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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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13 hours ago, bill4 said:

Maybe he is just cranky because he placed 40th

He should have bought a PSA cheater boat. 

In the positive news category those may be about the only boats you can buy and race in the class. If you have lots of money. 

Has anyone seen ILCA leadership? Did they come out of their bunker yet? B)

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

He should have bought a PSA cheater boat. 

In the positive news category those may be about the only boats you can buy and race in the class. If you have lots of money. 

Has anyone seen ILCA leadership? Did they come out of their bunker yet? B)

I'm expecting, (mostly hoping) for a bit of insight in the next Laser Sailor.  Deadline for articles was 9/15.  So, we should be seeing them soon.  Sherri is sending me a box of them for our D12 annual meeting and mentioned there's information the members will be interested in seeing.....When I know you'll know and we can set that date for drinks, (whoever buys..). ;-)

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On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 7:19 AM, Wess said:

Geeze Bill; it ain't hard to find. If you canntt handle that may I suggest you switch fleets to the Aero?  :lol:

Naw - I am already sailing in a class dominated by old farts. And waaaaaaaaaay more of them! And you are implying there is actually a fleet of Aeros to join...

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Well alright, alright, alright.....The NA Laser Class just e-mailed a copy of the upcoming Laser Sailor magazine to all district secretaries.  I believe this is a first so +1.

Andy address a few nice updates in his Presidents letter +2

PSA has become a BIG advertiser and as of today you can buy a boat from them +3 or +4 and I'll take that Scotch Wess!

PSA will be providing apparently ALL charter boats as of now and of those it sounds like quite a few will be available for purchase after events.

Seriously, it's a little early to celebrate.  Let's see how easy it's going to be to get boats from AUS and how the parts/sail supply chain is going.  I still have my money on it's gonna be better than it was!

Andy also addresses the builder application/assignment plan in pretty good detail.  LPE can STILL play if they want, but it's clearly up to them.

While it's not a an all sweeping announcement it does shed a bit of light and lay out time tables for new builder on boarding.  

Want to ready the whole thing?  Join the class peeps!

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Well alright, alright, alright.....The NA Laser Class just e-mailed a copy of the upcoming Laser Sailor magazine to all district secretaries.  I believe this is a first so +1.

Andy address a few nice updates in his Presidents letter +2

PSA has become a BIG advertiser and as of today you can buy a boat from them +3 or +4 and I'll take that Scotch Wess!

PSA will be providing apparently ALL charter boats as of now and of those it sounds like quite a few will be available for purchase after events.

Seriously, it's a little early to celebrate.  Let's see how easy it's going to be to get boats from AUS and how the parts/sail supply chain is going.  I still have my money on it's gonna be better than it was!

Andy also addresses the builder application/assignment plan in pretty good detail.  LPE can STILL play if they want, but it's clearly up to them.

While it's not a an all sweeping announcement it does shed a bit of light and lay out time tables for new builder on boarding.  

Want to ready the whole thing?  Join the class peeps!

You soooo owe me rum!!

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ILCA announced yesterday that they are now accepting preliminary applications for new builders. The announcement includes information about how applications will be assessed and when new builders will be expected to commence production.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/09/27/ilca-now-accepting-new-builder-applications/?fbclid=IwAR0OEA4ktnvqsOridp45WnQQdYaVW_cavHWsxNTBxXakYIfUDHtgK-IJ_Mg

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25 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

So nearly two years before new builders start production.  Europe will be lost by then to the Aero and a resurgent OK.  Possibly North America too.  

North America is being supplied by PSA.

I can't see Europe being lost to the Aero, can anyone?

--- here's what ILCA said:

Quote

ILCA anticipates the first round to builder appointments will be complete by early 2020 and builders will be required to commence production no later than 12 months after the 2020 Olympics.

Are you sure with your two year prediction sosoomii?

"Early 2020" sounds a teensy weensy bit closer than two years.

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

North America is being supplied by PSA.

I can't see Europe being lost to the Aero, can anyone?

--- here's what ILCA said:

Are you sure with your two year prediction sosoomii?

"Early 2020" sounds a teensy weensy bit closer than two years.

12 months after the 2020 Olympics is not early 2020...

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- LPE can be appointed (though I think unlikely) and start spitting out boats “early 2020”.

- appointees must be in production by August 2021 at the latest, so let’s call that two years. So that is the time frame for the slowest appointee.  

- Gouv- what do you think the time frame is for an established builder to get up to speed? And a new one (notwithstanding your position)?

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Just one old experienced one design Dinghy builder’s reaction ::

As I read the seemingly endless list of requirements I repeatedly muttered “go fuck yourselves” and occasionally laughed out loud. 

Briefly and accurately describing my reaction:

I want no part of it......


Fun image for you:

imagine a few guys from the ILCA standing in front and pitching this business to the Shark Tank  TV show panel  

I’m out

 

sharktank1_626x319.jpg

"You're dead to me."

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On 9/27/2019 at 2:31 PM, RobbieB said:

Well alright, alright, alright.....The NA Laser Class just e-mailed a copy of the upcoming Laser Sailor magazine to all district secretaries.  I believe this is a first so +1.

Andy address a few nice updates in his Presidents letter +2

PSA has become a BIG advertiser and as of today you can buy a boat from them +3 or +4 and I'll take that Scotch Wess!

PSA will be providing apparently ALL charter boats as of now and of those it sounds like quite a few will be available for purchase after events.

Seriously, it's a little early to celebrate.  Let's see how easy it's going to be to get boats from AUS and how the parts/sail supply chain is going.  I still have my money on it's gonna be better than it was!

Andy also addresses the builder application/assignment plan in pretty good detail.  LPE can STILL play if they want, but it's clearly up to them.

While it's not a an all sweeping announcement it does shed a bit of light and lay out time tables for new builder on boarding.  

Want to ready the whole thing?  Join the class peeps!

No need to join the class.

Here is the newsletter... https://issuu.com/jbiehl/docs/lsrslr0919_proof1

And here's the PSA ad.

Screen_Shot_2019-09-28_at_6_26.16_PM.thumb.png.dc34de05e71b6f840e3449bd41edd3b8.png

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@Bruce Hudson Appointing builders in early 2020 is not the same as production starting. Builders will be required to commence production within 12 months of Tokyo 2020 - Q3 2021. 

Only a fool would wait two years to buy a Laser, especially given the risk of legal action causing delays to that.  Just move on and get something else - there are plenty of options.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, sosoomii said:

@Bruce Hudson Appointing builders in early 2020 is not the same as production starting. Builders will be required to commence production within 12 months of Tokyo 2020 - Q3 2021. 

Only a fool would wait two years to buy a Laser, especially given the risk of legal action causing delays to that.  Just move on and get something else - there are plenty of options.

Yawn. Two years? Yeah nah.

6 hours ago, bill4 said:

appointees must be in production by August 2021 at the latest, so let’s call that two years. So that is the time frame for the slowest appointee.  

Bill is 100% correct.

Quote

ILCA anticipates the first round to builder appointments will be complete by early 2020 and builders will be required to commence production no later than 12 months after the 2020 Olympics.

Part of the final approval process is confirming that the boats are produced correctly. So sosoomii, actually appointing the builder is the same as starting production. 

7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

How long from “start of production” to supplies arriving at local dealerships?

About as long as the freight companies take to deliver.

Focusing on the worst scenario are we?

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Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

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20 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

I think the net result of staying in the Oylmpics is one or two builders will stay viable, and the ILCA will be able to continue to hold championships with builder-supplied boats (including youth and masters).

For grass roots level sailing, they Olympics is not much of a consideration.  It will continue its general decline, but used boats and fake parts will keep it going regardless of Olympic/builder/class shenanigans.

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5 hours ago, bill4 said:

Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

I don't think the Laser would have lost a huge percentage of its sailors in either scenario. The Laser is going to continue to be very popular at the grass roots level for many years to come.

Having said that, the Laser would probably be an even more healthy class if it had never gone anywhere near the Olympics.

The only winner out of this crazy Olympic selection process is the RS Aero. It has all the prestige of winning the trials but it doesn't have to deal with what you call "all the shit" that now goes with actually being an Olympic class. 

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9 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Around here, the problem with the AERO is pretty much the same as with the Laser. Nobody is selling any. 

Yhere will be no healthy singlehanded game around here until somebody starts pumping new toys into the sailing clubs. 

 

I think this is a red herring to a certain extent. Here in the uk the supply of new toys is fine , if I wanted I could have a new laser , aero , d zero , British moth , solo , comet, Lightning, streaker , musto skiff or any number of boats with weeks or at least a couple of months . That doesn’t mean the sailing in general though out the country is healthy because it is not , it’s a shrinking market with an aging demographic.

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The licensing, commercial interests and disputes are mostly independent to the decision to retain the Laser as an Olympic class. (In fact, they are reasons to not retain the Laser)

World Sailing is involved once they recognize a class as international.

The growth of the Laser is assisted by the class being Olympic, however is not entirely dependent on it.

It is complex and dynamic.

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20 hours ago, bill4 said:

Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

Why all the drama people?  Its not like you couldn't see this coming from miles away.  And Bill, only an idiot would think either of those are true.  Laser's strength is at grass roots and clubs.  I never understood before why why so few club level sailors joined ILCA.  Now I do.  But again its not a big deal and just doesn't matter.

What I hope is now that ILCA have kicked the door wide open that somebody - multiple somebodies - builds and sells generic Lasers.  Club level Laser; call them whatever you want.  Just like generic sails and generic parts.  Don't want or need a sticker for club level events.  Same boat only a lot cheaper and more durable. This is exactly what happened with sails and should happen with boats.  At least I hope it does. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

 And Bill, only an idiot would think either of those are true.  

Seems there were suggestions the Laser class was facing doom with the occurrence of one or the other. There certainly seemed to be support for suggestion 1) at the outset which was replaced by suggestion 2). I was just curious what people thought. You use the word "idiot" frequently, Wess. Just like this guy:

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What's the matter Bill?  Bad weekend?  See the price you have to pay for a new Laser LOL?

But to answer your question, more than anyone I think ILCA pushed #1 and the agenda that the sky would fall absent the Olympics.  I sure don't believe it but we will not know until after 2024 at the earliest.

On #2 you would have to say what you mean by lose?  Do you mean a.) lose from the class (ie not join or rejoin ILCA) or b.) lose from standpoint of not racing the boat.  If you mean lose from the class as in not rejoin... I doubt it.  Its anoter reason to not join but folks at the club level generally didn't join anyway.  And sure supply will be worse and boats will cost more but class members voted for it and I doubt most traveling Laser sailors (the type who do join ILCA) are all that price sensitive. If there are event boats they can buy all will be fine.  Non-event.  If you mean lose from racing at the club level I again doubt there is much impact.  Despite al the BS flung around about shortages the truth is there is little market for new Lasers, especially at the club level and so again the higher pricing will not matter.  It could actually be a positive at the club level if generic boats come to be in the same way as generic parts and sails.

I think for both your points the vote and subsequent changes were a non-event.  Now when the new rigs come home to roost that may well be another story.

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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

What's the matter Bill?  Bad weekend?  See the price you have to pay for a new Laser LOL?

But to answer your question, more than anyone I think ILCA pushed #1 and the agenda that the sky would fall absent the Olympics.  I sure don't believe it but we will not know until after 2024 at the earliest.

On #2 you would have to say what you mean by lose?  Do you mean a.) lose from the class (ie not join or rejoin ILCA) or b.) lose from standpoint of not racing the boat.  If you mean lose from the class as in not rejoin... I doubt it.  Its anoter reason to not join but folks at the club level generally didn't join anyway.  And sure supply will be worse and boats will cost more but class members voted for it and I doubt most traveling Laser sailors (the type who do join ILCA) are all that price sensitive. If there are event boats they can buy all will be fine.  Non-event.  If you mean lose from racing at the club level I again doubt there is much impact.  Despite al the BS flung around about shortages the truth is there is little market for new Lasers, especially at the club level and so again the higher pricing will not matter.  It could actually be a positive at the club level if generic boats come to be in the same way as generic parts and sails.

I think for both your points the vote and subsequent changes were a non-event.  Now when the new rigs come home to roost that may well be another story.

Bad weekend? Nope - unless you dislike 8" of snow on the ground... And my boat is in perfect condition (other than being covered by the aforementioned snow).

From a racing perspective, I think that the Laser is well insulated from decline by the massive - and growing - Masters program. Not only are the numbers of competitors greatest at this end of the line, but it is also the demographic that buys boats. So - the Olympics would not have had much impact on this one way or the other.

Concerning club boats and grassroots, I don't know. I tend to lean more to Gouv's thoughts that if boats are available, people will buy them. But speaking of Grass Roots, here is a beauty. For some reason, the video wouldn't copy directly...

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+grass+roots+let's+live+for+today+jimmy+durante+intro&qpvt=the+grass+roots+let's+live+for+today+jimmy+durante+intro&view=detail&mid=3D7AE0A5F649B43E38A93D7AE0A5F649B43E38A9&&FORM=VRDGAR

 
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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Why all the drama people?  Its not like you couldn't see this coming from miles away.  And Bill, only an idiot would think either of those are true.  Laser's strength is at grass roots and clubs.  I never understood before why why so few club level sailors joined ILCA.  Now I do.  But again its not a big deal and just doesn't matter.

What I hope is now that ILCA have kicked the door wide open that somebody - multiple somebodies - builds and sells generic Lasers.  Club level Laser; call them whatever you want.  Just like generic sails and generic parts.  Don't want or need a sticker for club level events.  Same boat only a lot cheaper and more durable. This is exactly what happened with sails and should happen with boats.  At least I hope it does. 

I join any class of boat I'm sailing/racing to support the boat and class from a support and development side.  I'm a member of US Sailing because I'm a competitive sailor.  Over the past few year I've disagreed with a lot of what, (or what doesn't) happen at US Sailing, but they are our national governing body.  Without support they'd be in trouble and ultimately that would be bad for the sport. 

Sorta like the last presidential election.  I didn't like either candidate, but I voted for one of them...

ILCA has gotten smart and realized the revenue to run a proper class is difficult to get from dues so they've raised the parts tariff.  

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23 hours ago, bill4 said:

Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

1. Would have lost sailors definitely.  Lots?  That would depend on the Laser class response, but globally a fair few.

2. Only if the cock it up by reducing supply, increasing cost, creating uncertainty and damaging the brand.  That wasn't inevitable but they are on a full house so far!

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I join any class of boat I'm sailing/racing to support the boat and class from a support and development side.  I'm a member of US Sailing because I'm a competitive sailor.  Over the past few year I've disagreed with a lot of what, (or what doesn't) happen at US Sailing, but they are our national governing body.  Without support they'd be in trouble and ultimately that would be bad for the sport. 

Sorta like the last presidential election.  I didn't like either candidate, but I voted for one of them...

ILCA has gotten smart and realized the revenue to run a proper class is difficult to get from dues so they've raised the parts tariff.  

Yea I had also been a member and argued that one should join to support the class. I only left when I stopped racing and went cruising with the Admiral.  But not just because it was the "right" thing to do - if you don't truly get value... if the class or USS or WS don't provide value people are not going to keep joining - but I honestly believe that last round the class was between a rock and hard place and did an amazing job to keep the supply of boats going while being sued (unfairly IMHO) by Kirby.  So I really felt my money was going towards something good. Now...?

Now I feel like (I am sure) ILCA purposely by design put itself in the middle (don't get me wrong; smart strategy and LPE fell for it stupid gits got what they deserved) and fought for this outcome and clearly don't give a sh*t about grass roots or club level sailing or even developed areas at all.   Its all about Olympics and all about Asia.  That I don't agree at all.  There were a few straws that broke this camel's back (hidden fees piled on people who ain't even racing the boat, the win at any cost mentality of ILCA leadership, etc...).  I agree your line about: "ILCA has gotten smart and realized the revenue to run a proper class is difficult to get from dues so they've raised the parts tariff."  The problem is however eventually people realize their pockets are being picked by somebody who don't care about them and at that stage its hard to convince folks to join. "They already screwed me and now you want me to pay them more to join?!"... I think is the fair reaction.  I still love the boat and local fleet. If I did race agin about the only thing I would change is to not rejoin ILCA. I honestly can't think of a single reason to join. 

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I like the outlook for sailmakers to the new "Laser Generic"  class better than the outlook for builders.

Boat building is a tough business. Volume does not equal profit unless there is a decent margin. There is no economic moat here.......no brand, no regional exclusivity, no value placed on a dealer network or customer service, no product differentiation.....this effectively becomes a commodity product sold on price......with a race to the bottom. 

Someone will start selling Laser Generics online. Dealers will go the same way as book stores and focus more on boats and classes where they can add value. Two global builders will survive and break even with a lower cost structure than their competitors. PSA will merge with LP .  The market will bottom with competition reduced.....and then "Gucci" versions will appear with  $2,000 "go-fast" extras.

Gradually the two surviving builders will return to profitability with tacit unspoken agreement of "areas of influence" where the dominant supplier will set pricing. Better margins will support better service and dealers will start to reappear. The brand name will get re-established.  The dealers and builders will have margins that enable them to start participating in promoting the class, the events and the brand again. Folks will start talking about the renaissance of the Laser Class.......then.......suddenly.......without warning.......World sailing will drop the Laser from the Olympics and select the Firefly once again as the single handed dinghy.  The two builders will appeal to WS Council. Ws responds by referring to the decades old 2020 agreement and terminate both builders.  Legal complaints will start flying, there will be no builder, and most importantly, .........Wess will reappear on these forums to claim his bottle of rum!

Please refer to page 145 of this thread for more details.

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Wess, your basic gripe is the ILCA does not provide any value to you as a local grass roots competitor, you don't value your voting rights on any of the international issues and management, and finally,  you disagree on principal with the class direction.   

Been there  and done that with the A class..... My question is...  What international class have you seen that does make a contribution to the local grass roots sailing scene.     I could not find a different model to point to.... In fact.... the best comment I got was from the 505 class  member/leadership who said... Yeah.... our guys don't pay their class dues until they want to go the Worlds.... Its just the way they are....  

From my perspective,  those sailors who want to go to worlds should pay the whole cost for the event ....   no need to tax me at the local level for their fun.

So...  what COULD the ILCA and or  the NA class actually do for you as a local club sailor and secondly, do you know of another class that does a decent job of tending to the local scene?

My only idea beyond coordinating a sensible regional regatta schedule was to pay a small stipend to a sailor who would generate a regatta report and results and pics within a few days of an event for the  members only part of the class web site.     Nobody ever thinks this is a good idea tho.

What do you want from the ILCA?

 

 

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It can be argued that the most important thing a CA does for the grass roots of its class is to keep the class lively and second hand values up. I've observed that if a CA is ineffectual or collapses the value of the boats nosedives in very short order, as does demand for them, new or secondhand.

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58 minutes ago, JimC said:

It can be argued that the most important thing a CA does for the grass roots of its class is to keep the class lively and second hand values up. I've observed that if a CA is ineffectual or collapses the value of the boats nosedives in very short order, as does demand for them, new or secondhand.

Well that sets up the obvious free rider problem.  But,  Let me challenge that argument.

Anybody ever estimate the imputed value that a national or international racing class offers....  I question how a top down mechanism can work.    It seems to me.... that the actual value machinery for the class is the bottom up actual local racing scene. ... its not like you can fold the boat up and put it on a plane to your next international event.   even selling your small boat has a limit as to how far you will drive to get rid of it. So, Boat value is about supply and demand..... the supply (usually is the easy part.... but see Laser) is easy.... the demand for race boats is driven by the demand for local racing.     I don't think the national scene is irrelevant... just not the driver that gets me to join the class assn or does all that much for my boat value.

 I can see two possible mechanism for  a national class assn to create value.   First It could add actual value when the sailors competing nationally  also anchor your local  or regional competitive season by competing there as well  You create the experience of belonging to a larger world.   . So this is a bit of chicken and egg. situation.....   The second alternative is that you have  a national class where a handful of events move around the country and finish with a winter circuit  in Florida (eg A class).... In this case... the grass roots are defined upwards  as those sailors competing throughout the country.  (then again.... the similarities between A class and a one design are night and day)  Usually, these national classes like the CC 30 one design last a few years and then fall apart. 

So I am open to an actual mechanism for the value add by the national class association and any idea how they should help the local racing scene in their countries.  

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

I heard it was taken over by a company who make ironing boards.

You raise a good point.

Cater to the market

Wouldnt you rather have one of these than a dated dinghy?

Dang I want one......if they had this when I left college, I probabaly never would have bought that first boat.

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16 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Wess, your basic gripe is the ILCA does not provide any value to you as a local grass roots competitor, you don't value your voting rights on any of the international issues and management, and finally,  you disagree on principal with the class direction.   

Been there  and done that with the A class..... My question is...  What international class have you seen that does make a contribution to the local grass roots sailing scene.     I could not find a different model to point to.... In fact.... the best comment I got was from the 505 class  member/leadership who said... Yeah.... our guys don't pay their class dues until they want to go the Worlds.... Its just the way they are....  

From my perspective,  those sailors who want to go to worlds should pay the whole cost for the event ....   no need to tax me at the local level for their fun.

So...  what COULD the ILCA and or  the NA class actually do for you as a local club sailor and secondly, do you know of another class that does a decent job of tending to the local scene?

My only idea beyond coordinating a sensible regional regatta schedule was to pay a small stipend to a sailor who would generate a regatta report and results and pics within a few days of an event for the  members only part of the class web site.     Nobody ever thinks this is a good idea tho.

What do you want from the ILCA?

 

 

As a District Secretary I'll chime in on what a CA does for you, (or at least the ILCA does).  #1 First and foremost if you don't ask or participate it'll do absolutely nothing! (other than drop a quarterly magazine in your mailbox).  #2- IF you correspond with the class office they'll do just about any damned thing you ask!  Need money for awards?  Done.  Need money for a district mailer?  Done.  Need promotional items, (like a box of laser sailor mags to distribute at an event)? Done!  Need district data on where membership is trending?  Done! Need a list of what membership has done in the district over the last 5+ years? Done!  Need contact info for all active and non-active members?  Done!!!!  

It's really like anything else in life.  You get out of it what you put in.  We've worked hard in our district over the past few years and finally this year we've begun to see appreciable results in new members, boats selling pretty quickly to new sailors or existing members looking to upgrade hulls.  A big jump in Jr sailor participation and a nice bump in our masters group.  

You can choose to sit around a bitch about how it sucks and guess what?  It will suck.... I've bitched about boat and parts supply, but I've also become the area "boat finder" to help people get boats, (not new boats of course) and we waived the class parts rule so if you break something and the class legal part is unattainable you can get the non-legal part, (or- God help us all...the knock off new laser sail. oh the horror!).  

Through a very difficult time in class history we've actually managed to grow and the class office has supported us whenever we asked. Also, when I've reached out to Andy or Tracey through private e-mail they have always responded within a day or two.  

They are there folks and they do things, but if you like the "don't ask, don't tell" motto then carry on with the miserable speculations regarding the inevitable fall of the largest OD class on the planet.. 

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17 hours ago, IPLore said:

Wess will reappear on these forums to claim his bottle of rum!

 

I won fair and square and have tried to claim my rum NOW but the bums keep ducking.  Still a victory as those lemmings know in their heart I was right, LOL.

12 hours ago, IPLore said:

... than a dated dinghy?

 

ILCA's answer to that is to put a new and overpriced rig and sail onto it.  If you canntt force people to buy new boats so you can collect hidden fees then force them to put new rigs and sails into old boats!

But seriously that dated dinghy is loved by many.  It ain't the boat.  Its the fleets and great close racing. 

And besides, most of the lemmings sailing it are pretty damn dated themselves!!

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True, big spenders have already moved on to A-Class, Wasp, Moth, UFO, Musto Skiff, etc. Therefore the Laser will remain the "go to" singlehanded dinghy because all these new Lasers that are going to be built will actually be out on the race course with cheap second hand Lasers. 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

I won fair and square

what was the original bet? that prices would go up? it was so long ago i can't even remember the terms. i'm not so sure that you've won, more like you have yet to lose the bet.

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Geeze, doesn't anyone do their own research anymore? Basically higher prices and lower supply.  Given all the added fees and that boats now need to be shipped to EU and NA from  Australia the higher prices are obvious.  Heck PSA boats were already much more expensive (currency adjusted) than LPE boats in their own respective territories.  So you would have to come up with one heck of a whopper to say prices are lower.  Same for supply.  The lemmings claimed there was a huge supply issue in NA (not really so... there just ain't buyers... but its what they claimed).  Now Instead of mfg capacity for about 2500 boats/year they are down to about 500 boats per year and by their own press it will be at least a year from when they booted LPE before they even get a new builder (I have my doubt that they actually have anyone in NA or EU that can and will complete the process) approved and on-line, never mind up to the original mfg and sales # capacity before the termination. So given 500 is less than 2500; supply is less.  Good grief I even got our lightning stuck tri back in the water and the freezer stocked with ice.  I was so looking forward to Robbie and Tracy and all serving the wife and I drinks and pulling strings. 

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2 hours ago, spankoka said:

True, big spenders have already moved on to A-Class, Wasp, Moth, UFO, Musto Skiff, etc. Therefore the Laser will remain the "go to" singlehanded dinghy because all these new Lasers that are going to be built will actually be out on the race course with cheap second hand Lasers. 

I’m not sure it is the go to singlehander in the UK anymore. Maybe at the bargain basement level, but builders (and ILCA) don’t make money off these folk.  Maybe also at squad level.  But at competitive club level I’d say Aeros and Solos are where it’s at.

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The UK is an outlier here because dinghies matter in the UK-and that's a good thing! It's not necessarily the same in the rest of the world. It's Laser or nothing for me in terms of a singlehanded dinghy that has a local fleet. Even if I had a Bazzillion dollars, I think I would stick with my Laser fleet. If some of the well-financed people in my fleet buy  a brand newish ILCA from Australia,  or the Tokyo 2020 fleet, or wherever, that's a good thing.

 
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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I’m not sure it is the go to singlehander in the UK anymore. Maybe at the bargain basement level, but builders (and ILCA) don’t make money off these folk.  Maybe also at squad level.  But at competitive club level I’d say Aeros and Solos are where it’s at.

 

24 minutes ago, spankoka said:

The UK is an outlier here because dinghies matter in the UK-and that's a good thing! It's not necessarily the same in the rest of the world. It's Laser or nothing for me in terms of a singlehanded dinghy that has a local fleet. Even if I had a Bazzillion dollars, I think I would stick with my Laser fleet. If some of the well-financed people in my fleet buy  a brand new ILCA from Australia or wherever, that's a go

 

You people are making me feel very nostalgic for the Old Country.
 

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13 hours ago, RobbieB said:

As a District Secretary I'll chime in on what a CA does for you, (or at least the ILCA does).  #1 First and foremost if you don't ask or participate it'll do absolutely nothing! (other than drop a quarterly magazine in your mailbox).  #2- IF you correspond with the class office they'll do just about any damned thing you ask!  Need money for awards?  Done.  Need money for a district mailer?  Done.  Need promotional items, (like a box of laser sailor mags to distribute at an event)? Done!  Need district data on where membership is trending?  Done! Need a list of what membership has done in the district over the last 5+ years? Done!  Need contact info for all active and non-active members?  Done!!!!  

It's really like anything else in life.  You get out of it what you put in.  We've worked hard in our district over the past few years and finally this year we've begun to see appreciable results in new members, boats selling pretty quickly to new sailors or existing members looking to upgrade hulls.  A big jump in Jr sailor participation and a nice bump in our masters group.  

You can choose to sit around a bitch about how it sucks and guess what?  It will suck.... I've bitched about boat and parts supply, but I've also become the area "boat finder" to help people get boats, (not new boats of course) and we waived the class parts rule so if you break something and the class legal part is unattainable you can get the non-legal part, (or- God help us all...the knock off new laser sail. oh the horror!).  

Through a very difficult time in class history we've actually managed to grow and the class office has supported us whenever we asked. Also, when I've reached out to Andy or Tracey through private e-mail they have always responded within a day or two.  

They are there folks and they do things, but if you like the "don't ask, don't tell" motto then carry on with the miserable speculations regarding the inevitable fall of the largest OD class on the planet.. 

Yes it is unfortunate there are those that do not belong to the class and a few others who  continue to give misinformation, unsupported  speculation, nonsense, etc while claiming to have done so much for the class and sailing  when others like you are actually moving the class and sailing forward.  Unfortunately much of this nonsense is ego driven and I no longer bother reading their dribble. That said there is some good info on this site,

Thanks for your efforts

 

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On 10/1/2019 at 9:41 AM, Wess said:

I won fair and square and have tried to claim my rum NOW but the bums keep ducking.  Still a victory as those lemmings know in their heart I was right, LOL.

ILCA's answer to that is to put a new and overpriced rig and sail onto it.  If you canntt force people to buy new boats so you can collect hidden fees then force them to put new rigs and sails into old boats!

But seriously that dated dinghy is loved by many.  It ain't the boat.  Its the fleets and great close racing. 

And besides, most of the lemmings sailing it are pretty damn dated themselves!!

With respect, Wess, you are ducking the question that Tiller and I have posed.

With a changing demographic and increasing less leisure time...what do you think of Tiller's cogently and logically argued proposition regarding LPE?

If you had $2,500 of surplus disposable income, which would you rather buy; 

1. An all new Miele B3847

or

2. A used PSA ILCA 14 ?

and more importantly, why?

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39 minutes ago, IPLore said:

With respect, Wess, you are ducking the question that Tiller and I have posed.

With a changing demographic and increasing less leisure time...what do you think of Tiller's cogently and logically argued proposition regarding LPE?

If you had $2,500 of surplus disposable income, which would you rather buy; 

1. An all new Miele B3847

or

2. A used PSA ILCA 14 ?

and more importantly, why?

What question?  There is no question.  I would sail a Laser or whatever the self serving Olympic and Asia chasing idiots at ILCA decide to call it regardless of them picking my and everybody else's pocket. This is not hard and at risk of repeating myself... its not the boat... its the fleet.  Best local fleet and best WW fleet is Laser.  When its something else I would sail the something else if I was still racing.  But I think this is true for most.  It. Ain't. The. Boat.

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19 hours ago, VWAP said:

Yes it is unfortunate there are those that do not belong to the class and a few others who  continue to give misinformation, unsupported  speculation, nonsense, etc while claiming to have done so much for the class and sailing  when others like you are actually moving the class and sailing forward.  Unfortunately much of this nonsense is ego driven and I no longer bother reading their dribble. That said there is some good info on this site,

Thanks for your efforts

 

You sure like to throw stones at him but I am pretty sure Gouv has done more for Laser than you have.  And that's coming from somebody does not nearly agree everything Gouv says or thinks.  As for class membership I believe he is a member and active racer.  Why do you think so few club racers join ILCA?

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

 Why do you think so few club racers join ILCA?

I think it is because most District Secretaries aren't aware of or don't take advantage of:

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:41 AM, RobbieB said:

Need money for awards?  Done.  Need money for a district mailer?  Done.  Need promotional items, (like a box of laser sailor mags to distribute at an event)? Done!  Need district data on where membership is trending?  Done! Need a list of what membership has done in the district over the last 5+ years? Done!  Need contact info for all active and non-active members?  Done!!!!  

And as such, not many club racers know what ILCA will do. If they did, they would be more inclined to join.

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17 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I think it is because most District Secretaries aren't aware of or don't take advantage of:

And as such, not many club racers know what ILCA will do. If they did, they would be more inclined to join.

That's a double edged sword Bill.  The more a club sailor know the less they may want to join.

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

That's a double edged sword Bill.  The more a club sailor know the less they may want to join.

I don't follow. Robbie served up 6 things ILCA do to help in the regions. So do you think knowledge of these activities may actually dissuade non members from joining? 

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On 10/2/2019 at 3:45 AM, sosoomii said:

I’m not sure it is the go to singlehander in the UK anymore. Maybe at the bargain basement level, but builders (and ILCA) don’t make money off these folk.  Maybe also at squad level.  But at competitive club level I’d say Aeros and Solos are where it’s at.

There's more Lasers at national level (if you count the separate Masters nationals, which is of course logical) and vastly more Lasers involved in club racing under PY.  The PY report shows 27,764 reported Laser races, 9110 Radial races and 1911 Laser 4.7 races.  In contrast there were 4203 Aero 7 races, 365 Aero 5 races, and 2064 Aero 9 races. There were 18480 Solo races.  Sure, those numbers don't account for circuit and club OD racing but where is the proof that there are more Solos and Aeros at that level?

So in club PY racing and at the national level the Laser is at least as much "where its at" in terms of bums on boats, at least.

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On 10/2/2019 at 12:52 AM, spankoka said:

True, big spenders have already moved on to A-Class, Wasp, Moth, UFO, Musto Skiff, etc. Therefore the Laser will remain the "go to" singlehanded dinghy because all these new Lasers that are going to be built will actually be out on the race course with cheap second hand Lasers. 

Have they?  The A Class membership number hasn't really grown and may have fallen, depending on what earlier years you're comparing it with.  The same applies to the Moth, which isn't growing very much at all these days according to the class AGM reports. There have only been a couple of hundred UFOs sold, as far as I am aware, so it's not taking away the big spenders. The MPS is selling at a rate of about 20 boats per year; Moth sells about 80; Waszp is doing quite well at something like 200 a year or so; the As also doing well at about 150 but that's the same rate they were selling in the early 2000s.  I think you'll find that OKs, Bytes and other classes are selling fewer boats. So there seems to be little evidence of any trend by big spenders to move away from Lasers - they have always had alternatives to go for.

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

There's more Lasers at national level (if you count the separate Masters nationals, which is of course logical) and vastly more Lasers involved in club racing under PY.  The PY report shows 27,764 reported Laser races, 9110 Radial races and 1911 Laser 4.7 races.  In contrast there were 4203 Aero 7 races, 365 Aero 5 races, and 2064 Aero 9 races. There were 18480 Solo races.  Sure, those numbers don't account for circuit and club OD racing but where is the proof that there are more Solos and Aeros at that level?

So in club PY racing and at the national level the Laser is at least as much "where its at" in terms of bums on boats, at least.

Yeah, I know, and my club has probably the largest Laser fleet in the country.  But the momentum and vibe is with the other classes. 

Honestly, if you were to join a random UK club it is not a slam dunk you would chose to sail a Laser to get the best racing.  Solos are not so popular on exposed coastal waters, but almost all inland clubs have a fleet of some description, and the Aero offers that RS party scene and great after sales service so lacking from LP.  

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9 hours ago, Wess said:

You sure like to throw stones at him but I am pretty sure Gouv has done more for Laser than you have.  And that's coming from somebody does not nearly agree everything Gouv says or thinks.  As for class membership I believe he is a member and active racer.  Why do you think so few club racers join ILCA?

Wow you sure like to project. Could care less about the person you mentioned, I pretty much forgot about him as he has been on ignore for a long time.

 

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6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Wow!! Where did you find those stats?? I had no idea anybody even gathered such stats.  
currently I  am wondering how we, as a community, could  put those stats To work. 
Great stuff!!!

fyi: I can generate some numbers for Texas in my little brain. Laser and Sunfish  Wednesday night races in Austin and  Dallas wouid be huge. 
but... the great news??

high school and collegiate start numbers would also be huge 

and our very largest fleets are Opti Green, Blue and Red. Junior radial and club 420 starts probably beat out any other one design except Laser, Sunfish, and Optis. 
I think we have a future. I think sailing will boom when the current juniors are in their thirties. 

 

Our club’s junior sailing program has been booming for 20 years. The percentage of junior sailors who are still sailing when they are 30 is depressing. I get a better yield on my checking account 

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4 hours ago, VWAP said:

Wow you sure like to project. Could care less about the person you mentioned, I pretty much forgot about him as he has been on ignore for a long time.

 

And you sure like to lemming. If you don’t like it don’t read it. Ignorance doesn't change the facts though.

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8 hours ago, bill4 said:

I don't follow. Robbie served up 6 things ILCA do to help in the regions. So do you think knowledge of these activities may actually dissuade non members from joining? 

Go back and read Robbie’s full post.it also includes reasons why folks could decide not to join. And no I don’t find the points mentioned to be compelling reasons to join an organization that picks my pocket.

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

What question?  There is no question.  I would sail a Laser or whatever the self serving Olympic and Asia chasing idiots at ILCA decide to call it regardless of them picking my and everybody else's pocket. This is not hard and at risk of repeating myself... its not the boat... its the fleet.  Best local fleet and best WW fleet is Laser.  When its something else I would sail the something else if I was still racing.  But I think this is true for most.  It. Ain't. The. Boat.

IPL,  That is hysterical! 

I think it was the line about demographics that was like a lure flashing past Wess 

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18 minutes ago, Wess said:

Go back and read Robbie’s full post.it also includes reasons why folks could decide not to join. And no I don’t find the points mentioned to be compelling reasons to join an organization that picks my pocket.

I get it.  No means no and that's fine. I'm not trying to change any minds, (which I believe has been proven impossible to do on the internet) but if someone is a "maybe" then they should not be ignorant to what the possibilities are.

Sure it's not perfect.  What is? Are there politics?  Where are there not?   

It can be aggravating to be a district secretary or any other volunteer position in any organization, but it can also be hugely rewarding.

Again, IMO you get out of it what you put into it.  Unfortunately for some like the Gov the politics can be crippling, but fortunately for him it has not killed his passion for the sport and the boat.  This can happen in anything and I think the big key to remember, (when you're involved at the volunteer level) is not everyone is going to be happy.  Do the best you can.  If the fun starts to fade step aside because life is too short.  Just keep sailing.

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52 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I get it.  No means no and that's fine. I'm not trying to change any minds, (which I believe has been proven impossible to do on the internet) but if someone is a "maybe" then they should not be ignorant to what the possibilities are.

Sure it's not perfect.  What is? Are there politics?  Where are there not?   

It can be aggravating to be a district secretary or any other volunteer position in any organization, but it can also be hugely rewarding.

Again, IMO you get out of it what you put into it.  Unfortunately for some like the Gov the politics can be crippling, but fortunately for him it has not killed his passion for the sport and the boat.  This can happen in anything and I think the big key to remember, (when you're involved at the volunteer level) is not everyone is going to be happy.  Do the best you can.  If the fun starts to fade step aside because life is too short.  Just keep sailing.

That's fair.  Agree.

And its best to change minds with rum LOL.

Coming to the Naps show?  Our big boat is going to be used for demos. 

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32 minutes ago, Wess said:

That's fair.  Agree.

And its best to change minds with rum LOL.

Coming to the Naps show?  Our big boat is going to be used for demos. 

Aw man!  I'd love to head up that way for a weekend of smelling new fiberglass and booze inspired dreams.  However, we're headed to the old homestead to attend a Clemson FB game....

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Had to laugh at this:

https://www.finnclass.org/news/20-news/1062-the-return-of-the-finn

The Finn class has not given up yet.  Who knows with LPE gone and no new builders for Laser or whatever the heck it is, may the Finn has a chance!!

They never give up!  

I don't know why we don't stop all this nonsense with Lasers and Finns, and bring back the Firefly as the singlehanded dinghy. If it was good enough for Elvstrom, it should be good enough for everyone.

12_Elvstrom1948_300.jpg

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The Laser is an Olympic class boat.  At my size and physical condition I can easily sail and race a Laser.  I may not be competitive, but that is mostly lack of skill.  No one would look at me and mistake me for an Olympic athlete.

If you even want to consider sailing a Finn, you have to have skill AND be an athlete.  To me, that is more appropriate for an Olympic class.

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

They never give up!  

I don't know why we don't stop all this nonsense with Lasers and Finns, and bring back the Firefly as the singlehanded dinghy. If it was good enough for Elvstrom, it should be good enough for everyone.

I think we're limiting our scope too much. I think we should (re)consider the 12 foot dinghy. It was the first to receive international designation, and an olympic boat in 1920 and 1928

Image result for international 12 foot dinghy

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3 hours ago, dgmckim said:

I think we're limiting our scope too much.

 

Or each country could build their own boat

 

2015%20Puddle%20Duck%20postcard_Final_fr

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