ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

[Alan Crawford 602]

On 6/25/2021 at 1:21 PM, Admiral Hornblower said:

 Everyone's swearing, people sailing backwords, stuck in irons ect. Good times! long live the LP Laser!

 

 

Laser racing at it's finest (plus great breeze)! Thanks for reminding this thread about why we are all here!

[Admiral Hornblower 458]

38 minutes ago, Alan Crawford said:

Looks like your mast step repair was well done!

thanks! it held up great! If it was going to break it would have broken on that day!

I placed 12 out of 40, in case you were wondering, a result I'm pleased with considering the quality of the competition, and sailing the oldest boat there by about 30 years!

https://theclubspot.com/regatta/4GoI2RvVgs/results

I would have made the top ten, but for 2 unfortunate capsizes right in front of the finish line...sigh

[Wess 3,033]

35 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

thanks! it held up great! If it was going to break it would have broken on that day!

I placed 12 out of 40, in case you were wondering, a result I'm pleased with considering the quality of the competition, and sailing the oldest boat there by about 30 years!

https://theclubspot.com/regatta/4GoI2RvVgs/results

I would have made the top ten, but for 2 unfortunate capsizes right in front of the finish line...sigh

Nice!  Glad you had a good time!!

 

[Bill5 2,111]

2 hours ago, Wess said:

You folks sound like the Germans in the 1930's.  Heil ILCA!!  Its all great!!!

Comparing ILCA to Hitler? Very dramatic. Good God, man. Desperate response.
Do you see how your generic supplier panacea may do the exact opposite of what you want? 

[Wess 3,033]

So sad.  No. Neither the generic parts or the sails did anything of the sort.  They were in fact a huge boon to club level sailing. Try to stick to reality.

[Bill5 2,111]

4 hours ago, Wess said:

So sad.  No. Neither the generic parts or the sails did anything of the sort.  They were in fact a huge boon to club level sailing. Try to stick to reality.

But they weren’t legal, so none of the elite paid attention. In your open market scenario with generics being fully legal, you don’t think this would be exploited? You don’t think Quantum (eg) would build a sail for a world champ and market the shit out of it? If The elite thought Quantum’s were faster, do you not think they would pay a couple hundred bucks extra? That, my friend, would be a reality. And the lemmings would follow. Oh - and where are the generic sails coming from now? 

[Bill5 2,111]

Oh - and the generic sails and foils are not as good. Reality.

[Wess 3,033]

I hope you had a good time last weekend but my God you are... a lemming.

You love your bought and owned ILCA leaders. I think they and their policies suck.

Is that it is.

And still the majority don't and never will join ILCA because their leaders are a bunch of money sucking control freaks IMHO.

[Bill5 2,111]

You think they suck? Gee. News bulletin. But, as usual, you didn’t answer the questions. 
Had fun - great group, but this massive high pressure system in Western Canada delivered a drifter. 

[Wess 3,033]

Just now, Bill5 said:

You think they suck? Gee. News bulletin. But, as usual, you didn’t answer the questions. 
Had fun - great group, but this massive high pressure system in Western Canada delivered a drifter. 

That sucks as bad as ILCA.  Sorry to hear it.  We disagree on the rest so why bother.  Its all been answered 20 time.

[Bill5 2,111]

58 minutes ago, Wess said:

That sucks as bad as ILCA.  Sorry to hear it.  We disagree on the rest so why bother.  Its all been answered 20 time.

Were you a good dodgeball player in grade school?

[Wess 3,033]

I had more fun sailing.

[Jkdubz808 464]

Aside from the legal banter, I have some questions that may have been answered, but this thread is 112 pages long FFS....

Are older boats (2010-2016 lets say) hulls still legal for ILCA sanctioned events?  Getting a second-hand boat and putting an ILCA sail on it is my thoughts on this question.  I'm assuming yes but I just want to make sure.

 

So much has changed since I raced on the junior sailing Laser circuit many years ago, but am contemplating getting back into a Laser since the fleets around me are awesome.  I enjoyed my years racing Lasers more than I did the Finns to be honest, but with all the legal changes I just want to make sure I have my head wrapped around what I can or can't do with a second-hand older boat.  Mostly club level stuff but eventually would love to do some events like midwinters, Masters regatta (now that I qualify agewise) once I get my dinghy sailing groove back.

[JMP 186]

1 hour ago, Jkdubz808 said:

Aside from the legal banter, I have some questions that may have been answered, but this thread is 112 pages long FFS....

Are older boats (2010-2016 lets say) hulls still legal for ILCA sanctioned events?  Getting a second-hand boat and putting an ILCA sail on it is my thoughts on this question.  I'm assuming yes but I just want to make sure.

 

Yep, anything pre mid 217,xxx is will be class legal, there's likely a small amount of crossover where LP continued their sail number sequence with their non-international class or world sailing approved hulls where they created their own "The Laser Class" stickers.

Anything 2016 or older will be International Class legal so to speak.  You can still use the old starburst logo sails if you want, no need to buy an ILCA logo sail unless you're after something new and crisp.  A bit more of a rundown is here: Verification of Class Legal Equipment For Use in Laser Class Competition (eurilca.org)

[Bored Stiff 102]

1 hour ago, Jkdubz808 said:

Aside from the legal banter, I have some questions that may have been answered, but this thread is 112 pages long FFS....

Are older boats (2010-2016 lets say) hulls still legal for ILCA sanctioned events?  Getting a second-hand boat and putting an ILCA sail on it is my thoughts on this question.  I'm assuming yes but I just want to make sure.

 

So much has changed since I raced on the junior sailing Laser circuit many years ago, but am contemplating getting back into a Laser since the fleets around me are awesome.  I enjoyed my years racing Lasers more than I did the Finns to be honest, but with all the legal changes I just want to make sure I have my head wrapped around what I can or can't do with a second-hand older boat.  Mostly club level stuff but eventually would love to do some events like midwinters, Masters regatta (now that I qualify agewise) once I get my dinghy sailing groove back.

Yes, any hull with a WS/ISAF/IYRU plaque on it is class legal.  That includes all LP hulls of any age, provided they have the plaque - this could include brand new unused boats built a couple of years back but still in stock.  Ditto any sail with a button, which includes starburst sails more than a couple of years old and all new ILCA sails.  

[Bill5 2,111]

6 hours ago, Jkdubz808 said:

Aside from the legal banter, I have some questions that may have been answered, but this thread is 112 pages long FFS....

Are older boats (2010-2016 lets say) hulls still legal for ILCA sanctioned events?  Getting a second-hand boat and putting an ILCA sail on it is my thoughts on this question.  I'm assuming yes but I just want to make sure.

 

So much has changed since I raced on the junior sailing Laser circuit many years ago, but am contemplating getting back into a Laser since the fleets around me are awesome.  I enjoyed my years racing Lasers more than I did the Finns to be honest, but with all the legal changes I just want to make sure I have my head wrapped around what I can or can't do with a second-hand older boat.  Mostly club level stuff but eventually would love to do some events like midwinters, Masters regatta (now that I qualify agewise) once I get my dinghy sailing groove back.

At this stage, I doubt you could find a non-class legal hull in Florida. LP’s latest “unstickered” hulls have yet to arrive in the US, at least in any quantity.

Our fleet is made up probably 50% of sailors like you - masters back in the game. You will love it. 

[Bill5 2,111]

Oh - and don’t let the 112 pages fool you. It is 75% repetitive. Very little quality information.

[Alan Crawford 602]

28 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Oh - and don’t let the 112 pages fool you. It is 75% repetitive. Very little quality information.

+100. This thread, however, will survive (along with cock roaches) after any potential nuclear holocaust.

[tillerman 2,285]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Oh - and don’t let the 112 pages fool you. It is 75% repetitive. Very little quality information.

Right. Just ignore all the posts from these four clowns.

[Bill5 2,111]

1 hour ago, Alan Crawford said:

+100. This thread, however, will survive (along with cock roaches) after any potential nuclear holocaust.

Nothing can kill it! Other than Wess coming to his senses…

[Bill5 2,111]

42 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Right. Just ignore all the posts from these four clowns.

Where’s Bruce? He may not have had the quantity, but the quality is certainly bad.

[RobbieB 1,549]

3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

At this stage, I doubt you could find a non-class legal hull in Florida. LP’s latest “unstickered” hulls have yet to arrive in the US, at least in any quantity.

Our fleet is made up probably 50% of sailors like you - masters back in the game. You will love it. 

Hard to tell but if you believe The Sailing Inc posts out of their Cleveland facility there may be a tiny pocket developing there, (unless the posts are just repetitive).  Like I said, hard to tell.

[RobbieB 1,549]

58 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Right. Just ignore all the posts from these four clowns.

Woo Hoo!  I'm a top annoyer!

[Bill5 2,111]

1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Hard to tell but if you believe The Sailing Inc posts out of their Cleveland facility there may be a tiny pocket developing there, (unless the posts are just repetitive).  Like I said, hard to tell.

Here is what I got:

[Wess 3,033]

Annoying posts that annoy Firefly! 

Oh and that ILCA leadership sucks!!

[Jkdubz808 464]

9 hours ago, Bill5 said:

At this stage, I doubt you could find a non-class legal hull in Florida. LP’s latest “unstickered” hulls have yet to arrive in the US, at least in any quantity.

Our fleet is made up probably 50% of sailors like you - masters back in the game. You will love it. 

Thats the hope.  I will still need to shed off a few more lbs as I am more Finn weight than Laser (6'3" 22X lbs...trying to get below 220 is hard...) but it sounds like at this point the sailing is more second hand to the social side of it, which I am totally ok with.

[Bill5 2,111]

2 hours ago, Jkdubz808 said:

Thats the hope.  I will still need to shed off a few more lbs as I am more Finn weight than Laser (6'3" 22X lbs...trying to get below 220 is hard...) but it sounds like at this point the sailing is more second hand to the social side of it, which I am totally ok with.

I was 215 when I had my best result ever at a breezy nationals. And a bigger guy snagged third!

[Bruce Hudson 523]

3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

It took a few days to acquire sufficient give a shit to respond to the above quoted nonsense.

The CONSTITUTION  states the location of the headquarters 

the CONSTITUTION  can be amended 

The WC has the power to MAKE BY LAWS moving the  headquarters 

no by law moving the headquarters has been made 

no amendment to the constitution moving the headquarters has been made 

 

The CONSTITUTION has been misprinted by the renegades ( whose desire to move the Class headquarters  certainly makes sense to me) when in fact it must be amended to change its wording. 
The WC can make By laws but it cannot willy  nilly  change the wording of  the Constitution.

The PROPER way to move the headquarters is to either make a by law or amend the Constitution. 
 

it is a simple matter. The method may be pedantic and annoying, but there absolutely is a correct way and it has not been done. 

1) I'm intrigued what your elected rep said when you raised the matter with him?

2) I assume you have been reading the minutes of the World Council and can confirm that due process has not been followed?

I don't have a copy of them, but Anday Roy does. Hey Andy, @aroy210677 care to comment? Was due process in your view followed?

2 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

objects:

the word Laser  is used twice snd the Constitution has not been amended to use ILCA 

The class name has not changed. You appear to not understand that no change to the class name was proposed, or changed - just the requirement to used the Laser trademark on the boat was amended - meaning any trademark can be used.

6 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Jurisdiction

The Constitution been amended to grant the Association authority over the ILCA . 

The constitution reads:

Quote   JURISDICTION 5. The Association has authority over all activities of the Laser Class throughout the world, and its powers shall be vested in and carried out by the World Council, Regional Executive Committees, District Associations and Fleets as provided in this Constitution and any By-Laws passed pursuant to the provisions hereof; all subject to and in accordance with the General Rules and By-Laws of the International Sailing Federation.   It is the same in 2001 as it is now. The name of the class has not changed, nobody has proposed changing the class. The ILCA said: "This is NOT a vote to change the name of the class. The class will continue to operate as always as the International Laser Class Association. This is only a vote to ensure that new builders can enter the market, and only if necessary, sell class-legal equipment under an alternate brand name." Gouv, the class name has not changed. 2 minutes ago, Gouvernail said: Advisory council  the trademark owners provision probably needs to be amended away  The provision currently reads as it did in 2001: Quote   ADVISORY COUNCIL 15. The President and Vice President of the World Council and two persons nominated by those builders who are also Trademark owners shall constitute the Advisory Council and shall assist and co-operate with the World Council in the carrying out of their responsibilities, and shall have the responsibilities as set forth in paragraph 17 hereof and the paragraph entitled “Amendments” of the Rules.     Agreed that there may need to be changes in the near future. Currently there are two builders that are Laser Trademark holders, and builders (PSA and PSJ). Both are on the WC.  Note that the World Council has already called for suggestions to make amendments to the constitution - and this looks like a good one to make. Though raising it on SA here like you have? You live in a fairly free society - so I guess it is your choice. My suggestion is that you raise it with your local ILCA rep.

---

I confess I have been a bit slack in recent months, and have yet to take a proper look at the ILCA Constitution - though has the ILCA World Council already has asked its membership (I got my request by email), it is time to look at the constitution.

---

So far, I have only heard from one person that due process had not been followed - and that is by you Gouv. You have gotten quite a few things wrong above, so I am not going to take your word - particularly since you have offered no evidence. On the other had, I do not have access to World Council meeting minutes to verify if a By Law was created or not and therefore if due process was followed.

Like others have already said, I'd be surprised given the recent history if due process was not followed.

One thing for sure is that there was no hijacking of the ILCA as you suggested above. Tracy, Andy, Takao, etc are renegades? Really? Ha! Good one Gouv.

[Bruce Hudson 523]

3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

By laws 

there is probably need for some or even many new by laws to cover the new builder supervision taken on by the association. 

Maybe, though for now they seem to be working OK with the existing ones - which incidentally is covered by the new agreements - and not the ILCA member's constitution.

[Bruce Hudson 523]

16 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I just noticed the clueless one has once again attempted to justify ignoring process.

A strawman attack. 

Quote

My patience fir suffering the fool has expired. 

I knew  I was wasting a few minutes posting a description of the exact processes which have been ignored. 

An allegation made by you Gouv without any evidence.

Quote

But I was bored… 

I am no longer willing to be gentle about calling out assholes  who seem determined justify the sloth.

Look!!  You stupid fuckwit . The insignia ILCA has been substituted as has the name ILCA in all sorts of uses. 

No, that is demonstrably false. A quick look at the ILCA constitution shows that ILCA has not been used in the constitution as you suggest.

Quote

The Constitution says you can’t do that shit!!! 

Agreed. And that's probably why it hasn't been done!

Quote

The Constitution has to be Amended to allow for such substitution or the substitution has no proper standing. 

No, the class name has not changed, you misunderstand the extent of the rule change. Again, the ILCA World Council were at pains to spell this out.

Consequently, the constitution has not changed, and it is really easy to see that it hasn't changed. Here is the link (again): http://www.laserinternational.org/rules-and-regulations/ilca-constitution/

Quote

 They may as well decide  port has right of way in our races. 
  Either the game is based upon defined rules or ANYBODY can make up any fucking rule he damn well pleases at any time.

You are way down a rabbit hole Gouv. The changes you seem to think have occurred, haven't!

Quote

You and your stupid fucking asshole defense of the indefensible is really annoying… 

More silly strawman attacks. Good one Gouv. You know that all they do is make me respond.

12 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Back to not giving a shit and sailing with  my ILCA rags on my Laser

too bad there is no longer a properly run official class Association

of course, we don’t seem to need one to enjoy playing with our friends.  

Your continued false narrative that the ILCA is not properly run is wearing thin. You have put forward false accusations, made claims that the constitution was changed when it wasn't, and have raised the possibility of due process not being followed without evidence.

That being said, it is here on SA, which most of the thousands of Laser Class sailors don't read, and enjoy sailing their Lasers branded Laser or ILCA oblivious to whatever you say.

[Xeon 379]

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

 

too bad there is no longer a properly run official class Association

 

Ahhh and at last the real reason why you spout the rubbish you do about the class. 

[Gouvernail 3,934]

. Who knew lawnmowers had triggers?? 

[RobbieB 1,549]

16 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Here is what I got:

Interesting. Guess they sold the initial 3 or 4 they and and then...well we all know how great LP is at delivering new boats, parts.  Guess nothing has changed there!

[Wess 3,033]

20 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Nothing can kill it! Other than Wess coming to his senses…

It is lemmings that are in the the minority in terms of Laser sailing. Even you can’t be that much of a liar or lawnmower. The vast majority do NOT join ILCA. So if you few lemmings that do love these money grubbing, pick pocketing, rule breaking, elitist humping, control freaks who keep wrecking the game would come to your senses, then ILCA would die and be replaced by a class organization that works for the masses! It would be like…. Wait for it…. Independence Day!! 
 

We could even have fireworks!!!

[fastyacht 2,596]

Fuck that was funny

[RobbieB 1,549]

21 minutes ago, Wess said:

 It would be like…. Wait for it…. Independence Day!! 
We could even have fireworks!!!

Or a massive group of aliens invade the planet and we're all saved by Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum.

[Metoxi 97]

1 hour ago, Wess said:

The vast majority do NOT join ILCA.

Here in the UK I joined the UKLA which is aligned with ILCA, joining The Laser Class seemed a bit pointless as they have no events organised to race in.

 

In Portugal The Laser Class have organised their 50th Anniversary event, starts tomorrow but no idea where in Portugal the 3 registered entrants will be sailing. 

https://www.thelaserclass.com/events/

[Wess 3,033]

So be a good little lemming and go join ILCA since you haven't yet. They will appreciate your money.

[Metoxi 97]

23 minutes ago, Wess said:

So be a good little lemming and go join ILCA since you haven't yet. They will appreciate your money.

I have joined the UK arm of ILCA, it's the UKLA. 

I'm a good lemming. 

[RobbieB 1,549]

1 hour ago, Metoxi said:

Here in the UK I joined the UKLA which is aligned with ILCA, joining The Laser Class seemed a bit pointless as they have no events organised to race in.

 

In Portugal The Laser Class have organised their 50th Anniversary event, starts tomorrow but no idea where in Portugal the 3 registered entrants will be sailing. 

https://www.thelaserclass.com/events/

Sounds right up Rasty's alley along with managing two car funeral....

[tillerman 2,285]

1 hour ago, Metoxi said:

In Portugal The Laser Class have organised their 50th Anniversary event, starts tomorrow but no idea where in Portugal the 3 registered entrants will be sailing. 

https://www.thelaserclass.com/events/

Damn. I forgot to register. Looks like fun. 
 

[Bill5 2,111]

3 hours ago, Wess said:

It is lemmings that are in the the minority in terms of Laser sailing. Even you can’t be that much of a liar or lawnmower. The vast majority do NOT join ILCA. So if you few lemmings that do love these money grubbing, pick pocketing, rule breaking, elitist humping, control freaks who keep wrecking the game would come to your senses, then ILCA would die and be replaced by a class organization that works for the masses! It would be like…. Wait for it…. Independence Day!! 
 

We could even have fireworks!!!

Tell us what I t would all look like after “Independence Day”. Aside from people being able to race in ILCA events with cheaper gear. 

[Bill5 2,111]

And while you are at it, why do you think LP didn’t introduce your suggested gear free-for-all? They had - and still have - the opportunity to do so. Oh and nice name calling, by the way.

[Wess 3,033]

I didn't realize that lemming whines so much but then I met Bill.  Should have known him being Canadian and all.

@RobbieB, oh @RobbieB.  Summerville; 550 miles and 9 hours.  Two LPEs are showing up. You can thank me for buying them and the US Government for shipping them to your neck of the woods.  And they come with Laser lovin money saving peeps.

So... where is the best BBQ dive for a redneck like me.  And best high end seafood cause the wife loves when I have to wear my blue blazer and dress shoes.  We a com'n...  ready or not. Plaques or not. 

[Bill5 2,111]

Wesmissed! Oh the agony. I haven’t had a Wessmissal in a while. A non answer - usually a couple weak insults - then a complete subject change. Awesome. 

[Wess 3,033]

@Bill5 -

 

[Bill5 2,111]

Best bbq? It’s just west od Summerville, but Gouv will meet you.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=summerville+south+carolina+to+kreuz+market+lockhart&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-ca&client=safari#tduds=!1m6!1m2!1s0x88fef4c413e7e34b:0x122792328064d4f!2ssummerville south carolina!2m2!1d-80.17564809999999!2d33.0185039!1m6!1m2!1s0x8643565f56c7b905:0xc7f201a704b1c1f8!2skreuz market lockhart!2m2!1d-97.6718176!2d29.8899357!2m0!3e0

[tillerman 2,285]

27 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Wesmissed! Oh the agony. I haven’t had a Wessmissal in a while. A non answer - usually a couple weak insults - then a complete subject change. Awesome. 

More than awesome. He's gone nuclear.

[Xeon 379]

13 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Are you another one of those who couldn’t give a flying fuck about the rules which define out game or simply too stupid to comprehend my support for the  game does not include toleration for renegades making up their own rules. 
 

 

No, i care a  lot about people/organisations/governments following their own rules.

The difference is, I cannot  see any decision made by the ILCA that does not follow its own rules . Nor can anyone else other than you . 
 

Which means you are very very special or you are just wrong . I know  which one I think it is . 

[Wess 3,033]

2 hours ago, tillerman said:

More than awesome. He's gone nuclear.

Not he. She. But nobody except maybe 2 folks on SA will get this. Kinda surprised you did unless it’s an unintended but highly accurate pun. Perhaps your son is still the Secretary of State and had access to NSA files! Though he got fired though!?!

[tillerman 2,285]

3 hours ago, Wess said:

Not he. She. But nobody except maybe 2 folks on SA will get this. Kinda surprised you did unless it’s an unintended but highly accurate pun. Perhaps your son is still the Secretary of State and had access to NSA files! Though he got fired though!?!

Pun intended. You left enough breadcrumbs in your posts in the last few weeks for me to figure out why you are going to Summerville. 

[Bruce Hudson 523]

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

It amazes me how ignorant folks like to accuse well informed folks of everything but bring well informed.

Find a Class Handbook printed before 2000. Read the International Laser Class Constitution. 

Why before 2000? 

Earlier you said:
 

It is a bit sad that the only conclusion to reach is that you don't know what you are talking about.

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

my point has been and remains:

if the renegades can make up whatever ruies they choose, so can anyone else.

The onus is on you to provide proof on what increasingly seems to be a bullshit theory.

Stop talking in riddles and setting changing tasks. Is it 2000 or 2005? Was it the changes in 2001 that concern you? Or do you have solid evidence that another change is made? If yes then what is the change?

Or is it your intention promote yourself as an idiot (while calling others idiots). If yes, then job well done.

Since the changes in 2001, there has only been one change to the constitution: the head office address in 2016. It is noted at the top of the current constitution. See here:

 

So what changes are you droning on about?

You might have evidence of a change that you haven't shared, but that looks increasingly unlikely. It looks more likely that your credibility is dying, which is sad.

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

if the renegades can make up whatever ruies they choose, so can anyone else.

What a load of crap Gouv. (Rasty tried to get around the rules, even take over the game. Didn't get far.) Without anything to back up what you are saying, you are increasingly painting yourself into a corner. Exactly which members of the World Council are "renegades"? Or do you think it is all of them? 

I say there are no changes other than the ones noted.

You haven't provided any evidence of any other changes - none - nadda - zero - zilch.

And you call me an idiot? Sheesh.

[RobbieB 1,549]

18 hours ago, Wess said:

I didn't realize that lemming whines so much but then I met Bill.  Should have known him being Canadian and all.

@RobbieB, oh @RobbieB.  Summerville; 550 miles and 9 hours.  Two LPEs are showing up. You can thank me for buying them and the US Government for shipping them to your neck of the woods.  And they come with Laser lovin money saving peeps.

So... where is the best BBQ dive for a redneck like me.  And best high end seafood cause the wife loves when I have to wear my blue blazer and dress shoes.  We a com'n...  ready or not. Plaques or not. 

Rodney Scott's for the BBQ on King Street.

Seafood....man you can't swing a cat down here without hitting a decent option, but Amen Street has the best crab cakes I've ever had outside of MD.  Southern cakes have a tendency to be bready, but not at Amen.  

The Peninsula Grill is hands down my favorite high end dinner experience, (totally local on seafood and veggies)-  Your blue blazer will be great there. 

The Ordinary is good too.  If you're into oysters, (I'm old school and avoid them on months without an "R" in the spelling) but if I have to partake I go to the Rappahannock Oyster Company. 

[Bruce Hudson 523]

4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

riddles?? 
the Comdtitution must be amended in multiple ways to accommodate actions taken by the renegades. ( who have been doing things which I agree must be accomplished lushes)

The WC  DID NOT create a By Law to change the headquarters  address. But instead chose to illegally Willy nilly change the wording of the Constitution 

They also have decided to use the ILCA instead of Laser in multiple ways where Constitutional amendments are FIRST  required.

Aa a result, the Constitution has been abandoned are  the renegades are operating without any authorization.

 

They could have properly proposed the required changes at any time but as of today are still happily operating as renegades. 
 

One more time…

 

typing slowly so even a lawnmower could understand:

grab a 2007 copy of the handbook, take it to a grown up, ask the grownup to expect lain what it takes to move the main office to Austin, include the ILCA logo in our games, snd accomplish the various other pedantic changes necessary to operate 100% within our own clearly defined system of association governance. 
 

it really isn’t that hard 

please stop making your asinine apologetic posts fir the unacceptable behavior of the renegades ( whose fundamental goals I share). 

I confirm that you are unwilling or unable to specify that any changes have been made to the ILCA Constitution over and above the ones that they say they have.

You claim to share the ILCA World Council goals. Are these inane posts supposed to be supportive?

4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

The WC  DID NOT create a By Law to change the headquarters  address. But instead chose to illegally Willy nilly change the wording of the Constitution 

"Willy nilly"? Your bullshit approach to this really sucks Gouv. 

Basically, I can't be bothered checking up on your hair-brained theory that a by-law was not created to change the address. (And even if it wasn't, I'm not sure I really care. The World Council could address this at their next meeting - in the unlikely event that they made a mistake by not following due process. And be under no illusion, the only reason that the current WC wouldn't have followed due process would have been a lapse, a minor error. I'd be surprised if they are not exhausted from dealing with idiots over the last decade or so.)

I further confirm that you have abandoned your other vicious attacks to a small group of hard working volunteers who you call 'renegades' and 'friends'.

You know, by saying that the WC 'absconded with the funds' the ILCA, and 'started operating without authorization'. You should know better than to make false accusations. You have been unwilling or unable to provide any evidence - and there is evidence that your allegations are false. I'm a financial member of the ILCA, and am happy with the conduct of the World Council. Your language is anything but friendly. 

4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

They also have decided to use the ILCA instead of Laser in multiple ways where Constitutional amendments are FIRST  required.

Where? How?

By referring to the Laser as the 'ILCA Dinghy' in news reports? They could refer to it as 'Fred's bollocks' - there is nothing in the ILCA Constitution that prevents them from doing that. (Because you haven't specified, we are left guessing. It's like a riddle Gouv.)

You're right Gouv, it isn't hard - though following your twisted prose which supports you posting pictures of lawnmowers is. 

Gouv, you are being an idiot.

[Xeon 379]

17 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

It amazes me how ignorant folks like to accuse well informed folks of everything but bring well informed.

Find a Class Handbook printed before 2000. Read the International Laser Class Constitution. 
 

In fact, find an educated adult whose first language is English and who does not sail or give a rats ass about whether Rastegar exists. 

Ask if the Constitution can be amended by any other method than the one described in the Constitution 

 

…. the answer is, “Of course but can.”

It is a club’s document. The club can do anything  it damn well pleases.

because:

nobody gives a shit 

 

my point has been and remains:

if the renegades can make up whatever ruies they choose, so can anyone else.

if Wess is hosting a regatta and decides to allow trollinG motors, his regatta will be just as much a Laser regatta as the other ILCA events 

Games are defined by their rules… 

… except  the ILCA game , which has no published constitution or rules….

 

 

 

 

 

Why does it have to be a 20 year old version of the constitution ?.  The only thing that counts with any change is does it follow its own rules at the time of the change . 
You might not like the series of rule changes that have happened since 2000, but each rule change since that date have happened within the rules at the time they changed . 
Its not a difficult concept to understand, but you do seem to have a big problem understanding it . 

[Gouvernail 3,934]

9 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I confirm 

You're right Gouv, 

Thanks!!

 

[Bruce Hudson 523]

3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

The current use  of ILCA  requires multiple constitutional amendments and EVERY place Laser appears in the Rules and bylaws has to Be rewritten and properly approved to allow use of ILCA.

What a hair-brained narrative.

The class is still the same as it was.

THE CLASS NAME IS STILL THE SAME.

ONLY THE REQUIREMENT TO USE LASER BRANDING ON THE BOAT HAS BEEN REMOVED.

There might be changes in the future - but the ILCA "requires" constitutional changes to facilitate current actions? You are talking nonsense. You haven't provided and example of the use which requires a constitutional change - probably because you can't.

So we are left with the riddle of a muddle that is your narrative Gouv.

3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Until they do their proper jobs, they will remain renegades and anyone is free to properly interpret any class  rule any way he / she sees fit. 

Why don't you try that out at the next contest you compete in?

[Xeon 379]

5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

No!! You are once again showing your ignorance. 
I chose 2000 just as any old year. Use 1995 Use 2005. Use 1980. Use 2007

The address of the Class headquarters  was not changed using a by law and was improperly changed without properly amending the constitution

 

The current use  of ILCA  requires multiple constitutional amendments and EVERY place Laser appears in the Rules and bylaws has to Be rewritten and properly approved to allow use of ILCA.

Until those modifications have been properly made, use of the ILCA  is without proper approval 

 

Once again… I am in full support of those who wish to make the changes. I shall not quietly accept the lack of proper procedure.

 

As the renegades continue to operate without proper procedure they are making a mockery of all of our rules and making it impossible  to claim ANY of the rules of the game has proper standing. 
 

To right their wrongs, all the renegades need to do is present the few dozen necessary housekeeping amendments, rules adjustments, and bylaw changes. 
The rubber stamp voting process will breeze through.

Until they do their proper jobs, they will remain renegades and anyone is free to properly interpret any class  rule any way he / she sees fit. 
 

 

 

 

 

Utter tosh. Your narrative makes no sense . You are just tilting at windmills .
 

You are just being a very silly lawnmower  and I will try to not comment on subject again. 

[Gouvernail 3,934]

Dearest @Xeon and @Bruce Hudson

Does the Constitution say:

the Logo shall be the laser, the letters ILCA, or any subsequent logo approved by well meaning Class officers

 

Does the Constitution say anything like?? 

the word Laser in this document, the rules, and the By Laws shall be interpreted to include any toy that is approved for use by the WC and shall not include identical toys built by anyone not currently specifically authorized by the WC on the day those toys were finished to supply toys for our games??

*******
Of course we all know the answer. 
The Constitution has not yet been amended to describe and authorize the current operation of the Association.

The solution is very simple. The new verbiage can be written and approved at any time by following the very clearly described methods spelled out in the Constitution. 
 

Why do Hudson and Xeon continue to write endless posts suggesting the wording of the  Constitution is  irrelevant?? 
 

Why do they suggest UNWRITTEN rules actually supersede our Constitution??

The fact one of us or a group of us Don't much like the rules does not make it OK to ignore them. 
 

There is a process for changing our Constitution and rules and until such time as the process has been completed anyone operating outside those rules (as 54 of us did at the 2021 Easter Laser Regatta) is acting as a renegade. 
 

I will shut up about this when the Constitution has been properly Amended and all other official Class verbiage has been properly changed. 
 

Not!!>>[by the way, there is a bunch of stuff in the Constitution and rules we ignore because we don’t like it but you are supposed to abide by all the rules we do like and a few we haven’t yet written because we expect you to know what it is we mean]
 

I fully realize it is bothersome to be restricted by the Constitution and rules when the Constitution and rules have not been amended to allow action  which seem to be so very very important to those taking those actions. 

I would like to use a much larger sail in light winds because I am much bigger than most competitors and I know the game would be much more fair and fun if we could each use a sail sized to make each of us sail at more similar speeds… 

Some of our lighter sailors could sail more competitively if they had weights they could slide back snd forth on a crosswise mounted track. The game wouid be much more fair and competitive is some sailors simply added the contraptions to their boats 

But the stupid shortsighted current rules do not allow us to play that much more fair and competitive game 

EXCEPT!!! 
 
Some renegades have opened the door to doing as we please “for the sake of the Game.”

If ANY of us may ignore the rules ANY of us may ignore the rules. 

 

[JimC 1,012]

You're not going to win this one mate. As I demonstrated when I did an analysis umpteen pages back the class rules and the constitution are very sloppily written as regards the branding. Every class I've been associated with has defined what needs to be on the sail very precisely. Laser class rules and constitution don't. "The emblem of the Class shall be the recognised Laser symbol,", a phrase with all the precision of of a sledgehammer knocking in a glazing sprig. Emblem, well that's nice. What's the emblem supposed to be used for? Doesn't say. Is it supposed to be on the sail? Doesn't say. Is it supposed to be on class publicity? Doesn't say. Recognised Laser symbol, capital L.: laser small l is a bit of electronic kit, Laser capital L in this context is the boat. So the emblem of the class shall be the symbol of the class. Nicely circular, but meaningless.

[Bill5 2,111]

Has anybody ever seen a constitution of any kind include an office address? And when is an address included as part of a name? When ILCA moved to Austin, should they have replaced the word “organisation” with “organization”? 
The Constitution says they are going to promote Laser sailing in all countries. I don’t think they have done so. Mali? What about 16. By Laws in the Constitution - there are 10 possibilities mentioned, yet I have never seen a single By Law published. There is only By Law 1 (class rules). Is there a file of secret  by law’s somewhere? Maybe right behind the secret fees file.

Does any of this really make a difference to the fun we have racing? 

 

[Gouvernail 3,934]

@JimC and @Bill5

is either of you contending you are incapable of grasping the simplicity of “just changing the wording to fit what we are doing” just say so. 
 

I contend the wording must be changed to reflect EXACTLY what we are doing.

I contend EVERYONE knows that.

I contend this resistance to simply doing the right thing is downright insane. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Hudson 523]

5 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

@JimC and @Bill5

is either of you contending you are incapable of grasping the simplicity of “just changing the wording to fit what we are doing” just say so. 
 

I contend the wording must be changed to reflect EXACTLY what we are doing.

I contend EVERYONE knows that.

I contend this resistance to simply doing the right thing is downright insane. 

Other than the address, what specific changes are you objecting to?

[Bruce Hudson 523]

20 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Don’t end your ignorant posts with a preposition.

we are sailing boats that are NOT Lasers. 
we voted to allow BUILDERS who do not have rights to build Lasers but we never have changed the verbiage to ACCEPT  the ILCA  or any other non-Laser 

 The  Constitution  has to be modified to describe EXACTLY what it is we intend to do.

That is how Constitutions work.

WTF is it with your asinine attempts to invent justification for the indefensible?

What moronic set of personal erraticisms is driving you?? 
 

The Constitution refers to the Laser. The Renegades have set up the ILCA as their new “not controlled by Rastegar” playtoy.

 

EXCEPT!!

We haven’t taken care of the singular fundamental first step of Amending the literature.

 

Why are you running resistance vs doing the simple and obvious right thing? 

You haven't answered the very basic question Gouv.

45 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Other than the address, what specific changes are you objecting to?

Just answer the question Gouv.

---

You appear ranting about an address change, and maybe something else, or maybe not. Answer the question and enlighten us, or confirm that there is nothing else.

You are putting forward that due process wasn't followed when the address on the constitution was changed, without any evidence that process wasn't followed I might add.

20 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

We haven’t taken care of the singular fundamental first step of Amending the literature.

We (members of the ILCA) changed (removed) the requirement to use the trademark on the Laser/Kirby Dinghy - nothing else.

We sail a boat which is still called the Laser. Increasingly, it is also being called the ILCA dinghy. I'm happy to call it "Fred's bollocks" - there is nothing in the constitution that stops me.

Submissions to change the constitution can be made by ILCA members via their regional rep.

Quote

Sometime very soon I shall be forced to place you on my ignore list. Dealing with your insanity is not a job for which I am paid. 

You can choose to put me on ignore, but I'll still read and respond to your posts.

[Gouvernail 3,934]

44 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Other than the address, what specific changes are you objecting to?

Don’t end your ignorant posts with a preposition.

we are sailing boats that are NOT Lasers. 
we voted to allow BUILDERS who do not have rights to build Lasers but we never have changed the verbiage to ACCEPT  the ILCA  or any other non-Laser 

 The  Constitution  has to be modified to describe EXACTLY what it is we intend to do.

That is how Constitutions work.

WTF is it with your asinine attempts to invent justification for the indefensible?

What moronic set of personal 

 

 

 

 

[Bill5 2,111]

2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@JimC and @Bill5

is either of you contending you are incapable of grasping the simplicity of “just changing the wording to fit what we are doing” just say so. 
 

I contend the wording must be changed to reflect EXACTLY what we are doing.

I contend EVERYONE knows that.

I contend this resistance to simply doing the right thing is downright insane. 
 

I contend the Constitution is not very well written in certain areas  and could/should have been amended years ago. Let’s see what comes from the requested suggestions. 

And I don’t understand your comment/question. 

[Gouvernail 3,934]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

I contend the Constitution is not very well written in certain areas  and could/should have been amended years ago. Let’s see what comes from the requested suggestions. 

And I don’t understand your comment/question. 

Briefly… if we want to be the ILCA and Laser class we need to adjust the words to accommodate our desires. 

[SimonN 716]

8 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Briefly… if we want to be the ILCA and Laser class we need to adjust the words to accommodate our desires. 

So let's see if I have this correct. Gouv feels the world has come to an end and/or the current class administration, is corrupt/evil/dictatorial/illegal because of he believes that some minor wording of the constitution needs changing. He's not worried about generic gear, non approved equipment, illegal builders, builders who have shafted the class, potential loss of Olympic and maybe even international status . All he wants is what he believes are the correct words in the constitution.

I am pleased to see he has his priorities right.

Nothing has changed. We have Gouv, Wess, Bruce and others arguing the same shit as ever, none of which has anything to do with the real issues of going sailing. Oh, I forgot, Gouv wants a time machine to go back to the halcyon days of the class while Wess wants the class to stop being a one design, which is one of its key strengths, and continues to freeload of the association because he wants all the benefits (which he refuses to acknowledge) while saying there is no benefit.

[JimC 1,012]

1 hour ago, SimonN said:

 All he wants is what he believes are the correct words in the constitution.

I am pleased to see he has his priorities right.

Well, he's not wrong to claim that constitutions should be accurate, and he's not wrong to suggest they should be updated where necessary. The CA must have a lot on its plate, but things ought to be tidied up *if needed*.

So what needs tidying up, if anything?

I'm surprised the office location is in the constitution, but maybe there's some legal thing I'm unaware of. In any case if I understand the constitution correctly the CA is allowed to unilaterally alter the constitution in certain respects by issuing by-laws that don't require a membership vote. The office location is one of those. So there appears to be nothing in any way incorrect about that.

Definitions of builder and so on have changed, but all that has been voted on as required, so that seems perfectly legitimate.

So now Class name/branding. The class continues to be the International Laser Class. It says so on the World sailing website. Its informative that LP LLC doesn't seem to have come legally gunning onto ILCA or World Sailing about that, so that implies they are on safe ground. There has been no change of class name. 

So finally branding/sail logos, and the sloppily worded article 2. If I were on the Class committee I think I'd have a note that it ought to be tidied up next time they have a vote, but because of the sloppy wording I submit its nearly meaningless. 

The most interesting part of the constitution and rules, to someone coming from a background in association led multi designer classes, is how little is in both of them. All the real meat, what logos should be on the sails, measurement, construction, really just about everything that classes I'm used to have in their rules, must be in the construction manual. And as we know that's a confidential document that the CA members don't get to see and have no influence on.  200,000 plus Lasers say that system works and suits the sailors. It appears to me that the only place where branding and sail logos are defined is in the construction manual, and so, again, nothing done wrong.

I suspect the supremacy of the confidential construction manual is the reason for the historic tendency of the ILCA towards mushroom management, as demonstrated in the original fundamental rule change vote, which I still regard as being one of the most dubious pieces of CA management I have ever come across. I thought it was appalling, but again, 200,000 plus Lasers, whilst classes I've been involved with have struggled to get to two percent of that total.

 

[Bill5 2,111]

9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Briefly… if we want to be the ILCA and Laser class we need to adjust the words to accommodate our desires. 

Sometimes you get the music before the lyrics.

However. Inasmuch as the original Constitution and Rules were written with absolutely no thought of Olympics, FRAND and a builder gone bad, it is no surprise there are some administrative issues within the documents. But I see nothing in what has/has yet to be amended that is material to the game itself. The tidy up will be nice - I will email and see if I find out how the changes are coming along. But the band plays on.

[JimC 1,012]

6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Why do you want ILCA boats to be allowed but only unofficially?? 

And this is where you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. ILCA branded boats are International Lasers. They comply with the International Laser Class rules. They have hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sail and battens manufactured by a World Sailing and International Laser Class Association (ILCA) approved builder in strict adherence to the boat design specification (known as the Construction Manual) which is registered with World Sailing. They display a unique World sailing plaque that has been purchased by the builder from the International Laser Class Association.

 

 

[tillerman 2,285]

11 minutes ago, JimC said:

And this is where you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. ILCA branded boats are International Lasers. They comply with the International Laser Class rules. They have hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sail and battens manufactured by a World Sailing and International Laser Class Association (ILCA) approved builder in strict adherence to the boat design specification (known as the Construction Manual) which is registered with World Sailing. They display a unique World sailing plaque that has been purchased by the builder from the International Laser Class Association.

 

 

So do we refer to the new boats from the builders approved by ILCA as ILCAs, International Lasers,  ILCA branded boats, ILCA Dinghies, Kirby Dinghies or Lasers? Or are all of the above correct? 

Are the builders allowed to use all of those names in referring to their products? 

Wouldn't if be a lot easier if everyone used the same name?

[Bill5 2,111]

8 minutes ago, tillerman said:

So do we refer to the new boats from the builders approved by ILCA as ILCAs, International Lasers,  ILCA branded boats, ILCA Dinghies, Kirby Dinghies or Lasers? Or are all of the above correct? 

Are the builders allowed to use all of those names in referring to their products? 

Wouldn't if be a lot easier if everyone used the same name?

Builders can’t use Laser. They decided to use ILCA so as not to get sued. Bad choice, but necessary. We all know how much Rastegar likes the court room. 

[torrid 449]

4 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Builders can’t use Laser. They decided to use ILCA so as not to get sued. Bad choice, but necessary. We all know how much Rastegar likes the court room. 

And yet he never seems to do well there.

[Bill5 2,111]

Tracy got back to me straight away and advised it is a work in progress and it is “…almost ready for final WC approval to go to a member vote”. However, he added they are extremely busy emerging from COVID and getting all their events going on, which is their priority. They are hopeful to have something ready by late summer. 

[JimC 1,012]

3 hours ago, tillerman said:

So do we refer to the new boats from the builders approved by ILCA as ILCAs, International Lasers,  ILCA branded boats, ILCA Dinghies, Kirby Dinghies or Lasers?

What's in a name? That which we call a rose,
By any other word would smell as sweet.