Wess 3,036 Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 Hmmm... Tiller I think we might need a "round and round" music video... Dear Laser Sailors, Since our last Newsletter on the 9th November you might have noticed that our class website, www.TheLaserClass.com was suddenly and inexplicably taken down by our host provider. This action was in response to tenuous legal action taken against The Laser Class by ILCA, an unnecessary antagonism leveled against The Laser Class, for the second time within a few months. It has, however, not changed our resolve to continue to be your representative body – the class that represents all sailors sailing the original One-Design Laser. In response to this spurious behavior, the Executive Committee felt it is necessary to respond with this short statement to its membership. A more focused response from LaserPerformance to these actions by ILCA will no doubt be imminent. The Laser Class was set-up not to polarize the Laser sailing community, but to protect the interests of the original Laser sailor worldwide. The Laser Class has no interest in pursuing a confrontational course with ILCA. This same principal applies to the sports institutions and governing bodies. On the contrary, The Laser Class would welcome open and objective discussions on a fair and level playing field. In accordance with our own open and transparent policy as an association, The Laser Class Executive Council is, for example, refining both the class rules and the new constitutional documents, as discussed in the AGM, for the coming sailing season. Both documents will be updated on the website in due course. The Laser Class Executive Committee will continue to concentrate their time and energy in preparing some exciting new events for 2021, expanding our global representation, and ensuring that the Laser One-Design ethos is upheld. Stay with us for the journey and animate your fellow Laser sailors to join us! Best wishes and stay healthy! -The Laser Class Photo Courtesy of Miguel Andrade, Viana Sailing 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 379 Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Well at least it’s better written BS than the normal BS they put out BUT it’s still TOTAL BS . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, Wess said: Dear Laser Sailors, Since our last Newsletter on the 9th November you might have noticed that our class website, www.TheLaserClass.com was suddenly and inexplicably taken down by our host provider. This action was in response to tenuous legal action taken against The Laser Class by ILCA, an unnecessary antagonism leveled against The Laser Class, for the second time within a few months. It has, however, not changed our resolve to continue to be your representative body – the class that represents all sailors sailing the original One-Design Laser. In response to this spurious behavior, the Executive Committee felt it is necessary to respond with this short statement to its membership. A more focused response from LaserPerformance to these actions by ILCA will no doubt be imminent. The Laser Class was set-up not to polarize the Laser sailing community, but to protect the interests of the original Laser sailor worldwide. The Laser Class has no interest in pursuing a confrontational course with ILCA. This same principal applies to the sports institutions and governing bodies. On the contrary, The Laser Class would welcome open and objective discussions on a fair and level playing field. In accordance with our own open and transparent policy as an association, The Laser Class Executive Council is, for example, refining both the class rules and the new constitutional documents, as discussed in the AGM, for the coming sailing season. Both documents will be updated on the website in due course. The Laser Class Executive Committee will continue to concentrate their time and energy in preparing some exciting new events for 2021, expanding our global representation, and ensuring that the Laser One-Design ethos is upheld. Stay with us for the journey and animate your fellow Laser sailors to join us! Best wishes and stay healthy! -The Laser Class Photo Courtesy of Miguel Andrade, Viana Sailing Looking forward to seeing what events The Laser Class organizes in 2021. I still have my real, original, One-Design Laser in the garage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Clark 783 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 8 hours ago, Wess said: English please Dave. Are you saying the NA Laser market is more active (defined as # new boats sold) than the European market today or for the past few years? We ain't talking half a century ago when of course it was reversed and what you say was true (then but not now). Come on if it was such a great opportunity you could and would be building them (ILCAs) now. Okay, I'll explain the latin. Post hoc ergo propter hoc: Happened after X therefore must have been caused by X. It's a common logical error. You have this entire business case study 100% backwards. DRC 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 13, 2020 Author Share Posted November 13, 2020 I understand the Latin. It’s you I don’t. If you believed what you say then you would have decided to build ILCAs but instead you decided not to. Come on either there is this great NA market just abandoned by LPE or there isn’t. If there is as you seem to say there is nobody is better positioned - for all the reasons you mentioned earlier - to do it. So do it. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlatantEcho 250 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 I don't know why you guys all give Wess grief. He's contrarian here, but, he's not a jerk about it. He might say things some of you don't like - but, he's not wishing for doom and unmitigated failure on sailing. There is no way anyone in North America is going to build ILCA boats. Why, on god's green earth would any builder, with any brains, attempt that? There are ~4 builders, from countries where labor is cheap as chips, building boats already. There are ~3 others gunning for the top racing market. The minimum production you need to produce to break even - with all the ILCA fees, is 250-300 boats. NA hasn't had that many new boats sold in it, in years. I mean, what exactly is the incentive/business case? You invest in the tooling, spend years trying to build back the market, while cheap boats are everywhere AND the best boats are made in England? A rush of orders from people in NA who will only buy an NA built boat? - lol Does someone think an NA company will then export 200 high cost boats a year to other markets? - no way Ovington boats are being shipped by the container shortly to Canada, East Coast USA, West Coast USA. PSA has had their boats here for a while (although I imagine that will shrink and shrink now that better alternatives are available). There is zero reason anyone will start this in NA, unless they have good money they want to set on fire. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 46 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said: I don't know why you guys all give Wess grief. Because he is usually a dick. (Note I don’t see a need for a builder in NA with the new entries). 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Board skiff 620 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Bill5 said: Because he is usually a dick. (Note I don’t see a need for a builder in NA with the new entries). I notice you don’t claim he is wrong though Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Clark 783 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 9 hours ago, Wess said: I understand the Latin. It’s you I don’t. If you believed what you say then you would have decided to build ILCAs but instead you decided not to. Come on either there is this great NA market just abandoned by LPE or there isn’t. If there is as you seem to say there is nobody is better positioned - for all the reasons you mentioned earlier - to do it. So do it. Profoundly disinterested for the following reason which has nothing to do with market size or growth potential. The old licensing agreements used to grant essentially a monopoly to each continent's builder. Now they are gone and territories are a thing of the past. How a business is meant to compete with other businesses without being able to change the specifications and processes for the product is lost on me. Free markets are critical to maximizing customer satisfaction, however, the deadlocked nature of the laser product runs entirely counter to the notion of a free market and is really only conducive to monopoly or oligopoly conditions. DRC ps. Not really intent on getting in a fight with anyone here so much as jumping on a chance to scream at my pet peeve. "sales are down" has countless other explanations than simply "there is no market/no customers". It can't be said enough. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 5 hours ago, sosoomii said: I notice you don’t claim he is wrong though He often is. I don’t know enough about the boatbuilding business to weigh in on this particular topic. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 379 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 Just by the law of averages Wess has to be right once. I can only think it was before I joined this forum Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JimC 1,029 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Dave Clark said: How a business is meant to compete with other businesses without being able to change the specifications and processes for the product is lost on me. It considerably reduces the scope, but there are other vital factors in customer service, and there's a good case to suggest that its neglect of factors like quality of supply, delivery time, customer engagement and the like that have been significant factors in generating LPs poor reputation in the Americas. But it seems to me, from what I've casually read and seen, that specifications and processes are a particular strength of the business you've created, and going into an area of business where you can't take advantage of your company's particular strengths certainly doesn't sound like the very best plan. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 3,945 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 14 hours ago, Wess said: Come on either there is this great NA market just abandoned by LPE or there isn’t. * The market may still exist * The market could probably be developed * The market was robust twenty years ago. Lack of service of that market severely damaged the market * people are working to control redevelopment of the market * it is possible to believe the potential for great success exists while believing the current situation is inhibiting the possibility. *I do not see a sufficiently obvious path to success to inspire me to assemble or even join a team whose purpose is to make a living building boats and supplying North America 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Dave Clark said: Profoundly disinterested for the following reason which has nothing to do with market size or growth potential. The old licensing agreements used to grant essentially a monopoly to each continent's builder. Now they are gone and territories are a thing of the past. How a business is meant to compete with other businesses without being able to change the specifications and processes for the product is lost on me. Free markets are critical to maximizing customer satisfaction, however, the deadlocked nature of the laser product runs entirely counter to the notion of a free market and is really only conducive to monopoly or oligopoly conditions. DRC ps. Not really intent on getting in a fight with anyone here so much as jumping on a chance to scream at my pet peeve. "sales are down" has countless other explanations than simply "there is no market/no customers". It can't be said enough. Thanks for a clear and accurate explanation. Good news is sales of new boats are up now that they are available to order or are in stock. The Class has done a good job in these difficult times. They should be commended. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 59 minutes ago, VWAP said: Good news is sales of new boats are up now that they are available to order or are in stock. The Class has done a good job in these difficult times. They should be commended. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 * not available in North America 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 1 hour ago, tillerman said: What's your point? That is not the boat being discussed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 Since it was brought up? http://www.dinghyshop.com/product/LP10002.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Bill5 said: * not available in North America What is not available in North America? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 2 hours ago, tillerman said: What is not available in North America? Error. Delete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Bill5 said: Error. Delete Yea and now made in the USA 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wavedancer II 177 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 1 hour ago, VWAP said: Yea and now made in the USA By whom? I speculate that only the sticker was made in the USA... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 3 hours ago, Wavedancer II said: By whom? I speculate that only the sticker was made in the USA... It is an ad that has been distributed world wide, so LPE must be making those boats in the United States or at least in the Northern Mariana Islands Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 https://us10.campaign-archive.com/?u=800700d6e234e3a2f2b1f3c3c&id=039432a480 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlatantEcho 250 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 On 11/14/2020 at 3:50 AM, VWAP said: It is an ad that has been distributed world wide, so LPE must be making those boats in the United States or at least in the Northern Mariana Islands I think you know the answer to this, but, no LP produces no boats in the US. It is possible to petition the trade office to have your product certified as 'American Made' - if a certain percentage of the components / value add, is done here, in the US. So, you can have a Chinese built hull, shipped here, and once you add the spars (US built), sail (not US built...but whatever I guess), labor to package it. It is technically possibly to have a foreign built boat, with mostly foreign parts, called 'American' But, that's not happening here, it's just left over advertising and stickers, or... a subtle attempt to mislead. Aside from the Harken blocks, and aluminum spars... hmmmm, I don't really know anything else on a Laser that is made in the USA. Probably 5-10% of the value of the boat, tops? I'd put stupidity over deceptive malice here, though, personally. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OneGoat 48 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 3 hours ago, BlatantEcho said: I don't really know anything else on a Laser that is made in the USA. Probably 5-10% of the value of the boat, tops? If they could afix a WS plaque to the hull (in the USA), that would add a bunch more % of value to the boat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuso007 731 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 Who makes all the class legal fittings for the laser? (and rudders, daggerboards, spars, etc...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlatantEcho 250 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, chuso007 said: Who makes all the class legal fittings for the laser? (and rudders, daggerboards, spars, etc...) There are many approved sources for Laser and ILCA fittings, but in general, it's a global supplychain. The 'approvedbuilders' themselves, in general now, only build the hulls. Everything else is outsourced. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuso007 731 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 For me, the biggest difference in price is not the hulls, it's all the other stuff... You can get a nice old hull for a few bucks, but the difference in price between legal and illegal parts to upgrade is brutal, more than double. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 4 hours ago, chuso007 said: For me, the biggest difference in price is not the hulls, it's all the other stuff... https://www.laserperformance.us/collections/laser-5/products/laser-hull-only Laser Hull Only $3,192.80 Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 45 minutes ago, VWAP said: https://www.laserperformance.us/collections/laser-5/products/laser-hull-only Laser Hull Only $3,192.80 Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. How much is an ILCA Hull Only? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuso007 731 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 3.600 quid... https://www.sailboats.co.uk/class-legal-ilca-dinghy-hull-only 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 On 11/13/2020 at 4:42 AM, Dave Clark said: Profoundly disinterested for the following reason which has nothing to do with market size or growth potential. The old licensing agreements used to grant essentially a monopoly to each continent's builder. Now they are gone and territories are a thing of the past. How a business is meant to compete with other businesses without being able to change the specifications and processes for the product is lost on me. Free markets are critical to maximizing customer satisfaction, however, the deadlocked nature of the laser product runs entirely counter to the notion of a free market and is really only conducive to monopoly or oligopoly conditions. DRC ps. Not really intent on getting in a fight with anyone here so much as jumping on a chance to scream at my pet peeve. "sales are down" has countless other explanations than simply "there is no market/no customers". It can't be said enough. I hear you but didn't you know all that when you put in the initial application to be a builder? What changed and why did you folks pull out? Heck,Wish you were building. I and I am guessing many others would love to buy a Laser from a truly local builder like Fulcrum. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 On 11/15/2020 at 8:29 AM, tillerman said: How much is an ILCA Hull Only? Are you looking to buy? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 hour ago, VWAP said: Are you looking to buy? I am looking to buy my wife a new planter for her flower garden as a birthday present, but on second thoughts an ILCA hull - even with a World Sailing plaque - doesn't really have as much character as something like this. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 LOL I love love love this thread!! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, Wess said: LOL I love love love this thread!! Which thread? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 At least there is a market for those. Likely a similar age demographic group LOL. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Hudson 523 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 3 hours ago, tillerman said: I am looking to buy my wife a new planter for her flower garden as a birthday present, but on second thoughts an ILCA hull - even with a World Sailing plaque - doesn't really have as much character as something like this. FIFY 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 32 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said: FIFY That is a good one! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 11 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said: FIFY LOL. Good one Bruce. Well done! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 12 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said: FIFY Nicely played. Got a chuckle for sure. Have to "like" that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Is it an ILCA 2? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Well it appears to be over priced for what its doing so yes, I would guess its an ILCA! 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 18, 2020 Author Share Posted November 18, 2020 Hooked him again. So easy and so fun! 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 379 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 10 hours ago, Wess said: Hooked him again. So easy and so fun! As they always say , there is no delusion as good as self delusion Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 14 hours ago, Wess said: Hooked him again. So easy and so fun! Hooked who? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 3,945 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Links: Fleet Page | Weather | NOAA | Schedule Sailors, This is a follow up email to come down to the club to check on your boat, clean up, and properly tie down your Laser. All boats should be tied down through the dolly and over the boat to a concrete block on either side of the dolly tires. Additionally, your bow should be tied to both the dolly and, even better, to another block at the bow. Most of the boats that were off of dollies or trailers did not have the bow tied down. The Dinghy Shop (www.dinghyshop.com) has their repair shop open and loaner boats available while repairs are made. The following may also be of interest for those interested in new boats from the Boat Locker: A Note from Andrew Scrivan on UK Boats for Sale at the Boat Locker: There are a growing number of us that are interested in buying new boats that come without plaques. Scott at the Boat locker will be receiving a shipment of boats towards the end of this month. These are new 2020 LP UK “blue” boats. These are the same boats that they have built for years with tight mast rake tolerances and light weight at around 126 lbs, just without World Sailing stickers. If you primarily race at CP, AYC, Greenwich Laser Racing and other clubs/programs that allow them, it could be a great buy. The Boat Locker is offering the race package for $5,000 and the XD upgrade, with a carbon top and tiller, for $5,500.00 Please let me know if you are interested and I will add you to the list. Thanks- Andrew Scrivan. [email protected] Sincerely, Phil Hood Fleet Captain Copyright © 2020 Cedar Point YC, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because we want to race lasers with you at CPYC! We want you to be part of growing this fleet into the largest and best laser frostbite fleet in the world. Fleet Treasurer: Phil Myerson - [email protected] Cedar Point Yacht Club Address: 1 Bluff Point, Westport, CT 06880 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Hopefully more clubs will take advantage! I just can't see this price being sustainable. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spankoka 270 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 I'm waiting to see what a hull only deal from Shangdong will cost. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 18 hours ago, Gouvernail said: Links: Fleet Page | Weather | NOAA | Schedule Sailors, This is a follow up email to come down to the club to check on your boat, clean up, and properly tie down your Laser. All boats should be tied down through the dolly and over the boat to a concrete block on either side of the dolly tires. Additionally, your bow should be tied to both the dolly and, even better, to another block at the bow. Most of the boats that were off of dollies or trailers did not have the bow tied down. The Dinghy Shop (www.dinghyshop.com) has their repair shop open and loaner boats available while repairs are made. The following may also be of interest for those interested in new boats from the Boat Locker: A Note from Andrew Scrivan on UK Boats for Sale at the Boat Locker: There are a growing number of us that are interested in buying new boats that come without plaques. Scott at the Boat locker will be receiving a shipment of boats towards the end of this month. These are new 2020 LP UK “blue” boats. These are the same boats that they have built for years with tight mast rake tolerances and light weight at around 126 lbs, just without World Sailing stickers. If you primarily race at CP, AYC, Greenwich Laser Racing and other clubs/programs that allow them, it could be a great buy. The Boat Locker is offering the race package for $5,000 and the XD upgrade, with a carbon top and tiller, for $5,500.00 Please let me know if you are interested and I will add you to the list. Thanks- Andrew Scrivan. [email protected] Sincerely, Phil Hood Fleet Captain Copyright © 2020 Cedar Point YC, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because we want to race lasers with you at CPYC! We want you to be part of growing this fleet into the largest and best laser frostbite fleet in the world. Fleet Treasurer: Phil Myerson - [email protected] Cedar Point Yacht Club Address: 1 Bluff Point, Westport, CT 06880 Great to see this club doing the right thing. That is improved access and supporting grass roots sailing right there. Tip my cap to them... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Wess said: Great to see this club doing the right thing. That is improved access and supporting grass roots sailing right there. Tip my cap to them... And let's tip our hats to Scott Hardy at the Boat Locker, the dealer who has supported grass roots Laser sailing at Cedar Point YC for many years, and is continuing to do so with this deal. PS. Scott also does a great job of supporting RS Aero sailing in New England. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 I didn't and don't mean to slight Scott and/or Boat Locker but this seems to be driven by the good decisions made by the clubs to allow and include those boats. So I was tipping my cap to the clubs. Its basically a pathway to half priced boats that are essentially equal and I hope that in the same way the generic did this... it improves ease of access at the club and grass roots level. Going all the way back many years to the torch thread this is what I was and am endorsing. Great to see it in practice and I wish them much success. Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear is a great thing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, Wess said: I didn't and don't mean to slight Scott and/or Boat Locker but this seems to be driven by the good decisions made by the clubs to allow and include those boats. So I was tipping my cap to the clubs. Its basically a pathway to half priced boats that are essentially equal and I hope that in the same way the generic did this... it improves ease of access at the club and grass roots level. Going all the way back many years to the torch thread this is what I was and am endorsing. Great to see it in practice and I wish them much success. Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear is a great thing. "Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear" certainly is a great thing for sailors. We should tip our hats to LaserPerformance too! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 4 hours ago, tillerman said: "Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear" certainly is a great thing for sailors. We should tip our hats to LaserPerformance too! A basic ILCA boats is $10,000.00? And the LP boats they are selling are raced in the Olympics? no tipoffs the hat to LP for all the disruption they have done for all these years. PRODUCT DETAILS The world's most popular adult racing class. Every Laser in the world is identical. Strict one-design class rules ensures this remains true. The best sailor on the water wins the race, not the boat. The Laser is a challenging boat that rewards athleticism, subtle steering and trimming techniques as well as tactical excellence. The Laser is the single-handed Olympic class dinghy and is raced on the Club, National and International Class levels. The Laser comes standard as a Laser race version. http://www.dinghyshop.com/product/LP10004.html 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 4 hours ago, tillerman said: "Cutting costs in half for essentially equal gear" certainly is a great thing for sailors. We should tip our hats to LaserPerformance too! There is some bad math going on here. Plus Boat Locker needs to update the prices on their website - unless this is a special price for certain clubs.. It is a good deal for a club boat, for sure. But it ain't 50% less. And I wouldn't tip a toilet seat for LP. Bad eggs. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 45 minutes ago, Bill5 said: There is some bad math going on here. Plus Boat Locker needs to update the prices on their website - unless this is a special price for certain clubs.. It is a good deal for a club boat, for sure. But it ain't 50% less. And I wouldn't tip a toilet seat for LP. Bad eggs. Don't be so Canadian. It's a great deal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 3 hours ago, tillerman said: Don't be so Canadian. It's a great deal. Let’s see how many Wess buys. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlatantEcho 250 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 On 11/18/2020 at 9:23 PM, Bill5 said: Hopefully more clubs will take advantage! I just can't see this price being sustainable. Why not, exactly? You have a pissed off owner who has lost 90% of his market share/sales, but by all accounts, he's filthy rich. He's not done a lot of rational things in 10 years, and he's paid millions to lawyers to fight everything thrown his way. The boats don't cost $5000 to build. So, he can sell at low margins, to undercut ILCA, until the end of days. Just because he wants to. Which, if you go back, is what was predicted would happen, and now it's happening. He can do it as long as he wants, he's not playing on a level battlefield here. Heck, LP can do this just to irritate and ruin the ILCA market for years. And we're seeing a fractured class. The top 5% (active, vocal too) sailors go ILCA. The 95% who are club sailors and don't care... now they have a much cheaper alternative. And local classes are going to have an impossible situation where they tell their members 'uhm, you have to spend 50% more to race with us' Maybe a few local fleets will do that, but, most just want boats on the line - they aren't going to artificially restrict participation because the class is at war with itself. As ILCA moves to more carbon bits/expensive upgrades, it wouldn't even be surprising to see certain Laser fleets ban ILCA boats. (assuming LP continues to produce and sell at that price, which I assume they will, they have no reason not to) So, again, as long as 95% of sailors don't care who is sailing what. It will all work out at local level. But, as the boats are shown to be very different... lines will be drawn. The top sailors have to do ILCA because of World Sailing, Worlds, and they have the money to do it. The majority of sailors (the rest of us)... yeah, that's what LP is gunning for. They suck as a company, they are dismal in their execution of plans. But, if we've learned anything, they aren't going away - and now they are throwing grenades directly into the market. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 16 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said: They suck as a company, they are dismal in their execution of plans. But, if we've learned anything, they aren't going away - and now they are throwing grenades directly into the market. Check availability? Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery.? https://www.laserperformance.us/collections/laser-5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 16 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said: Why not, exactly? You have a pissed off owner who has lost 90% of his market share/sales, but by all accounts, he's filthy rich. He's not done a lot of rational things in 10 years, and he's paid millions to lawyers to fight everything thrown his way. The boats don't cost $5000 to build. So, he can sell at low margins, to undercut ILCA, until the end of days. Just because he wants to. Which, if you go back, is what was predicted would happen, and now it's happening. He can do it as long as he wants, he's not playing on a level battlefield here. Heck, LP can do this just to irritate and ruin the ILCA market for years. And we're seeing a fractured class. The top 5% (active, vocal too) sailors go ILCA. The 95% who are club sailors and don't care... now they have a much cheaper alternative. And local classes are going to have an impossible situation where they tell their members 'uhm, you have to spend 50% more to race with us' Maybe a few local fleets will do that, but, most just want boats on the line - they aren't going to artificially restrict participation because the class is at war with itself. As ILCA moves to more carbon bits/expensive upgrades, it wouldn't even be surprising to see certain Laser fleets ban ILCA boats. (assuming LP continues to produce and sell at that price, which I assume they will, they have no reason not to) So, again, as long as 95% of sailors don't care who is sailing what. It will all work out at local level. But, as the boats are shown to be very different... lines will be drawn. The top sailors have to do ILCA because of World Sailing, Worlds, and they have the money to do it. The majority of sailors (the rest of us)... yeah, that's what LP is gunning for. They suck as a company, they are dismal in their execution of plans. But, if we've learned anything, they aren't going away - and now they are throwing grenades directly into the market. Some valid points here. For me, LP was a loser at $7000+ boats - not sure how they will do any better at $5000. And I think Rasty likes money too much to simply throw it away. Vendetta or not. We shall see! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JMP 186 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 are the folks at your clubs spending $5K US on a boat (new or 2nd hand), just doing local club racing, or broader regional/state/national events? The people at my clubs spending that sort of coin are the ILCA class members doing the official events. Those doing just local club racing are typically spending less than $3K US when they "upgrade" 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 5 hours ago, BlatantEcho said: Why not, exactly? You have a pissed off owner who has lost 90% of his market share/sales, but by all accounts, he's filthy rich. He's not done a lot of rational things in 10 years, and he's paid millions to lawyers to fight everything thrown his way. The boats don't cost $5000 to build. So, he can sell at low margins, to undercut ILCA, until the end of days. Just because he wants to. Which, if you go back, is what was predicted would happen, and now it's happening. He can do it as long as he wants, he's not playing on a level battlefield here. Heck, LP can do this just to irritate and ruin the ILCA market for years. And we're seeing a fractured class. The top 5% (active, vocal too) sailors go ILCA. The 95% who are club sailors and don't care... now they have a much cheaper alternative. And local classes are going to have an impossible situation where they tell their members 'uhm, you have to spend 50% more to race with us' Maybe a few local fleets will do that, but, most just want boats on the line - they aren't going to artificially restrict participation because the class is at war with itself. As ILCA moves to more carbon bits/expensive upgrades, it wouldn't even be surprising to see certain Laser fleets ban ILCA boats. (assuming LP continues to produce and sell at that price, which I assume they will, they have no reason not to) So, again, as long as 95% of sailors don't care who is sailing what. It will all work out at local level. But, as the boats are shown to be very different... lines will be drawn. The top sailors have to do ILCA because of World Sailing, Worlds, and they have the money to do it. The majority of sailors (the rest of us)... yeah, that's what LP is gunning for. They suck as a company, they are dismal in their execution of plans. But, if we've learned anything, they aren't going away - and now they are throwing grenades directly into the market. Lemmings and lawnmowers canntt handle this much truth LOL. Just as Trump will eventually go away, so too will the orange haired plaque nazis of ILCA. No doubt the ILCAers will find some dark corner to continue their elitist pickpocket ways but just as with generic sails and generic parts, eventually for the masses half price same stuff wins the day. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 4 hours ago, JMP said: are the folks at your clubs spending $5K US on a boat (new or 2nd hand), just doing local club racing, or broader regional/state/national events? The people at my clubs spending that sort of coin are the ILCA class members doing the official events. Those doing just local club racing are typically spending less than $3K US when they "upgrade" The leading Laser frostbite fleets in southern New England (like the one which sent out the email that started this discussion) are a little unusual in that many of the sailors are "stars" in other classes who sail those other classes in the summer and do Laser frostbiting in the winter. Some of these guys may well be interested in getting a great deal on a new Laser and you will never see them at ILCA regional and national championships. But yes, I do foresee that some of these new LP boats will be showing up at ILCA district championships etc. next summer. It will be interesting to see how the local ILCA leadership respond. I have to confess that when I was the local ILCA District Secretary I spent a lot of energy into getting people to come to our district regatta, and zero energy into finding ways to ban people from sailing in that regatta. But then I don't have orange hair (or much hair at all these days.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/11/20/nautivela-approved-as-ilca-builder/?fbclid=IwAR3SwRwMQA8x9SgQMXm8_zmJAgMFiCDBc42sLa2zUzzaD_GFzNpnu_C7q4U Nautivela Approved as ILCA Builder NOVEMBER 20, 2020LASERCLASSFEATURE ITEM The International Laser Class Association (ILCA) is pleased to announce that Nautivela srl has been approved as the most recent Builder of class-legal boats. With manufacturing based in Italy, the company has now successfully completed the detailed builder certification process and has received approval from both the ILCA and World Sailing technical departments to begin production. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 2 hours ago, tillerman said: But yes, I do foresee that some of these new LP boats will be showing up at ILCA district championships etc. next summer. Will they be racing wearing their "personal buoyancy aid"? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tcatman 142 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Hmm.... 4 interest groups. ILCA sailors who value fair competition... their costs in the One design premium are sunk.... (they probably hate politics) ILCA leadership.... who value ??? the big picture of fair competition i guess. their costs are sunk in their boat (One design premium) and any costs they have in organizing the show (they do politics to manage the big picture that they value) The budget sailor who is showing up at a convenient local regatta with the fake/look a like boat who values a fun weekend..... Their cost is the weekend regatta fee. (They don't give a fig about class politics) The Host Yacht Club who values max attendance and their costs are sunk in the facility and the immediate costs in food and resources hosting the event. If the event is a multiclass annual traditional regatta.... The club wants no part of the politics... So they will write an NOR as the class wants but won't enforce anything including class membership or class legal boats. I Don't think I am missing anybody.... and the the interesting question is... What happens now? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Tcatman said: Hmm.... 4 interest groups. ILCA sailors who value fair competition... their costs in the One design premium are sunk.... (they probably hate politics) I agree with you ILCA leadership.... who value ??? the big picture of fair competition i guess. their costs are sunk in their boat (One design premium) and any costs they have in organizing the show (they do politics to manage the big picture that they value) I believe ILCA's activities are, for a large part, driven (dictated?) by IOC and WS. If the Laser/ILCA was not an Olympic boat, their activities would be much different. The budget sailor who is showing up at a convenient local regatta with the fake/look a like boat who values a fun weekend..... Their cost is the weekend regatta fee. (They don't give a fig about class politics) From my experience, the number of budget sailors who buy new boats is very, very small in comparison to those who buy used boats. If somebody shows up at our club wanting to get into Lasers, we will generally match him/her up with a member looking to sell a boat. Note US$5500 (or whatever) grows a lot to get it shipped and landed in this part of the world. Here, $US3000 will get you a quality used boat with the latest rigging, two sails, a cover and a dolly. And they can sail in any regatta. The Host Yacht Club who values max attendance and their costs are sunk in the facility and the immediate costs in food and resources hosting the event. If the event is a multiclass annual traditional regatta.... The club wants no part of the politics... So they will write an NOR as the class wants but won't enforce anything including class membership or class legal boats. 100% I Don't think I am missing anybody.... and the the interesting question is... What happens now? Wess will tell you. See above. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Tcatman said: Hmm.... 4 interest groups. ILCA sailors who value fair competition... their costs in the One design premium are sunk.... (they probably hate politics) ILCA leadership.... who value ??? the big picture of fair competition i guess. their costs are sunk in their boat (One design premium) and any costs they have in organizing the show (they do politics to manage the big picture that they value) The budget sailor who is showing up at a convenient local regatta with the fake/look a like boat who values a fun weekend..... Their cost is the weekend regatta fee. (They don't give a fig about class politics) The Host Yacht Club who values max attendance and their costs are sunk in the facility and the immediate costs in food and resources hosting the event. If the event is a multiclass annual traditional regatta.... The club wants no part of the politics... So they will write an NOR as the class wants but won't enforce anything including class membership or class legal boats. I Don't think I am missing anybody.... and the the interesting question is... What happens now? I think this ends up the same way that replica sails did. For club sailing and most local regattas nobody will make a fuss about what sail or what hull you are using. I think this NOR wording sums up this approach... Regattas which have official ILCA measurers (like Laser Masters Worlds) will not allow LP hulls along with the usual bullshit like telling you to file down your battens because they are a millimeter too long. Then there will be a grey area in the middle like district and regional championships which will probably depend on whether the local class leadership leans towards being sticklers for the rules, or towards encouraging wide participation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,099 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 2 hours ago, tillerman said: I think this ends up the same way that replica sails did. For club sailing and most local regattas nobody will make a fuss about what sail or what hull you are using. I think this NOR wording sums up this approach... Regattas which have official ILCA measurers (like Laser Masters Worlds) will not allow LP hulls along with the usual bullshit like telling you to file down your battens because they are a millimeter too long. Then there will be a grey area in the middle like district and regional championships which will probably depend on whether the local class leadership leans towards being sticklers for the rules, or towards encouraging wide participation. Sailing is a self policing sport. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 That is true Captain Obvious and equally true is that at the club level people have decided to defund the ILCA police state and accept generic sails and parts. Don’t you just love it when people can vote with their feet!! 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 2,289 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 29 minutes ago, Wess said: That is true Captain Obvious and equally true is that at the club level people have decided to defund the ILCA police state and accept generic sails and parts. Don’t you just love it when people can vote with their feet!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 44 minutes ago, Wess said: That is true Captain Obvious and equally true is that at the club level people have decided to defund the ILCA police state and accept generic sails and parts. Don’t you just love it when people can vote with their feet!! I remember years ago buying an intensity sail and centreboard. ILCA did not even enter my thoughts. I just bought them because they were cheaper. But the centreboard was shit. And my bet is most who buy the LP Lasers won’t be making a Wess-like anti -ILCA stand. They will just buy them because they are cheaper. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tcatman 142 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, VWAP said: Sailing is a self policing sport. Exactly! and the language Tillerman provided is essential to keep the integrity in the game. The grey area events Tillerman speaks of would normally be handled by peer pressure... If a serious competitor continues to show up with non legal gear.... the fleet will deliver a message and things will sort out. The issue always comes up because someone on high will issue some mandate that district events MUST BE strictly class legal.... (and it will come down from on high) YMMV on whether you nip the whole thing in the bud this year before precedent is set or reprise the Hobie World experience where the Intl class eventually told the US class to fall in line after 5 or 6 years of allowing non hobies to race in their points events. IME..... you are better off setting expectations right away rather then kicking the can down the road..... Half assed solutions usually bite you in the ass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 20, 2020 Author Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Bill5 said: I remember years ago buying an intensity sail and centreboard. ILCA did not even enter my thoughts. I just bought them because they were cheaper. But the centreboard was shit. And my bet is most who buy the LP Lasers won’t be making a Wess-like anti -ILCA stand. They will just buy them because they are cheaper. Duh. Thanks Captain Obvious. Never said it was an anti-ILCA stance. Like you I never have ILCA a moments thought when buying a generic sail. It was simply a way to have fun with great people for a much more affordable price. ILCA has nothing to do with any of those concepts so why would anyone think of them?? 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 2,111 Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Wess said: ...at the club level people have decided to defund the ILCA police state and accept generic sails and parts. Don’t you just love it when people can vote with their feet!! 58 minutes ago, Wess said: Duh. Thanks Captain Obvious. Never said it was an anti-ILCA stance. Like you I never have ILCA a moments thought when buying a generic sail. It was simply a way to have fun with great people for a much more affordable price. ILCA has nothing to do with any of those concepts so why would anyone think of them?? You're welcome, Captain Obno. Is your first comment above not in relation to your well-disguised contempt of ILCA? Perhaps I am reading it wrong. Edited November 21, 2020 by Bill5 Typo 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 3,036 Posted November 21, 2020 Author Share Posted November 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Bill5 said: I remember years ago buying an intensity sail and centreboard. ILCA did not even enter my thoughts. I just bought them because they were cheaper. But the centreboard was shit. And my bet is most who buy the LP Lasers won’t be making a Wess-like anti -ILCA stand. They will just buy them because they are cheaper. Duh. Thanks Captain Obvious. Never said it was an anti-ILCA stance. Like you I never have ILCA a moments thought when buying a generic sail. It was simply a way to have fun with great people for a much more affordable price. ILCA has nothing to do with any of those concepts so why would anyone think of them?? 1 1
Recommended Posts