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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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19 minutes ago, Wess said:

Gents - This ain't hard.  There have been many more truly new boats (not charter boats) sold in Europe than in US for many years now.  Nothing to do with supply or LPE, but the NA market is minimal compared to Europe and has been for a while AFAIK.  So why would you build in NA for a dead market and have to ship across an ocean for an active one when you can build in Europe. And if you have been following politics for the past few years there is this whole tariffs thing and mini trade war going on.  I don't think it makes sense to build in NA which is why I always thought and said the ILCA comment that there would be a local builder was BS. 

bullshit. The income that paid for the house I grew up in and my college education call TOTAL bullshit. However, you can shrink a market by failing to market to it or serve it for 13 years, but you've got a serious post hoc ergo propter hoc mistake on your hands. 

DRC

PS. Yeah this is why bruce kirby and ian bruce were dutch and the first 1000 lasers were built and sold in europe, not North America.

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22 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Solid dealers (which we have) supported by quality, reliable and supportive builders (which we now have) are a big step. 

Well said.

In today's global economy does it really matter where your boat is built?

Do you care where your car or your phone (or your lawnmower) is built, as long as you can buy what you want when you want it, and get it fixed if it breaks?

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English please Dave. Are you saying the NA Laser market is more active (defined as # new boats sold) than the European market today or for the past few years?

We ain't talking half a century ago when of course it was reversed and what you say was true (then but not now).  Come on if it was such a great opportunity you could and would be building them (ILCAs) now.

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Let me make myself more clear.

***I had full unencumbered freedom to build and  market  the Laser in North America answering only to  my investors, I would gleefully take on the task and I know I would create a market  sufficient to sell thousands of new toys every year most of which would end up on well populated racecourses. 
   I am convinced my Laser company’s efforts and success would cause a boom in sailing of all kinds and within about ten years companies  that build other types of sailboats would enjoy huge increases in their sales.
 

*** There is currently no such opportunity because the builder no longer controls the North American market. 
 

**** If I already had a production line and my primary market were elsewhere, I might  dip my toes in the North American market. 
  Certainly if someone were to ask to buy containers full of boats I would sell them. 
 

** I would not invest Million$ without having full control of the market and I absolutely would not cede control of those million$ to an entity who has no financial investment in my business. 
 

******
Currently if I did want to build Lasers for North America  and I DO NOT have a scintilla of inclination to go forward:

I would secure all the “sailing related” rights pertaining to Laser. I would initiate legal action to take over the abandoned International Laser Class Association and recover its assets.

Then I would  go into the business of building toys, promoting those toys,  and managing a game played in those toys. 
 

But.... I currently have what I believe should be much more enjoyable plans for my remaining years on the planet. 
 

and... I will continue to host sailing events and to enjoy playing in events hosted by others. 

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Hmmm... Tiller I think we might need a "round and round" music video...

 
Dear Laser Sailors,

Since our last Newsletter on the 9th November you might have noticed that our class website, www.TheLaserClass.com was suddenly and inexplicably taken down by our host provider. This action was in response to tenuous legal action taken against The Laser Class by ILCA, an unnecessary antagonism leveled against The Laser Class, for the second time within a few months. It has, however, not changed our resolve to continue to be your representative body – the class that represents all sailors sailing the original One-Design Laser. In response to this spurious behavior, the Executive Committee felt it is necessary to respond with this short statement to its membership. A more focused response from LaserPerformance to these actions by ILCA will no doubt be imminent.

The Laser Class was set-up not to polarize the Laser sailing community, but to protect the interests of the original Laser sailor worldwide. The Laser Class has no interest in pursuing a confrontational course with ILCA. This same principal applies to the sports institutions and governing bodies. On the contrary, The Laser Class would welcome open and objective discussions on a fair and level playing field. In accordance with our own open and transparent policy as an association, The Laser Class Executive Council is, for example, refining both the class rules and the new constitutional documents, as discussed in the AGM, for the coming sailing season. Both documents will be updated on the website in due course.

The Laser Class Executive Committee will continue to concentrate their time and energy in preparing some exciting new events for 2021, expanding our global representation, and ensuring that the Laser One-Design ethos is upheld. Stay with us for the journey and animate your fellow Laser sailors to join us!

Best wishes and stay healthy!

-The Laser Class
 
Photo Courtesy of Miguel Andrade, Viana Sailing
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10 minutes ago, Wess said:
 
Dear Laser Sailors,

Since our last Newsletter on the 9th November you might have noticed that our class website, www.TheLaserClass.com was suddenly and inexplicably taken down by our host provider. This action was in response to tenuous legal action taken against The Laser Class by ILCA, an unnecessary antagonism leveled against The Laser Class, for the second time within a few months. It has, however, not changed our resolve to continue to be your representative body – the class that represents all sailors sailing the original One-Design Laser. In response to this spurious behavior, the Executive Committee felt it is necessary to respond with this short statement to its membership. A more focused response from LaserPerformance to these actions by ILCA will no doubt be imminent.

The Laser Class was set-up not to polarize the Laser sailing community, but to protect the interests of the original Laser sailor worldwide. The Laser Class has no interest in pursuing a confrontational course with ILCA. This same principal applies to the sports institutions and governing bodies. On the contrary, The Laser Class would welcome open and objective discussions on a fair and level playing field. In accordance with our own open and transparent policy as an association, The Laser Class Executive Council is, for example, refining both the class rules and the new constitutional documents, as discussed in the AGM, for the coming sailing season. Both documents will be updated on the website in due course.

The Laser Class Executive Committee will continue to concentrate their time and energy in preparing some exciting new events for 2021, expanding our global representation, and ensuring that the Laser One-Design ethos is upheld. Stay with us for the journey and animate your fellow Laser sailors to join us!

Best wishes and stay healthy!

-The Laser Class
 
Photo Courtesy of Miguel Andrade, Viana Sailing

Looking forward to seeing what events The Laser Class organizes in 2021.

I still have my real, original, One-Design Laser in the garage.

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8 hours ago, Wess said:

English please Dave. Are you saying the NA Laser market is more active (defined as # new boats sold) than the European market today or for the past few years?

We ain't talking half a century ago when of course it was reversed and what you say was true (then but not now).  Come on if it was such a great opportunity you could and would be building them (ILCAs) now.

Okay, I'll explain the latin. Post hoc ergo propter hoc: Happened after X therefore must have been caused by X. It's a common logical error.

You have this entire business case study 100% backwards.


DRC 

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I understand the Latin. It’s you I don’t. If you believed what you say then you would have decided to build ILCAs but instead you decided not to. Come on either there is this great NA market just abandoned by LPE or there isn’t. If there is as you seem to say there is nobody is better positioned - for all the reasons you mentioned earlier - to do it. So do it.

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I don't know why you guys all give Wess grief.  He's contrarian here, but, he's not a jerk about it.
He might say things some of you don't like - but, he's not wishing for doom and unmitigated failure on sailing.


There is no way anyone in North America is going to build ILCA boats.

Why, on god's green earth would any builder, with any brains, attempt that?
There are ~4 builders, from countries where labor is cheap as chips, building boats already.
There are ~3 others gunning for the top racing market.

The minimum production you need to produce to break even - with all the ILCA fees, is 250-300 boats.
NA hasn't had that many new boats sold in it, in years.
 

I mean, what exactly is the incentive/business case?
You invest in the tooling, spend years trying to build back the market, while cheap boats are everywhere AND the best boats are made in England?
A rush of orders from people in NA who will only buy an NA built boat?  - lol
Does someone think an NA company will then export 200 high cost boats a year to other markets? - no way


Ovington boats are being shipped by the container shortly to Canada, East Coast USA, West Coast USA.
PSA has had their boats here for a while (although I imagine that will shrink and shrink now that better alternatives are available).

 

There is zero reason anyone will start this in NA, unless they have good money they want to set on fire.

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46 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

I don't know why you guys all give Wess grief.  

Because he is usually a dick. (Note I don’t see a need for a builder in NA with the new entries).

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9 hours ago, Wess said:

I understand the Latin. It’s you I don’t. If you believed what you say then you would have decided to build ILCAs but instead you decided not to. Come on either there is this great NA market just abandoned by LPE or there isn’t. If there is as you seem to say there is nobody is better positioned - for all the reasons you mentioned earlier - to do it. So do it.

Profoundly disinterested for the following reason which has nothing to do with market size or growth potential. The old licensing agreements used to grant essentially a monopoly to each continent's builder. Now they are gone and territories are a thing of the past. How a business is meant to compete with other businesses without being able to change the specifications and processes for the product is lost on me. Free markets are critical to maximizing customer satisfaction, however, the deadlocked nature of the laser product runs entirely counter to the notion of a free market and is really only conducive to monopoly or oligopoly conditions.

DRC

ps. Not really intent on getting in a fight with anyone here so much as jumping on a chance to scream at my pet peeve. "sales are down" has countless other explanations than simply "there is no market/no customers". It can't be said enough.

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5 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I notice you don’t claim he is wrong though :)

 

 

He often is. I don’t know enough about the boatbuilding business to weigh in on this particular topic.

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4 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

How a business is meant to compete with other businesses without being able to change the specifications and processes for the product is lost on me. 

It considerably reduces the scope, but there are other vital factors in customer service, and there's a good case to suggest that its neglect of factors like quality of supply, delivery time, customer engagement and the like that have been significant factors in generating LPs poor reputation in the Americas. 

But it seems to me, from what I've casually read and seen, that specifications and processes are a particular strength of the business you've created, and going into an area of business where you can't take advantage of your company's particular strengths certainly doesn't sound like the very best plan. 

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

Come on either there is this great NA market just abandoned by LPE or there isn’t. 

* The market may still exist

* The market could probably be developed

* The market was robust twenty years ago. Lack of service of that market severely damaged the market 

* people are working to control redevelopment of the market 

* it is possible to believe the potential for great success exists while believing the current situation is inhibiting the possibility. 

*I do not see a sufficiently obvious path to success to inspire me to assemble or even join a team whose purpose is to make a living building boats and supplying  North America

 

 

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5 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Profoundly disinterested for the following reason which has nothing to do with market size or growth potential. The old licensing agreements used to grant essentially a monopoly to each continent's builder. Now they are gone and territories are a thing of the past. How a business is meant to compete with other businesses without being able to change the specifications and processes for the product is lost on me. Free markets are critical to maximizing customer satisfaction, however, the deadlocked nature of the laser product runs entirely counter to the notion of a free market and is really only conducive to monopoly or oligopoly conditions.

DRC

ps. Not really intent on getting in a fight with anyone here so much as jumping on a chance to scream at my pet peeve. "sales are down" has countless other explanations than simply "there is no market/no customers". It can't be said enough.

Thanks for a clear and accurate explanation. 

Good news is sales of new boats are up now that they are available to order or are in stock. The Class has done a good job in these difficult times. They should be commended.

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59 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Good news is sales of new boats are up now that they are available to order or are in stock. The Class has done a good job in these difficult times. They should be commended.

86851071_ScreenShot2020-11-13at11_41_25AM.thumb.png.e5af0eed15d13ac8010c2a87208947ce.png940063545_ScreenShot2020-11-13at11_42_33AM.thumb.png.eb802fc83ae977ace515e49bcd5ab564.png

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3 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

By whom?

I speculate that only the sticker was made in the USA...

It is an ad that has been distributed world wide, so LPE must be making those boats in the United States or at least in the Northern Mariana Islands  

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On 11/14/2020 at 3:50 AM, VWAP said:

It is an ad that has been distributed world wide, so LPE must be making those boats in the United States or at least in the Northern Mariana Islands  

I think you know the answer to this, but, no LP produces no boats in the US.

It is possible to petition the trade office to have your product certified as 'American Made' - if a certain percentage of the components / value add, is done here, in the US.
So, you can have a Chinese built hull, shipped here, and once you add the spars (US built), sail (not US built...but whatever I guess), labor to package it.  It is technically possibly to have a foreign built boat, with mostly foreign parts, called 'American'


But, that's not happening here, it's just left over advertising and stickers, or... a subtle attempt to mislead.

Aside from the Harken blocks, and aluminum spars... hmmmm, I don't really know anything else on a Laser that is made in the USA. 
Probably 5-10% of the value of the boat, tops?

I'd put stupidity over deceptive malice here, though, personally.

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3 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

I don't really know anything else on a Laser that is made in the USA. 
Probably 5-10% of the value of the boat, tops?

If they could afix a WS plaque to the hull (in the USA), that would add a bunch more % of value to the boat :lol:

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2 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Who makes all the class legal fittings for the laser? (and rudders, daggerboards, spars, etc...) 

There are many approved sources for Laser and ILCA fittings, but in general, it's a global supplychain.

The 'approvedbuilders' themselves, in general now, only build the hulls.  
Everything else is outsourced.

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For me, the biggest difference in price is not the hulls, it's  all the other stuff...

You can get a nice old hull for a few bucks, but the difference in price between legal and illegal parts to upgrade is brutal, more than double.

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On 11/13/2020 at 4:42 AM, Dave Clark said:

Profoundly disinterested for the following reason which has nothing to do with market size or growth potential. The old licensing agreements used to grant essentially a monopoly to each continent's builder. Now they are gone and territories are a thing of the past. How a business is meant to compete with other businesses without being able to change the specifications and processes for the product is lost on me. Free markets are critical to maximizing customer satisfaction, however, the deadlocked nature of the laser product runs entirely counter to the notion of a free market and is really only conducive to monopoly or oligopoly conditions.

DRC

ps. Not really intent on getting in a fight with anyone here so much as jumping on a chance to scream at my pet peeve. "sales are down" has countless other explanations than simply "there is no market/no customers". It can't be said enough.

I hear you but didn't you know all that when you put in the initial application to be a builder?  What changed and why did you folks pull out?  Heck,Wish you were building.  I and I am guessing many others would love to buy a Laser from a truly local builder like Fulcrum.

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Are you looking to buy?

I am looking to buy my wife a new planter for her flower garden as a birthday present, but on second thoughts an ILCA hull  -  even with a World Sailing plaque - doesn't really have as much character as something like this.

planter.jpg.7894b73f1efe29898771e2930ac4097d.jpg
 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

I am looking to buy my wife a new planter for her flower garden as a birthday present, but on second thoughts an ILCA hull  -  even with a World Sailing plaque - doesn't really have as much character as something like this.


814270414_rsAero.jpg.65ccc32a990cda773263aee602d837fb.jpg

FIFY

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Links: Fleet Page | Weather |  NOAA | Schedule
57b46535-6883-43a7-8bc1-36dd8af1640c.png

Sailors,

This is a follow up email to come down to the club to check on your boat, clean up, and properly tie down your Laser.  All boats should be tied down through the dolly and over the boat to a concrete block on either side of the dolly tires. Additionally, your bow should be tied to both the dolly and, even better, to another block at the bow.  Most of the boats that were off of dollies or trailers did not have the bow tied down.

The Dinghy Shop (www.dinghyshop.com) has their repair shop open and loaner boats available while repairs are made. The following may also be of interest for those interested in new boats from the Boat Locker:

A Note from Andrew Scrivan on UK Boats for Sale at the Boat Locker:

There are a growing number of us that are interested in buying new boats that come without plaques. Scott at the Boat locker will be receiving a shipment of boats towards the end of this month. These are new 2020 LP UK “blue” boats. These are the same boats that they have built for years with tight mast rake tolerances and light weight at around 126 lbs, just without World Sailing stickers. 

If you primarily race at CP, AYC, Greenwich Laser Racing and other clubs/programs that allow them, it could be a great buy. 

The Boat Locker is offering the race package for $5,000 and the XD upgrade, with a carbon top and tiller, for $5,500.00

Please let me know if you are interested and I will add you to the list. Thanks- Andrew Scrivan. andrew@scrivan.com
 
Sincerely, 
Phil Hood
Fleet Captain 
6c0f3577-e07b-4434-842a-b92fad41bf87.jpg 1c597c96-3c21-4609-9ff2-76a9a653f2bc.jpg
da6e80aa-53ae-4982-ac3f-f522167dccfd.png a47de89c-03f5-48a3-8b37-b087ef73ff66.pngf9e576f6-6c64-42f0-8e13-e7484485d42f.gif 51e6e158-7119-498d-95fb-2a40697e2fbb.jpg 
Copyright © 2020 Cedar Point YC, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email because we want to race lasers with you at CPYC! We want you to be part of growing this fleet into the largest and best laser frostbite fleet in the world.

Fleet Treasurer:
Phil Myerson - flipmyerson@gmail.com


Cedar Point Yacht Club Address:
1 Bluff Point, Westport, CT 06880
 
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18 hours ago, Gouvernail said:
 
Links: Fleet Page | Weather |  NOAA | Schedule
57b46535-6883-43a7-8bc1-36dd8af1640c.png

Sailors,

This is a follow up email to come down to the club to check on your boat, clean up, and properly tie down your Laser.  All boats should be tied down through the dolly and over the boat to a concrete block on either side of the dolly tires. Additionally, your bow should be tied to both the dolly and, even better, to another block at the bow.  Most of the boats that were off of dollies or trailers did not have the bow tied down.

The Dinghy Shop (www.dinghyshop.com) has their repair shop open and loaner boats available while repairs are made. The following may also be of interest for those interested in new boats from the Boat Locker:

A Note from Andrew Scrivan on UK Boats for Sale at the Boat Locker:

There are a growing number of us that are interested in buying new boats that come without plaques. Scott at the Boat locker will be receiving a shipment of boats towards the end of this month. These are new 2020 LP UK “blue” boats. These are the same boats that they have built for years with tight mast rake tolerances and light weight at around 126 lbs, just without World Sailing stickers. 

If you primarily race at CP, AYC, Greenwich Laser Racing and other clubs/programs that allow them, it could be a great buy. 

The Boat Locker is offering the race package for $5,000 and the XD upgrade, with a carbon top and tiller, for $5,500.00

Please let me know if you are interested and I will add you to the list. Thanks- Andrew Scrivan. andrew@scrivan.com
 
Sincerely, 
Phil Hood
Fleet Captain 
6c0f3577-e07b-4434-842a-b92fad41bf87.jpg 1c597c96-3c21-4609-9ff2-76a9a653f2bc.jpg
da6e80aa-53ae-4982-ac3f-f522167dccfd.png a47de89c-03f5-48a3-8b37-b087ef73ff66.pngf9e576f6-6c64-42f0-8e13-e7484485d42f.gif 51e6e158-7119-498d-95fb-2a40697e2fbb.jpg 
Copyright © 2020 Cedar Point YC, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email because we want to race lasers with you at CPYC! We want you to be part of growing this fleet into the largest and best laser frostbite fleet in the world.

Fleet Treasurer:
Phil Myerson - flipmyerson@gmail.com


Cedar Point Yacht Club Address:
1 Bluff Point, Westport, CT 06880
 

Great to see this club doing the right thing. That is improved access and supporting grass roots sailing right there.  Tip my cap to them...

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Great to see this club doing the right thing. That is improved access and supporting grass roots sailing right there.  Tip my cap to them...

And let's tip our hats to Scott Hardy at the Boat Locker, the dealer who has supported grass roots Laser sailing at Cedar Point YC for many years, and is continuing to do so with this deal. 

PS. Scott also does a great job of supporting RS Aero sailing in New England.

photo-74.JPG

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I didn't and don't mean to slight Scott and/or Boat Locker but this seems to be driven by the good decisions made by the clubs to allow and include those boats.  So I was tipping my cap to the clubs.  Its basically a pathway to half priced boats that are essentially equal and I hope that in the same way the generic did this... it improves ease of access at the club and grass roots level. Going all the way back many years to the torch thread this is what I was and am endorsing.  Great to see it in practice and I wish them much success.  Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear is a great thing. 

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9 minutes ago, Wess said:

I didn't and don't mean to slight Scott and/or Boat Locker but this seems to be driven by the good decisions made by the clubs to allow and include those boats.  So I was tipping my cap to the clubs.  Its basically a pathway to half priced boats that are essentially equal and I hope that in the same way the generic did this... it improves ease of access at the club and grass roots level. Going all the way back many years to the torch thread this is what I was and am endorsing.  Great to see it in practice and I wish them much success.  Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear is a great thing. 

"Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear" certainly is a great thing for sailors. We should tip our hats to LaserPerformance too!

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

"Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear" certainly is a great thing for sailors. We should tip our hats to LaserPerformance too!

 A basic ILCA boats is $10,000.00?

And the LP  boats they are selling are raced in the Olympics?

 no tipoffs the hat to LP for all the disruption they have done for all these years.

PRODUCT DETAILS


laserperformance_logo.jpg

The world's most popular adult racing class.

 

Every Laser in the world is identical. Strict one-design class rules ensures this remains true. The best sailor on the water wins the race, not the boat. The Laser is a challenging boat that rewards athleticism, subtle steering and trimming techniques as well as tactical excellence. The Laser is the single-handed Olympic class dinghy and is raced on the Club, National and International Class levels. The Laser comes standard as a Laser race version.

http://www.dinghyshop.com/product/LP10004.html

 

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

"Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear" certainly is a great thing for sailors. We should tip our hats to LaserPerformance too!

There is some bad math going on here. Plus Boat Locker needs to update the prices on their website - unless this is a special price for certain clubs..

It is a good deal for a club boat, for sure.  But it ain't 50% less. And I wouldn't tip a toilet seat for LP. Bad eggs. 

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45 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

There is some bad math going on here. Plus Boat Locker needs to update the prices on their website - unless this is a special price for certain clubs..

It is a good deal for a club boat, for sure.  But it ain't 50% less. And I wouldn't tip a toilet seat for LP. Bad eggs. 

Don't be so Canadian.  It's a great deal.

 

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On 11/18/2020 at 9:23 PM, Bill5 said:

Hopefully more clubs will take advantage! I just can't see this price being sustainable.

Why not, exactly?

You have a pissed off owner who has lost 90% of his market share/sales, but by all accounts, he's filthy rich.
He's not done a lot of rational things in 10 years, and he's paid millions to lawyers to fight everything thrown his way.

The boats don't cost $5000 to build.
So, he can sell at low margins, to undercut ILCA, until the end of days.
Just because he wants to.
 

Which, if you go back, is what was predicted would happen, and now it's happening.
He can do it as long as he wants, he's not playing on a level battlefield here.
Heck, LP can do this just to irritate and ruin the ILCA market for years.

 

And we're seeing a fractured class.  The top 5% (active, vocal too) sailors go ILCA.
The 95% who are club sailors and don't care... now they have a much cheaper alternative.
And local classes are going to have an impossible situation where they tell their members 'uhm, you have to spend 50% more to race with us'
Maybe a few local fleets will do that, but, most just want boats on the line - they aren't going to artificially restrict participation because the class is at war with itself.

As ILCA moves to more carbon bits/expensive upgrades, it wouldn't even be surprising to see certain Laser fleets ban ILCA boats.
(assuming LP continues to produce and sell at that price, which I assume they will, they have no reason not to)

So, again, as long as 95% of sailors don't care who is sailing what.  It will all work out at local level.
But, as the boats are shown to be very different... lines will be drawn.

The top sailors have to do ILCA because of World Sailing, Worlds, and they have the money to do it.
The majority of sailors (the rest of us)... yeah, that's what LP is gunning for.

They suck as a company, they are dismal in their execution of plans.
But, if we've learned anything, they aren't going away - and now they are throwing grenades directly into the market.

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16 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

They suck as a company, they are dismal in their execution of plans.
But, if we've learned anything, they aren't going away - and now they are throwing grenades directly into the market.

Check availability? 

Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery.?

https://www.laserperformance.us/collections/laser-5

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16 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Why not, exactly?

You have a pissed off owner who has lost 90% of his market share/sales, but by all accounts, he's filthy rich.
He's not done a lot of rational things in 10 years, and he's paid millions to lawyers to fight everything thrown his way.

The boats don't cost $5000 to build.
So, he can sell at low margins, to undercut ILCA, until the end of days.
Just because he wants to.
 

Which, if you go back, is what was predicted would happen, and now it's happening.
He can do it as long as he wants, he's not playing on a level battlefield here.
Heck, LP can do this just to irritate and ruin the ILCA market for years.

 

And we're seeing a fractured class.  The top 5% (active, vocal too) sailors go ILCA.
The 95% who are club sailors and don't care... now they have a much cheaper alternative.
And local classes are going to have an impossible situation where they tell their members 'uhm, you have to spend 50% more to race with us'
Maybe a few local fleets will do that, but, most just want boats on the line - they aren't going to artificially restrict participation because the class is at war with itself.

As ILCA moves to more carbon bits/expensive upgrades, it wouldn't even be surprising to see certain Laser fleets ban ILCA boats.
(assuming LP continues to produce and sell at that price, which I assume they will, they have no reason not to)

So, again, as long as 95% of sailors don't care who is sailing what.  It will all work out at local level.
But, as the boats are shown to be very different... lines will be drawn.

The top sailors have to do ILCA because of World Sailing, Worlds, and they have the money to do it.
The majority of sailors (the rest of us)... yeah, that's what LP is gunning for.

They suck as a company, they are dismal in their execution of plans.
But, if we've learned anything, they aren't going away - and now they are throwing grenades directly into the market.

Some valid points here.

For me, LP was a loser at $7000+ boats - not sure how they will do any better at $5000. And I think Rasty likes money too much to simply throw it away. Vendetta or not. We shall see!

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are the folks at your clubs spending $5K US on a boat (new or 2nd hand), just doing local club racing, or broader regional/state/national events?  The people at my clubs spending that sort of coin are the ILCA class members doing the official events.  Those doing just local club racing are typically spending less than $3K US when they "upgrade"

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5 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Why not, exactly?

You have a pissed off owner who has lost 90% of his market share/sales, but by all accounts, he's filthy rich.
He's not done a lot of rational things in 10 years, and he's paid millions to lawyers to fight everything thrown his way.

The boats don't cost $5000 to build.
So, he can sell at low margins, to undercut ILCA, until the end of days.
Just because he wants to.
 

Which, if you go back, is what was predicted would happen, and now it's happening.
He can do it as long as he wants, he's not playing on a level battlefield here.
Heck, LP can do this just to irritate and ruin the ILCA market for years.

 

And we're seeing a fractured class.  The top 5% (active, vocal too) sailors go ILCA.
The 95% who are club sailors and don't care... now they have a much cheaper alternative.
And local classes are going to have an impossible situation where they tell their members 'uhm, you have to spend 50% more to race with us'
Maybe a few local fleets will do that, but, most just want boats on the line - they aren't going to artificially restrict participation because the class is at war with itself.

As ILCA moves to more carbon bits/expensive upgrades, it wouldn't even be surprising to see certain Laser fleets ban ILCA boats.
(assuming LP continues to produce and sell at that price, which I assume they will, they have no reason not to)

So, again, as long as 95% of sailors don't care who is sailing what.  It will all work out at local level.
But, as the boats are shown to be very different... lines will be drawn.

The top sailors have to do ILCA because of World Sailing, Worlds, and they have the money to do it.
The majority of sailors (the rest of us)... yeah, that's what LP is gunning for.

They suck as a company, they are dismal in their execution of plans.
But, if we've learned anything, they aren't going away - and now they are throwing grenades directly into the market.

Lemmings and lawnmowers canntt handle this much truth LOL.
 

Just as Trump will eventually go away, so too will the orange haired plaque nazis of ILCA. No doubt the ILCAers will find some dark corner to continue their elitist pickpocket ways but just as with generic sails and generic parts, eventually for the masses half price same stuff wins the day.

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4 hours ago, JMP said:

are the folks at your clubs spending $5K US on a boat (new or 2nd hand), just doing local club racing, or broader regional/state/national events?  The people at my clubs spending that sort of coin are the ILCA class members doing the official events.  Those doing just local club racing are typically spending less than $3K US when they "upgrade"

The leading Laser frostbite fleets in southern New England (like the one which sent out the email that started this discussion) are a little unusual in that many of the sailors are "stars" in other classes who sail those other classes in the summer and do Laser frostbiting in the winter. Some of these guys may well be interested in getting a great deal on a new Laser and you will never see them at ILCA regional and national championships.

But yes, I do foresee that some of these new LP boats will be showing up at ILCA district championships etc. next summer. It will be interesting to see how the local ILCA leadership respond. I have to confess that when I was the local ILCA District Secretary I spent a lot of energy into getting people to come to our district regatta, and zero energy into finding ways to ban people from sailing in that regatta. But then I don't have orange hair (or much hair at all these days.)

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http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/11/20/nautivela-approved-as-ilca-builder/?fbclid=IwAR3SwRwMQA8x9SgQMXm8_zmJAgMFiCDBc42sLa2zUzzaD_GFzNpnu_C7q4U

Nautivela Approved as ILCA Builder

The International Laser Class Association (ILCA) is pleased to announce that Nautivela srl has been approved as the most recent Builder of class-legal boats. With manufacturing based in Italy, the company has now successfully completed the detailed builder certification process and has received approval from both the ILCA and World Sailing technical departments to begin production.

 

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:



But yes, I do foresee that some of these new LP boats will be showing up at ILCA district championships etc. next summer. 

Will they be racing wearing their "personal buoyancy aid"?

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Hmm.... 4 interest groups.

ILCA sailors who value fair competition... their costs in the One design premium are sunk.... (they probably hate politics)

ILCA leadership.... who value   ??? the big picture of fair competition i guess.   their costs are sunk in their boat (One design premium) and any costs they have in organizing the show (they do politics to manage the big picture that they value)

The budget sailor who is showing up at a convenient local regatta with the fake/look a like boat who values a fun weekend.....   Their cost is the weekend regatta fee. (They don't give a fig about class politics)

The Host Yacht Club who values max attendance and their costs are sunk in the facility and the immediate costs in food and resources hosting the event.  If the event is a multiclass annual traditional regatta....   The club wants no part of the politics...  So they will write an NOR as the class wants but won't enforce anything including class membership or class legal boats.

I Don't think I am missing anybody....  and the the interesting question is... What happens now?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tcatman said:

Hmm.... 4 interest groups.

ILCA sailors who value fair competition... their costs in the One design premium are sunk.... (they probably hate politics) I agree with you

ILCA leadership.... who value   ??? the big picture of fair competition i guess.   their costs are sunk in their boat (One design premium) and any costs they have in organizing the show (they do politics to manage the big picture that they value) I believe ILCA's activities are, for a large part, driven (dictated?) by IOC and WS. If the Laser/ILCA was not an Olympic boat, their activities would be much different.

The budget sailor who is showing up at a convenient local regatta with the fake/look a like boat who values a fun weekend.....   Their cost is the weekend regatta fee. (They don't give a fig about class politics) From my experience, the number of budget sailors who buy new boats is very, very small in comparison to those who buy used boats.  If somebody shows up at our club wanting to get into Lasers, we will generally match him/her up with a member looking to sell a boat. Note US$5500 (or whatever) grows a lot to get it shipped and landed in this part of the world. Here, $US3000 will get you a quality used  boat with the latest rigging, two sails, a cover and a dolly. And they can sail in any regatta.

The Host Yacht Club who values max attendance and their costs are sunk in the facility and the immediate costs in food and resources hosting the event.  If the event is a multiclass annual traditional regatta....   The club wants no part of the politics...  So they will write an NOR as the class wants but won't enforce anything including class membership or class legal boats. 100%

I Don't think I am missing anybody....  and the the interesting question is... What happens now?  Wess will tell you. 

See above. 

 

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1 hour ago, Tcatman said:

Hmm.... 4 interest groups.

ILCA sailors who value fair competition... their costs in the One design premium are sunk.... (they probably hate politics)

ILCA leadership.... who value   ??? the big picture of fair competition i guess.   their costs are sunk in their boat (One design premium) and any costs they have in organizing the show (they do politics to manage the big picture that they value)

The budget sailor who is showing up at a convenient local regatta with the fake/look a like boat who values a fun weekend.....   Their cost is the weekend regatta fee. (They don't give a fig about class politics)

The Host Yacht Club who values max attendance and their costs are sunk in the facility and the immediate costs in food and resources hosting the event.  If the event is a multiclass annual traditional regatta....   The club wants no part of the politics...  So they will write an NOR as the class wants but won't enforce anything including class membership or class legal boats.

I Don't think I am missing anybody....  and the the interesting question is... What happens now?  

 I think this ends up the same way that replica sails did. For club sailing and most local regattas nobody will make a fuss about what sail or what hull you are using. I think this NOR wording sums up this approach...

96340167_ScreenShot2020-11-17at10_32_14PM.thumb.png.7a911e6b6e94eb0961292027a8c1855e.png


Regattas which have official ILCA measurers (like Laser Masters Worlds) will not allow LP hulls along with the usual bullshit like telling you to file down your battens because they are a millimeter too long.

Then there will be a grey area in the middle like district and regional championships which will probably depend on whether the local class leadership leans towards being sticklers for the rules, or towards encouraging wide participation.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

 I think this ends up the same way that replica sails did. For club sailing and most local regattas nobody will make a fuss about what sail or what hull you are using. I think this NOR wording sums up this approach...

96340167_ScreenShot2020-11-17at10_32_14PM.thumb.png.7a911e6b6e94eb0961292027a8c1855e.png


Regattas which have official ILCA measurers (like Laser Masters Worlds) will not allow LP hulls along with the usual bullshit like telling you to file down your battens because they are a millimeter too long.

Then there will be a grey area in the middle like district and regional championships which will probably depend on whether the local class leadership leans towards being sticklers for the rules, or towards encouraging wide participation.

Sailing is a self policing sport. 

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That is true Captain Obvious and equally true is that at the club level people have decided to defund the ILCA police state and accept generic sails and parts. Don’t you just love it when people can vote with their feet!! 

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29 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is true Captain Obvious and equally true is that at the club level people have decided to defund the ILCA police state and accept generic sails and parts. Don’t you just love it when people can vote with their feet!! 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZaelWv34KDICmO7SlFYA

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44 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is true Captain Obvious and equally true is that at the club level people have decided to defund the ILCA police state and accept generic sails and parts. Don’t you just love it when people can vote with their feet!! 

I remember years ago buying an intensity sail and centreboard. ILCA did not even enter my thoughts. I just bought them because they were cheaper. But the centreboard was shit. And my bet is most who buy the LP Lasers won’t be making a Wess-like anti -ILCA stand. They will just buy them because they are cheaper. 

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Sailing is a self policing sport. 

Exactly!  and the language Tillerman provided is essential to keep the integrity in the game.   The grey area events Tillerman speaks of would normally be handled by peer pressure... If a serious competitor continues to show up with non legal gear.... the fleet will deliver a message and things will sort out.     The issue always comes up because someone on high will issue  some mandate that district events MUST BE strictly class legal.... (and it will come down from on high)    YMMV on whether you nip the whole thing in the bud  this year before precedent is set or reprise the Hobie World experience where the Intl class eventually told the US class to fall in line after 5 or 6 years of allowing non hobies  to race in their points events.

IME..... you are better off setting expectations right away  rather then kicking the can down the road..... Half assed solutions usually bite you in the ass. 

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