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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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10 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

If you follow FRAND shouldnt we replace the IOC every few years as they arent doing what sailors want?

OMG that is great LOL! Well done Sir! But don’t forget WS and the class managers as well!!

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Why should we care if Laser sailing or any sailing gets good TV ratings? Why do we care if more people (Tracy’s self stated goal if I recall correctly was growth in Asia and China) sail Lasers?

 ** Why doesn’t the class and sailing first and foremost care about and take care of those who do like sailing and are sailing the boat at the club level since that is where MOST of them are????? **

Neither China or Asia or Olympic TV viewers made the Laser the great boat it is. Ian Bruce did along with sailors who raced it in clubs in US and Europe. Maybe instead of screwing them and picking their pockets, ILCA could focus on them!

I still await, with bated breath, learning what you see ILCA doing that could help the average Joe who buys a used boat and joins the local club to sail Thursday nights and the odd club event, Like me. 

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I answered so many times I am tired of answering LOL. But first and foremost was and is stop picking our pockets. Second is allow the generic parts and sails that are already in widespread use at the club level. And third is allow generic boats. What that all equals is more affordable and accessible sailing at the club level and expansion of the class and sport.

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52 minutes ago, Wess said:

I answered so many times I am tired of answering LOL. But first and foremost was and is stop picking our pockets. Second is allow the generic parts and sails that are already in widespread use at the club level. And third is allow generic boats. What that all equals is more affordable and accessible sailing at the club level and expansion of the class and sport.

Do you think Ian Bruce would have gone along with your thinking? Why did he not go with multiple builders and sailmakers right away? I thought you favoured STRICT one design.

Club racers already can and do buy generic stuff and race. Nobody stopping them.

Seriously. How many new grass roots sailors buy new boats? More than used? No chance. Affordable, accessible and new don’t match up that well in the sailing game. Here on planet earth, way, way, more of the grass roots crowd buy used. 3 new members here did just that. They did not even consider new. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

I answered so many times I am tired of answering LOL. But first and foremost was and is stop picking our pockets. Second is allow the generic parts and sails that are already in widespread use at the club level. And third is allow generic boats. What that all equals is more affordable and accessible sailing at the club level and expansion of the class and sport.

If this were allowed the class would collapse.  It would become a "race to the bottom" and talk about boats manufactured in China being a problem?  No one in NA, (or any other decently developed non-communistic country)  would be able to pay employees low enough to support the generic boats "built on the cheap" business model.  And cheap they would be because in the race to the bottom corners would be cut and hulls would start flexing with mast steps busting loose within a year of delivery with no mfg warranty to help.

Name one other "Class" boat successfully employing this model?

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Bullshit. The generic parts didn’t create a race to the bottom. The generic sails didn’t create a race to the bottom. Quite the opposite. The quality was often better and the lower prices grew the fleet at the club level. Take away generic sails and you have fewer club level sailors. 
 

ILCA’s long standing refusal to allow the generic sails highlights exactly what is, was, and continues to be wrong with the organization and its single and solitary focus on the elite while they screw and take money from the grass roots and club level sailors through hidden fees.

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27 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yes, seriously. 

So you are unable to answer. Thought so.

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37 minutes ago, Wess said:

Bullshit. The generic parts didn’t create a race to the bottom. The generic sails didn’t create a race to the bottom. Quite the opposite. The quality was often better and the lower prices grew the fleet at the club level. Take away generic sails and you have fewer club level sailors. 
 

ILCA’s long standing refusal to allow the generic sails highlights exactly what is, was, and continues to be wrong with the organization and its single and solitary focus on the elite while they screw and take money from the grass roots and club level sailors through hidden fees.

Once you start getting back out you'll see the generic sails are alive and well at the club level.  As are a lot of other generic items like deck fittings an so on.  The class does not "sanction" club level events so they don't come under scrutiny unless someone decides to make a stand, but no one want to be "that guy" so... 

Also, once you get out you'll see the generic sails are not as well made as the class sails.  They look different and trim different.  I don't know who LPE is using for a sail supplier now.  If they are paying their bills they may be using North but their sails are about twice as much as an Intensity which seems to be the generic of choice here in the US. 

Hulls however would be a completely different story and you can't say it wouldn't.

Oh, and.. What other class has successfully done this generic free for all model?

 

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Sorry Robbie but we really do disagree here.  There is no difference between generic sails and parts... and hulls.  And ILCA is on the wrong side of all of it.  Take away generic sails and your club fleet will be smaller.  Add generic boats and your club fleet will be larger.  Just like it grew with generic sails.

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

If this were allowed the class would collapse.  It would become a "race to the bottom"

I think you're wrong. It would be a race to the top. I'm very confidence history shows that whilst competition between classes may well be on price, competition within a class is almost completely on boat speed. Because who, in the minority that shell out on new boats, wants a slow boat? There might well be competition on price in the holiday venue market, but my impression is that everything they get is so spectacularly discounted its like a different price list anyway.


Mind you a race to the top would be just as disastrous as a race to the bottom if not more so. One of the major attractions of buying a Laser has always been that you get the same sail s everyone else, the same boat as everyone else, the same gear as everyone else and even the same tuning as everyone else and you don't have to think about the boat between when you put the cover on and Sunday evening and take it off again the next Sunday morning. Take that huge lack of hassle and confidence in boat speed and what are you left with - a boat much like any number of others.

There are loads of classes that are completely open to any supplier, its a common enough model and some of them might have sold as many as 0.5% of the number of boats the Laser class has.

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Sorry Robbie but we really do disagree here.  There is no difference between generic sails and parts... and hulls.  And ILCA is on the wrong side of all of it.  Take away generic sails and your club fleet will be smaller.  Add generic boats and your club fleet will be larger.  Just like it grew with generic sails

I thought to make fun of Wess and ask if his favored supplier LPE support generic parts? (They don't, it was Rastegar's vision to control all parts of the game.)

But then t noticed that Wess has dropped his footer promoting 'The Laser Class'.

So maybe Wess no longer supports LPE?  

(Equally, I feel like digging up an old post where Wess claimed to support ILCA, and said that no way would Rastegar lose the legal case brought against LP for not paying royalties).

What Wess supports has dramatically changed over the years, except his support for generic parts, his anti Kirby position, and the consumption of rum. This was in spite of unthinkingly supporting contrary positions - supporting ILCA, supporting LP, supporting Rastegar, and supporting 'The Laser Class'. Though with his support of rum, I can't say how many posts Wess has made having supported the best part of a bottle.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

I think you're wrong. It would be a race to the top. I'm very confidence history shows that whilst competition between classes may well be on price, competition within a class is almost completely on boat speed. Because who, in the minority that shell out on new boats, wants a slow boat? There might well be competition on price in the holiday venue market, but my impression is that everything they get is so spectacularly discounted its like a different price list anyway.


Mind you a race to the top would be just as disastrous as a race to the bottom if not more so. One of the major attractions of buying a Laser has always been that you get the same sail s everyone else, the same boat as everyone else, the same gear as everyone else and even the same tuning as everyone else and you don't have to think about the boat between when you put the cover on and Sunday evening and take it off again the next Sunday morning. Take that huge lack of hassle and confidence in boat speed and what are you left with - a boat much like any number of others.

There are loads of classes that are completely open to any supplier, its a common enough model and some of them might have sold as many as 0.5% of the number of boats the Laser class has.

And yet generic sails worked out just fine. Go figure!?

I am outta here for 5 days of sailing and adventure in Boston and points north. Let’s leave Gouv in charge of the place. 

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

And yet generic sails worked out just fine. Go figure!?

I am outta here for 5 days of sailing and adventure in Boston and points north. Let’s leave Gouv in charge of the place. 

 

Have fun.

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JimC, race to the top, really get where you are coming from, and it's a nice term.

Pretty obviously if you have no restrictions on sails, then some jockey, goes to any sail loft, spends coupe 100 hours, tweaking a sail within a set of measurements (1st cost, how tight are the tolerances and the tighter they are the more expensive it it to measure, 2nd cost those 100's of hours) until he finds something that is just so for his style and body weight, and so that jockey has a name, take anyone that was in the top 5 of any of the last 10 years of Olympic or World or Asia and in some cases national events.   He then goes out in any race, from Olympic all the way down to club race, beats another suitably expert jockey, that jockey has 2 choices, go buy one of his sails (3rd cost, those 100's of hours have to be paid for some-how) or try and do better.   Buying one of his sails is pretty stupid because its designed to his idiosyncrasies dare I say tuned, so he then goes and tries to do one better (4th cost, duplication of work).   Race to the top, I like it.   Also a race to the top of the money spending list, which is why, open sail making tends to  be double the cost of single source, and for the last 20 years that is exactly what has happened.

Even with the 49er and all the costs we have with those sails making sure that those tolerances are really tight, the sailors pick say 10 mainsails, they know exactly what they are looking for and cherry pick what they can get, normally they keep the 2nd best also and sell off the rest.   Infinitely cheaper than the open sail scenario.

Pretty obviously, the sailors don't think tight enough, so they are openly willing to spend more money making them yet tighter again (moulded sails), but the quid-pro-quo is that may just last 3 times longer (watch this space)

Race to the top is an apt phrase.    No one is going to be caught dead, it would possibly be highly embarrassing, in a "Laser Class Worlds" (if ever) with a intensity made main.    It would be a complete waste of time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lots of statements of what Ian (Bruce) would have wanted!

A class comes about because of the vision of, and in 99% of the cases, 1 man or woman  (49er was 3 men) (29er also 3 men, only 2 where common Takao and myself) and then that grouping (it's yet to be a International Association [ICA's]) tend to be held together by that person or persons.     Some very deep conversations with Ian and Ward over just this topic.   Ward was the "grouping man".     I call them Global Sailing Communities [GSC's].

That GSC can meet the criteria of a ICA, but still function as a GSC, and the I49erCA is sort of that.

The key hallmarks of a GCS tend to be 4-5-6 people including the builders all working together harmoniously.   They tend to retain the figure-head, in the case of the then Laser Class it was Ian, but they need not be the driving force.

At some point politics rears it head and a GSC morphs into a ICA and often expels it figure head because having someone with the charisma and passion of Ian is a pretty hard act to follow.    So the 1987 edification of the laser class I see as this, sure Ian was ejected for financial reasons (Black Friday) and very possible Ian was not un-happy about being ejected.   I also remember Ward and Ian talking about the "exit clause" and when it happens you take it and run!   (their words not mine)

With just about any ICA that has lost it's GSC ethos, you have fiefdoms and gangs and all the politics and those things are just such a monumental waste of time and energy it is really beyond a joke.

No wonder Ward and Ian commented, take the exit and run, to me, this is late 90's into the early 2000's BTW.

Seen it all before and you will see it all again, nothing is really new about this, just how it is managed.

ILCA, after 1987 was Tim Coventry, I believe, he took over Top Dog, I doubt he was ever president, but he became the focus and I believe it was he who maintained the lock down on innovation.

As to what Ian would have wanted, he evolved, the Btye, the Mega Byte, then the C2Byte, also influenced in the 29er.   I find it pretty hard to believe that he would have kept the Laser "locked" so long given his mindset.

                      jB

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Guys, on a roll, sorry to bore your again.

Media and TV.

Any governing body is about allocating resources.    Really dose not matter if it's Biden, Putin, Xi, the IOC or ILCA or your local council/prefecture.  

The amount of resources they will allocate will be dependent on what "they" perceive as being important.

So you have your club, and this is a real life, actually happen here in Australia, it's functioning well as a sailing club, it started as a rock, you built a "sailing club" and for 10-20-30 years had active membership, all fine and danny.

At some stage some canoe-ers decide that your launching ramp is pretty cool for a morning paddle and they launch, before you know it, there are 300 of them and they have taken over more than 1/2 your storage space, sure they patronises the cafe, and the club is going gang busters.

To cut a long (and very real) story short, the founding fathers fortunately ensure that key voting right resided with Sailors and not associates (canoe-ers) and canoe owners did not want to pay the sailors membership for exactly the same reason some of you want to use generic sails.

Plus the Board utalised the successes of our Olympic prowess, got school sailing sport fired up and actual talked the council and Maritime to extending the ramp.

You may not give a rat-arse about TV or Media, but elected representatives do, it's elected reps that will determine what rate you pay on your maritime lease and have the power to hand your club over to say rowers.

Another council here has block access to the water along 80% of one of our beaches (to any form of boat/board) because of the success of our swimmers in the past.   It's interesting now, because Sailing is a highest performing sport.    That same council, recently did a video on Olympians in the area, my 2 siblings featured along with 2 other famies (a swimmer and 3 sailors)  plus they added me, because of the 49er/FX/Skud, so 6 of the 7 "Olympians" where sailors and that fact was not lost on the mayor.    She came up and spoke to my wife about it at length!

                          jB

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15 hours ago, Wess said:

And yet generic sails worked out just fine. Go figure!?

I am outta here for 5 days of sailing and adventure in Boston and points north. Let’s leave Gouv in charge of the place. 

 

I'm doing the ILCA ACC's this weekend BUT before I go....

Wess, I don't think you mean "Generic" when you discuss other classes with open sail makers.  While it's true any sailor can sail with any brand as long as it measures the competitive sailors are still paying big bucks for the "fast" sails like North, Quantum, UK and so on....

 

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18 hours ago, JimC said:

I think you're wrong. It would be a race to the top. I'm very confidence history shows that whilst competition between classes may well be on price, competition within a class is almost completely on boat speed. Because who, in the minority that shell out on new boats, wants a slow boat? There might well be competition on price in the holiday venue market, but my impression is that everything they get is so spectacularly discounted its like a different price list anyway.


Mind you a race to the top would be just as disastrous as a race to the bottom if not more so. One of the major attractions of buying a Laser has always been that you get the same sail s everyone else, the same boat as everyone else, the same gear as everyone else and even the same tuning as everyone else and you don't have to think about the boat between when you put the cover on and Sunday evening and take it off again the next Sunday morning. Take that huge lack of hassle and confidence in boat speed and what are you left with - a boat much like any number of others.

There are loads of classes that are completely open to any supplier, its a common enough model and some of them might have sold as many as 0.5% of the number of boats the Laser class has.

Great points.  I took Wess literally with the term "Generic" as in a ton of "Intensity" level sail and boat makers going for volume sales and not a "quality" model.  However, reading your post makes a lot of sense.  While I do think there would be a cheap boat as Julian pointed out those folks would never show at a top level event and those of us that do would become stuck in an arms race that would ultimately chase many of us away.  

BTW- I spoke to an ILCA dealer last night.  Looks like ILCA prices are about to go up $1,000.00.  Clearly there is demand!

 

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Its kinda ironic that the cheap replica sails are cheap *because* they are illegal for serious racing so there's no competitive pressure.

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7 hours ago, JulianB said:

...open sail making tends to  be double the cost of single source, and for the last 20 years that is exactly what has happened.

Hmmm, single source sails may be half the cost to make, but they cost the same to buy. A Macdiarmid made single-source Byte c2 sail from Hartley costs £899.  A North sails Solo sail is 20% bigger and costs £906.  There is an open choice of sailmaker with the Solo, but North have won most championships recently - other good choices are available for more and less.  Both the c2 and Solo are fully battened laminate sails.  

An ILCA sail with bag, battens and numbers is just shy of £600.  A Dacron Solo sail is £686 from North (again it’s a bigger sail). 
 

The typical weekend punter is not seeing this big saving from going single source and is being denied the opportunity to buy local and to seek continuous improvement.  

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9 hours ago, RobbieB said:

BTW- I spoke to an ILCA dealer last night.  Looks like ILCA prices are about to go up $1,000.00.  Clearly there is demand!

 

Anyone want to buy my Laser for $1000 more than you would have paid for it yesterday?

 

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8 hours ago, Board skiff said:

 

Hmmm, single source sails may be half the cost to make, but they cost the same to buy. A Macdiarmid made single-source Byte c2 sail from Hartley costs £899.  A North sails Solo sail is 20% bigger and costs £906.  There is an open choice of sailmaker with the Solo, but North have won most championships recently - other good choices are available for more and less.  Both the c2 and Solo are fully battened laminate sails.  

An ILCA sail with bag, battens and numbers is just shy of £600.  A Dacron Solo sail is £686 from North (again it’s a bigger sail). 
 

The typical weekend punter is not seeing this big saving from going single source and is being denied the opportunity to buy local and to seek continuous improvement.  

Your not comparing apples with apples.

go look at https://bethwaite360.com/sails-single-source-vs-open

That was 2016, we started in Nov 2000 when Tim Coventry and I did it, then every 4 years since.     We have done it again now, (2020)  but have had to switch to the 5o5 because it has a 3Di main/jib option.

Go look at the cost/m² as that is the only way you can actually compare.

The Laser and RXS main is approx 1/2 the cost/m² of the Optimist or Finn.    And that's some bracketing!

If you compare "serious" classes, they need not be Olympic, but where people take them seriously at a global level, then open is double single source.

That's just a simple fact, you really can't argue it.

Then you can also get into benefits of single source and the best use of available time.     And again, there are still people who love tinkering and there are classes that cater for those tinkers, in the single handed market its the Moth, OK, Solo, Saber etc, and if that rocks your boat, go rock your brains out.   (wonder what a 3Di Moth main is)

But if you opt for a ILCA/Laser you play by the other sailors rules, you spend a lot more time actually sailing rather than tinkering and that is a choice and with that choice comes conditions.

People sail a 49er because they aspire to, others sail I14 also because they aspire to, just the I14 has double or triple or 10 x the tinkering factor.     I was a massive tinkerer, I completely get it!   I have no idea what a 3Di I14 main is worth, but I can find out and I guess it will be approx double what the 49er one is.

                           jB

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Glaser 505 main: $1650 USD.

North I don't know what they charge.

Glaser smaller loft, U.S. and beats the pants off North so....

....cost wise that is a LOT more main than a laser....for not a lot of money. Not sure I see this argument being consistent.

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5o5 main is 14.7m² (according to WS)

49er main is 16.1m² again according to WS

You have stated a 5o5 main is $USD1650 and I don't know what that comes with, I assume not much.

Mackay Boats has a 49er main at $USD1700, and that includes, Batten, Repair Kit, Bag and I49erCA fee.

Battens are approx $230, (Mackay) I49erCA class fee is $100, repair kit is say $20 bag is say $25.

So take those off, you have 1700 - 230-100-20-25 = $USD 1325 then divide that by 16.1m² = $USD 82/m²

505, assuming its just a sail, is 1650/14.7 = $USD 112.24/m² so it's 150% approx. more.

And given the people who sail 5o5 and those that sail 49ers, it's not apples with apple, but Pink-ladies compared to Granny-smiths and I think the 5o5 class is being very well served by the Glaser main.

The reason we are looking at 5o5 is they do have 3Di mains and the 49er is going 3Di, so when all that washes out in say, in a month it will again be fascinating to compare, do this sum again.

Then you get into the more vexed question which is longevity and consistency.     The 3Di just may last significantly longer than the current panel sails, we will know in a year whether this has been a almighty f--k-up, or the nectar from the gods, and that's not just cost, but huge environmental impact also.        We did a lot of research re 3Di and we are lucky that a lot of the very best seats in sailing in the world are presently filled by ex 49er sailors, we asked the question to some of the very best plus on our steering party we have 4-6 of the very best!

But from a 49er sailors POV, it's all about consistency, if they can be confident that when they retire a main or a jib (jibs where by far the biggest issue) they pull another out of the bag and within 2-3 outings, they are exactly where they left off.    With panel sails that is expensive.   It's 99.9% of the reason for going 3Di.    Whats happening in trialing right now is bearing that all out, when dialed in they are really quick.    When dialed out they are ordinary!

Fortune favors the bold!

                         jB

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Sorry fastyacht I have been pinged almost immediately.

The reason I compared the Laser/RSX to the Optimist/Finn is they are all single-handedly with very similar sails (RSX isn't but it is a single hander).     My point being is that to compare say a Optimist to a 49er is a tad absurd.

You comparison of a 5o5 to a 49er is somewhat more valid, better would be a 470 - 49er purely because they are both double handers and both Olympic so they will be subjected to similar treatment.

But you can poke holes in anything, and I am not saying this is fool proof, just that it gives us a opportunity to compare and, when we do the this, we normally out-source it, normally to a Uni student so it's very much arms-length!

Also for those not aware of Australian varieties, Pink-ladies are eating apples, Granny-smiths you can also directly eat, but you tend to cook with them.    They tend to be more tart!    Both are apples, but they are different!

If the 3Di sails last 3 times as long, say, then we will have to work out a way to factor in Longevity plus Environmental factors!                 &

If they end up being significantly more consistent, then we will have to factor in simplicity, ease of use.

Environmental is pretty easy, we have already done it with the masts, easy to factor in.   Likewise Longevity is also a simple sum.     Consistency and ease of use, that will be harder!

                         jB

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7 hours ago, JulianB said:

Your not comparing apples with apples.

I have to respectfully disagree.  The Byte is an international youth class that is/was used in the youth games iirc and is an alternative to the Radial.  The Solo is the main alternative to the Laser in the UK.  It may not have Moth levels of competition, but it is a competitive class and every racing sailmaker offers a design for it.  The Solo sail is cheaper per m^2 than the Byte. 

Another example: The RS400 is a single-source sail too.  £949 for the main, £599 for the jib, £669 for the kite.  £2,217 for the set - excluding bags I think.

In contrast a set of championship winning Merlin Rocket sails from HD (the MR is a popular, competitive but wealthy man’s boat that the 400 is a one design spinoff of) cost £1014, £340 and £499 respectively (a £914 cross cut main is also available).  That is £1,853 (or £1,753 for the cross cut) - a saving of at least £364 and almost certainly better cut, better finished and better cloth. 
 

These may not be international classes and not “serious” to you but they represent the mainstream of sailing in the UK, their owners take their racing seriously,  their money is as valuable as any Olympian’s and there are many more of them. 
 

Would sail prices rise ILCA sails went open source within a set of measurements and no choice of cloth?  My guess is that top end sails would cost 10% more and come with better detailing, whilst the Intensity sails would still be 30% less.  So the consumer has a choice depending on whether they want to compete internationally, locally or not at all.

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12 hours ago, JulianB said:

5o5 main is 14.7m² (according to WS)

49er main is 16.1m² again according to WS

You have stated a 5o5 main is $USD1650 and I don't know what that comes with, I assume not much.

 

                         jB

505 includes *everything* including battens and even one flattening reef.

Why assume anything? You can pull up Glaser and see it for yourself before posting...

...But yes, the 3d laminate thing is interesting. What is going on at North is *very* interesting, I've sailed with a senior north guy a few times and learned inside scoops I will not share here...so yes, maybe something may come economically. We will see...

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16 hours ago, Board skiff said:
23 hours ago, JulianB said:

Your not comparing apples with apples.

I have to respectfully disagree.  The Byte is an international youth class that is/was used in the youth games iirc and is an alternative to the Radial.  The Solo is the main alternative to the Laser in the UK.  It may not have Moth levels of competition, but it is a competitive class and every racing sailmaker offers a design for it.  The Solo sail is cheaper per m^2 than the Byte.

Comparing the Solo with the Laser / ILCA is a great example of not comparing apples with apples.

Generally, larger sails have a lower cost per sq. M. than smaller sails.

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Guys, I knew the word seriously would offend, and I tried very hard to find another word!    Possibly the pedantic, some may say stupidity or grossly-over-zealous nature of the manner in which the people behind the Olympic teams take there work is more apt.      I sail every week out of the same club that hosts our Olympic team, and the extent to which the 20 odd support team go over every minutia detail of the boats, what is being done, you may think that the 5o5 dose that, and maybe in a short burst given the people involved, possibly, but some of these guys have been doing this every day of the week since the 1980's.   They are paid full time just to do this.   20 people, 20+ years, 20+ countries (on 5 continents) I'm betting the extent to which Olympic classes are scrutinised, maybe call it optimised, exceeds any other form of the sport and that certainly includes the AC.

JJ Glaser, I think I met in the 90.     Canada and US adopted the Antipodeans from the very early days of ISAF (2000's) and Pease Glaser was part of that, from memory she was a exception Tornado sailors, but unless I went and hassled Quriky, pulling a Glaser out of a bag has 2 major issues for me, I have never sailed a 5o5, no idea what I am looking for and I have no idea where to find Quriky, so even assuming he (or Nicho) has a Glaser, I assumed, (and you and now implying that I did so incorrectly) that Glaser was like every other sailmaker where even the simplest sail bag is an issue.

But regardless you can still do the sum, take off the cost of the battens, what ever they may be, but they are unlikely to be 6 full length battens, and the sum will still show the 5o5 main is still more /m² than a 49er or a Laser, so go your hardest.

But it dose sound like JJ is being exceptionally good to his 5o5 brethren and I applaud him for that.

And the same thing applies to comparing a Laser to a Solo.

Nothing in what you are saying would stop, if you un-burdened the single source sail-making that is currently part of the MMOD classes from these same people (the Olympic support teams) from completely re-writing the sail development programs and the sort of price escalation that is seen in non MMOD classes involved in the games.

2 final point, and they center around simplicity.    Presently you can only get one Laser Main, one 49er main, etc and by one, you don't have a Light air, and Medium air, and heavier air, a choppy water main that some of the other classes have.   That's just mains!  Spinnaker ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and that's just what I know.  We know from talking to, and I will refrain from mentioning the class, but it is Olympic, the cost of one of these specialist mains, and how long they have been told it will last competitively, provided they did not take it out of it's "envelop".    And these guys are using them in local races.

Just for a Milli-second think what would happen if say a Laser went open, (which is trying to bring this all back on thread), your wardrobe would end up being at least 5 mainsails, and if you took your super duper light air main out and a front came through, it's toast.    Just think of the logistics of managing all those sails, think of the cost and the environmental damage.

To even remotely think your Intensity main will cut it, it's just a farce!

The other one is far more up-beat, happen to run into some moth sailors, we started talking about 3Di and the general impression is they last a lot longer.    What I did find really amusing is they don't change mainsails for given conditions, they change masts.    Now there is a twist, and according to them, mast are easier to get, cheaper and last for ever (carbon, small diameter).

                  We need to KISS more now than ever before,

                               jB

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What Julian just described for open sail development in the Laser (everyone would have a quiver of 5 sails) sounds exaclty like windsurfing ca. 1990. Where is windsurfing now? Where would laser sailing be? (Where is it?)

There is going to be endless "lost in translation" because The Australian sailing scene that JB is in is totally completely perhaps utterly different from that of the U.S. And NZ? or England? Again, totally different. I can only speak with any decent sense of understanding about U.S. and more specifically East Coast/Inland. We've seen the bottom drop out of sailboat and especially dinghy racing here in my lifetime. This has not happened to the same extent in England (from conversations, though the same trend).

Laser in the U.S. is often the "last man standing." It doesn't mean the class is healthy, or vibrant, or any of that. Just that there are more of them, they are also loaded with good memories (mine included). For me, I sail them club level only now and only occasionally and they are too freking small for 17 stone sailors...

We may never get to the "bottom" of the problem. JB's point about Olympics is well taken. But if you've never sailed a 505, you may be underestimating the dedication knowledge and passion in the class. "Last Man Standing" may well apply to 505 too--last great world class dinghy left in vibrant world competition. The level of commitment and skill at the top is huge. "Famous" people come onboard and get spanked regularly. The top sailors are never guaranteed to win anything because there are many great sailors in that first 20 boats.

As for masts: Yep. Indeed the economics of masts has gone very low cost. I look back at a rig I designed in the late 80s with a carbon mast and realize that it was ahead of its time. Wishbone boom, carbon, etc. Nobody wanted it. Hahahahahahaha.

 

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A more useful comparison on sail prices might be Laser and Finn, both being Olympic and one closed and one open supply. I found a price for a Finn Mainsail at 1.639,33 EUR on a DE site. On another DE site I found ILCA 6(Hyde) as €565.00 and ILCA 7 (HYDE)€610.00. 

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A couple of posts back I spoke of just being told about the extents that one nation took, towards analyzing an aspect of an Olympic class, it happened to be a 49er.

It was not Australia.

I assure you that Australia and New Zealand are not the cauldron of creative thinking when it comes to methods to try and identify differences in some aspects of 9ers.     They certainly are not in some aspects of other Olympic classes.          I have been involved in some of this Non-Antipodean (non 9er) testing regime.

I think you may be blown away by whom is doing what and what they are doing, and I have to say that some of the stuff is very clever and I can see huge potential in what is being done, and what gains can be made.

Some of it un-mitigating crap, from my POV, but what do I know!

But if I disclose it, then they will never speak to me again, and nor should they, so don't ask.

Re the US, some interesting stuff some years back, but nothing for a while so go kick some butts.

Yep, 5o5's attract a certain level of loyalty, as do Laser as do 18teen, as do I14, and I think I14 and 5O5 are both tipping point boats so I have great respect for both of them, along with Moths.

Plus I do know Nicho, very well, my brother won something in 5o's in HK in the 70's, Dave Porter and I did a huge amount of testing and  Holger Jess is one of our biggest 9er dealers in Europe, plus I have seen countless 5o5s in various stages of construction in Ovington's and in the past Rondars.

But nothing prepares you for the red hot poker that is the Olympics, and that's, Designers, Builder and Sailors alike!

Nothing,     jB

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

That should have been the new name for the ex-laser class, Not "ILCA."  Call it the Red Hot Poker.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMngoY1zMpIQpDF_YmA4c

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7 hours ago, fastyacht said:

There is going to be endless "lost in translation" because The Australian sailing scene that JB is in is totally completely perhaps utterly different from that of the U.S. And NZ? or England? Again, totally different. I can only speak with any decent sense of understanding about U.S. and more specifically East Coast/Inland.

While based in Australia it is reductionist to think of Julian as embedded in Australian sailing, his views are assuredly less myopic than those of the great unwashed.

7 hours ago, fastyacht said:

But if you've never sailed a 505, you may be underestimating the dedication knowledge and passion in the class. "Last Man Standing" may well apply to 505 too--last great world class dinghy left in vibrant world competition. The level of commitment and skill at the top is huge. "Famous" people come onboard and get spanked regularly. The top sailors are never guaranteed to win anything because there are many great sailors in that first 20 boats.

I'm sure that many classes would argue that they too offer vibrant competition at their world champs. (505s never got established in NZ, so I'm one of many who have never sailed one).

A quick look at international classes show a number in poor shape, but also show a number which are not. In recent years we've seen the emergence of the Musto skiff, the 49er and others. Plus the OK dinghy seems to be going through a renaissance, and the Optimist shows no sign of waning. The International Moth is yet another... ...and the 470 and 420 are still strong.

Also there is the ILCA in the three popular forms.

Sailing as a sport is resilient, and shows no sign of withering and dying.

The reasons that make the 505 strong are repeated across a number of classes, and display why the sport of sailing is resilient.

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17 hours ago, JulianB said:

Gu

 

                  We need to KISS more now than ever before,

                               jB

I do aree with this.

It is hard though because even in relatively straightforward classes, the sail makers discover a tweak here and there.

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10 hours ago, fastyacht said:

That should have been the new name for the ex-laser class, Not "ILCA."  Call it the Red Hot Poker.

Tokyo will be the boat’s 7th Olympics. That is a lot of red hot poker-ing! And she lives on!

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47 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I have a new Regatta rag and a more used local sailing rag but I am very unhappy it sat me back over $1000 to get my pristine Laser back up to full speed.

Sure you aren't implying that a new sail costs US$1000, sure you must have spent some money elsewhere, but others might read it that a new sail costs US$1000.

A new ILCA sail is US$550 (ILCA 4), US$575 (ILCA 6) and US$650 (ILCA 7).

From West Coast Sailing:

image.png.be9b16fc735fce9ac668a120ec116803.png

Hey @WestCoast - I am pretty sure these prices have come down slightly? (Wasn't the Radial $600 last year?) Care to comment?

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9 hours ago, JimC said:

A more useful comparison on sail prices might be Laser and Finn, both being Olympic and one closed and one open supply. I found a price for a Finn Mainsail at 1.639,33 EUR on a DE site. On another DE site I found ILCA 6(Hyde) as €565.00 and ILCA 7 (HYDE)€610.00. 

Except the Finn sail is bigger, made from the best cloth money can buy, cut to suit a mast with bespoke bend characteristics and has greater tolerance in what is allowable than the ILCA would presumably allow. 
Compare the Olympic Finn to the non Olympic Solo - they use the same cloth if nothing else. The Finn works out at 20% more per square metre, not a bad premium for individualised luff curves, especially as I guess most Olympians don’t pay VAT. 

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I tend to just compare the RS Aero 7 sail and ILCA7 sails, both similar cuts from North, you would think there would be an economy of scale influence, but doesn't seem to be.

Seeing numbers on how many ILCA sails are sold per year compared to other classes would be enlightening 

 

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2 hours ago, JMP said:

I tend to just compare the RS Aero 7 sail and ILCA7 sails, both similar cuts from North, you would think there would be an economy of scale influence, but doesn't seem to be.

Hmmmm... checking the prices of West Coast Sailing:

image.png.4e9df56c1f3cc6a81e6b913b38b271b8.png

versus:

image.png.b423a883c8619fb19e45500bd4d8e230.png

 

Seems that for now, North Americans ILCA sails are significantly less expensive than RS Aero sails.

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4 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Seems that for now, North Americans ILCA sails are significantly less expensive than RS Aero sails.

North American's do seem to get a pretty good deal.

In the UK the Aero sail is significantly cheaper, even before you add in the additional cost of ILCA battens for the MKII
RS Aero 7m Sail - RS Sailing (rssailingstore.com) - £468.61
ILCA 7 Sail – MK2 – ILCA Spare Parts and accessories (ovingtonboats.com) - £549.00


The Aero7 sail is similarly cheaper in Australia compared to the ILCA7:
02-RS Aero 7m Sail AER-SA-101 - self fit numbers included (sailingraceboats.com.au) - A$995.00
ILCA 7 Mk II sail - North Sails - PSA Sailing Online Shop - A$1,040.00

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19 minutes ago, JMP said:

North American's do seem to get a pretty good deal.

In the UK the Aero sail is significantly cheaper, even before you add in the additional cost of ILCA battens for the MKII
RS Aero 7m Sail - RS Sailing (rssailingstore.com) - £468.61
ILCA 7 Sail – MK2 – ILCA Spare Parts and accessories (ovingtonboats.com) - £549.00


The Aero7 sail is similarly cheaper in Australia compared to the ILCA7:
02-RS Aero 7m Sail AER-SA-101 - self fit numbers included (sailingraceboats.com.au) - A$995.00
ILCA 7 Mk II sail - North Sails - PSA Sailing Online Shop - A$1,040.00

Sails here in NZ are Oz prices, plus freight. $1,299 NZD. (is US$931).

Yup. Small differences in the UK and Oz between the RS Aero and the ILCA. Big differences in the US.

Before Covid, I'd simply get someone from the US to bring one back... but now, you know, our borders are mostly closed - just open a little to our neighbors (Oz and the Cook Islands).

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On 5/23/2021 at 2:40 AM, Gouvernail said:

Great day for sailing. The kids were blasting around and a half mile away it was raining so hard we couldn’t see up the lake... but it just sat there a half mile to the southeast while they sailed and sailed and sailed 

The ACC's were fun and brutal....Back to the big fleet drawing board for me, but it was great sharing the course with Hurley, Hollowell and others..  Sailing was tight and very clean.  I'd say boats 1 through 27 finished the course within 3-5 minutes of each other.  The class has some very fast kiddo's out there!

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Comparing prices of sails for class X vs Class Z in Wagga Wagga vs Chattanooga is all very fine but it doesn't compare to actually sailing.

Raced yesterday at my home club on Lake Massapoag for the first time since before the Trump virus fiasco.  Remembered again why I love the RS Aero so much but man do I need some more practice to even get back to my old form. I tried being friendly to a Laser sailor on one of the downwinds by asking him a question about the course but the distraction made him death roll. I am a bad person.

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

The ACC's were fun and brutal....Back to the big fleet drawing board for me, but it was great sharing the course with Hurley, Hollowell and others..  Sailing was tight and very clean.  I'd say boats 1 through 27 finished the course within 3-5 minutes of each other.  The class has some very fast kiddo's out there!

114 sailors - nice!

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

with a total of “over $1000” Only idiots who didn’t read my post would conclude each sailcost $1000

I failed to complain about the additional funds fir a new top section and the fancy CTB brake 

There seems to be a high level of people willing and able to misinterpret what others say, not just generally on SA, but specifically in this thread. :)

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2 hours ago, Metoxi said:

From the article:

"Man of the Day has to be Joe Woodley. He brought an old Laser 169XXX and got it racing for under £500. For some odd reason he had several twigs in the holes drilled into the bows (apparently where the semi-permanent fender had been placed by the previous owner). Joe managed to get into the top 10! This just shows that you don't need mega bucks to race."

  1. What were the twigs for?
  2. How many bows did his Laser have?
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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

The laser I raced in 1979 had only 4 numbers on the sail. It leaked. And it was green.

My first Laser was yellow and had five numbers. It leaked, had a stretched sail, a bent top section, and needed mast step repairs. (All remedied). I sanded off most of the gel and got it painted white. (Looking back, that was a big mistake).

I then bought a new one, made in Henderson, Auckland, NZ.

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6 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:
  1. How many bows did his Laser have?

In my (UK?) sailing dictionary the bow is the immediate front of the boat, and the bows are the general area of the forward part of the boat. 

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9 hours ago, fastyacht said:

The laser I raced in 1979 had only 4 numbers on the sail. It leaked. And it was green.

The Laser I raced in 1958  was purple and had an orange sail. The tiller was a PVC pipe and the sheet was my Grannie's washing line. It leaked two gallons an hour and had a torn sail repaired with duct tape, oak trees growing out of its bows and rhododendrons growing out of its sterns.

But I was happy.

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3 minutes ago, tillerman said:

The Laser I raced in 1958  was purple and had an orange sail. The tiller was a PVC pipe and the sheet was my Grannie's washing line. It leaked two gallons an hour and had a torn sail repaired with duct tape, oak trees growing out of its bows and rhododendrons growing out of it sterns.

Yabit duc tape wasnt invented in 1958. My 1948 laser had flaxen sails and came with a bronze garboard plug.

Bit I envy yoir rhododendrons. Especially woth the pirple hull. Nicely coordinated and a living telltale too!

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Well Boston was nice. And the kid and I got to man some really unique boats.  She was even asked to autograph one of them.

I see you folks are still arguing the theoretical risk and benefits of generic sails.  You do realize they have been around now for more than a decade (?), there is nary a fleet around that doesn't have a few (to a lot) and the sky never fell.  In fact the sun came out and the bluebirds sang pretty songs.

Oh and hey USMA, USCGA, and USNA all use LPE Lasers!!  And its commissioning week so...

Go Navy; beat Army. And...

Go The Laser Class!!

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57 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Yabit duc tape wasnt invented in 1958. My 1948 laser had flaxen sails and came with a bronze garboard plug.

Bit I envy yoir rhododendrons. Especially woth the pirple hull. Nicely coordinated and a living telltale too!

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrVxV1Y0cBnT2yC_qGHX7

Those damned garboard plugs! What were they thinking?

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36 minutes ago, Wess said:

Lots of great events at The Laser Class!

https://www.thelaserclass.com/events/

And no ILCA tax man picking your pockets!

Wow!  Some of the best sailing locations in Europe. Sailed a Laser Masters Worlds at Roses and an RS Aerocup at Garda in years gone by. Definitely "bucket list" venues.

2016672581_aerosgarda2016cliff.thumb.jpg.57b41d244fbd7d8431808ed11c1fba12.jpg

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12 hours ago, Wess said:

Lots of great events at The Laser Class!

https://www.thelaserclass.com/events/

And no ILCA tax man picking your pockets!

I am going to definitely enquire about hosting an event as solicited in the link. Easy to plan for and accommodate one competitor. I just need to find a measurer. Maybe LPE will sponsor the lunches. If they can afford it. 

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20 hours ago, Metoxi said:

Italy (Como) and Holland cancelled.

Portugal, location TBA.

Germany and Switzerland 1 entry each currently.

Not looking great.

Good sleuthing. 

So the Laser Class is all smoke and mirrors? Who cold have guessed that? LOL.
 

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Its only a flesh wound. And with the death of the Olympics the mortal shot may be fired at WS and then ILCA!  One can only hope.

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Well having seen off a bunch of ENS and LT on Friday and now finally the rain has stopped, it’s time to unfurl a flag, go for a sail and remember some friends no longer with us. 
 

Laser or tri or UFO or... hmmmm

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On 5/29/2021 at 10:18 AM, Metoxi said:

Italy (Como) and Holland cancelled.

Portugal, location TBA.

Germany and Switzerland 1 entry each currently.

Not looking great.

There are only so many venues and so many people willing to volunteer to help run a regatta.

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So what are all the lemming up to this fine Tuesday morning?  I snuck in a sunrise Laser sail before work.  Had my new The Laser Class gear.  Wore my Torch T-shirt and belt.  No ILCA displays yet. Anybody want to send me some? I promise not to abuse it... to badly LOL. 

Anyway I don't know that it will work but having scored a Grand Canyon NP R2R permit I need to work on the quads... what better way than some Laser sailing!!

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Had my new The Laser Class gear. 

The Laser Class Lemming lives!

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Its true.  I still got it!

I think your leader is face down on the rocks…

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I think your leader is face down on the rocks…

Who dat?

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He done died? Because LP ain’t dead. It lives in in various forms.

But either way I am hopeful you will send me some rum soon. And ILCA stuff for me to proudly display LOL.

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

He done died? Because LP ain’t dead. It lives in in various forms.

But either way I am hopeful you will send me some rum soon. And ILCA stuff for me to proudly display LOL.

Buy that gold PSA ILCA. It would look good on you. Is there some unknown reason I should send you rum? Birthday?

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Because The Laser Class is better than ILCA!!!

And no re the the PSA boat.  China ILCAs bad.  PSA almost as bad.  I like NA or Europe boats.  And affordable ones!! 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Pass

I am just here to trigger the Fly.  And to see if ILCA EVER gets us a NA builder as they claimed.  Or if they ever stop piling hidden fees on new boats. 

13 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Laser Races start at 6 pm . ICLAs tolerated 

Gold!

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

I am just here to trigger the Fly.  And to see if ILCA EVER gets us a NA builder as they claimed.  Or if they ever stop piling hidden fees on new boats.

Nope. You’re old news. Washed up. Nothing new. Time to hang up your fishing rod. 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Nope. You’re old news. Washed up. Nothing new. Time to hang up your fishing rod. 

Oh come on I still catch quite a few with every post LOL.  And Gouv is right (again) nobody ever retires from fishing.  They retire to it.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Oh come on I still catch quite a few with every post LOL.  And Gouv is right (again) nobody ever retires from fishing.  They retire to it.

Maybe. But they change their lures. 

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