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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Certainly we would all run right out and buy Lasers if somebody started building and promoting them again. The Laser is a great boat for play and racing. I wonder how many years it would take at five boats, five sets  of extra parts,  and ten extra sails a day to fill all the North American dealers’ ’ back orders from the LP days?? 
   I wonder if LP would willingly franchise the Laser name and whether Kirby inc  would offer up a contract ?

    Gotta wonder how much the lawyers would make while fighting over the assets of the North American and International Laser Class Associations. 
 

PS: no way in hell I want any part of that mess. I just want somebody to start building and promoting Lasers again so our fleets won’t continue slowly withering away. 

 

D12 is growing in leaps and bounds Gov.  For the first time in years we've actually had NEW laser er, ILCE hulls show up to a regatta.  We have a new ZIM dealer located in Charleston selling and delivering all kinds of class legal ILCA parts.  

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

On Aero?

For me or the world.

For me , No . The Aero is a great boat and a much better all round  package than the Laser ,but I have raced one a few times and I really don’t like the feed back it gives you going up wind . I am very happy not to need fleet racing , all the clubs near me all do py racing so I can sail what ever boat I want . Currently sailing a British moth ( similar to your Classic moths but with a bigger rig) but will be swapping to D zero next year.:D

 

 

For the world , Yes. It will become the go to singlehander, but will it ever become or have the impact of the Laser? I just cannot see it, the world is a very different place these days.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

How can anything ILCA be Class legal when there has been no vote by the membership to allow anything other than Laser parts from Laser builders?? 
 

Are you referring to some new Class Association other than the International Laser Class Association? 
when was it founded? Where is it’s constitution? When were officers elected? 
 

At some point we need to actually demand the vigilantes be held  accountable 

 

PS: I am glad you and your friends are having fun on sailboats but there is no such thing as a “class legal ILCA.”

 


Vigilantes? Which one is Tracy?

rosebud-vigilantes_0-144x144-0_2-335_335

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:


Vigilantes? Which one is Tracy?

rosebud-vigilantes_0-144x144-0_2-335_335

I have done my very best not to name any of the vigilantes because too many people would improperly interpret my remarks as personal.

i have made it clear I agree with the need to extract control of our supply Chain from those who refuse to supply our toys. 
 

STEP ONE!!!!

Amend the Constitution so there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO QUESTION the freedoms are being obtained properly.

example: The class constitution INCLUDES the address of the office. 
 Well... that certainly is a pain in the ass. It means the procedures for amending the Constitution must be followed to move the Class office. 
 

Solution: Amend the constitution such tgat the class office location is no longer part of the constitution or so the class office is in a different location.

Not a solution:
Just move the office and change the words in the Constitution 

 

****
It is very simple and every single one of us understands it. The Constitution and rules don’t mean a damned thing if somebody can just change it because he feels like changing it. 
 

itbis EXACTLY the same as your competitor deciding he has right of way on port. ...

Until he tacks  and then he has right of way on starboard 

until he tacks 

but of course you can make up your rules  too 

nice outboard motor ya got there!!! 
 

Sailors who turn 68 in 2021 get to use a jet drive and foils 

****
if you don’t like the Constitution and rules... there is a system for changing them and each of us only gets ONE VOTE!!! 

 

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39 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Where did Mr Clean’s comment go?? 

Well I could tell you that he might have deleted them for fear of being sued for gross stupidity but the reality is they are in the other Laser thread. 

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

Well I could tell you that he might have deleted them for fear of being sued for gross stupidity but the reality is they are in the other Laser thread. 

I got a notice saying he quoted me in a post but found no such post. I think he probably deleted it. 

 

6 hours ago, Xeon said:

Gouv I admire a lot of your posts , but sometimes you just come across as a better/worse troll than Wess:D

All I am asking is for the  guys to operate by the rules that define their position and authority. 
failure to operate within the sailing rules creates.....

wait

for 

it

.

.

.

 

Sailing Anarchy

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

. It seems some vigilantes have run off with the assets of the International Laser Class Association  And are claiming to be some new organization 

I do wish you'd give up on that shtick. I am no fan of the way ILCA conduct their affairs, but classes changing the class name and association name is nothing unusual. In my database of classes I keep for the RYA there are some that have changed their name twice. Acrimonious fallings out with builders are also nothing unusual.

Yes, I do think that ILCA need to get on with the housekeeping and make all the paperwork consistent, but that's all it is, housekeeping, and they've got a s***load of more important stuff on their plate too.

At least nothing the current cttee has got up to is as sketchy as the way the Heini Wellman regime pushed through the 2011 change, and in hindsight that sure seems as if it was a mistake, since it just postponed the mess, which has got worse in the meantime. There are all sorts of things you could say about the criticisms Mr Wellman is making of his successors when considering how things were done back then on his watch. 

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Funny, saw some of the old Laser sailor newsletters  at the club that  are titled

THE LASER SAILOR

INTERNATIONAL LASER CLASS ASSOCIATION - North American Region 

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, JimC said:

I do wish you'd give up on that shtick. I am no fan of the way ILCA conduct their affairs, but classes changing the class name and association name is nothing unusual. In my database of classes I keep for the RYA there are some that have changed their name twice. Acrimonious fallings out with builders are also nothing unusual.

 

 

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4 hours ago, JimC said:

I do wish you'd give up on that shtick. I am no fan of the way ILCA conduct their affairs, but classes changing the class name and association name is nothing unusual. In my database of classes I keep for the RYA there are some that have changed their name twice. Acrimonious fallings out with builders are also nothing unusual.

Yes, I do think that ILCA need to get on with the housekeeping and make all the paperwork consistent, but that's all it is, housekeeping, and they've got a s***load of more important stuff on their plate too.

At least nothing the current cttee has got up to is as sketchy as the way the Heini Wellman regime pushed through the 2011 change, and in hindsight that sure seems as if it was a mistake, since it just postponed the mess, which has got worse in the meantime. There are all sorts of things you could say about the criticisms Mr Wellman is making of his successors when considering how things were done back then on his watch. 

I call  bullshit about  having more important items on their plate   

STEP ONE!!! is to seek official permission. 
The ballots could have been created in a couple hours at any time. 
 

example:

The Officers and world  Council have unanimously voted to move the office from England to Austin Texas. As the address of the class office is specified in the Constitution we must amend that constitution to make the move. We are asking the membership to vote yes on a Constitutional Amendment officially relocating the office. 
 

The new wording in the Constitution shall be :

Headquartered at:

1234 any st

Austin tx   787***
USA

 

This should have been accomplished before the office was moved!!

 

Every single NECESSARY change Is exactly that simple. 

Failure to abide by the Constitution invalidates any action taken. 
 

One more time!!
I agree with the changes. I will vote for the changes. Failure to properly make the changes exposes the officers to litigation by disgruntled opposition and makes it possible to make a case for The Laser Class 

If the Laser Class guys weren’t such incompetents EVERYTHING for which the vigilantes have worked so hard would already be at risk 

****
Write the damned ballots and get the “i”s dotted and the “t”s crossed 


On what planet is my advice incorrect?? 
 

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Gouv .

As Jim C says ‘ please get off this high horse ‘ there is nothing going  on here . The class association is the same , the boat is the same , it’s has to be called after the class association because a ex builder has has a legal right to use a word and a logo in certain markets nothing more .

The class association is doing what you have always said you wanted . More boats being supplied to your market, more builders and is supporting grass roots sailing . Plus at NO time have they broken their own rules .

We all have respect what you have done and continue to do for sailing in your area but you are increasingly sounding like a sad old man crying at the moon because of an irrelevant change of a word. 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

I disagree It is straightforward to change the constitution, but no one has bothered to.  Changing it would provide legitimacy to ilcas actions.  As it stands I believe ILCA officials are acting unconstitutionally.  

 

If you have proof they did something improper, then take it to world sailing.

https://www.sailing.org/about/governance/integrity.php

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I have no interest in causing grief. There is  absolutely no wsy I would initiate any action against the vigilantes. I agree with their goals.

The fact is, their in attention to details is leaving everything they are doing wide open for someone like a disgruntled trademark owner whose business is being decimated by their actions to present a mighty fine case.

”They are personally attacking my business. They are not even abiding by their own rules while doing so.”

The vigilantes are simply operating in a reckless manner when there is absolutely no excuse for doing so. 
 

Some have questioned my efforts and keep suggesting I back off.

I see myself as the guy standing by the ramp who repeatedly yells, “Your drain plug is not in the transom.”

I see those who are complaining the same way I see others at a launch ramp who keep telling me, “Stfu. Their drain plug is not your problem.”

 


 

 

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13 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

The Officers and world  Council have unanimously voted to move the office from England to Austin Texas. As the address of the class office is specified in the Constitution we must amend that constitution to make the move. We are asking the membership to vote yes on a Constitutional Amendment officially relocating the office. 

Changing address just requires a new By-Law. See (j) below. I don't know if they wrote a new By-Law, but they don't need to change the constitution. So ILCA was not unconstitutional in their undertaking. They may owe us (members) a bylaw, but no vote is required.

16. The World Council may make By-Laws for the purpose of carrying out the objects of this Constitution and of the Association and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, may make By-Laws

(a) amending the Rules of the Laser Class, hereby established as By-Law 1 of the Association, as provided in paragraph 29 thereof;
(b) respecting the establishment of Regions, and the powers of the Regional Executive Committees;
(c) delegating specific powers of the World Council to Regional Executive Committees;
(d) respecting the establishment of Districts and the powers of District Associations;
(e) respecting the Constitution and By-Laws of District Associations;
(f) respecting registration of members and collection of dues;
(g) respecting the measurement of boats and measurement fees;
(h) respecting the conduct of championship and other regattas, including the classification of regattas and the eligibility of members for major racing events;
(I) respecting the acceptance of deeds of gift of trophies;
(j) changing the Headquarters of the Association; and
(k) respecting the procedures for meetings of the World Council and Regional Executive Committees, including the conduct of business by mail or other means of communication.

9 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I disagree. I believe Gouv is right on this.  It is straightforward to change the constitution, but no one has bothered to.  Changing it would provide legitimacy to ilcas actions.  As it stands I believe ILCA officials are acting unconstitutionally.  

Not with respect to the address.  

So they are legitimate and constitutional. 

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And remember the Constitution is being amended following the input of members. I am sure this will clean a lot of stiff up, and be voted on. By members.

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It wasn’t really the change of address I was referring to. More this kind of stuff, constantly referring to Laser. surely by any reasonable interpretation the recognised Laser symbol is the starburst which they have now changed without amending para 2, etc?Jurisdiction over the Laser class throughout the world...

If these are such minor technicalities why not put the necessary changes to the vote and get it done?  
 

INSIGNIA
2. The emblem of the Class shall be the recognised Laser symbol, and the insignia of the officers shall be those prescribed by By-Law.

OBJECTS
3. The objects of the Association are

(1) to provide a medium of exchange of information among Laser sailors throughout the world and to enhance the enjoyment of these sailboats;
(2) to promote and develop Laser class racing in all countries, under uniform rules; and
(3) to encourage and foster the enjoyment of the sporting and recreational aspects of sailing.

POLICY
4. It shall be the policy of the Association to maintain the Laser as the epitome of a strict one-design class of
sailboat.

JURISDICTION
5. The Association has authority over all activities of the Laser Class throughout the world, and its powers shall be vested in and carried out by the World Council, Regional Executive Committees, District Associations and Fleets as provided in this Constitution and any By-Laws passed pursuant to the provisions hereof; all subject to and in accordance with the General Rules and By-Laws of the International Sailing Federation.

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Changing address just requires a new By-Law. See (j) below. I don't know if they wrote a new By-Law, but they don't need to change the constitution. So ILCA was not unconstitutional in their undertaking. They may owe us (members) a bylaw, but no vote is required.

16. The World Council may make By-Laws for the purpose of carrying out the objects of this Constitution and of the Association and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, may make By-Laws

(a) amending the Rules of the Laser Class, hereby established as By-Law 1 of the Association, as provided in paragraph 29 thereof;
(b) respecting the establishment of Regions, and the powers of the Regional Executive Committees;
(c) delegating specific powers of the World Council to Regional Executive Committees;
(d) respecting the establishment of Districts and the powers of District Associations;
(e) respecting the Constitution and By-Laws of District Associations;
(f) respecting registration of members and collection of dues;
(g) respecting the measurement of boats and measurement fees;
(h) respecting the conduct of championship and other regattas, including the classification of regattas and the eligibility of members for major racing events;
(I) respecting the acceptance of deeds of gift of trophies;
(j) changing the Headquarters of the Association; and
(k) respecting the procedures for meetings of the World Council and Regional Executive Committees, including the conduct of business by mail or other means of communication.

Not with respect to the address.  

So they are legitimate and constitutional. 

Here we go again

Knock it off with legitimate facts
 
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11 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

[...]

I see myself as the guy standing by the ramp who repeatedly yells, “Your drain plug is not in the transom.”

 

 


 

 

I needed you yesterday! First time it happened and it is not fun!

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On 10/30/2020 at 3:35 PM, sosoomii said:

It wasn’t really the change of address I was referring to. More this kind of stuff, constantly referring to Laser. surely by any reasonable interpretation the recognised Laser symbol is the starburst which they have now changed without amending para 2, etc?Jurisdiction over the Laser class throughout the world...

If these are such minor technicalities why not put the necessary changes to the vote and get it done?  
 

INSIGNIA
2. The emblem of the Class shall be the recognised Laser symbol, and the insignia of the officers shall be those prescribed by By-Law.

OBJECTS
3. The objects of the Association are

(1) to provide a medium of exchange of information among Laser sailors throughout the world and to enhance the enjoyment of these sailboats;
(2) to promote and develop Laser class racing in all countries, under uniform rules; and
(3) to encourage and foster the enjoyment of the sporting and recreational aspects of sailing.

POLICY
4. It shall be the policy of the Association to maintain the Laser as the epitome of a strict one-design class of
sailboat.

JURISDICTION
5. The Association has authority over all activities of the Laser Class throughout the world, and its powers shall be vested in and carried out by the World Council, Regional Executive Committees, District Associations and Fleets as provided in this Constitution and any By-Laws passed pursuant to the provisions hereof; all subject to and in accordance with the General Rules and By-Laws of the International Sailing Federation.

Funny, I never read the class constitution a single time until all this shit hit the fan. No interest. I might have read the rules, but I doubt it - everyone seemed to know what was going on. I remember the fifth or sixth time I got back into Laser racing was at a Nationals. I parked my new boat beside the favorite, whom I had never met, brought him a beer and asked if he would mind if I copied his setup. Of course he agreed, and I copied most of it knowing I would be legal. I am thinking most Laser sailors all found their way in a similar fashion.

Anyway, racing has gone on in spite of the word Laser and the insignia not being fixed up in the Constitution more quickly. Even the existing INSIGNIA verbiage is awkward  -  why would you have the insignia of the officers and the symbol of the boat under the same heading? Emblem, insignia and symbol in the same sentence is less than ideal. There are  inconsistencies and grammatical errors in all the documentation, which will hopefully will be corrected in the rewrite. Plus - when all this was percolating - ILCA were likely unsure as to how everything would settle out. Now that all is clear, they can more confidently make all the changes and put the new document in its entirety to a vote.

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45 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Even the existing INSIGNIA verbiage is awkward  -  why would you have the insignia of the officers and the symbol of the boat under the same heading? Emblem, insignia and symbol in the same sentence is less than ideal.

Weird, innit? I’m not really a rules kind of chap, but if your going to have them they may as well be followed.

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Weird, innit? I’m not really a rules kind of chap, but if your going to have them they may as well be followed.

Oh for sure. No argument there. I am just prone to cutting ILCA some slack with all that has transpired. 

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4 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Weird, innit? I’m not really a rules kind of chap, but if your going to have them they may as well be followed.

And you may as well make sure that any amendments don't make the rules confusing, awkward, ambiguous or just plain difficult to understand.

PS Are there any photos of ILCA class officers wearing their "insignia?"

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20 hours ago, tillerman said:

And you may as well make sure that any amendments don't make the rules confusing, awkward, ambiguous or just plain difficult to understand.

PS Are there any photos of ILCA class officers wearing their "insignia?"

Are there any photos of class officers with the new rigs at the Olympic boat trials?  You know the rigs the class never voted on but somehow ended up at the Olympic boat trials on behalf the class?  The ones to replace the white sails which were clearly not the future per some class officers?

#WeDon'tNeedNoStinkingVote

#ButWeDoNeedYourMoneySoWeWillTakeIt

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10 hours ago, Wess said:

Are there any photos of class officers with the new rigs at the Olympic boat trials?  You know the rigs the class never voted on but somehow ended up at the Olympic boat trials on behalf the class?  The ones to replace the white sails which were clearly not the future per some class officers?

#WeDon'tNeedNoStinkingVote

#ButWeDoNeedYourMoneySoWeWillTakeIt

#BlahBlahBlah

#GimmeFreshBait

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To the best of my knowledge, the "new" rigs never came out of their cardboard box, even though there was a lot of demend/presure for them to do so and they are now all in SFO.

At least get your facts right!

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8 hours ago, JulianB said:

To the best of my knowledge, the "new" rigs never came out of their cardboard box, even though there was a lot of demend/presure for them to do so and they are now all in SFO.

At least get your facts right!

Whaaaat?? That has not been a part of this 9000 post thread and would probably kill the fun. 

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9 hours ago, JulianB said:

To the best of my knowledge, the "new" rigs never came out of their cardboard box, even though there was a lot of demend/presure for them to do so and they are now all in SFO.

At least get your facts right!

Here we go again

Knock it off with posting  legitimate facts 

You'll get the troll and sock upset

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On 10/30/2020 at 3:49 PM, tillerman said:

So true.

I think we all had "Does not play well with others" on our elementary school report cards.

Actually most do play well with others. There are a lot of hard working ILCA members, volunteers  that do a lot not just for Laser sailing but racing in general

Then there are a very few fueled by their ego that........ I'll stop here 

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On 11/2/2020 at 1:37 PM, Wess said:

Are there any photos of class officers with the new rigs at the Olympic boat trials?  You know the rigs the class never voted on but somehow ended up at the Olympic boat trials on behalf the class?  The ones to replace the white sails which were clearly not the future per some class officers?

 

I love you too @VWAP.  And I am glad you make it so easy and make ILCA look so bad.  Go ahead and tell me what is not accurate in the post.  Dare you.

The class was the sponsor of the Laser at the Olympic boat trial (not any builder); FACT.  The class opted to take the new rigs to the trials; FACT.  The class didn't inform membership they were doing that; FACT. There never was and never has been a vote on the new rigs; FACT.  Current class leadership posted and wrote in favor of those new rigs that the future of the class was not the current white sails (that is a paraphrase but you know its damn close to the quote I admit I am too lazy to go find).  So look why don't you go rip off another juniors parents and post some more because its so easy to pick apart your lies and BS.  God I love this place.  Another fish on the line or dope on a rope. Same thing! 

Oh and Bill.  N stands for Not college.  Cheers!!

This thing is never going to die. So much fun to simply tell truth and piss off lemmings!!!

 

 

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Collegiate Dinghy Class Rules apply - not Laser class rules.

OMG,OMG,OMG is the academy also  collect super duper super secret fees so the officials can go on super duper super secret vacay's OMG,OMG,OMG 

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I read somewhere that some new-fangled rigs were going to take the ILCA class down. Anybody know where I can buy one? I can't find anything on the 6 (!) ILCA builders' sites. Fake news, I guess. 

There is a fancy rig on the Laser Performance website though. Fancy videos and everything. But you can't buy one of them either. I note it says they "aren't class legal". Seems to me that making them not available makes this statement redundant.

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42 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I read somewhere that some new-fangled rigs were going to take the ILCA class down. Anybody know where I can buy one? I can't find anything on the 6 (!) ILCA builders' sites. Fake news, I guess. 

There is a fancy rig on the Laser Performance website though. Fancy videos and everything. But you can't buy one of them either. I note it says they "aren't class legal". Seems to me that making them not available makes this statement redundant.

A Facebook friend of mine on Long Island bought a new Laser with two ARC rigs from a local dealer this summer.  



 

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22 minutes ago, tillerman said:

A Facebook friend of mine on Long Island bought a new Laser with two ARC rigs from a local dealer this summer.  



 

They may be collector’s items!

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If you want a C-Rig, then go to Bethwaite360.com and leave some contact details.

Someone will get back to you about how to get one.

They have been moving out steadily for a while, I think there are about 20 in stock (of all 3 sizes)

                      jB

 

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I read somewhere that some new-fangled rigs were going to take the ILCA class down. Anybody know where I can buy one? I can't find anything on the 6 (!) ILCA builders' sites. 

 

1 hour ago, JulianB said:

If you want a C-Rig, then go to Bethwaite360.com and leave some contact details.

Someone will get back to you about how to get one.

They have been moving out steadily for a while, I think there are about 20 in stock (of all 3 sizes)

                      jB

 


Go for it @Bill5. Post video of yourself sailing your C-rig.

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8 hours ago, JulianB said:

If you want a C-Rig, then go to Bethwaite360.com and leave some contact details.

Someone will get back to you about how to get one.

They have been moving out steadily for a while, I think there are about 20 in stock (of all 3 sizes)

                      jB

 

Didn’t mean to offend, Julian. Rig looks great  I was poking at a contributor who believes there is an ILCA/C rig conspiracy. 

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9 hours ago, JulianB said:

 

PM me if you would like some help!

                      jB

Bill is not the one  here that needs a psychiatrist. 

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3 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Anyway, it seems that both the ARC rigs and the C-rigs are getting out into the real world ...

... as independent ventures and clearly not as part of ILCA’s plans.

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We have a singlehanded sailboat regatta scheduled in Dallas in a couple weeks. 
I am looking forward to the sailing instructions. 
“Sailed under the yet to be written rules of a non-existent organization and only those boats and equipment who fit the rules we plan to write someday may compete. “

 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

... as independent ventures and clearly not as part of ILCA’s plans.




@Bill5, my friend, why are you so keen to distance ILCA from the C-rigs? 

Isn't it clear that ILCA and ALCA have been intimately involved with the C-Rig project at every step of the way?

Check out this statement from Julian for example. https://bethwaite360.com/laser-c-rig/  

LASER C-RIG HISTORY 

6 March 2019

It’s been about 4 months since Eric Faust (Exc Sec of ILCA) showed the C5 video at Sarasota, which was then shown on Sailing Anarchy, Scuttlebutt and other social media platforms and some suggested that I should not add facts to spoil a good conspiracy theory.

It’s time to just set the record straight so the conversation can be re-centred.

C-Rigs, as they have become known, spun out of a far more comprehensive rig development project that Up Marine started in 2012.   In chronological order:-

Up Marine decided to use the Laser because of its superior numbers and simplicity.

Chris Caldecott (GM, PSA) found out about the project, mid 2014 and asked if we could ‘screw’ the development to generate a new carbon rig for the Laser.   MoU’s were generated and we altered focus a little.

At the 2014 ILCA conference (Nov), I am told, Chris showed photos and reported on the development.

2015 a Worldwide Patent was applied for (by Up Marine) and has been subsequently granted.

2015 ILCA conference (Oct), what is now referred to as the C8 rig, was reported in glowing terms and I am told that focus changed from the C8 prospect to the C5 and the plight of Asians given that the 4.7 rig which is hugely successful in Europe, has failed to gain traction elsewhere to any reasonable level.   Hugh Leicester (VP ILCA), Chris Caldecott and I met on the sidelines of the Sail Sydney regatta and Hugh saw the rig first hand.

There is correspondence between ILCA and PSA re the rigs, expressing “excitement”.

Just a side note, at this point the C-rig project had chewed through 28 masts, and 4 sails! It had been sailed by the likes of Tom Burton, Gerard West, Brett Perry and possibly 10 other biggish sailors. What has become known as the Flame Rig photo, the boat is being sailed by Chris Caldecott and the photo was taken by myself, in Chowder Bay Sydney 17th Dec 2015.

In February 2016, Prof Tracy Usher (Pres of ILCA) travelled from San Francisco to Sydney for the day to sail the C8.    Subsequent meeting at the Royal Sheaf hotel with Tracy, Hugh, Chris and myself started to map out a process but at this stage, the Asian issue and the lack of traction of the 4.7 started to come to the fore.

Mid 2016, lead builder started to move from PSA to PSJ, mostly due to the physical stature of the principals.     Chris is 95kgs and a big man, whereas Takao Otani (Owner, MD PSJ) is significantly lighter.

Plus, Takao and I had met in Montreal in 1978 under the watchful eye of the late great Ian Bruce and had become life long friends.    Takao was pivotal in the 49er and 29er programs being a founding partner.   The 29er just would not have happened without Takao, so there was considerable history between the 2 of us.

By late 2016 a complete re-thinking of the smaller stature rig had started and we trialled various breakthroughs, the biggest one was the spliced mast which allowed us to get the Centre of Effort in the right place WRT the CLR which in turn leads to weather helm (or in this case lack of it) without ridiculous mast bend, which leads to longevity and ease of pulling the mainsail up.

By Early 2017, what is now known as the C5 was being sailed out of RSYS, by their junior program and a rolling development program had been put in place in which the rig and the fitting development evolved at a rapid rate.    Nothing quite like arm’s length testing.

There were various meetings between Tracy, Eric, the late Jeff Martin, Takao and myself, mostly at WS conferences.

Early 2018 Takao visited Sydney and sailed the new C5 rig and was very impressed, it was a day of a lot of wind.  (Takao had not seen the C8 so I sailed it) and videos were made, these videos were sent back to Tracy and ILCA and a decision was taken that ILCA should generate (and pay for) a video before the next WS Conference, which was May 2018.

The weather did not co-operate so there were a few attempts but we did get the video to London in May, but it was not shown.   I was overseas at the time, this job fell to my son, Harry.

March 2018, Up Marine and PSJ entered into a formal contractual arrangement WRT the C-Rigs.

Mid 2018 both Tracy and Eric travelled to Sydney to, among other things, see the C5 which again happened at RSYS and the “talking head clips” that you see in the video were done then.

Also mid 2018 the project spun off the 29erC rig that is now being used in China extensively!

One of the C5 rigs was flown to Japan for Takao to test in the local market. That lead to some subtle but significant modifications.

There was a meeting on the sidelines of Sarasota WS Conference between Takao, Tracy, Chris, Jeff, Eric and myself re the introduction of the C5.

By late 2018 ILCA/ALCA had decided that the C5 should be released into a nationwide (Australia) trial.

Ken Hurling (Pres ALCA & VP ILCA) who was already aware of the project embraced this opportunity with both hands, and the minutes of those meetings are in the public space, so I won’t repeat them.

The last 4 months has been chaotic.

We took the decision, that if you are going to have a family of rigs, then you have to actually make them otherwise you have no idea of what pit-falls await you, so we did just that, C8 was relatively easy until we made the decision that all rigs should be of such a length they can be “checked in” as over size luggage on most commercial flights.    C5 & C6 are relatively easy.   C8 is more complicated.

Clive Watts (owner of CST) developed a new technique to “kink” the mandrel in the winding process, so it comes off the machine finished.  Click on image to enlarge.

Kink-in-Laser-C-Rig-300x179.jpg

The rig then went to Davenport, Tasmania to be sailed by as many kids as wanted to, it was flown back, and along with the C6 underwent 5 days of intensive testing and refinement by Takao and myself including Ian MacDiarmid tweaking the sails daily, fitting changes, re-running systems. This all happened Dec 2018.

ILCA wanted the C5 rig with a full specification “suitable for the LCM” so they engaged Clive Humphries (tech officer, ILCA) to generate the whole spec.   Clive travelled to China with Ian to oversee the whole sail making process, he also liaised with Clive Watts about the mast making process and he spoke with me and has a full set of drawings/3d files.

Feb  2018 some parts of the project have been spun off to be used on the 49er- FX rigs post Tokyo!

2 days ago, we (Chris, Ian, Clive Watts and I) put every rig in a Laser and checked the whole process and those 3 rigs, C5, C6 and C8 are on their way to Valencia.

The plan is to produce 100 C5 rigs for Australia over the next 4 months and scatter them across the country with a few leaking into Asia and no doubt to other parts to test the whole process that we have gone through to ensure it is fit for market.

Again, ALCA position, how they plan to do that along with PSA, is in the public domain.

Arms-length testing is critical, we have learnt that time and time again, nothing beats it.

From my POV, the C5 is near perfect in terms of a final product.

The C6, yes I have sailed it, and I have watched Takao sail it, but I have not seen a young 60kg girl/boy sail it.  It has been sailed extensively with glowing reports, but I can’t sign it off unless I see it with my own eyes.     That will happen mid this year maybe, and there will be maybe 5 rigs made.

The C8, in a previous incarnation, I have sailed many times, in everything from 5 – 30 knots, I have tried to break it, I have also capsized it and it’s a lot of fun.     We are not done on the “checked luggage” solution yet, but the rig looks good.   Chris has sailed it and believes it’s “fit for purpose!”.

Again, that will all happen later this year maybe, and there will be maybe 5 rigs made for test.

The feedback from Ken, the analysis of the feedback coming from SM, particularly the interest coming from Asia, in particular for the C5 concept would tell me that Tracy and the ILCA/ALCA have hit the nail right on the head.   This has been a clever, think outside the box, structured plan.

This will always be a situation in flux, and change is always painful, but if done well, it always leads to significant up-side, and if you need any examples of that, the Radial rig is a case in point as is the Carbon rig on the 49er/FX –  both have lead to significant growth in the classes and in the case of the 49er/FX massive reductions in running cost.

It will be a busy year.

Julian Bethwaite

 

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:


@Bill5, my friend, why are you so keen to distance ILCA from the C-rigs? 

Isn't it clear that ILCA and ALCA have been intimately involved with the C-Rig project at every step of the way?

 

I like the rigs, they are very cool - but not as a replacement for what the boat has now. Same with the Rooster 8.1. If folks want to sail that hull with a different rig, go for it. If the C 5 is a more suitable rig for people of smaller stature in SE Asia, same thing. But the fact is the Standard and Radial won the Olympic bid - done deal. I believe ILCA - with best of intentions - were in a bit of shock as their builder lost their way, there were sexier choices becoming available, and the Olympics were at risk. In what I assume is a correct quote from Improper Course, Julian said:

"Two days ago, Chris, Ian, Clive Watts and I put every rig in a Laser and checked the whole process and then sent the C5, C6 and C8 rigs to Valencia, Italy as an insurance policy." 

So, if all went to hell, they had a Hail Mary. Since then, they have been in a box in SFO and we haven't heard a peep about these rigs. So I am not sure the "intimate involvement" statement is accurate. Julian is having success selling them under his own brand, which is great. But they are not part of the ILCA Dinghy, and I like it that way. 

ILCA's future is right now - refreshed as an Olympic boat with three new builders, and perhaps more to come. The focus has to be laser-like (^_^) promoting the existing boat with the new builders without potential rig change or other distractions on the 4 - 8 year horizon (isn't 8 yrs the Olympic term?). 

So that is why I am keen to distance ILCA from the new rigs. If it comes to a vote - I would vote against. I think any voting should take place outside the US...

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49 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I like the rigs, they are very cool - but not as a replacement for what the boat has now. Same with the Rooster 8.1. If folks want to sail that hull with a different rig, go for it. If the C 5 is a more suitable rig for people of smaller stature in SE Asia, same thing. But the fact is the Standard and Radial won the Olympic bid - done deal. I believe ILCA - with best of intentions - were in a bit of shock as their builder lost their way, there were sexier choices becoming available, and the Olympics were at risk. In what I assume is a correct quote from Improper Course, Julian said:

"Two days ago, Chris, Ian, Clive Watts and I put every rig in a Laser and checked the whole process and then sent the C5, C6 and C8 rigs to Valencia, Italy as an insurance policy." 

So, if all went to hell, they had a Hail Mary. Since then, they have been in a box in SFO and we haven't heard a peep about these rigs. So I am not sure the "intimate involvement" statement is accurate. Julian is having success selling them under his own brand, which is great. But they are not part of the ILCA Dinghy, and I like it that way. 

ILCA's future is right now - refreshed as an Olympic boat with three new builders, and perhaps more to come. The focus has to be laser-like (^_^) promoting the existing boat with the new builders without potential rig change or other distractions on the 4 - 8 year horizon (isn't 8 yrs the Olympic term?). 

So that is why I am keen to distance ILCA from the new rigs. If it comes to a vote - I would vote against. I think any voting should take place outside the US...

Fair enough.

I must admit it's not clear to me how the ILCA Dinghy could transition to the new rigs. But the involvement and commitment and public statements  over the years by the key players at ILCA and ALCA do suggest to me that they are thinking of some kind of role for new rigs in the ILCA's future. I can also see why many current ILCA sailors would oppose that, so I do respect your position.


 

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@Bill5 are you saying or implying that ILCA class leadership wasn't fully aware of and in fact the decision makers to bring those rigs to the Olympic boat trials (without having notified or sought a class vote for same)?

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31 minutes ago, Wess said:

@Bill5 are you saying or implying that ILCA class leadership wasn't fully aware of and in fact the decision makers to bring those rigs to the Olympic boat trials (without having notified or sought a class vote for same)?

No

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39 minutes ago, Wess said:

@Bill5 are you saying or implying that ILCA class leadership wasn't fully aware of and in fact the decision makers to bring those rigs to the Olympic boat trials (without having notified or sought a class vote for same)?

 

8 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

No

Thank you.  Just wanting to be clear about that.

And for me this goes to @Gouvernail point as well.  The rules just don't matter or get made up as they go along. 

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9 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

Thank you.  Just wanting to be clear about that.

And for me this goes to @Gouvernail point as well.  The rules just don't matter or get made up as they go along. 

What I was saying is ILCA took them as “an insurance policy”.  No idea how they thought it could possibly play out, but hope for the best and plan for the worst, I suppose. As a member, I didn’t care. 

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Wess, Why do you think the Olympic selection committee gives a fig about what the class wants.   It is their party and they invite exactly what they want to it.   Ask the Tornado Class.....  Huge class vote NO on spinnakers.... IOC.... nah... we will make a new class using the T and it will be....   End result  Class has Spinakers AND next round, a new mast.... then and a new championship competition rule..    (No wind minimum for China competition).  The role of the class president is to not got steamrolled and preserve as much of the class independence as he/she can get while surviving the spears of outrage from the class membership.... ask John Forbes (Aus) and then Mike Greenfield (USA).   The IOC would have ignored the Laser class association and just gone to builders had class leadership done anything other then go along.  The Olympic competitors don't give a fig about the class/history/future.... they care about the quad they are competing in and perhaps the following quad.   Rank and file sailors had to choose as well and they fell in line.    Same basic story for Laser.   The Olympics played their hand...   the class adjusted.... the Olympic sailors are just in it for the quad... and the rank and file fall in line.   LPE will do their thing....but they are inconsequential now.    I don't think a class has a choice in the matter unless they actually own the intellectual property and even then they are f'd..  The power the olympics deploys will always get a builder to make a self interested decision and when fate changes the circumstances  on the ground... (no multihull) the fall out is widespread.   Marstrom does not build Tornado's any longer.

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We will have to agree to disagree.  There is much different about the Tornado and Laser situation (even ignoring LPE being out of it) that you either know about and if so are trolling (so no I will not bite) or if you don't know then its not my job to fill you in.  You have been posting that Tornado story all over the place for ages but it doesn't have relevance here.

 

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

We will have to agree to disagree.  There is much different about the Tornado and Laser situation (even ignoring LPE being out of it) that you either know about and if so are trolling (so no I will not bite) or if you don't know then its not my job to fill you in.  You have been posting that Tornado story all over the place for ages but it doesn't have relevance here.

 

Wess . I have to admire your bare faced cheek and marvel at you lack of understanding of irony when you call someone else a Troll .:D

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

Look but don't touch.  @tillerman may even "hammer" us with a song video about that.


You are all being mean to ILCA leadership (and to that nice gentleman from the Tornado Class.) 

You don't deserve any videos.

All you are going to get is this picture.

 

c5_rig_in_garda_2.jpg.7b4286c2763b47131c4560459c55380b.jpg

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Who are you calling a gentleman?  They don't cruise to windward and they don't sail multihulls.  Might soil their ascots.  Can't touch this.  Sigh... I gotta do everything around here.

 

 

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In the Winter 2020 issue of The Laser Sailor, the newsletter of the North American ILCA Class, ILCA North America President Andy Roy wrote an excellent article about the C-rigs and closed by saying that he was hoping to get some C-5 rigs into North America soon for sailors to try out.

Does anybody have any news - or even better, photos or video - of Laser/ILCA C5s being trialed in North America?

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

OK. OK.  I'll give you a video if you insist.
 

 

And as the dad of the girl featured in the video, I can confidently say she loved the C5 rig and being involved in the program, would sail it again in an instant and race it if she could,  but still loves her radial / ILCA7 and still charges towards the Harbour Bridge - these pics from just last weekend where she and a bunch of 30 or so hardened sailors had an epic Saturday afternoon of racing at the mighty Double Bay Sailing Club in 20-25 knots ...

845B05B3-01BC-467B-B838-F5B4279944FD_1_105_c.jpeg

474B72B0-E4C6-4451-B2A1-A89062C0AF8A_1_105_c.jpeg

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47 minutes ago, Stanno said:

And as the dad of the girl featured in the video, I can confidently say she loved the C5 rig and being involved in the program, would sail it again in an instant and race it if she could,  but still loves her radial / ILCA7 and still charges towards the Harbour Bridge - these pics from just last weekend where she and a bunch of 30 or so hardened sailors had an epic Saturday afternoon of racing at the mighty Double Bay Sailing Club in 20-25 knots ...

845B05B3-01BC-467B-B838-F5B4279944FD_1_105_c.jpeg

As your daughter is an active ILCA sailor, what is her position on all of these allegations of super duper improper actions by the class leadership and about all those super duper super secret fees the class is collecting on all things Laser?

Or is she just interested in  actually  getting on the water and sailing and racing?

Great photo, congratulations 

 

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On 11/8/2020 at 1:33 PM, tillerman said:

 

Just a side note, at this point the C-rig project had chewed through 28 masts, and 4 sails! It had been sailed by the likes of Tom Burton, Gerard West, Brett Perry and possibly 10 other biggish sailors. What has become known as the Flame Rig photo, the boat is being sailed by Chris Caldecott and the photo was taken by myself, in Chowder Bay Sydney 17th Dec 2015.

 

I remember when the Flame Rig picture first appeared.  I thought there were denials it was actually being developed as a replacement rig for the class, that the Laser hull was just being used as a test mule.

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The whole C-Rig project was PSA hi-jacking a completly seperate development project.

The term Mule, not bad.     That "other" project is still on-going and nearing fruition

In 2015, we where 2 1/2 years into a 3 year HoA with PSA, that timed out.

Caldecott was then GM of PSA, he is no longer.

Takao Otani, (Owner PSJ) was alway keen o the C-Rig project and re-focused it on the 5, rather than the 8 (really a 7)

Takao was the reason you have a Radial and a 4.7 now.   

Anyway, posmisses where made, never by ILCA, don't hold your breath, none have come to being (how strange is that!!!!!!!!!).

Last time I saw or spoken to Tracy or Eric was a year ago in Bermuda.

I think they have there hands full.

I don't think I have spoken to Ken Hurley for well over a year, and Andy Roy, longer.

We ceased assuming that the ILCA will have any role in the C-Rig a long time ago.

It's a great rig, and it will spawn others, and that's what it's all about.

My brother still sails a Radial, (white Dacron) all be it with carbon spars.

                         jB

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15 hours ago, Stanno said:

And as the dad of the girl featured in the video, I can confidently say she loved the C5 rig and being involved in the program, would sail it again in an instant and race it if she could,  but still loves her radial / ILCA7 and still charges towards the Harbour Bridge - these pics from just last weekend where she and a bunch of 30 or so hardened sailors had an epic Saturday afternoon of racing at the mighty Double Bay Sailing Club in 20-25 knots ...

845B05B3-01BC-467B-B838-F5B4279944FD_1_105_c.jpeg

474B72B0-E4C6-4451-B2A1-A89062C0AF8A_1_105_c.jpeg

Great photos!

This is me having a blast on my old 73' laser also, on a beautiful summer evening.

 

 

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ACtC-3dp5WxZy3OvfycDwltnp2La5ucp8TA97GzOmWzj5PAoUQ-vIez1HUnZBRzH8SwIjKGDtaXS59nSF7GsVOrJAKxvBosnMmsGseL8GTU3Reqat7X5HfIa93sojX9JqMLdj3ED5jyuBTHo4t0C_6iEUk_F=w1299-h867-no?authuser=0

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