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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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I am good for at least 2 more years with the excellent used boat I bought a couple years ago. If I were to buy a new boat it would in all likelihood be whatever the local dealer is selling. Don’t care where it is manufactured. 

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

You might be in for a surprise. 

ZIM are agents for boats built by Ovington, so I very much doubt they will be aggressively chasing the European/UK markets. ZIM's pricing is likely to be similar, the cost of freight will make a difference!

The North American market still remains without a builder. It will be interesting to see which ILCA manufacturer is cheapest in North America. It might end up that RioTecna has the best pricing! It seems the first indication is that all of the manufacturers are making a similar quality boat.

The Ovington and PSA seem close in price at about $8,000. I doubt the ZIM will be much different. I see Marine Outfitters in Kingston is advertising the ZIM ILCA Carbon (prematurely?) for CAD 10,300 which is equivalent to about USD 8,000. 

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14 hours ago, spankoka said:

Because I know that the Ovington Laser will cost me much more than a Laser from Shangdong. Here we get into the misguided policies of one Mr. BoJo.  I get it that "built by sailors for sailors" is excellent marketing, but it would be magical thinking that it actually makes a material difference in performance. No one gives a rat's ass if the guy who casted their clubheads plays golf himself, or if the guy who made their skis is a ski bum. For all we know now, as per FRAND the Chinese Lasers could be the supplied boat for Paris 2024.

FYI, we're sending a container of Ovington boats directly to Vancouver from the UK.
That means they come in duty free, among other benefits.

The pricing for all boats, so far, is effectively identical.
These will just be cleared and landed in Vancouver in the cheapest and most efficient method available.

 

So, if you're looking to save money, as someone else pointed out - logistical savings (or buying an event boat) will yield the biggest savings.
I forget how many containers we are sending to B.C. this year, it's two or three in 2021.

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37 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

FYI, we're sending a container of Ovington boats directly to Vancouver from the UK.
That means they come in duty free, among other benefits.

 


What is the duty on an ILCA imported into the USA.from Britain?  

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On 1/5/2021 at 7:27 AM, tillerman said:

What is the duty on an ILCA imported into the USA.from Britain?  

I believe all UK boats to Canada are Duty Free now.

 

As of 2019 they started phasing it out. I believe all the RS containers sent to Canada in 2020, had zero duty applied.
(they have had quite the sales bonanza on all over Canada helped by this)

It used to be 9.5% or something crazy.

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On book of faces from The Laser Class... a tweaked logo.  I would have added "and no Chinese crap."

"Yet" LOL!

 
50 Years of the original One-Design Laser - its been quite a story. To celebrate we have tweaked our Logo somewhat....join us for the festivities and some great sailing in the summer!

138639448_230108275220414_6464106161788935588_n.png

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On 1/8/2021 at 8:17 AM, WestCoast said:

I believe all UK boats to Canada are Duty Free now.

 

As of 2019 they started phasing it out. I believe all the RS containers sent to Canada in 2020, had zero duty applied.
(they have had quite the sales bonanza on all over Canada helped by this)

It used to be 9.5% or something crazy.

Not sure about that. The Fed website still shows 9.5% for “personal watercraft”. Plus 5% GST. And Provincial tax in most provinces on top of that.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Not sure about that. The Fed website still shows 9.5% for “personal watercraft”. Plus 5% GST. And Provincial tax in most provinces on top of that.

How much of a kickback do the leaders of the ILCA get for all those fees the gov collects  so they can fund their super dudes super secret vacays?

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Not sure about that. The Fed website still shows 9.5% for “personal watercraft”. Plus 5% GST. And Provincial tax in most provinces on top of that.

The CBSA does seem to sometimes just make it up as they go along, such as with the folding knife ban. 

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

How much of a kickback do the leaders of the ILCA get for all those fees the gov collects  so they can fund their super dudes super secret vacays?

 

46 minutes ago, spankoka said:

The CBSA does seem to sometimes just make it up as they go along, such as with the folding knife ban. 

I bought a Laser in the US a few years ago and was surprised how much I had to pay at the border. And since the Trailex trailer is classified as a "vehicle" I got a double surprise. And the border crossing dude looked suspiciously like Andy Roy...

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

 

I bought a Laser in the US a few years ago and was surprised how much I had to pay at the border. And since the Trailex trailer is classified as a "vehicle" I got a double surprise. And the border crossing dude looked suspiciously like Andy Roy...

My cover’s been blown. Thanks Bill  

So I’ve been on the WC since 2013. Here’s a list of “kickbacks” and perks received:

-  travel and living expenses to attend the annual WCM, held either at a Heathrow or Dallas airport hotel (quite exotic)

- reimbursement for vacation time from my employment to attend the Thursday and Friday sessions of the annual WCM: zero

- reimbursement for time on copious calls, emails, Zoom meetings, document writing and reviews: none

- an ILCA T-shirt, collared golf shirt or similar: zero

- any other perk: none

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13 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Not sure about that. The Fed website still shows 9.5% for “personal watercraft”. Plus 5% GST. And Provincial tax in most provinces on top of that.

Hey Bill. Rumor has it you are headed down to US.  You bringing the rum you owe me?  :P

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6 hours ago, Looper said:

Almost certainly won't turtle...

And it ain't a white sail so Andy and Tracy should be happy.  Lord knows the price....

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16 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

My cover’s been blown. Thanks Bill  

So I’ve been on the WC since 2013. Here’s a list of “kickbacks” and perks received:

-  travel and living expenses to attend the annual WCM, held either at a Heathrow or Dallas airport hotel (quite exotic)

- reimbursement for vacation time from my employment to attend the Thursday and Friday sessions of the annual WCM: zero

- reimbursement for time on copious calls, emails, Zoom meetings, document writing and reviews: none

- an ILCA T-shirt, collared golf shirt or similar: zero

- any other perk: none

- taking unwarranted shit and abuse from annoying trolls: none

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I think what they took was about three quarter of a million bucks LOL.

PS - I got 2 Torch T-shirts! And the belts!!

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On 1/15/2021 at 10:50 AM, Gouvernail said:

That sucks. Back when the Game had a well funded enthusiastic North American builder sharing promotion efforts with the NA Class we gave all our officers pens and paid airfare as necessary to be certain a Class officer was present at every major championship. 
 Sometimes we even got t shirts 

My guess is fewer Laser sailors are passing The triple super secret  toll booth as and nobody9basivc is collecting 200-400 membership fees at CORK. . 

In D12 we've made our own branded bumper stickers, (give our free), travel banner, (I bought) and have had a t-shirt sale, (basically as cost).  We were about to do pennies, (I had about 30 orders) and then we got into the "what are we?  ILCA or Laser? quandary so that's been put on the back burner.  

People love Class swag and are happy to pay for it...Hint, hint.....

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On 1/14/2021 at 8:30 PM, Wess said:

On book of faces from The Laser Class... a tweaked logo.  I would have added "and no Chinese crap."

"Yet" LOL!

 
 
50 Years of the original One-Design Laser - its been quite a story. To celebrate we have tweaked our Logo somewhat....join us for the festivities and some great sailing in the summer!

138639448_230108275220414_6464106161788935588_n.png

Except it's not anymore.  That OD class designation stopped a little over a year ago as they can no longer build from the class designated build manual.  Impressive originality on the "logo" design though..... 

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Of course it is. Now if you want to play plaque nazi and argue over a piece of paper sticker I can go find a high quality  copy machine and get you one LOL. 
 

After all it is the original Laser. It’s the ILCA that has strayed from its original roots. 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Of course it is. Now if you want to play plaque nazi and argue over a piece of paper sticker I can go find a high quality  copy machine and get you one LOL. 
 

After all it is the original Laser. It’s the ILCA that has strayed from its original roots. 

Careful, it is felony counterfeiting in some places.  Those plaques are same as currency or a stock medallion. They’ll add that to Wess’s indictment along with taking that picture with Viking hat guy in Nancy Pelosi’s office. 

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Sail Prices

LPE were criticised for the high price of sails but recently they were selling class compliant sails for £246 with a made in China label. Why are the ILCA sails so expensive, are the new distributors or ILCA receiving a huge mark up?

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22 minutes ago, Andy B said:

Sail Prices

LPE were criticised for the high price of sails but recently they were selling class compliant sails for £246 with a made in China label. Why are the ILCA sails so expensive, are the new distributors or ILCA receiving a huge mark up?

As they are no longer an ILCA class builder nothing they provide is ILCA class compliant.  Sails or otherwise.

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And an ILCA is not compliant in The Laser Class but it really doesn't matter either way as clubs allow either to race with the other at the grass roots level.

 

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40 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The International Laser Class Constitution says the sail insignia SHALL be the international laser symbol. 

 

As the Constitution has not been properly amended, to allow a different insignia, how can the sails with ILCA be allowed in sanctioned International Laser Class Association competition?? 
 

 

INSIGNIA
2. The emblem of the Class shall be the recognised Laser symbol, and the insignia of the officers shall be those prescribed by By-Law.

Nothing mentioned about sail markings. And there is nothing in the rules, either. 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

The emblem of the class which goes in a defined place on the  sail is the starburst not four stupid letters 

there has ABSOLUTELY NOT been a vote to change the constitution or rules such that sailors my race with whatever markings they please 

There actually isn't anything in the constitution or rules about an emblem or insignia on the sail. Just the numbers, country code and red rhombus for women. The only thing I can find that is applicable is you have to buy sails from a licensed manufacturer. My guess is they don't put the starburst on the sail because it would be in violation of the patent. 

I'm just reading what's in there and duly reporting. 

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11 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

There actually isn't anything in the constitution or rules about an emblem or insignia on the sail. Just the numbers, country code and red rhombus for women. The only thing I can find that is applicable is you have to buy sails from a licensed manufacturer. My guess is they don't put the starburst on the sail because it would be in violation of the patent. 

I'm just reading what's in there and duly reporting. 

There is no patent on the red starburst sail insignia.

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

It’s been awhile since I’ve checked into this thread. Is Wess still a whiny little turd that won’t buy a boat anyway?

I love this place!  And ILCA leadership  still sucks. And... yes I bought a boat. 
 

#JoinTheLaserClass

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

There is no patent on the red starburst sail insignia.

Then I have no idea.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Then I have no idea.

Sailing the Laser tomorrow and will think of that line and smile for sure.

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

Sailing the Laser tomorrow and will think of that line and smile for sure.

You’re welcome. Stay away from state capitals tomorrow.

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4 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

You’re welcome. Stay away from state capitals tomorrow.

LOL should name the new boat “Insurrection!

Forecast says 20-30 on tap for tomorrow so sure would be a fast sail there. 
 

 

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30 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL should name the new boat “Insurrection!

Forecast says 20-30 on tap for tomorrow so sure would be a fast sail there. 
 

 

Is it the Ovington? Or...

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12 hours ago, Wess said:

I love this place!  And ILCA leadership  still sucks. And... yes I bought a boat. 
 

#JoinTheLaserClass

Did you buy one you can sail in events other than grass roots and some small club events?  Or did you roll the dice and hook your cart up to nasty Rasty?, (In my opinion).

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I am not answering any boat questions LOL other than to say my view and goals are clear.  I don't buy Chinese crap if it can be avoided and I don't want to help fund a broken organization like ILCA that undermines the grass roots sailors and abandons the core principles the class and Laser was built on.

Right about now Tiller is wondering if I bought an Aero...

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

I don't buy Chinese crap

Wess would be a very unusual person if he doesn't buy something made in China.

Ironically, it is highly likely that the device he writes on is made in China (and isn't "crap") - which means added to his intolerance is hypocrisy.

18 minutes ago, Wess said:

I don't want to help fund a broken organization like ILCA that undermines the grass roots sailors and abandons the core principles the class and Laser was built on.

Then no matter how twisted and factually incorrect the reasons not to support ILCA, simply don't. There are some freedoms in the US which means that Wess has that choice.

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50 minutes ago, Wess said:

I am not answering any boat questions LOL other than to say my view and goals are clear.  I don't buy Chinese crap if it can be avoided and I don't want to help fund a broken organization like ILCA that undermines the grass roots sailors and abandons the core principles the class and Laser was built on.

 

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Calm down and don’t have a stroke Bill. It’s not like anything is going to change or opinions are going to shift.  It’s a fun diversion with occasional new developments and interesting insights. And music. It’s SA for gosh sake. Take a chill pill and go sailing.

Oh that’s right; you can’t. Sorry; not sorry. But Spring will show up any day now!  :D

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Calm down and don’t have a stroke Bill. It’s not like anything is going to change or opinions are going to shift.  It’s a fun diversion with occasional new developments and interesting insights. And music. It’s SA for gosh sake. Take a chill pill and go sailing.

Oh that’s right; you can’t. Sorry; not sorry. But Spring will show up any day now!  :D

I guess the tone didn't come across. I suppose I could have added an eye roll :rolleyes:

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15 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I guess the tone didn't come across. I suppose I could have added an eye roll :rolleyes:

And music @Bill5.  You gotta add some music LOL. 

 

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

I am not answering any boat questions LOL other than to say my view and goals are clear.  I don't buy Chinese crap if it can be avoided and I don't want to help fund a broken organization like ILCA that undermines the grass roots sailors and abandons the core principles the class and Laser was built on.

Right about now Tiller is wondering if I bought an Aero...

 

 

Well then hopefully you covered your ass and bought a good condition used boat that currently goes "both ways".

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Returning to my original question; if LPE are not now responsible for the high price of class legal sails who is, and, are they pocketing the huge profit margin we were previously told on the forums was being taken by LPE?

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23 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Pics or it didn't happen.

fat-man-boat.jpg

I could have used that tonnage while sailing today.  Even with the radial.  And while I ain't posting pics of it, you can come see it here....

me.jpg

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7 hours ago, Andy B said:

Returning to my original question; if LPE are not now responsible for the high price of class legal sails who is, and, are they pocketing the huge profit margin we were previously told on the forums was being taken by LPE?

Even though the Laser/ILCA is one of the most successful boats ever, the number of sales, dominated by the sales in Europe, is relatively low. We're only talking about a few million dollars turnover, split by several parties.

Bottom line is that boat manufacturer's "huge profits" are relative and in the scheme of things, in my view, quite small.

One of the issues is that a sail goes from sailmaker to boat manufacturer, to retailer/s - and all three (or in some cases four) add a margin. The question of whether sails 'should' be sold directly from sailmakers is controversial and I imagine would be voted against by the boat manufacturers at ILCA World Council level.

What isn't so accurate are perceptions gained from the forums, including this one. :) 

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No idea what the current price of a laser sail is .

But the price of the sails for my last three UK boats are, 

1) Lightning 368 ( SMOD ) sail price = £520 

2) Supernova ( SMOD ) sail price = £899 

3) British moth ( open class any sail maker ) sail price. £ 700 to £850 .

The sail area of all these classes are very similar to a laser/ ILCA .

 

Just checked the uk price of a ILCA sail = £540 

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I never understood why a "Class Compliant sail" (£410) is £130 cheaper than a "Class Legal sail" (£540) here in the UK. The only difference is one has a red button!

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ILCA gets button fees of USD28 for the standard sail and USD13 for the radial. (Preemptive post)

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42 minutes ago, Martin T said:

I never understood why a "Class Compliant sail" (£410) is £130 cheaper than a "Class Legal sail" (£540) here in the UK. The only difference is one has a red button!

Because if you want to sail in ILCA regattas you have to have a class legal sail, so it has more value, so they price it higher. 

For guys who sail a lot of ILCA regattas and travel all over the country to sail ICLA regattas and go to international ILCA events, the cost of a new sail now and then is only a small part of the total cost to play the game when you consider costs of travel, accommodation, entry fees, charter fees, clinics, coach etc. etc. 

If you just want to race with your local club or frostbite fleet you will probably find that they will allow you to sail with a "practice" sail that is identical to the ILCA sail but is not ILCA class legal. Enjoy!

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Has anybody ever claimed that Laser sails are fair value? 

No, I have never claimed that anything that current ILCA leadership has done is fair value.  Not just sails.  There is nothing about an ILCA that one could argue is even remotely fair value.  Way over priced for what it is. 

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15 minutes ago, Wess said:

No, I have never claimed that anything that current ILCA leadership has done is fair value.  Not just sails.  There is nothing about an ILCA that one could argue is even remotely fair value.  Way over priced for what it is. 

Of the OD single handed dingies with new boats available on the market.  Which ones would you consider "fair" in their value?

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40 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Of the OD single handed dingies with new boats available on the market.  Which ones would you consider "fair" in their value?

The ones that people are buying...

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38 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Of the OD single handed dingies with new boats available on the market.  Which ones would you consider "fair" in their value?

If we are talking boats then I think if you are being fair its had to argue that the Aero is not a much much much better boat than an ILCA at what I think is a cheaper price.

The UFO is a hugely better boat at a much much cheaper price.

As just two examples of boats that I have sailed recently.

The ILCA is a really old design that used antiquated construction techniques and materials, and which has been made (artificially) more and more and more expensive by those running the class when instead it could be made less and less expensive and improve access.  For gosh sake the UFO - a much more modern design - costs many thousands of dollars LESS than an ILCA and its more robust.  And faster.  And lighter.

Ian Bruce envisioned a single handed boat for the masses that would be accessible.  ILCA has killed that and gone the exact opposite direction making it more and more expensive.  

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2 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Umm.  Ok.  ILCA's are being bought.  What else is selling?

Aeros and UFOs both out sold ILCA in the US.

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

Aeros and UFOs both out sold ILCA in the US.

I can see the sales numbers with Aeros while ILCA distribution was essentially shut down for a year or so.  Aeros are actually more than ILCA's in cost but you are correct on the modern materials aspect.  UFO's are sold at a hell of a price for a foiler, but I consider these to be "outer perimeter" boats as foilers and thus will be hard pressed to have mass market appeal.  However, they are really cool and it's a great concept.  

We'll see what 2021 brings on the new hull counts in these classes.

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27 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Umm.  Ok.  ILCA's are being bought.  What else is selling?

Not counting multi-hulls, foiling boats and youth classes for now... 

I know ILCAs and RS Aeros are selling. So many people must be seeing them as "fair value."

ILCAs will do better in 2021 than they did in 2020 now that several new builders are online.

The RS Aero is more expensive than the ILCA, but IMHO it's a much better boat and well worth the premium. Someone who wants larger established fleets in more parts of the country and/or has Olympic aspirations in the short-term will obviously prefer the ILCA.

Not sure about Lasers, Sunfish and Melges 14s. Probably selling but in smaller numbers.

What other classes am I missing?

 

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

Uh, fact check time. I do think the Laser/ILCA is overpriced, but just to keep it real a new Waszp in the US is going to cost a lot more than a new ILCA. In 2017 they were available in the US for $12,500. What do they cost now, Wess? All I could find is a used one for $8,000

 

 

image.png

image.png

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No clue Bill. Just posted the article which a friend had forwarded. Don't own one. I bought the UFO which was damn near half the price of the ILCA at the time.

Also the question was about value not absolute price.  Also to Robbie's question about what is selling... same friends answer was "generic sails." Claimed over half the folks at his club used them with fewer and fewer paying the huge upcharge for the class legal stuff.

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16 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I do think the Laser/ILCA is overpriced...

Why do you say that?

Surely the current price of an ILCA is a good deal given all the unique benefits that it offers - well proven design, large established fleets, strong regatta circuits, Olympic status, choice of world class builders, good market for used boats etc. etc. ?

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:



If you just want to race with your local club or frostbite fleet you will probably find that they will allow you to sail with a "practice" sail that is identical to the ILCA sail but is not ILCA class legal. Enjoy!

Not talking about the "Practice" sail which is £219 & is made of a lighter cloth.

The Class Compliant & Class Legal sails are exactly the same apart from the red button & price.

I've got a Class Compliant one & it even has a serial number on it, the same as the Class Legal ones just no button.

All 3 different sails have the Laser Logo. 

Ah, just realised this is the ILCA thread...Doh.

 

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32 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Why do you say that?

Surely the current price of an ILCA is a good deal given all the unique benefits that it offers - well proven design, large established fleets, strong regatta circuits, Olympic status, choice of world class builders, good market for used boats etc. etc. ?

Just the beast itself. But I will stick with good used boats. All those benefits you have listed are included!

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15 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Agreed

LOL, well done you grumpy Canadian you.  But just remember I will still get the ultimate revenge when I am sailing yet again this weekend (maybe even this evening) for the 11th time already this year.  Alas I did not get to go ice boating this winter as planned so if you have my revenge will be short lived and victory yours.

Either way ILCAs are not fair value.  Now a DN iceboat on the other hand.... 

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33 minutes ago, Wess said:

Either way ILCAs are not fair value.  Now a DN iceboat on the other hand.... 

IDK about this one if you divide the cost against the number of times you can actually sail it....

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Yea well that is why I was headed north before I had to detour to Boston on our winter vacation.  They got lots of hard heads and hard water up there in Canada.  Crossed foiling off the bucket list.  Got get ice boating next.  Have you ever priced an DN iceboat... Holy affordable batman!!

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

IDK about this one if you divide the cost against the number of times you can actually sail it....

A few years ago I really, really wanted to try iceboating.  Thought I might be able to go up north for weekend and find a demo ride somewhere.  I managed to make contact with someone either here or over on TLF.

One, he convinced me that a person with average dinghy sailing skills is not just going to hop on a DN and go scooting around on the ice.  Two, he described the narrow range of conditions of ice, temperature, humidity where iceboating is practical.  I think there was one regatta scheduled in New England, but everyone packed up and went to Michigan to find decent ice.

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23 hours ago, JMP said:

North are selling ILCA sails direct in the US/Canada now, marginally cheaper than they were before.  In Australia the MKII sail is a couple of hundred dollars more than an Aero7 sail, more expensive than an Aero9 sail from the same sail maker too

New ILCA Dinghy Sails - MK2, Radial, 4.7 | North Sails

This is significant - and incredibly positive. Long term, some have predicted that sailmakers selling direct may mean significant reductions.

I was aware there was an intention to support this at ILCA World Council level - but it appears it has happened. (I haven't been watching closely - been very busy with other stuff).

Care to comment @aroy210677??

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10 hours ago, RobbieB said:

IDK about this one if you divide the cost against the number of times you can actually sail it....

I had a DN and had one great season. Then after two shitty years I got rid of it.  One big snowfall makes a mess of it. 

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OK, I just got to jump in here.

We are mid-way through this process right now.   In the next 2-3 week, a group of extremely talented Gold Medallists and Gold Medal coaches plus series of industrial experts will have to make a decision between upwards of 5 suits of 49er sails and 5 suits of FX sails so possibly 30 different sail types, and we could end up with 6 sail manufactures each making a single component of the FX/49er inventory (say a FX jib, or a 49er spin, etc etc).

We have not taken this lightly, every step has been overseen by WS and the I49erCA.

But prior to April 1st (yes April fools’ day) JC (for the FX) and I haver to sign a bit of paper, & 6 months later we have new sails and baring a stupidity, certainly for 4 years, probably 8.

So, we have quotes from upwards of 10 sailmakers and they vary wildly from roughly what we would expect to double.    All overseen and scrutinised by WS and I49erCA.

We have short-listed to 3 sailmakers and possibly 5 options.

The 49er/FX sailors have spoken loudly and clearly, they want Consistency and Longevity even if it cost more.

Now if you go to https://bethwaite360.com/sails-single-source-vs-open/ sitting there un-altered for almost 5 years now you will see that open sail making = sail that are >$USD100/m² and closed sail making resulting or = < $USD100/m² which is why Laser, 49er, FX and 29ers sailors tend to be pretty happy about the deal they have.

Lasers have the luxury of a volume that means they can have 2-3 sailmakers all making the same thing (nominally) but any interpretation of what’s happening ring now WRT Tokyo would suggest that there are idiosyncrasies even with ILCA micromanagement process.

49er/FX/29er do not have the volume to have that luxury!

My point being is that if you allow sailmakers to deal directly with the customer, at some stage in the future be it pressure from MNA’s or some pedantic customer who has very very