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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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3 hours ago, JimC said:

Thinking about it, I suppose the Laser Class has long relied on good faith from single source suppliers and the construction manual for things that measurement rule classes have to legislate. So there's been no need to specify the emblem of the sail because sails weren't supplied without one, and in any case its probably specified in the construction manual, which in turn was controlled privately by contract law. 

 

47 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I have made this observation before. There is no rule with respect to the emblem even being on the sail. There is only a rule that the sail be bought from a licensed builder. Those are the words. Intent is another subject. 

Rules, rules, rules, rules, rules,rules......

What is the matter with you people?

This is Sailing Anarchy.

True anarchists don't need no stinking rules.

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18 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Then is it ironic that SA has rules?

True!  I forgot how this place was like the wild west 20+ years ago.  Damn!  20+ years ago!?!

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45 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Then is it ironic that SA has rules?

It is. 

It is also ironic that a sport like sailing has so many rules... and so many rules freaks.

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Rules?  Who follows those even if you have them? If ILCA don't follow rules why should we?

Anyone seeing all those posts around SA about fake documentation... its just as easy to get or make a fake ILCA boat sticker LOL!!

Rules. Pfffft!

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Rules?  Who follows those even if you have them? If ILCA don't follow rules why should we?

Anyone seeing all those posts around SA about fake documentation... its just as easy to get or make a fake ILCA boat sticker LOL!!

Rules. Pfffft!

 

I follow the rules. 

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Both ILCA and I also follow the rules.

 

Unlike Wess who just makes them up to justify whichever argument he is using at the time .

Like a poor mans Trump or Boris.:D

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19 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

What a bunch of doublespeak bullshit.

You are fully aware of the meaning of the laser symbolism used in the Constitution

Here is what needs to be done:

1. An amendment something like the following needs to be written :

”This Amendment changes the official class emblem from the International laser symbol to the four letters ILCA  presented as the graphic in figure 1.”

2. The World Council

needs to vote to accept the amendment

3. the class members need to vote to accept the amendment

4. The IYRU ( or whatever that entity is calling itself) needs to approve the amendment 

 

It IS that sImple!!

… for that one step.

 

The Class also needs to find every single reference to Laser anywhere it is found, write up an appropriate amendment and go through the approval process. 
 

Any middle school kid who regularly earns A grades in civics, and grammar ought to be able to write the amendments. 

just Do it!!!

 

For those who have their panties on a wad snd want me to back off…..

No!!

 

we all know the right way.

not the right way is the wrong way

 

just do it 

I have no doubt that you have already approached your local rep Gouv since you feel strongly about making the above changes, and they will be consequently be raised at the next ILCA World Council meeting.

Note that ILCA has an agreement to use the Laser symbol made in 2019, replacing the 1998 agreement. I'm not saying that what you propose doesn't have merit, however from a legal point of view is not required, as ILCA already has the necessary permissions to use the trademark.

This 2019 release from ILCA talks about the agreement made which I believe is still current:

Quote

ILCA has entered into a trademark license agreement with Velum Limited, the trademark holding company for Laser Performance. The agreement covers use of the LASER trademark for the conduct of sailing events and for use on various items. This agreement replaces the so-called “1998 Agreement” which Velum erroneously claimed was due to expire in August of this year. In spite of these claims, the 1998 Agreement was set to run in perpetuity.

ILCA has agreed to a new contract as a show of good faith negotiations towards the more important goal of achieving a FRAND compliant policy for our class. While a positive symbol of cooperation, it should be noted that this trademark agreement is not in any way related to the ongoing discussions to remain in the Olympics.

After numerous attempts to negotiate a new trademark agreement over several years, signing a new agreement came only after Laser Performance finally agreed to remove the provisions that would have given away control of our class and disrupted our finances – both of which were unacceptable to the ILCA World Council.

With these conditions removed, the proposed agreement essentially mirrored the agreement ILCA has been prepared to sign since 2016, but had been repeatedly either rejected or ignored by Laser Performance.

For clarity, a new trademark agreement has never been a pre-condition for factory inspections or approval of Laser Performance as a class builder. Re-approval is a completely separate issue that must be negotiated and agreed in coordination with all parties to the Laser Construction Manual Agreement.

ILCA is hopeful that with this issue behind, Laser Performance can now focus on the primary task of reaching agreement with the other commercial parties on a process that will achieve World Sailing’s Olympic Equipment Policy.

 

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And yet the sailing goes on and the class is in better shape than it has been in years. Arguably some points of order may be in question, but to nobody’s real detriment. Certainly not with respect to on the water activities. IMHO the awkwardness of the process to get us here is far outweighed by the positive result. Additional costs aren’t inexplainable and the used boat market is getting stronger.

Oh - and lemmings fall to their death. Seems the ILCA followers’ sailing fortunes have taken a nice upward turn. Long live ILCA!

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23 minutes ago, spankoka said:

It was about 1970 then.......

And the boys on the floor in Pointe Claire were usually, uh, on the floor…

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From memory, most of the workers at Hymns Boulevard where French Canadian women.   Not challenging as to whether they where on the floor or not, I was sheltered/protected by Ian and Peter (Bjorn).   The men where mostly Portuguese. A single layer of 18oz WR would have had unbelievable shrink and distortion marks.   3/4oz (225gms for those younger) has lots of benefits up against the gel-coat, 120gms is better, but you then have to back it up with more.

Just chatting the other day, Tasar 276 is still sailing and apparently competitively and well, its got to be approaching 50 years old.    Nothing wrong with that laminate!

                        jB

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Sunfish have 18oz wr. So does my rowboat. Neither have shrink problems. I built thistles out of 18oz and 3/4 mat. Only dark hulls got bad print through due to post cure. Easy solution  ppst cure in mold lol.

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16 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Mast step replaced?

No, original. Not necessarily an issue on mostly windless English Bay. 

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I have a Laser coming in for repairs soon .

Owner has sheared the bolts that hold the mainsheet block to the deck .

The owner thinks that they are just self tapping screws ?

From memory I think they are bolts tapped into some form of composite ?

Never had much luck with easy outs to remove small stainless fasteners , so am I looking at installing a deck hatch and through bolting or is there a better solution ?

Any advise will be appreciated .

 

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1 hour ago, Justaquickone said:

I have a Laser coming in for repairs soon .

Owner has sheared the bolts that hold the mainsheet block to the deck .

The owner thinks that they are just self tapping screws ?

From memory I think they are bolts tapped into some form of composite ?

Never had much luck with easy outs to remove small stainless fasteners , so am I looking at installing a deck hatch and through bolting or is there a better solution ?

Any advise will be appreciated .

 

Pretty sure they are screws into a wood backing.

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Pretty sure they are screws into a wood backing.

Pretty sure they are ST into alloy pads.

Knock them into the hull with a punch and then heli-coils the alloy, put in MT.

Never come out if don't right!

            jB

 

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6 hours ago, Justaquickone said:

I have a Laser coming in for repairs soon .

Owner has sheared the bolts that hold the mainsheet block to the deck .

The owner thinks that they are just self tapping screws ?

From memory I think they are bolts tapped into some form of composite ?

Never had much luck with easy outs to remove small stainless fasteners , so am I looking at installing a deck hatch and through bolting or is there a better solution ?

Any advise will be appreciated .

 

Depends on the brand. PSA (and I believe PSJ) are tapped into an Aluminium backing plate. LP is screwed into a wood block.

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8 hours ago, Justaquickone said:

I have a Laser coming in for repairs soon .

Owner has sheared the bolts that hold the mainsheet block to the deck .

The owner thinks that they are just self tapping screws ?

From memory I think they are bolts tapped into some form of composite ?

Never had much luck with easy outs to remove small stainless fasteners , so am I looking at installing a deck hatch and through bolting or is there a better solution ?

Any advise will be appreciated .

 

Sheared the bolts?  This is a laser, not a GL70 or some other boat that sails under tremendous loads.  

They are not "bolts" they are round headed, Philips SS screws.  I believe #10 and about 2" long. 

I find this whole post suspect.  If you're the paid for "fix it" guy why are you looking for the solution here?    

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Thank you LPE for your support of Navy Sailing!

image.png.50ce7b9a56dc72f8ae400d7defe0575e.png

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13 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I failed to notice your “some mat”

if they had built the boats in two steps, allowing  3/4 Oz mat to cute before adding 18 Oz roving the  boats would have been made of similar total glass  with some  print through over the years. 
I don’t know exactly how much

mat is on the laser hull but I have always suspected it is about 2.5 to 3 oz per square foot 

18 oz roving over 3/4 oz mat would net out at 2.75 per square foot but there would be less resin and less panel stiffness. 
but… the roving should stand up a little better to repeated forcing cycles

impact holes punched in the hull would be harder to create but pulled forward red would extend much further beyond any holes than in a Matt layup. 

I think the long term economics of build cost and durability would be better for the sailors if the hull had a few key reinforcements rather than a roving laminate and none or fewer such reinforcements. 
 

Given  the opportunity any time after when I  first saw the Laser in 1969 at the America’s Teacup Regatta i would have rounded the  parts of The deck where we sit and  made water diverting ribs to both stiffen the deck snd keep the cockpit drier. 
i would not have gone into production with a flat panel cored and I would  have removed a lot of material from the gunwales and used that material to stiffen the entire boat 

 I would have built the boat lighter, stronger, more durable and accomplished it for less  money …. But I absolutely would not have messed with the hull or foils …. Except I would have built the centerboards exactly as the designed 33 mm foil in fiberglass over a hard foam core using aluminum molds. 
 

Today, The technology exists to simply extrude a continuous sheet of solid reinforced plastic snd machine Tge chopped off sections to look exactly

like the Compton foam boards. But I cannot claim I would have done that because I didn’t know, back then, it could be done. 
 

every few years since 1969, a window of opportunity has passed during which the Laser could have been modernized without harming the existing fleet. 
 

Although new sails have repeatedly made old ones obsolete, no one has been able to seek the powers that be on the fact the old hulls obsolete  themselves and the introduction of a better stiffer lighter more durable Laser would only seriously change the competitiveness  of well cared for lightly used hulls.  
 

Look at any regatta photo from 1972 on and you will see very few or even zero boats that are ten years old and fewer still in the front at big regattas. 
 

Availability of a newer faster Laser would not change the finish order 

Reasonable points.

Sunfish are built with roving. They far outlast lasers in stiffness.

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Thank you LPE for your support of Navy Sailing!

image.png.50ce7b9a56dc72f8ae400d7defe0575e.png

What was the support? Discount memberships?

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Sigh.  Canadian lawn mowers.  And class administrators.

 

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

Sigh.  Canadian lawn mowers.  And class administrators.

 

Prizes? Scholarships? Laser Class Stickers? 

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10 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Sheared the bolts?  This is a laser, not a GL70 or some other boat that sails under tremendous loads.  

They are not "bolts" they are round headed, Philips SS screws.  I believe #10 and about 2" long. 

I find this whole post suspect.  If you're the paid for "fix it" guy why are you looking for the solution here?    

Easy Robbie .  Boats coming  next week and where better to ask for advice than on a Laser forum ?

I have worked on a fair few Lasers over the years and found they can all be a little different on the inside .

Just trying to find a few alternative solutions to keep my time and the  repair cost to a minimum.

Really don't want to be cutting holes in decks that aren't necessary .

Thank you to all that have responded .

Cheers.

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I was impressed a guy who is somebody’s trusted repairman has the sense to seek advice rather than reinvent on his own. 

Was hoping to get a response from you as you seem to have some vast knowledge regarding Lasers .

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23 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

If I knew the hull number I MIGHT know what is under the deck as backing. 
 

Odds are the final solution will include an access plate on that panel next to the Centerboard trunk and simply putting nuts and washers under the deck.

 

if you do that, the TH marine SCREW IN deck plate is a pretty good option.

why?? Because if you use a Viking or a beckson the sailor will put his knee through it 

DO NOT USE the low profile twist out. It only has to back up a quarter turn to fall out 

 

explanation 

The TH design has a nice thick cap whose outside diameter is as big as the outside diameter of the part that fastens to the deck. 
 

look at the picture. You don’t see the ring that is screwed to the deck 

On the Viking / sea dog / beckson hatches you can break the threaded part of the ring loose from the ring that screws to the deck. 
 

On the TH, the lid covers the whole thing. 
 

unfortunately TH doesn’t seem to make a 5” 

so you cannot replace a Viking or seadog 5 inch with a TH 

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/t-h-marine-sure-seal-deck-plates-screw-out?hvarAID=shopping_googleproductextensions&ds_e=GOOGLE&ds_c=Shop|Generic|AllProducts|High|SSCCatchAll&gclid=CjwKCAjwn6GGBhADEiwAruUcKrVle3a-iLqrCGh0dYMXI9XFPRilVz_RItc8EWXnYO07Bmm23fU-yhoCMfoQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thanks for the advise , much appreciated .

I have no idea what the sail number is . I am in the southern hemisphere so construction may vary.

I still get Lasers in that are up to 40 years old so small things like  block reinforcements might be different .

Most of my work on them is usually collision damage , leaky centre cases and occasionally cracked or worn mast socket.

Again thanks for the advise .

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Hey ILCA just announced a NA Laser builder as they long promised they would!! Its a miracle!!!

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Hey ILCA just announced a NA Laser builder as they long promised they would!! Its a miracle!!!

Good scoop! Where is the announcement?

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10 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Good scoop! Where is the announcement?

Exactly!!

 

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13 hours ago, Wess said:

Hey ILCA just announced a NA Laser builder as they long promised they would!! Its a miracle!!!

As much as I'd love to see this, I don't, (anywhere).  I've not even heard rumors of the possibility.....

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Picked up some pieces at the local ILCA dealer yesterday. Saw some bright and shiny fittings with the new ILCA bar code. I asked how much of an increase he is seeing and he said he didn’t even notice. Plus - he has sold out his initial order of new boats from Zim. This after not even able to get a single boat out of Wess’s true love (LPE) for years. Long live ILCA! And soaring lemmings! 

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Since you brought up your "builder in NA lie" thought (again), I thought it apropos to show this from the chronicles:

The manufacturers approved to move forward in the application process are (in alphabetical order): 
Devoti Sailing s.r.o. (Poland)
Element 6 Evolution Co Ltd  (Thailand)
Nautivela srl (Italy)
Ovington Boats Ltd (United Kingdom)
Qindao Zou Inter Marine Co., Ltd (China)
Rio tecna srl (Argentina)
Zim Sailing (United States)

Zim US pulled out. Unless I missed something, ILCA did not lie. Your post above is a good example of a lie. Your calling ILCA liars is a lie. You just can't handle the truth (insert Nicholson clip here) that ILCA are good for the sport and did what they did out of necessity. And their actions have created 6 more builders which benefits all - even grass roots sailors like me. So - you are wrong and a liar, too. I fart in your general direction (insert Python clip here).

 

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53 minutes ago, Otterbox said:

An unintended side effect of the ILCA changes.... quality

ILCA shakeup delivers a new focus on quality to the class (marinebusinessworld.com)

"We consider ourselves as a high-end composite product and parts builder rather than just a boat builder."  

Sounds like a positive thing to me. Is this the future for small boat building?

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8 hours ago, Otterbox said:

An unintended side effect of the ILCA changes.... quality

ILCA shakeup delivers a new focus on quality to the class (marinebusinessworld.com)

There are tight parameters with which these new Lasers branded ILCA can compete - the difference will be quality of product including durability, customer service and price. Because these boats are raced, price is only significant when perceived quality is equal.

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Gouvernail,

Wonder if you actually read this article. The E6E guys did not suggest that building ILCA boats was a high end process at all.  They were talking about consistent quality. Something which could put an end to Olympic sailors stressing about the variability of dimensions of supplied boats.

Why do you feel the need to diss them?

A quote...

'Our technology span is big, we build the Olympic Nacra 17, the Nacra 15 and 20, Goodall designs, foils for Nacra, Hobie, Starboard and others, as well as aerospace and automobile products employing a variety of processes, prepreg, RTM, Infusion, pressure moulding and automated lay ups and now we have added the ILCA dinghy."

'The polyester open mould process used in the ILCA build is a blast from the past when we have been so focused on close mould, infusion, automation and pre-preg cleanliness, but we have no choice under the strict ILCA build rules. We are, however, as automated as we can be under the build rules and have applied the same build standard and QC processes to the ILCA that we do with all our other boats so, we are turning out a consistent and well-finished product'.

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So there is no NA ILCA builder?  I am shocked I tell you!!

Maybe it will happen soon...  :D

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26 minutes ago, Wess said:

So there is no NA ILCA builder?  I am shocked I tell you!!

Maybe it will happen soon...  :D

Still 7 more builders than LP "Lasers". 

Also, not in and never will be built in NA....I mean, like, never. 

At least there's still a chance for ILCA because it's not a monopoly builder class..

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18 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Still 7 more builders than LP "Lasers". 

Also, not in and never will be built in NA....I mean, like, never. 

At least there's still a chance for ILCA because it's not a monopoly builder class..

How many approved builders of ILCAs does the ILCA really want?
1. 8 is the perfect number. We're going to roll with what we got.
2. It's costly to police 8 builders. We wouldn't mind at all if 2 or 3 ILCA builders dropped out in the next year.
3. We really want a lot more builders and are actively pursuing opportunities to identify more builders.

 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Still 7 more builders than LP "Lasers". 

Also, not in and never will be built in NA....I mean, like, never. 

At least there's still a chance for ILCA because it's not a monopoly builder class..

This is the headscratcher part. Thousands upon thousanfs of shitty (and I mean shitty) motorboats are cranked out of Tennessee, Florida etc every but a laser "could never be built in North America ever again."

WTF

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

How many approved builders of ILCAs does the ILCA really want?
1. 8 is the perfect number. We're going to roll with what we got.
2. It's costly to police 8 builders. We wouldn't mind at all if 2 or 3 ILCA builders dropped out in the next year.
3. We really want a lot more builders and are actively pursuing opportunities to identify more builders.

 

The market will determine the answers to all of these questions.  However, I personally agree that "8 is enough" at least for the moment and could possibly thin down.  Just have to wait and see....

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46 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

This is the headscratcher part. Thousands upon thousanfs of shitty (and I mean shitty) motorboats are cranked out of Tennessee, Florida etc every but a laser "could never be built in North America ever again."

WTF

For sure.  There's just a much bigger market for shitty stink potters because stink potting is easy.

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58 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

This is the headscratcher part. Thousands upon thousanfs of shitty (and I mean shitty) motorboats are cranked out of Tennessee, Florida etc every but a laser "could never be built in North America ever again."

WTF

So in NA we have Melges, Hobie, Fulcrum and what other dinghy manufacturers (that build at least 100 per year)?

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58 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

So in NA we have Melges, Hobie, Fulcrum and what other dinghy manufacturers (that build at least 100 per year)?

Do any of those builders have a class association who owns the trademark, who inspects the factories, and who can terminate the  builder if they fail inspections?

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25 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Do any of those builders have a class association who owns the trademark, who inspects the factories, and who can terminate the  builder if they fail inspections?

Are you saying ILCA does?

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I had to make a quick trip up the local dealer this morning. When I got there, they were unloading 3 of his original order of 10 Zim ILCAs. They look just fine. I was able to do a quick inspection of one, and the finish was very nice. All the fittings were in the right place (and direction), nicely finished hull/deck seam, bailer was mounted completely flush - all looked like it was supposed to with no cosmetic misses at all. If they were sold to someone at my club, performance observations to follow. 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Do any of those builders have a class association who owns the trademark, who inspects the factories, and who can terminate the  builder if they fail inspections?

I was just wondering how many dinghy builders there are in NA. Melges own their Melges trademark, and run the associations for the 14 and 15. Not sure if they will self inspect and self terminate. I believe the same comments would apply to Fulcrum. Not sure what you are getting at…

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17 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I was just wondering how many dinghy builders there are in NA. Melges own their Melges trademark, and run the associations for the 14 and 15. Not sure if they will self inspect and self terminate. I believe the same comments would apply to Fulcrum. Not sure what you are getting at…

I think he's getting at the point no one else currently has the tight QC controls the ILCA class does..;-) 

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38 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I think he's getting at the point no one else currently has the tight QC controls the ILCA class does..;-) 

You are a funny guy,

What I was getting at was that, if I were 40 years younger and crazy enough to want to be a boat builder, then I would aspire be a Dave Clark type of boat builder rather than a Farzad Rastegar type of boat builder.

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22 hours ago, Bill5 said:

So in NA we have Melges, Hobie, Fulcrum and what other dinghy manufacturers (that build at least 100 per year)?

We have 100 that build 5 a yesr

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I think he's getting at the point no one else currently has the tight QC controls the ILCA class does..;-) 

OMG that is so funny ans so wrong.

29 minutes ago, tillerman said:

You are a funny guy,

What I was getting at was that, if I were 40 years younger and crazy enough to want to be a boat builder, then I would aspire be a Dave Clark type of boat builder rather than a Farzad Rastegar type of boat builder.

What Dave has done with Fulcrum is amazing.  Hope it proves to be sustainable over the long term.

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On 6/21/2021 at 10:31 AM, Bill5 said:

So in NA we have Melges, Hobie, Fulcrum and what other dinghy manufacturers (that build at least 100 per year)?

Lund. Oh wait--tjey dont make sails

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49 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Hajaha! Thanks Firefly  Made my day! 

Screenshot_2021-06-22-13-13-42.png

I am a bit embarrassed to admit that half the reason I post here is simply to trigger him.  So easy and so fun.

And because Robbie and others owe me rum and I do love AND WANT my damn rum!!

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

I am a bit embarrassed to admit that half the reason I post here is simply to trigger him.  So easy and so fun.

And because Robbie and others owe me rum and I do love AND WANT my damn rum!!

It's hard to downvote builders just because we all really want people sailing regardless of what it is.  However, I would downvote anything Rasty is affiliated with, (not necessarily LP if Rasty didn't own them). 

Then again if you've had a bad experience with a builder I could understand a downvote.

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

It's hard to downvote builders just because we all really want people sailing regardless of what it is.  However, I would downvote anything Rasty is affiliated with, (not necessarily LP if Rasty didn't own them). 

Then again if you've had a bad experience with a builder I could understand a downvote.

Have you been drinking my rum?  How do you downvote a builder??  And I ain't downvoted anything?! 

I don't have anything against Rasty. Think he or whoever was running that business made some really stupid decisions and walked into an ILCA trap but from there he got what you get if you make stupid business decisions.  Got nothing against his boats though.  Just as good as any other Laser out there and never had an issue getting one.

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

Have you been drinking my rum?  How do you downvote a builder??  And I ain't downvoted anything?! 

I don't have anything against Rasty. Think he or whoever was running that business made some really stupid decisions and walked into an ILCA trap but from there he got what you get if you make stupid business decisions.  Got nothing against his boats though.  Just as good as any other Laser out there and never had an issue getting one.

You would never see Buddy Melges in an ILCA trap.

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The end of CL Boats is the end of dinghies being built in any significant quantities being built in Canada. At one time I thought the Stealth would become a competitor to the Laser. 

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2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

 

 

You would never see Buddy Melges in an ILCA trap.

Pretty sure he has sailed a LASER!  But doubt you would see him in either an ILCA trap... or ILCA crap!

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5 minutes ago, spankoka said:

The end of CL Boats is the end of dinghies being built in any significant being built in Canada. At one time I thought the Stealth would become a competitor to the Laser. 

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It was totally under the radar. 

https://www.sailingworld.com/sailboats/stealth-arrives-under-radar/

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25 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I love sailing singlehanded asymmetric spinnaker boats but they never seem to get much traction in the US.

They go too fast downwind. "Darn it. How am I ever going to catch that guy?"

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