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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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22 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

What an incomprehensible rambling bunch of shit!!

translation :

Ovi will have incompetent twits build their knock off Lasers. Between orders for their wildly popular one person month or year boats. 
They are making the outrageously high investment for the  pure joy of spending the money they make  building their low volume racing toys. 
I would buy a knockoff Laser from them 
 

 

*****
Uh? OK.  

Are you alcoholic? You’re post swing between harmlessly amusing and utterly weird.  

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I love this place. 

- There are fewer builders not more. 
- ILCAs are more expensive not less.
- Less ILCAs are being sold not more.

- There are higher fees per boat not less.

Plain simple inescapable facts.

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

I love this place. 

- There are fewer builders not more. 
- ILCAs are more expensive not less.
- Less ILCAs are being sold not more.

- There are higher fees per boat not less.

Plain simple inescapable facts.

You are so negative.

Have some more rum.

 

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I would if only those who lost would pay up on their bets!  And I am positive that is true too!

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On 5/19/2020 at 4:42 PM, AnIdiot said:

Can you substantiate any of that?  Doesn't fit my experience.. and believe me I've wandered around a LOT of boatparks full of elite (mostly Junior + Youth) sailors over the last few years.

 I think you are posting nonsense and I'm mildly curious as to why.

Yes, I have my own spreadsheet full of rake measurements from different boats.  Ask any british sailing team laser coach what tools they bring when a sailor has bought new equipment (clue - micrometer, scales, tape measure).

These are quotes from my email conversation with LPE in 2015 when I was buying a new boat.  I asked to come and pick the hull rather than just getting whatever one was next off the line, being well aware that there is huge variance between the boats and that this is what top sailors were doing.

 

me: 'm in the market for a new laser and I wanted to find out if it was possible for my to visit you to pick out a hull?    I'd be looking to do it this week on Thursday if possible and would want to take it away there and then.

 

LPE: 

Thank you for your email, I am sorry to say that we don’t let anyone pick their own lasers due to the class one design. But I would be happy to have 2-3 lasers down for you to choose from on the day. We can do a collections on the day of a new boat but we normally book customers in 3 working days in advance just in case we have run out of any stock It give us 3 days to get it in stock . I do know we are currently low on carbon tillers but we can always send it to you when the missing item comes into stock.

I can extend the London boat show offer for you which was a couple of weeks ago the deal was as follows Laser XD complete boat only £4300 normal retail £4947 saving £647 Laser Race boat only £4100 normal retail £4747 saving £647

Plus 15% off all spares ordered with the boat.

 

Me: Picking from 3 is fine - one design they may be, but I've had a few, one of which was an outlier so I know the importance of this!  Can I schedule myself in for Thursday at 1pm?  If you won't have a tiller in stock (or any of my requested spares) I don't mind being sent it/them a bit later.

 

LPE: Please see attached order, if you can look over it and make sure I have all your details correct .

I have given you a little extra discount on the spares to help save you a little more money .

Is there anything you are looking for in a hull like  weight or mast rake?

Did you want a trolley with your boat or do you have your own ?.

Me: With the hull I'm looking for a mast rake that's as forward as possible. I've got a range of measurements from various different hulls over the years, both sailed by me and by others, as well as doing some experimentation with packing the mast slot in training etc.  There's probably a limit on how far forward you want to go so I'm just looking for something that's within what I know the range to be from my sample and hopefully slightly forward in that range.

 

LPE: 

Ok I will pick the best mast rake for you . I have adjusted your order for the items please have a look at the attached order.

The boat comes with a folded sail but I will upgrade you for free to a rolled this normally is a £40 extra.

The boat package does not come with a trolley so I have added this to your order with the extra discount on it for you.

 

Original emails available to be presented in court if any accuses me of libel. ;)  I've been sailing these boats for over 10 years now, and have one of the elusive blue plaques on my trophy shelf, so I know wtf I'm talking about.

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As someone who has spoken to Chris Turner (owner of Ovington Boats) and Paolo Portligia (owner of Nautivela) directly within the last 2 days, I can assure you that both gentlemen are taking the building of ILCA dinghy's very seriously.

I have never known either of them to ever countenance "dumping" un-refined products ever on their respective markets, and I doubt seriously that either will do anything but apply best practice to the ILCA build.    And I have know both men for 20+ years!

I have also spoken to John Higham (Element6) in the last 2 weeks and , Higham/Pom Green, will have exactly the same philosophy  as Chris/Paolo.

Chris Caldecoat (PSA) I have spoken to today (last 12 hrs) He rarely reads SA, (he looked it up while I was speaking with him) and the BS/dribble that is being professed as gospel astounds him.      (One of the reasons he dose not bother with it)

To the best of his knowledge ILCA take $USD65/hull and $USD10 levy/sail.     (WS also take about $65/hull, but nothing per sail)   PSA & PSJ as legacy builders get some of the ILCA $65 hull plaque, but less than 1/2 at best.     From someone who is aware of what a 29er and 49er cost WRT the ICA/WS hull plaque, those number seem very probable,   and the Sail levy is is very reasonable.   As someone who see the work the ICA's and WS do, the fee's are also very reasonable!

Given what ILCA dose with that $10/sail & $65/hull (go do the maths, it's an extraordinarily simple sum) it would be a very brave person to challenge the expenses.    It's not a lot of money!

Also to the best of my knowledge, PSA are selling every boat they can make, (they are presently shut) but they are not planning to dominate the world, they are not even planning to make a 1/4er or a 1/3rd the worlds production.   It's just not logical to make that number of boats in Australia and ship them.

Logistics kills that business model and the prices that you are occasionally quoting bear that to be true.

The boats that PSA are selling into places like the USA, Asia and Europe other than those that are being sold directly after events this year are all being sold via Dealers and their Dealer price has not altered for some time.

Also as someone who is presently importing material from outside Australia into Australia, right now, I can attest to the extraordinary hick in prices that even sea-freight is attracting, so my guess is the bulk of the "gouging" you referring to is due to Covid-19 and to Dealers trying to make ends meet.

Based on the conversation I have had in the last few days, I expect the first ILCA out of Ovington within the month, Nautivela and Zou will be more like 2 months, Element6 will also be 2-3 months.     I hear Devoiti has a mould, but beyond that, I don't have a direct connection with him.

Ziggy in BA, I can find out, but I have other fishes to fry right now, Ziggy is also a very capable and efficient builder, he has build 29ers for me for 20+ years.

ZIM/Steve Perry buys a extraordinary large number of boats from ZOU (class legal C420's) so that seem logical, as dose the tariff/freight rates between Newcastle and Huston!

I would settle petals, and "put up or shut up".   

What I have put up I believe to be true, have every reason to believe are true, base on the conversations I have quoted above, and basic logic would suggest they are at or very close to "the money"!!!!!!!!!     Pun absolutely intended!

                            jB

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Would you show us your spreadsheets? 

No.  I can tell you that the range is 5cm and most are within 2cm of the average though.  LPE have a production sheet that has all the rakes and weights on it, they can tell you what the measurements are for any hull they produced.  They can't tell you if the foils line up or if the deck is actually in the middle of the hull though, they don't measure that.

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37 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

No.  I can tell you that the range is 5cm and most are within 2cm of the average though.  

Nothing new here and within class measurement tolerances.  When Vanguard was building in the US the top guys would go and check rake on the boats they were buying.  I've measured every used boat I've bought over the past 20 years.  All slightly different.  Only one did I notice a difference on sailing upwind in wind under 10knots and it had a max rake measurement.  Could seriously point 3-5 degrees higher than others with no loss of speed.  It was a slug off the Downwind.  Maturity and experience has far more affected my results over the past 20 years than mast rake.  

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5 hours ago, JulianB said:

As someone who has spoken to Chris Turner (owner of Ovington Boats) and Paolo Portligia (owner of Nautivela) directly within the last 2 days, I can assure you that both gentlemen are taking the building of ILCA dinghy's very seriously.

I have never known either of them to ever countenance "dumping" un-refined products ever on their respective markets, and I doubt seriously that either will do anything but apply best practice to the ILCA build.    And I have know both men for 20+ years!

I have also spoken to John Higham (Element6) in the last 2 weeks and , Higham/Pom Green, will have exactly the same philosophy  as Chris/Paolo.

Chris Caldecoat (PSA) I have spoken to today (last 12 hrs) He rarely reads SA, (he looked it up while I was speaking with him) and the BS/dribble that is being professed as gospel astounds him.      (One of the reasons he dose not bother with it)

To the best of his knowledge ILCA take $USD65/hull and $USD10 levy/sail.     (WS also take about $65/hull, but nothing per sail)   PSA & PSJ as legacy builders get some of the ILCA $65 hull plaque, but less than 1/2 at best.     From someone who is aware of what a 29er and 49er cost WRT the ICA/WS hull plaque, those number seem very probable,   and the Sail levy is is very reasonable.   As someone who see the work the ICA's and WS do, the fee's are also very reasonable!

Given what ILCA dose with that $10/sail & $65/hull (go do the maths, it's an extraordinarily simple sum) it would be a very brave person to challenge the expenses.    It's not a lot of money!

Also to the best of my knowledge, PSA are selling every boat they can make, (they are presently shut) but they are not planning to dominate the world, they are not even planning to make a 1/4er or a 1/3rd the worlds production.   It's just not logical to make that number of boats in Australia and ship them.

Logistics kills that business model and the prices that you are occasionally quoting bear that to be true.

The boats that PSA are selling into places like the USA, Asia and Europe other than those that are being sold directly after events this year are all being sold via Dealers and their Dealer price has not altered for some time.

Also as someone who is presently importing material from outside Australia into Australia, right now, I can attest to the extraordinary hick in prices that even sea-freight is attracting, so my guess is the bulk of the "gouging" you referring to is due to Covid-19 and to Dealers trying to make ends meet.

Based on the conversation I have had in the last few days, I expect the first ILCA out of Ovington within the month, Nautivela and Zou will be more like 2 months, Element6 will also be 2-3 months.     I hear Devoiti has a mould, but beyond that, I don't have a direct connection with him.

Ziggy in BA, I can find out, but I have other fishes to fry right now, Ziggy is also a very capable and efficient builder, he has build 29ers for me for 20+ years.

ZIM/Steve Perry buys a extraordinary large number of boats from ZOU (class legal C420's) so that seem logical, as dose the tariff/freight rates between Newcastle and Huston!

I would settle petals, and "put up or shut up".   

What I have put up I believe to be true, have every reason to believe are true, base on the conversations I have quoted above, and basic logic would suggest they are at or very close to "the money"!!!!!!!!!     Pun absolutely intended!

                            jB

This all looks great, Julian - especially on the new builder. The following chart shows the revenue generated by ILCA for plaques and sail stickers:

image.png.bd6bf38b4b876f320f461bbb6f37a6ea.png

And here are the boats built for the corresponding years (from ILCA):

2017      212236 – 214962 (2726)
2018      214963 – 216182 (1292)
2019      216183 – 217579 (1396)

So for plaque fees, that's $89/boat for 2017, $84/boat for 2018 and $93 for 2019. Variances can be explained, as boats built one year may not be sold until the next, and 2019 was a projection.  Sail button fees are trickier because they aren't just sold with new boats. However I am told the "red button" sails are ~$10 and the "orange button" sails are ~$20 (to defray development costs of the Mk 2).

I also received some information from ILCA on going forward fees. There will be a "Kirby fee" of $100 per hull which will be collected from all the builders - which I am told that, depending on the builder, is less than before. Also, there will be a fee for QR stickers that will be applied to all boats and parts, like this:

image.png.c5d4d9e1d545966cea30a08a20ec6d62.png

This sticker will confirm things like the manufacturer, date of manufacture and so forth. So the idea is that when there is measurement at regattas these get scanned to ensure compliance. This is all part of the overall need for stricter controls which goes hand in hand with other measurement tightening - including more frequent visits to facilities etc.. Development is taking some time in finding stickers that robust, but apparently a solution has been found. Note the legacy builder (PSA and PSJ) will get a cut of the QR sticker fee per boat. This is the price to pay for them allowing unrestricted completion under alternate brand names. 

I was assured the total amount of fees are not driving the price of the boat and nobody is getting rich. As an Olympic boat, compliance is key. 

The final tally for fees will be published, however "the final skirmishes need to be dealt with".

In the meantime, guessing at fees and guessing at boat prices from multiple builders is a mug's game. But we do know a few things:

1) There will be more builders than before.

2) Builders will be under closer scrutiny.

3) For those who find this distasteful/unacceptable, and money is a main driver in your purchase, there is the LP Laser. 

 

image.png

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Nothing new here and within class measurement tolerances.  When Vanguard was building in the US the top guys would go and check rake on the boats they were buying.  I've measured every used boat I've bought over the past 20 years.  All slightly different.  Only one did I notice a difference on sailing upwind in wind under 10knots and it had a max rake measurement.  Could seriously point 3-5 degrees higher than others with no loss of speed.  It was a slug off the Downwind.  Maturity and experience has far more affected my results over the past 20 years than mast rake.  

I think you've missed the fact that this was in response to someone (blatantecho) claiming :

 

PSA was the hot stuff, because you could chose your rake, hull and deck weights. They didn't care about any of that.  Plus they were competing with LP.  LP was (and is) a total mess... but to their only credit, they built VERY good boats, consistently, and didn't cheat on them.  PSA, as it's been well documented, was happy to fudge things here and there.  It's just funny when they got caught, the class said 'uhm, yeah, let's do that too'  How's that for stupid irony in a 'One Design'

 

You say that it's common knowledge that there's significant variability boat to boat, but it's not.  This guy thinks that it's only PSA who let you choose your boat according to the measurements you want and that it's cheating.   I haven't even got onto the fact that every LP boat I've bought has fallen to bits very rapidly and shown the photos of them.

I agree that if you're miles off "perfect" when it comes to upwind technique, rake makes no difference.  If you're looking for the last couple of % it makes a massive difference though. Its absolutely critical you don't end up with a donkey.  The people who are against FRAND claim that having more builders is a bad thing because you'll no longer be able to just pick up any boat and be competitive and will have to start caring about equipment.  Total horse shit, that has never been the case even between two boats that were both built by LPE on the same day!!

Also mast rake forwards doesn't make the boat slow downwind... that was all you ;)

 

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3 hours ago, NotAnIdiot said:

I think you've missed the fact that this was in response to someone (blatantecho) claiming :

 

PSA was the hot stuff, because you could chose your rake, hull and deck weights. They didn't care about any of that.  Plus they were competing with LP.  LP was (and is) a total mess... but to their only credit, they built VERY good boats, consistently, and didn't cheat on them.  PSA, as it's been well documented, was happy to fudge things here and there.  It's just funny when they got caught, the class said 'uhm, yeah, let's do that too'  How's that for stupid irony in a 'One Design'

 

You say that it's common knowledge that there's significant variability boat to boat, but it's not.  This guy thinks that it's only PSA who let you choose your boat according to the measurements you want and that it's cheating.   I haven't even got onto the fact that every LP boat I've bought has fallen to bits very rapidly and shown the photos of them.

I agree that if you're miles off "perfect" when it comes to upwind technique, rake makes no difference.  If you're looking for the last couple of % it makes a massive difference though. Its absolutely critical you don't end up with a donkey.  The people who are against FRAND claim that having more builders is a bad thing because you'll no longer be able to just pick up any boat and be competitive and will have to start caring about equipment.  Total horse shit, that has never been the case even between two boats that were both built by LPE on the same day!!

Also mast rake forwards doesn't make the boat slow downwind... that was all you ;)

 

Even thought I'm on the heavy side for the boat I'm not "Miles off" on anything.  Just ask Lucas Sawin, Chase Carraway or Stefano Peschiera.  My quick upwind boat had a rake of 149" US Inches from top of std rig bottom section to the top of the stern rail, (might have been 148.5" can't remember) and yep that was slow DW compared to my current boat at 150".  I have also improved my DW technique since then as well. A Caberete clinic and some coaching from Stefano recently has paid nice dividends.

I never said "common knowledge" I just said "nothing new".  As long as the boat is built within the measurement tolerance the average sailor will be fine.  That .5 to 1" difference isn't going to take them from the average mid-fleet finish, (in your average fleet/not a GP event level fleet) to the front.  

D12 rev Champ IMG_0201.jpg

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4 hours ago, Bill5 said:

1) There will be more builders than before.

2) Builders will be under closer scrutiny.

 

You folks have been saying this for almost 500 days now.  :D

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

You folks have been saying this for almost 500 days now.  :D

That doesn't make the comments non-factual!

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On 5/23/2020 at 9:30 PM, Wavedancer II said:

Interesting development: LP lowered the pricing of their 'Club' Lasers by a LOT:

Less than four grand for the basic version and a bit over four ($4190) for the XD version

In addition, an additional 10% off for the Spring sale

https://www.laserperformance.us/collections/laser-5

Would you really be missing that ISAF sticker?

 

 

It looks like someone changed their mind again. The quoted price of a Laser on LP's website went up again to $4995 for the race edition and to $5500 for the XD with the composite upper.

$4190 was too good to me true.

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22 minutes ago, flyhigh said:

It looks like someone changed their mind again. The quoted price of a Laser on LP's website went up again to $4995 for the race edition and to $5500 for the XD with the composite upper.

$4190 was too good to me true.

For a while the price of a Laser was less than the price of a Sunfish.

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38 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

If you didn’t mean what you wrote, that doesn't change what you wrote. 
Only you can stop misrepresenting yourself. 

I meant exactly what I wrote. I just didn’t write what you said I did.  It’s there in black and white.  How’s you’re head this morning?  In fact, kill two birds with one stone - give the rum to Wess. 

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13 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I meant exactly what I wrote. I just didn’t write what you said I did.  It’s there in black and white.  How’s you’re head this morning?  In fact, kill two birds with one stone - give the rum to Wess. 

Thank you.  I love rum.  And Lasers.  But not ILCAs.  Oh, and Gouv  didn't take me up on the rum bet.  T'was Robbie and Tracy and one other person I canntt remember. 

I think I do need to drink a lot more alcohol.  Have to sterilize before I  head into covid hotspot this weekend.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Bill5 said:

That doesn't make the comments non-factual!

 

March 28 2019 to May 28 2020 is just under 430 days or 14 months 

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Keep going Firefly. You are at least half the reason I keep posting LOL. Well that and the rum that Robbie and Tracy owes me. But mostly to piss you off. Just canntt help myself! :P

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14 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Even thought I'm on the heavy side for the boat I'm not "Miles off" on anything.  Just ask Lucas Sawin, Chase Carraway or Stefano Peschiera.  My quick upwind boat had a rake of 149" US Inches from top of std rig bottom section to the top of the stern rail, (might have been 148.5" can't remember) and yep that was slow DW compared to my current boat at 150".  I have also improved my DW technique since then as well. A Caberete clinic and some coaching from Stefano recently has paid nice dividends.

I never said "common knowledge" I just said "nothing new".  As long as the boat is built within the measurement tolerance the average sailor will be fine.  That .5 to 1" difference isn't going to take them from the average mid-fleet finish, (in your average fleet/not a GP event level fleet) to the front.  

D12 rev Champ IMG_0201.jpg

I didn't say you were miles off anything or levelling any other criticism at your sailing - I said that sailors who are not looking for the last few % of performance probably won't notice a rake difference, and that rake doesn't make any difference to downwind speed (why would it?).

I disagree that this means that these differences (which are allegedly within tolerance - I've never seen the construction manual) don't matter.  The original post I was responding to was claiming that PSA are a bunch of assholes because they pick out a good boat for you, and LPE aren't.  I was providing evidence that that was horse shit and that LPE do the exact same thing.  I think we seem to agree on this point.

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3 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

I said that sailors who are not looking for the last few % of performance probably won't notice a rake difference, and that rake doesn't make any difference to downwind speed (why would it?).

If you do not understand why the mast being forward a bit downwind is quicker, you need to do some homework.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Why the hell did you write the post saying you would buy boats built by incompetent beginners if you were to buy a knock off Laser?? 
Now you are whining because I keep asking why and you keep trying to act as though you never wrote the post. 
 

 

He didn't: he wrote a post that said very clearly that he thought Ovi might build the boats with less experienced staff (not "incompetent") before they were tasked to higher precision work, also that they might carry out Laser builds when demand for other boats was down and furthermore that if he was ever in the market for a Laser, he would buy an Ovi-built one... ie not a "knock-off" and demonstrating his faith in their product.

 You "translated" this into something like the text above, which completely misrepresents him... it's hardly surprising that he's a bit pissed off about that.

 Are you trolling?

Cheers,

               W.

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50 minutes ago, astro said:

If you do not understand why the mast being forward a bit downwind is quicker, you need to do some homework.

Really?  With an un-stayed rig like the laser, with the exact dynamics that it has due to the position of the rig and foils in the boat?  You'll have to explain...

Or are you just repeating the completely generic "back is quicker upwind, forward is quicker downwind" knowledge without considering what it actually means and why?

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1 hour ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Really?  With an un-stayed rig like the laser, with the exact dynamics that it has due to the position of the rig and foils in the boat?  You'll have to explain...

Or are you just repeating the completely generic "back is quicker upwind, forward is quicker downwind" knowledge without considering what it actually means and why?

You mean how the mast rake can move the Center of Effort and change the loads between the two foils going to windward?  How if it's too far back it can load up the rudder and induce weather helm and much slow?  It can vary between boats ans some people have a preference.  Doesn't matter at the top end of the sport because you have to take what you get.  Shifting your weight does the same thing anyway.

Still if you have two Lasers with different mast rakes and want to race downwind ... I'll take the one with the mast tip more forward. 

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1 hour ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Really?  With an un-stayed rig like the laser, with the exact dynamics that it has due to the position of the rig and foils in the boat?  You'll have to explain...

Or are you just repeating the completely generic "back is quicker upwind, forward is quicker downwind" knowledge without considering what it actually means and why?

I would really like to understand why "forward is quicker downwind."

Is that true in a Laser? Why, or why not?


 

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3 minutes ago, astro said:

You mean how the mast rake can move the Center of Effort and change the loads between the two foils going to windward?  How if it's too far back it can load up the rudder and induce weather helm and much slow?  It can vary between boats ans some people have a preference.  Doesn't matter at the top end of the sport because you have to take what you get.  Shifting your weight does the same thing anyway.

Still if you have two Lasers with different mast rakes and want to race downwind ... I'll take the one with the mast tip more forward. 

Yeah you still haven't explained why.  Where's the centre of effort of the rig on a run?  How does the mast tip being more forward change it in a meaningful way?

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I would really like to understand why "forward is quicker downwind."

Is that true in a Laser? Why, or why not?


 

It's not.  The centre of effort of the rig relative to your foils is dictated by your sheeting and your heel.  The position of the mast is completely irrelevant compared to those.

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27 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Yeah you still haven't explained why.  Where's the centre of effort of the rig on a run?  How does the mast tip being more forward change it in a meaningful way?

One example: In a gust downwind, a mast further forward at the tip has the Centre of Force further forward relative to the main foil.  That means it tends to Lee helm a poofteeth more, going down with the gusts more naturally without washing speed off with the rudder.

Edit: the trade off is that the reverse may apply upwind and there is nothing like rounding the top mark first.  Classes that can adjust rake with backstay tension or forestay adjustment can play with those.  Lasers cannot.  But given that there may be some variation out of the factory, like there is with boat weight, some may have a preference depending on their body weight.

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23 minutes ago, astro said:

One example: In a gust downwind, a mast further forward at the tip has the Centre of Force further forward relative to the main foil.  That means it tends to Lee helm a poofteeth more, going down with the gusts more naturally without washing speed off with the rudder.

Edit: the trade off is that the reverse may apply upwind and there is nothing like rounding the top mark first.

And how much do you have to change the heel of the boat to have exactly the same effect? An almost imperceptible amount.

In addition, if you have the boat trimmed with the centre of effort over the centerline, moving it forward or aft makes no difference to the moment it exerts when the boat is sailing away from the wind.

You've also added that mast forwards makes you slower upwind, which is the opposite of reality.

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11 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

You've also added that mast forwards makes you slower upwind, which is the opposite of reality.

But I thought you said  "The position of the mast is completely irrelevant ..."

tenor.gif?itemid=10115525

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Hi @Firefly-DC - You still canntt escape that ILCA said they would have new builders including in NA soon over 400 days ago.  Coming up on 500.  What happened?  Don't be scared to type a response; I promise not to down vote you. Not my style.  Are you incapable of defending ILCA?  Hugs and kisses!

Where is our NA ILCA builder that ILCA promised @Firefly-DC?

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

I would really like to understand why "forward is quicker downwind."

Is that true in a Laser? Why, or why not?


 

Maybe check with a Star sailor

image.png.037d184f9c8eed20bc66b7e29e0c6f28.png

 

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

Keep going Firefly. You are at least half the reason I keep posting LOL. Well that and the rum that Robbie and Tracy owes me. But mostly to piss you off. Just canntt help myself! :P

I will.  Please do continue, it let's everyone see what a petty, bitter old man you are.  When did you first notice that the world has passed you by?

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22 minutes ago, Firefly-DC said:

I will.  Please do continue, it let's everyone see what a petty, bitter old man you are.  When did you first notice that the world has passed you by?

Outstanding.

While its all relative I am old.  Not sure about the petty thing or how a world would pass one by so I have to admit I didn't notice if it did.  But I don't seem to floating in space so I am going to go with... it didn't.  In fact, overall, I would say I am pretty happy with the world and my place in it.  But all of that seems neither here or there relative to the topic at hand. 

You appear unhappy about my views re ILCA and Laser and while I am sorry about that - OK I am not really sorry I admit I find it kinda funny - I canntt understand why truth bothers you so or why you still haven't answered...

   * Where is our NA ILCA builder that ILCA promised?

ILCA said it was Zim NA.  Robbie even said they had paid for molds until he was challenged and ultimately had to correct himself.  Another (actually multiple) US builders that ILCA had listed didn't even go as far as Zim NA before realizing just how bad the deal was and withdrawing/electing not to proceed. So what up with that?  How come nobody wants to build ILCAs in USA (or NA if you prefer)?

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Maybe check with a Star sailor

image.png.037d184f9c8eed20bc66b7e29e0c6f28.png

 

That's a lead dragger. Ever sailed old school windsurfer directly downwind? Where does the mast tip go? Hint - windsurfer goes straight whan all forces are in balance,

ws-dw.png

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29 minutes ago, Wess said:

Outstanding.

While its all relative I am old.  Not sure about the petty thing or how a world would pass one by so I have to admit I didn't notice if it did.  But I don't seem to floating in space so I am going to go with... it didn't.  In fact, overall, I would say I am pretty happy with the world and my place in it.  But all of that seems neither here or there relative to the topic at hand. 

You appear unhappy about my views re ILCA and Laser and while I am sorry about that - OK I am not really sorry I admit I find it kinda funny - I canntt understand why truth bothers you so or why you still haven't answered...

   * Where is our NA ILCA builder that ILCA promised?

ILCA said it was Zim NA.  Robbie even said they had paid for molds until he was challenged and ultimately had to correct himself.  Another (actually multiple) US builders that ILCA had listed didn't even go as far as Zim NA before realizing just how bad the deal was and withdrawing/electing not to proceed. So what up with that?  How come nobody wants to build ILCAs in USA (or NA if you prefer)?

Quick fact check here. I am trying to find where ILCA promised a NA builder. This was their original comment on builder selection:

"All new builder applications were submitted on a confidential basis, so ILCA cannot publish the names of the potential builders at this time. However, ILCA can reveal that, of the 18 builders invited to proceed with the new builder approval process, there are five from Europe, five from Asia, four from North America, three from South America and one from Oceania." 

Wess - is there an announcement I missed? Happy to back down if something exists. 

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17 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Quick fact check here. I am trying to find where ILCA promised a NA builder. This was their original comment on builder selection:

"All new builder applications were submitted on a confidential basis, so ILCA cannot publish the names of the potential builders at this time. However, ILCA can reveal that, of the 18 builders invited to proceed with the new builder approval process, there are five from Europe, five from Asia, four from North America, three from South America and one from Oceania." 

Wess - is there an announcement I missed? Happy to back down if something exists. 

Mate, ILCA didn't promise a NA builder... but it sure did heavily imply it.

Not just to sailors, but to people in the supply chain in NA who were told:  'LP sucks, we're going to fix your supply problems and there will be a solid builder in the US supporting the class'

That, obviously, hasn't happened, and, while not certain it never will, it's not looking too likely.


It's not a good situation.
The class, is (at least for now), still based in the US.
Kind of strange to not have a builder in the host country, and very signifiant sailing market, for what is supposed to be an Olympic class boat for everyone.


ILCA tripped on its dick here, and now we have two boats that are pretty similar (Laser and ILCA), but certainly not one design.
And we have a divided class (well, two classes now), and inside each of these two classes - we have factions pushing for complete carbon rigs with new sail plans.

So, we took the Laser, and to keep it in the Olympics (as 99.999% of Laser sailors gave two shits about that).
And now, we basically have four groups, all fighting against each other... instead of one.

 

Reminds me of the infamous words of one President of the United States after invading Iraq for what turned out to be very  faulty intelligence:
'Mission Accomplished!'

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Bill - Seriously?  That is what you are going with?  Talk about parsing word and nit picking but OK... what happened to the NA builder that ILCA told us about?

But before you continue down this path might I suggest you carefully review all of class leadership's posts on this thread as well as ILCA documents posted on their site or otherwise in the public domain.  Frankly it would be better to admit they were wrong than to have to defend everything they have said about NA builders.  You inadvertently would be suggesting they misled folks on this point and much as I am not a fan of current leadership even I don't think they did that on this point.

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If the resin fumes hadn’t gone to your head you’d know that I am not a fan of ILCAs actions and fear they have acted unconstitutionally. And still you troll and misrepresent. 
Has it occurred to you that less experienced staff get training and supervision and are not left unattended?    Would you rather their first attempt was an I14? 
For someone in the business your ignorance is staggering. Perhaps it explains the poor state of dinghy sailing in the US. 

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8 hours ago, NotAnIdiot said:

 

I didn't say you were miles off anything or levelling any other criticism at your sailing - I said that sailors who are not looking for the last few % of performance probably won't notice a rake difference, and that rake doesn't make any difference to downwind speed (why would it?).

I disagree that this means that these differences (which are allegedly within tolerance - I've never seen the construction manual) don't matter.  The original post I was responding to was claiming that PSA are a bunch of assholes because they pick out a good boat for you, and LPE aren't.  I was providing evidence that that was horse shit and that LPE do the exact same thing.  I think we seem to agree on this point.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.  I would suggest though that more aft rake makes for less forward mast position on the DW, (as we're dealing with fixed step positions and that more forward mast position on the DW is faster than less, (to a point).

Oh- I just saw the DW thing already discussed enough.  Please ignore mine as it's been discussed enough.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Robbie even said they had paid for molds until he was challenged and ultimately had to correct himself. 

ZIM reps came to our Regional Body, (SAYRA) annual convention in late January.  They stood up in a meeting and announced to the crowd they were going to be building Lasers in NA again.  (most of those guys are from Vanguard).  I believed them....Now- I don't think ILCA leadership ever "promised" new builders to be anyone or anywhere specific.  I know they had a "wish list" on the locations and I'd bet they were hoping ZIM would be one of them.

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2 hours ago, Firefly-DC said:

I will.  Please do continue, it let's everyone see what a petty, bitter old man you are.  When did you first notice that the world has passed you by?

Hey Firefly.  Is that an old Ranger Fun 23 in your profile pic?

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4 hours ago, astro said:

But I thought you said  "The position of the mast is completely irrelevant ..."

tenor.gif?itemid=10115525

No, what I actually said:

In addition, if you have the boat trimmed with the centre of effort over the centerline, moving it forward or aft makes no difference to the moment it exerts when the boat is sailing away from the wind.

If you don't understand that the rig and the center of effort is in a completely different place and creating a force at a different angle when going upwind vs downwind, and that the trim/tuning of the rig is completely different as well, I don't think there's much point discussing this with you.

The whole point of this discussion was that rake matters.  It's just not in the way that you think it does.  It makes no odds to me if you want to maintain your incorrect understanding.  Crack on sir!

...and it's off topic for this thread anyway, not that anyone seems to care about that kind of thing here.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

Bill - Seriously?  That is what you are going with?  Talk about parsing word and nit picking but OK... what happened to the NA builder that ILCA told us about?

But before you continue down this path might I suggest you carefully review all of class leadership's posts on this thread as well as ILCA documents posted on their site or otherwise in the public domain.  Frankly it would be better to admit they were wrong than to have to defend everything they have said about NA builders.  You inadvertently would be suggesting they misled folks on this point and much as I am not a fan of current leadership even I don't think they did that on this point.

"...carefully review all of class leadership's posts on this thread as well as ILCA documents posted on their site or otherwise in the public domain." Ya, right. That sounds like a lot of fun.  But to quote someone (you) "Pics or it didn't happen". And, the ball is actually in your court to prove your claim. You can sit on your trimaran over the weekend and dig up the evidence. :)

I do have a question for you and @BlatantEcho. If you had sent out the tender on the ILCA builder opportunity, and four NA builders made it to the second stage, would you not have been bullish about the likelihood of an approved NA builder? Would you not have shared your pleasure in having four NA builders on the list? Try to answer this question without the tarnish of knowing the outcome - although I understand the door isn't totally closed for Zim - although chances are slim (note the rhyme). 

I must admit this is all getting very boring. I am comforted by the fact I belong to a great club with an avid and active Laser fleet (no ILCA's on board just yet). The boat I have has plenty of tread on the tire and I am sure if and when I replace it, it will be a lightly-used boat. So all of this really has zero impact on me. Yet I am strangely drawn to it like a cat on a couch...

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1 hour ago, ojfd said:

That's a lead dragger. Ever sailed old school windsurfer directly downwind? Where does the mast tip go? Hint - windsurfer goes straight whan all forces are in balance,

ws-dw.png

I honestly don't know the answer, I just  thought it might be worthwhile hearing from a class that does rake their mast so far forward. Concerning the windsurfer, I haven't windsurfed much, but I am trying to think of how a sailor, in a decent breeze, going dead downwind like the photo above, can rake the rig forward without a) nose-diving and/or b) going ass over teakettle.

18 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

It's a completely different boat.  Should we ask the 49er sailors what works for them too?

If they raked their mast forward going downwind it would be worth asking. As I said above, I have no idea what the answer is. I thought understanding the Star point of view may be of value. Personally, I don't really give fuck. My downwind success (or lack thereof) in a Laser is directly related to finding the pressure and doing a decent job in the waves. 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

ZIM reps came to our Regional Body, (SAYRA) annual convention in late January.  They stood up in a meeting and announced to the crowd they were going to be building Lasers in NA again.  (most of those guys are from Vanguard).  I believed them....Now- I don't think ILCA leadership ever "promised" new builders to be anyone or anywhere specific.  I know they had a "wish list" on the locations and I'd bet they were hoping ZIM would be one of them.

New ILCA boats are in stock on both the east and west coast. Same with most parts. Those complaining can go buy a new standard ILCA  boat today and move on with their lives.

 

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Re the mast position.  Having the mast forward definitely helps in the laser to go down wind. My wife is a much better sailer than me , always quicker than me up and down wind what ever class we have sailed . The only time I was quicker than her down wind  was when I had a laser with a lot of wear at the front of the mast step .

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

If we had a reliable manufacturer of toys who enthusiastically supported the racing game, it wouldn’t be necessary to entertain ourselves  by  posting silly shit in this endless thread. 
    I am gonna go rig my AERO and enjoy some fabulous breeze. 


Sail it. Live it. Love it.
 

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21 minutes ago, Xeon said:

Re the mast position.  Having the mast forward definitely helps in the laser to go down wind. My wife is a much better sailer than me , always quicker than me up and down wind what ever class we have sailed . The only time I was quicker than her down wind  was when I had a laser with a lot of wear at the front of the mast step .

Is it legal to sand down the front of the ILCA mast step to achieve the same effect?

Asking for a friend.

 

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15 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Is it legal to sand down the front of the ILCA mast step to achieve the same effect?

Asking for a friend.

 

Read  "ILCA By-Law 1: Rules, PART ONE"

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20 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

One thing I have figured out is that if everyone who posted here actually went out and sailed a Laser the sport would be a lot better off.


The ex-Laser sailors of the world far outnumber currently active Laser sailors.

That's one good thing about the Laser class. It got a lot of people into other classes.
 

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45 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

One thing I have figured out is that if everyone who posted here actually went out and sailed a Laser the sport would be a lot better off.

From what I can tell, most of the people posting on here don't sail Lasers. Rather, they are Laser commentators. 

19 minutes ago, tillerman said:


The ex-Laser sailors of the world far outnumber currently active Laser sailors.

That's one good thing about the Laser class. It got a lot of people into other classes.
 

I agree - I think it is probably safe to say that the Laser class has developed more dinghy racers than any other class, save the Opti.

But wait, I think you are taking a shot at the Laser! Tsk tsk, TilleRSman. After all those pro-Laser years. But your comment is misleading trickery! Name a dinghy more than 20 years old that has more active sailors than ex-sailors. It's liking pointing out there are more ex-rum drinkers than current ones. Duh.

Say what you like (and you know this), but over its history the Laser has done more for dinghy racing than any other class (acknowledging an Opti argument). Even more than the Aero (which looks to be a lovely boat). For those who think the Laser/ILCA is done (and I am not one of those), remember it is better to be a has been than a never was. But it lives on.

Oh - btw - I see RS has dropped their advertising on DA. A Quebec-based retailer has taken over. I guess RS weren't seeing many DA folks ordering boats/gear. 

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Is it legal to sand down the front of the ILCA mast step to achieve the same effect?

Asking for a friend.

 

Letting your outhaul off a bit more will have exactly the same effect and is far less effort ;)

You should sand down the back too because back is faster upwind apparently.

Good luck to you all, can't say I didn't try!

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22 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

From what I can tell, most of the people posting on here don't sail Lasers. Rather, they are Laser commentators. 

I agree - I think it is probably safe to say that the Laser class has developed more dinghy racers than any other class, save the Opti.

That's what I was trying to say.

But wait, I think you are taking a shot at the Laser! Tsk tsk, TilleRSman. After all those pro-Laser years.

Well maybe a little bit. My post was deliberately ambiguous. 

But your comment is misleading trickery! Name a dinghy more than 20 years old that has more active sailors than ex-sailors. It's liking pointing out there are more ex-rum drinkers than current ones. Duh.

You are right again. It's the natural way of the world. Most people sails a boat for a few years and them move on. I sailed  a Laser for 35 years. Don't I get any credit for that?
 

Say what you like (and you know this), but over its history the Laser has done more for dinghy racing than any other class (acknowledging an Opti argument).

I agree

Even more than the Aero (which looks to be a lovely boat).

It is.

For those who think the Laser/ILCA is done (and I am not one of those), remember it is better to be a has been than a never was. But it lives on.

I admit I am a Laser has been. But I live on.

Oh - btw - I see RS has dropped their advertising on DA. A Quebec-based retailer has taken over. I guess RS weren't seeing many DA folks ordering boats/gear. 

Yes, I saw that. It was a real pleasure to log on to DA and see a photo pf my buddy sailing his RS Aero. I guess RS are focusing their ad dollars somewhere else after a couple of years of planting subliminal cravings for the RS Aero in all the sailors who come to DA.

 

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52 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Letting your outhaul off a bit more will have exactly the same effect and is far less effort ;)

You should sand down the back too because back is faster upwind apparently.

Good luck to you all, can't say I didn't try!

I am sure you know much more about sailing than me and what you say could be correct , but it’s not less effort because the mast pot shape/ position happens with out any effort other than letting the kicker off which you are doing anyway . 

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Hey @Firefly-DC -  you still didn’t answer. What happened to the NA builder they told us about? Canntt you find a way to defend ILCA? Even in Boston this is still fun!

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Hey @Firefly-DC -  you still didn’t answer. What happened to the NA builder they told us about? Canntt you find a way to defend ILCA? Even in Boston this is still fun!

7367 7373

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Oh my gosh. I am sorry. I should not have interrupted. Please accept my most sincere apology. That should be Canadian enough for you…

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Hey @Firefly-DC -  you still didn’t answer. What happened to the NA builder they told us about? Canntt you find a way to defend ILCA? Even in Boston this is still fun!

hey wess tell us about the hidden fees, receipts or they aren't real

 

 

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I love it.

The Laser has been and the new knockoffs will be enforced as difficult to build archaic constitution insuring a relatively high priced product with a short term competitive life. 
 

Virtually  every Laser  manufacturer has  build junk until the company had a sufficient number of long term employees on hand to solve all the “damned little annoying problems” related to building a boat the wrong way with the wrong materials.,

Interesting. 

How long does it take a new builder to get to the point where they can deliver top quality Lasers consistently? Months? Years?

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13 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Interesting. 

How long does it take a new builder to get to the point where they can deliver top quality Lasers consistently? Months? Years?

I would think a highly-experienced, quality manufacturer with skilled people, like Ovington, will figure it out pretty quickly. They have a brand to protect.

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9 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I would think a highly-experienced, quality manufacturer with skilled people, like Ovington, will figure it out pretty quickly. They have a brand to protect.


Would you buy the first ILCA off the production line from a new builder?

How long is "pretty quickly?" 

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6 minutes ago, tillerman said:


Would you buy the first ILCA off the production line from a new builder?

How long is "pretty quickly?" 

Most competent builders will do a small run to work out the details before full production. So yes once they start production. 

A quality shop would have no issue setting this up quickly. 

 

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21 minutes ago, tillerman said:


Would you buy the first ILCA off the production line from a new builder?

How long is "pretty quickly?" 

I would buy the first boat Ovington was going to sell. This place has a need for pinning people down on time estimates in the hope they will err. Tell you what. I am going to send Ovington an email and ask questions - so if anybody wants to pile on, do so, and I will ask them all at once. 

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I doubt they will get the receptionist's son and the kid that sweeps the floor to lay them up...

 

image.png.4f4eaf9f1e47f0467af9d4af2d459136.png

Edited by Bill5
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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Most competent builders will do a small run to work out the details before full production. So yes once they start production. 

A quality shop would have no issue setting this up quickly. 

 

That's good to know.

I see that the the ILCA's approval process also requires the potential new builders to produce 10 pre-production ILCAs to prove to the ILCA that they can do the job.

 

Appendix A3 – Pre-Production Approval
If the applicant has been successful with their formal application, they will be invited to proceed to the pre-production approval process and be issued with full details of the IBM. 

This will require purchase by the applicant of the necessary moulds and equipment produced from the master plugs, preliminary training of staff by the existing builders nominated representatives on the IBM requirements and techniques and then construction of 10 pre-production boats to prove to the ILCA and WS technical staff that the builder is capable of meeting all the requirements of the IBM.

 

 

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7 hours ago, tillerman said:

Interesting. 

How long does it take a new builder to get to the point where they can deliver top quality Lasers consistently? Months? Years?

Pearson  Yachts was one of the finest most respected boat building companies on the planet. 
They built some Lasers
 

 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Pearson  Yachts was one of the finest most respected boat building companies on the planet. 
They built some Lasers
 

I know. I bought a Pearson Laser from some dealer down the Jersey shore in the early 1990s not long after I moved to America. 
 

 

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