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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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1 hour ago, Board skiff said:

Well let’s draw a line under that.  I am deeply unsatisfied with your responses, but I hold no hope that you will stop trolling.

So, moving on.  I read on LinkedIn that Olympic classes need to be 90% recyclable by 2028.  What does that mean for the ILCA? 

indeed. Enough Bruce for a lifetime.

Sounds like trouble for all classes. What recyclable materials are on modern sailboats? I don’t believe repurpose-able or reusable qualify.

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2 hours ago, Board skiff said:

Well let’s draw a line under that.  I am deeply unsatisfied with your responses, but I hold no hope that you will stop trolling.

So, moving on.  I read on LinkedIn that Olympic classes need to be 90% recyclable by 2028.  What does that mean for the ILCA? 

Yes, making statements which are a little bit racist can be challenging for everyone, especially when they are outed. What makes it far far worse is attempting to defend yourself by attacking me, which you are still doing by inferring that I'm a troll. Was this response the one you were trolling for?

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The new rule for 90% recyclable materials has no impact on existing classes for the 2028 Olympics. Only new classes must meet this new requirement.

Here's the official statement / brochure from World Sailing:

requirements-for-sustainable-olympic-equipment.pdf

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On 5/14/2021 at 10:17 PM, Wess said:

Outta here.  Week end cruise. Bye bye lemmings.  Send your money to ILCA and sail some Chinese POS so ILCA can grow ILCA sailing in China.  Because that will benefit most of you here.  Ha ha ha ha...

Got out on the water yesterday sailing my 20 yr old vanguard along side on a brandy new ZIM ILCA, (I could smell the resin while standing next to it.  That's always been an intoxicating smell to me...).  Anyway, the boat looked great.  It was delivered with the "standard" package which is the $ 7,300 price boat.  Mainsheet was the right material but the vang line was stiff.  The owner sourced his own carbon tiller/extension on the side as it didn't make sense at the "package" price.  He also skipped on the composite top section, (as I recommended). 

We sailed for an hour of coaching in a light and dying 5-7 breeze so couldn't really compare on any speed testing.  In those conditions we were pretty even until we started tacking/gybing and I was able to separate.

Side note: Had a guy from England who just moved into the district asking me where he can get a new ILCA.  The growth continues.... No he didn't ask for a "Laser".

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19 hours ago, Board skiff said:

Well let’s draw a line under that.  I am deeply unsatisfied with your responses, but I hold no hope that you will stop trolling.

So, moving on.  I read on LinkedIn that Olympic classes need to be 90% recyclable by 2028.  What does that mean for the ILCA? 

Have you seen the used market?  I'd call that the best example of "recycle" ever!

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On 5/16/2021 at 6:12 AM, BlatantEcho said:

Yes, my post about the historically powerful and largest Laser builder, filing for liquidation is off topic.

 

Your ridiculous witch hunt trying to paint people here as racist - totally fine.

Sorry Bruce- have to agree with BE.  I'm not digging the rant you're staying on.  I think you made your point a bunch of posts back.  Can you table it now?

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19 hours ago, Board skiff said:

Well let’s draw a line under that.  I am deeply unsatisfied with your responses, but I hold no hope that you will stop trolling.

So, moving on.  I read on LinkedIn that Olympic classes need to be 90% recyclable by 2028.  What does that mean for the ILCA? 

I think a Chinese ILCA is by definition recyclable. You just have to take it to the local landfill after 2-3 years if you know what I mean LOL.

Oh and re your earlier question he likely thinks you are me. Sorry for that. Two nutters I have on ignore here and both seem to think I am everyone.  Been accused of being everyone including Bill Crane who was previously at LPE LOL.  My next LASER will be named Spartacus!

 

 

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32 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Side note: Had a guy from England who just moved into the district asking me where he can get a new ILCA.  The growth continues.... No he didn't ask for a "Laser".

Last I checked Aero was growing way faster than either.  Will be crashing your hood soon.  The Admiral leaves Harvard for nuke school next. Taking her Laser with AFAIK.  If she gets involved with the local scene the old man might have to come down to show her what it what.  Where are the good weeknight series and are they open to general public?  Any public water access places to launch?  I doubt she would do the whole join the yacht club thing given the short time she would be in town before disappearing under the water.

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

Last I checked Aero was growing way faster than either.  Will be crashing your hood soon.  The Admiral leaves Harvard for nuke school next. Taking her Laser with AFAIK.  If she gets involved with the local scene the old man might have to come down to show her what it what.  Where are the good weeknight series and are they open to general public?  Any public water access places to launch?  I doubt she would do the whole join the yacht club thing given the short time she would be in town before disappearing under the water.

Summer time series stuff for dingy's:

CofC Tuesday night series in 420's and FJ's- Freakin' serious competition at this deal.  Starts at 5:30 and goes until about 7ish.  Every Tuesday and $10 a head to play.  Just bring a lifejacket.  Some show up as a team and others as singles that get matched with others to make a boat.

Thursday night series at my club- JIYC- it's open.  Bring your boat and beach launch.  I think it's free to non-members.

Big boat- PHRF- keelboat series every Wednesday night.  Not hard to bum a ride.  I've got some in's in J24's and a 120.  The Johnstone boys have rehabbed an old open 40 tri they have been ripping around in which is fun to watch.

Just send a PM when ready.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Summer time series stuff for dingy's:

CofC Tuesday night series in 420's and FJ's- Freakin' serious competition at this deal.  Starts at 5:30 and goes until about 7ish.  Every Tuesday and $10 a head to play.  Just bring a lifejacket.  Some show up as a team and others as singles that get matched with others to make a boat.

Thursday night series at my club- JIYC- it's open.  Bring your boat and beach launch.  I think it's free to non-members.

Big boat- PHRF- keelboat series every Wednesday night.  Not hard to bum a ride.  I've got some in's in J24's and a 120.  The Johnstone boys have rehabbed an old open 40 tri they have been ripping around in which is fun to watch.

Just send a PM when ready.

 

 

Thanks.  She would likely be looking for a Laser fleet to play with her Christmas present.  I mean if your going to be an Admiral you need to own at least one new boat. Will drop you a PM when it goes down.  Think the relo happens late June/early July.  Still waiting on orders AFAIK.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Sorry Bruce- have to agree with BE.  I'm not digging the rant you're staying on.  I think you made your point a bunch of posts back.  Can you table it now?

As a British expat living in the US, I quickly became aware that the use of the verb "table" in the context of what to do about a proposal or discussion topic means exactly the opposite in American English to what it means in English English.

To quote Wikipedia... "In the United States, to "table" usually means to postpone or suspend consideration of a pending motion. ... In the rest of the English-speaking world, to "table" means to begin consideration (or reconsideration) of a proposal."

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57 minutes ago, tillerman said:

As a British expat living in the US, I quickly became aware that the use of the verb "table" in the context of what to do about a proposal or discussion topic means exactly the opposite in American English to what it means in English English.

To quote Wikipedia... "In the United States, to "table" usually means to postpone or suspend consideration of a pending motion. ... In the rest of the English-speaking world, to "table" means to begin consideration (or reconsideration) of a proposal."

Damn.  To clarify.  I'm using the US version of the word!

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Thanks.  She would likely be looking for a Laser fleet to play with her Christmas present.  I mean if your going to be an Admiral you need to own at least one new boat. Will drop you a PM when it goes down.  Think the relo happens late June/early July.  Still waiting on orders AFAIK.

Sounds good.  Our Thursday PM series starts in early June and runs through August.

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Sorry Bruce- have to agree with BE.  I'm not digging the rant you're staying on.  I think you made your point a bunch of posts back.  Can you table it now?

Happy to respond to each post which is in my view a tiny bit racist (or more), or a personal attack.

I think there was one post I responded to twice, the rest were responses. I refused to let Board skiff off the hook.

With the exception of a couple of posts by Bill5, I resisted the temptation to comment on other posts.

I have received personal messages of support, there has been concern of bigotry in this thread and in SA for some time. 

It is an uncomfortable subject. Most do not want to get involved with it, which  in my view is part of the problem.

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Re the use of "table". I understood both meanings from my time in the US, your usage Robbie was just fine.

There is another meaning of table as a verb specific to sailing (new to me!): 

Screenshot_20210518-035411.png

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Sorry Bruce- have to agree with BE.  I'm not digging the rant you're staying on.  I think you made your point a bunch of posts back.  Can you table it now?

Who is "BE"?

My initial guess was Bill, but worryingly you may have meant Board skiff.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

I think a Chinese ILCA is by definition recyclable. You just have to take it to the local landfill after 2-3 years if you know what I mean LOL.

A clear example of... ...never mind, tabled. (It reflects more on Wess than his continued target of attack: China).

2 hours ago, Wess said:

Oh and re your earlier question he likely thinks you are me. Sorry for that. Two nutters I have on ignore here and both seem to think I am everyone.  Been accused of being everyone including Bill Crane who was previously at LPE LOL.  My next LASER will be named Spartacus!

For the record, I don't believe that 'Wess' and 'Board stiff' are the same person. If Wess has any other identities, I'm not aware of them.

I am honored to have found the limit of Wess so that he blocked me, though I do wonder who the other 'nutter' is.

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21 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Who is "BE"?

My initial guess was Bill, but worryingly you may have meant Board skiff.

Scared to answer, but Blatent Echo.  I know we've run many circles around the same topics on this thread many times, but they've (mostly) been related to the perceived positives and negatives of ILCA and LPE/LP and the events between the two organizations over the past few years. 

I think we all understand your point but on the racism and like everything else in this thread some will agree and some won't.  Either way the repetition is getting a little numbing and has moved way past the thread parameters or at least perceived parameters?

 

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4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Scared to answer, but Blatent Echo. 

Ha! Well I got that wrong and I'm glad I asked!

Sometimes I say the exact opposite of my true meaning as an attempt to create tension, and in this case intended humor. My comment questioning Blatant Echo's post was only possible because he was on topic!

4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I know we've run many circles around the same topics on this thread many times, but they've (mostly) been related to the perceived positives and negatives of ILCA and LPE/LP and the events between the two organizations over the past few years. 

Hmmm... So how does the topic "all products from China are substandard" fit? Or lawnmowers?

Nested into comments are many other topics, many personal attacks, and many examples of mild and not so mild bigotry.

4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I think we all understand your point but on the racism and like everything else in this thread some will agree and some won't.  Either way the repetition is getting a little numbing and has moved way past the thread parameters or at least perceived parameters?

As this forum is largely unmoderated, this kind of 'flare up' is a consequence of little moderation, as there is no other recourse.

---

There is a meta level of communication that is widely despised, where threads appear hijacked. (Wess does this a lot, and was a big part of my wanting to stop what seemed to me was increasing bigotry targeting China).

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I'm not seeking agreement regarding my claiming the statement being a tiny bit racist. It was a comment that implied that it was unsurprising that products from China have issues with quality control. As China was singled out, it was a slur against the people of China. (I currently spend a significant part of my working week on the topic of bigotry. I'm on solid ground here Robbie, and from your posts, it is pleasing to see you post against such comments).

Note that many people do not understand that labelling a statement as racist, does not mean that the person is a racist. I do not believe Board skiff is a racist per se, and now believe that the racist element of his statement was unintentional, making it all the more important to highlight it. (We could all benefit from toning down our racist comments - both intended and unintended.)

---

In fact, Blatant Echo's post was perfect, on topic, and it ignored the off topic discussion on racism. 

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On 5/16/2021 at 4:26 AM, BlatantEcho said:

Been informed by a very reliable source that LPE has filed for the British version of liquidation. Not confirmed fact, but, source is strong.

Could just be a corporate / shell move like Farzad did with the buggy company.... fold up one company, open another, blah blah.  (moving legally from UK to PT in this specific case)

Anyone know more?

This is a good post, on topic and deserves answering!

I've heard the same, though also that things aren't going so well in Portugal for Farzad, but don't have information that I would call solid.

This is an excerpt from LP’s Jan 15, 2019 Facebook post. Since Rastegar often changes his mind, who knows what they are doing now. The excerpt:

"As a result of the US-China trade war, we have decided to set up our own manufacturing facilities in Portugal with the objective of becoming fully operational by this year end. Manufacturing of all sloops and collegiate sailing boats will be given priority. Our existing resources in China will continue to supply the Asian markets. Laser Sailboats manufacturing in Banbury, UK, will expand to include the Sunfish boat."

I'm unaware of any subsequent statement by LP that updates this.

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31 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Note that many people do not understand that labelling a statement as racist, does not mean that the person is a racist. I do not believe Board skiff is a racist per se, and now believe that the racist element of his statement was unintentional, making it all the more important to highlight it. (We could all benefit from toning down our racist comments - both intended and unintended.)

Why, thank you. However there was no racist element to my post.  I meant what I said and I said what I meant.  So, if I knowing and intentionally made a comment that you claim is racist it is hard not to infer that you are calling me a racist. Please be unambiguous on this, am I a racist Bruce? Yes or no.  

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On 5/14/2021 at 6:42 AM, Bruce Hudson said:

But the US is NOT a fully democratic country. According to the EIU the US has a flawed democracy. (If you are truly interested in democracy, then you should be familiar with this annual report: https://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438/images/democracy-index-2020.pdf)

So by your reasoning, (and because I am from a full democracy), should I boycott buying US products?

Because you are in favor of democracy, should you (Gouv) boycott US made products?

It is interesting that democracy (the measure) has mostly increased in China since its low points under Mao. (China is not a democratic country, but all countries can have their level of democracy and freedoms measured, including North Korea). The human rights conditions in my stong view have increased in China over the last few decades (with the exception of the clampdown after Tiananmen Square.) Part of the reason conditions have improved is BECAUSE of trade.

 

I dont want to turn this into political anarchy but....

I have always resisted the anti-China sentiment drummed up in the US over the last 4 years but personal experience has made me realize there is an element of truth to criticism of their local political system. I like almost every Chinese person I have met and I admire their entrepreneurial gene pool, devotion to family and hard work.

Where I come unstuck is the way Hong Kong has lost its democratic rights and seeing the changes there.  I visited HK many years ago...and almost every friend I had there has had to move away disenchanted with the slow loss of political freedom.   I see the Chines are much more long term about their economic goals than US politicians who just want to get reelected but China's move towards a blend of Communism, Capitalism and Democracy has petered out. Its a shame .

I think the accusations that the Chinese deliberately released covid as unfair and absurd. The concren about the way minroties are treated in China is jstified.

 

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5 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

This is a good post, on topic and deserves answering!

I've heard the same, though also that things aren't going so well in Portugal for Farzad, but don't have information that I would call solid.

This is an excerpt from LP’s Jan 15, 2019 Facebook post. Since Rastegar often changes his mind, who knows what they are doing now. The excerpt:

"As a result of the US-China trade war, we have decided to set up our own manufacturing facilities in Portugal with the objective of becoming fully operational by this year end. Manufacturing of all sloops and collegiate sailing boats will be given priority. Our existing resources in China will continue to supply the Asian markets. Laser Sailboats manufacturing in Banbury, UK, will expand to include the Sunfish boat."

I'm unaware of any subsequent statement by LP that updates this.

Yes LP must be really hurting

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33 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

Why, thank you. However there was no racist element to my post.  I meant what I said and I said what I meant.  So, if I knowing and intentionally made a comment that you claim is racist it is hard not to infer that you are calling me a racist. Please be unambiguous on this, am I a racist Bruce? Yes or no.  

With your statement, it is important to look at the actual words you used, not the deeper more complex message you intended. The country of China does not work in quality control, it's people do. The connection to the Chinese people was therefore inferred and a statement that said that quality issues were not a surprise because they are in China was a slur based on a stereotype.

No, I do not believe you are inherently racist in the same way I don't believe I am.

What "a racist" is, can be ambiguous. If someone makes 99 statements which are anti-racist, then one that is racist, does that make a person racist? Actually, the answer is mutually exclusive. There is always a greater context 

I don't know you Board skiff. You could be a card carrying member of the KKK for all I know - though given your reaction, I think that is extremely unlikely. We all hold prejudices, and I've never met anyone who hasn't made a statement which at least is a tiny bit racist.

In my view, statements which are a tiny bit racist do not in themselves make a person racist. 

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24 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

With your statement, it is important to look at the actual words you used, not the deeper more complex message you intended. The country of China does not work in quality control, it's people do. The connection to the Chinese people was therefore inferred and a statement that said that quality issues were not a surprise because they are in China was a slur based on a stereotype.

No, I do not believe you are inherently racist in the same way I don't believe I am.

What "a racist" is, can be ambiguous. If someone makes 99 statements which are anti-racist, then one that is racist, does that make a person racist? Actually, the answer is mutually exclusive. There is always a greater context 

I don't know you Board skiff. You could be a card carrying member of the KKK for all I know - though given your reaction, I think that is extremely unlikely. We all hold prejudices, and I've never met anyone who hasn't made a statement which at least is a tiny bit racist.

In my view, statements which are a tiny bit racist do not in themselves make a person racist. 

The Chinese government is holding two of my countrymen prisoners for political reason. Espionage charges are trumped up and “trials” were held behind closed doors. I totally distrust the legal system in China. Is this a racist comment?
In a post above I stated that China both had a history of poor quality products but now makes a lot of world class products. Is the first point racist and the second not? 
Is one not permitted to say anything negative about China without your claiming to comment to be racist?

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5 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Blah blah

 

 

I know, I know. I have trouble not responding to comments that are even a tiny bit troll-like

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1 minute ago, Bill5 said:

The Chinese government is holding two of my countrymen prisoners for political reason. Espionage charges are trumped up and “trials” were held behind closed doors.

Yes, China is one of several countries who hold people for political reasons. In my view it is unacceptable.

1 minute ago, Bill5 said:

I totally distrust the legal system in China. Is this a racist comment?

I don't think it is, though to make it so, simply trump up the stereotype.

1 minute ago, Bill5 said:

In a post above I stated that China both had a history of poor quality products but now makes a lot of world class products. Is the first point racist and the second not? 

No, not on my view.

1 minute ago, Bill5 said:

Is one not permitted to say anything negative about China without your claiming to comment to be racist?

Saying something negative about any country is not in itself racist. Laughing at a people on the basis of a slur or a stereotype is.

Like many, your sense of what is and what isn't racist is poorly developed Bill. Many spend a lifetime avoiding frank discussions on the topic. Even fewer read academic papers, and still fewer write on the topic.

There is a lot of information on implicit bias, systemic racism and covert racism. The risk of not knowing about the topic in a deeper way is inadvertently hurting others by making racist statements.

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Yes, China is one of several countries who hold people for political reasons. In my view it is unacceptable.

I don't think it is, though to make it so, simply trump up the stereotype.

No, not on my view.

Saying something negative about any country is not in itself racist. Laughing at a people on the basis of a slur or a stereotype is.

Like many, your sense of what is and what isn't racist is poorly developed Bill. Many spend a lifetime avoiding frank discussions on the topic. Even fewer read academic papers, and still fewer write on the topic.

There is a lot of information on implicit bias, systemic racism and covert racism. The risk of not knowing about the topic in a deeper way is inadvertently hurting others by making racist statements.

It is bit condescending to tell Bill his sense of racism is poorly developed.

One can have a strongly held view about the regime in a nation without holding and racist views.

 

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

With your statement, it is important to look at the actual words you used, not the deeper more complex message you intended.

Right, let’s do that. My actual words, in response to the news that LPE has withdrawn Chinese production of its goods whilst others on here were debating/espousing the quality of Chinese made products:

Quote

Quality control issues in China? Are you sure?:ph34r:

It is you that has inferred a deeper more complex message than I intended.  I say it is you with the poorly developed understanding of racism  humour. And you mock endangered birds.  

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32 minutes ago, IPLore said:

It is bit condescending to tell Bill his sense of racism is poorly developed.

One can have a strongly held view about the regime in a nation without holding and racist views.

 

Indeed and thanks, IP. Working for a global firm with offices in 130 countries (including China), I would put my “racism quotient” more in the mature category. Our firm wins award after award for inclusion and diversity.
Bruce loves to talk about racism, personal attack, bullying and other subjects typical of those with a tiny bit of victim mentality. 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

It is bit condescending to tell Bill his sense of racism is poorly developed.

Thank IPLore, I hate it when I do that. (Sorry Bill for any hurt caused, it wasn't intentional).

1 hour ago, IPLore said:

One can have a strongly held view about the regime in a nation without holding and racist views.

Agreed.

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17 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

Right, let’s do that. My actual words, in response to the news that LPE has withdrawn Chinese production of its goods whilst others on here were debating/espousing the quality of Chinese made products:

"Quality control issues in China? Are you sure?"

It is you that has inferred a deeper more complex message than I intended.  I say it is you with the poorly developed understanding of racism  humour.

No. You are incorrect. You are mixing your intended message with what you actually said. Your explanation was after the fact, and speaks to your intended message.

A reasonable interpretation is that it is unsurprising that most or all products made in China have quality control issues.

17 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

 And you mock endangered birds.  

That is your false, misleading story. I simply cannot recall referring to any person or people as "kiwi". Do you hold the stereotype that all New Zealanders do?

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8 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Indeed and thanks, IP. Working for a global firm with offices in 130 countries (including China), I would put my “racism quotient” more in the mature category. Our firm wins award after award for inclusion and diversity.

The White House as a workplace can make many positive inclusivity and diversity claims. Donald Trump worked at the White House.

My comment relating to your underdeveloped grasp of racism was based on what you said. In your favor, you did grasp the distinction between calling a statement racist and labelling a person racist. 

8 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Bruce loves to talk about racism, personal attack, bullying and other subjects typical of those with a tiny bit of victim mentality. 

Yes, for some years (since approx 2004) I have worked on the topic of 'isms, in particular online hate.

SA has been a great source to quote.

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I’ve just posted the actual words. You are arguing black is white. For both of our sakes, please stop.
 

11 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

That is your false, misleading story. I simply cannot recall referring to any person or people as "kiwi". Do you hold the stereotype that all New Zealanders do?


 

 

C79A7EC2-DCC8-45A3-9AA2-4B1CC2D2EA63.png

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21 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

I’ve just posted the actual words. You are arguing black is white. For both of our sakes, please stop.

C79A7EC2-DCC8-45A3-9AA2-4B1CC2D2EA63.png

I concede I have used the word kiwi in reference to the people. At the time I wrote my comment I could not recall using it. More of a memory lapse. I have no difficulty admitting to making a mistake, and this was a big one!

58 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

And you mock endangered birds.

Please find me a bird that was harmed or offended and I shall unreservedly apologize.

You on the other hand Board stiff, have never made a mistake, right?

For example, it is not a mistake to troll me for a response while simultaneously asking me to stop. Plus, you love having the final word, right?

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From the problems of ILCA to racism and bigotry.  Seems a natural progression for a thread filled with ILCA sailors LOL.  Would never happen with LASER sailors!!  ;)

Is the OD concept basically one boat type being racist towards another boat type? B)

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

From the problems of ILCA to racism and bigotry.  Seems a natural progression for a thread filled with ILCA sailors LOL.  Would never happen with LASER sailors!!  ;)

Is the OD concept basically one boat type being racist towards another boat type? B)

Please cast some bait. I would way sooner battle with you than go through the pain of a Bruce shit show. 

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Just now, Bill5 said:

Please cast some bait. I would way sooner battle with you than go through the pain of a Bruce shit show. 

You win.  I about peed my pants laughing at that one.

What do we want?  GENERIC LASERS!

When do we want them?  NOW

Fee free sailing!! 

Free, free, free at last from ILCA and hidden fees!!

2 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

Relax folks.  I now have Bruce on ignore, so normal service can resume. Please, for my sanity, try not to quote him.

That is my line LOL!

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20 minutes ago, Wess said:

You win.  I about peed my pants laughing at that one.

What do we want?  GENERIC LASERS!

When do we want them?  NOW

Fee free sailing!! 

Free, free, free at last from ILCA and hidden fees!!

That is my line LOL!

THANKS

You have generic Lasers available from your hero, Rasty, and his bucket shop, LPE. No fees, and free from ILCA. And leave those of us not concerned to deal with ILCA. Only thing is, by the time you get your Laser, LPE will be broke. So, I guess, you are completely screwed!

I feel so much better!

 

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38 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

THANKS

You have generic Lasers available from your hero, Rasty, and his bucket shop, LPE. No fees, and free from ILCA. And leave those of us not concerned to deal with ILCA. Only thing is, by the time you get your Laser, LPE will be broke. So, I guess, you are completely screwed!

I feel so much better!

 

Screwed?   I am free!!  I got my fake vaccine card(s), my fake ILCA dinghy sticker (pack of 100), and I am about to go spread my gospel and germs... in poor Robbie's neck of the woods.  But don't think you are safe. The Canadian Rockies are an amazing place and I have not yet gotten the wife up there.  I am coming for you Bill and your little dog Andey too!  Cue the flying monkeys!!

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On 5/15/2021 at 5:26 PM, BlatantEcho said:

Been informed by a very reliable source that LPE has filed for the British version of liquidation. Not confirmed fact, but, source is strong.

Laser Performance (Europe) has been an empty shell with pretty much no assets, employees or turnover for some years now as reported up thread. Unfortunately the signal to noise ratio is so pathetic round here people must have missed it. It now has a massive fine and no possible means of paying it so according to my admittedly rudimentary understanding of UK company regs liquidation would seem inevitable. 

According the companies House website https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00922893 the company has applied to be struck off the companies register and will be dissolved in a couple of months. 

The boats under the Laser banner have been built by Laser Performance LLC for some years now. 

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11 minutes ago, JimC said:

Laser Performance (Europe) has been an empty shell with pretty much no assets, employees or turnover for some years now as reported up thread. Unfortunately the signal to noise ratio is so pathetic round here people must have missed it. It now has a massive fine and no possible means of paying it.

Massive fine? What for?

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Think he is talking about the legal judgement (not a fine) but they appear to have a business strategy to try to deal with that as best I can tell from the outside looking in. 

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One thing I have lost track of in all this, where are things in terms of opening up sail making on a frand basis?

I’m assuming this won’t be as simple as the usual way of opening up sail manufacture completely and having a measurement certificate, like most classes do.  

For reasons not entirely clear I suspect budding sail makers will have to pre-qualify to be a supplier, but has that process kicked off yet?

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30 minutes ago, Board skiff said:

One thing I have lost track of in all this, where are things in terms of opening up sail making on a frand basis?

I’m assuming this won’t be as simple as the usual way of opening up sail manufacture completely and having a measurement certificate, like most classes do.  

For reasons not entirely clear I suspect budding sail makers will have to pre-qualify to be a supplier, but has that process kicked off yet?

This is relevant.  I don't know the in's and out's of WS's FRAND requirements on the ILCA or others but like most other things that have come out of that organization over the last 5 years or so it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't very cohesive and didn't go to far beyond the actual hulls....

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33 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

This is relevant.  I don't know the in's and out's of WS's FRAND requirements on the ILCA or others but like most other things that have come out of that organization over the last 5 years or so it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't very cohesive and didn't go to far beyond the actual hulls....

How old is the Laser you are presently racing?

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10 hours ago, JimC said:

Laser Performance (Europe) has been an empty shell with pretty much no assets, employees or turnover for some years now as reported up thread. Unfortunately the signal to noise ratio is so pathetic round here people must have missed it. It now has a massive fine and no possible means of paying it so according to my admittedly rudimentary understanding of UK company regs liquidation would seem inevitable. 

According the companies House website https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00922893 the company has applied to be struck off the companies register and will be dissolved in a couple of months. 

The boats under the Laser banner have been built by Laser Performance LLC for some years now. 

@JimC  Makes a lot of sense.  Farzad did similar with other shell companies in the US, so that is the most likely answer.

 

Thanks for the details (I indeed missed that earlier in the thread)

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57 minutes ago, Wess said:

How old is the Laser you are presently racing?

She is celebrating her 20th birthday this year.

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7 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

She is celebrating her 20th birthday this year.

So you have spent WAYYYY more on sails than you have on the boat over your period of ownership.

And so tell me again why WS and ILCA continue to ignore their own FRAND requirements when it comes to sails? 

Oh and would you like to make the same rum bet there re FRAND ILCA sails?  That they will not be a.) soon, b.) cheaper, and c.) made in NA?

FRAND was just an excuse to get rid of a Laser builder ILCA and WS didn't like and create yet another revenue source for broken organizations.  It never was and never will be good news for grass roots sailors.

 

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20 minutes ago, Wess said:

So you have spent WAYYYY more on sails than you have on the boat over your period of ownership.

And so tell me again why WS and ILCA continue to ignore their own FRAND requirements when it comes to sails? 

Oh and would you like to make the same rum bet there re FRAND ILCA sails?  That they will not be a.) soon, b.) cheaper, and c.) made in NA?

FRAND was just an excuse to get rid of a Laser builder ILCA and WS didn't like.  It never was and never will be good news for grass roots sailors.

 

I've had the boat for 5 years now.  Bought it on Craigslist from a local auto mechanic for $1,700.00.  It still had the paint covering the wear plate in the bottom of the mast step.  All rigging was from 2001.  I really only wanted it for the Trailex trailer it came with, but the hull was so nice I simply switched all of my upgraded rigging off my 1998 hull and sold the old hull with old sail and classic rigging for $ 1,000.00.  Best $700 boat upgrade ever!  Now, since owning the boat I'm on my 2nd MKII sail and I bought the composite top section, (which I believe is a 1%'er tool BTW and an option NOT requirement).

That's been it.  However, you are correct.  $650 per sail x 2 = $ 1,300.00.  So, $600 more than I paid for the boat.  It's a travesty.  I seriously race the boat in about 10 - 12 weekend regattas and 8-10 frostbite days + another 10 or so practice days a year. Mostly in a venue that averages 10-20 mph breeze and a decent chop.  (About 40-50 days a year).

Every year I've had the boat I've finished in the top 3 of our annual District Championship Series finally winning it in 2019.

Now- ask me how much I paid to go to the Masters series event in Palm Beach a few years ago.  That trip alone cost more than a sail, (as it would for nearly any "higher end" event).  Now- ask me how much I pay to travel to the 7 events our District holds every year as a part of our Championship series???

It's kinda like golf Wess.  Buying the clubs is the easy part.  It's the damn greens fees that'll get you every time, but guess what.  Ya gotta pay to play my man!

Now- if I were a,(what I believe to be your definition of) "true" grass roots sailor then my boat which I bought for $ 1,700 5 years ago would be sitting outdoors on a trailer, under a tree with the cockpit full of leaves and water.  I'd have knock off gear for it the 3-5 times a year I'd sail it at my club FB or open summer events using the old original sail or an Intensity.  No one would care and I'd be just fine.

So, what's the problem?

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That most anyone in any category will spend more on sails than they will on an ILCA boat over the same period and that ILCA (and WS) have and continue to ignore their own FRAND requirements when it comes to sails. 
 

Oh and that if they ever do do what they say they are going to do with re sails that they a.) will not do it “soon,” b.) will not make sails cheaper, and c.) the sails will not be made in NA... just as it was and is for hulls. 
 

And that brings us to our last problem which is that I do love rum and you still ain’t paid up LOL.

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34 minutes ago, Wess said:

So you have spent WAYYYY more on sails than you have on the boat over your period of ownership.

And so tell me again why WS and ILCA continue to ignore their own FRAND requirements when it comes to sails? 

Oh and would you like to make the same rum bet there re FRAND ILCA sails?  That they will not be a.) soon, b.) cheaper, and c.) made in NA?

FRAND was just an excuse to get rid of a Laser builder ILCA and WS didn't like and create yet another revenue source for broken organizations.  It never was and never will be good news for grass roots sailors.

 

Hey! That’s not the same bet - or did you have multiple bets? Perhaps the bet changed as your chances of winning diminished? Very suspicious…

Anyway, it would be interesting to know how far into parts and accessories the FRAND deal goes. It does look like hulls only. Spars, foils, and vangs come to mind. As far as the sail goes, reports from people actually in the business were that a sail from a local loft would be at least as expensive. I suppose you could get a sail more cheaply made elsewhere, but I know that notion is repulsive to some. Same with foils and spars, I suppose. But grass roots folks can load up with all the generic gear they want and club race - which is where the fun is anyway!

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3 hours ago, Board skiff said:

I think Mr Tillerman is joshing.  Either that or dementia has set in. 

That or senility.  He sails an Aero so that is possible.  Likely even.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Oh and that if they ever do do what they say they are going to do with re sails that they a.) will not do it “soon,” b.) will not make sails cheaper, and c.) the sails will not be made in NA... just as it was and is for hulls. 
 

And that brings us to our last problem which is that I do love rum and you still ain’t paid up LOL.

I'll make the argument the MKII is actually less expensive given its longevity over the MKI.  I had to buy a new MKI every year sailing the same amount I do now.  My current MKII is going into it's 3rd year of use and still looks/feels great.  I'm going into the 5th year on my original MKII and while it's soft the shape is still there and it's still competitive at the "grass roots" level.

Sourcing stuff out of NA is a "want".  Unfortunately no one seems to want to get into it at this point.  ILCA can't "make" someone do it.

When you show your mug in Chucktown one thing for sure is something will happen with Rum.  ;-)

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4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I'll make the argument the MKII is actually less expensive given its longevity over the MKI.  I had to buy a new MKI every year sailing the same amount I do now.  My current MKII is going into it's 3rd year of use and still looks/feels great.  I'm going into the 5th year on my original MKII and while it's soft the shape is still there and it's still competitive at the "grass roots" level.

Sourcing stuff out of NA is a "want".  Unfortunately no one seems to want to get into it at this point.  ILCA can't "make" someone do it.

When you show your mug in Chucktown one thing for sure is something will happen with Rum.  ;-)

LOL that last bit got a laugh for sure but what the hell does any of it have to do with ILCA and WS ignoring their own FRAND requirements for ILCA sails??  I think the word you are searching for for your response is “unresponsive.”

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Or maybe incompetent, self dealing, lying, cheating, buffoons! 
 

IMHO as you like to say!! :rolleyes:

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33 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL that last bit got a laugh for sure but what the hell does any of it have to do with ILCA and WS ignoring their own FRAND requirements for ILCA sails??  I think the word you are searching for for your response is “unresponsive.”

Honestly this is what I don't know.  What exactly are the parameters of the FRAND policy as it concerns the ILCA gear?  Is it all encompassing?  If it is there are currently 3 different makers of ILCA class legal sails, Pryde, North and Hyde and at least two for the blocks with Harken and Ronstan.  Lines are wide open as are tillers, and extensions.  The spars have 2 or 3 suppliers. I wonder about the blades?  Are they supplied by the individual builders of the hulls?  If so, they fit.  

I get that FRAND is or maybe should be, "anyone who wants to supply can" but there has to be QC and measurement controlled parameters controlled by the class to keep it from becoming a free for all.  Once that happens all class integrity is lost.

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47 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I get that FRAND is or maybe should be, "anyone who wants to supply can" but there has to be QC and measurement controlled parameters controlled by the class to keep it from becoming a free for all.  Once that happens all class integrity is lost.

But open source sailmaking with a measurement certificate as proof of validity is as old as the hills.  I don’t agree with FRAND as a fair policy for Lasers, but if that is what they signed up to then that is what they need to deliver.  

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1 hour ago, Board skiff said:

But open source sailmaking with a measurement certificate as proof of validity is as old as the hills.  I don’t agree with FRAND as a fair policy for Lasers, but if that is what they signed up to then that is what they need to deliver.  

True.  

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The problem is here Robbie.  Its a really good read and the first hint of some refreshing honesty (that I bet goes nowhere):

  https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1107783/world-sailing-liquidation-without-ioc

The issue is from IOC to WS to ILCA its all just the same evil empire with the same focus (elite and Olympics and control over and revenue from). 

I mean we are all generally joking around and busting on each other here.  A few folks who ain't gonna change the world or anybody's mind.

But I honestly don't know how you can look at this - from IOC to ILCA and everything in between - and not think is stinks to high heaven, does literally nothing for the sport (actually significantly diminishes it) at the club level, and that these punks should all be fired and in some cases maybe even belong in jail or at least being sued. 

I don't know how you can be proud or supportive of this be it ILCA, WS, or IOC.  And so its clear I don't mean folks like you down at the club level.  You, I and Gouv may all have different views of things and even do different things at the club level but we all tried to move the ball forward in our own way.

The rest of so-called sailing governance?  Let them rot in the cesspool they created.

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2 hours ago, Board skiff said:

But open source sailmaking with a measurement certificate as proof of validity is as old as the hills.  

And also leads to every sail maker having a different design or more likely multiple designs and cost escalation. Not what most ILCA/Laser sailors have signed up to. Supply of identical sails going out to tender at regular intervals seems to be acceptable to the various authorities. 

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And how exactly is that FRAND?

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17 hours ago, JimC said:

Laser Performance (Europe) has been an empty shell with pretty much no assets, employees or turnover for some years now as reported up thread. Unfortunately the signal to noise ratio is so pathetic round here people must have missed it. It now has a massive fine and no possible means of paying it so according to my admittedly rudimentary understanding of UK company regs liquidation would seem inevitable. 

According the companies House website https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00922893 the company has applied to be struck off the companies register and will be dissolved in a couple of months. 

The boats under the Laser banner have been built by Laser Performance LLC for some years now. 

It may not be over for Farzad, as in the UK company directors have responsibilities (I wonder of Farzad still travels with a UK passport.)

Farzad is on thin ice for two reasons, the way he runs his companies is unconventional to say the least. Further, he may find himself that target of further action if there is reasonable cause to think he has acted improperly as a director. It is my view that he has.

https://www.begbies-traynorgroup.com/articles/director-advice/understanding-directors-liabilities-towards-company-debts

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16 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

It may not be over for Farzad, as in the UK company directors have responsibilities

Mr Rastegar hasn't been a director of LPE since 1998. The only director of LPE appears to be a Mr Khosrow JAHANSHAD, who would appear to be based in the US and associated with other related companies.

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23 minutes ago, JimC said:

Mr Rastegar hasn't been a director of LPE since 1998. The only director of LPE appears to be a Mr Khosrow JAHANSHAD, who would appear to be based in the US and associated with other related companies.

1162330543_ScreenShot2021-05-18at4_18_53PM.thumb.png.acbee926300e4915841143ff6e2755d2.png

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7 minutes ago, JimC said:

Mr Rastegar hasn't been a director of LPE since 1998. The only director of LPE appears to be a Mr Khosrow JAHANSHAD, who would appear to be based in the US and associated with other related companies.

Good point, though that is not the only company involved, and speaks to the unconventional way Farzad runs his companies. 

Over the years, LP was bled of funds. I'd look at the beneficiary of such fund movements, and the directors of those entities.

You raise a good point, Farzad is no longer the director of any company in the UK.

"Farzad Ali RASTEGAR - Personal Appointments (free information from Companies House)" https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/6UoWDIP3FnciKxHkJZ4Hm25hGIk/appointments

Similar rules apply to shareholders, right?

 

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1 minute ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Similar rules apply to shareholders, right?

I very much doubt it. That's the whole point of limited companies.

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10 minutes ago, JimC said:

I very much doubt it. That's the whole point of limited companies.

Under company law, yes, you are correct. (Painted myself into a corner, so I might as well just say what is on my mind).

In a nutshell, under criminal law, shareholders do not have unlimited protection, nobody does.

There are a sufficient number of anomalies to warrant further investigation of Farzad in my view.

UK law has some teeth.

 

Abuse-of-Incorporation-November-2012(1).pdf

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FRAND is a European or a EU term.

What is require to satisfy the requirements of FRAND,  given the requirements of the class, in this case ILCA, in my own case I49erCA, is a understanding of what the sailors (stake holders) want and finding a way to ensure that their needs along with those of the EU are meet.

It dose not mean open sail making, but allowing open tender ever X years  (a defined time period). 

We are doing this exactly now, and it's arduous.

So in our case, and I also believe in the case of the ILCA, those that wish to compete in a 149erCA/ILCA sanctioned event have been very vocal about the one design nature of the equipment they use, in our case we simply don't have the volume to justify multiple sail makers, so we are about selecting a single sail-maker to make a sail, and then we impose a regime controls that build within acceptable level of tolerance.

ILCA dose have the volume so they have the luxury of being able to justify 2-3 sail-makers.   More sail-makers, more cost in policing.   And the level of policing (tolerance) is defined by what the sailors want.

The really amusing part of this is that the sailors indirectly then impose levels of compliance on that sail-makers far beyond anything that we (the builders, could possible) impose, they know what they are looking for, and it tends not to be the edges, but consistency.

Even this morning I was told of a level of "inspection" that had been done by a nation, of the existing sails, which is so far beyond anything that I can imagine, I really feel for the sail-makers.      Tough gig!

My point being, and I assume it is the same with the ILCA, it's about allowing any group the right to bid to win a tender every 4-8 years, and then if they do win they become one of the exclusive suppliers of that part for a given period of time.  (again 4-8 years).

Pretty obviously ILCA has just done this WRT the selection of a new range of builders.

We do bits, rather than whole packages, we are also far more open to evolution, so WRT masts we did it 2 years ago, and sails, mains done, spinnakers, what this space and it could be but dose not have to be the same sail-maker as the working sails.

All via very open tender, just like ILCA did with the builders.    All over-seen by WS.

If I may make a final point, as the original question is about sails, every bit of evidence, of open sail making vs single source sail making if you assume the sorts of control that any hi-end international class requires, suggests that the direct cost of open sail-making is double the cost of the single source option, and we have been doing that sum now for bit over 20 years.  

Compare apples with apples, and it's double.   Arm's length empercial data collection.

The actual cost, so opportunity cost, wasted time, yad yad yad double or triples that again.

It would appear that very clearly both the ILCA and the I49erCA sailors, and I know this very acutely WRT the 49er/FX sailors want a range of tolerance (minimisation) that is not just hard to achieve but that North with their 3Di offering (working sails) that has been selected by these sailors is probably in for a new level of excellence!

                     jB

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18 hours ago, Wess said:

The problem is here Robbie.  Its a really good read and the first hint of some refreshing honesty (that I bet goes nowhere):

  https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1107783/world-sailing-liquidation-without-ioc

The issue is from IOC to WS to ILCA its all just the same evil empire with the same focus (elite and Olympics and control over and revenue from). 

I mean we are all generally joking around and busting on each other here.  A few folks who ain't gonna change the world or anybody's mind.

But I honestly don't know how you can look at this - from IOC to ILCA and everything in between - and not think is stinks to high heaven, does literally nothing for the sport (actually significantly diminishes it) at the club level, and that these punks should all be fired and in some cases maybe even belong in jail or at least being sued. 

I don't know how you can be proud or supportive of this be it ILCA, WS, or IOC.  And so its clear I don't mean folks like you down at the club level.  You, I and Gouv may all have different views of things and even do different things at the club level but we all tried to move the ball forward in our own way.

The rest of so-called sailing governance?  Let them rot in the cesspool they created.

In basic principal I agree with you here.  WS stinks and has stunk for quite some time now.  Their sole funding mechanism has been IOC which right off presents opportunity for conflicts of interest.  However, I believe, (as you mentioned we all have our sets of beliefs here) ILCA remaining an Olympic class is and has been important so ILCA has had to "dance with the devil" to stay there.   

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35 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

In basic principal I agree with you here.  WS stinks and has stunk for quite some time now.  Their sole funding mechanism has been IOC which right off presents opportunity for conflicts of interest.  However, I believe, (as you mentioned we all have our sets of beliefs here) ILCA remaining an Olympic class is and has been important so ILCA has had to "dance with the devil" to stay there.   

Note WS does have income other than IOC - statement of accounts attached. But they have certainly relied upon IOC income to survive. I have dug through all this before. Quite boring, but without the share of Olympic revenues, they die.

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2019AnnualAuditedAccountsWorldSailingLimited-[26378].pdf

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59 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

In basic principal I agree with you here.  WS stinks and has stunk for quite some time now.  Their sole funding mechanism has been IOC which right off presents opportunity for conflicts of interest.  However, I believe, (as you mentioned we all have our sets of beliefs here) ILCA remaining an Olympic class is and has been important so ILCA has had to "dance with the devil" to stay there.

There is no benefit to the vast majority of Laser sailors to it being an Olympic class. Hell, things would be better if we weren't.  ILCA doesn't have to dance wth the devil.  They are the devil; same as WS and IOC. 

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

There is no benefit to the vast majority of Laser sailors to it being an Olympic class. Hell, things would be better if we weren't.  ILCA doesn't have to dance wth the devil.  They are the devil; same as WS and IOC. 

How far do you want to go with this thought?  Does the World Championship bring benefit to the majority of Laser sailors?

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31 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

How far do you want to go with this thought?  Does the World Championship bring benefit to the majority of Laser sailors?

No but it also doesn't come with all the hoops and money sucking bureaucracy that spills out of IOC and then WC and ILCA.  I can't remember the language for this but I sailed in a class that wanted nothing to do with WS and all the associated mess.  They had to rename their world championship to be a ______________ class championship but if I recall correctly (been a while so...) that was all it took to do away with WS.

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36 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

How far do you want to go with this thought?  Does the World Championship bring benefit to the majority of Laser sailors?

 

43 minutes ago, Wess said:

There is no benefit to the vast majority of Laser sailors to it being an Olympic class. Hell, things would be better if we weren't.  ILCA doesn't have to dance wth the devil.  They are the devil; same as WS and IOC. 

Currently it's protecting the value of ILCA boats regardless who they belong to.  Have you checked the resale values lately? It also brings benefit to ILCA class members who enjoy organized/fair competition and MANY kids with Olympic dreams they couldn't possibly chase any other way.  This fuels Jr programs, coaching earnings, new ILCA dealers, club revenues when big ILCA fleets show up to their open events.  I could go on....

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

No but it also doesn't come with all the hoops and money sucking bureaucracy that spills out of IOC and then WC and ILCA.  I can't remember the language for this but I sailed in a class that wanted nothing to do with WS and all the associated mess.  They had to rename their world championship to be a ______________ class championship but if I recall correctly (been a while so...) that was all it took to do away with WS.

So no Olympics, no World Sailing, and generic parts is the proper course going forward? 

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42 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

 

Currently it's protecting the value of ILCA boats regardless who they belong to.  Have you checked the resale values lately? It also brings benefit to ILCA class members who enjoy organized/fair competition and MANY kids with Olympic dreams they couldn't possibly chase any other way.  This fuels Jr programs, coaching earnings, new ILCA dealers, club revenues when big ILCA fleets show up to their open events.  I could go on....

Make your case with examples but I gotta disagree. I don't think ILCA or WS to anything to protect the value of used boats.  Quite the contrary.  The depreciation of ILCAs or Lasers does not seem different (or in some cases maybe even drops off faster) than some other boats.

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38 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

So no Olympics, no World Sailing, and generic parts is the proper course going forward? 

All proper course questions must be directed to @tillermanas a matter of policy. 

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36 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

So no Olympics, no World Sailing, and generic parts is the proper course going forward? 

In Paris 2024, it looks likely that 33% of all events sailed in boats will be in an ILCA/Laser.

Our sport (sailboat racing) is being marginalized at the Olympics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Wess said:

Make your case with examples but I gotta disagree. I don't think ILCA or WS to anything to protect the value of used boats.  Quite the contrary.  The depreciation of ILCAs or Lasers does not seem different (or in some cases maybe even drops off faster) than some other boats.

I was going to edit my post but got lazy.  Correct WS has nothing to do with it.  However, (at least in my district) boats that sold for $1,000 3 years ago are fetching $ 2,500.00 now.  That's actually the cheapest price you're going to find an older/somewhat "beater" but still raceable boat in D12 right now.  Our numbers are proving that values have actually increased.  When they come on the market they last about 2 days.  I've NEVER seen the laser market this hot anywhere.  In addition our local dealer is selling out of ne boat ZIM deliveries as well.  I do believe COVID has had an affect.  However, without ILCA making the moves it did and getting new builders/supply back in NA as well as the boat becoming the Jr singlehanded trainer of choice, (thanks to growing acceptance of the 4.7 rig) AND being an Olympic class, (which let's face it is the ultimate "carrot") we would not