  No longer Wess the Wiggler, now Wess the Welcher! And I wasn’t part of the bet, so I don’t get any of the spoils. 

Ha cheatin Bill. You are fibbing again said the yam to the turnip.  Just like an ILCA lemming.  And I never offered you any of the spoils.  I offered that to Robbie. I offered you a multihull ride if you ever escape that land of ice and snow and covid and come down here to the land of the free and the brave. So you can watch Robbie and I drink the rum Robbie owes me while sailing faster than any of us will ever go on an expensive, Chinese, non-OD, ILCA!!  :D

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Ha cheatin Bill. You are fibbing again said the yam to the turnip.  Just like an ILCA lemming.  And I never offered you any of the spoils.  I offered that to Robbie. I offered you a multihull ride if you ever escape that land of ice and snow and covid and come down here to the land of the free and the brave. So you can watch Robbie and I drink rum the rum Robbie owes me while sailing faster tha any of us will ever go on an expensive, Chinese, non-OD, ILCA!!  :D

Yam? I said y a r n. You owe lots of people drinks. Robbie’s rum would be a simple courtesy to the yacht owner. Any resemblance to his paying off a bet would be purely coincidental. Welcher.

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You got brain freeze my friend. Go south!  Even in your twisted version I won. Way back in the day of the bet they still were not cheaper (remember the $10k PSA boats) and there was a lawsuit and even you can’t claim that 2 years and soon are the same thing. 

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21 minutes ago, Wess said:

You got brain freeze my friend. Go south!  Even in your twisted version I won. Way back in the day of the bet they still were not cheaper (remember the $10k PSA boats) and there was a lawsuit and even you can’t claim that 2 years and soon are the same thing. 

Repeat. Price - you win. Supply - you lose. Quality - you lose. Lawsuit - anything new post bet date? (You can’t bet on something pre-existing). Welch job. Tsk tsk

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Robbie’s rum would be a simple courtesy to the yacht owner. Any resemblance to his paying off a bet would be purely coincidental. 

Well I think it's just the proper thing to do when excepting a ride on someone's fine boat.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

You got brain freeze my friend. Go south!  Even in your twisted version I won. Way back in the day of the bet they still were not cheaper (remember the $10k PSA boats) and there was a lawsuit and even you can’t claim that 2 years and soon are the same thing. 

The $10k PSA's was a great example of someone taking advantage of a free market, (supply vs demand) situation.  The result of multiple builders has played out as expected and brought those prices down back to the level LPE was last selling boats for when they were still the class supplier.  2 full years ago now? Considering everything that went down it's not really that long ago and the ILCA class has rebounded nicely. 

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19 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

Of note:

LP/LPE has built boats in China; e.g. Sunfish, and may still be doing so.

Not sure where they are building those old school Lasers right now.

And the free vaccine that Wess advertizes is the Sinopharm one...

 

I believe they tried that a couple of years ago but had to scrap it due to quality control issues.  If I had to guess, Sunfish are now being built at LPE's Fiberglass Technology Center of Excellence in Portugal.  No idea on the class illegal Lasers.

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