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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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57 minutes ago, tillerman said:

So true...

I thought Gouv's rule was that you had to say "Yathzee" when you do that!?!!?

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tcatman said:

 My advice.... be crystal clear about rules that create hills to die on....    Screw the stickers..... the grass roots sailor wants the event to exist more or less the same NEXT YEAR....  Everybody else might never return.   I also say.... "well   we don't expect it to be an issue"   is weak sauce... It doesn't drive interest by the casual competitor in participating.  (does no sticker means you are cheating?????  BAR CODE ??? well screw that)     For a week long national championship.... absolutely....   otherwise.... It looks more like a hill to die on.

In North America I thing we are pretty safe. The good ship LP sailed years ago when they seemingly couldn't make a buck outside Europe. If they weren't making money this side of the pond at  $7500 (equivalent) when they bolted, how are they going to do it at $5000? This will likely be a non-issue for years. I yearn for the "old days" - at least around here - when we had the 5 - 6 awesome weekend events when the sailing was only half the fun. Those died down significantly waaay before all this noise. A split? Doubt it.

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15 hours ago, Tcatman said:

and that is a fine position and hill to die on.... 

As I see the issue.   These sailors who show up are your actual Grass Roots sailors...(not your definition)   They are the sailors that your tuesday night beginners try to learn from.  , these guys are the heart and sole of your fleet  and set the culture  for the  standards for friendly competition.  they are the sailors you count on to make a class    The key word here is ROOTS.....     Lots and lots of sailors will flush through a class and play a bit.... but you need individuals of all skill levels to put down roots in the class and put energy into growing it by supporting all the sailors giving it a try and showing up..  If these guys melt away to other classes or life changes and they are not replaced.... you will be looking at the rock bottom sailing scene.

Keep in mind how the  recreational sport world is event driven.   People decide... is the single event, worth my time on this specific weekend. ...   factors include camping, venue, travel, competition, participation, entertainment, family friendly, single friendly, traffic, competition etc etc....     For the vast majority of sailors... its not about the class legal ladder competition with the proper certification for a slot at the NA's or the high point championship     Your grass roots sailor cares about the fun factor at a specific event and if they get to 5 such events in a season.... they declare victory in a good season  and look forward to next year.    

When your class rules get in the way of the fun factor for those grass roots sailors who spend time and money on your weekend event  and it doesn't meet expectations....   You are screwed.  Again.....  history form the beach cat world..   US Sailing used to run Area Qualifier championships for their US Sailing national championships.   US Sailing could never understand why participation was always so so.  When you ran an event that offered a top PRO and racing.... You were pulling teeth to convince the top sailors in the various one design cat classes to compete....    turnout 5 to 10 boats... When I put the effort into making it an event at a great club, with good social stuff.... I could get the numbers up to 30 -35 boats.     

My advice.... be crystal clear about rules that create hills to die on....    Screw the stickers..... the grass roots sailor wants the event to exist more or less the same NEXT YEAR....  Everybody else might never return.   I also say.... "well   we don't expect it to be an issue"   is weak sauce... It doesn't drive interest by the casual competitor in participating.  (does no sticker means you are cheating?????  BAR CODE ??? well screw that)     For a week long national championship.... absolutely....   otherwise.... It looks more like a hill to die on.

 

We are being crystal clear in our district.  To the point of contacting the LP dealer and having a conversation with him regarding "sending angry buyers back to you if you don't disclose the class situation when selling".

The word is out.  The dealer knows our position, Club sailing directors know our position, our members know our position.  

I have a loyalty string in me that has been detrimental before.  I always tell myself that loyalty is over rated, but then seem to forget.

Just call me "Hamburger Hill Rob".

ILCA- We ride together, we die together.  Hey- maybe that's the new bumper sticker!

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34 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

We are being crystal clear in our district.  To the point of contacting the LP dealer and having a conversation with him regarding "sending angry buyers back to you if you don't disclose the class situation when selling".

The word is out.  The dealer knows our position, Club sailing directors know our position, our members know our position.  

I have a loyalty string in me that has been detrimental before.  I always tell myself that loyalty is over rated, but then seem to forget.

Just call me "Hamburger Hill Rob".

ILCA- We ride together, we die together.  Hey- maybe that's the new bumper sticker!

Do you have an ILCA dealer locally?

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35 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Do you have an ILCA dealer locally?

Truthfully that's been hard to keep up with.  I know of 3 on the east coast selling PSA boats and we have 2-3 new PSA boats in our district this year, but haven't seen them yet due to COVID regatta cancellations. BTW- our district hasn't seen 2-3 NEW LPE boats in 2-3 years so....

Not aware of any with other supplier offerings yet, but expect to see 1 or 2 drop by the end of October.

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On 8/10/2020 at 9:09 AM, RobbieB said:

That's really LIBERAL counting method you're using...

Well I know you orange hair King lover southern boys don't like facts but that fact it that is how many days its been since ILCA gave LPE the boot.

But if you prefer now that we are at 501 days we could instead say you fools are more than half way to...

  * 1000 days!

But if you don't like that we could go with more than

  * 43 MILLION seconds!

But that might be a bit much for your fingers and toes LOL :lol:

Still it don't feel like its "soon" to me.  Or that we will ever have a NA ILCA builder.  But I know you like fake news so do carry on...

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46 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well I know you orange hair King lover southern boys don't like facts but that fact it that is how many days its been since ILCA gave LPE the boot.

But if you prefer now that we are at 501 days we could instead say you fools are more than half way to...

  * 1000 days!

But if you don't like that we could go with more than

  * 43 MILLION seconds!

But that might be a bit much for your fingers and toes LOL :lol:

Still it don't feel like its "soon" to me.  Or that we will ever have a NA ILCA builder.  But I know you like fake news so do carry on...

I'm with you on the NA builder.  Which is a shame, but given the market uncertainty understandable.  Really bummed that ZIM stood there at our regional SAYRA meeting in February and announced they would be the NA builder then bailed without a word....  

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4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I'm with you on the NA builder.  Which is a shame, but given the market uncertainty understandable.  Really bummed that ZIM stood there at our regional SAYRA meeting in February and announced they would be the NA builder then bailed without a word....  

To be fair to Zim they were a victim of the ILCA process.  As a business you have to express the interest and put on a positive front while you research out the truth.  Truth is there simply ain't a NA market to justify the investment.  Its different in Europe.

Here ILCA dropped the ball.  Their restraint of trade (unfair in my opinion) practices actually bit them in the backside.  If they had allowed ILCA builders to also build and sell non plaque boats... generic Lasers or ILCAs or whatever you would and legally could want to call it... the outcome would have been a win win.  For ILCA as a class, for builders who would have been better able to justify the investment and for grass root sailors.  But this crop of ILCA leader showed their true colors once again.  Olympics and China and elite and control.  Period.  Rotten to the core. 

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12 minutes ago, Wess said:

To be fair to Zim they were a victim of the ILCA process.  As a business you have to express the interest and put on a positive front while you research out the truth.  Truth is there simply ain't a NA market to justify the investment.  Its different in Europe.

 

I see that Zim are now an ILCA parts dealer. So definitely the place to go to buy your ILCA composite spars and ILCA sails and other ILCA parts for your ILCA 4s, 6s and 7s. I suspect that's where the real margins are anyway.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

To be fair to Zim they were a victim of the ILCA process.  As a business you have to express the interest and put on a positive front while you research out the truth.  Truth is there simply ain't a NA market to justify the investment.  Its different in Europe.

Here ILCA dropped the ball.  Their restraint of trade (unfair in my opinion) practices actually bit them in the backside.  If they had allowed ILCA builders to also build and sell non plaque boats... generic Lasers or ILCAs or whatever you would and legally could want to call it... the outcome would have been a win win.  For ILCA as a class, for builders who would have been better able to justify the investment and for grass root sailors.  But this crop of ILCA leader showed their true colors once again.  Olympics and China and elite and control.  Period.  Rotten to the core. 

@Wess - what do you think the price point of a generic boat would be? 

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17 hours ago, Bill5 said:

@Wess - what do you think the price point of a generic boat would be? 

Great bait Bill!! My answer is “$1.00 higher than the lowest legally permissible selling price in each market.”

And in true grass roots fashion you will never guess what I sailed last night, against what, or the results. But it was fun and in true Laser grass roots spirit. Actually a bit too grass roots for my taste but still fun to knock the rust off.

#DefundILCA

#TheLaserClass

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21 minutes ago, Wess said:

My answer is “$1.00 higher than the lowest legally permissible selling price in each market.”

If it's "generic" then there would be no "legally permissible" selling price as there would be no organization or brand owner to set/manage one.....

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22 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

If it's "generic" then there would be no "legally permissible" selling price as there would be no organization or brand owner to set/manage one.....

That is an interesting theory you have there.  Bill may or may not opt to set you straight...

 

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43 minutes ago, Wess said:

Great bait Bill!! My answer is “$1.00 higher than the lowest legally permissible selling price in each market.”

And in true grass roots fashion you will never guess what I sailed last night, against what, or the results. But it was fun and in true Laser grass roots spirit. Actually a bit too grass roots for my taste but still fun to knock the rust off.

#DefundILCA

#TheLaserClass

I don't understand your "legally permissible" comment for a generic boat. But would you think $6500 would be a reasonable amount to spend on a brand new Laser (or whatever) that wasn't ILCA legal?

I will never guess, eh? Well if that's the case I better start alphabetically. A Scow?

#LessWess

#MoreILCABuilders

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is an interesting theory you have there.  Bill may or may not opt to set you straight...

 

It appears its "not."  Oh well he had some good bait even if he didn't realize what it was. 

the-laser-class_logo-png.png

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

It appears its "not."  Oh well he had some good bait even if he didn't realize what it was. 

the-laser-class_logo-png.png

You lost me on all this. But you didn't answer my question along the way. Maybe I wasn't clear.

What would you pay for a brand new generic Laser/ILCA?

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Just now, Bill5 said:

Thanks, Tiller. I thought the difference would be a lot more. 

The difference in the last few months does seem to have shrunk with the ILCA price dropping a bit and the Laser price increasing a lot.

For what it's worth, the price for an RS Aero on the Boat Locker website is $9,090 - or $590 more than an ILCA from Colie. 

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

The difference in the last few months does seem to have shrunk with the ILCA price dropping a bit and the Laser price increasing a lot.

For what it's worth, the price for an RS Aero on the Boat Locker website is $9,090 - or $590 more than an ILCA from Colie. 

I imagine the Aero is worth $9,090. Hope more people by them - it would be nice to have another large fleet of single-handers. 

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I just did some math based on the PSA website published pricing on their website and converted then to USD. If I convert the price of a new ILCA 7 it comes out at USD8,000, so let's say 6% to get them here.

PSA advertise a completely fitted hull only for USD4570, so let's call it USD4850 landed. You can then hit Intensity and fit it up with all the turbo gizmos, non-ILCA spars (comp mast), Mk 2 sail, carbon tiller, non ILCA foils etc. for about $2,000. So an ILCA legal hull and non ILCA everything else for under $7,000. If one is so inclined. 

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9 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I just did some math based on the PSA website published pricing on their website and converted then to USD. If I convert the price of a new ILCA 7 it comes out at USD8,000, so let's say 6% to get them here.

PSA advertise a completely fitted hull only for USD4570, so let's call it USD4850 landed. You can then hit Intensity and fit it up with all the turbo gizmos, non-ILCA spars (comp mast), Mk 2 sail, carbon tiller, non ILCA foils etc. for about $2,000. So an ILCA legal hull and non ILCA everything else for under $7,000. If one is so inclined. 

I think these guys are the first to ever offer "hull only" deals.  Kinda cool for the sailor that wants a new hull for the big events and a "kick around" hull for the club stuff.

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48 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Current prices for ILCAs from PSA and real Lasers from LaserPerformance at a couple of random dealers in the north-east.

1311840295_ScreenShot2020-08-12at10_32_32AM.thumb.png.5cba038dc13281a2606ac29fe0b894d4.png2054540522_ScreenShot2020-08-12at10_33_09AM.thumb.png.2155b7d1158d47c3d651d17510be7940.png

Interesting to see NA prices have dropped $ 1,000.00 in 6 months.  Bring on the new builders and competitive marketplace!

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41 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I think these guys are the first to ever offer "hull only" deals.  Kinda cool for the sailor that wants a new hull for the big events and a "kick around" hull for the club stuff.

In the UK LP offer a Laser hull only for £2295 and Sailboats offer an ILCA hull for £3600.  Full boats are £3867.60 vs £5950.

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

You lost me on all this. But you didn't answer my question along the way. Maybe I wasn't clear.

What would you pay for a brand new generic Laser/ILCA?

I did answer Bill. For me it’s a hypothetical as I would not buy anything right now. Too much uncertainty. I will be buying a new boat once things settle but unsure which yet and until things shake out it’s hard to put a value on any of them. If buying an ILCA it would be an Ovi most likely but I hope to avoid ILCA. Would prefer a Laser but again too soon to commit. 

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

In the UK LP offer a Laser hull only for £2295 and Sailboats offer an ILCA hull for £3600.  Full boats are £3867.60 vs £5950.

Is that a recent offering or has it been that way a while?

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19 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Is that a recent offering or has it been that way a while?

A few months now I think.  I think it’s understandable there will be aggressive pricing from LP for a few months at least, but Ovi compete on quality not price - no point joining a race to the bottom.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

A few months now I think.  I think it’s understandable there will be aggressive pricing from LP for a few months at least, but Ovi compete on quality not price - no point joining a race to the bottom.

Wait?  What?  How do you compete on quality and not price when... didn't ILCA say... all the boats are supposed to be the exact same, built following the same construction manual, and subject to frequent and intensive on site inspections from ILCA and WS?

Unless you happen to be PSA and then you can do whatever you want until caught LOL :lol:

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27 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Give me the same ingredients as Gordon Ramsay and my dish won’t be as tasty!

lpe is unrestricted and can build their lasers however they want.

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56 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Give me the same ingredients as Gordon Ramsay and my dish won’t be as tasty!

PSA rewrote that cookbook it seems. Apparently they wanted the peaks to be firmer LOL.

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47 minutes ago, VWAP said:

lpe is unrestricted and can build their lasers however they want.

I still think they somehow believe there will re a reconciliation. If not, why would they not do the things in terms of building them that everybody keeps saying could be easily done? Better and cheaper everything is what many people think - it's just been ILCA that have been making everything so expensive. 

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21 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I still think they somehow believe there will re a reconciliation. If not, why would they not do the things in terms of building them that everybody keeps saying could be easily done? Better and cheaper everything is what many people think - it's just been ILCA that have been making everything so expensive. 

I suppose they don’t want them to perform any differently with their openness to old Lasers as well as ILCAs....

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36 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

What if LP franchises a Laser builder in NA??  

Nothing stopping them. But I bet they don’t... 

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There seems to have been more recent activity in the LP versus Kirby court case with further judgements posted on the plainsite system, but not available publicly that I can find. Any lawyers here with Pacer access who could comment? @MR.CLEAN?
 

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23 hours ago, Wess said:

Great bait Bill!! My answer is “$1.00 higher than the lowest legally permissible selling price in each market.”

Unless you can radically change the specifications, all builders who attempt this would go under in months.

DRC

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14 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I still think they somehow believe there will re a reconciliation. If not, why would they not do the things in terms of building them that everybody keeps saying could be easily done? Better and cheaper everything is what many people think - it's just been ILCA that have been making everything so expensive. 

You are confounding two separate thoughts there.

Firstly, yes, ILCA are making ILCAs expensive by a.) creating a monopoly for PSA for the past year (going on two), b.) adding a crap ton of fees to boats, and c.) changing the gear and adding complexity such as new rigs etc...

Secondly, yes people have said the boats could be made better and cheaper using modern materials and methods.  But people saying it don't make it true.  Kinda like ILCA saying they would have new builders soon well over a year ago, or that there would be a NA builder, or that boats would be cheaper, or that they would disclose all the fees... or many other ILCA leadership lies.  But in fact none of that was true.  Same for the cheaper boat from modern materials/methods myth.  Better... yes but then they ain't equal.  Cheaper? I claim no expertise here but given the volume I have to wonder if there are any significant COGs saving to be had from different materials or methods.  Likely yes if a much larger volume of boats was being sold but at today's low volumes I have my doubts.

 

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7 minutes ago, JimC said:

The irony is strong in this one...

Joke all you want and go ahead and bet against me but...

My second or so post on this thread said PSA would be your new overlord and for more than 500 days now I was right.

I said boats would be more expensive not less and I was right.

I said LPE would be gone and I was right.

I said ILCA would pile on fees and fund themselves through boat fees since they give grass roots sailors no reason to join and I was right.

I said the class would fracture and split and I was right.

I said there would not be a NA ILCA builder and I was right.

God I love this place.  Face it...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Joke all you want and go ahead and bet against me but...

My second or so post on this thread said PSA would be your new overlord and for more than 500 days now I was right.

I said boats would be more expensive not less and I was right.

I said LPE would be gone and I was right.

I said ILCA would pile on fees and fund themselves through boat fees since they give grass roots sailors no reason to join and I was right.

I said the class would fracture and split and I was right.

I said there would not be a NA ILCA builder and I was right.

God I love this place.  Face it...

 

Congratulations! How do I nominate you for the Dinghy Anarchy Hall of Fame? But...

- You can buy a cheap Laser from LPE, so #s 2 and 3 are wrong. 

- ..."pile on fees and fund themselves through boat fees since they give grass roots sailors no reason to join..." doesn't make sense.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Congratulations! How do I nominate you for the Dinghy Anarchy Hall of Fame? But...

- You can buy a cheap Laser from LPE, so #s 2 and 3 are wrong. 

- ..."pile on fees and fund themselves through boat fees since they give grass roots sailors no reason to join..." doesn't make sense.

OK - reading the "pile on fees" more closely, I get it. (I don't agree, but I think you know that...)

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5 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Congratulations! How do I nominate you for the Dinghy Anarchy Hall of Fame? But...

- You can buy a cheap Laser from LPE, so #s 2 and 3 are wrong. 

- ..."pile on fees and fund themselves through boat fees since they give grass roots sailors no reason to join..." doesn't make sense.

Oh what a tangled web you weave. You must be close to somebody on the ILCA leadership team to BS that blatantly. As you know full well #2 and 3 - all of them in fact - are directed at the ILCA lemmings. And both statements... all the statements are factual. For purposes of an ILCA lemming LPE is gone and ILCAs are more expensive not less as was the claim. 
 

And for that I am owed rum. 

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Oh what a tangled web you weave. You must be close to somebody on the ILCA leadership team to BS that blatantly. As you know full well #2 and 3 - all of them in fact - are directed at the ILCA lemmings. And both statements... all the statements are factual. For purposes of an ILCA lemming LPE is gone and ILCAs are more expensive not less as was the claim. 
 

And for that I am owed rum. 

No - nobody close at ILCA. I was at the same regatta as Andy Roy three times - twice in the seventies and once in the 80's. But he wouldn't know me if I jumped out of his duffle bag. And I exchanged 3 or 4 emails with Tracey a while back. But I don't think I will see a Christmas card from him. I am actually closer to you and Tiller than anybody there!

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10 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

No - nobody close at ILCA. I was at the same regatta as Andy Roy three times - twice in the seventies and once in the 80's. But he wouldn't know me if I jumped out of his duffle bag. And I exchanged 3 or 4 emails with Tracey a while back. But I don't think I will see a Christmas card from him. I am actually closer to you and Tiller than anybody there!

That's sad. I must remember to send you a Christmas card.

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16 hours ago, Wess said:

You must be close to somebody on the ILCA leadership team to BS that blatantly. 

For purposes of an ILCA lemming LPE is gone and ILCAs are more expensive not less as was the claim. 

And for that I am owed rum. 

I know both Andy and Tracy.  Competed against both in Masters events.  Shared a bunk house in Wrightsville beach with Tracy, Fred, Eric and several others in early 2000.  One of the most fun regattas I ever attended!  From my D12 Secretary position I communicate with Andy and Tracy on a fairly regular basis.  I don't know if Andy would know my face, but Tracy likely would.  I make my judgements from what/who I know and what/who I trust and I do my best to make my judgements with as much information as possible.  

So, there's that.

For the 1 millionth time.  The class has been through a ton of change.  That kind of change takes time.  We are just beginning to get the ILCA, (or whatever we'll be know as) turned around with new builders in place.  LPE will continue to do their best to disrupt that.  

Decisions have been made, voted on and directions have been chosen.  If you're unhappy with it vote with your feet and/or wallet.

One thing for sure is no amount of bitching by non-class members is going to change any of it.

I'll still happily have a rum drink with you Wess.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I know both Andy and Tracy.  Competed against both in Masters events.  Shared a bunk house in Wrightsville beach with Tracy, Fred, Eric and several others in early 2000.  One of the most fun regattas I ever attended!  From my D12 Secretary position I communicate with Andy and Tracy on a fairly regular basis.  I don't know if Andy would know my face, but Tracy likely would.  I make my judgements from what/who I know and what/who I trust and I do my best to make my judgements with as much information as possible.  

So, there's that.

For the 1 millionth time.  The class has been through a ton of change.  That kind of change takes time.  We are just beginning to get the ILCA, (or whatever we'll be know as) turned around with new builders in place.  LPE will continue to do their best to disrupt that.  

Decisions have been made, voted on and directions have been chosen.  If you're unhappy with it vote with your feet and/or wallet.

One thing for sure is no amount of bitching by non-class members is going to change any of it.

I'll still happily have a rum drink with you Wess.

I met Tracy on the street in Cadiz and I met Andy at a party in Australia. Based on that I totally trust everything they both say.

I met Fred and Eric on a beach in Mexico 20 years ago but I have never sent either of them a Christmas card.

To the best of my knowledge I have never met Wess or RobbieB or Bill5 so my default assumption is that they are all either 400lb 27-year-olds posting from their parents' basements or Russian trolls.

I am a proud member of The Laser Class.

Lawnmowers are notoriously unreliable.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

I met Tracy on the street in Cadiz and I met Andy at a party in Australia. Based on that I totally trust everything they both say.

I met Fred and Eric on a beach in Mexico 20 years ago but I have never sent either of them a Christmas card.

To the best of my knowledge I have never met Wess or RobbieB or Bill5 so my default assumption is that they are all either 400lb 27-year-olds posting from their parents' basements or Russian trolls.

I am a proud member of The Laser Class.

Lawnmowers are notoriously unreliable.

Hey! I’ve lost quite a bit of weight!

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And gotten younger and free rent.

And for the... um... 504th time @RobbieB those buffoons handed PSA a monopoly (and endless royalty stream), lied to the class endlessly, piled fees onto boats and non members buying boats, drove boat prices way up, couldn't give a shit about grass roots, NA and EU while they suck up to China and Asia and the Olympics/WS, and are the worst thing to happen to Ian Bruce's vision ever.  Oh and you owe me rum as does Tracy.  :P

PS - I did vote with my feet as did the vast majority of people who sail and race Laser but don't join the pickpockets running ILCA!

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

And gotten younger and free rent.

And for the... um... 504th time @RobbieB those buffoons handed PSA a monopoly (and endless royalty stream), lied to the class endlessly, piled fees onto boats and non members buying boats, drove boat prices way up, couldn't give a shit about grass roots, NA and EU while they suck up to China and Asia and the Olympics/WS, and are the worst thing to happen to Ian Bruce's vision ever.  Oh and you owe me rum as does Tracy.  :P

PS - I did vote with my feet as did the vast majority of people who sail and race Laser but don't join the pickpockets running ILCA!

This account's daily repetition of the same ludicrous claims is making me tend to believe in the Russian troll hypothesis rather than the fat boy in basement theory.

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Hey if they can repeat their lies and not pay their debts I can repeat my truths. Besides it’s not repetition. I count the days quite carefully LOL. Five hundred and four!! 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

To the best of my knowledge I have never met Wess or RobbieB or Bill5 so my default assumption is that they are all either 400lb 27-year-olds posting from their parents' basements or Russian trolls.

Thanks Tiller I needed a good laugh! Whew!

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58 minutes ago, tillerman said:

This account's daily repetition of the same ludicrous claims is making me tend to believe in the Russian troll hypothesis rather than the fat boy in basement theory.

Russian troll would demand vodka.  Fat boy in basement would want weed.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

...and are the worst thing to happen to Ian Bruce's vision ever.  

Maybe part of the vision, Trimaran Troller. But as a two time Olympian and two time Prince of Wales winner who chose to work with a couple other Olympians (Kirby and Fogh), I would surmise he would have been pretty thrilled with the little boat landing in the Olympics. 

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5 hours ago, torrid said:

Russian troll would demand vodka.  Fat boy in basement would want weed.

Rum, vodka, and weed? Sounds uh... interesting. 

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14 hours ago, RobbieB said:

One thing for sure is no amount of bitching by non-class members is going to change any of it.

Touch man, touche.

Of all the bitching all sorts of people (myself included!) have done in this thread, it's just noise on some levels.
I think we're all very passionate about the boat, and a lot of us are sad seeing the class now be a '1 and a Half Design.'

But, here we are.

It''s a good reminder though RobbieB, well said, no matter how much I agree/disagree with you in general.

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FYI: Ovington boats should  be in stock this Fall, on both coasts.

Not sure if Devotti will find anyone to bring in their product, so, imagine North America will have PSA and Ovington to chose from.
I know what I would pick, but, I'll be curious what the market thinks, especially how the PSA boats look compared to a much more high tech and professional building company like Ovington  

(Yes, I've toured both production facilities)

Maybe the Chinese/Thai builders will make it to NA... although I'm not so sure -  we'll see what they pull off over the Winter.

 

And, no, LP is not going anywhere.  I think we'll see a lot of Lasers, available at 30-40% off the ILCA price, available in relative quantity, in 2021.

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On 8/14/2020 at 12:30 PM, Wess said:

And for the... um... 504th time @RobbieB those buffoons handed PSA a monopoly (and endless royalty stream), lied to the class endlessly, piled fees onto boats and non members buying boats, drove boat prices way up, couldn't give a shit about grass roots, NA and EU while they suck up to China and Asia and the Olympics/WS, and are the worst thing to happen to Ian Bruce's vision ever.  Oh and you owe me rum as does Tracy.  :P

PS - I did vote with my feet as did the vast majority of people who sail and race Laser but don't join the pickpockets running ILCA!

Something should be done about it.

 

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7 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Something should be done about it.

 

About what? Wess’s continual venomous rant? I have tried, but he is holding firm.

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On 8/15/2020 at 12:56 PM, tillerman said:

Something should be done about it.

 

Well I would suggest something other than posting on some internet website. Does anyone seriously think anything you type here matters? Good grief people it’s funny, it’s stupid, it’s occasionally insightful and informative but if anyone actually thinks anything they say here will change anything... yikes!

This is the place you come for a laugh and a break from the drudgery of the day. 


ILCA is the place you go and club you join when you want to support the Olympics, China, globe trotting leaders, hidden fees, and spending almost twice as much for the exact same boat. 

#DefundILCA

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16 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well I would suggest something other than posting on some internet website. Does anyone seriously think anything you type here matters? Good grief people it’s funny, it’s stupid, it’s occasionally insightful and informative but if anyone actually thinks anything they say here will change anything..

True!

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24 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

True!

You mean stuff doesn't get done about it when I post, "Something must be done about it?" 

I am shocked that the universe is so cruel. Something must be done about it.

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2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

You mean stuff doesn't get done about it when I post, "Something must be done about it?" 

I am shocked that the universe is so cruel. Something must be done about it.

I think if y’all just defund ILCA everything will be OK in the world. Covid will be gone and LASERS will rule supreme!

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I don’t know that looks like a bit of a cluster-fuck to me. Time to spin....

215315 is smiling like they have covid immunity 

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16 minutes ago, Wess said:

I don’t know that looks like a bit of a cluster-fuck to me. Time to spin....

Stuff happens in big fleets of identical boats. 

The point of the photo is that ILCA is doing something about encouraging young sailors to enjoy high level competition in LASER 4.7s.

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9 minutes ago, tillerman said:

The point of the photo is that ILCA is doing something about encouraging young sailors to enjoy high level competition in LASER 4.7s.

Europe has been for some time. Haven’t checked the fleet but likely 300-400 boats at that event. 

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

Those are ILCAs so they likely ain’t identical. Especially if PSA made some of them LOL

Look more closely. Some are ILCAs and some are LASERs.

Isn't that a beautiful sight? LASERs and ILCAs racing together.

Some people say the class is fractured but how can that be when they are happily racing together?

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Look more closely. Some are ILCAs and some are LASERs.

Isn't that a beautiful sight? LASERs and ILCAs racing together.

Some people say the class is fractured but how can that be when they are happily racing together?

What's that old Coke jingle?  "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony...."?

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

What's that old Coke jingle?  "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony...."?


And how appropriate for the LASER world - a commercial from 1971. It's the real thing!

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I don't know. Its been at least 507 days since anyone has sung that in ILCA land.  And if current politics and and even virus response are telling us anything its that people are adopting more and more extreme views and are less tolerant of each other and any difference.

Anyway, does ILCA have a builder in NA up and running and fully approved yet?  How about in Europe?

I call this game lets see who like to lie...  :P

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

And if current politics and and even virus response are telling us anything its that people are adopting more and more extreme views and are less tolerant of each other and any difference.

Another unfortunate truth.  We've even experienced this at our YC this year.  Two different crowds, with different views, intolerant of one another and unable to have civil discussion regarding differences.  We're living in an F'ed up world these days....

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Ok... enough of the lets play nice bullshit.   I want to buy the world a coke.....   sssh.       Different views.   ... Not a problem so long as everyone is crystal clear on what the shared value is on the process of making a decision.... ie... we both value small d  democracy and vote the issue or what ever we agreed to do.

Why do you elevate tolerance as if it were some virtue.  and by being   "intolerant of one another".  finding that something is wrong.    Tolerance is  " capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina. 2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own. b : the act of allowing something : toleration. "    Tolerance is not virtuous...It is just a human behavior......it describes the act of allowing something..... 

The history of public tolerance as a virtue is ugly.   slavery, Nazism, misogyny.  The behavior of tolerance is valued in the academy when ideas like slavery are debated and examined and tested against the values of yesterday and today. Tolerance in that space is essential to the academy's mission of creating new knowledge and insight through various intellectual methods of inquiry.   Tolerance is not a value that you would apply in your life  ...   would you tolerate  unreasonable restrictions on the American civil right of "free speech"?  What is the role of tolerance in the public square?   NONE... I don't tolerate american nazis.... I accept that a measurable number of americans subscribe to nazi values and exercise my civil rights to publicly oppose these people under our rule of law that allows them to protest and march.

comments like.... buy the world a coke..... "can't we all get along" Rodney King or...   "there are good people on both sides" Donald Trump..... are feckless at best and evil at worst. 

and another pet peeve.... celebrating  "civil discourse"      IMO, civil discourse is only useful to the degree that it makes things work....  obviously, the civil discourse on police choke holds over the last 5 years has not worked....  action taken seems to be zero.  civil unrest followed.   ...  so much for civil discourse in this area.     I wouldn't hold up civil discourse as valuable unless action is taken using the civil mechanisms available to us.    What is the problem with overstating civil discourse as a value????  The House and Senate created elaborate rules to dictate civil discourse....  eg... "my esteemed colleague in lieu of   that ass from MD.   hardly what you probably mean by "civil discourse" but the rules are needed to make the legislature work as a legislative body.  Plus 1 for civil discourse...   MLK's discourse was not viewed as remotely civil by the segregationists who fought him in the public square.       Another fun example,    Chevy Chase muttering... "Jane! you ignorant slut" in SNL skits.....    IMO, hardly civil discourse...   In these contrasting examples "civil"   describes "acceptable" speech rules that those in your group (that you define and agree with) accept....    MLK and Jane were .... um...    Not in the group and found no reason to engage in "civil discourse" because it did not work.   The US legislatures find that "the honorable xxx" works.    There is value in discourse.....   the civil part is just bullshit unless it makes things work.

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