spankoka 170 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 Of the three sailmakers, which one is preferred for light air? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 1,866 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 4 hours ago, RobbieB said: I agree, but maybe FRAND prohibits that kind of restriction? I believe the tightened inspection measures the class is taking will really narrow the amount of build differences between different manufacturers. Those who can/will be able to exploit any of those differences reside in the elite 1%, (or less) of the class. Case in point- I know one of the 2021 Olympic laser sailors. He says the 3 MKII sails, (North, Hyde, Pryde) all trim differently. These folks train using all 3 sails because they don't know which brand they'll end up with at the games. That stuff is way over my head and something I'll never have to worry about. Just like sailing my 20 yr old Vanguard boat against newer LP and now PSA boats. Haven't noticed a performance difference across any wind range yet so until I do I'm hanging onto the old girl. By the time I do notice a difference it's far more likely going to be due to ME getting older and not my boat..... I like the claims of faster, bigger, stronger! Would love to see some trash talking and boasting between builders! This drives competition and keeps the builders on their toes - complacency is eliminated and it ensures quality is a focus. I highly doubt one is going to be noticeably "faster". But it makes for good reading and blogging. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 1,866 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 55 minutes ago, spankoka said: Of the three sailmakers, which one is preferred for light air? I still like my old standard sail for the light stuff. No idea if I am faster or slower, but it suits my eye a lot better. Doesn't help me find shifts, though... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,062 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 1 hour ago, spankoka said: Of the three sailmakers, which one is preferred for light air? Thats easy, whatever brand Paige Railey is racing with that day 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spankoka 170 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 I am thinking her battens only go into the sail and not out, just saying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 We had a super duper secret ILCA-NA conference/Zoom call last night. It was super cool learning all the super duper secret stuff! 4 NEW approved builders with an additional 2 coming VERY soon. That like what... 6 Builders of ILCA's!?! How horrible. Oh, the agony!!! How will we survive! Deposits being taken now for new super duper secret boats delivered from new builders at sub-$8,000.00 pricing?!? No way! How can it be possible the pricing is soo close or even, even to what LP boats were just 1 year ago! It's a conspiracy I tell ya! ILCA also has 18 NA-District (secret) Secretaries working in ESTABLISHED (secret) districts with actual FLEETS of boats. How will ILCA survive!?! We discussed super duper secret plans for 2021! What?!? Plans?!? How can this be from the nearly defunct ILCA?!? I know, I know, it's probably all lies. It was never possible from such a mismanaged organization! Want to know more? Contact your District Secretary and they'll be happy to confirm the lies for you. But be careful cause you might even believe it! Wess- where's my rum....? 6 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aroy210677 277 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 18 minutes ago, RobbieB said: We had a super duper secret ILCA-NA conference/Zoom call last night. Rob, you were sworn to secrecy!! Oh well, the cat's out of the bag now. Oh, and small correction, there will soon be 8 builders (add in the existing PSJ and PSA). As I mentioned during last night's call, major kudos go out to ILCA's Technical Director, Clive Humphris, who with his team managed to guide the 6 new builders, all through Zoom calls and emails, through the process to approval during a very challenging year to say the least. 5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,062 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 42 minutes ago, RobbieB said: We had a super duper secret ILCA-NA conference/Zoom call last night. It was super cool learning all the super duper secret stuff! 4 NEW approved builders with an additional 2 coming VERY soon. That like what... 6 Builders of ILCA's!?! How horrible. Oh, the agony!!! How will we survive! Deposits being taken now for new super duper secret boats delivered from new builders at sub-$8,000.00 pricing?!? No way! How can it be possible the pricing is soo close or even, even to what LP boats were just 1 year ago! It's a conspiracy I tell ya! ILCA also has 18 NA-District (secret) Secretaries working in ESTABLISHED (secret) districts with actual FLEETS of boats. How will ILCA survive!?! We discussed super duper secret plans for 2021! What?!? Plans?!? How can this be from the nearly defunct ILCA?!? I know, I know, it's probably all lies. It was never possible from such a mismanaged organization! Want to know more? Contact your District Secretary and they'll be happy to confirm the lies for you. But be careful cause you might even believe it! Wess- where's my rum....? Did they decide on the super duper super secret handshake elbow bump? 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuso007 661 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Nice!! Now put 300$ sails out there in the market (I'm putting some extra there for the class fee) and reasonably priced spars and let's roll!!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Hudson 487 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, aroy210677 said: Oh, and small correction, there will soon be 8 builders (add in the existing PSJ and PSA). Robbie said four NEW builders! PSJ was set up in 1974, I'm less clear about the early history of PSA. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said: Robbie said four NEW builders! PSJ was set up in 1974, I'm less clear about the early history of PSA. Correct 4 new + 2 more OTW + 2 existing = 8, (I was trying to keep the super duper secret alive!). 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 13 minutes ago, VWAP said: Did they decide on the super duper super secret handshake elbow bump? I'm already in trouble with Andy. Going into the witness protection program now.... 4 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 13 minutes ago, chuso007 said: Nice!! Now put 300$ sails out there in the market (I'm putting some extra there for the class fee) and reasonably priced spars and let's roll!!! Spars were actually discussed. Damnit, there I go again.....No more! I promise....Well, sort of promise cause all of us ILCA'ers just lie anyway... 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Hudson 487 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 minute ago, RobbieB said: Well, sort of promise cause all of us ILCA'ers just lie anyway. You are lying about lying Robbie. No sympathy! Lock him up!! 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,062 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, RobbieB said: Spars were actually discussed. Damnit, there I go again.....No more! I promise....Well, sort of promise cause all of us ILCA'ers just lie anyway... Did they discuss where the super duper super secret vacay will be next year funded by all the super duper super secret fees? 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 31 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said: You are lying about lying Robbie. No sympathy! Lock him up!! I know. The endorphins from the 5:00 am workout and 3 cups of coffee has me nearly out of control! 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Hudson 487 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 minute ago, RobbieB said: has me nearly out of control Not sailing as often is the worst. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 hours ago, RobbieB said: We had a super duper secret ILCA-NA conference/Zoom call last night. It was super cool learning all the super duper secret stuff! 4 NEW approved builders with an additional 2 coming VERY soon. That like what... 6 Builders of ILCA's!?! How horrible. Oh, the agony!!! How will we survive! Deposits being taken now for new super duper secret boats delivered from new builders at sub-$8,000.00 pricing?!? No way! How can it be possible the pricing is soo close or even, even to what LP boats were just 1 year ago! It's a conspiracy I tell ya! ILCA also has 18 NA-District (secret) Secretaries working in ESTABLISHED (secret) districts with actual FLEETS of boats. How will ILCA survive!?! We discussed super duper secret plans for 2021! What?!? Plans?!? How can this be from the nearly defunct ILCA?!? I know, I know, it's probably all lies. It was never possible from such a mismanaged organization! Want to know more? Contact your District Secretary and they'll be happy to confirm the lies for you. But be careful cause you might even believe it! Wess- where's my rum....? So, based on what we already know, the 6 new builders of ILCAs that are already approved (or will be soon) are... Ovington, Devoti, Nautivela, Rio Tecna, Element 6 Evolution and Zou Inter Marine. Is that right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said: Not sailing as often is the worst. That doesn't help!!! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, tillerman said: So, based on what we already know, the 6 new builders of ILCAs that are already approved (or will be soon) are... Ovington, Devoti, Nautivela, Rio Tecna, Element 6 Evolution and Zou Inter Marine. Is that right? You're pretty warm there. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Hudson 487 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 9 minutes ago, tillerman said: So the 6 new builders of ILCAs that are already approved (or will be soon) are... Ovington, Devoti, Nautivela, Rio Tecna, Element 6 Evolution and Zou Inter Marine. Is that right? Don't anyone dare confirm or deny! Only the tightest tolerances to secrecy can be tolerated!! Particularly about who builds the fastest boats!!! 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Hudson 487 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Happy 1000th like Robbie! Congratulations. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
torrid 385 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 hours ago, RobbieB said: We had a super duper secret ILCA-NA conference/Zoom call last night. It was super cool learning all the super duper secret stuff! 4 NEW approved builders with an additional 2 coming VERY soon. That like what... 6 Builders of ILCA's!?! How horrible. Oh, the agony!!! How will we survive! Deposits being taken now for new super duper secret boats delivered from new builders at sub-$8,000.00 pricing?!? No way! How can it be possible the pricing is soo close or even, even to what LP boats were just 1 year ago! It's a conspiracy I tell ya! ILCA also has 18 NA-District (secret) Secretaries working in ESTABLISHED (secret) districts with actual FLEETS of boats. How will ILCA survive!?! We discussed super duper secret plans for 2021! What?!? Plans?!? How can this be from the nearly defunct ILCA?!? I know, I know, it's probably all lies. It was never possible from such a mismanaged organization! Want to know more? Contact your District Secretary and they'll be happy to confirm the lies for you. But be careful cause you might even believe it! Wess- where's my rum....? Sounds great. I hope this continues after the pandemic. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said: Robbie said four NEW builders! PSJ was set up in 1974, I'm less clear about the early history of PSA. There is a story about the origin of PSA buried in this long article about the Australian jounalist/author Rob Mundle. Suggests that PSA was set up in 1971, or soon after that. https://www.clubmarine.com.au/exploreboating/articles/28-4-The-write-stuff In 1971, with the call of the American yacht racing scene strong, Mundle told his editor that he wanted a year off. He left with a retainer to contribute sailing articles from abroad. “I arrived in Los Angeles and for my first night in town I slept aboard the maxi Kialoa – it was the only bed available,” Mundle says. From there he joined the Miami-Jamaica race aboard Ondine. As later detailed in his book Hell and High Seas, Mundle was pitched overboard on a black night, 20 miles off Cuba, and he just managed to cling on in the gale conditions. Once in New York, he found a sailing magazine called One Design& Offshore Yachts man, which carried a feature on little-known Canadian designer Bruce Kirby. “I rang Kirby, who was living in New York, introduced myself and he said: ‘I’ve just designed this little dinghy and we’re going to have a demo day – why don’t you come out?’,” Mundle recalls. “I hopped off a steam train at Long Island and here was this little boat, so simple it was beyond belief.” The 4.2m dinghy had been christened the Weekender. They later changed it, sensibly, to the Laser. “I jumped on what was Laser number 35 and blatted across the bay. As soon as I got back to the beach I said I wanted it for Australia. “I’d gone overseas partly because I realised that journalism made you insular in your lifestyle. You went to the pub, you lost contact with friends because of odd hours … Here was a chance to step away and look at a new business.” Mundle ordered two container loads of Lasers and returned to Sydney to establish Performance Sailcraft as a manufacturing base. “Brand awareness is everything in marketing, so I put the word out quickly and got the boat in front of people,” Mundle says. “The price was right ($695) and what stunned everyone was the performance compared to simplicity.” The Laser suited the no-nonsense Aussie way of sailing, requiring both tactical ability and physicality to succeed. Mundle also ramped up the social factor and built a great rapport around the class. “Too often in this industry boatbuilders think they’re marketers. It’s easier to be a promoter and find the boatbuilders. The big thing is getting the orders,” he says. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 3,047 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 12 hours ago, chuso007 said: Nice!! Now put 300$ sails out there in the market (I'm putting some extra there for the class fee) and reasonably priced spars and let's roll!!! +1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Hudson 487 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 11 hours ago, tillerman said: There is a story about the origin of PSA buried in this long article about the Australian jounalist/author Rob Mundle. Suggests that PSA was set up in 1971, or soon after that. https://www.clubmarine.com.au/exploreboating/articles/28-4-The-write-stuff In 1971, with the call of the American yacht racing scene strong, Mundle told his editor that he wanted a year off. He left with a retainer to contribute sailing articles from abroad. “I arrived in Los Angeles and for my first night in town I slept aboard the maxi Kialoa – it was the only bed available,” Mundle says. From there he joined the Miami-Jamaica race aboard Ondine. As later detailed in his book Hell and High Seas, Mundle was pitched overboard on a black night, 20 miles off Cuba, and he just managed to cling on in the gale conditions. Once in New York, he found a sailing magazine called One Design& Offshore Yachts man, which carried a feature on little-known Canadian designer Bruce Kirby. “I rang Kirby, who was living in New York, introduced myself and he said: ‘I’ve just designed this little dinghy and we’re going to have a demo day – why don’t you come out?’,” Mundle recalls. “I hopped off a steam train at Long Island and here was this little boat, so simple it was beyond belief.” The 4.2m dinghy had been christened the Weekender. They later changed it, sensibly, to the Laser. “I jumped on what was Laser number 35 and blatted across the bay. As soon as I got back to the beach I said I wanted it for Australia. “I’d gone overseas partly because I realised that journalism made you insular in your lifestyle. You went to the pub, you lost contact with friends because of odd hours … Here was a chance to step away and look at a new business.” Mundle ordered two container loads of Lasers and returned to Sydney to establish Performance Sailcraft as a manufacturing base. “Brand awareness is everything in marketing, so I put the word out quickly and got the boat in front of people,” Mundle says. “The price was right ($695) and what stunned everyone was the performance compared to simplicity.” The Laser suited the no-nonsense Aussie way of sailing, requiring both tactical ability and physicality to succeed. Mundle also ramped up the social factor and built a great rapport around the class. “Too often in this industry boatbuilders think they’re marketers. It’s easier to be a promoter and find the boatbuilders. The big thing is getting the orders,” he says. Great find, Tillerman! I always wondered about the early days in Oceania. Interestingly, New Zealand set up Performance Sailcraft in Auckland. It was worth doing back then because there was a luxury tax on imported boats (20%?) plus freight. I'm guessing was expensive too. So back then, deducing from the information you provided, there were two builders: one for Australia, which had a population of 15 million, and one for New Zealand, which then had a population of about 3.5 million. When I went to Performance Sailcraft on The Concourse in Henderson in 1983, they made both Lasers and Hobies in the same factory. Both ran for years, I know the Spencers were involved with Performance Sailcraft NZ, but I'm not sure about Australia - though clearly are now. By 1990, NZ had adopted free-market principles. Then NZ and Australia became a lot closer with a trade agreement - so one factory (PSA) served both NZ and Australia (today's combined market is 30 million). Also in the mix was an early 1970s article in the then-popular NZ sailing magazine Sea Spray. Pretty sure Murray Thom promoted it. His bother Barry Thom later got second in the 1976 World champs. Murray turned out to be quite good in the masters, and I think he won Standard Masters in 2005/6 sometime. (The above is written from the top of my head - and not fact-checked - corrections welcomed!) What is interesting is that small markets can support boutique builders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 9 hours ago, Gouvernail said: +1 I will say the $600 MKII does actually live up to the touted expanded life cycle over what the MKI offered. As such is worth the additional dollars in that regard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 19 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said: Happy 1000th like Robbie! Congratulations. I see someone hit me with a downvote. Oh well, I'm not here for the "likes" anyway. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 5 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said: Great find, Tillerman! I always wondered about the early days in Oceania. Interestingly, New Zealand set up Performance Sailcraft in Auckland. It was worth doing back then because there was a luxury tax on imported boats (20%?) plus freight. I'm guessing was expensive too. So back then, deducing from the information you provided, there were two builders: one for Australia, which had a population of 15 million, and one for New Zealand, which then had a population of about 3.5 million. When I went to Performance Sailcraft on The Concourse in Henderson in 1983, they made both Lasers and Hobies in the same factory. Both ran for years, I know the Spencers were involved with Performance Sailcraft NZ, but I'm not sure about Australia - though clearly are now. By 1990, NZ had adopted free-market principles. Then NZ and Australia became a lot closer with a trade agreement - so one factory (PSA) served both NZ and Australia (today's combined market is 30 million). Also in the mix was an early 1970s article in the then-popular NZ sailing magazine Sea Spray. Pretty sure Murray Thom promoted it. His bother Barry Thom later got second in the 1976 World champs. Murray turned out to be quite good in the masters, and I think he won Standard Masters in 2005/6 sometime. (The above is written from the top of my head - and not fact-checked - corrections welcomed!) What is interesting is that small markets can support boutique builders. Thanks for the info about the history of Laser building and supply in New Zealand, Bruce. I wasn't previously aware that Lasers were built there. As for your last point, I wonder which (if any) of the 6 new builders are intending to be "boutique builders" for their local markets, which ones will be primarily regional, and which ones will be truly global players. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
torrid 385 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 47 minutes ago, RobbieB said: I see someone hit me with a downvote. Oh well, I'm not here for the "likes" anyway. A gave you a sympathy one to make up for it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 48 minutes ago, torrid said: A gave you a sympathy one to make up for it. I gave Robbie a sympathy vote too. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 2 hours ago, tillerman said: I gave Robbie a sympathy vote too. Aww. You guys... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
koolkat505 66 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Be thankful Wess is on his odyssey trip, otherwise he would have commented "There is no sympathy for the devil" (sorry Mick and Keith) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuso007 661 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 4 hours ago, RobbieB said: I will say the $600 MKII does actually live up to the touted expanded life cycle over what the MKI offered. As such is worth the additional dollars in that regard. Does it last more than my 231€ MKII look-alike Rooster sail? I doubt it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, koolkat505 said: Be thankful Wess is on his odyssey trip, otherwise he would have commented "There is no sympathy for the devil" (sorry Mick and Keith) @Bill5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 58 minutes ago, chuso007 said: Does it last more than my 231€ MKII look-alike Rooster sail? I doubt it. Agreed, but I bet it trims differently. I used to use a $199 USD Infinity MK1, (before the MKII sail came out) to practice and sail in local club frostbiting. However, after switching back to my class sail for a class event I had to re-learn how to trim it so I haven't gone back to the knock off sails. Just use older class legal MKII for the lower level racing. Also agreed the class legal sail suppliers could charge less, but they don't and people still buy them.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuso007 661 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 38 minutes ago, RobbieB said: Agreed, but I bet it trims differently. I used to use a $199 USD Infinity MK1, (before the MKII sail came out) to practice and sail in local club frostbiting. However, after switching back to my class sail for a class event I had to re-learn how to trim it so I haven't gone back to the knock off sails. Just use older class legal MKII for the lower level racing. Also agreed the class legal sail suppliers could charge less, but they don't and people still buy them.... I also agree, but I bet Rooster can make sails with the same cut as the legal ones for 231€. Just give them the exact measurements and a licence to make them legal. Likethey did with the builders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
torrid 385 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 I thought they got some sort of "design patent" on the MkII sail. It's a lower level patent than the standard utility patent. The shape of a Coke bottle is a good example. Probably not that hard to get around. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 20 hours ago, koolkat505 said: Be thankful Wess is on his odyssey trip, otherwise he would have commented "There is no sympathy for the devil" (sorry Mick and Keith) Oh yeah. He'll get on me when he returns for sure! His retorts could be interesting though. Sort of like a Trump press conference. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 1,866 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 8 hours ago, RobbieB said: Oh yeah. He'll get on me when he returns for sure! His retorts could be interesting though. Sort of like a Trump press conference. We best enjoy it while we can - that odious wind from the Wess will be blowing again before you know it. He will definitely be looking for a recount in the number of builders. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VWAP 1,062 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 8 hours ago, RobbieB said: Oh yeah. He'll get on me when he returns for sure! His retorts could be interesting though. Sort of like a Trump press conference. he is gone? I hadn't noticed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MR.CLEAN 3,914 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Judging from a social media post a couple weeks ago, Wess might never be back. Something about “FREEDOM” and his rights I hope he’s not part of the new confederacy’s coming and short-lived rebellion 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuso007 661 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 On 12/17/2020 at 10:19 PM, torrid said: I thought they got some sort of "design patent" on the MkII sail. It's a lower level patent than the standard utility patent. The shape of a Coke bottle is a good example. Probably not that hard to get around. Wasn't that about that "system" to avoid creases on the luff where the two mast sections meet? My Rooster sail doesn't have it 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 1,866 Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 @aroy210677 posted this on one of the other LaserILCA pages. For those that missed it, it’s great. Nice to have a real sailor building the boat. Quality. https://fb.watch/2rQbC3r7cE/ 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Hudson 487 Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 5 hours ago, Bill5 said: @aroy210677 posted this on one of the other LaserILCA pages. For those that missed it, it’s great. Nice to have a real sailor building the boat. Quality. https://fb.watch/2rQbC3r7cE/ Notes from above from Ovington's Chris Turner: Chris has significant experience as a Laser/ILCA sailor. Ovington builds one ILCA per day Built first 10 between in April and the end of July (The first 10 weren't sold - 5 are in Chris Turner's local club as training boats) Since then has built 110 (the interview was 17 Dec) There are some options in the construction manual. "Minute details". "Reasonably small tolerances and easy to get wrong" Had help from PSJ (Takao Otani) Expects to get orders outside of UK, just shipped to West Coast Sailing in the US. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 8 hours ago, Bill5 said: @aroy210677 posted this on one of the other LaserILCA pages. For those that missed it, it’s great. Nice to have a real sailor building the boat. Quality. https://fb.watch/2rQbC3r7cE/ I didn't know much about Ovington before watching this video. If I were in the market for an ILCA the video would make me feel much more confident about buying from Ovington. Kudos to them for finding this way to get the message out about Chris, the company and their approach to building ILCAs. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 16 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said: Judging from a social media post a couple weeks ago, Wess might never be back. Something about “FREEDOM” and his rights I hope he’s not part of the new confederacy’s coming and short-lived rebellion Wess? Who is he? Never heard of him. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,730 Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 Happy Holidays you nutters. I am back early after being unexpectedly diverted to Boston to pick up a kid (always a good thing). I see you have been busy. Much to catch up on! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,730 Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 And it appears the Laser Class has been active. That is a good thing! Borrowing this from a Tiller post as I haven't made it to or through my emails yet. Dear Laser Sailors, 2020 will certainly go down, in many respects, as a turbulent year. To put it into sailing terms, we have had gale force winds, capsizes and broken masts…however, for those that thought it wouldn't happen, The Laser Class is thriving and still growing from month to month. Sweden now joins countries like Spain and Portugal in welcoming The Laser Class to join all of its sailing events – “Tack Sverige!” We were delighted to welcome our 1000th member in November with an early Christmas present and recognize that you, the Laser sailors, have been so instrumental in getting The Laser Class to where it is now. A huge “Thank you” goes out to all of you for your suggestions and support. No doubt, there is still work to be done, however we are excited about the events we have planned for next year and hope that we can soon change tack and return to calmer waters. Happy Christmas and a Happy New Year! Stay healthy and we look forward to seeing you on the water soon, -The Laser Class Photo Courtesy of Marianne Lenos World Sailing Application Some of you might have followed the progress of the Class application to become a World Sailing member. We have had frank discussions with WS regarding our One-Design Laser application, however the politics of the sport have meant that we will be refining and re-submitting our application for approval next year. Watch this space! Photo Courtesy of Erik de Vrijer The One-Design Laser 50th Anniversary Celebrations 2021 sees the 50th Anniversary of this iconic boat. The “TGIF” (thank god its Fridays) and “Weekender” of the 1970s has gone from strength to strength and yet it still remains true to its original One-Design spirit. The Laser Class will be celebrating these 50 years, with a festival of sailing in Portugal in July 2021. The festival will include races and family sailing activities – a real “Laser-fest” in every sense. Details about this event and the rest of the events calendar will be posted on our website www.TheLaserClass.com in the New Year. “Say Happy Birthday to Laser….!” - as part of the build up to this event, we invite you to submit your old photos and experiences describing your first Laser. A series of stories and anecdotes will be posted monthly throughout the year. So if you still sail a yellow (we all started somewhere), green, blue or red Laser dinghy, then you will also have the chance to join us for a vintage “Heritage Laser” dinghy event in Portugal. You can send us your comments, photos and of course your boat numbers to info@TheLaserClass.com Planned Class Events in 2021 Our outline plan for our main events starts from June in Italy. We move to Cascais in Portugal for our flagship event, the "Laser Festival" and 50thanniversary from 2-4 July, that will include the Laser Heritage celebrations. From 7th-12th August we are in Sneek, Holland, 13th-15th August in Travemünde in Germany and on 8th-10th October we move to Roses in Spain. Confirmation of the locations, NORs and updates will be continually posted our events page and sent to you via this monthly newsletter. Any questions, or if you would like to assist the Class in organizing, can be directed to our events group: events@TheLaserClass.com. and finally, a very happy sailor.. Dutch sailor Jan de Groot (left) is a very happy sailor. He has taken delivery of his new Laser Performance dinghy from the friendly Anton de Lange at the Sail Center (www.sailcenter.com) in Holland. In his words there was only one option - "to enjoy the original Laser with his local Laser sailors - and of course to buy a Laser at a sailor friendly price" Congratulations Jan and happy sailing! The Laser Class 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 On 12/19/2020 at 9:06 AM, tillerman said: Wess? Who is he? Never heard of him. Welcome back @Wess whoever you are. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,730 Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 I am a blessed and lucky guy Tiller. Amazing trip and may have a chance to pick back up and continue it until real life intervenes again in early January. Really makes me think hard about deferring retirement. So much fun to be had... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 10 minutes ago, Wess said: I am a blessed and lucky guy Tiller. Amazing trip and may have a chance to pick back up and continue it until real life intervenes again in early January. Really makes me think hard about deferring retirement. So much fun to be had... Carpe diem. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
torrid 385 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 6:06 PM, chuso007 said: Wasn't that about that "system" to avoid creases on the luff where the two mast sections meet? My Rooster sail doesn't have it Forgot about that. it was a real patent. However, that only protects the extra piece of cloth added to the luff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 3,047 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 22 hours ago, torrid said: Forgot about that. it was a real patent. However, that only protects the extra piece of cloth added to the luff. No way that patent holds up to a challenge. People have been adding cloth to go around lumps for as long as people have been building cloth things. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Gouvernail as always you spoil the good things you post by posting this utter tosh . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 3,047 Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 22 hours ago, Xeon said: Gouvernail as always you spoil the good things you post by posting this utter tosh . Really? The patent is claimed for sewing sails in a manner such that the mast joint does not create stretch marks. I find it difficult to believe the solution used making Sails is unique to the latest Laser sail 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 Happy Christmas , Gouvernail . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 3,047 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 7 hours ago, Xeon said: Happy Christmas , Gouvernail . I have been out sailing the AERO all day!!! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 50 minutes ago, Gouvernail said: I have been out sailing the AERO all day!!! Lucky you . Our Boxing Day race is on Sunday this year. I have entered and am really looking forward to it . I really need to make the most of it as with the new variation of COVID spreading out from London . A new lock down , with no sailing , is getting closer and closer to my area of the country. I will be sailing a British moth , which is similar to your classic moth but with a bigger high aspect rig and sail .The pic is my wife in her relatively new one earlier in the year at the only open meeting our class managed to complete. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 1,866 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 51 minutes ago, Xeon said: Lucky you . Our Boxing Day race is on Sunday this year. I have entered and am really looking forward to it . I really need to make the most of it as with the new variation of COVID spreading out from London . A new lock down , with no sailing , is getting closer and closer to my area of the country. I will be sailing a British moth , which is similar to your classic moth but with a bigger high aspect rig and sail .The pic is my wife in her relatively new one earlier in the year at the only open meeting our class managed to complete. Good looking sail 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 3,047 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Bill5 said: Good looking sail Patented?? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 9 hours ago, Bill5 said: Good looking sail I will pass that on to the wife Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 6 hours ago, Gouvernail said: Patented?? Lol no. But to bring it back to lasers .Any sail maker can make sails for the class as long as they measure . This has not driven down the price . Sail size is 8 square metres and the average price for one is over 800 pounds . I will leave you to do the conversion to dollars. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Martin T 83 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 13 hours ago, Xeon said: Lucky you . Our Boxing Day race is on Sunday this year. I have entered and am really looking forward to it . I really need to make the most of it as with the new variation of COVID spreading out from London . A new lock down , with no sailing , is getting closer and closer to my area of the country. I will be sailing a British moth , which is similar to your classic moth but with a bigger high aspect rig and sail .The pic is my wife in her relatively new one earlier in the year at the only open meeting our class managed to complete. Lucky you, we were going to have a race on the 2nd January but we're in Tier4 now! I used to sail one of them, got it from Broxbourne SC back in the early 90's. Lovely little boat for exploring the Salting but it didn't like the Blackwater chop. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 It’s definitely not a boat for sailing on the sea but it’s just perfect for sailing on a small lake . It’s possible to sea sail but it’s a little wet and the short hull just slaps the water/waves.lol We are in tier 3 at the moment.Our next review day is the 30th, I am expecting Coventry and Warwickshire to go into tier 4 then . If we are very lucky we might stay in tier 3 until the next review which is on the 19 of Jan , but I am not holding my breath. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,730 Posted December 29, 2020 Author Share Posted December 29, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 7:39 AM, RobbieB said: Oh yeah. He'll get on me when he returns for sure! His retorts could be interesting though. Sort of like a Trump press conference. LOL well judging from below it should be clear neither me or my state voted for him. You and your state however... Oh and yera the Mk I and Mk II sails trim completely differently nevermind the generics. At least the generic sails I owned were pretty true to the version of the sail they were copying in terms of trim... just lasted longer On 12/18/2020 at 4:30 PM, MR.CLEAN said: Judging from a social media post a couple weeks ago, Wess might never be back. Something about “FREEDOM” and his rights I hope he’s not part of the new confederacy’s coming and short-lived rebellion I don't know if I should be honored or scared by the semi stalkerish tendencies above. OK and back on track... do we have an ILCA NA builder yet? Coming up on 2 years now. PS - Sorry you got no breeze @Gouvernail. Has been and looks to continue to be nice for sailing here the rest of the week. Tri the last two days; Laser and UFO and next few. Good way to send out the year. Glad you had some Aero fun. Happy New Year. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 Err you didn’t have a USA builder before before this sh@t show with LPE started . You have sided with LPE and ‘ the laser class’ neither of whom have any real intention of having a USA builder . There is only one reason neither side in this mess have a USA builder . No one in your country thinks they can make and sell the boat and make a profit . This is nothing the class can do anything about about or has any need to as loads of other builders in other parts of the world are more than happy to fill the tiny gap in the world wide market . WESS . Anyway glad rumours of your demise from the forum are incorrect, I would really miss your ramblings and baseless allegations and accusations. They always make me laugh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,730 Posted December 29, 2020 Author Share Posted December 29, 2020 Hey at least I don't own a pink boat LOL. And it was ILCA that said there would be a NA builder of ILCAs. Oh and if that was demise then give me more. We were away (alot) and had a fantastic time. Our other love - besides sailing - is back packing and mountaineering and we were lucky to do a lot of this interspersed with some great historic hotel stays and fantastic dining. Fun times. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 But it was your USA builder that pulled out , that’s not the ILCA fault. None of the European builders on the short list pulled out at the last minute. Re pink boat , it’s not mine yet lol Wife is thinking of a new boat so it might be mine by the end of 2021 PS Glad you had a great time . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 1,866 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 If my memory serves me correctly (about a 50% proposition) the Zim US guys were chatting it up in Florida to @RobbieB and others. By the sounds of things, Zim decided to manufacture in China. So it was they who head faked, not ILCA. But is rare that Wess does not take a shot at ILCA at any opportunity possible. It’s just the way he is. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Bill5 said: If my memory serves me correctly (about a 50% proposition) the Zim US guys were chatting it up in Florida to @RobbieB and others. By the sounds of things, Zim decided to manufacture in China. So it was they who head faked, not ILCA. But is rare that Wess does not take a shot at ILCA at any opportunity possible. It’s just the way he is. It was in SC, but you are correct. As soon as I heard they "backed out" I knew the China angle was on. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,730 Posted December 29, 2020 Author Share Posted December 29, 2020 The China angle was always on. Come on man... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill5 1,866 Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 45 minutes ago, Wess said: The China angle was always on. Come on man... Agreed. Seems upon second thought they decided the plant in China could take care of the universe. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobbieB 1,410 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 13 hours ago, Wess said: The China angle was always on. Come on man... Even though it is speculation I'll agree this is a very strong possibility. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillerman 1,443 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 20 hours ago, Wess said: The China angle was always on. Come on man... Any guess what the price in the USA for ILCAs built by Qingdao Zou Inter Marine will be? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xeon 147 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 I would guess , just slightly less than boats built by Ovington/PSA etc BUT with a much larger profit margin built in 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,730 Posted December 31, 2020 Author Share Posted December 31, 2020 7 hours ago, tillerman said: Any guess what the price in the USA for ILCAs built by Qingdao Zou Inter Marine will be? No clue but whatever it will be, it will be a cheap POS compared the other manufacturers of Lasers or ILCAs IMHO. This is the sad reality of what ILCA has created. In the past any manufacturer was equal to another. Not anymore and I suspect that will be even moreso in the future as we see cheap Chinese manufacturers coming on line. ILCA is OD no more. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gouvernail 3,047 Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 I see no reason the builders of the device upon which I am writing this post would find it difficult to mass produce excellent sailing toys. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JulianB 521 Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 What a load of crap! The sad reality is that in countries such as yours and mine there is no appetite for risk, WRT the manufacture of boats that are SMOD’s (even if in this case they are 5-6SMOD). I have first-hand experience, (and some reading this will know that first-hand) at the maths and the viability of setting up manufacture in Sth Carolina or Florida of ILCA’s and it simply did not stack up. It was not for lack of trying; it was more for lack of getting someone with specific skill-set to live in the US and commit 5 years to the project all the while you and others bleat about price. That person chose to live elsewhere. I am also aware of the “hell” that Turner (Ovington) and Portiglia (Nautivela) have gone through. I am also aware of what Element 6 and ZOU are enduring. It’s anything but easy and it’s anything but a gravy train! This problem is not unique to ILCA’s or 9ers, and you are in-fact lucky to have the Steve/Dave Clarks (& Melges) of this world who do it more for the love of it. (and yes I did field a phone call from Steve very early in the piece about exactly this!) WRT ILCA, they and by they, Tracy, Takao, Andy, & Clive plus countless others inc Eric, from where I am sitting and with what I know have acted with the absolute best interests of the ILCA members at heart and given that Tracy is doing this for the love of it, and Takao has taken huge hits to his life and his business to get it back on track, a) all of, but Tracy and Takao more-so are completely mad, but b) you owe then a huge debt of gratitude. WRT the 7 builders they have selected, interesting all (with the exception of Devoti) are in the “9er” club, so PSJ, Rio Tech, Zou, ZIM, Element 6, Ovington and Nautivela, all are exceptional boat-builders, all follow the rules, all do the right thing. I have been in every one of these boat-builders’ factories, (plus PSA, LP/Vanguard and PSUK (under Coventry/Graham) and I am very sure that ILCA where very careful with their selection and have got it right as they possibly could. As you have signalled out ZOU in Qingdao, I have been in that factory 3 times in the last 2 years. George Zou and Penny Ma are 2 of the most above-board boat builders I know, and George comes from a very long line a highly accomplished Chinese shipwright’s. It’s extraordinarily rare, to walk into another man’s factory, anywhere in the world, let alone China, and meet someone with the skill set and expertise of George. It was a breath of fresh air. It’s even rarer that when confronted with baseless (by definition) accusations that Penny (a highly accomplished businesswoman in her own right) & George, take the higher ground. What really takes me back is that if these baseless accusations had been rained on any number of other builders in many parts of the world the accuser would be miles deep in counterfeit crap right now. Penny and George have held the far higher ground Those accusers, including you, are very much the worse for your accusations. You (and they) look really stupid to those that actually know! I have very firsthand experience, ZOU has acted and are continuing to act, impeccably. Steve Perry (ZIM Connecticut) has a long and extremely fruit-full working relationship with them (along with a large number of other non-Chinese “builders”) plus a vast number of your C420's that your youth happily sail daily. So unless you have some tangible evidence to the contrary, I would suggest you pull your head in! As a Caucasian it’s embarrassing! jB 11 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,730 Posted December 31, 2020 Author Share Posted December 31, 2020 Whaaa. If you wish to support that country and those that partner with them and the crap they build; go ahead. No, I would not buy an ILCA built in China. You might have noticed that much of the free world has some issues w China's behavior on the international stage. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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