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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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2 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

......waiting for someone to tell west coast to stop wringing his hangs and go sail. Anyone?? This is all like such a non issue..... much to do about nothing..... Right???

So you are saying that lemmings should be ostriches LOL?

PS - WCS is no osterich... great dealer.  My go to since my prior go to went to clothing :-(

 

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Hey- TLF is offering two free years of membership to nothing.  I can't wait for my recruitment call.

Still better that the sacks of shit that are picking non members pockets! #FundyourselfILCA

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19 minutes ago, Wess said:

Still better that the sacks of shit that are picking non members pockets! #FundyourselfILCA

Funny thing is this political situation has apparently had people in such a twist they've actually stopped sailing!?!  According to Heine "They want to get back to sailing Lasers".  I haven't had more fun sailing ILCA/Lasers in great fleets that I have in the last year and a half.

BTW-what makes you think Heini's proposed LPE monopoly will be any different?  Free membership to an imaginary class association is one way to start I guess....

Sure Europe is sucking it on supply now and they can finally see what NA had to deal with for years.  Sucks doesn't it Heini boy!

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22 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Free membership to an imaginary class association is one way to start I guess....

Sure Europe is sucking it on supply now and they can finally see what NA had to deal with for years.  Sucks doesn't it Heini boy!

As opposed to the imaginary ILCAs available from the seven builders...

Great American attitude right there. Jeez. 

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4 hours ago, WestCoast said:

Again, perhaps due to lack of communication and information - but it would appear the the ILCA is sufficiently different from the Laser to give pause to treating them the same. We want more information from ILCA to make the case why businesses like ours should sell their boats and products. 

could you unpack this statement a little? in what ways is it sufficiently different?

and, is LPE still on its way back to being a licensed manufacturer or have they decided to go their own way?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Still better that the sacks of shit that are picking non members pockets! #FundyourselfILCA

Wess- they are offering nothing.  At this point it's just an idea being proposed by a group of self imposed and self titled representatives.  There's no vote, no details, nada.  Also. this "membership" is "free" for only 2 years.  Talk about a leap of faith....No thanks.  

Th irony on their statement is not lost on me.  It's a 180 degree of what happened with ILCA.  Going to 1 European based builder and ousting the other for no reason what so ever and there is no vote happening on this.  It's a group of "concerned" sailors just heading off in a direction.

What makes you think this would be at all better than what's happening now?  How, (given the complete lack of details) could you even make that assessment?

 

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54 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Wess- they are offering nothing.  At this point it's just an idea being proposed by a group of self imposed and self titled representatives.  There's no vote, no details, nada.  Also. this "membership" is "free" for only 2 years.  Talk about a leap of faith....No thanks.  

Th irony on their statement is not lost on me.  It's a 180 degree of what happened with ILCA.  Going to 1 European based builder and ousting the other for no reason what so ever and there is no vote happening on this.  It's a group of "concerned" sailors just heading off in a direction.

What makes you think this would be at all better than what's happening now?  How, (given the complete lack of details) could you even make that assessment?

 

Hey hey now don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say it would work. I actually don't think it will. But...

1.) I told you it was coming and this ain’t all.

2.) I hope it succeeds (even while I think it won’t) because the people running ILCA deserve to have their crap crash at their feet (it won’t). Like I said and sorry the sock puppets canntt deal with it but ILCA leadership are directly responsible for this fracture more than any other group. 

The part you and others just don’t get is that people can love the boat and the local fleet and still think ILCA leadership sucks and can go pond salt. Like you, I have a right - especially since they pick my and others pockets - to an opinion about what the ILCA leadership has done. 

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I'm wondering if LP LLc will be selling Lasers at two price points, one without the subsidy to the new LP CA, and one with. After all, wouldn't anything else be picking the pocket of the sailors?

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On 2/27/2020 at 1:50 PM, winchfodder said:

Didn't I read somewhere in all these laser threads that the top sailors bought PSA boats because they were stiffer and faster?

Yes, a few years back, LPE had a 'bad batch'. Not so much with the ice blue boats. The 'current' thinking (at least while LPE was still building) was that the PSA are built to a slightly higher standard and seem to last longer. There are issues with the occasional LPE leaking around the centercase - though as said before, if there is a difference in boat speed, then I'm not aware of it, nor are the people I have spoken to (and I've spoken to quite a few - including several in the top 20).

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On 2/26/2020 at 7:50 PM, winchfodder said:

Didn't I read somewhere in all these laser threads that the top sailors bought PSA boats because they were stiffer and faster?

Yes, a few years back, someone somewhere in these threads said that PSA had been caught building boats with extra stiffening and another time someone somewhere else in these threads said that PSA were building boats with different mast rakes and you could choose what mask rake you wanted. Current thinking by someone somewhere is that ILCAs are probably faster than Lasers but someone somewhere else said that world championships these days are sailed in 100% charter boats so it doesn't really matter for the only people who really matter. If there is a difference in boat speed, I'm not aware of it nor are the people I have spoken to (and I've spoken to quite a few - including several I met in the bar after frostbiting last Saturday some of whom actually used to sail something sometime somewhere.)

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On 2/27/2020 at 2:57 PM, tillerman said:

 It's likely that the author knows less about the new builder approval process than IPLore's lawnmower.

That is self evident. Our favorite lawnmower knows everything!

But I have never claimed that he is "my" lawnmower.

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23 hours ago, WestCoast said:

 @RobbieB Thank for the order!   It's support like yours that lets us keep fighting to make sure everyday sailors have access to what they need to enjoy their time on the water.

For battens - yes we've been out of battens for a month or two now, have a couple hundred on order, hopefully soon.

I am thousands of miles away.......but if I buy a boat .....and West Coast Sailing stock that boat.....then I'm buying said boat from WCS. Its that simple. Here we have a vendor who cares about the sport and is passionate about his customers.  In this confusing market place, it is reassuring to know that there is someone who wants to ensure that we get the experience we are looking for and then negotiates to get a fair deal for the customer alongside a reasonable return that keeps food on the table for his employees.

Can someone please clone George.   I've read that almost anything is possible nowadays.

 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Yes, a few years back, someone somewhere in these threads said that PSA had been caught building boats with extra stiffening and another time someone somewhere else in these threads said that PSA were building boats with different mast rakes and you could choose what mask rake you wanted. Current thinking by someone somewhere is that ILCAs are probably faster than Lasers but someone somewhere else said that world championships these days are sailed in 100% charter boats so it doesn't really matter for the only people who really matter. If there is a difference in boat speed, I'm not aware of it nor are the people I have spoken to (and I've spoken to quite a few - including several I met in the bar after frostbiting last Saturday some of whom actually used to sail something sometime somewhere.)

Wondering why ICLA have favoured a builder for all supplied events that seems to have been proven for cheating. 

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34 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Wondering why ICLA have favoured a builder for all supplied events that seems to have been proven for cheating. 

You have to dance with the one that brought you...

 

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10 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Yes, a few years back, LPE had a 'bad batch'. Not so much with the ice blue boats. The 'current' thinking (at least while LPE was still building) was that the PSA are built to a slightly higher standard and seem to last longer. There are issues with the occasional LPE leaking around the centercase - though as said before, if there is a difference in boat speed, then I'm not aware of it, nor are the people I have spoken to (and I've spoken to quite a few - including several in the top 20).

Can you cite specific occurrences or are you repeating unsubstantiated rumors while  representing them as fact ?

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After reading the description on the TLC link, they are clearly not not talking about the class that we know.

" TLC is dedicated to the strict One Design Laser and maintaining low-cost accessibility to Laser sailing with regular supply and competitive prices of boats and parts"

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so with the world sailing approved ICLA's being the selected boats for Paris 2024, it will be interesting to see how flexible "TLC" is with allowing the current World-Sailing spec boats to compete in their events.  PSA have a history of working with the class association pushing forwards to address weak points in the boat and make them more durable, eg, the Carbon top section, MKII sail, Carbon radial bottom section and now new foils with more durable trailing edges.  I do wonder if the upcoming youth and ladies in Europe would want to continue bending LP alloy radial bottom sections, or go with the new carbon sections that will be used in the 2024 Olympics and International Class approved nationals, worlds etc

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31 minutes ago, JMP said:

so with the world sailing approved ICLA's being the selected boats for Paris 2024, it will be interesting to see how flexible "TLC" is with allowing the current World-Sailing spec boats to compete in their events.  PSA have a history of pushing forwards to address weak points in the boat and make them more durable, eg, the Carbon top section, MKII sail, Carbon radial bottom section and now new foils with more durable trailing edges.  I do wonder if the upcoming youth and ladies in Europe would want to continue bending LP alloy radial bottom sections, or go with the new carbon sections that will be used in the 2024 Olympics and International Class approved nationals, worlds etc

I am sure Olympic hopefuls all over the world will want to use the equipment that will be in Paris 2024. If that is PSA's souped-up ILCAs than that is what the elite will buy.

But what about the vast majority of "grass-roots" sailors? Maybe they will prefer the lower cost Laser Kool-Aid and nostalgia for the Laser brand offered by LP and The Laser Class?  The sailors' revolution against the current ILCA regime seems to be a purely European effort for now - but we are told that's where 70% of the class members are. As for North America, @WestCoast seems torn about whether to sell ILCAs or Lasers but is going with Lasers for now.

We live in interesting times.

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1 hour ago, Eddie_E said:

After reading the description on the TLC link, they are clearly not not talking about the class that we know.

" TLC is dedicated to the strict One Design Laser and maintaining low-cost accessibility to Laser sailing with regular supply and competitive prices of boats and parts"

Depends which continent we are on. For whatever reason, LP essentially abandoned the American market years ago but the Europeans seem to be have been generally happy with LPE.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

560625712_ScreenShot2020-02-29at3_55_50PM.thumb.png.7d6313625f1b63e7cd4e85bc8773b6d6.png

So presumably, LPE will unload the balance of their ILCA stickered boats and then sell only the Laser Class boats for a couple grand less - i.e. the "Club" boat price. Or will that price creep up? Tillerman - you are a member - why don't you ask? You could probably become the NA Secretary if you asked nicely.

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2 minutes ago, bill4 said:

So presumably, LPE will unload the balance of their ILCA stickered boats and then sell only the Laser Class boats for a couple grand less - i.e. the "Club" boat price. Or will that price creep up? Tillerman - you are a member - why don't you ask? You could probably become the NA Secretary if you asked nicely.

LP were pushing for a class association of paid professionals, wonder what they're offering ;)

Beat and Heini have always been in their pocket so no guessing who will be first cab off the rank for the next 8 years

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I saw a lonely ILCA in the background of one of the many videos posted today from the RS Sailing stand at the Dinghy Show. 

Has anybody been to the show and talked to the folk on the ILCA and Laser stands? What were they saying about their plans?

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Currently we have two groups of individuals who would like to prove to the world that they can run the Laser  Class or ILaserCA class Sailing Association better than anyone else on the planet. 
My hope is each group will do not only all those things that we expect from a fabulous sailing Class Association, but things much more clever and supportive of our great game  than most of us ever have imagined. 
just think how the game could benefit from two dedicated supportive promotional and organizational entities. 
    Let’s all join both associations and help each one to make our game the best it can be!!

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

....
    Let’s all join both associations and help each one to make our game the best it can be!!

 

 

 

 

Well the new one is for free so why not!

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On 2/28/2020 at 12:57 PM, tillerman said:

Can we change the title of this thread to "LPE gives ILCA the boot"?

LOL, well done.  Definately got a smile and a laugh.  But no.  ILCA kicked first so they get the headline.  But you could always start another thread about LPE booting ILCA LOL.  Rumor has it DA needs more Laser threads!!

13 hours ago, tillerman said:

Depends which continent we are on. For whatever reason, LP essentially abandoned the American market years ago but the Europeans seem to be have been generally happy with LPE.

Being serious for a moment.  How do you abandon a market that doesn't exist?  That story line really is a fairy-tail to some (large I gather) extent.  I was told (by you I think?) that I canntt buy a new class (guess we need to specify now LOL... you and I mean ILCA class) legal LPE Laser.  But yet I could and it was easy to find them from multiple sources.  And here is an equally interesting kicker... Robbie noted that a truck load of PSA ILCA class legal ILCA boats were for sale down in Miami.  You would think this under-served high demand American market you refer to would be all over them right?  But yet... no.  Not so much.  Not even a little.  Not busting your balls here but their is something I think you should consider as the truth to counter that fairy-tail...  there is no significant ILCA market here in America anymore for whatever reason.  Hasn't been for some time and it shows no sign of coming back.  A few boats get sold to the elite either directly or through the charter/regatta route but as for a larger marketplace as we usually think of it...  it doesn't seem to exist for this boat in this place anymore.  The Aero market is far larger and more diverse for lack of a better term.  More grass roots if you will.

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20 hours ago, IPLore said:

I am thousands of miles away.......but if I buy a boat .....and West Coast Sailing stock that boat.....then I'm buying said boat from WCS. Its that simple. Here we have a vendor who cares about the sport and is passionate about his customers.  In this confusing market place, it is reassuring to know that there is someone who wants to ensure that we get the experience we are looking for and then negotiates to get a fair deal for the customer alongside a reasonable return that keeps food on the table for his employees.

Can someone please clone George.   I've read that almost anything is possible nowadays.

 

WORD. 

+1

There is something everyone can agree on!

Time to sail.  Bye bye!

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18 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL, well done.  Definately got a smile and a laugh.  But no.  ILCA kicked first so they get the headline.  But you could always start another thread about LPE booting ILCA LOL.  Rumor has it DA needs more Laser threads!!

Being serious for a moment.  How do you abandon a market that doesn't exist?  That story line really is a fairy-tail to some (large I gather) extent.  I was told (by you I think?) that I canntt buy a new class (guess we need to specify now LOL... you and I mean ILCA class) legal LPE Laser.  But yet I could and it was easy to find them from multiple sources.  And here is an equally interesting kicker... Robbie noted that a truck load of PSA ILCA class legal ILCA boats were for sale down in Miami.  You would think this under-served high demand American market you refer to would be all over them right?  But yet... no.  Not so much.  Not even a little.  Not busting your balls here but their is something I think you should consider as the truth to counter that fairy-tail...  there is no significant ILCA market here in America anymore for whatever reason.  Hasn't been for some time and it shows no sign of coming back.  A few boats get sold to the elite either directly or through the charter/regatta route but as for a larger marketplace as we usually think of it...  it doesn't seem to exist for this boat in this place anymore.  The Aero market is far larger and more diverse for lack of a better term.  More grass roots if you will.

I stand corrected (again.) It's just that I have heard so much whining online about LP's terrible support for the North American market in the last few years that I had begun to believe that there are thousands of people in North America who are just yearning to get their hands on new Lasers if they could. Plus I have not been racing Lasers myself for the last 4 or 5 years so I have not had much opportunity to observe the behavior of actual Laser sailors in the wild.



 

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21 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Can you cite specific occurrences or are you repeating unsubstantiated rumors while  representing them as fact ?

I have previously cited specific occurrences, based on my own experiences (I've sailed both PSA and LPE boats) and sailed in fleets where there are both. Additionally,  there was the recent contest in Kingston where there were new LPE and PSA boats, where there was no differences detected by those who were there (I wasn't, but spoke to several who were).

What I said above is that there are no performance differences. Are you suggesting that is an unsubstantiated rumor I am repeating?

What's fascinating is that I am reacting to those who imply that there are differences, which is an unsubstantiated rumor.

If there are specific performance differences, then they have not been reported.

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I went to the Dinghy Show today.  All I can say is that regardless of rights and wrongs, what an absolute mess.  Having spoken to Laser Performance and Sailboats (agent for ILCA and previously major Laser retailer) and others involved, no one came out of it well and I wouldn’t buy either offering until there is waaay more clarity than they were able to give.

Essentially they didn’t say anything not already discussed here, but both sides were openly blaming each other.  As there is now a genuine choice between small class with big builder or big class with small builder, and neither will let the other play, the best choice is clearly to keep a pre 2020 Laser as it can play in either game.  So really no incentive whatsoever to buy new. 

Interestingly both sides said the other was not constructing boats as they should be, which was the reason given for neither allowing the other to play.  The LP man also questioned which boat had been selected for the Olympics.  As it was an ILCA submission to the event panel I assumed it was the ILCA offering that had been selected. 

The ARC rig was also on display, the Bethwaite C rigs were not.  sailboats said they only suppply class legal kit, so don’t intent to supply the C rigs (at least unless they get adopted by ILCA).

2A336E65-29C1-4F44-BEF4-C6666FC231DF.jpeg

05FB8EF0-C350-4328-B7BA-66AEF252DC45.jpeg

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14 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I went to the Dinghy Show today.  All I can say is that regardless of rights and wrongs, what an absolute mess.  Having spoken to Laser Performance and Sailboats (agent for ILCA and previously major Laser retailer) and others involved, no one came out of it well and I wouldn’t buy either offering until there is waaay more clarity than they were able to give.

Essentially they didn’t say anything not already discussed here, but both sides were openly blaming each other.  As there is now a genuine choice between small class with big builder or big class with small builder, and neither will let the other play, the best choice is clearly to keep a pre 2020 Laser as it can play in either game.  So really no incentive whatsoever to buy new. 

Thanks for this! What was the price differential between the two “fully loaded” boats?

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9 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Thanks for this! What was the price differential between the two “fully loaded” boats?

I don’t know directly.  Sailboats said they hadn’t put the price up from when they sold LP Lasers (ie they were covering the cost of importing from Oz) and an ARC rigged LP Laser could be had (show price?) for £4940.

A quick look on the sailboats website indicates a special offer for a Harken XD fit of £6200 (normally £7450!).  On the Laser Performance site an XD rig Laser is £5995.  

I suspect this bit of kit below costs more than most club Lasers...

 

9224E175-2931-4834-AAB7-7EF627DA8206.jpeg

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31 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I went to the Dinghy Show today.  All I can say is that regardless of rights and wrongs, what an absolute mess.  Having spoken to Laser Performance and Sailboats (agent for ILCA and previously major Laser retailer) and others involved, no one came out of it well and I wouldn’t buy either offering until there is waaay more clarity than they were able to give.

Essentially they didn’t say anything not already discussed here, but both sides were openly blaming each other.  As there is now a genuine choice between small class with big builder or big class with small builder, and neither will let the other play, the best choice is clearly to keep a pre 2020 Laser as it can play in either game.  So really no incentive whatsoever to buy new. 

Interestingly both sides said the other was not constructing boats as they should be, which was the reason given for neither allowing the other to play.  

This is madness.

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On 2/29/2020 at 11:39 AM, winchfodder said:

Wondering why ICLA have favoured a builder for all supplied events that seems to have been proven for cheating. 

They thought anything was better than LaserPerformance.... and while LP sucked horrible... now the new master is PSA and they own the class.

All potential ILCA builders will have to pay royalties to PSA/Global Sailing (technically not the same company, but, controlled by the same people).

 


Good intentions or not, ILCA sold out to PSA - and they call the shots and do what they want now. Customers be damned.

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7 hours ago, tillerman said:

so I have not had much opportunity to observe the behavior of actual Laser sailors in the wild.



 

LOL well you canntt any more in North America.  They suddenly went extinct.  Some new non-native invasive species called the ILCA came in and displaced them all.  You have to go to Asia to have any potential to see them racing in nature but even there they are rumored to be extinct and replaced by ILCAs. 

I tell you those ILCAs are like that snakehead fish thing...

And dude... they will suck your wallet dry if you even look at them from across the harbor. 

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL well you canntt any more in North America.  They suddenly went extinct.  Some new non-native invasive species called the ILCA came in and displaced them all.  You have to go to Asia to have any potential to see them racing in nature but even there they are rumored to be extinct and replaced by ILCAs. 

I tell you those ILCAs are like that snakehead fish thing...

And dude... they will suck your wallet dry if you even look at them from across the harbor. 

Really?

Anyway, I have been hoarding an original Vanguard Laser in my garage for years. I have just joined The Laser Class. One day "soon" I am going to start sailing my Laser again. Watch this space.  Will I be the only living Laser sailor in New York?
 

 

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6 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I have previously cited specific occurrences, based on my own experiences (I've sailed both PSA and LPE boats) and sailed in fleets where there are both. Additionally,  there was the recent contest in Kingston where there were new LPE and PSA boats, where there was no differences detected by those who were there (I wasn't, but spoke to several who were).

What I said above is that there are no performance differences. Are you suggesting that is an unsubstantiated rumor I am repeating?

What's fascinating is that I am reacting to those who imply that there are differences, which is an unsubstantiated rumor.

If there are specific performance differences, then they have not been reported.

You asserted LP had a “bad batch” 

You asserted LP had problems with the Centerboard case. 
 

You made Thise statements as if they were proven facts. 

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1 minute ago, Gouvernail said:

You asserted LP had a “bad batch” 

You asserted LP had problems with the Centerboard case. 
 

You made Thise statements as if they were proven facts. 

Not sure what BH said but performance is different from durability/quality. 

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An Open Letter to Mr. Bruce Kirby

Dear Mr. Kirby,

You and Mr. Ian Bruce , RIP, designed, developed and launched a boat and class in the Laser, that changed the world of sailing.  You were instrumental in introducing hundreds of thousands of people, young and old, experienced and newbs, to sailing and racing.  The Laser and the class were unlike anything before it.  The boat was simple, accessible, affordable, and rugged.  The class was built on the concept of SMOD racing and focused on growth from the masses.  Here was the ideal boat and class for the club sailor, the college sailor, and with the addition of radial rig, for the young and old.

Sadly, the boat and class that remains now is a dark shadow of its former self.  Power hungry and greedy, the builders, the class itself, and World Sailing has corrupted your and Mr. Bruce’s vision.  Simple is now complex, accessible is now exclusive, affordable is now absurdly expensive, and rugged is now replaced with broken components that must be constantly replaced at considerable and significant added expense.  The class that used to be Laser doesn’t even call it the Laser anymore, they call it the ILCA whatever that is.  The boat and class is nothing like the joy that you designed.  A spar alone now costs what your complete boat used to.  As for the class; it has been corrupted beyond recognition.  SMOD has been replaced with some abomination called FRAND in order to chase the elite sailors of the world while ignoring the masses this great boat and class were built on.

The former lead builder, LP, recently fired, now proposes to rescue the class from PSA, ILCA and World Sailing with the launch of a competing class to ILCA called TLC.  Alphabet soup I know and an inevitable split between the elite and the mass of the class you and Mr. Bruce launched, but LP are no less greedy or power hungry than those they opposed.  No one serves the sailors anymore.  Not the class ILCA and not the builders PSA or LP.  And not World Sailing.  They are all too busy chasing the elite, their money, and control.  It is indeed a dark time for those who love and care about affordable, accessible, SMOD racing in single handed dinghies and you may ask or wonder if there is any hope and future for your and Mr. Bruce’s original vision.

There is.

Light the Torch and burn away the pretenders.

 I implore you to launch the Torch.  Target and price the boat and class for the masses.  Bring back SMOD.  Bring back simple and affordable.  Do away with composite spars and the upgraded vang and cunningham that add nothing and simply break boats and rigs.  Do away with new rigs and grey sails.  Do away with the greedy, and control seeking people corrupting your vision.  Do away with PSA, ILCA and LP.  Bring back the Laser and class that you launched.  I realize that you can't call it the Laser and would have to call it the Torch, but as I would, many sailors would be honored to buy, sail and race in a Torch class aligned with your original vision.  The elite are the few; we are the many.

In closing, I hope you bring back the boat and class so many of us grew up with and miss.  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  Viva la Torch!

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1 hour ago, LMI said:

An Open Letter to Mr. Bruce Kirby

Dear Mr. Kirby,

You and Mr. Ian Bruce , RIP, designed, developed and launched a boat and class in the Laser, that changed the world of sailing.  You were instrumental in introducing hundreds of thousands of people, young and old, experienced and newbs, to sailing and racing.  The Laser and the class were unlike anything before it.  The boat was simple, accessible, affordable, and rugged.  The class was built on the concept of SMOD racing and focused on growth from the masses.  Here was the ideal boat and class for the club sailor, the college sailor, and with the addition of radial rig, for the young and old.

Sadly, the boat and class that remains now is a dark shadow of its former self.  Power hungry and greedy, the builders, the class itself, and World Sailing has corrupted your and Mr. Bruce’s vision.  Simple is now complex, accessible is now exclusive, affordable is now absurdly expensive, and rugged is now replaced with broken components that must be constantly replaced at considerable and significant added expense.  The class that used to be Laser doesn’t even call it the Laser anymore, they call it the ILCA whatever that is.  The boat and class is nothing like the joy that you designed.  A spar alone now costs what your complete boat used to.  As for the class; it has been corrupted beyond recognition.  SMOD has been replaced with some abomination called FRAND in order to chase the elite sailors of the world while ignoring the masses this great boat and class were built on.

The former lead builder, LP, recently fired, now proposes to rescue the class from PSA, ILCA and World Sailing with the launch of a competing class to ILCA called TLC.  Alphabet soup I know and an inevitable split between the elite and the mass of the class you and Mr. Bruce launched, but LP are no less greedy or power hungry than those they opposed.  No one serves the sailors anymore.  Not the class ILCA and not the builders PSA or LP.  And not World Sailing.  They are all too busy chasing the elite, their money, and control.  It is indeed a dark time for those who love and care about affordable, accessible, SMOD racing in single handed dinghies and you may ask or wonder if there is any hope and future for your and Mr. Bruce’s original vision.

There is.

Light the Torch and burn away the pretenders.

 I implore you to launch the Torch.  Target and price the boat and class for the masses.  Bring back SMOD.  Bring back simple and affordable.  Do away with composite spars and the upgraded vang and cunningham that add nothing and simply break boats and rigs.  Do away with new rigs and grey sails.  Do away with the greedy, and control seeking people corrupting your vision.  Do away with PSA, ILCA and LP.  Bring back the Laser and class that you launched.  I realize that you can't call it the Laser and would have to call it the Torch, but as I would, many sailors would be honored to buy, sail and race in a Torch class aligned with your original vision.  The elite are the few; we are the many.

In closing, I hope you bring back the boat and class so many of us grew up with and miss.  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  Viva la Torch!

A third Laser class? That doesn't sound like progress.

Why not usr the democratic process within ILCA to change leadership and strategies if you believe that it needs a new direction?

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

A third Laser class? That doesn't sound like progress.

Why not usr the democratic process within ILCA to change leadership and strategies if you believe that it needs a new direction?

"the democratic process" eg: the Survey Monkey process :)

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27 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Francesco Marrai, 27 years old, from Livorno. In his career he was silver at the European Laser, he won the pre-Olympic 2015 in Rio, a Kieler Woche and was several times the Italian Laser champion. Marrai was blue in Rio 2016, finishing in twelfth place racing for the Yellow Flames. Marrai is a naval engineer.
Livorno– The birth of The Laser Class is one of the themes of the moment. The fledgling association that aims to provide a new association to laserists also has among its advisors the Italian Francesco Marrai, the best Italian helmsman of the single Olympic in the last ten years. Livornese, blue in Rio 2016, Marrai has been stopped by medical checks in this four-year period but has certainly not lost his passion for the Laser, boat and class in which he is working collaborating with the AICL and, for a few weeks, as coach of the Brazilian legend Robert Scheidt ahead of Tokyo 2020.


Francesco Marrai, 27 years old, from Livorno. In his career, he was silver at the European Laser, he won the pre-Olympic 2015 in Rio, a Kieler Woche and was several times the Italian Laser champion. Marrai was blue in Rio 2016, finishing in twelfth place racing for the Yellow Flames. Marrai has a three-year degree in naval engineering.
We therefore asked Francesco Marrai to explain to us what are the objectives and the ways in which The Laser Class aims to operate in relation to the existing International Laser Class Association. As we know, the story is complex, given that it concerns relations with World Sailing, antitrust regulations, lawsuits on the brand, the indispensable Olympic status, the role of existing manufacturers (Laser Performance, Performance Australia and Performance Japan) and of the new ones potentially selected by ILCA.


 
"Basically it is about bringing laser workers back to the center of the Laser class," explains Marrai that we hear from his Livorno, "The ultimate goal is that the Lasers that will be available on the market are all the same and that the class decisions are taken with a certified democratic method. "

The question of the differences recorded in the past between various of different production, such as Australian lasers compared to European ones, is central. "We want to form a committee that re-elaborates the class rules to decrease the tolerances, thus decreasing the chances of having different boats", continues Marrai, "The Laser measurement rule had such tolerances that resulted in boats that were never really identical in the end . The high level sailors who chose between boat and boat among those proposed are well aware of this. It must no longer be possible to browse boats of different production to find the best one, as we all have done, including myself.
A laser must be the same, regardless of who built it, be it the Laser Performance, the Australians, the Japanese, Devoti Sailing or Nautivera. Sailors must have access to totally one design boats, with ease of supply and competitive prices.

Opening up to new manufacturers should not be a problem if the boats are totally identical. And on this aspect we have formed a Technical Committee that is working on it.

 


Francesco Marrai at the Gamagori World Cup. Foto Renedo
The other aspect is class governance. We aspire to a truly democratic method, where decisions are made openly after certified consultations. We are not against innovation but only to the method to achieve it, which must be democratic. If the majority, with the due procedures, decide to adopt a technical modification or a different sail, it is welcome, provided that it is done transparently and not on the skin of the laser workers ".

And the theme of recognition by World Sailing, an aspect that appears decisive given the dynamics that govern international sailing? “We are working on it,” replies Marrai, “even if we realize that it is not a simple process. Laser Performance itself will be only one of the parties and should understand, like ILCA itself, that the interest of sailors is primary. Relations with ILCA, at the moment, are not easy, neither as EURILCA nor as national classes, but what we want to achieve is in the benefit of thousands of young people all over the world who race on this splendid drift ".

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

The question of the differences recorded in the past between various of different production, such as Australian lasers compared to European ones, is central. "We want to form a committee that re-elaborates the class rules to decrease the tolerances, thus decreasing the chances of having different boats", continues Marrai, "The Laser measurement rule had such tolerances that resulted in boats that were never really identical in the end . The high level sailors who chose between boat and boat among those proposed are well aware of this. It must no longer be possible to browse boats of different production to find the best one, as we all have done, including myself.
A laser must be the same, regardless of who built it, be it the Laser Performance, the Australians, the Japanese, Devoti Sailing or Nautivera. Sailors must have access to totally one design boats, with ease of supply and competitive prices.

 

That's one of the most constructive suggestions I have heard in this thread so far. I hope ILCA will run with this idea. With more builders coming online soon it is very important.

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7 hours ago, VWAP said:

 

6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Francesco Marrai, 27 years old, from Livorno. In his career he was silver at the European Laser, he won the pre-Olympic 2015 in Rio, a Kieler Woche and was several times the Italian Laser champion. Marrai was blue in Rio 2016, finishing in twelfth place racing for the Yellow Flames. Marrai is a naval engineer.
Livorno– The birth of The Laser Class is one of the themes of the moment. The fledgling association that aims to provide a new association to laserists also has among its advisors the Italian Francesco Marrai, the best Italian helmsman of the single Olympic in the last ten years. Livornese, blue in Rio 2016, Marrai has been stopped by medical checks in this four-year period but has certainly not lost his passion for the Laser, boat and class in which he is working collaborating with the AICL and, for a few weeks, as coach of the Brazilian legend Robert Scheidt ahead of Tokyo 2020.


Francesco Marrai, 27 years old, from Livorno. In his career, he was silver at the European Laser, he won the pre-Olympic 2015 in Rio, a Kieler Woche and was several times the Italian Laser champion. Marrai was blue in Rio 2016, finishing in twelfth place racing for the Yellow Flames. Marrai has a three-year degree in naval engineering.
We therefore asked Francesco Marrai to explain to us what are the objectives and the ways in which The Laser Class aims to operate in relation to the existing International Laser Class Association. As we know, the story is complex, given that it concerns relations with World Sailing, antitrust regulations, lawsuits on the brand, the indispensable Olympic status, the role of existing manufacturers (Laser Performance, Performance Australia and Performance Japan) and of the new ones potentially selected by ILCA.


 
"Basically it is about bringing laser workers back to the center of the Laser class," explains Marrai that we hear from his Livorno, "The ultimate goal is that the Lasers that will be available on the market are all the same and that the class decisions are taken with a certified democratic method. "

The question of the differences recorded in the past between various of different production, such as Australian lasers compared to European ones, is central. "We want to form a committee that re-elaborates the class rules to decrease the tolerances, thus decreasing the chances of having different boats", continues Marrai, "The Laser measurement rule had such tolerances that resulted in boats that were never really identical in the end . The high level sailors who chose between boat and boat among those proposed are well aware of this. It must no longer be possible to browse boats of different production to find the best one, as we all have done, including myself.
A laser must be the same, regardless of who built it, be it the Laser Performance, the Australians, the Japanese, Devoti Sailing or Nautivera. Sailors must have access to totally one design boats, with ease of supply and competitive prices.

Opening up to new manufacturers should not be a problem if the boats are totally identical. And on this aspect we have formed a Technical Committee that is working on it.

 


Francesco Marrai at the Gamagori World Cup. Foto Renedo
The other aspect is class governance. We aspire to a truly democratic method, where decisions are made openly after certified consultations. We are not against innovation but only to the method to achieve it, which must be democratic. If the majority, with the due procedures, decide to adopt a technical modification or a different sail, it is welcome, provided that it is done transparently and not on the skin of the laser workers ".

And the theme of recognition by World Sailing, an aspect that appears decisive given the dynamics that govern international sailing? “We are working on it,” replies Marrai, “even if we realize that it is not a simple process. Laser Performance itself will be only one of the parties and should understand, like ILCA itself, that the interest of sailors is primary. Relations with ILCA, at the moment, are not easy, neither as EURILCA nor as national classes, but what we want to achieve is in the benefit of thousands of young people all over the world who race on this splendid drift ".

I would not have expected VWAP to be posting articles that are anti-ILCA and supportive of the LPE vehicle of a competing Laser class.  What is happening????

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16 minutes ago, Wess said:

I would not have expected VWAP to be posting articles that are anti-ILCA and supportive of the LPE vehicle of a competing Laser class.  What is happening????

The article says "The ultimate goal is that the Lasers that will be available on the market are all the same and that the class decisions are taken with a certified democratic method. "

Can't everyone agree on that?

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6 minutes ago, tillerman said:

The article says "The ultimate goal is that the Lasers that will be available on the market are all the same and that the class decisions are taken with a certified democratic method. "

Can't everyone agree on that?

How is that not what we have now with ILCA?  Knowing Eric and Tracey I 110% believe the July vote was legitimate.  The PSA laser change, (being they are the only current builder) can easily be implemented by any new builders as they come on board.  It's just a mounting screw for God's sake.  I mean if you can't properly mount/seat a bailer in your Laser/ILCA hull you really don't need to be sailing one. Or own any boat for that matter.

Now, if builders what to include "optional" equipment in their package offering at an extra price that's totally their FRAND option to do so.  Or, if they want to take their time on builds to insure their boats are closer, but within measurement tolerances that again is their FRAND option.

I am enjoying the idiocy of the hysteria though. 

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8 minutes ago, tillerman said:

That's one of the most constructive suggestions I have heard in this thread so far. I hope ILCA will run with this idea. With more builders coming online soon it is very important.

It would help if ILCA would recognise the realities of the Laser situation and focus on aligning the class, given that both they and The Laser Class seem to have essentially the same stated objectives.

 I appreciate that they were probably hoping that LP and EurILCA would roll over and adopt their grand vision for the future but that's not looking likely, and their claim to have the backing of a majority of class sailors is looking increasingly dubious. 

 I feel it would substantially reinforce ILCA's position if there was strong evidence of an increase in Laser sales (or at least enquiries) since PSA started to make them available in the US, as that would support the suggestion that the problem in the US was supply not demand. Can anyone on here provide evidence for that?   Westcoat's post upthread suggests they haven't been beating off customers... 

 I see that TLC suggest that PSA & PSJ join them as manufacturers, and it appears to this uninformed observer that the difficulties with reinstating LP for supply of ILCA's are contractual/control, rather than construction based.  Perhaps it would be in ILCA's interest (given that it's probably in Laser sailors' interest) to meet them in the middle somewhere in order to unify the class?

 Who would lose from this?    PSA, perhaps?

Cheers,

                W.

 

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17 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I went to the Dinghy Show today.  All I can say is that regardless of rights and wrongs, what an absolute mess.  Having spoken to Laser Performance and Sailboats (agent for ILCA and previously major Laser retailer) and others involved, no one came out of it well and I wouldn’t buy either offering until there is waaay more clarity than they were able to give.

Essentially they didn’t say anything not already discussed here, but both sides were openly blaming each other.  As there is now a genuine choice between small class with big builder or big class with small builder, and neither will let the other play, the best choice is clearly to keep a pre 2020 Laser as it can play in either game.  So really no incentive whatsoever to buy new. 

Interestingly both sides said the other was not constructing boats as they should be, which was the reason given for neither allowing the other to play.  The LP man also questioned which boat had been selected for the Olympics.  As it was an ILCA submission to the event panel I assumed it was the ILCA offering that had been selected. 

The ARC rig was also on display, the Bethwaite C rigs were not.  sailboats said they only suppply class legal kit, so don’t intent to supply the C rigs (at least unless they get adopted by ILCA).

2A336E65-29C1-4F44-BEF4-C6666FC231DF.jpeg

05FB8EF0-C350-4328-B7BA-66AEF252DC45.jpeg

I can't believe I'm saying this, but great post Sosoomii.  

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8 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

It would help if ILCA would recognise the realities of the Laser situation and focus on aligning the class, given that both they and The Laser Class seem to have essentially the same stated objectives.

 I appreciate that they were probably hoping that LP and EurILCA would roll over and adopt their grand vision for the future but that's not looking likely, and their claim to have the backing of a majority of class sailors is looking increasingly dubious. 

 I feel it would substantially reinforce ILCA's position if there was strong evidence of an increase in Laser sales (or at least enquiries) since PSA started to make them available in the US, as that would support the suggestion that the problem in the US was supply not demand. Can anyone on here provide evidence for that?   Westcoat's post upthread suggests they haven't been beating off customers... 

 I see that TLC suggest that PSA & PSJ join them as manufacturers, and it appears to this uninformed observer that the difficulties with reinstating LP for supply of ILCA's are contractual/control, rather than construction based.  Perhaps it would be in ILCA's interest (given that it's probably in Laser sailors' interest) to meet them in the middle somewhere in order to unify the class?

 Who would lose from this?    PSA, perhaps?

Cheers,

                W.

 

Everyone forgets that Rasty REFUSES to play the FRAND game.  He will NOT give up his territories.  An will ONLY come back as a builder IF he is guaranteed his territories.  To keep the boat in the Olympics this will never happen.

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

Everyone forgets that Rasty REFUSES to play the FRAND game.  He will NOT give up his territories.  An will ONLY come back as a builder IF he is guaranteed his territories.  To keep the boat in the Olympics this will never happen.

He is on record as saying he is okay with FRAND.  He just wants to maintain his legally held trademark territorial rights.

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

He is on record as saying he is okay with FRAND.  He just wants to maintain his legally held trademark territorial rights.

From LP webpage:

"While LP has fully agreed to the Olympic Equipment Policy and FRAND requirements (and signed the requested document), LP does not agree to the introduction of generic names, regardless of what “vote” has taken place. This will lead to the demise of the class and tremendous difficulty maintaining One Design principles."

  Arguably, ILCA are "gold-plating" the FRAND requirements to leverage a power grab.   It could be argued that control of the class should belong with the class association but that was not the model that was in place during the heyday of the Laser and is not obviously the way forward. Particularly if the class association does not have sufficient backing from it's membership and other interested parties to  assert it.

 What a mess...

Cheers,

              W.

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27 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Everyone forgets that Rasty REFUSES to play the FRAND game.  He will NOT give up his territories.  An will ONLY come back as a builder IF he is guaranteed his territories.  To keep the boat in the Olympics this will never happen.

Saying (or writing) it doesn't make it true.  I get you believe everything ILCA says but it just ain't so. 

I am not saying I believe everything or even most things that come out of LPE, but come on you would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to not see that ILCA is now run by PSA and PSA is determined to drive LPE out of the business and is doing so.  

Come on Robbie, think about this and be honest... do you really think PSA wants LPE back as an ILCA approved builder making ILCA boats?

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6 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

From LP webpage:

"While LP has fully agreed to the Olympic Equipment Policy and FRAND requirements (and signed the requested document), LP does not agree to the introduction of generic names, regardless of what “vote” has taken place. This will lead to the demise of the class and tremendous difficulty maintaining One Design principles." 

Say what you like about Mr. Rastegar, I do see a lot of comments here and elsewhere by people that are opposed to the loss of the Laser name. The boat has been a Laser for 50 years. People want it to stay a Laser. People don't want an ILCA. They want a Laser.

Personally I don't care either way. My 1995 Laser will always be a Laser.

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26 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I wonder what will happen with numbering - will TLC start from #1 or carry on as if ILCAs don't exist?

The Laser Class in their FAQs said:

16. How will the boat/sail numbering on Laser Boats work?

There are over 200,000 Lasers Worldwide and TLC Plaques will continue in sequence from the existing number, which will be applied to new Lasers. Furthermore, owners of LaserPerformance's Laser Club Editions can request to purchase TLC Plaques from LP.

The video posted above showed a "The Laser Class" sticker being put on with a number of 217251. 

A quick review of the results of the 2020 Laser Radial Mens Worlds just finished in Australia, shows that this number must already have been allocated by ILCA/WS so it would appear that there will be Lasers out there with the same sail number.

http://sailingresults.net/sa/results/overall.aspx?ID=80330.2

And those people who have already bought LPE club Lasers, will presumably have to buy TLC plaques and take the 300,000 series sail numbers off their sails - if they ever put them on, that is......

 

 

 

 

 

Sailing Chandlery-com Club Laser.jpg

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

How is that not what we have now with ILCA?  Knowing Eric and Tracey I 110% believe the July vote was legitimate.  The PSA laser change, (being they are the only current builder) can easily be implemented by any new builders as they come on board.  It's just a mounting screw for God's sake.  I mean if you can't properly mount/seat a bailer in your Laser/ILCA hull you really don't need to be sailing one. Or own any boat for that matter.

Now, if builders what to include "optional" equipment in their package offering at an extra price that's totally their FRAND option to do so.  Or, if they want to take their time on builds to insure their boats are closer, but within measurement tolerances that again is their FRAND option.Yes 

I am enjoying the idiocy of the hysteria though. 

yes on the above

As to the hysteria, I don't bother reading the nonsense from the few or the other one with all the socks. They just want to create dissension among the sailors  for whatever reason. 

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6 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Kill joys. 

The legal right to grant monopolies carries with it all sorts of tough responsibilities.   LP already found this out when they tried to break the Sunfish Class.

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22 minutes ago, VWAP said:

yes on the above

As to the hysteria, I don't bother reading the nonsense from the few or the other one with all the socks. They just want to create dissension among the sailors  for whatever reason. 

Hey dumb fuck!! 
My post was simply an English translation  of your Italian language post .

I offered it with no personal comments or editing.

It really is unfortunate the Sailing Anarchy management allows low life scumbags like yourself to abuse the anonymity this forum provides to make personal attacks on real people. 
 

After reading your garbage for the last few years I am certain I could easily find out your real identity. I haven’t bothered because I simply cannot imagine why anyone would want to suffer the annoyance of a personal interaction with a loser like you. 
I already know one thing for certain: 

 It really must suck to be you. 

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3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Hey dumb fuck!! 
My post was simply an English translation  of your Italian language post .

I offered it with no personal comments or editing.

It really is unfortunate the Sailing Anarchy management allows low life scumbags like yourself to abuse the anonymity this forum provides to make personal attacks on real people. 
 

After reading your garbage for the last few years I am certain I could easily find out your real identity. I haven’t bothered because I simply cannot imagine why anyone would want to suffer the annoyance of a personal interaction with a loser like you. 
I already know one thing for certain: 

 It really must suck to be you. 

 

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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

He is on record as saying he is okay with FRAND.  He just wants to maintain his legally held trademark territorial rights.

I believe this is the problem.  No builder can have any kind of exclusive rights under FRAND.  I know I don't have to ask this, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

2nd point.  Who wants to saddle up with a builder that has a $5.0/mm judgement hanging over their head?

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12 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I believe this is the problem.  No builder can have any kind of exclusive rights under FRAND.  I know I don't have to ask this, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

2nd point.  Who wants to saddle up with a builder that has a $5.0/mm judgement hanging over their head?

I thought it was over 6 with the punitives not yet calculated.  Of course we have no idea what assets, if any, are in the companies with the judgments against them.  We also don't know whether a court would move to set aside any transfers of assets that may have been made in preparation for such a judgment, and which ones may be set aside.

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

You asserted LP had a “bad batch” 

You asserted LP had problems with the Centerboard case. 
 

You made Thise statements as if they were proven facts. 

That's because they are.

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17 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I believe this is the problem.  No builder can have any kind of exclusive rights under FRAND.  I know I don't have to ask this, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

2nd point.  Who wants to saddle up with a builder that has a $5.0/mm judgement hanging over their head?

Without wishing to speak for him, I assume he doesn't want exclusive rights.  I assume he wants to license the name and logo on FRAND terms to anyone who is interested in building Lasers.  This, by definition, is a fair and reasonable thing for the license holder to want.

Many on here like to mock Rastegar for his ineptitude, but he is well educated, experienced and successful across a number of business ventures.  Which isn't to say he isn't also difficult to like and hasn't made mistakes.  If supply to North America was poor, I would really want to know why.  If there was easy money to be made you'd have thought he'd want it...

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