ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

[tillerman 1,316]

31 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

If you were active in the class in the 1090’s and supported the laser becoming an Olympic class, raise your hand. 

I do remember sailing the Laser in England in the 1090s.

In October of 1091 there was a tornado that destroyed London Bridge but we still went ahead with the UK Nationals.

Then in 1092 there were huge floods that inundated the Kentish lands of Earl Godwin, and Goodwin Sands SC was destroyed along with all the Lasers there.

We didn't do much Laser sailing in the second half of the 1090s as all the young sailors were off at the Crusades.

That's all I remember. My memory's not the same since I turned 900.

What was the question again?
 

[Old Yeller 408]

2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I do remember sailing the Laser in England in the 1090s.

In October of 1091 there was a tornado that destroyed London Bridge but we still went ahead with the UK Nationals.

Then in 1092 there were huge floods that inundated the Kentish lands of Earl Godwin, and Goodwin Sands SC was destroyed along with all the Lasers there.

We didn't do much Laser sailing in the second half of the 1090s as all the young sailors were off at the Crusades.

That's all I remember. My memory's not the same since I turned 900.

What was the question again?
 

Those were the days! They used to let us wear chainmail for weight. Men were men and lasers were lasers!

[tillerman 1,316]

12 minutes ago, Wess said:

So move south where you don't need those silly booties.  Barefoot sailing be where its at Mon.

Oh and Aero sailing is where its at as well per Tiller but he also lives where snow falls so I am not sure of his sanity either.

[Old Yeller 408]

Only one person here supported the laser becoming an Olympic class? That’s good to hear. Otherwise I would say you got what you asked for. 

[Bill5 1,658]

6 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Only one person here supported the laser becoming an Olympic class? That’s good to hear. Otherwise I would say you got what you asked for. 

Assuming, of course, that one could see what was going to happen. 

[Bill5 1,658]

1 hour ago, Wess said:

So move south where you don't need those silly booties.  Barefoot sailing be where its at Mon.

Oh and Aero sailing is where its at as well per Tiller but he also lives where snow falls so I am not sure of his sanity either.

Maybe the Aero should follow Gouv's suggested pathway. 

[tillerman 1,316]

I was a member of the Laser class through the period they made it into an Olympic class. I don't recall that we were ever asked to vote on the change.

I wasn't particularly for or against it, but I didn't realize at the time how bad it would turn out for the class.
 

[JMP 163]

I was a member of the class when it went through, I thought it was awesome at the time and I still do.  But unlike many in this thread I think the ILCA are doing a pretty good job overall

[Jethrow 153]

8 hours ago, Bill5 said:

So if you go for the "Full Assembly" option, how long does it last for? Does that include putting it in the water or just rigging it for you on race day?

[JulianB 426]

If I had to name someone it was Tim Coventry who drove the Laser into the Olympics.

Probably Geoff Martin was up to his eye balls in it also.

I have a strong recolection of Ian (Bruce) and Ward (McKim) being very very wary of the then IYRU and what Olympics would do to the Laser.    I'm not sure what cocktail we drank while having this conversation, but Barbra was there, in Point Claire, and it ws a very good night.

But I do 1000% agree with the comments re Meroca Sailing and there preference for Olympic Boats.

Being Olympic adds 10% approx in cost but that is a very small price to pay, if you sit down and think about it.   Purchase price is irelevant! 

Think running cost, and Olymics brings mass and dealers and parts and certianly.

                      jB

[Wess 2,480]

4 hours ago, JulianB said:

Being Olympic adds 10% approx in cost but that is a very small price to pay, if you sit down and think about it.   Purchase price is irelevant! 

 

  On an $8000 boat.  Yikes.

[RobbieB 1,221]

13 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

Only one person here supported the laser becoming an Olympic class? That’s good to hear. Otherwise I would say you got what you asked for. 

I was happy about it.  Still am.  I used to tell people I sail competitively and they would ask "what boat"?  I'd say Laser. They'd say "oh...".  Now I say and Olympic class boat and they say "OH!".    When you have something like that behind a class I think it helps generate interest.

[Old Yeller 408]

5 hours ago, JulianB said:

and Olymics brings mass and dealers and parts and certianly.

Let that one sink in.

[RobbieB 1,221]

3 minutes ago, Wess said:

  On an $8000 boat.  Yikes.

$ Umm.  $ 7,250.00.  Go back a little on comments to yesterday.  I know you hate hearing that, but all of your arguments are getting holes blasted in them as things continue evolve, (not devolve) like many of us thought they would.

[RobbieB 1,221]

5 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Let that one sink in.

Now that the tyrant is gone we'll get that back.  Just look at what's happening here in Charleston now with Kurt partnering with ZIM.  We've had a couple of weeks of "Parts runs"!

[Wess 2,480]

Just now, RobbieB said:

$ Umm.  $ 7,250.00.  Go back a little on comments to yesterday.  I know you hate hearing that, but all of your arguments are getting holes blasted in them as things continue evolve, (not devolve) like many of us thought they would.

Sorry no you are making up facts again.  Taxes and shipping.  I know lemmings don't like truth but you can't escape death or taxes (or shipping or ILCA fees or...) 

[RobbieB 1,221]

3 minutes ago, Wess said:

Sorry no you are making up facts again.  Taxes and shipping.  I know lemmings don't like truth but you can't escape death or taxes (or shipping or ILCA fees or...) 

Wess- That was the base boat price BEFORE LPE got kicked to the curb!  Maybe West Coast can help us with some facts here.? 

[Wess 2,480]

Go back a page and you will find it there.  I am likely buying one so hey if you can deliver it for your quoted figure go ahead. I will gladly pay you that.

Dare you.  Less talk; more walk!  I bet you do it "soon." 

Sorry; could not resist on the last. 

[torrid 378]

6 hours ago, JulianB said:

and Olymics brings mass and dealers and parts and certianly.

[Bill5 1,658]

The Olympics are what they are. They cost what they cost. If the full price of a Laser was $7,200 vs $8,000 does anybody really think that would cause a seismic shift in purchasing and participation? No chance. It would make no noticeable difference. If the Laser pulled out of the Olympics, it would be the best thing that ever happened to the Aero. 

[Bill5 1,658]

The latest copy of The Laser Sailor just showed up in my inbox (like all ILCA members). 60 pages of articles, photos, results and regional updates. Lots of good information for all! PSA have an ad thanking North America for 200 new ILCA's sold since September.

[Wess 2,480]

It would be the worst thing that ever happened to the Aero!

[Bill5 1,658]

4 minutes ago, Wess said:

It would be the worst thing that ever happened to the Aero!

From a sales perspective?

[tillerman 1,316]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

 If the Laser pulled out of the Olympics, it would be the best thing that ever happened to the Aero. 

You must be joking.

Keep the RS Aero out of the Olympics. We're doing just fine. Don't spoil a good thing by giving it the Olympic curse. 

[Bill5 1,658]

Note I didn't say anything about the Aero replacing the Laser, only the Laser dropping out.

But I forgot that the Aero guys jumped off the Olympic-desire ship once the Laser was named. There was some acrimony at first due to winning the trial, but that was quickly followed up by "we really didn't want to be in the Olympics anyway". Some would say sour grapes. 

In any event,  I also feel safe in saying that had the Aero won the selection, they would sell more boats. And this would mainly be at the expense of the Laser. Do you disagree? 

All summed up, the Laser would lose steam if it was no longer an Olympic class. If you don't think that would benefit the Aero, I would be surprised. 

[RobbieB 1,221]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

 PSA have an ad thanking North America for 200 new ILCA's sold since September.

I'll go ahead and handle this for Wess right now.   

Wait! Stop the press! How could that be possible?!?  If PSA can only build 200 boats a year HOW could they possibly sell all of them in NA?  

Oh, I get it.  Just more lies from the ILCA....

It's fun to sail in the ILCA!!!!! ILCA'yaa..

[Old Yeller 408]

7 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Now that the tyrant is gone we'll get that back.  Just look at what's happening here in Charleston now with Kurt partnering with ZIM.  We've had a couple of weeks of "Parts runs"!

Yes the recent developments have been good news for us.

[tillerman 1,316]

42 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Note I didn't say anything about the Aero replacing the Laser, only the Laser dropping out.

Hmmm. If the Laser dropped out of the Olympics (and was not replaced by the Aero) then presumably most of the elites would go off and sail whatever boat replaced the Laser as the Olympic boat. I can't see that affecting the current vibe of the RS Aero class. Why would it? If some of the former Laser elites moved up to the Aero class I am sure they would be very welcome - as long as they didn't bring their "Mommy Boat culture" with them.

But I forgot that the Aero guys jumped off the Olympic-desire ship once the Laser was named. There was some acrimony at first due to winning the trial, but that was quickly followed up by "we really didn't want to be in the Olympics anyway". Some would say sour grapes. 

LOL. I and others were on record before the decision was announced to stick with the good old Laser as having doubts about whether being in the Olympics would really benefit the Aero class. I am firmly on the fence in this post for example. https://aerobian.com/2018/11/05/rs-aero-in-the-olympics/ 

In any event,  I also feel safe in saying that had the Aero won the selection, they would sell more boats. And this would mainly be at the expense of the Laser. Do you disagree? 

If the RS Aero won the selection then, I agree that more people would buy RS Aeros and fewer people would buy Lasers or ILCAs or whatever the latest name is. But while that might make RS Sailing happy, I am not sure that it would be a positive thing for most of the sailors in the RS Aero class. The pleasure of sailing in a particular class is not necessarily linked to sales volumes. A 400 boat regatta is not inherently more fun than a 100 boat regatta. At least for me, it's not.

All summed up, the Laser would lose steam if it was no longer an Olympic class. If you don't think that would benefit the Aero, I would be surprised. 

The pleasure I get from RS Aero sailing is not related in any way to how much steam there is in the Laser class. It comes from enjoying sailing my superb little boat and my interactions with all the wonderful, friendly people in the RS Aero class. Some of them moved up from the Laser but by no means all of them. Their diversity of previous watersports experience is one thing that makes them so interesting.

 

 

[Wess 2,480]

1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I'll go ahead and handle this for Wess right now.   

Wait! Stop the press! How could that be possible?!?  If PSA can only build 200 boats a year HOW could they possibly sell all of them in NA?  

Oh, I get it.  Just more lies from the ILCA....

It's fun to sail in the ILCA!!!!! ILCA'yaa..

Dude - you hillbillies do a bad Wess imitation. Not surprised at all. For gosh sake I told you post #2 on this thread that PSA was your new overlord. That’s Daddy for you. For gosh sake you gave them a monopoly for over 500 days and that that’s the best they could do? You told me there were huge supply issues here. Folks dying to get boats. And with a more than 500 day monopoly granted by ILCA and WS the best PSA could do was 200 boats (BTW not nearly 200 are through the pipeline)?!? They must be as incompetent or their boats as bad and expensive as others have said! But just one opinion and worth what you paid! Cheers!!! 

[Bill5 1,658]

30 minutes ago, tillerman said:

"I can't see that affecting the current vibe of the RS Aero class. Why would it?"

So are you saying the elite sailors will all go to the new boat and the non-elites will just stick with the ILCA? Huh. So the Aero wouldn't become a more attractive option for the non-elite?

48 minutes ago, tillerman said:

"A 400 boat regatta is not inherently more fun than a 100 boat regatta. At least for me, it's not."

 What do you think RS's view would be in terms of measuring success? 

52 minutes ago, tillerman said:

"The pleasure I get from RS Aero sailing is not related in any way to how much steam there is in the Laser class."

So now we are talking subjectively! OK - then sail an IC and talk to me about pure sailing pleasure. 

[Bill5 1,658]

7 minutes ago, Wess said:

Dude - you hillbillies do a bad Wess imitation. Not surprised at all. For gosh sake I told you post #2 on this thread that PSS was you new overlord. That’s Daddy for you. For gosh sake you have them a monopoly for over 500 days that that’s the best they could do? You told me there were huge supply issues here. Folks dying to get boats. And with a more than 500 day monopoly granted by ILCA and WS the best PSA could do was 200 boats (BTW not nearly 200 are through the pipeline)?!? They must be as incompetent as others have said! 

Does PSS control Ovington? Nautivela? Riotecna? No? Makes for a pretty pathetic overlord. 

[Wess 2,480]

They collect money from all of them!!! Come on, try harder; you are making this too easy.

[Bill5 1,658]

1 hour ago, Wess said:

They collect money from all of them!!! Come on, try harder; you are making this too easy.

Understood, and a good point. But not many overlords agree to share turf. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Bill5
typo

[tillerman 1,316]

2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

So are you saying the elite sailors will all go to the new boat and the non-elites will just stick with the ILCA? Huh. So the Aero wouldn't become a more attractive option for the non-elite?
The RS Aero is, and always has been, an attractive option for regular Laser sailors wishing to move up to a more modern, more exciting boat. But why should they suddenly move to the Aero because the Laser was not an Olympic boat any more? Or are there really some Laser weekend warriors who only sail a Laser because it is in the Olympics? Sad!

 
What do you think RS's view would be in terms of measuring success? 
I have no idea. RS Sailing has done an amazing job of growing many successful small boat classes by focusing on the things that are important to their customers - and without the "help" of Olympic status for any of them (so far.) There are a number of interviews available online with Jon Partridge and Alex Newton-Southon (the two top executives at RS) which give you an idea of their values and what they are trying to achieve at RS. Check out https://www.sail-worldcruising.com/news/200268/RS-Sailings-incredible-2017 and https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/227661/In-conversation-with-Jon-Partridge for example.

 

So now we are talking subjectively! OK - then sail an IC and talk to me about pure sailing pleasure.
I am very happy with my RS Aero, thanks. 

 

 

[Bill5 1,658]

 All good, Tiller. I just think the continued success of the Laser owes more to the Olympics than many believe. I also think that the Laser ILCA is a better boat than many give it credit for. Growth and fleet sizes aren’t what they used to be, but it is still at the top of the heap. And ILCA (the Association) has held it all together under extreme conditions. 

[RobbieB 1,221]

15 hours ago, Wess said:

Dude - you hillbillies do a bad Wess imitation. Not surprised at all. For gosh sake I told you post #2 on this thread that PSA was your new overlord. That’s Daddy for you. For gosh sake you gave them a monopoly for over 500 days and that that’s the best they could do? You told me there were huge supply issues here. Folks dying to get boats. And with a more than 500 day monopoly granted by ILCA and WS the best PSA could do was 200 boats (BTW not nearly 200 are through the pipeline)?!? They must be as incompetent or their boats as bad and expensive as others have said! But just one opinion and worth what you paid! Cheers!!! 

No doubt ILCA has had growing pains through this which, BTW, I'd bet EVERYONE expected to see given the monumental changes we had to go through.  However, we voted for it because we WANTED it.  Now we're rounding the corner and COVID has been a huge boost to single handed sailing with some record participation numbers at single handed events.

Sure PSA is getting some cash, but we now have multiple options for boats/suppliers, (which we've never had before) AND boat pricing packages have gone from $ 9,600.00, (early PSA prices when they had the monopoly like LPE did for years) DOWN to $ 7,200.00, (of course not counting tax/shipping as has ALWAYS been the case).

I for one am thrilled with the progress and the continued direction the class is headed in. 

Ya know, for all of our arguing I find your "Trump like" always right/never wrong/waiver or even compromise (even a tiny bit) position pretty interesting.  I really can't understand why you would want a Laser at all. 

[RobbieB 1,221]

13 hours ago, tillerman said:

 

I think the Aero movement is great.  More people sailing what they want to sail and have friends to play with is what the game is all about.  I've not sailed one, but having coached kids sailing Open Bic's and watching them struggle to figure out how to sit in it, (reminds me of an avocado skin) makes me think I'm just too old school for the Aero, but that's just me!

[Wess 2,480]

59 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

No doubt ILCA has had growing pains through this which, BTW, I'd bet EVERYONE expected to see given the monumental changes we had to go through.  However, we voted for it because we WANTED it.  Now we're rounding the corner and COVID has been a huge boost to single handed sailing with some record participation numbers at single handed events.

Sure PSA is getting some cash, but we now have multiple options for boats/suppliers, (which we've never had before) AND boat pricing packages have gone from $ 9,600.00, (early PSA prices when they had the monopoly like LPE did for years) DOWN to $ 7,200.00, (of course not counting tax/shipping as has ALWAYS been the case).

I for one am thrilled with the progress and the continued direction the class is headed in. 

Ya know, for all of our arguing I find your "Trump like" always right/never wrong/waiver or even compromise (even a tiny bit) position pretty interesting.  I really can't understand why you would want a Laser at all. 

I do have to laugh when the best you and Clean can come up with is to link me to a politician I didn’t vote for. Frankly I think ILCA leadership is a lot like Trump.  As I said to Bill... you are so wrong you make it too easy. 
 

On the why would I want one question point I am not at all surprised you don’t get it. 
 

I liked and cared about the club members sailing the boat. Great club and great fleet and fun boat. You care about plaques and money and control.

I liked that I could and did go anywhere in the world, on every continent and find somebody that I had something in common with and could bond over even if we didn’t speak the same language. I met so many people who are friends to this day that way. You care about plaques and money and control. 
 

I liked that it could be sailed in any breeze from 3 to 30 and it was easy to rig, easy to access, OD (so a great learning tool) and a great way to get people into sailing and racing. You care about plaques and money and control. 
 

I don’t care about plaques, or money (if anyone paid class dues), or control. Generic sails, generic parts and even generic boats would be fine by me. You care about plaques, money and control. 
 

I would argue it’s you who doesn’t care about Laser. Hell you don’t sail a Laser anymore; you sail an ILCA. 
 

 

 

[VWAP 1,021]

2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

No doubt ILCA has had growing pains through this which, BTW, I'd bet EVERYONE expected to see given the monumental changes we had to go through.  However, we voted for it because we WANTED it.  Now we're rounding the corner and COVID has been a huge boost to single handed sailing with some record participation numbers at single handed events.

Sure PSA is getting some cash, but we now have multiple options for boats/suppliers, (which we've never had before) AND boat pricing packages have gone from $ 9,600.00, (early PSA prices when they had the monopoly like LPE did for years) DOWN to $ 7,200.00, (of course not counting tax/shipping as has ALWAYS been the case).

I for one am thrilled with the progress and the continued direction the class is headed in. 

Ya know, for all of our arguing I find your "Trump like" always right/never wrong/waiver or even compromise (even a tiny bit) position pretty interesting.  I really can't understand why you would want a Laser at all. 

Good post

Funny how the trolls, socks omit the fact lpe brought a lot of this all of us with their lack of boats,  parts, support and forced the class association to take action and start the process of solving the problem. The class officers have done a good job in these difficult times. 

[Tcatman 124]

Quote

" I find your "Trump like" always right/never wrong/waiver or even compromise (even a tiny bit) position pretty interesting.  I really can't understand why you would want a Laser at all.  "

You raise an interesting question......A single handed boat in a sport where you react to the environment as much as the competition fits an individualist personality type....   But everything else requires collective group action and consensus...  I called Wess a libertarian in the past.  The libertarian  Wess is me  me me and the always right/never wrong/waiver or even compromise are hallmarks of a 13 year old ayn randian.  All of the values he professes to desire forced him to give up  sovereignty to class rules and the need for community action to get a fleet to race.  As soon as the organizations and community structure demand something from wess,  his libertarian bs comes out and he magically believes that all of that community and one design regulation happens magically and he should not have buckle under some authority.   All of the personal aspersions that follow from Wess are  a justification for his noble ignorance.

IME,  Discussing anything with Trumpers or Libertarians rarely develops any novel insights or light.   

[Old Yeller 408]

It might be time to post a reading list and syllabus outlining the history and development of political philosophy. People should really take the time to educate themselves beyond the level of the nightly news.

[Bill5 1,658]

I thought a libertarian was someone that worked in a libertary 

[VWAP 1,021]

5 hours ago, Tcatman said:

You raise an interesting question......A single handed boat in a sport where you react to the environment as much as the competition fits an individualist personality type....   But everything else requires collective group action and consensus...  I called Wess a libertarian in the past.  The libertarian  Wess is me  me me and the always right/never wrong/waiver or even compromise are hallmarks of a 13 year old ayn randian.  All of the values he professes to desire forced him to give up  sovereignty to class rules and the need for community action to get a fleet to race.  As soon as the organizations and community structure demand something from wess,  his libertarian bs comes out and he magically believes that all of that community and one design regulation happens magically and he should not have buckle under some authority.   All of the personal aspersions that follow from Wess are  a justification for his noble ignorance.

IME,  Discussing anything with Trumpers or Libertarians rarely develops any novel insights or light.   

I stopped reading wess when he accused me of lying then refused to back up his statement. He is not the only one I stopped reading long ago. The have nothing to contribute to the discussion

[MR.CLEAN 3,853]

7 hours ago, Wess said:

 link me to a politician I didn’t vote for.

mmhmmmmm.

 

I have a feeling Wess was that guy at the regatta

[Bill5 1,658]

15 hours ago, Wess said:

  

• • 

[Wess 2,480]

I know.  I have at least 5 of them on the lines as we speak.

[Bill5 1,658]

13 hours ago, Wess said:

I know.  I have at least 5 of them on the lines as we speak.

13 hrs and no bites. Stay strong everybody! 

[Wess 2,480]

Well stay strong and join The Laser Class!!

[RobbieB 1,221]

8 hours ago, Bill5 said:

13 hrs and no bites. Stay strong everybody! 

Damnit Bill!  So close......!

[Bill5 1,658]

1 hour ago, Wess said:

Well stay strong and join The Laser Class!!

And a re-troll. Pathetic.

[JimC 698]

The first stage of TLCs application for International status was the Equipment rules sub cttee. Their job, AIUI, is to recommend the suitability of the class rules. After minimal discussion 1:40:00 their recommendation was the application should be deferred, AIUI because the class rules were not in a suitable state. 

 

[MR.CLEAN 3,853]

LP seems to have submitted the same kind of high quality work they are known so well for.

[RobbieB 1,221]

13 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

LP seems to have submitted the same kind of high quality work they are known so well for.

Shocker!

[RobbieB 1,221]

I vote for closure of this thread.  

ILCA is well on it's way now.

 

Perhaps interested parties could start a new thread?  Something like, "Is the LP Laser gonna make it?" or "LP- Shot in the Foot club- applications here." 

[Gouvernail 2,883]

The International Lightning Class Association has been around for many decades. 
 

 

[Wess 2,480]

I was thinking we need one for "How soon till ILCA launches the new rigs?"  Have at it Robbie!!

[Wess 2,480]

4 hours ago, Bill5 said:

And a re-troll. Pathetic.

Bill - no good fisherman ever leaves a honey hole.  Lot of flies and fish LOL. 

[JimC 698]

2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

LP seems to have submitted the same kind of high quality work they are known so well for.

To be fair they were probably blindsided when their original plan of copying the ILCA rules went south due to copyright. 

[tillerman 1,316]

5 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

LP seems to have submitted the same kind of high quality work they are known so well for.

Has anybody got a version of the original Laser class rules from the early 1970s? I bet they were a lot shorter than the current ILCA class rules.

Perhaps something like...

1. Race the boat as it came from the factory. If you change anything you are cheating.
2. If Bruce Kirby didn't approve the builder of your boat you are cheating.
3. Here is a diagram. If your boat doesn't look like this you are cheating.
4. Join the fucking class. Don't be a free loader.
5. Changes to rules. We're never going to change the rules. Why would we?

[MR.CLEAN 3,853]

 

13 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Has anybody got a version of the original Laser class rules from the early 1970s? I bet they were a lot shorter than the current ILCA class rules.
 

I was a lot shorter in the 70s than I am today, though I guess I am shrinking now.

[Bill5 1,658]

1 hour ago, tillerman said:

5. Changes to rules. We're never going to change the rules. Why would we?

 

[tillerman 1,316]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

 

I fear it's a rule of the universe that every set of dinghy class association rules must alway be in a constant state of flux which confuses the hell out of the half the membership who can't memorize 57 pages of tightly packed text that is always changing, and pisses off the other half of the members whose requests to have an extra doohickey and a piece of string with 3 knots in the inhaul for the outhaul elastic return take-up loop are vetoed every year by the Council That Vetoes Stuff.

Seriously though, encouraging members to think up creative tweaks to the class rules is really a Good Thing. It provides members with a time-consuming but frustrating hobby. Without that to keep them busy they might be on Sailing Anarchy pushing conspiracy theories about how the class leadership only cares about China/ the elite/ colored sails/ hidden fees etc. etc. and that would be a Bad Thing.

 

[JimC 698]

3 hours ago, tillerman said:

1. Race the boat as it came from the factory. If you change anything you are cheating. And yes, that includes tying loops and knots in the control lines to increase the purchase above the design, and making super flat tillers. 

But unfortunately they forgot some important stuff

[Gouvernail 2,883]

Copyrighted Class rules ? Who owns the Copyrights? 

Would that be the International Laser Class Assocation? 
 

( note: before reading further, ...

I was all for changing the name to the Torch Class and dumping LP while the Leaders of the International Laser Class Association we’re taking action to keep LP as the sole approved builder because LP has the rights to the name which they didn’t want to change because they were certain that word meant so much)

Why the hell didn’t the folks who started “The Laser Class” simply say they were taking over the abandoned International  Laser Class Association and proceed from there. 
Why not do it now??

The vigilantes running whatever is ILCA have never applied for or received permission from the membership to take the assets of the International Laser Class Association and use those assets to set up a new organization.

 

Damn... this shitfight could be SOOOOO much more entertaining 

Wess thread could have thousands more posts 

and just think of the conspiracy theories.

Where is Rastagar’s old laptop??

Did Andy email from a non class server? 
 

Has Tracy played golf? 
 

You guys are Boooooooring!!!

 

 

[JimC 698]

The Equipment committee has just voted to reject the TLC application for International status, and also intends to propose a change to the regulations so that such applications are not considered in the future. 

[Bill5 1,658]

1 hour ago, JimC said:

The Equipment committee has just voted to reject the TLC application for International status, and also intends to propose a change to the regulations so that such applications are not considered in the future. 

2:12:45

Now TLC are in trouble. A bunch of members are going to want their money back.

 

[chuso007 636]

If I were TLC (or Rastegard for that matter), I'd be fucking embarrased .

And If I were WS I'd bill them for the time wasted.

[tillerman 1,316]

3 hours ago, JimC said:

The Equipment committee has just voted to reject the TLC application for International status, and also intends to propose a change to the regulations so that such applications are not considered in the future. 

Boring!!!!!

It's so much fun watching the two dueling Laser classes. I was really hoping it would result in two competing Laser World Championships, and a  massive fight about which Laser should be in the Olympics etc. etc. 

But no. The boring grey bureaucrats at World Sailing want to stop TheLaserClass from being accepted as a World Sailing Class.

In the long run, I guess it's a Good Thing. TheLaserClass can now concentrate on its core mission of supporting grass roots sailing, and leave ILCA to focus on the Olympics, the elite sailors, new rigs, colored sails and women in China.

[Bill5 1,658]

34 minutes ago, tillerman said:

 TheLaserClass can now come up with a Plan B since they made such a mess out of Plan A.

FIFY

They will also now likely state "We really didn't want to be a WS Class anyway". 

[tillerman 1,316]

11 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

FIFY

They will also now likely state "We really didn't want to be a WS Class anyway". 

Watch out for a Laser Inter-galactic Championship..... soon.

 

[Bill5 1,658]

12 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Watch out for a Laser Inter-galactic Championship..... soon.

 

Everybody qualifies, and it’s free. One thing nice - it will be in Portugal.

[VWAP 1,021]

44 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Everybody qualifies, and it’s free. One thing nice - it will be in Portugal.

 

LaserPerformance Launches The Laser Leage

---

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Whether you are a new, experienced, or international racer - The Laser League has a place for you. Laser League is a series of local races held by sailing clubs, supported by a score submission software, independent from the class, managed by LaserPerformance. You can now compete against sailors around the world, from the comfort of your own club.

Whether you are a new, experienced, or international racer - The Laser League has a place for you. Laser League is a series of local races held by sailing clubs, supported by a score submission software, independent from the class, managed by LaserPerformance. You can now compete against sailors around the world, from the comfort of your own club.

If you are a sailor or club with or without a racing program, here is how you can be part of the Laser League:

• Sign up for the event at www.TheLaserLeague.com and confirm that you will follow the rules outlined on the website

• Participate in a local race within the given time frame of the Laser League event. You can calculate the course length using sites such as mapdevelopers.com

• After your local race, submit your final scores on the “Submit Results” page of the website

• The Laser League will then rank you in your category (by type of boat, territory, age, & gender)

• Share your story and news on the Laser League website!

Your racing results are analyzed by Sailwave, accounting for the varying wind strengths we will find through the range of different countries and locations where sailors will sail through wind indexed ratings, ranking sailors from around the world.

Because Laser League is an independent series, sailors can use any Plaqued Laser, Club Laser or ARC Laser produced by LaserPerformance, in addition to any Laser Class approved boat, keeping racing truly One Design. Whether you own a new boat or borrow a well-loved Laser from your local club, all sailors are encouraged to join and be a part of this exciting initiative.

The environment is vital, and we encourage you all to be part of the Clean Regatta initiative: Clean Regattas is a certification system that enables sailors to protect their local waters with 25 Best Practices that make sustainability approachable and easy.

 

 

Join the Laser League and race against the world!

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[tillerman 1,316]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Everybody qualifies, and it’s free. One thing nice - it will be in Portugal.

Obrigado!

[MR.CLEAN 3,853]

3 hours ago, chuso007 said:

If I were TLC (or Rastegard for that matter), I'd be fucking embarrased .

And If I were WS I'd bill them for the time wasted.

Same as every document I've seen over the past 15 years prepared by Rastey or his team: Embarrassing.

 

[MR.CLEAN 3,853]

2 hours ago, tillerman said:

TheLaserClass can now concentrate on its core mission of supporting grass roots sailing,

Anyone know who the person is who is running this core mission?  We all know it ain't the boss.  Who have they tapped into who has a track record of supporting grass roots sailing, and is it a full time job?

 

[Gouvernail 2,883]

Games are defined by their rules. Associations are defined by their Constitutions. 
Those rules and Constitutions are generally written in such a manner as to allow the members and players to seek out and install desired modifications. 
Those who decide to Ignore the proper processes are generally not allowed to have their changes. 
 

The recent action by WS makes absolutely no sense. 
WS is demanding proper process from those  attempting to re-start The Laser Class but is allowing vigilantes forming a new ILCA to do as they please.
 

 

Summary:

1. Some people decided Lasers built by LP were no longer welcome in their games.

2. Some people created a new game called ILCA

3. The people who manufacture Lasers attempted to re-start the Laser game. 

4. World Sailing refused to allow Lasers to have their approval 

5. The International Laser Class Association Constitution still has not been properly amended ( votes)  to allow its operations to be moved from England or to allow boats other than Lasers to participate in their sanctioned events 

WHAT A MESS!!!! 

[Bill5 1,658]

19 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Anyone know who the person is who is running this core mission?  We all know it ain't the boss.  Who have they tapped into who has a track record of supporting grass roots sailing, and is it a full time job?

 

[tillerman 1,316]

18 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Games are defined by their rules. Associations are defined by their Constitutions. 
Those rules and Constitutions are generally written in such a manner as to allow the members and players to seek out and install desired modifications. 
Those who decide to Ignore the proper processes are generally not allowed to have their changes. 
 

The recent action by WS makes absolutely no sense. 
WS is demanding proper process from those  attempting to re-start The Laser Class but is allowing vigilantes forming a new ILCA to do as they please.
 

 

Summary:

1. Some people decided Lasers built by LP were no longer welcome in their games.

2. Some people created a new game called ILCA

3. The people who manufacture Lasers attempted to re-start the Laser game. 

4. World Sailing refused to allow Lasers to have their approval 

5. The International Laser Class Association Constitution still has not been properly amended ( votes)  to allow its operations to be moved from England or to allow boats other than Lasers to participate in their sanctioned events 

WHAT A MESS!!!! 

Something needs to be done about it.

[spankoka 139]

What difference does this all make to people at the club level? 

[Admiral Hornblower 219]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:34 AM, RobbieB said:

I vote for closure of this thread.  

ILCA is well on it's way now.

 

Perhaps interested parties could start a new thread?  Something like, "Is the LP Laser gonna make it?" or "LP- Shot in the Foot club- applications here." 

[tillerman 1,316]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:34 AM, RobbieB said:

I vote for closure of this thread.  

ILCA is well on it's way now.

 

 

[RobbieB 1,221]

17 hours ago, tillerman said:

Boring!!!!!

It's so much fun watching the two dueling Laser classes. I was really hoping it would result in two competing Laser World Championships, and a  massive fight about which Laser should be in the Olympics etc. etc. 

But no. The boring grey bureaucrats at World Sailing want to stop TheLaserClass from being accepted as a World Sailing Class.

In the long run, I guess it's a Good Thing. TheLaserClass can now concentrate on its core mission of supporting grass roots sailing, and leave ILCA to focus on the Olympics, the elite sailors, new rigs, colored sails and women in China.

We need to remember that WS has a bit of history dealing with LP and Rasty.  Clearly they have no desire to do so again.  Until LP, (or that particular build shop of Laser sailboats) is under new ownership it would appear they have little chance of growing beyond being a cut rate "Laser" builder.