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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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2 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I just renamed my boat....

Great. Go ahead and mail your $10 reparation payment to CHAZ. Good thing you have some knee padding on your Zhik pants. You’ll need it.

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36 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Great. Go ahead and mail your $10 reparation payment to CHAZ. Good thing you have some knee padding on your Zhik pants. You’ll need it.

I'll be the one in the hazmat suit this weekend.

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I'll be the one in the hazmat suit this weekend.

As long as we get to race I don’t care what you wear or what you call your boat. I miss our regattas....

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49 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I just renamed my boat....

I thought I would buy a few new stickers for my boat along the lines of....

Aero Girls Rock

Black Lines Matter

Cheat the Covid - Die on Your Laser

RS Aero - Other Boats Are Just Practice

Keep Your Distance

RS Aero for Olympics - We Wuz Robbed

Defund ILCA

I am Wess's Boat Boy

Beware of Hidden Fees

Bring Back the Laser



 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

 our local dealer does not share the D12's position with him.  Especially after I told him specifically I'd send his buyers back to him very angry if he didn't disclose it on the front end.  And yes, (of course) the ILCA exec's support this position. 

Get on board with the dealer and have him put some     a lot of hidden fees on the LPE when he sells one and have him fund your district parties etc

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I am.  Which is why I'm trying to get the word out as much as possible in our district as everyone I've discussed it with has agreed with the position.  Hopefully, if anyone get's word about someone getting ready to buy a non-class new hull they'll let them know the deal.  The one's I worry about most are parents getting lulled into the great low price of LPE's scheme and our local dealer does not share the D12's position with him.  Especially after I told him specifically I'd send his buyers back to him very angry if he didn't disclose it on the front end.  And yes, (of course) the ILCA exec's support this position. 

Is SAYRA taking a similar position for the youth regattas?

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

 The one's I worry about most are parents getting lulled into the great low price of LPE's scheme and our local dealer does not share the D12's position with him.  Especially after I told him specifically I'd send his buyers back to him very angry if he didn't disclose it on the front end.  And yes, (of course) the ILCA exec's support this position. 

Send it to the dealer in writing so if someone wants to return a boat they might have a better chance depending on what the buyer was or was not  told . 

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Hopefully, if anyone get's word about someone getting ready to buy a non-class new hull they'll let them know the deal.  The one's I worry about most are parents getting lulled into the great low price of LPE's scheme and our local dealer does not share the D12's position with him. 

I just don’t see this being much of an issue. The juniors who are getting into lasers in our area are doing so to race. Parents are naturally thinking about resale value. Who would buy a non plaque hull when there are many good used hulls out there? 

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40 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I thought I would buy a few new stickers for my boat along the lines of....

Aero Girls Rock  Are Few and Far Between

Black Lines Matter

Cheat the Covid - Die on Your Laser

RS Aero - Other Boats Are Just Practice More Popular

Keep Your Distance  Laser

RS Aero for Olympics - We Wuz Robbed (But Pretending We Don't Care)

Defund Defend ILCA

I am Wess's Boat Boy

Beware of Hidden Fees  Guys With Trimarans

Bring Back the Laser Reach



 

Good stuff, Tiller! I made a few mods...

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57 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I thought I would buy a few new stickers for my boat along the lines of....

Aero Girls Rock

Black Lines Matter

Cheat the Covid - Die on Your Laser

RS Aero - Other Boats Are Just Practice

Keep Your Distance

RS Aero for Olympics - We Wuz Robbed

Defund ILCA

I am Wess's Boat Boy

Beware of Hidden Fees

Bring Back the Laser



 

Lock it; great post!

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I am.  Which is why I'm trying to get the word out as much as possible in our district as everyone I've discussed it with has agreed with the position.  Hopefully, if anyone get's word about someone getting ready to buy a non-class new hull they'll let them know the deal.  The one's I worry about most are parents getting lulled into the great low price of LPE's scheme and our local dealer does not share the D12's position with him.  Especially after I told him specifically I'd send his buyers back to him very angry if he didn't disclose it on the front end.  And yes, (of course) the ILCA exec's support this position. 

What a convoluted way to fund an organization.  How about pay the manufacturer for the boat and the racing organization for whatever value you think it provides?  Having a structure set up that promotes exclusivity and expects people that see zero benefit (non racers) to help fund it seems counter productive.

I sail a Sunfish at a very grass roots level.  We throw in $20 a piece for a series and have a little party at the end of the year.  Drink beer and have snacks every Sunday.  We would never turn anyone away.  I keep a spare boat in case anyone wants to give it a go.  I value that group of people and our shared experience immensely and would like to introduce others to the fun.

I also sail a Weta.  We race as a one design class with class rules.  We buy the boat from Weta.  We have a separate class association that the racers pay for and where we figure out what is important to our racing.  The class organization brings value by maintaining the rules, schedules and the website. Regattas are paid for with regatta fees. Clear value, clear costs.  Another great group of people.

If the Olympics are important to Laser sailing, the it seems like the Olympians or their sponsors or whoever finds value in that should be paying for it.

I'm sure I am missing something.

 

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10 hours ago, Bill5 said:

While you have your boat boy scurrying around to track where the $100 goes, I am wondering if you can answer these questions: 

1) What are your expectations of ILCA vis-à-vis the grass roots sailor? And - what other international classes meet those expectations? And you can't include kids' boats. I know I have asked this before but you seem to get distracted when I ask. Focus.

2) If the Laser had never become an Olympic class, do you think the racing would be better today?

3) If the Laser had never become an Olympic class, aside from new boats being cheaper, what benefit would that have brought to grass-roots sailors like me?

 

OK I have limited time before a sunset sail so here it is...

First I would ad to Tiller's list of stickers....

  * My other Laser is a Lawnmower;

  * Yes I'm Canadian; try to keep up; and for me

  * The Canadian and Lawnmower are behind me;

 * Go Navy; Beat Army;

  * Black Lives Matter;

  * The hypocritical nut from the club that bans women is behind me, and he owes me rum; and,

  * Tracey owes me rum (as do others I can't recall at present)

To answer your questions in reverse order...

3.) A class organization that would be forced to support the grass roots rather than the elite and in turn be funded by the grass roots.  You would also not be stuck in the monopoly situation the class and WS created for the last 450 days or so. Finally the class would not be fragmenting as it is now, and dealing with new rigs and sails coming down the road.  Lastly but more a matter of opinion, I don't think you would have had any of the war that has been happening for the past decade or so anf the class would still be growing instead of declining.

2.) The operative word being never... then "no" it would not be better today.  If the operative word in youir question was "now"... as in "If the Laser was not an Olympic class now or as of 2024, do you think the racing would be better today?"... then "yes." Emphatically YES!!  Thge class would not have sold out its bedrock SMOD principles for an obviously failed and disastrous last 450 days of FRAND, fees would be lower, boat prices would be lower and the class association and leadership would be forced to focus less on control and globetrotting and more on the the bulk of Laser sailors at the club and grass roots level.

1.) Not sure what you mean, If taken literally my answer would be a combination of Tiller's and Gouv's.  To focus on most of the sailors (which by definition are grass roots) and spend the proportionate amount of the money and efforts (policy) there.   Tracy said in these very pages the class priorities are Olympics and growth from China and Asia.   That not only does NOTHING for the existing grass root sailors, it actually HARMS them with added costs.  If you mean what is the path out of the woods?  I would first say they should never have gone into the woods and having done so I don't know that the genie can be put back in the bottle.  My best guess as to what to do today... something that might make everyone happy even all existing and past builders.... is this...

Bifurcate the class.  An Olympic class called the Torch with fees to Kirby and WS and everyone else and their brother including PSA under the FRAND arrangement keeping the contractual clauses that these FRAND ILCA Torch builders can not build or sell... a classic Laser class (called the Classic or the Laser) ... basically the club boat sold by LPE and anyone else (other than FRAND Torch builders) who want to build under a true open generic standard same as Opti runs.  No fees paid to anyone but no sticker and not welcome at Olympic events.  Both Torch (Olympic) and Laser (Cassic) can hold Nationals and Worlds.  ILCA would have to commit that the open generic standard for hulls and boats for the Laser (classic) would always be the same as it was the the Torch and they would not obsolete the old hulls,  But they would be free to do whatever they want with the strap on parts be it boards, rudders, rigs, rigging, or sails.  So the Torch would keep evolving other than the hull and would have any and all fee necessary to support the Olympic quest and the classic Laser would be truly generic, fee free and low cost. I would suggest refining the rules such that the vang and cunningham had less purchase and that composite rigs be banned from the classic Laser.  Basically everything you could do to lower boat costs and increase boat robustnesses.

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53 minutes ago, efrank said:

I sail a Sunfish at a very grass roots level.  We throw in $20 a piece for a series and have a little party at the end of the year.  Drink beer and have snacks every Sunday.  We would never turn anyone away.  I keep a spare boat in case anyone wants to give it a go.  I value that group of people and our shared experience immensely and would like to introduce others to the fun.

In my view, this is what grass roots is all about! I am with you 100%. This is totally achievable in the Laser/ILCA at any Club. Nobody needs to belong to any organization other than the Club to achieve this. And if we want to get deeper in the roots, you don't even need a Club! Two or three buoys each with enough line and an anchor to hold fast is all you need. Rabbit starts and honest sailing takes care of the need for any type of race committee. Plus - you can do this at any lake you choose. Maybe a Zodiac for people to take turns being a rescue boat. Beautiful!!

53 minutes ago, efrank said:

What a convoluted way to fund an organization.  How about pay the manufacturer for the boat and the racing organization for whatever value you think it provides?  Having a structure set up that promotes exclusivity and expects people that see zero benefit (non racers) to help fund it seems counter productive.

Ya, unfortunately it all started when (according to court documents) the designer entered into an agreement with the IYRU (now WS) and the ILCA to regulate the manufacture, sale and registration of Lasers,  and also entered contracts with builders to manufacture, sell and market the boat. What could go wrong? Then add the Olympics and a builder dispute. The resultant CCF (colossal cluster fuck) is the subject of too many law suits, threads and posts to mention. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

In my view, this is what grass roots is all about! I am with you 100%. This is totally achievable in the Laser/ILCA at any Club. Nobody needs to belong to any organization other than the Club to achieve this. And if we want to get deeper in the roots, you don't even need a Club! Two or three buoys each with enough line and an anchor to hold fast is all you need. Rabbit starts and honest sailing takes care of the need for any type of race committee. Plus - you can do this at any lake you choose. Maybe a Zodiac for people to take turns being a rescue boat. Beautiful!!

 


What happened was that the class and the designer and the builders forgot the basic rule...

Feed the grassroots to protect against future problems.

81kS15ynZ4L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

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In our area D12, club level laser sailing is growing. Kids are moving out of the Opti and open skiff into 4.7 at an increasing rate. Parents of these juniors are getting back into the boat. This IS grassroots sailing. Bring on the new builders!

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40 minutes ago, Wess said:

To answer your questions in reverse order...

3.) A class organization that would be forced to support the grass roots rather than the elite and in turn be funded by the grass roots.  

Are you a politician? It's a pretty simple question. I am a grass roots sailor. What could ILCA do (give me some real action items) that would improve/support my grass roots activities? And what are some examples of other International classes' actions (real action items) that improve/support the grass roots sailor in those classes? The rest of your "answer" addresses things that have no bearing on me whatsoever.

40 minutes ago, Wess said:

2.) The operative word being never... then "no" it would not be better today.  If the operative word in youir question was "now"... as in "If the Laser was not an Olympic class now or as of 2024, do you think the racing would be better today?"... then "yes." Emphatically YES!!  

OK. That's all I needed. The rest is bullshit of no use to me as a grass roots sailor. Other than your line about focusing on the grass roots sailor - for which you still haven't defined. Politicians and bureaucrats use words like "focus" and "support". Give me something real. Buoys for my weekend racing? Hamburgers for my BBQ? A keg of beer?

41 minutes ago, Wess said:

1.) Not sure what you mean, If taken literally my answer would be a combination of Tiller's and Gouv's.  To focus on most of the sailors (which by definition are grass roots) and spend the proportionate amount of the money and efforts (policy) there.   

Again - this is the only sentence I needed, congressman. And what would this proportionate amount of money be used for? As a grass roots sailor I do not need any money from any organization to help me race for fun and enjoyment. 

45 minutes ago, Wess said:

Bifurcate the class.  An Olympic class called the torch with fees to Kirby and WS and everyone else and their brother including PSA under the FRAND arrangement keeping the contractual clauses that these FRAND ILCA Torch builders can not build or sell... a classic Laser class or club boat sold by LPE and anyone else who want to build under a true open generic standard same as Opti runs.  No fees paid to anyone but no sticker and not welcome at Olympic events.  Both Torch (Olympic) and Laser (classic) can hold Nationals and Worlds.  ILCA would have to commit that the open generic standard for hulls and boats for the Laser (classic) would always be the same as it was the the Torch and they would not obsolete the old hulls,  But they would be free to do whatever they want with the strap on parts be it boards, rudders, rigs, rigging, or sails.  So the Torch would keep evolving other than the hull and would have any and all fee necessary to support the Olympic quest and the classic Laser would be truly generic, fee free and low cost. I would suggest refining the rules such that the vang and cunningham had less purchase and that composite rigs be banned from the classic Laser.  Basically everything you could do to lower boat costs and increase boat robustnesses.

The bifurcation notion has merit. I like the Laser classic idea, and have agreed on this with you before. And I have opined on the vang and cunningham as well. (I was reminded again on the weekend that not only are they too powerful, but you have a lot of rope lying around. I find that tying them off on the centreboard handle helps, but even then...). I do fear, however, that this won't work. I don't think the numbers are there to support it and would bifurcate the grass roots guys as well. Not all grass roots sailors want the simplified boat youa re suggesting. 

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10 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

In our area D12, club level laser sailing is growing. Kids are moving out of the Opti and open skiff into 4.7 at an increasing rate. Parents of these juniors are getting back into the boat. This IS grassroots sailing. Bring on the new builders!

It's always good to see families sailing together in the same class.

Some of the greatest pleasures in my own sailing career have been the opportunities to race Sunfish, Lasers, and RS Aeros with one or both of my sons, and now to see them introducing sailing to their own children.

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21 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's always good to see families sailing together in the same class.

Some of the greatest pleasures in my own sailing career have been the opportunities to race Sunfish, Lasers, and RS Aeros with one or both of my sons, and now to see them introducing sailing to their own children.

That’s what it’s all about. My son is in the 4.7, and we are often on the same course, comparing notes between races. In some families we could easily see this year the parent in full rig, an older child in radial, and the youngest in 4.7, all on the same course. The grassroots bears a lot of responsibility  for its own fate. Good leadership at the district level is crucial, and we have that with Robbie. But it also takes a lot of parents and sailors networking constantly and going out of their way to make sure everyone has housing and gear if needed.

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29 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

That’s what it’s all about. My son is in the 4.7, and we are often on the same course, comparing notes between races. In some families we could easily see this year the parent in full rig, an older child in radial, and the youngest in 4.7, all on the same course. The grassroots bears a lot of responsibility  for its own fate. Good leadership at the district level is crucial, and we have that with Robbie. But it also takes a lot of parents and sailors networking constantly and going out of their way to make sure everyone has housing and gear if needed.

Have you any expectations of ILCA to support your grass roots initiative?

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Bill - if you have no expectations that ILCA support grass roots then why are you OK with them taking our money without asking when we buy new boats? Or with Robbie refusing us entry at the club level if we have generic boats while generic sail and parts he arbitrarily deems OK? Or with his refusing to score us at the club level if we don’t join ILCA? 
 

Why are we forced to pay for a bunch of globe trotting control freaks who by your own admission you think have no obligation to do anything for grass roots Laser sailing. No know... the group that actually built this class!?

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:


What happened was that the class and the designer and the builders forgot the basic rule...

Feed the grassroots to protect against future problems.

81kS15ynZ4L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

TLF is clearly an Astroturfing operating being run by LPE.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Have you any expectations of ILCA to support your grass roots initiative?

This is so funny when saying there is no grassroots for the non sailing or entry level races. Go to most of the dealers or Intensity sails and see all the parts sails available at a big discount over class legal parts. Go to the rs aero dealers or elsewhere and  try to find non class legal parts. Grass roots in the Laser supports itself. Not so much with some of the others

Knock off rudder blade Laser 129.00

rudder blade Aero 580.00 (if you can wait 2 or 3 weeks)

aero sail 9 sail 892.00 

Laser standard practice 139.00

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Have you any expectations of ILCA to support your grass roots initiative?

It looks like they  help do a few things for both grass roots and others 

ILCA Presents Free Laser Sailing Webinars Hosted by SailCoach

https://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/06/03/tune-in-for-sailcoach-webinars/

 

Aero?????

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=news

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Have you any expectations of ILCA to support your grass roots initiative?

The objects of Laser class association are outlined in ILCA constitution:

https://www.laserinternational.org/rules-and-regulations/ilca-constitution/

One of them are:

(3) to encourage and foster the enjoyment of the sporting and recreational aspects of sailing

So, the leadership of the class should not be sitting on their fat asses and asking: "What is it that you want us to do?" Instead, they shold be generating ideas how to accomplish the goals set in ILCA constitution and running around and implementing them. That's why they are elected there.

Laser is the only Olympic equipment that, besides being in Olympics, is a recreational dinghy and is also sold to general public. I think ILCA constitution covers (or should cover) the needs of those sailors as well.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Bill - if you have no expectations that ILCA support grass roots then why are you OK with them taking our money without asking when we buy new boats? Or with Robbie refusing us entry at the club level if we have generic boats while generic sail and parts he arbitrarily deems OK? Or with his refusing to score us at the club level if we don’t join ILCA? 
 

Why are we forced to pay for a bunch of globe trotting control freaks who by your own admission you think have no obligation to do anything for grass roots Laser sailing. No know... the group that actually built this class!?

It is your choice to buy a new boat and face the fact there are fees. Your call. Buy a used one or an Aero if the stench is that bad. It is Robbie's choice - and the wishes of his District constituents - to exclude the generic bits and not score at the club level. That's their choice.  My view of a grass roots sailor and his/her needs are different, as are the views of the Club to which I choose to belong. I choose to buy a used boat - but not because I want to avoid paying fees, but because I think it is better value. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. I belong to ILCA. Nobody is forcing me. It is my choice. And as an added bonus, I can sail competitively  in ILCA events fee-less other than the $30 I paid for my sail button and my dues. That's probably less than you pay for a bottle of red when you are perched upon your trimaran, taking in the sunset and cogitating the vicissitudes of life. (And how to troll.)

If I lived in Robbie's District and it was important to me to be scored in Club races, yet found the fees paid in buying a new boat outweighed my desire to be scored, I would buy a used boat. However, if the only way my soul could be satisfied is to have a brand spanking new boat but only if I could do that without paying ILCA fees, I would seek help. 

I do not need ILCA - or any other association -  to satisfy my love for sailing and interest in fleet racing. 

Now tell me - what are the real actions you would like to see ILCA bring to the grass roots sailor that would be of any value? And what other international classes do those things? For fuck's sake, Wess, just answer the question. I honestly don't know if any other classes do anything. I have a thirst for knowledge. Quench it with your infinite wisdom. 

44 minutes ago, ojfd said:

The objects of Laser class association are outlined in ILCA constitution:

https://www.laserinternational.org/rules-and-regulations/ilca-constitution/

One of them are:

(3) to encourage and foster the enjoyment of the sporting and recreational aspects of sailing

So, the leadership of the class should not be sitting on their fat asses and asking: "What is it that you want us to do?" Instead, they shold be generating ideas how to accomplish the goals set in ILCA constitution and running around and implementing them. That's why they are elected there.

Laser is the only Olympic equipment that, besides being in Olympics, is a recreational dinghy and is also sold to general public. I think ILCA constitution covers (or should cover) the needs of those sailors as well.

That is a good point, ojfd. They aren't doing much in that regard (notwithstanding VWAP's observation above). But - what should they be doing? What are the grass root sailors expectations? For me, I don't have any. But I find it beneficial that - for the cost of membership - I can still go to a national/international  championship and compete against some of the best sailors in the world. 

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1 hour ago, ojfd said:

Laser is the only Olympic equipment that, besides being in Olympics, is a recreational dinghy and is also sold to general public. I think ILCA constitution covers (or should cover) the needs of those sailors as well.

Damn. Hit "submit" too soon. All Olympic boats are sold to the general public, and many are used for recreational purposes. The Finn guys on this site will tout the boat for all activities! And there are most certainly some speed freak recreational sailors buying used 49ers to bomb around. 

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Bill -

You asked for an answer and you got one.  Nothing I can do about the fact that you want a different answer and I am not going to waste my time arguing with you.  My answer is my answer as yours is yours.  My opinion is no more right or wrong than your opinion.  Each of our opinions are right for each other.

You don't care about hundreds of dollars of fees on new boats. Glad you are rich enough that they don't matter to you. But they do to others and do to me.

Your answer for other who can't afford or don't want to pay the fees is too bad then you cant buy a new boat instead go buy your hand me downs (used boats).   Again, reasonable people can prefer not to buy your hand me down used boat and instead want to buy a new one free from hidden fees.  Its not my fault that ILCA has so disenfranchised grass roots sailors that they en masse don't join and fund ILCA.  Why should they fund an organization when leadership specifically stated their priority is not them; its Asia/China and Olympics.

Next you will say go buy an LPE club or generic boat that Robbie or others will arbitrarily block at the club level while they allow generic sails or generic parts... basically because as he made clear here... he hates LPE.  So do I BTW (and doubt this option exists for very long... even though I am told that there have been more club Laser sold in the US than ILCAs) but I still don't think his actions fair or right.  I equally disagree his actions to force people to join ILCA or not be scored when the event is not ILCA sanctioned (and allows generic parts and generic sails).  Again people can have differing opinions - I am not going to change his view and neither will he change mine - but to me its sad that this is what ILCA and the people running have come to.  Basically, they take away your choice and will force you to pay and force you to join even while they say (and act as) we don't care about you and we want or derive no benefit from them.

What really makes me sad in all this is that in my opinion the current ILCA leadership has and continues to take actions that kill the golden goose.  What was most special about the Laser was the global sense of community.  A shared passion even when their might not be a shared language.  The number of times that impacted my life while on international business travel it would be hard for me to count.  Think I have sailed a Laser in all the oceans and many of the seas (not to mention lake all over the world) and what a joy that shared connection was.  But that has been significantly eroded.  Even you and the most ardent ILCA supporter would have to admit that if being honest.  I must admit that is more emotional than rational driver of my views - after all there is still a fantastic local fleet filled with great people where I would do most my sailing - where none of this shit matters and ILCA might just as well not exist (nobody cares what they say or do... its never even discussed).  It might surprise you but I have and still do recommend folks get and sail a Laser in my local fleet.  I still have my Torch T-shirts and belt (sad that that turned out to be a Kirby ploy).  Now if they were in Robbie's district to be fair if I got asked I would say go get an Aero and avoid the politics and personal views being shoved down your throat (and the hand pushed into you pocket/wallet).  But he has as much right to his view as I do to mine.  Even if he does still owe me rum LOL.

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59 minutes ago, Wess said:

Bill -

Etc Etc

I respect your opinion on ILCA. (Although I disagree with the insultive verbiage you have directed their way. I think you are above that.)

I don't understand why a "not rich person" would buy a new boat instead of a good used boat. Especially if that boat was only going to be used for grass roots purposes. Illogical.

I don't understand how my buying a used boat because I see better value equates with me being a rich person who doesn't care about a few hundred dollars of fees. Illogical.

I don't understand how you expect ILCA to be held accountable for every single dollar of revenue and expenses, yet you apparently would be happy with a single line item under their expense line that states: "Support for undefined grass roots activity........................$100,000." Illogical.

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Blah blah blah...

 

 

 

Lets agree to disagree. 

And drink rum...  :)

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15 hours ago, efrank said:

I also sail a Weta.  We race as a one design class with class rules.  We buy the boat from Weta.  We have a separate class association that the racers pay for and where we figure out what is important to our racing.  The class organization brings value by maintaining the rules, schedules and the website. Regattas are paid for with regatta fees. Clear value, clear costs.  Another great group of people.

So how would your Weta manufacturer feel if someone knocked off the boat, sold it for half the price and then expected everyone to let that boat and sailor, (that/who contributes $0 contribution to maintaining the class) come sail in the class events and enjoy all the same perks the "legal" class members are getting and actually paying for?

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17 hours ago, VWAP said:

Send it to the dealer in writing so if someone wants to return a boat they might have a better chance depending on what the buyer was or was not  told . 

I e-mailed him.  Think that would cover it?  Happy to mail a hard copy letter.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

If they were in Robbie's district to be fair if I got asked I would say go get an Aero and avoid the politics and personal views being shoved down your throat (and the hand pushed into you pocket/wallet).  

 

9 hours ago, Bill5 said:

It is your choice to buy a new boat and face the fact there are fees. Your call. Buy a used one or an Aero if the stench is that bad.


Thanks guys.

I hope people would buy RS Aeros for all the many excellent positive reasons for doing so but, whatever the motivation for your decision, we will welcome you with open arms into the RS Aero Class.

Unless you are a lawnmower of course. We draw the line at lawnmowers.

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17 hours ago, torrid said:

Is SAYRA taking a similar position for the youth regattas?

That's not my fish to fry.  Now- we do overlap with some SAYRA youth events to allow kids the opportunity to "Double dip" in both the SAYRA and D12 series.  If we come across an LPE "fleet killer" boat I'll let them know they won't be scored for the D12 series, but if SAYRA determines it's ok for them to get scored for that series then that's up to them.  If kids want to protest them for sailing a non-class boat then that's up to the kids.

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5 minutes ago, tillerman said:

 


Thanks guys.

I hope people would buy RS Aeros for all the many excellent positive reasons for doing so but, whatever the motivation for your decision, we will welcome you with open arms into the RS Aero Class.

Unless you are a lawnmower of course. We draw the line at lawnmowers.

The Aero suffers the same thing the PSA laser suffers, but more so at a $10,000.00+ USD price of entry.  That alone eliminates a lot of Jr's or at least the ones not coming from wealthy families.  This is what LPE is attempting to pray or better yet, poach upon with the discount boat.  Doesn't anyone see it as being pretty sleazy they can all of the sudden offer a boat for HALF the price they've been selling it at for years?  Hello?  Ethics?  Screw me once shame on you....Screw me twice...…?

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2 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Isn’t that backwards??

How would your Weta manufacturer feel if you banned his product from your races, built your own molds, sent them to a bunch of counterfeit shops, had them create nearly identical toys to the brand name version, called them IWCAs,  and continued holding their games exclusively for Wetas built before this year and the knockoff IWCA boats?? 

If WETA allowed the class to control who builds the boats and then for years 1 builder shat upon a significant amount of class members with supply/quality issues and THEN were given YEARS to fix things and refused to and THEN refused to play the Olympics game by allowing other builders to play then I'd be 100% fine with it IF I sailed a WETA and IF they had the same class make up and IF I felt it were in the best interest of the class at the  time and IF I had the ability to VOTE for the change as the class rules allowed.

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9 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Isn’t that backwards??

How would your Weta manufacturer feel if you banned his product from your races, built your own molds, sent them to a bunch of counterfeit shops, had them create nearly identical toys to the brand name version, called them IWCAs,  and continued holding their games exclusively for Wetas built before this year and the knockoff IWCA boats?? 

Hey Gouv agree with you on above but on separate matter I tried to send you a PM but your mailbox is full.  Lost your email.  Give me a shout if you see this.

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7 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

That's not my fish to fry.  Now- we do overlap with some SAYRA youth events to allow kids the opportunity to "Double dip" in both the SAYRA and D12 series.  If we come across an LPE "fleet killer" boat I'll let them know they won't be scored for the D12 series, but if SAYRA determines it's ok for them to get scored for that series then that's up to them.  If kids want to protest them for sailing a non-class boat then that's up to the kids.

 

Games are nothing more or less than the activities defined by a set of rules. Clubs are defined by their Constitution and bylaws. 
 

 

LPE builds Lasers.  The International Laser Class Constitution clearly bans all non-Lasers from its sanctioned events. 
Certainly as a district officer of the International Laser Class Association you are obligated to act according to the Constitution. 
If any toys should be banned, by a District Officer,  from participation, wouldn’t it be the toys that are not Lasers
 

 

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Note: i am as frustrated as anyone by the  Lack of  supply from LP. 
I have been calling for the Class Association to take steps to allow other builders since the builders first started disappointing me in the early 1980s. 
 

The Class has never taken the first step to allow other builders. 
The Class has a Constitution where methods of amending it are clearly defined.

For some reason, which I have never seen explained in any Class publication, the Class Officers  simply abandoned the Constitution and have begun to set up a new game on their own. 
There is no official path currently available for participation in Laser Class Events by Non-Laser sailboats. 
 It would have  been easy to properly amend the Constitution AT ANY TIME, but the Class officers and employees have simply taken vigilante action. 
 

No one stopped the vigilantes from doing things according to the Constitution which defines their authority. 
Despite the fact I absolutely agree with the goal of allowing other builders to supply the toys for our game, I  cannot support the vigilante unConstitutionsl behavior of those who used to be officers of the International Laser Class Association.

It is  ONLY because I agree with their goals, and the fact I hardly give a rat’s patootie, I have not filed  complaints with the various appropriate  Authorities.  
 

I do not see how such a complaint could possibly result In Any result other than BRUTAL sanctions on the conspirators and forced return of millions of dollars to the Constitutionally defined Association they ceased to represent.

 

The situation is utterly absurd. We have people with absolutely no authority  stomping their feet demanding sailors and manufacturers play by non-existent rules  no one ever had or currently has the authority to enact. 
 

Finally: Don't even think about trying to label me as some bad guy.  I am not doing ANYTHING but reminding each of you to read the Constitution and BEGIN to take proper action to accomplish your goals. 
 

There is a proper path.

Use it!!

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

So how would your Weta manufacturer feel if someone knocked off the boat, sold it for half the price and then expected everyone to let that boat and sailor, (that/who contributes $0 contribution to maintaining the class) come sail in the class events and enjoy all the same perks the "legal" class members are getting and actually paying for?

Which Weta of the 1200 or so they have built? They significantly changed construction and redesigned the sail a few years back. 

The ILCA is doing a reasonable job these days with what they have had to deal with. 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

The Aero suffers the same thing the PSA laser suffers, but more so at a $10,000.00+ USD price of entry.  

 

 

Availability: RS Aeros arrive 8-10 weeks after ordering - please plan ahead!

 

ILCA 7 Complete In-stock

 





 
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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

So how would your Weta manufacturer feel if someone knocked off the boat, sold it for half the price and then expected everyone to let that boat and sailor, (that/who contributes $0 contribution to maintaining the class) come sail in the class events and enjoy all the same perks the "legal" class members are getting and actually paying for?

That is a straw man argument.  My point was that the racing organization is not supplemented by fees attached to the boat.

To answer your question, the manufacturer would not have a say in the matter, that would be up to the Weta class.  He would probably feel bad.  I would feel bad for him, as I have met him on a couple of occasions and he is a very personable guy.

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23 minutes ago, efrank said:

That is a straw man argument.  My point was that the racing organization is not supplemented by fees attached to the boat.

To answer your question, the manufacturer would not have a say in the matter, that would be up to the Weta class.  He would probably feel bad.  I would feel bad for him, as I have met him on a couple of occasions and he is a very personable guy.

This is apples and oranges regarding "fees".  When Weta starts hosting World Championship and other annual regattas where they are supplying hundreds of boats and have hundreds in attendance, (multiple times a year around the world) than we can take about operating/event support costs and best ways to support the class with money from class members and boat owners.

Not knocking the WETA.  I think it's a cool boat for sure.

 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Note: i am as frustrated as anyone by the  Lack of  supply from LP. 
I have been calling for the Class Association to take steps to allow other builders since the builders first started disappointing me in the early 1980s. 
 

The Class has never taken the first step to allow other builders. 
The Class has a Constitution where methods of amending it are clearly defined.

For some reason, which I have never seen explained in any Class publication, the Class Officers  simply abandoned the Constitution and have begun to set up a new game on their own. 
There is no official path currently available for participation in Laser Class Events by Non-Laser sailboats. 
 It would have  been easy to properly amend the Constitution AT ANY TIME, but the Class officers and employees have simply taken vigilante action. 
 

No one stopped the vigilantes from doing things according to the Constitution which defines their authority. 
Despite the fact I absolutely agree with the goal of allowing other builders to supply the toys for our game, I  cannot support the vigilante unConstitutionsl behavior of those who used to be officers of the International Laser Class Association.

It is  ONLY because I agree with their goals, and the fact I hardly give a rat’s patootie, I have not filed  complaints with the various appropriate  Authorities.  
 

I do not see how such a complaint could possibly result In Any result other than BRUTAL sanctions on the conspirators and forced return of millions of dollars to the Constitutionally defined Association they ceased to represent.

 

The situation is utterly absurd. We have people with absolutely no authority  stomping their feet demanding sailors and manufacturers play by non-existent rules  no one ever had or currently has the authority to enact. 
 

Finally: Don't even think about trying to label me as some bad guy.  I am not doing ANYTHING but reminding each of you to read the Constitution and BEGIN to take proper action to accomplish your goals. 
 

There is a proper path.

Use it!!

 

 

 

I have no problem with you whatsoever Fred!  I still miss your killer newspaper publications.  Perhaps a better path could have been taken, but (as Wess loves to point out) the Lemmings are over the cliff.....

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16 minutes ago, RobbieB said:Perhaps a better path could have been taken, but (as Wess loves to point out) the Lemmings are over the cliff.....

But Robbie the disingenuous part is those from ILCA saying in these very pages oh no we have no plan or need to do that but yet you wait... soon to come will be another ballot to do exactly that.... after as you say... there really is no choice because the lemmings are all over the cliff. It’s stuff like this, and it’s happened repeatedly, that causes folks to lose faith. It’s a simple money and power grab because they can

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

This is apples and oranges regarding "fees".  When Weta starts hosting World Championship and other annual regattas where they are supplying hundreds of boats and have hundreds in attendance, (multiple times a year around the world) than we can take about operating/event support costs and best ways to support the class with money from class members and boat owners.

Not knocking the WETA.  I think it's a cool boat for sure.

 

Fair point.  I am certainly no expert on large events and the Weta and Laser are on different levels in that regard.

To be clear, I applaud anyone who takes the time and makes the effort that you obviously do to promote sailing and all it's benefits.  I think your playing the hand you have been dealt.  My suggestion is that the way the game is set up is not straight forward.  Yes, everyone can decide for themselves if they want to participate, but it is just my opinion that funding the racing organization through kickbacks is not a great way to set up the system.  Manufacturers should supply boats and racers should pay for racing. 

I don't even sail a laser, so I am out.  Good luck Robbie, I hope District 12 sees a ton of lasers on the water!

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I have no problem with you whatsoever Fred!  I still miss your killer newspaper publications.  Perhaps a better path could have been taken, but (as Wess loves to point out) the Lemmings are over the cliff.....

Thanks... and Eric Faust was the major talent behind eight of the 12 new skaters that came out of my office. 
Mark Jacobi did another and I did the last with a ton of secretarial help from Vicki Palmer 

as for just continuing??

no!! 
They could write up a few proposed Constitutional amendments before going to bed tonight, pass them in an Internet WC meeting tomorrow and start the voting Friday.

All they need to do is officially obtain the authority to do what they want to do.

EVERYTHING else can simply be Officially started after the authority is vested in them to do so. 
 

I remember getting up from the dinner table to go answer the door because my friend was knocking.

Mom: What are you doing?

Me: Tim is at the door.

Mom: and?

Me: I am going to answer the door.

Mom: Not yet you aren’t 

I returned to table sat down and pulled my chair in 

Me: May I please be excused? Tim is at the door. 
 

Mom: Certainly. Ask him if he wants some dinner before you leave for the lake. 
 

******
It is just that simple 

 

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31 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

@Wess won the day again!!! 

0AAB5C6A-3505-4E35-96A8-6701C6C5227C.jpeg

That's because he pays a fee to Tillerman to like everything he posts...:P

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10 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

That's because he pays a fee to Tillerman to like everything he posts...:P

It is the disingenuous socks posting the likes. I am beginning to think the self proclaimed troll also delivers trailer boats. That was so funny in a sad sort of way 

 

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And all Wess wants is a class and leadership that cares about the grass roots and tells the truth. 
 

Oh and to keep annoying VWAP until he tells us how much money he makes off the class and yank Firefly’ chain to see if we can ever get him to post anything even remotely related and intelligent

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

Pretty sure that ain’t Tiller. A rarer bird. A Texas Democrat I believe.

Not that rare. What about Austin? The blueberry in the tomato soup!

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1 minute ago, Bill5 said:

Not that rare. What about Austin? The blueberry in the tomato soup!

Now there is some truth. 

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9 minutes ago, Wess said:

And all Wess wants is a class and leadership that cares about the grass roots and tells the truth. 
 

Oh and to keep annoying VWAP until he tells us how much money he makes off the class and yank Firefly’ chain to see if we can ever get him to post anything even remotely related and intelligent

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49 minutes ago, Wess said:

And all Wess wants is a class and leadership that cares about the grass roots and tells the truth. 
 

Oh and to keep annoying VWAP until he tells us how much money he makes off the class and yank Firefly’ chain to see if we can ever get him to post anything even remotely related and intelligent

see, I knew it bothered you

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Told you

And right you are LOL. What a cast of characters.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Hey @Bill5 - you have a much higher likes/posts ratio than @Wess. Who are you paying?

You haven’t figured it out yet? I ain’t telling but it is kinda funny and sad. Not canntt level sad but still...

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2 hours ago, Firefly-DC said:

see, I knew it bothered you

Why on earth do you think that? If it bothered me I would stop trying to annoy you and point out your obvious hypocrisy and ignorance. You are the perfect ILCA member. Stupid and ignorant! Join a men’s only club, hate on BLM and pick people’s pockets and you could be a rising star!

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21 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Have you any expectations of ILCA to support your grass roots initiative?

Sorry I’m just now replying. I finally had the time  to get on the water. Breeze on the  light side but still good practice. I expect  ILCA to safeguard the one design nature  of the class, and to organize national and world level events. That’s the short and sweet version, leaving out the devil and the details. I don’t expect them to hold our hands at the club level. Too tired and sore at the moment to give it much thought beyond that.

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I have no idea why it says I haven’t visited since May 25th. Maybe because I am actually (not) Bill Crane.  Or Nasty Rasty!?! These damn power hungry money sucking ILCA globe trotting charlatans have me so confused I Canntt even remember who I am. Oh wait, yes I do. I am the guy who tells the truth, loves the boat and class as it was (and rum.... I love rum even if the lying lemmings will not pay up on the bet they lost) and renamed my boat for Yeller...

* I Canntt Breathe

and I don’t even mean because of all the smokescreen that ILCA keeps laying down. 
 

Oh well it’s only been 447 days since ILCA told us there would be new builders soon. And that there would be a NA builder. And and and.. so much smoke, so little time.

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37 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I know you say this just to bother me. :-)

If the shoe fits LOL.  I gotta do something to keep you crazy Carolinians engaged an enraged.  Seriously, I hope all is well down there with you and your clan.

 

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

If the shoe fits LOL.  I gotta do something to keep you crazy Carolinians engaged an enraged.  Seriously, I hope all is well down there with you and your clan.

 

Between RONA and the riot we had it's been touch and go for sure. Our business took fire damage.  I think it's easier for a building to just burn to the ground and deal with a rebuild than mitigate smoke damage...

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20 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Between RONA and the riot we had it's been touch and go for sure. Our business took fire damage.  I think it's easier for a building to just burn to the ground and deal with a rebuild than mitigate smoke damage...

Sh*t, dude; I am seriously sorry to hear that.   This Laser politics mess is a fun diversion from real life but in real life Lord knows its a tough time for our country on many levels.

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