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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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On 1/29/2020 at 10:39 AM, LMI said:

All this talk about carbon uppers.  What is wrong with you people.  Laser does not stand for

Lets

Ass-rape

Sailors at

Every

Register

The Laser was born as an affordable OD boat and a SMOD class for the masses.  The boat won a contest for under $1000 OD dinghies.  Now you pay almost that much for just a carbon top section and talk about boats costing an order of magnitude more.  How is this good for juniors.  How is this good for sailors.  How is this good for anyone except for builders who want more control and more $s.  The original top section worked well for decades at a fraction of the costs of the carbon upper.  You people have thrown away the basic premise of the boat and class are killing what used to be the best OD dinghy in world. 

You can't even call it a Laser anymore.  What is an ILCA except for a more expensive copycat boat and class that sold out the original concepts of both Kirby and Bruce.

Just saw this for the first time

It got a chortle 

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1 hour ago, aroy210677 said:

Wow. You truly are an idiot, in addition to being a FR sycophant (or on his payroll, perhaps ?)

What part of: sailors "joining" TLC (for free) solely so they could access (for free) online Laser seminars from Olympic sailors, is a "viable" option than ILCA?  How many people on that list do you think are long time and current ILCA members, only signed up to watch the free seminars, and have absolutely no interest in the fake LC? 

 

I know half of the Australians on that list, they signed up for the webinars :p

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3 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

Wow. You truly are an idiot, in addition to being a FR sycophant (or on his payroll, perhaps ?)

What part of: sailors "joining" TLC (for free) solely so they could access (for free) online Laser seminars from Olympic sailors, is a "viable" option than ILCA?  How many people on that list do you think are long time and current ILCA members, only signed up to watch the free seminars, and have absolutely no interest in the fake LC? 

 

And maybe they only signed to ILCA membership so they could enter an event?  Not sure what your point is here, somehow ILCA membership is more worthy because it costs more?  
For someone who represents ILCA you need to work on your public communication skills, they are a bit of a turn off at the moment to be honest.

The solution remains obvious.  Buy an Aero if you want mass market racing, an OK if want truly international racing or an old Laser if you want cheap racing. 

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6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

And maybe they only signed to ILCA membership so they could enter an event?  Not sure what your point is here, somehow ILCA membership is more worthy because it costs more?  
For someone who represents ILCA you need to work on your public communication skills, they are a bit of a turn off at the moment to be honest.

The solution remains obvious.  Buy an Aero if you want mass market racing, an OK if want truly international racing or an old Laser if you want cheap racing. 

Are there OK's in the US?

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8 hours ago, sosoomii said:

The solution remains obvious.  Buy an Aero if you want mass market racing, an OK if want truly international racing or an old Laser if you want cheap racing. 

Aero? Looks to be a fantastic boat, faster and more modern than the Laser/ILCA. But they have "mass-marketed" less than 4000 boats in 6 years. More like "modest marketing" at best. (Why didn't all those TLC guys jump to Aeros anyway?) For whatever reason, outside the UK it hasn't really hit the mark. Like Kaiser Chiefs. 

OK Dinghy? Awesome boat. Sailed one as a kid for a summer pre-Laser. Absolutely loved it. 2019 Worlds - 8 countries represented. 2019 Laser Standard Worlds - 43 countries represented. Prefer the OK as a boat, but for "truly international racing" it is not even close.

So nothing obvious here. And what, actually, is the solution for? Some seem to think the ILCA/Laser should still have teak tillers, 3 part vangs and cost a couple grand. Some think there are frictional costs within the class that are disturbing enough to make them quit. Some question ILCA's efficacy. Some think the Olympics was/is a mistake. Some have the ability to speak to the departed and make claims about soiling Ian Bruce's vision. For me, the worst thing that happened was the radial. The fleet cut in half and there were no girls to talk to. 

So have at 'er. Buy a different boat. Not sure what that actually solves, other than personal angst I suppose. But even that won't work. Lots of ex and non Laser/ILCA sailors seem to get pretty fired up on this thread as well. 

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9 hours ago, sosoomii said:

 

The solution remains obvious.  Buy an Aero if you want mass market racing

I'd love to know where all these Aeros are hiding in the UK. I'm still waiting to see one sailing!

Where I sail on the River Blackwater on the East Coast, we have 5 clubs in fairly close proximity & not one of them shows an Aero in their race results.

So at our club the choice is simple, Laser, Radial or Solo if you want close racing.

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4 minutes ago, Martin T said:

I'd love to know where all these Aeros are hiding in the UK. I'm still waiting to see one sailing... where I sail on the River Blackwater on the East Coast

 

The results of the RS Aero UK Inland Championship at Rutland last weekend list some of clubs at which RS Aeros have been "hiding"  in the UK.

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3737
 

Full Results - 8 races, 1 discard
 
RS Aero 5                          
Rank Sail Helm Club Cat. R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 Total Nett
1st 3042 Jonathan Bailey Grafham WSC Y 4 -8 4 4 3 3 1 1 28 20
2nd 1312 Andrew Frost Sutton Bingham SC   3 4 1 5 1 5 -14 2 35 21
3rd 2697 Mike Wood RAF SA/ Draycote WSC   6 1 -8 1 2 8 3 3 32 24
4th 3303 SammyIsaacs-Jnson Maidenhead SC   2 3 7 8 5 4 -17 4 50 33
5th 2966 David Peaty Draycote WSC Y 5 7 3 9 -13 1 7 8 53 40
6th 2077 Tom Ahlheid Frensham Pond SC Y 1 9 6 7 9 -12 8 12 64 52
7th 1533 Ted Ball Draycote WSC Y 12 5 2 2 15 -19 2 18 75 56
8th 2071 Sam Blaker Benfleet/Thorpe BayYC Y 10 6 10 6 8 -15 4 14 73 58
9th 2356 David Calder Burghfield SC Y 7 2 15 3 -19 11 13 10 80 61
10th 1566 Abby Hire RoyalLymYC/LymTownSC Y L 9 12 5 15 4 2 19 -25 91 66
11th 3351 Tim Rush Notts County SC M -15 10 13 11 10 9 6 13 87 72
12th 3073 Alice Lucy Rutland SC L 11 -18 9 13 7 13 11 9 91 73
13th 1672 Fergus Pye Draycote WSC Y 8 11 12 10 -21 17 18 5 102 81
14th 1568 Caitlin Atkin Maidenhead SC L 17 13 14 14 17 6 -24 16 121 97
15th 2214 Yana Skvortsova Island Barn RSC Y L (DNC) 15 24 18 14 7 5 17 130 100
16th 3330 Iona Willows Dorchester/LymTownSC L 13 17 16 12 11 -23 9 22 123 100
17th 1893 Alice Davis GreatMoor/DraycoteWSC Y L -21 19 19 20 6 14 12 11 122 101
18th 1301 Oskar Shepherd Great Moor SC Y 18 16 -25 21 12 16 15 15 138 113
19th 2141 Antony Clay Draycote WSC   16 21 21 19 -23 10 21 7 138 115
20th 1181 Mark Ripley Paignton SC Y 20 -24 11 16 18 20 16 21 146 122
21st 2195 Joseph Blaker Benfleet YC Y 23 14 20 (OCS) 16 24 10 24 161 131
22nd 3019 Jake Faithfull SouthCaernarvonshireYC Y 25 23 23 17 -26 22 26 6 168 142
23rd 1888 Abigail Larr Northampton SC Y L 19 22 18 22 -24 21 23 19 168 144
24th 3301 Emily Davis GreatMoor/DraycoteWSC L 14 25 22 24 20 -27 20 23 175 148
25th 2841 Nath PritchardJones Leigh and Lowton SC Y 24 -26 17 25 25 26 25 20 188 162
26th 1999 Gary Walton Draycote WSC M 22 20 26 23 -27 25 22 26 191 164
27th 2442 Helen Bailey Grafham WSC L (DNC) DNC DNC DNC 22 18 27 27 214 184
28th 2929 Elliot Toms Fowey Gallants SC Y (DNC) DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC 240 210
28th 3297 Esme Barraclough Yorkshire Dales SC Y L (DNC) DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC 240 210
                             
RS Aero 7                          
Rank Sail Helm Club Cat. R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 Total Nett
1st 2719 Craig Williamson Staunton Harold SC   1 (DNC) 2 2 2 1 1 4 50 13
2nd 73 Noah Rees Lymington Town SC   2 1 1 1 -9 5 2 6 27 18
3rd 136 Richard Pye Draycote WSC   5 -8 6 7 5 2 3 2 38 30
4th 3000 Steve Norbury Warsash SC   6 6 4 4 10 3 7 (UFD) 77 40
5th 2738 Spike Daniels Hayling Island SC   9 2 3 6 13 7 5 (UFD) 82 45
6th 3047 Andy Kilburn Lymington Town SC   13 (RET) 10 8 1 10 9 3 91 54
7th 2553 Mark Riddington Emsworth Slipper SC   14 5 5 -17 15 4 6 5 71 54
8th 2922 Andrew Wishart Broadwater SC   7 3 (OCS) 3 4 UFD 4 1 96 59
9th 3286 John Derbyshire Emsworth SC M 3 10 7 11 6 11 14 -18 80 62
10th 3342 Jack Miller Felpham SC   12 4 8 5 -22 9 12 12 84 62
11th 3127 Fred Barry Warsash SC Y 10 9 9 9 21 13 (DSQ) 9 117 80
12th 3043 Philip Bailey Grafham WSC   8 11 12 12 24 6 (UFD) 14 124 87
13th 1742 Edward Tuite-Dalton Draycote WSC M 20 14 16 -26 8 18 8 8 118 92
14th 3032 Thomas Penty Beaver SC   15 15 -25 21 7 14 15 17 129 104
15th 1603 Rob Ahlheid Frensham Pond SC   11 16 18 15 16 19 -21 10 126 105
16th 2746 David Blaker Thorpe Bay YC M 19 18 20 16 11 -23 11 15 133 110
17th 1400 Gary Fowler Grafham WSC M 16 12 14 13 23 15 18 -26 137 111
18th 1135 James Smaggasgale Hillingdon OAC Y 25 23 -27 24 20 8 10 7 144 117
19th 1747 Andrew Cooney Broadwater SC M 24 19 19 -27 18 12 13 13 145 118
20th 2603 Eleanor Craig Draycote WSC L 4 7 11 10 14 (UFD) UFD DNC 157 120
21st 3341 Bill Knights Hunts/BrancasterStaithe   22 13 13 19 26 26 (UFD) 16 172 135
22nd 61* Cathy Partington (6) Leigh and Lowton SC L 18 20 21 20 -25 20 16 21 161 136
23rd 2039 Karl Morley Burton SC   -26 24 15 18 19 22 23 20 167 141
24th 3018 Robin Caiger Bough Beech SC   30 26 23 23 -32 24 22 11 191 159
25th 1832 Adam Smith Draycote WSC   -32 22 26 22 17 29 19 24 191 159
26th 2515 Iain Soars Frensham Pond SC   23 21 24 25 -29 17 28 22 189 160
27th 2726 Dominic Smith Ripon SC   21 27 17 14 31 30 25 (DNC) 202 165
28th 3196 Steph Harding Hollowell SC L (DNC) DNC DNC DNC 3 16 17 19 203 166
29th 2932 Pete Blakey Draycote WSC M 17 (RET) DNC DNC 12 21 20 23 204 167
30th 1926 Sarah Tuite-Dalton Draycote WSC M L 29 28 22 (RET) 27 27 26 28 224 187
31st 3020 Daniel Kemble Grafham WSC   27 25 28 28 -33 28 29 27 225 192
32nd 2731 Andrew Green Draycote WSC   28 17 (DNC) DNC 28 25 24 RET 233 196
33rd 1365 Steven Angell Draycote WSC   31 (DNF) DNC DNC 30 UFD 27 29 265 228
34th 1308 Ellen Campbell Draycote WSC L (DNC) DNC DNC DNC 34 31 30 25 268 231
35th 1415 Keith Escritt Yorkshire Dales SC M (DNC) DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC 296 259
35th 1551 Paul Etheridge Lymington Town SC M (DNC) DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC DNC 296 259
*RS Aero 6 prototype rig being trialed racing alongside the RS Aero 7s on an equal basis.            
                             
RS Aero 9                          
Rank Sail Helm Club Cat. R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 Total Nett
1st 3193 Peter Barton Lymington Town SC   5 2 1 1 1 -11 2 2 25 14
2nd 1586 Tim Hire RoyalLymYC/LymTownSC Y 1 4 2 3 7 1 1 -8 27 19
3rd 3174 Greg Bartlett Starcross YC   3 1 3 4 -11 2 4 3 31 20
4th 2955 Liam Willis Lymington Town SC   2 3 4 2 4 4 -11 9 39 28
5th 3183 Dominic Hall Hayling Island SC   8 -9 5 6 3 3 5 1 40 31
6th 2891 Chris Larr Northampton SC   4 5 -9 8 5 6 6 4 47 38
7th 3023 Richard Watsham Starcross YC / RNSA   7 8 8 7 -12 5 9 7 63 51
8th 1590 Chris Hatton Bowmoor SC   6 10 (RET) DNC 2 7 3 6 80 57
9th 3144 Matt Thursfield Chelmarsh SC   -11 6 10 9 6 9 7 11 69 58
10th 3198 David Cherrill Broadwater SC M 10 12 11 13 10 10 8 -16 90 74
11th 2001 Simon Geyman Datchet / Lym Town SC   18 17 7 5 8 12 (UFD) 12 102 79
12th 3130 Rorden Cohen Frampton-on-Severn SC   (OCS) 7 6 10 18 15 10 15 104 81
13th 2935 Phil White Bowmoor SC   12 11 15 15 -19 14 12 5 103 84
14th 1306 Jack Fraser Draycote WSC   16 14 14 11 16 -18 13 14 116 98
15th 2581 Peter Craggs York Railway Institute SC   14 13 12 14 15 -19 17 13 117 98
16th 3294 Neil Crosby Bowmoor SC M 15 18 18 12 14 8 15 (DNC) 123 100
17th 3397 Matt Perkins Lymington Town SC   13 16 13 (DNC) 13 16 14 17 125 102
18th 2362 Sandy Day Loch Lomond SC M 9 15 16 (DNC) 9 17 18 DNC 130 107
19th 1218 Christopher Abbott Nottingham SC M 19 20 (RET) DNC 17 13 16 10 141 118
20th 1031 Stuart Philbey Datchet WSC   17 19 17 (DNC) DNC DNC DNC DNC 168 145


As for ones closer to home for you Martin, I do hear that RS Aeros have been hiding at Blackwater and Marconi sailing clubs so I hope you manage to spot one there soon!

561808836_ScreenShot2020-10-12at1_18_53PM.thumb.png.6df67f957f9ecda9ca142a56b89bd3b9.png
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Looking at that list it just goes to show how spread out they are around the country.

I had heard a rumour that there is one at Blackwater SC, but haven't seen it in the flesh yet.

My club is Harlow Blackwater SC, so most of our racing is held in the area to the south of Osea Island, so I will keep my eye out for the elusive Marconi SC one...lol

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Solo is a great class and a great boat but I have a real blind spot with them and I don’t know why. This boat should and would suit me perfectly but to be honest  I would rather stop sailing than even try one . I am such a sad old man ^_^:D

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Following the OK summer I referred to above, the local builder brought over a Solo mold and presold 8 of them to members of our club - one was mine and one was my dad's. I got my hands dirty as a 13 yr old in helping finish/rig mine. I learned a lot! Sailed it with glee for a year and then the Laser plague hit and crushed our little fleet. This was pre-internet so we didn't see the Laser coming here in the sailing backwoods... But all of a sudden I was racing in the biggest fleets I had ever seen! 

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11 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Following the OK summer I referred to above, the local builder brought over a Solo mold and presold 8 of them to members of our club - one was mine and one was my dad's. I got my hands dirty as a 13 yr old in helping finish/rig mine. I learned a lot! Sailed it with glee for a year and then the Laser plague hit and crushed our little fleet. This was pre-internet so we didn't see the Laser coming here in the sailing backwoods... But all of a sudden I was racing in the biggest fleets I had ever seen! 

I almost became a Solo sailor too. When I started sailing back in the UK in the early 1980s I wasn't sure what boat to buy. I went to a meeting for potential new members at my local sailing club where an enthusiastic Solo owner grabbed me and tried to persuade me to buy a Solo. I was almost sold on the idea until a colleague at work persuaded me to buy a Laser instead.

When I moved to the US about 10 years later, I found myself in an area where the Sunfish was way more popular than the Laser so I took up sailing a Sunfish as well as the Laser. And then eventually, after another 25 years of sailing, I decided I was tired of the herd mentality and would jump to a new class to enjoy the experience of sailing a modern boat and helping to build a new class.

I wish I knew more about the psychology of why some people stick with one boat their whole lives, some own multiple different boats at the same time, and others move from class to class in their sailing lifetimes. I do get the logic of the argument of sailing the boat that is most popular locally. As they say, "If everybody is sailing bathtubs, then sail a bathtub." But bathwater gets cold if you stay in the bath too long...
 

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41 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I almost became a Solo sailor too. When I started sailing back in the UK in the early 1980s I wasn't sure what boat to buy. I went to a meeting for potential new members at my local sailing club where an enthusiastic Solo owner grabbed me and tried to persuade me to buy a Solo. I was almost sold on the idea until a colleague at work persuaded me to buy a Laser instead.

When I moved to the US about 10 years later, I found myself in an area where the Sunfish was way more popular than the Laser so I took up sailing a Sunfish as well as the Laser. And then eventually, after another 25 years of sailing, I decided I was tired of the herd mentality and would jump to a new class to enjoy the experience of sailing a modern boat and helping to build a new class.

I wish I knew more about the psychology of why some people stick with one boat their whole lives, some own multiple different boats at the same time, and others move from class to class in their sailing lifetimes. I do get the logic of the argument of sailing the boat that is most popular locally. As they say, "If everybody is sailing bathtubs, then sail a bathtub." But bathwater gets cold if you stay in the bath too long...
 

I like sailing/racing a lot of different boats, but can only afford to own one and with work/family time on the water is limited.  For those reasons I stick to what gives me the most enjoyment, biggest fleets and tightest competition in my area which is the Laser/ILCA.  Otherwise I love the J24, VX One, Hobie Wave, and some PHRF classics like the Pearson Flyer, S2 7.9, J29, J33 and a whole host of others.  The world is full of cool boats.  Sail what you love! (Just not an LP Laser, ;-) ).

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39 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

^ says more about sailing in the US than anything else.  America is a tier two nation in dinghy sailing. 

Meh. How many MC Scows are in Britain?

here in 'merica we trend toward consolidating OD classes; the venn diagram of Finn vs OK vs Laser sailors is a circle 

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MC Scow is a regional class - the OK is sailed widely from Norway to New Zealand. America’s loss being so parochial, but ‘twas ever thus.  Like baseball and American football.  

I don’t understand the Venn diagram comment :wacko: - a single circle as in it’s all the same sailors in each class?

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My take on the Laser Class:

Some people want to start a new international Laser Sailing organization.

****
my response:

I hope they do a super wonderful fantastic job and cause Laser sailing to boom worldwide 

****

Further:

I hope the threat of being displaced cause the ILCA to rise and provide serious competition 

 

****
final fantasy outcome :

After creating two associations and parallel games, each of which offers  thousands of sailing opportunities for millions of sailors , the two games merge snd their associations are consolidated under a single umbrella organization whose effectiveness results in singlehanded sailing becoming the world’s most available and played participatory sport. 
 

 

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7 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

After creating two associations and parallel games, each of which offers  thousands of sailing opportunities for millions of sailors , the two games merge snd their associations are consolidated under a single umbrella organization whose effectiveness results in singlehanded sailing becoming the world’s most available and played participatory sport.

The examples of boxing and darts don’t inspire hope there.  On the other hand the Aussie 14s and I14s merged okay.  How’s it working out for the 18s?

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

my response:

I hope they do a super wonderful fantastic job and cause Laser sailing to boom worldwide 

I dunno, Gouv. By the look of things, all TLC are trying to do is duplicate ILCA with (potentially) cheaper boats. And a builder that has a history of supporting Europe only. I can't see this going anywhere. 

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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

MC Scow is a regional class - the OK is sailed widely from Norway to New Zealand. America’s loss being so parochial, but ‘twas ever thus.  Like baseball and American football.  

I don’t understand the Venn diagram comment :wacko: - a single circle as in it’s all the same sailors in each class?

Perhaps worded poorly.

venn.png

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

****
final fantasy outcome :

After creating two associations and parallel games, each of which offers  thousands of sailing opportunities for millions of sailors , the two games merge snd their associations are consolidated under a single umbrella organization whose effectiveness results in singlehanded sailing becoming the world’s most available and played participatory sport. 
 

 

LOL, that's a good one!!!!

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     Currently, for the first time in 15 years, there is a possibility we may have a builder screaming, “LOOK AT MY WONDERFUL SAILING TOYS!!”

   Will one or the other groups who wishes to serve as our Class Association be screaming, “SAILING THESE TOYS IS THE BEST THING EVER!!!”

Will anybody be relentlessly inviting people to join that fun??  Will the class and builder help people find toys, playmates,  and places to go play? 
 

I sure hope one or both of the wannabe class organizations goes relentlessly after the right prize.

The goal should be:

We want to be known as the organization that caused sailing to boom. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

complete, sailable boats that aren't garden planters? Maybe five?

Probably more Contenders being actively raced 

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:


     Currently, for the first time in 15 years, there is a possibility we may have a builder screaming, “LOOK AT MY WONDERFUL SAILING TOYS!!”

   Will one or the other groups who wishes to serve as our Class Association be screaming, “SAILING THESE TOYS IS THE BEST THING EVER!!!”

Will anybody be relentlessly inviting people to join that fun??  Will the class and builder help people find toys, playmates,  and places to go play? 
 

I sure hope one or both of the wannabe class organizations goes relentlessly after the right prize.

The goal should be:

We want to be known as the organization that caused sailing to boom. 

 

 

with less than 6% of the TLC "Membership" being from the USA, you've got less chance of LP giving the US any focus compared to what they used to provide, that's even including all the members with fake DOB's and sail numbers :p

The state of the data they provided with their submission to Word Sailing is a little embarrassing to be honest, I personally expected better from LP's class association run by "Paid Professionals"

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On 10/11/2020 at 11:16 PM, aroy210677 said:

Wow. You truly are an idiot, in addition to being a FR sycophant (or on his payroll, perhaps ?)

What part of: sailors "joining" TLC (for free) solely so they could access (for free) online Laser seminars from Olympic sailors, is a "viable" option than ILCA?  How many people on that list do you think are long time and current ILCA members, only signed up to watch the free seminars, and have absolutely no interest in the fake LC? 

 

That's the best you got?  LOL; OK I am an idiot.  But oddly enough, of the well over 100,000 Laser sailors out there, only somewhere round about 10% stand with you and join ILCA.  Hell only ~1% even bothered to vote.  Maybe they know it doesn't matter.  Maybe they know all you care about is the elite, $s, and control of the game; not making it better. Maybe they think you sold out to PSA (on their payroll perhaps... to quote you?... and no I ain't on FR's).  But whatever the reason you think the 90% of Laser sailors that don't join ILCA are all idiots.  OK but perhaps that thinking is why ILCA fails to attract grass roots sailors.  Maybe why that is why fewer and fewer join.  Maybe that is why more and more boats use non class legal components and just don't care about your foolishness and greed.  You think I am in love with LPE.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I just hope they are better than the shit you shovel on the class.  In doing away with LPE you could have made things better for the class.  A real opportunity for a true transformation existed.  You could have done things that would have supported both the elite game and improved the grass roots game.  But instead you picked greed, control, and sold out to PSA.  So yea, this idiot is proud to not support ILCA anymore and glad to support The Laser Class.  Will it be better than ILCA?  I honestly doubt it but it sure can't be worse than what you have done. 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

of the well over 100,000 Laser sailors out there, only somewhere round about 10% stand with you and join ILCA.  

Would you like a moment to research the number of members as a proportion of the number of 'sailors' in the rest of the world's sailing classes?  I'll wait.

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11 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Would you like a moment to research the number of members as a proportion of the number of 'sailors' in the rest of the world's sailing classes?  I'll wait.

Another WS singlehanded class, the Sunfish, has 1200 members. 

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16 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Another WS singlehanded class, the Sunfish, has 1200 members. 

It's an old politicians trick to call out numbers as something awful despite having no comparison to the truly awful numbers the rest of the classes have.

here's one comparison I am familiar with.  The Melges 24 has sold 850-odd boats, with four-five "sailors" per boat (the class offers associate membership for crews).

Conservatively let's call it 800 boats, times four, or 3200 sailors.  There are 65 members in the Class or about 2 percent of current Melges 24 sailors.

Your turn, Wess.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

That's the best you got?  LOL; OK I am an idiot.  But oddly enough, of the well over 100,000 Laser sailors out there, only somewhere round about 10% stand with you and join ILCA.  Hell only ~1% even bothered to vote.  Maybe they know it doesn't matter.  Maybe they know all you care about is the elite, $s, and control of the game; not making it better. Maybe they think you sold out to PSA (on their payroll perhaps... to quote you?... and no I ain't on FR's).  But whatever the reason you think the 90% of Laser sailors that don't join ILCA are all idiots.  OK but perhaps that thinking is why ILCA fails to attract grass roots sailors.  Maybe why that is why fewer and fewer join.  Maybe that is why more and more boats use non class legal components and just don't care about your foolishness and greed.  You think I am in love with LPE.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I just hope they are better than the shit you shovel on the class.  In doing away with LPE you could have made things better for the class.  A real opportunity for a true transformation existed.  You could have done things that would have supported both the elite game and improved the grass roots game.  But instead you picked greed, control, and sold out to PSA.  So yea, this idiot is proud to not support ILCA anymore and glad to support The Laser Class.  Will it be better than ILCA?  I honestly doubt it but it sure can't be worse than what you have done. 

So, Wess, are you really advocating the The Laser Class will not be one-design? Is that what you want? No builders manual, no class standard sail, etc? How would you know which kit is fast?

now, both of my boats  are measurement rule boats. I know the game, I like the game. But I thought Laser was the epitome of one-design?

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33 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

It's an old politicians trick to call out numbers as something awful despite having no comparison to the truly awful numbers the rest of the classes have.

here's one comparison I am familiar with.  The Melges 24 has sold 850-odd boats, with four-five "sailors" per boat (the class offers associate membership for crews).

Conservatively let's call it 800 boats, times four, or 3200 sailors.  There are 65 members in the Class or about 2 percent of current Melges 24 sailors.

Your turn, Wess.

 

 

 

 

well dat just shows how super duper  smart those super duper  greedy officials are at the ILCA. they picked one of the largest classes to charge their super duper super secret fees on everything ILCA so they can go on their super duper super secret vacays to super duper super secret locals funded by the super duper super secret fees. OMG,OMG,OMG

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The Laser Class seems to be targeting Europe. 
it isn’t going to change North America

North America needs a well funded enthusiastic builder and an association capable of vigorously promoting the game and working with that builder to help increase boat sales. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I dunno, Gouv. By the look of things, all TLC are trying to do is duplicate ILCA with (potentially) cheaper boats. And a builder that has a history of supporting Europe only. I can't see this going anywhere. 

I can see it going somewhere in Europe and then fizzle out.

Not sure about the time span though. 

Once TLC is moribund, quite a few in Europe will have Lasers that are not ILCA 'legal', but they will still be sailing and, hopefully, having fun.

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In Europe, top sailors want nationals, europeans, worlds and eventually the olympics, so they'll go for ILCA.

The rest of us at club level do not buy new boats. (Well, maybe rich parents for their kids, but those will buy 4,7 rigs because they want to compete in regional and maybe nationals too)

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24 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

The rest of us at club level do not buy new boats. (Well, maybe rich parents for their kids, but those will buy 4,7 rigs because they want to compete in regional and maybe nationals too)

Same around here. There are a handful who buy new every 4 or 5 years. Probably a half dozen joined last year - all with used boats. Two newbies just showed up late this season (which is now over) in a couple PSA event boats (which are no faster btw...). 

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

well dat just shows how super duper  smart those super duper  greedy officials are at the ILCA. they picked one of the largest classes to charge their super duper super secret fees on everything ILCA so they can go on their super duper super secret vacays to super duper super secret locals funded by the super duper super secret fees. OMG,OMG,OMG

EXPLOSIVE!

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39 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

6000 Solos built, probably 3000 still in existence, 1000 class members.

Almost all within an 8 hour drive with each other. 

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51 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's pretty amazing for any class.  Kudos to the organizers and owners.

Yes the class have done a great job for many years. Must be the strongest in the UK.  But, to be fair, it’s appeal is much more concentrated - geographically and demographically - than the erstwhile Laser.  
The Laser is a broad church and sadly, imo, the association only seems to care about the elite racers (in spite of its constitutional aim).  It is tempting to think that  it is simply vanity on the part of ILCA wanting some sort of kudos by proxy, but it is folly to believe a wannabe Olympian’s money or participation is somehow more valuable than a holiday boat owner or weekend warrior. I suspect in part holiday boat owners don’t need an association, where clearly international racers do, but ILCA run the class solely for the benefit of the few. 

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 The solo class has done well because it’s listened to its racing members who have joined the Class Association. Nothing more than the ILCA is doing now.
 

Sorry but holiday boat owners are not important because they have no importance or relevance to any racing class , they are just iceing on the cake to any boat manufacture/ Class. 

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7 hours ago, Xeon said:

 The solo class has done well because it’s listened to its racing members who have joined the Class Association. Nothing more than the ILCA is doing now.
 

Sorry but holiday boat owners are not important because they have no importance or relevance to any racing class , they are just iceing on the cake to any boat manufacture/ Class. 

 But that’s the point.  The `Laser is not a racing class. It is a class that happens to be raced.  

BBE12038-5AE7-4851-B6EF-C85F0E8DA155.jpeg

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7 hours ago, sosoomii said:

 But that’s the point.  The `Laser is not a racing class. It is a class that happens to be raced.  

BBE12038-5AE7-4851-B6EF-C85F0E8DA155.jpeg

So is the expectation for ILCA to provide for charter companies and all Laser owners who sail their boats on occasion and use them for kids swimming platforms? This is where this whole anti-ILCA movement is totally lost on me. What exactly should ILCA - or any class association - be doing for non-racers? Sure, if you own a Wayfarer or a GP 14 there is enough interest in cruising to have a community within the association. I raised this point a few thousand posts ago - what Class Association really caters to the non-racer, or even the club racer? Especially WS classes? And what should ILCA do for them? Organize camping events? Laser jamborees? If there was seriously enough interest for people in non-racing activities, don't you think the builder (now plural) would be all over that market and organize all this?

I have zero expectation for ILCA to help me with my pleasure sailing activities. Or my club racing. I am not that useless, and neither is my club.  

When TLC organizes the first chili cook off for their throngs of fervent non-racing members, let me know. I am sure it will be free.

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Then why don't they fund themselves from their members?  Then why do they fund themselves from collecting fees from boats and buyers that don't want to race in ILCA?  Doesn't that seem dishonest to you?

 

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38 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

So is the expectation for ILCA to provide for charter companies and all Laser owners who sail their boats on occasion and use them for kids swimming platforms? This is where this whole anti-ILCA movement is totally lost on me. What exactly should ILCA - or any class association - be doing for non-racers? Sure, if you own a Wayfarer or a GP 14 there is enough interest in cruising to have a community within the association. I raised this point a few thousand posts ago - what Class Association really caters to the non-racer, or even the club racer? Especially WS classes? And what should ILCA do for them? Organize camping events? Laser jamborees? If there was seriously enough interest for people in non-racing activities, don't you think the builder (now plural) would be all over that market and organize all this?

I have zero expectation for ILCA to help me with my pleasure sailing activities. Or my club racing. I am not that useless, and neither is my club.  

When TLC organizes the first chili cook off for their throngs of fervent non-racing members, let me know. I am sure it will be free.

This is an open goal so before Wess fills his boots let me have a say...

I would not necessarily expect a class association to take many positive actions to support non-racing owners, other than to arrange discounted insurance & spare parts, t-shirts, maintenance videos etc.  Perhaps they can’t even do much to positively support low level club racing - rigging tips, starting tips, free class coaching sessions at clubs with more than x members, co-ordination of local, regional, national and international events to avoid clashes, “improver” guides etc.  But what they can do is stop putting rules, fees and restrictions in place that are for the benefit of the elite few at the expense of other owners. You know, fees on new boats, banning ILCA builders also producing non-plaques boats etc. That kind of thing...

Edited by sosoomii
Too late, Wess got their first!
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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

Then why don't they fund themselves from their members?  Then why do they fund themselves from collecting fees from boats and buyers that don't want to race in ILCA?  Doesn't that seem dishonest to you?

 

Do you want to regulate them?

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13 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

 But what they can do is stop putting rules, fees and restrictions in place that are for the benefit of the elite few at the expense of other owners. 

Why should they do that?  

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8 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

This is an open goal so before Wess fills his boots let me have a say...

I would not necessarily expect a class association to take many positive actions to support non-racing owners, other than to arrange discounted insurance & spare parts, t-shirts, maintenance videos etc.  Perhaps they can’t even do much to positively support low level club racing - rigging tips, starting tips, free class coaching sessions at clubs with more than x members, co-ordination of local, regional, national and international events to avoid clashes, “improver” guides etc.  But what they can do is stop putting rules, fees and restrictions in place that are for the benefit of the elite few at the expense of other owners. You know, fees on new boats, banning ILCA builders also producing non-plaques boats etc. That kind of thing...

WORD!

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36 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

This is an open goal so before Wess fills his boots let me have a say...

  Perhaps they can’t even do much to positively support low level club racing - rigging tips, starting tips, free class coaching sessions at clubs with more than x members, co-ordination of local, regional, national and international events to avoid clashes, “improver” guides etc.

You discount all the regional, local officials and  members  of the ILCA that do support the "grass roots" efforts of this class in many different ways. It is unfortunate a few socks, trolls get on this site and write disparaging, nasty comments about the good volunteers in the class that do so much for so many. 

This site could be useful to promote dinghy sailing but unfortunately  a few keep that from taking place 

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11 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Perhaps they can’t even do much to positively support low level club racing

They could rent (cheap) me some class legal stuff so I can participate in the regionals without spending the price of another used boat on them... I'd join the class then.

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5 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

They could rent (cheap) me some class legal stuff so I can participate in the regionals without spending the price of another used boat on them... I'd join the class then.

Check with your local fleet someone probably would  loan you what you need. 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

This is an open goal so before Wess fills his boots let me have a say...

I would not necessarily expect a class association to take many positive actions to support non-racing owners, other than to arrange discounted insurance & spare parts, t-shirts, maintenance videos etc.  Perhaps they can’t even do much to positively support low level club racing - rigging tips, starting tips, free class coaching sessions at clubs with more than x members, co-ordination of local, regional, national and international events to avoid clashes, “improver” guides etc.  But what they can do is stop putting rules, fees and restrictions in place that are for the benefit of the elite few at the expense of other owners. You know, fees on new boats, banning ILCA builders also producing non-plaques boats etc. That kind of thing...

Do you guys know that ALL international classes have a new boat fee? Why? Cause World Sailing charges a new boat fee for international classes. The new "Laser Class" can avoid this if they don't get recognized as an international class, but as soon as they do? New boat fees.

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26 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

This is an open goal so before Wess fills his boots let me have a say...

I would not necessarily expect a class association to take many positive actions to support non-racing owners, other than to arrange discounted insurance & spare parts, t-shirts, maintenance videos etc.  Perhaps they can’t even do much to positively support low level club racing - rigging tips, starting tips, free class coaching sessions at clubs with more than x members, co-ordination of local, regional, national and international events to avoid clashes, “improver” guides etc.  But what they can do is stop putting rules, fees and restrictions in place that are for the benefit of the elite few at the expense of other owners. You know, fees on new boats, banning ILCA builders also producing non-plaques boats etc. That kind of thing...

OK - so ILCA is doing all of the things in your opening sorte other than discount parts and insurance. (Noting VWAP's point, the local ILCA district secretary is all over events, training, etc etc..) Sail Canada members get a great discount on boat insurance (same with US Sailing). The two local sailing shops give discounts to Club members. So ILCA have me covered on the actual sailing support and I get discounts on insurance and parts from more logical sources. T shirts would be nice. I liked those old ones with the Japanese artist's work.

So what is left is the acceptance that an organization that spans the globe and is involved in the Olympics requires funding. I get it. And I will never go to the Olympics, but I am supportive of the class' participation. I look at ILCA's budget and find nothing distasteful or extraordinary.  

Personally, for boats, ILCA have benefitted on 2 of the 11(IIRC) Lasers I have owned, as the other 9 were all used - including the present one. For parts, I didn't need to upgrade anything. Sails? I have bought a few new ones, one being an Intensity. My guess is many Laser sailors have travelled a similar path. So the typical Laser sailor isn't going broke supporting ILCA. And recreational sailor who buys a new Laser rather than a used one clearly has no concerns over a few bucks and, if they are so inclined, can quickly find out that ILCA, WS, IOC all get a minor piece of their spend. If it disgusts them, they can buy an Aero. Only WS fees for them. 

 

 

 

 

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The biggest thing the CA does for non racing sailors is to keep the class healthy and the second hand values up. SH values in classes where the CA fails are normally minimal. This is a hard concept for some here to understand though. 

And as someone who has been involved in CA management I have never wanted International Associations to stick their noses in NA business. I always wanted IAs to concentrate on the stuff only they can do. 

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40 minutes ago, JimC said:

The biggest thing the CA does for non racing sailors is to keep the class healthy and the second hand values up. SH values in classes where the CA fails are normally minimal. This is a hard concept for some here to understand though. 

And as someone who has been involved in CA management I have never wanted International Associations to stick their noses in NA business. I always wanted IAs to concentrate on the stuff only they can do. 

good post

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

Then why don't they fund themselves from their members?  Then why do they fund themselves from collecting fees from boats and buyers that don't want to race in ILCA?  Doesn't that seem dishonest to you?

 

No it's not dishonest.

Many classes fund themselves through collecting these sort of fees.

In the case of the Kirby Boat, it's not just the racers who benefit from the boat being an international class that is raced. Just one example (and there are many more). Somebody buys a boat to sail off the beach for fun. As often happens, the boat spends more time sitting at home in the garage roof than sailing and after a couple of years the owner decides to sell. It is bought by somebody who wants to go racing and sees the boat as a good opportunity to get a little used boat at a decent price. Therefore, the original owner gets a benefit from the boat being a  Laser/ILCA that has been created by the class as a whole. Or take a holiday company - lets' take one of the biggest, Minorca Sailing. Their website lists their fleet of boats and under the Laser it states "The Olympic single hander is raced the world over". So the holiday company is gaining a benefit from the work of the class association. Of 24 different classes they have in their fleet, Minorca Sailing only refers to racing in 3 of them and with only one, the Laser, do they refer to the boat being raced globally. Do you really think that a company like Minorca would keep it's fleet of Lasers if Laser racing stopped? I don't.

Non racing sailors also benefit from the controls that make sure all the boats are the same, or for in their eyes, the same quality (let's not argue about that quality!)  It certainly gives purchaser some confidence in the product, another benefit that would not be there if it weren't form the class, the builders agreements, construction manual etc. It seems very reasonable to me that these non racing owners contribute.

 

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12 hours ago, SimonN said:

No it's not dishonest.

Many classes fund themselves through collecting these sort of fees.

In the case of the Kirby Boat, it's not just the racers who benefit from the boat being an international class that is raced. Just one example (and there are many more). Somebody buys a boat to sail off the beach for fun. As often happens, the boat spends more time sitting at home in the garage roof than sailing and after a couple of years the owner decides to sell. It is bought by somebody who wants to go racing and sees the boat as a good opportunity to get a little used boat at a decent price. Therefore, the original owner gets a benefit from the boat being a  Laser/ILCA that has been created by the class as a whole. Or take a holiday company - lets' take one of the biggest, Minorca Sailing. Their website lists their fleet of boats and under the Laser it states "The Olympic single hander is raced the world over". So the holiday company is gaining a benefit from the work of the class association. Of 24 different classes they have in their fleet, Minorca Sailing only refers to racing in 3 of them and with only one, the Laser, do they refer to the boat being raced globally. Do you really think that a company like Minorca would keep it's fleet of Lasers if Laser racing stopped? I don't.

Non racing sailors also benefit from the controls that make sure all the boats are the same, or for in their eyes, the same quality (let's not argue about that quality!)  It certainly gives purchaser some confidence in the product, another benefit that would not be there if it weren't form the class, the builders agreements, construction manual etc. It seems very reasonable to me that these non racing owners contribute.

 

True.

And on the other hand, the builder and the class benefit from the availability of their boats at holiday centers like Minorca Sailing.

I remember on my first trip to Minorca Sailing in 1981 that the owner, Bob Jelfs, jokingly warned all the guests on the first day of the holiday that this was going to be an expensive experience for some of us because we would try out a new class of dinghy (to us) during the week, fall in love with it, and just have to go and buy one when we got back home.

He was right. I had my first sail in a Laser on that holiday and bought one (the first of four new Lasers I have bought over the years) soon after returning to the UK. In 2014 I had my first sail in an RS Aero at Minorca Sailing which confirmed my interest in the boat and I took delivery of my first Aero soon after returning to the US. I have been a member of ILCA and the RS Aero Class Association all the years I have raced their respective boats.

Win win.



 

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