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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/04/22/laser-class-seeks-feedback-on-ilca-constitution/

Laser Class Seeks Feedback on Updating ILCA Constitution

At the ILCA World Council (WC) meeting in November 2019 it was agreed that a formal process would be commenced for review and possible amendment of the ILCA Constitution.

Since then a small working group of WC members has been preparing a suggested process for the review. The resulting process document ( click here to access the Constitution Review Process document) has now been approved by the World Council. As well as setting out the process that will be used for the review the document contains some initial ideas which have been suggested on areas where change might be considered.

We are now commencing the second step of the process, where we would like to obtain suggestions on possible changes from all interested groups involved in the class including WC members, Districts, individual sailors and commercial parties. The process is aimed at allowing consultation and input from all interested parties, and ultimately allow adoption of changes to the constitution supported by all the necessary parties, including the required two thirds vote of our membership.

In order for this process to proceed in an orderly and rational manner we request that all member feedback is channeled through your appropriate WC regional representative. Replies on the website form will be channeled through to your appropriate regional representative.

Comments can be submitted either via the website form (link included at the end of this post), directly to your regional representative, or through your local district chairman who can forward to the regional representative, whichever you prefer. The regional representatives will then coordinate and collate all their regional feedback before forwarding it to the working group, who will combine it into a set of possible changes for formal WC consideration.

So we invite you to start thinking and documenting specific changes that you would like to see to the class Constitution, start talking amongst yourselves about what changes you would like to see and importantly record the logic and rational, both positive and negative, that you see for each of your ideas for change. In some cases you may wish to initially identify what you see as a problem with the existing document and propose a range of options for change or indeed just raise an issue for consideration without in fact having a specific solution in mind at this point.

We see this process being interactive, you are very welcome and we encourage you to progressively correspond with your regional representatives and you certainly do not have to just present something on the last day.

Our hope here is that through this process we generate a full range of ideas for possible revisions and critically get an understanding of the rationale behind each idea and also the general level of support each may have. Once we receive the range of ideas for changes from the regional representatives we will then move to stage 3, where the working group will seek to analyze the worldwide feedback and come up with a discussion document for the World Council on the range of specific changes that may deserve consideration and the arguments for and against each.

It has been widely recognized that some change to the ILCA Constitution is desirable. It is important for us all to remember though that we are looking to get to a point where there is sufficient consensus on any change to ensure that it can be successfully adopted. As such it will be important that we recognize the success the class has enjoyed over the last 50 years with the existing constitution and structure and look to changes that can be demonstrated to all parties to truly offer the potential to build on the existing strength of the class in the future.

We are aiming to complete stage 2, receipt by the working group of submissions on ideas for change, by 1 July 2020 so we ask everyone to have their submissions to their regional representatives by 1 June 2020 to allow each region time to consolidate their feedback and submit it to the working group by 1 July.

CLICK HERE to access the on-line feedback submission page.

Tracy Usher
ILCA President

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2 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/04/22/laser-class-seeks-feedback-on-ilca-constitution/

Laser Class Seeks Feedback on Updating ILCA Constitution

At the ILCA World Council (WC) meeting in November 2019 it was agreed that a formal process would be commenced for review and possible amendment of the ILCA Constitution.

Since then a small working group of WC members has been preparing a suggested process for the review. The resulting process document ( click here to access the Constitution Review Process document) has now been approved by the World Council. As well as setting out the process that will be used for the review the document contains some initial ideas which have been suggested on areas where change might be considered.

We are now commencing the second step of the process, where we would like to obtain suggestions on possible changes from all interested groups involved in the class including WC members, Districts, individual sailors and commercial parties. The process is aimed at allowing consultation and input from all interested parties, and ultimately allow adoption of changes to the constitution supported by all the necessary parties, including the required two thirds vote of our membership.

In order for this process to proceed in an orderly and rational manner we request that all member feedback is channeled through your appropriate WC regional representative. Replies on the website form will be channeled through to your appropriate regional representative.

Comments can be submitted either via the website form (link included at the end of this post), directly to your regional representative, or through your local district chairman who can forward to the regional representative, whichever you prefer. The regional representatives will then coordinate and collate all their regional feedback before forwarding it to the working group, who will combine it into a set of possible changes for formal WC consideration.

So we invite you to start thinking and documenting specific changes that you would like to see to the class Constitution, start talking amongst yourselves about what changes you would like to see and importantly record the logic and rational, both positive and negative, that you see for each of your ideas for change. In some cases you may wish to initially identify what you see as a problem with the existing document and propose a range of options for change or indeed just raise an issue for consideration without in fact having a specific solution in mind at this point.

We see this process being interactive, you are very welcome and we encourage you to progressively correspond with your regional representatives and you certainly do not have to just present something on the last day.

Our hope here is that through this process we generate a full range of ideas for possible revisions and critically get an understanding of the rationale behind each idea and also the general level of support each may have. Once we receive the range of ideas for changes from the regional representatives we will then move to stage 3, where the working group will seek to analyze the worldwide feedback and come up with a discussion document for the World Council on the range of specific changes that may deserve consideration and the arguments for and against each.

It has been widely recognized that some change to the ILCA Constitution is desirable. It is important for us all to remember though that we are looking to get to a point where there is sufficient consensus on any change to ensure that it can be successfully adopted. As such it will be important that we recognize the success the class has enjoyed over the last 50 years with the existing constitution and structure and look to changes that can be demonstrated to all parties to truly offer the potential to build on the existing strength of the class in the future.

We are aiming to complete stage 2, receipt by the working group of submissions on ideas for change, by 1 July 2020 so we ask everyone to have their submissions to their regional representatives by 1 June 2020 to allow each region time to consolidate their feedback and submit it to the working group by 1 July.

CLICK HERE to access the on-line feedback submission page.

Tracy Usher
ILCA President

Good to see this positive action going on. 

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This'll get folks fired up again! Wess can talk about something other than his holy trinity - hidden fees, the meaning of "soon" and insulting ILCA leadership. Or maybe he cann't....

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9 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/04/22/laser-class-seeks-feedback-on-ilca-constitution/

Laser Class Seeks Feedback on Updating ILCA Constitution

At the ILCA World Council (WC) meeting in November 2019 it was agreed that a formal process would be commenced for review and possible amendment of the ILCA Constitution.

Since then a small working group of WC members has been preparing a suggested process for the review. The resulting process document ( click here to access the Constitution Review Process document) has now been approved by the World Council. As well as setting out the process that will be used for the review the document contains some initial ideas which have been suggested on areas where change might be considered.

We are now commencing the second step of the process, where we would like to obtain suggestions on possible changes from all interested groups involved in the class including WC members, Districts, individual sailors and commercial parties. The process is aimed at allowing consultation and input from all interested parties, and ultimately allow adoption of changes to the constitution supported by all the necessary parties, including the required two thirds vote of our membership.

In order for this process to proceed in an orderly and rational manner we request that all member feedback is channeled through your appropriate WC regional representative. Replies on the website form will be channeled through to your appropriate regional representative.

Comments can be submitted either via the website form (link included at the end of this post), directly to your regional representative, or through your local district chairman who can forward to the regional representative, whichever you prefer. The regional representatives will then coordinate and collate all their regional feedback before forwarding it to the working group, who will combine it into a set of possible changes for formal WC consideration.

So we invite you to start thinking and documenting specific changes that you would like to see to the class Constitution, start talking amongst yourselves about what changes you would like to see and importantly record the logic and rational, both positive and negative, that you see for each of your ideas for change. In some cases you may wish to initially identify what you see as a problem with the existing document and propose a range of options for change or indeed just raise an issue for consideration without in fact having a specific solution in mind at this point.

We see this process being interactive, you are very welcome and we encourage you to progressively correspond with your regional representatives and you certainly do not have to just present something on the last day.

Our hope here is that through this process we generate a full range of ideas for possible revisions and critically get an understanding of the rationale behind each idea and also the general level of support each may have. Once we receive the range of ideas for changes from the regional representatives we will then move to stage 3, where the working group will seek to analyze the worldwide feedback and come up with a discussion document for the World Council on the range of specific changes that may deserve consideration and the arguments for and against each.

It has been widely recognized that some change to the ILCA Constitution is desirable. It is important for us all to remember though that we are looking to get to a point where there is sufficient consensus on any change to ensure that it can be successfully adopted. As such it will be important that we recognize the success the class has enjoyed over the last 50 years with the existing constitution and structure and look to changes that can be demonstrated to all parties to truly offer the potential to build on the existing strength of the class in the future.

We are aiming to complete stage 2, receipt by the working group of submissions on ideas for change, by 1 July 2020 so we ask everyone to have their submissions to their regional representatives by 1 June 2020 to allow each region time to consolidate their feedback and submit it to the working group by 1 July.

CLICK HERE to access the on-line feedback submission page.

Tracy Usher
ILCA President

This is excellent news. I see the document linked does include the idea of restructuring the World Council to make it more democratic and representative of the membership.
 

Quote

 

2. Make up of the World Council
The current constitution prescribes that the WC is comprised mainly of a single representative for each region. It has been suggested that this should be amended so that the representation more closely follows the distribution of current class membership, with regions with larger membership having additional council representatives more in proportion with their membership numbers.

Alternatively it has been suggested that additional regions, or possibly sub regions, could be created under the existing rules by subdividing the existing larger regions to provide better balanced regional representation, as was previously done in separating Asia and Oceania for example.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

This'll get folks fired up again! Wess can talk about something other than his holy trinity - hidden fees, the meaning of "soon" and insulting ILCA leadership. Or maybe he cann't....

Oh Bill its hardly shocking that you elite keep turning what used to be a Laser into an abortion called the ILCA.  And I am sure you will have a new builder up and selling boats soon along with all your hidden fees imposed by your lying leaders.  Enjoy your new rigs.  You folks mutate faster than a virus.  #ILCAtheothervirus  :P

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31 minutes ago, Wess said:

Oh Bill its hardly shocking that you elite keep turning what used to be a Laser into an abortion called the ILCA.  And I am sure you will have a new builder up and selling boats soon along with all your hidden fees imposed by your lying leaders.  Enjoy your new rigs.  You folks mutate faster than a virus.  #ILCAtheothervirus  :P

Elite... gosh... no one has ever referred to me as such. 
#anactualgrassrooternotapretender

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13 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/04/22/laser-class-seeks-feedback-on-ilca-constitution/

Laser Class Seeks Feedback on Updating ILCA Constitution

At the ILCA World Council (WC) meeting in November 2019 it was agreed that a formal process would be commenced for review and possible amendment of the ILCA Constitution.

Since then a small working group of WC members has been preparing a suggested process for the review. The resulting process document ( click here to access the Constitution Review Process document) has now been approved by the World Council. As well as setting out the process that will be used for the review the document contains some initial ideas which have been suggested on areas where change might be considered.

We are now commencing the second step of the process, where we would like to obtain suggestions on possible changes from all interested groups involved in the class including WC members, Districts, individual sailors and commercial parties. The process is aimed at allowing consultation and input from all interested parties, and ultimately allow adoption of changes to the constitution supported by all the necessary parties, including the required two thirds vote of our membership.

In order for this process to proceed in an orderly and rational manner we request that all member feedback is channeled through your appropriate WC regional representative. Replies on the website form will be channeled through to your appropriate regional representative.

Comments can be submitted either via the website form (link included at the end of this post), directly to your regional representative, or through your local district chairman who can forward to the regional representative, whichever you prefer. The regional representatives will then coordinate and collate all their regional feedback before forwarding it to the working group, who will combine it into a set of possible changes for formal WC consideration.

So we invite you to start thinking and documenting specific changes that you would like to see to the class Constitution, start talking amongst yourselves about what changes you would like to see and importantly record the logic and rational, both positive and negative, that you see for each of your ideas for change. In some cases you may wish to initially identify what you see as a problem with the existing document and propose a range of options for change or indeed just raise an issue for consideration without in fact having a specific solution in mind at this point.

We see this process being interactive, you are very welcome and we encourage you to progressively correspond with your regional representatives and you certainly do not have to just present something on the last day.

Our hope here is that through this process we generate a full range of ideas for possible revisions and critically get an understanding of the rationale behind each idea and also the general level of support each may have. Once we receive the range of ideas for changes from the regional representatives we will then move to stage 3, where the working group will seek to analyze the worldwide feedback and come up with a discussion document for the World Council on the range of specific changes that may deserve consideration and the arguments for and against each.

It has been widely recognized that some change to the ILCA Constitution is desirable. It is important for us all to remember though that we are looking to get to a point where there is sufficient consensus on any change to ensure that it can be successfully adopted. As such it will be important that we recognize the success the class has enjoyed over the last 50 years with the existing constitution and structure and look to changes that can be demonstrated to all parties to truly offer the potential to build on the existing strength of the class in the future.

We are aiming to complete stage 2, receipt by the working group of submissions on ideas for change, by 1 July 2020 so we ask everyone to have their submissions to their regional representatives by 1 June 2020 to allow each region time to consolidate their feedback and submit it to the working group by 1 July.

CLICK HERE to access the on-line feedback submission page.

Tracy Usher
ILCA President

Damnit!! Schools are closed and the professor is still giving us homework.

It will take at least a couple long evenings on my own, some meetings with others, multiple emails and phone calls, creation of a rough draft ( which I would have to post here and on the Laserforum), additional study of the feedback, probably additional forum posts, more time writing another draft, more meetings and emails, writing of my best rendition of what I believe might be a consensus document, presentation of that document to those who will have participated with me in discussions for final feedback, and presentation of the document with a list of anyone who cares to support the document. 
 

If my goal is to present a useful set of recommendations, I see a hundred hours as a minimum.

Do I care that much?? 
 

Maybe 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Gouvernail said:

Damnit!! Schools are closed and the professor is still giving us homework.

It will take at least a couple long evenings on my own, some meetings with others, multiple emails and phone calls, creation of a rough draft ( which I would have to post here and on the Laserforum), additional study of the feedback, probably additional forum posts, more time writing another draft, more meetings and emails, writing of my best rendition of what I believe might be a consensus document, presentation of that document to those who will have participated with me in discussions for final feedback, and presentation of the document with a list of anyone who cares to support the document. 
 

If my goal is to present a useful set of recommendations, I see a hundred hours as a minimum.

Do I care that much?? 
 

Maybe 

 

 

 

Go for it! 

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9 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:


My business is totally swamped right now.  Nobody may race a sailboat. 
We are running around like the pit crews at Indy during a rain delay. 

That’s good to hear. 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:


My business is totally swamped right now.  Nobody may race a sailboat. 
We are running around like the pit crews at Indy during a rain delay. 

With 26 million unemployed and small businesses failing all over... that is the best news I have heard in a while.  Very glad for you and your team Gouv. 

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12 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

http://www.laserinternational.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/ILCA-Constitution-review-process-April-2020.pdf
 

That seems like an admission that the change from the starburst to the ILCA logo on the sail is unconstitutional.  

LOL, more than that... but you gotta let this play out a bit.  Set the drag lighter and let them take some line and time...

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I would like to put whatever design I want on my sail. Give me the dimensions and let me express myself. The ILCA logo only works on starboard tack anyway...

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

I would like to put whatever design I want on my sail. Give me the dimensions and let me express myself. The ILCA logo only works on starboard tack anyway...

I see your world with silhouettes of martinis, and the trucker’s mudflap chick 

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43 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

I think everyone having their own sail logo is a great idea. How about this one?

6D43067E-3C84-4D59-A8E0-3A432B1D5B27.png.b844ab1a834fa705211b9d4b2ec5742b.png

I hear you, man.

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

There's a well known Santana 20 called "Disaster Area" the had one of the chrome "Truck Flap Ladies" on it's stern.

i had at one point come up with some distasteful names for my Laser. I think my favorite was ‘Barely Legal’

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12 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

i had at one point come up with some distasteful names for my Laser. I think my favorite was ‘Barely Legal’

That would make an ILCA "Jail Bait!"

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

i had at one point come up with some distasteful names for my Laser. I think my favorite was ‘Barely Legal’

Then in really small letters "Except in South Carolina".

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19 minutes ago, Wess said:

One year and one month ILCA and still no new builder selling boats.  More than 13 months. 

That’s it! I am giving away my Laser, buying a trimaran and taking shots at ILCA to nobody’s benefit. Oh wait. That’s been done. 

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I love this place. Puppets on a string. So easy to get a reaction. Just by pointing out that when ILCA says “soon” they mean at least 1 year and 1 month!!  Hugs and kisses...

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

I love this place. Puppets on a string. So easy to get a reaction. Just by pointing out that when ILCA says “soon” they mean at least 1 year and 1 month!!  Hugs and kisses...

No hugs and kisses during social distancing. 

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18 hours ago, Wess said:

One year and one month ILCA and still no new builder selling boats.  More than 13 months. 

And a ANOTHER big shoe is getting ready to drop on LPE, (if it hasn't already).  Good luck Laser "Class" folks....Don't worry it's not anything they haven't asked for...

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Are those sheep or lemming LOL...

 

Sheep in the dark can be appealing to a Scot....

What is the difference between a Scottish sheep farmer and a Rolling Stones song?

“One says, 'Hey you, get off of my cloud!", and the other says, 'Hey McCloud, get off of my ewe!”

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So a man walks into a bar, and sits down. He starts a conversation with an old guy next to him. The old guy has obviously had a few. He says to the man:

"You see that dock out there? Built it myself, hand crafted each piece, and it's the best dock in town! But do they call me "McGregor the dock builder"? No! And you see that bridge over there? I built that, took me two months, through rain, sleet and scoarching weather, but do they call me "McGregor the bridge builder"? No! And you see that pier over there, I built that, best pier in the county! But do they call me "McGregor the pier builder"? No!"

The old guy looks around, and makes sure that nobody is listening, and leans to the man, and he says:

"but you bang one sheep..."

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

And a ANOTHER big shoe is getting ready to drop on LPE, (if it hasn't already).  Good luck Laser "Class" folks....Don't worry it's not anything they haven't asked for...

Do tell!

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8 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Do tell!

I don't think I'm supposed to so I'm going to sit on it just in case.  However, it should come to light very soon, (For Wess, my sooner is like sooner than new builder lasers coming out ;-) ).

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I don't think I'm supposed to so I'm going to sit on it just in case.  However, it should come to light very soon, (For Wess, my sooner is like sooner than new builder lasers coming out ;-) ).

Oh that's just great.... Come on - you're amongst friends! Oh, never mind....

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16 hours ago, RobbieB said:

And a ANOTHER big shoe is getting ready to drop on LPE, (if it hasn't already).  Good luck Laser "Class" folks....Don't worry it's not anything they haven't asked for...

a different set of trademarks about to be enforced by ILCA? :lol:

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5 hours ago, greenwhiteblack said:

Something to do with their ability to continue building Lasers? 

Your on it!  Of course anything like that is subject to ANOTHER lengthy court battle so.....Like I said this is a class that requires patience.  I'll continue to sail while the guys making the big bucks deal with all the worry.  I'm confident things will work out like they are supposed to at some point.

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Your on it!  Of course anything like that is subject to ANOTHER lengthy court battle so.....Like I said this is a class that requires patience.  I'll continue to sail while the guys making the big bucks deal with all the worry.  I'm confident things will work out like they are supposed to at some point.

Clearly you have never trolled for rock fish.  You canntt catch anything decent that way.  You gotta leave the bait in the water longer before reeling in.  Set the drag lighter.  Have a beer of 6.  Geeze... southerners!

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On 4/30/2020 at 1:43 AM, dgmckim said:

...

"but you bang one sheep..."

That joke is usually told with regard to one goat.

That's (part of) the origin of my yellow Laser's name.

Now I have a newer Laser (and can't sail it). Needs a more tasteful name, methinks.

FB_IMG_1588422806550.jpg

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9 minutes ago, OneGoat said:

That joke is usually told with regard to one goat.

That's (part of) the origin of my yellow Laser's name.

Now I have a newer Laser (and can't sail it). Needs a more tasteful name, methinks.

FB_IMG_1588422806550.jpg

20200502-084238.jpg

 

Made that tastier for you

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6 hours ago, OneGoat said:

That joke is usually told with regard to one goat.

That's (part of) the origin of my yellow Laser's name.

Now I have a newer Laser (and can't sail it). Needs a more tasteful name, methinks.

FB_IMG_1588422806550.jpg

that's a great boat name origin, I have only ever heard the sheep version. I guess the joke is flexible.

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On 4/29/2020 at 10:13 PM, RobbieB said:

And a ANOTHER big shoe is getting ready to drop on LPE, (if it hasn't already).  Good luck Laser "Class" folks....Don't worry it's not anything they haven't asked for...

 

On 5/1/2020 at 5:32 PM, greenwhiteblack said:

Something to do with their ability to continue building Lasers? 

My guess, based on past conversations, is that according to the various agreements that it seems that LPE have breached, the molds actually don't belong to them and at some point, they will be taken away. LPE can make new ones, but not off the official plug. I also believe that what they won't be allowed to do is to continue making the boats in accordance with the manual, so at some point in time soon, the LPE boats will have a different layup and construction technique to class legal boats. This would apply to all aspects of the boat, including sails, masts and foils. This means that not only will the LPE boats be non compliant due to plaques etc., but fairly soon the will be non compliant because they will not be the same as all the other "Laser/ILCA" boats. While I can see that people don't mind buying "training" sails that are non compliant, that is OK because they have no real second hand value. But when it comes to complete boats, while some clubs might allow the LPE product to compete against class legal boats, it is hard to see how second hand values will remain any good even considering the lower cost of the boat.

So this is what I don't understand. LPE has the opportunity to sign a new deal with the association that would allow them to continue to build class legal boats. Yes, they would have to accept competition in their trademark geography, but they are going to get that anyway. They are discounting already, so the reality is that they cannot be in a worse off position. It is hard to see an end game where LPE wins and gets what they want - being able to build class legal boats and still have exclusive territory. We are now well past that point, so what is the real end game LPE are trying to achieve?

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Don't think he thinks he has to win in court.  Anyone can make an exact copy of a Laser, or an ILCA, as others have already done and proven.  But as to how covid has changed things.... who knows.

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On 5/3/2020 at 5:29 AM, dgmckim said:

that's a great boat name origin, I have only ever heard the sheep version. I guess the joke is flexible.

I'm known by my cycling mates (some of whom also sail) as Billy Goat, because I usually wear a 2-3" goatee beard. So there's that angle as well.

I call my catamaran "Two Goats" for consistency.

Unfortunately (actually not unfortunate at all) a local winery also knows the joke, and makes a "One Goat" Shiraz.   https://michaelunwinwines.com.au/product/one-goat-shiraz

He has got his One Goat into the bar at the sailing club. So people assume my One Goat is somehow related to his One Goat, and don't understand the backstory of either.

But yeah, new Laser is ready to go after iso is lifted (in time for next season at least?), so that confusion can be consigned to history. Just need to lock in a new name.

But will I change my username or not?

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On 5/3/2020 at 10:58 AM, Wess said:

Don't think he thinks he has to win in court.  Anyone can make an exact copy of a Laser, or an ILCA, as others have already done and proven.  

I think you are incorrect on this. You can build one that looks like an exact copy, but you cannot build one in accordance with the construction manual unless you have a legal agreement to use that manual. I  believe that any such construction would be a breach of copyright. LP is being backed into a corner - if it is building class legal boats, it breaches copyright, if they aren't class legal.........

Wess, I know that you value the one design element of the class, so surely this spells the end of LP as a class builder, unless they sign a new contract. They can keep calling it a Laser but it wouldn't be class compliant, whatever the class is called, just like they could build one out of carbon composite and call it a Laser, but it wouldn't be class compliant. The boats are either built to the manual and are class compliant or they aren't. How long do you think LP will be allowed to say they are building class compliant boats, and what do you think the demand will be like for non compliant boats?

 

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I don’t know enough about Copyrights to contribute knowledge but I can contribute questions:

**Wouldn’t  the Copyrights apply to the manual? 
***If the manual is copyrighted doesn’t that mean others can’t print copies and sell copies of that book?? 
*** Didn’t the design rights on the boat expire? 
***Has the boat design right been somehow extended by occasional changes to the design?? 
*** Would  that tactic be available when those holding the design rights simultaneously claim the boat is the same one design boat?? 
**** does an Association that welcomes all versions of Lasers preciously built disqualify itself  from claiming new boats built exactly like one of the previous versions may not Participate? 
***supposing a racing club can welcome or deny entry to any boat for any reason, is there anybreason a business whose product is exactly like toys the club  allows cannot sue the club? 
*** Because I do not know the answer to this question, I am concerned about the risks the ILCA officers might be taking >>
Could an insurance company who insures class officers for actions taken  as Association officers say, “The actions you took were not authorized by your Association constitution. Therefore we find you were not acting as an officer of the Association and your behavior is not insured. ???

 

i am not a Lawyer and I don’t play one on line. I simply wonder:

A. If my friends are risking more than they intend to risk 

B. If they can ever win vs LP


 


 

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Simon - the end of LPE as a class builder came over 400 days ago when ILCA said they would have a new builder soon but still doesn't have one up and running.  I doubt anyone (or I) care much about the loss of LPE.  That doesn't make much difference.  ILCA's fuckery on the other hand does.  In any event its all far from over and there is nothing anyone can do to influence it so sit back and watch and wait to see how it end.  I am slightly bummed as I would like to buy a new boat but without knowing how it will end its a bad time to do that.  I do like OD but if the option existed would rather see the class go back in time (considerably).

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On 5/5/2020 at 4:50 AM, SimonN said:

I think you are incorrect on this. You can build one that looks like an exact copy, but you cannot build one in accordance with the construction manual unless you have a legal agreement to use that manual. I  believe that any such construction would be a breach of copyright.

I think you're wrong. Copyright is all about making copies, so you can't make copies of the construction manual. Nothing to stop anyone building boats to an effectively identical spec if they happen to know what it is. But, and its a big but, should a US court eventually find all the contracts that were signed valid then there were termination clauses that prohibited an ex builder from doing all sorts of things that any random company could. Whether those contracts still apply to the current Laser builder as they are not the one who signed the contracts is another matter that doubtless the lawyers can argue over for ten more years. 

On 5/5/2020 at 5:56 AM, Gouvernail said:

**Wouldn’t  the Copyrights apply to the manual?  - Yes
***If the manual is copyrighted doesn’t that mean others can’t print copies and sell copies of that book??  - Yes, but why would they want to (above)
*** Didn’t the design rights on the boat expire? Very messy phrase but in general there are no design rights.
***Has the boat design right been somehow extended by occasional changes to the design?? Not applicable as there are no design rights
*** Would  that tactic be available when those holding the design rights simultaneously claim the boat is the same one design boat?? Not applicable as there are no design rights
**** does an Association that welcomes all versions of Lasers preciously built disqualify itself  from claiming new boats built exactly like one of the previous versions may not Participate? In general an Association can do what it likes subject to national law like discrimination against racial groups and such
***supposing a racing club can welcome or deny entry to any boat for any reason, is there any reason a business whose product is exactly like toys the club  allows cannot sue the club? In general a club can do what it likes subject to national law like discrimination against racial groups and such. If I want to issue SIs for an event for boats only made by one builder in a multi builder class I can.

 

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35 minutes ago, JimC said:
35 minutes ago, JimC said:

**** does an Association that welcomes all versions of Lasers preciously built disqualify itself  from claiming new boats built exactly like one of the previous versions may not Participate? In general an Association can do what it likes subject to national law like discrimination against racial groups and such

and, in the specific case of Olympic classes, subject to  FRAND.

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Why do we keep seeing silly statements such as "copyright" being applied to boats, or "design rights" which certainly do not apply as this boat design predates the VHDPA by a long time and is over 10 years old at any rate?

This just gets people confused. Copyright is not patent. And "design rights" is not a thing, except if you want to call the provisions in the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act "design rights." (Yes, the VHDPA is an extension of copyright law---which is confusing....). But the laser predates all that.

Please correct me where I went off the rails on this.

 

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4 hours ago, fastyacht said:

 

Please correct me where I went off the rails on this.

 

Sorry!! I have insufficient knowledge to offer corrections. All I can do is ask questions 

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9 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Why do we keep seeing silly statements such as "copyright" being applied to boats, or "design rights" which certainly do not apply as this boat design predates the VHDPA by a long time and is over 10 years old at any rate?

This just gets people confused. Copyright is not patent. And "design rights" is not a thing, except if you want to call the provisions in the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act "design rights." (Yes, the VHDPA is an extension of copyright law---which is confusing....). But the laser predates all that.

Please correct me where I went off the rails on this.

 

Trademarks is a thing.

https://www.whipgroup.com/blog/whipgroup-obtains-6800000-willful-infringement-jury-verdict-on-behalf-of-legendary-designer-of-laser-sailboat/

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16 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Yes, that is true. But a hull isn't a trademark. What you call it, name it, market it as, etc is a trademark...

Don't forget "trade dress" either...

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On 5/7/2020 at 9:48 AM, fastyacht said:

....

Please correct me where I went off the rails on this.

 

approaching poste 7,000 ...I think the train derailed a long time ago

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

approaching poste 7,000 ...I think the train derailed a long time ago

Actually - several derailments along the journey! 

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I wonder what the final destination will look like... Only then will we know if @Wess will have to pay all those guys the rum he bet.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

I wonder what the final destination will look like... Only then will we know if @Wess will have to pay all those guys the rum he bet.

Did you forget to stand one caribou apart from somebody else?  You got it and its eating your brain as well as toes?  Your lemmings lost that bet over 400 days ago.  They just lack the integrity to pay it!  Typical ILCA!!

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So many snowflakes; so little time. The fishing is good in these parts.

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Hello!

Just joined this forum and topic because potentially nasty things are brewing around the laser our beloved beachboat-turned-hotbed-of-competitive-sailing.

I have been sailing for now 58 years (i'm 62) and racing lasers competitively since 1978 . I've been also a club chairman, sailing school executive, sailing instructor for more than four decades (all that on a not for profit unpaid volunteer basis) and organized one big laser event (laser masters European championship 2008 in Corsica, a real challege as 170 lasers from 17 nations turned up and our volunteer run beachfront sailing school had no previous experience in organizing Big, ISAF Grade 2 events ...(it went OK but seen from behind the scenes we were close to disaster.)

In Europe more and more sailors are getting aware of the LP / PSA wrangle and are not happy at all with it...and specially with the cost of the boat likely to skyrocket if the imbecile aussie full carbon "modern" rigs are forced upon the sailors-customers. More and more are also getting conscious about ILCA management, questions about governance , transparency, level of pay for class officers are increasingly discussed...and some national laser associations seriously consider or have already joined the newly formed class.

Euriilca tried to play it diplomatically but LP and PSA seem to have drawn the long knives and maybe the diplomatic approach wasn't firm enough.

Lately ILCA seems to get a whiff of the discontent and launched a "consultation" about a forecasted constitution change . Dont know if it is a sincere desire to get things oon an even keel or a PR exercise while the planned takeover by Aussies takes place but as we, ILCA fee paying european  laser sailors are (supposedly) asked our advice...well i gave it and encouraged others to give it as well.  This is only my little bit of scribbling but some more should be coming before 1st June.

the Laser class is in a big crisis everything must be done to preserve the affordability of the most popular boat inthe world by taking every step to get the currently overpriced boat back to an affordable level . As a club chairman, class officer, long time laser racer in France (40 years as of now) and organiser of a big event ( 170 entries+ European masters championship 2008) and pen for the french Laser newsletter  , i ran a few years ago a series of articles about the rise peak and demise of popular or once popular sailing classes (Star -in 1912 it was indeed a cheap boat-, Sunfish, optimist ,Vaurien, Mirror Dinghy , Windsurf , 420 , Hobie Cats ...) originally  intended to democratize sailing ( I call them "Popuboats") and the pattern is quite clear : as the numbers grow, the" greed for speed ", competitive pressure kicks in and develops, the once inexpensive boat (originally meant for recreational sailing or educational-sailing school purposes) evolves to a tweaked, expensive and comparatively unaffordable racer with ageing and increasingly bourgeois buyers/racers.

The Laser should not have followed this pattern thanks to it being tightly controlled a SMOD without the possibility of multiple sailmakers and "speed gizmos" manufacturers. It seems to be doing just that now, through a slow process that started with the closure of the Waterford Ireland manufacturing facility that used to mill tens of thousands of cheaply (and possibly a tad fragile) lasers back in the 80's and 90's.

As far as the class constitution is concerned , I strongly advocate for the following points.

The first goal in the constitution should be to facilitate the access to the sport for everybody through a boat kept to a minimum price (it was specified in the original constitution of the Vaurien class back in the 1950's with a retail price equivalent to the retail price of two ordinary non-racing  bicycles).

The class should take every step to avoid environementally unfriendly and politically unsustainable  planned obsolescence by taking every possible step to keep second hand boats competitive for those who cannot buy a new Laser and back up current Laser owners by ensuring theirboat retains a good second hand market value .

Take every possible step to ensure the class and it's world council are fully independant of the Boat and equipment builders as conflicting interests are un-ethical and potentially damageable to sailors interests. In particular every step should be taken to avoid anybody financially connected with equipment manufacturers to have any sort of voting right or acess to decision process in the class organisation (regional and world councils technical comittees and the like).

Take every possible step to ensure the class and it's world council are fully independant of the Boat and equipment builders as conflicting interests are un-ethical and potentially damageable to sailors interests. In particular every step should be taken to avoid anybody financially connected with equipment manufacturers to have any sort of voting right or acess to decision process in the class organisation (regional and world councils technical comittees and the like).
As the Laser is an international class and a boat for every sailor worldwide ample time (say 6 months) should be given to translate and discuss a  prospective change in the boat characteristics , building techniques, material . (The reduction to 1 month delay and the switch to "survey monkey" vote has raised an outcry everywhere in Europe as well as in other countries-regions and attracted lots of unfavourable commennt on the class governing body, both in traditional press and social media / internet forums)

In the same line , a special vote control body should be instituted within ILCA to ensure full fairness and transparency in the voting process required for any change in class rules.

The Class goals should be kept within the sport sphere and no possibility should be left in the class constitution to include some possibly well-minded goals of general charity (there has been documented cases of funds embezzelment or tax evasion throug such general noble-minded but vague goals).

Every step should be taken to ensure a fair andequal  representation of  Laser sailors in ILCA World Council on a proportional basis . Currently the situation is not satisfying with almost Two thirds of racing and class fee payin laser sailors being in Europe and Europe being under-represented in the ILCA World council.

Full financial transparency should be endorsed by ILCA and every document made available to ILCA fee paying Laser Sailors .

A special focus should be instituted on salary control for paid class officers and a capping limit of 120 % of , say, an average Elementary School teacher wage shoud be instituted.

No paid classofficer should have a vote right and any degree of decisional power  in the ILCA World Council or any other regional or district governing body.


In case of Class Association dissolution, an pre-set body of independant curators shoud be instituted , independant from executive ILCA comittees to ensure ex class assets should be transfered to a sailing class or sports not-for- profit concern pursuing similar goals and this being done through a fully transparent process.


The regional bodies of ILCA should follow the same pattern as World Sailing regional zoning and particularly, Europe should not be divided.

Every step should be taken to ensure a fair andequal  representation of  Laser sailors in ILCA World Council on a proportional basis . Currently the situation is not satisfying with almost Two thirds of racing and class fee payin laser sailors being in Europe and Europe being under-represented in the ILCA World council.

Full financial transparency should be endorsed by ILCA and every document made available to ILCA fee-paying Laser Sailors .

A special focus should be instituted on salary control for paid class officers and a capping limit of 120 % of , say, an average Elementary School teacher wage shoud be instituted.

No paid classofficer should have a vote right and any degree of decisional power  in the ILCA World Council or any other regional or district governing body.

Laser name and "sunburst" logo are one of the mots precious class assets as for more of forty decades it has been a trademark for cheap and exhilaratin boatig, tough but fair sailig competition on the water and excellency in sailing skills that has permeated the sailing world well beyond strict class boundaries.
Every step should be taken in the class constitution and governance to ensure both laser name and logo are retained and developped.


As a conclusion, the current crisis in the Laser class should be evaluated in the light of the 420 class history :
It was a thriving class back in the 60's and 70's in France and Southern Europe  with the original builder Lanaverre of Bordeaux manufacturing what was then a SMOD class.
It had some constructional issues (hull to flotation tanks and deck bonding was by a "shoebox" wood-reinforced joint that became increasingly unreliable as shroud and forestay / Jib cable tensions increased under the "greed for speed" racing pressure) but those were inconsequential for leisure/sailing school use and were gradually adressed to with the best of then available composite technology
A few prudent changes (mainsheet layout , Spinnaker and trapeze and Aluminium masts) were carefully introduced but with strict control of retail prices .
When the boat became fully international building licenses were granted (Poliglas, Roga , and later Lenam in Spain ,Harken Vanguard in the USA , Snapir in Israel, Honor Marine and later Rondar in GB , Nautivela in Italy Zigelmayer in Germany, Henriksens in Denmark  , Blue Blue in Poland...etc) but it was a costly move because every single builder targeted the  supposedly more profitable "racing market" and did it's best to outperform the other builders by flirting /cheating with the limits and tolerances of the measurement and construction rules of the international 420 UNIQUA class.

The class developement slowed , some say it almost ground to a halt (Lanaverre made some 40 000 420' between 1959 and 1984 and all the "craftsman builders" only cranked a further 15000 expensive and tweaked "race specs" 420's between 1980 and 2020 ...remember that, would be laser builders...

The price gap was so high that cheaper, simpler and sturdier if slightly heavier "Club 420's" were manufactuerd by Harken Vanguard for high school and universities club fleets in the USA (apparently  not paying a dollar or cent of royalties to the original designer of the 420 Christian Maury...but i may be wrong on that point)...
This sad class story (the 420 class could well have developped in the 100 000 + figures if it had been kept cheap and really one design) has very strange similarities to the developping laser crisis.

 

Sorry guys it is a bit long but maybe there's some substantial food for thought in it


 

 

 

 

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