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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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10 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I don’t know. I didn’t. But I didn’t care as it didn’t impact me directly - other than losing some light/women sailors from thee fleet. The latter ticked me off a little... But adopting a new full rig would impact me.

Sounds like the C5 rig is the one getting all the buzz. In 2018 the World Council approved a plan to introduce 100 C5 rigs into programs in Japan and Australia as a way to do large scale testing and to test demand. Did you ever hear how that went?

C5-at-AUS-Nationals-2019-2-840x560.jpg

 

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26 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Sounds like the C5 rig is the one getting all the buzz. In 2018 the World Council approved a plan to introduce 100 C5 rigs into programs in Japan and Australia as a way to do large scale testing and to test demand. Did you ever hear how that went?

C5-at-AUS-Nationals-2019-2-840x560.jpg

 

No - and I haven’t really paid much attention. Kids and small peoples boats don’t interest me to any degree. But all these little rigs look a little goofy to my eye on a 14 ft boat. As does a tiny 95 lb person hanging over the side.

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5 hours ago, VWAP said:

No just a few trolls and a lot of socks spewing ego driven nonsense, false rumors and revisionist history.

Stopped reading their dribble long ago.

Most involved want to sail, race and get others to do the same and have done a pretty good job considering what they have to deal with. 

But yet here you are reading and responding. You make this place fun and the fishing great. Thank you! 

4 hours ago, VWAP said:

 

« ILCA has no plan to replace the 4.7 rig. Anyone who says otherwise is either misinformed, or worse, is purposefully spreading misinformation. »

So stop spreading misinformation. Tracy did say the future of the class was not in white sails. Get over it. It’s a fact. 

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

So stop spreading misinformation. Tracy did say the future of the class was not in white sails. Get over it. It’s a fact. 

Do you think the future of the ILCA is in white sails? Is it possible that Tracy is wrong? There are some class leaders (and leaders of countries) that have been wrong about the future. 

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

No - and I haven’t really paid much attention. Kids and small peoples boats don’t interest me to any degree. But all these little rigs look a little goofy to my eye on a 14 ft boat. As does a tiny 95 lb person hanging over the side.

Don't be so Canadian.

Kids are the future of our sport.

And women are generally smaller people than men, and our sport can only be healthier if we encourage more women to sail with us.

As for small rigs looking goofy on a 14ft boat, goofiness (and beauty) are in the eye of the beholder.

https://fb.watch/1WCaQAtz4O/

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7 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Do you think the future of the ILCA is in white sails? Is it possible that Tracy is wrong? There are some class leaders (and leaders of countries) that have been wrong about the future. 

page 7

« ILCA has no plan to replace the 4.7 rig. Anyone who says otherwise is either misinformed, or worse, is purposefully spreading misinformation. »

http://www.lasersdownunder.com/wp-content/uploads/DearTracy-Usher-Leter-9-June-2019.pdf

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Did we get a vote when ILCA introduced the 4.7 and Radial rigs?

You didn’t get a vote because they were establishments of new classes, not a vote on any change to the standard rig class. 
Also a reminder that the key objective in the development and introduction of the MKII sail, composite top section and Radial bottom section were for longevity/reliability reasons, not performance. 

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15 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Don't be so Canadian.

Kids are the future of our sport.

And women are generally smaller people than men, and our sport can only be healthier if we encourage more women to sail with us.

As for small rigs looking goofy on a 14ft boat, goofiness (and beauty) are in the eye of the beholder.

https://fb.watch/1WCaQAtz4O/

I used to be quite interested in kids boats and kids sailing. But now that there are 150,000 parents taking charge, I am leaving it in their 300,000 capable hands.

 

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39 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Do you think the future of the ILCA is in white sails? Is it possible that Tracy is wrong? There are some class leaders (and leaders of countries) that have been wrong about the future. 

The whole white sail issue is a red herring. White sails can be classic, elegant, modern or racy (or some combination of the above) depending on the design. And Dacron has a lot going for it compared to alternatives. 

redherring.png?w=584
 

 

But those aluminum sticks on the Laser have to go. All of them. In this day and age, it's crazy to sail a boat where the spars bend and break so easily.

beyc1.jpg

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3 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

You didn’t get a vote because they were establishments of new classes, not a vote on any change to the standard rig class. 

If they are new classes why are they under the ILCA constitution and class rules?  This smacks of having cake and eating it. 

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4 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

You didn’t get a vote because they were establishments of new classes, not a vote on any change to the standard rig class. 
Also a reminder that the key objective in the development and introduction of the MKII sail, composite top section and Radial bottom section were for longevity/reliability reasons, not performance. 

Thanks Andy. That's what I thought. 

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33 minutes ago, VWAP said:

page 7

« ILCA has no plan to replace the 4.7 rig. Anyone who says otherwise is either misinformed, or worse, is purposefully spreading misinformation. »

http://www.lasersdownunder.com/wp-content/uploads/DearTracy-Usher-Leter-9-June-2019.pdf

There is that video...

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Do you think the future of the ILCA is in white sails? Is it possible that Tracy is wrong? There are some class leaders (and leaders of countries) that have been wrong about the future. 

Yes I think Tracy and ILCA is wrong. I agree with you.

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57 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Pathways?

Synergy?

Efficiency?

Probably all of the above.  But either they are separate classes and should have their own CA’s, or they are part of the Laser/ILCA/whatever class and there should have been a vote to let them join the party.

I do not see how anyone can argue with a straight face that the Radial and 4.7 are separate classes and therefore didn’t need a vote whilst simultaneously saying they are part of the International Laser Class Association.

Could ILCA act as an umbrella for the 18ft skiffs if the leadership of both decided that’s what they wanted, without putting it to a vote?

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15 hours ago, tillerman said:

Thanks Andy. That's what I thought. 

15 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

 

Apologies, Tiller, as I typed out my reply a little hastily. Obviously they were not establishments of "new classes", but rather were establishments of new rig alternatives to open up more widespread participation in the class. Voting was not done since they didn't directly affect the Standard rig. 

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9 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

Apologies, Tiller, as I typed out my reply a little hastily. Obviously they were not establishments of "new classes", but rather were establishments of new rig alternatives to open up more widespread participation in the class. Voting was not done since they didn't directly affect the Standard rig. 

What's in a word? I knew what you meant even though some of the anarchists in here seem to have latched on to your use of the word "class" to spin more anti-ILCA confusion.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

I do not see how anyone can argue with a straight face that the Radial and 4.7 are separate classes and therefore didn’t need a vote whilst simultaneously saying they are part of the International Laser Class Association.

Kidding... Right?

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Could ILCA act as an umbrella for the 18ft skiffs if the leadership of both decided that’s what they wanted, without putting it to a vote? 

What is the practical distance between an owners group and a class association?   A builder needs an owners group for their customers and looks at the subset of owners who want to play sailboat racing as a highly vocal minority who call themselves a class association organized to promote fair racing.   Hobie cat made lots of money introducing new racing boats as well as introducing new recreational boats that eventually became race boats (Waves) and the class association keeps from getting crushed and promoting racing while also being an owners group for the non racing boats..  IME, the balance between an owners group responsibilities and class association responsibilities always becomes a function of dollars.  The old saw of   XXX doesn't support the grass roots is really just a complaint about the owners group not doing a good job for non racers/casual racers.  I will say it again.... the guys who seemed to get the right balance are the Viper 640 guys.  

Back back back in the day.... did Laser organize beach parties for their non racing owners? .... it was a huge part of Hobie cats marketing..... they branded it the Hobie lifestyle and I am sure you remember great photos of hot chicks, fabulous beaches with killer sunsets or sunrises (with a Hobie 16 nearby).   Hobie Alter understood  this and often made the point that Hobie would never have been as successful had it followed the standard YC model with standard class associations and he followed  advice to avoid traditional sailing business models and ultimate became a case study for business schools..   I even remember the introduction of the other laser rigs as  .... Wow.... they finally figured it out and are copy catting Hobie in growing their market.     So.... could ILCA and the 18skiffs put something together under ABC builder... sure!    votes are just details.

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Not if they mean I have to throw my sail away to race, but if it's a, let's say, 9m2 sail for big guys that will sail in a different category, I wouldn't really care. 

 

Why should I vote for something that doesn't affect me or my racing (like when the 4.7 were introduced)?

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If they introduced a 9m sail, wouldn’t it reduce the fleet size of the standard rig? You might care about that. Similarly the Radial would have taken sailors from the standard fleet (as well as opening up the Laser to a whole new group).  

Not saying the Radial or a hypothetical 9m rig are wrong decisions, but it’s not the ILCA leaderships decision to take unilaterally. In a class association led class I would have thought it good governance to run these things past the membership.

In a manufacturer led class I would understand that you get whatever the manufacturer gives you, and you can take it or leave it. But  ILCA have made song and dance the last couple of years about how Laser is class led not manufacturer led.

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Doesn't the class association have some language about growing the sport?  Adding rigs as classes seems a natural outcome and you make that point about growth.   Not sure how the notion of good governance applies either.   Governing documents never include a list of things that you can't do.....   I guess you can argue that member's expectation is that the class association maintains a narrow focus.... but even then.... you get disputes about focus on the elite top end olympic level  crowd versus the support the grass roots crowd.   Was their a contested leadership election around the introduction of the radial rig?   That would seem to indicate the rank and file point of view and set a precedent?

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I believe that in reaction to concerns about splitting the class with new rigs, it was mentioned that there were similar concerns when the Radial and 4.7 rigs were introduced.  Undoubtedly those have helped grow the class, but I'm not sure they are the best comparison.

Neglecting the obviously flawed M rig, introducing the Radial and 4.7 brought mostly new sailors to the class who otherwise could not race a Laser competitively.  Any new rigs are only gong to cannibalize from the existing population of Standard, Radial and 4.7 sailors.

Now could they draw new sailors (or bring back old ones) who were unsatisfied with the old selection of rigs?  Yes it would bring them back to the class association, but in a different starting group.

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49 minutes ago, torrid said:

 

Now could they draw new sailors (or bring back old ones) who were unsatisfied with the old selection of rigs?  Yes it would bring them back to the class association, but in a different starting group.

https://www.sail-world.com/USA/Rooster-81-grows-up-First-championship/-38523

Rooster 8.1 grows up - First championship

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The people in the  Laser building business decided a lot of things before the ILCA was recently created.

The old Laser class had no control what so ever of who built our toys or how. 

There was no class vote on the introduction of the Laser 28, the Laser II, the Laser Rowing Shell or the Force Five, AERO, or the Class support of the Topper. 
 

If some builder decides to build and sell  new rigs for Lasers, that builder doesn’t have a reason in the world to ask anybody’s permission. 

end hijack

Back to your bickering !!! 
 

Has anybody tried unplugging the whole mess and plugging it back in?? 

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Yes, ILCA tried unplugging one builder and plugging in another. It took them over 500 days though so not sure that counts.  It also resulted in a fractured class, two class associations, more expensive boats in the ILCA class, nothing of benefit for anyone at the club level not striving to go the Olympics....

Oh wait it did get a bunch of old people some more money for nothing so if you are into that and on the gravy train it might be good. But it’s not my cup of tea.

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I prefer refrigerator tea, all you do is drop a bag in a quart jar and let it sit fit a few hours IN THE FRIDGE  

it doesn’t grow many of the molds typically found in sun tea. And it is less boring than water 

My preference is  Luzianne for  ice tea. 

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I missed commenting on the Nautivela builder appointment. ILCA now has 4 new builders with excellent reputations. They must all see a future for the boat and have figured out a way to make a buck. It will be interesting to see if the Italians who dominate the Laser Class membership switch sides (which we have seen before).

In related news, I hear the Laser Class is going to charge people $50 to not renew their free membership. They believe this will keep their membership numbers up as they continue to chase their dream of becoming a WS and Olympic class boat. 

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I prefer refrigerator tea, all you do is drop a bag in a quart jar and let it sit fit a few hours IN THE FRIDGE  

it doesn’t grow many of the molds typically found in sun tea. And it is less boring than water 

My preference is  Luzianne for  ice tea. 

 

50 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

 

In related news, I hear the Laser Class is going to charge people $50 to not renew their free membership. They believe this will keep their membership numbers up as they continue to chase their dream of becoming a WS and Olympic class boat. 


I want whatever tea @Bill5 is drinking.

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Tea is great for catching flies, Canadian fish, and Victor, Whisky, and Alpha flags and that makes me smile.  I am just not sure which i like baiting more...

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On 11/24/2020 at 6:01 AM, Bill5 said:

I missed commenting on the Nautivela builder appointment. ILCA now has 4 new builders with excellent reputations. They must all see a future for the boat and have figured out a way to make a buck. It will be interesting to see if the Italians who dominate the Laser Class membership switch sides (which we have seen before).

Refresh my memory. Who are the 4 new builders and which ones have a North American dealer network?

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8 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Don't know about the NA distributor, but if IIRC, the new builders are:

Ovington (UK)

Devoti (Ita)

Nautivela (Ita)

Riotecna (Arg)

you'd think for those builders, apart from Opti's, ILCA would be one of their highest volume of class boat sales right?  I'd guess there's a lot of fat in the sales for things outside of hulls for them also.

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15 minutes ago, JMP said:

you'd think for those builders, apart from Opti's, ILCA would be one of their highest volume of class boat sales right?  I'd guess there's a lot of fat in the sales for things outside of hulls for them also.

Which of those four is going to be the leading supplier of ILCAs in North America?  Or will PSA dominate that market?

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Which of those four is going to be the leading supplier of ILCAs in North America?  Or will PSA dominate that market?

The biggest dealers in North America have ordered Ovington, if that tells you anything.
 

PSA dumped a ton of boats into North America after Worlds in Canada. And they've been the grey market builder of choice for people who didn't want to buy from LP.
But, that monopoly is over, and containers of Ovington boats are heading to the east coast US, west coast US, Canada and I believe the southwest of the US has a dealer too now.

I don't know anyone who will pick PSA over Ovington after they look at both, even if the Ovington is more expensive.
There are a few dealers in the US who know their stuff who are behind PSA, but, they signed up before Ovington came online.

I think there is little doubt that Ovington builds a better boat than PSA, and as boats start landing in North America next month.... everyone will start to see that firsthand.

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7 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

The biggest dealers in North America have ordered Ovington, if that tells you anything.
 

PSA dumped a ton of boats into North America after Worlds in Canada. And they've been the grey market builder of choice for people who didn't want to buy from LP.
But, that monopoly is over, and containers of Ovington boats are heading to the east coast US, west coast US, Canada and I believe the southwest of the US has a dealer too now.

I don't know anyone who will pick PSA over Ovington after they look at both, even if the Ovington is more expensive.
There are a few dealers in the US who know their stuff who are behind PSA, but, they signed up before Ovington came online.

I think there is little doubt that Ovington builds a better boat than PSA, and as boats start landing in North America next month.... everyone will start to see that firsthand.

Thanks. I am sure you are right. I expect most sailors will go for the builder who builds the better boats. And if Ovington already has the biggest dealers signed up that's a big plus for them too.

I know a lot of people are still bemoaning not having an ILCA builder in North America, but i know from personal experience in another class that a first class UK builder working through a strong network of dealers in NA can work extremely well too.

 

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On 11/27/2020 at 4:36 PM, BlatantEcho said:

I don't know anyone who will pick PSA over Ovington after they look at both, even if the Ovington is more expensive.

If anybody can tell a difference between an Ovington and a PSA by looking, then something has gone very, very wrong with the class and you might as well pack up and forget the class.

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3 hours ago, SimonN said:

If anybody can tell a difference between an Ovington and a PSA by looking, then something has gone very, very wrong with the class and you might as well pack up and forget the class.

You've clearly never been involved in the class  :D
That's ALL Laser sailors do.
 

Yes, you can SEE physical differences.
Just flip the boats over, side by side. Seriously.

Physically, as soon as you put your hands on the gunwale of an Ovington vs PSA boat, you'll feel the difference too.

But really once you understand how both are built, and how the rules are written, and what flexibility they allow... as people learn all of that - yes, all the boats are different.
Is it massive?  We'll find out.

But, are they different.  Without question.
Will it make one faster than the others?  
Dunno. We will find out when racing gets rolling in 2021.


If you compare *how* the boats are built, internally, there are real differences.
If you know that, then you can know which one will likely last longer with an extended competitive life, resale value, etc.

 

Does the average weekend warrior notice this?  
We will see.
But, they sure as hell are going to talk about it.

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

If Ovington reached an agreement with Velum, could they brand their boats with the traditional Laser starburst logo?

Yes.

3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Or can ILCA somehow veto that happening?

In my view, no. The rules don't prohibit any logo.

 

---

 

Maybe in the near future, Velum might be up for sale.

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8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

You've clearly never been involved in the class  :D
That's ALL Laser sailors do.
 

No we don't. You don't speak on behalf of all Laser/ILCA sailors.

8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Yes, you can SEE physical differences.
Just flip the boats over, side by side. Seriously.

What are the differences? Sorry - I simply don't believe you. What's your evidence? 

8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Physically, as soon as you put your hands on the gunwale of an Ovington vs PSA boat, you'll feel the difference too.

How?

8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

But really once you understand how both are built, and how the rules are written, and what flexibility they allow... as people learn all of that - yes, all the boats are different.
Is it massive?  We'll find out.

The construction manual doesn't allow for differences, or "flexibility".

8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

But, are they different.  Without question.
Will it make one faster than the others?  
Dunno. We will find out when racing gets rolling in 2021.

We found out in 2020. There are no differences on the race track. The UK Nats showed this.

8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

If you compare *how* the boats are built, internally, there are real differences.

Um, what internal differences? I know of no evidence of any internal differences, and you are at risk of being accused of making stuff up.

8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

If you know that, then you can know which one will likely last longer with an extended competitive life, resale value, etc.

Maybe. LP boats appear to have a lower build quality. There were issues with them adhering to the construction manual. 

So far, the PSA and the Ovington boats seem pretty similar.

8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Does the average weekend warrior notice this?  
We will see.
But, they sure as hell are going to talk about it.

So far, the Ovington boats have shown no advantage over PSA or LP boats.

If the top sailors during the 2020 UK nats couldn't tell the difference, I doubt that 'weekend warriors' will.

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11 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:




 

 - yes, all the boats are different.
Is it massive? 

 

 

Depending on which day of the week they are built?

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3 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 

So far, the PSA and the Ovington boats seem pretty similar.

So far, the Ovington boats have shown no advantage over PSA or LP boats.

If the top sailors during the 2020 UK nats couldn't tell the difference, I doubt that 'weekend warriors' will.

How many Ovington ILCAs sailed in the 2020 UK Nationals?

I am aware that Sam Whaley had one. Who else?

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16 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

You've clearly never been involved in the class  :D
That's ALL Laser sailors do.
 

Yes, you can SEE physical differences.
Just flip the boats over, side by side. Seriously.

Physically, as soon as you put your hands on the gunwale of an Ovington vs PSA boat, you'll feel the difference too.

But really once you understand how both are built, and how the rules are written, and what flexibility they allow... as people learn all of that - yes, all the boats are different.
Is it massive?  We'll find out.

But, are they different.  Without question.
Will it make one faster than the others?  
Dunno. We will find out when racing gets rolling in 2021.


If you compare *how* the boats are built, internally, there are real differences.
If you know that, then you can know which one will likely last longer with an extended competitive life, resale value, etc.

 

Does the average weekend warrior notice this?  
We will see.
But, they sure as hell are going to talk about it.

I call bullshit. I have spoken to world class sailors and coaches, and they cannot see a difference, so how can you? Have you even seen the 2 boats side by side? I do understand how the boats are built (have you ever been in a Laser factory?). I also know about the work that has gone on to ensure the new builders are up to speed and that the boats not only comply with the construction manual, but have no advantage over other builders. I know the hoops the new builders have needed to go through with their prototypes to ensure uniformity. 

Besides all of that, I also know that the new builders have bought into the idea that they should all build equal boats, because they understand that if there really are differences, it will screw the future of the class. There are 2 things that enable such an old design to continue to thrive - numbers and uniformity. As soon as one builder has an advantage, the whole thing goes wrong.; Support for the class to remain not only in the Olympics but as the premier single handed dinghy that can be used for all categories (junior, female, open etc). Lose that one design confidence and there will be calls for another class to replace the ILCA/Laser.

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I think it's a bit naive to assume there are no technical differences in how ILCAs are built on 4 different continents, by 7 different builders.

If that was the case, why have customers for years clamored for boats from Australia, or Australian blades, or Australian top sections?
Why have sailors imported PSJ boats?
Why are the AUS mast connector pieces, mast step plugs different sizes and materials than the NA/European ones?
Why did we get almost two decades of discussion about Hyde vs. North sails?

Because there are differences.

I think the construction manual does an excellent job of ensuring a level playing field, and no huge variances exist.
But, there are differences. Real differences.

Do they matter?  That's been the question for my 15+ years.
I think the argument has been made convincingly that the best sailor, will win, in whatever boat they sail
I think with chartering, and how boats are provided at the Olympics and big events - that's just how it is.
The best sailor in a 20 year old Vanguard boat will beat me in a brand new PSJ boat any day of the week....
 

But, to say there are no differences at all, internal or external... yeah, that doesn't match my experience at all.
Does it matter? I've never been a good enough sailor to find out on the race course personally.

But I spent a lot of years hearing from Master Sailors who sailed in all the worlds... how much better one boat, one component, one aspect of a boat was... compared to the one they could buy at home.

Is some of it dock talk, gossip and whatever?  Absolutely.
But, my direct observation is that, they are not crazy at all.


--
I've visited the Ovington factory twice (including last month, to review their ILCA boats).
I've been to the PSA factory in Australia three separate times.
I've been to the Rio Techna factory in Argentina.
I've been to the Far East factory in China.
I'd been to the LP/Vanguard factory in Rhode Islands twice.

There are directly observable physical differences in the boats, without question.
Internal and external.
 

I've visited a number of dinghy manufacturers in a number of other countries - specifically to understand the production, QC and processes from manufacturers around the world. While I'm not an engineer, even for me, there were clear and obvious differences between all of them.

From the spray booth, to the foam, to the reinforcing blocks, to how the glass is laid, how long a boat cures, to the resin, to the QC/jigs.
To weighing, and how the teams were organized. Who was responsible for what. Even the PPE that people wore, and the management style, all impacts the final product. Is the style of the company 'kick out as many boats as possible' or is it 'quality first'. 

Those things add up, and they matter, and you can see it.


Again, the construction manual does a very good job, and it's something the class should be proud of.
But, the idea that there aren't noticeable physical differences in the boats, seems pretty silly to me, personally.

I mean, you can flip the boats over and see obvious ones, from the mast step print through, to the gunwale thickness, to the flushness of the auto bailer fit out.
Looking into the daggerboard case, and that flange, you can see who is paying attention, and who is not.

--
Internally - it's even more clear.

When you watch the boat built piece by piece, you can see *significant* attention to detail differences in difference builders.
Especially when it comes to the quality of jigs that are created by each manufacturer to put the boat together.
Specifically, how precise everyone is on mast rake.

I've seen things in factories that made me sick to my stomach.
I've seen Lasers built in ways where the wood reinforcing pieces inside the boat weren't covered in glass. (Ie, it was just exposed wood inside).
Mast step donuts put in carelessly.
Old jigs used to mate the hull and deck.
I've seen blades being cleaned up after coming out of the mold with an angle grinder.
I've seen super skilled craftsmen building boats, and I've seen brand new people with a few weeks training working on them too.
 

Again, I give kudos to the class for having a strong recipe for making boats.
But if you've ever cooked anything in your life: you can give the same recipe to two people, and that's zero guarantee the finished product will be the same.

 

--
I have no idea if one boat is faster than the other.  And we've never pushed that narrative anyway.
Frankly, we won't know that until 2021/2022 when we see a bunch of regattas, with top ranked sailors, sailing in anger.

But there is a reason people prefer one model to another - there are indeed real physical differences.
Especially when you go to the factories and see the approach each builder takes to produce boats.
 

I'd defer to a Steve Clark or Julian here on granular production details...
But, I think the best builders would just chuckle at the idea that all boats are built equal, no matter how specific the recipe is.

 

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14 hours ago, tillerman said:

How many Ovington ILCAs sailed in the 2020 UK Nationals?

I am aware that Sam Whaley had one. Who else?

There were two others.

Possibly others, as the measurer is meant to sign off on 10 boats. Also, Sam just did Kiel, and there about 7 Ovington boats.

Ovington's delivery truck before the UK Nats.

Ovington-ILCAs-on-truck-840x560.jpg

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3 hours ago, WestCoast said:

I think it's a bit naive to assume there are no technical differences in how ILCAs are built on 4 different continents, by 7 different builders.

Agree, there will be differences in boats, spars, and foils coming out of the same factory. They are all built with very tight tolerances.

Back in the day, there were wooden foils where one side was the correct profile, and the other was not - batches of hulls which were stiffer than others - mast rake differences - rubbish left inside a sealed hull - but I haven't seen those issues for years. And the class grew through those problematic years.

How that translates onto the racetrack is what counts.

We already know that boat speed differences are negligible, which is visible when racing - and translates into no detectable advantage - or if there is - it probably could be measured in inches. The way you wiggle the stick, trim, maneuver, use your body, and the course you choose to take, make for far far far bigger differences.

There is a possibility you get a dud that leaks - or your boat breaks - though over the years the standards have dramatically improved, making the very rare dud even rarer. My confidence has increased with PSA and Ovington, the new builders seem to be good, ILCA measuring seems to be rigorous in 2020.

Welcome to the post-Rastegar ILCA class.

Maybe he'll pull a rabbit out of a hat - but whether or not he does - the future of the class is secure.

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Tight tolerances??? That is absolutely hilarious!!!

I am sending this note from a $200 device whose entire size and weight is smaller than some of the “tight” tolerances to which you refer. 
The Laser is a relatively carefully built boat but, compared to most any modern product, there isn’t a single tight tolerance to be observed anywhere in the process. 
 

 

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Just FYI-

The International Laser Class Association was fundamentally involved  in race organization and management of the funds it collected from those who supported its existence. 
 

The ILCA is a group of people that manages worldwide construction of its ILCA boat and its parts. When the pandemic lets up the ILCA may also attempt to take over the race organization and management formerly performed by the defunct International Laser Class Association. 
 

As the ILCA has no constitution, by laws, or rules, no one really knows for certain what it is. 


 

 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

This is where you lose me, Gouv. The International Laser Class Association still exists. 

 

Remember... repeating myself for the upteenth time

I have wanted to free theInternational Laser Class Association from the constraints of the trademark since the very first time the control of the trademark fell into the hands of people whose commercial interests for the trademark became more important to the trademark holders than the racing toy and the game played in it. 
 

The International Laser Class Association did vote to remove the requirement builders of toys allowed in our games have a right to use the trademark.

NOTHING further has been proposed, voted upon, or approved. 

The International Laser Class Association has NEVER voted to allow non trademarked toys to participate in its events. 
 
The fact is, the International Laser Class Association has been abandoned. 

 There is an operational group calling itself ILCA but no one has ever done the basic paper work to legitimize it. 

*******
 I do NOT want the following to happen. I have repeatedly called for the renegades ( whose goals I share) to do the paperwork which would make the following impossible 

******
If the Laser Class  were to go to court and attempt to claim the assets of the International Laser Class Association, I can see no reason they would lose. 
 

 

 

 

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There is a Constitution and defined methods for amending it.

it hasn’t been done 

so

It hasn’t been done 

Which means 

It hasn’t been done 

so

it hasn’t 

***
I guess the new normal could be whatever anybody feels like  doing is fine  but there certainly is no way any ILCA rule can be enforced. 
 

If a person shows up at an ILCA regatta with an AERO, what written rules restrict that sailor from competing? 

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16 hours ago, WestCoast said:

Because there are differences.

Because people *perceive* differences that may or may not be there. I've been involved in managing a proper structured trial to look at boat speed differences in an SMOD, one of few people who have, and I plain do not believe that its possible to make the sort of distinctions people try and make from sailing alongside each other in races. TBH I have grave doubts about the sort of two boat trials the RYA Olympic people do. But a proper structured trial that gives real statistically reliable answers is a really big deal to organise and very rarely done. 

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I love this place!  Come on, of course there are differences (internally and externally) in how the various manufacturer's boat look and are built.  That is a FACT as multiple people have clearly stated.  Does it matter?  Well DUH, there is a reason why the best sailors go to their favorite builder and PSA (and I am sure LPE) would build/sell a boat to that sailor's desired specifications. Clearly the best sailors thought those differences mattered. And if you went to a very high level event like the Olympics all the boat were supplied byu the same manufacturer because even the class and organizer believed those differences mattered.  But those folks were the elite and it really didn't matter much at the grass roots level. The beauty of a regional SMOD was that at the club level there really was only one manufacturer you could buy from. If somebody showed up with a boat from another buolder you kinda knew he/she was out to try to buy an advantage (however real or not it was) but that was a very very rare event.  But now the leaders at ILCA sold out to PSA and WS, and the regional bedrock principle of a regional SMOD the class was built upon was thrown out for FRAND.  A Laser ain't a Laser anymore.  Now we have ILCAs that are way more expensive and not equal to one another.     

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

Now we have ILCAs that are way more expensive and not equal to one another.     

Were the old Lasers from PSA, PSJ, LP and Vanguard equal to one another?

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15 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Were the old Lasers from PSA, PSJ, LP and Vanguard equal to one another?

Clearly the behavior of both the class and elite sailors suggest no at a practical performance level.  And we also know for a fact there were differences in the build.  But in a regional SMOD it matters not because each builder was essentially segregated to its own territory.  ILCA leadership selling out to PSA and WS to trash SMOD and adopt FRAND did away with that control.

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How the boat is built is almost irelevant.

How the boat is treated, is far more fundemental.

On Saturday again I saw a string of 6 Lasars being towed at 10 + Knts behind a RIB.

If you want to f--k a Laser, that's the perfcet way to do it.     And nothing, LP, PSA, Ovigy, Nautrivela, Rio, etc, can do or you can do will defend or recover it from that damage.

Possibly the issue is (definitely the issue is) that people treat their boat completly differently even in the last 10 years, let alone the last 20.

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45 minutes ago, Wess said:

Clearly the behavior of both the class and elite sailors suggest no at a practical performance level.  And we also know for a fact there were differences in the build.  But in a regional SMOD it matters not because each builder was essentially segregated to its own territory.  ILCA leadership selling out to PSA and WS to trash SMOD and adopt FRAND did away with that control.

Oh! Regional SMOD! Segregated builders! New ones from you, Wess. Nice deflection. Is that what we had before? What was to keep one of your so-called "elite" from forking over the extra bucks to ship a boat from Australia to win? (Sidebar: many parents at the Kingston Youth Worlds thought the PSA was fastest.) When Vanguard was around, was anybody in the US importing "faster" LP boats? Anybody in the UK importing "faster" PSA boats? LP boats to Australia? 

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Nothing new about it Bill.  Simple fact (I know you don't like those nasty PITA fact things, but still there they are).  And nothing was to keep the elite or anyone looking for an advantage from doing exactly that (importing boat for personal use) and I said so in my earlier post.  In fact most elite did exactly that.  Geeze Canadian lawn mowers!  Don't you folks learn how to read up there?   So easy.  So fun.  Best fly and lawn mower fishing ever!

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Anybody here have actual knowledge of sailors who imported a boat into North America from Australia in the last  decade - up until the shit show? How many? Poms - any boats shipped from Down under? Most of the elites?

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2 hours ago, JulianB said:

How the boat is built is almost irelevant.

How the boat is treated, is far more fundemental.

On Saturday again I saw a string of 6 Lasars being towed at 10 + Knts behind a RIB.

If you want to f--k a Laser, that's the perfcet way to do it.     And nothing, LP, PSA, Ovigy, Nautrivela, Rio, etc, can do or you can do will defend or recover it from that damage.

Possibly the issue is (definitely the issue is) that people treat their boat completly differently even in the last 10 years, let alone the last 20.

OMG,OMG,OMG, knock it off with factual data. Thats not allowed here

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Anybody here have actual knowledge of sailors who imported a boat into North America from Australia in the last  decade - up until the shit show? How many? Poms - any boats shipped from Down under? Most of the elites?

From what I have seen it must be bazillions of them. 

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VWAP, as someone has asked, another bit of factual data.

My brother is a pretty well known Laser sailor, 12 or 16 Laser cubes I think, he simply buys a off the self PSA in Australia or a LP in Italy and sails that boat and preforms well above average.    But I have little doubt he treats it well, and is not towed behind RIBs at speed.    

The one thing he is adamant about is that he will never buy another alloy top or lower mast.    Even in Sydney, the risk of "un-provoked" breakage is more than he wishes to bear.

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There was a Tom Slingsby interview I watched earlier this year where he talked about how they train across the full range of variables in the boats, also mentioned that Blackers has a list of what works well for each variation in boat.  I specifically recall Tom talking about being given a boat at one of their training camps where he was getting flogged by the rest of the crew until he figured out what he had to change in his sailing style to make it fast

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7 hours ago, JulianB said:

 But I have little doubt he treats it well, and is not towed behind RIBs at speed.

You'll be telling us next that he doesn't leave his sails flogging with the leech unattached on the beach... 

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