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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

But, as Dave Clark rightly pointed out elsewhere, price does not equal cost + profit margin. Not for a sustainable business anyway.

Is there really $850 or $650 or whatever value in a genuine Laser sail?  Not compared to other tailored objects (suit, dress, handbag, tent) and not compared to an Intensity Mk2 training sail ($160). 

 

 

Huh? As long as the margin remains acceptable, the business is sustainable.   No? And value is subjective and determined by each buyer. One who wants to participate in ILCA events most certainly values the class legal sail. A weekend warrior probably not at all. Same with a new class legal boat. And in some cases, people will buy new because it makes them feel good and they value that feeling more than saving a few shekels. I think the sails are expensive, but Dave explained to me why. Earlier I also questioned the value but I really should have referred to price.

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Think of the purchase price of a new ILCA legal sail as being like the dues to join an exclusive club. Once you have paid your dues you can sail in all the ILCA events in your local area, regional and national events, and even go to Masters Worlds if you are old enough.

If you don't value the privileges of this club enough to pay the entry fee, then buy a sail from Intensity and have fun sailing with your local club.

It's like everything else. If you want the best things in life you have to pay the price.

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The cost of entering ILCA events should be on the annual cost of ILCA membership or the entry to a specific event, not levied on the price of spare parts that everyone eventually needs whether they enter ILCA events or not.  Most ILCA/Laser owners have no intention of ever entering an ILCA sanctioned event and should be able to buy consumable parts without subsiding the elite few.  

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14 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Most ILCA/Laser owners have no intention of ever entering an ILCA sanctioned event and should be able to buy consumable parts without subsiding the elite few.  

Those people can buy sails from Intensity for $160. They don't have to buy the more expensive class-legal sails.

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32 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

The cost of entering ILCA events should be on the annual cost of ILCA membership or the entry to a specific event, not levied on the price of spare parts that everyone eventually needs whether they enter ILCA events or not.  Most ILCA/Laser owners have no intention of ever entering an ILCA sanctioned event and should be able to buy consumable parts without subsiding the elite few.  

So which  currently manufactured single hander excluding the Sunfish would you suggest getting where $150.00 or similar   sails are widely available ?

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41 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

The cost of entering ILCA events should be on the annual cost of ILCA membership or the entry to a specific event, not levied on the price of spare parts that everyone eventually needs whether they enter ILCA events or not.  Most ILCA/Laser owners have no intention of ever entering an ILCA sanctioned event and should be able to buy consumable parts without subsiding the elite few.  

Again? It’s only a few bucks per sail.

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43 minutes ago, VWAP said:

So which  currently manufactured single hander excluding the Sunfish would you suggest getting where $150.00 or similar   sails are widely available ?

Great point. 

You could argue that the availability of sails for $150 is one of the most important reasons for the continuing popularity of the Laser at the grass-roots level.

 

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You are missing my point a bit.

a. Industry experts reckon the fair, sustainable,  price is ball park $800. 

b. $800 is an expensive bit of tailoring for what you get compared to what the same amount will get you for a dress or tent.

c. $800 is not a good value proposition for many non-elite Laser sailors.

d. Any sensible business organisation would aim to sell spares to all its customers, not just the elite few. 

e. A well known sailmaker is offering an alternative at less than $200.  This isn’t just a bit less, which could be accounted for by not incurring development costs and not being as socially conscientious - this is disruptively less.

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:

Great point. 

You could argue that the availability of sails for $150 is one of the most important reasons for the continuing popularity of the Laser at the grass-roots level.

 

So many lessons to

learn from

that.

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7 hours ago, sosoomii said:

The cost of entering ILCA events should be on the annual cost of ILCA membership or the entry to a specific event, not levied on the price of spare parts that everyone eventually needs whether they enter ILCA events or not.  Most ILCA/Laser owners have no intention of ever entering an ILCA sanctioned event and should be able to buy consumable parts without subsiding the elite few.  

Amen!

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

You are missing my point a bit.

a. Industry experts reckon the fair, sustainable,  price is ball park $800. 

b. $800 is an expensive bit of tailoring for what you get compared to what the same amount will get you for a dress or tent.

c. $800 is not a good value proposition for many non-elite Laser sailors.

d. Any sensible business organisation would aim to sell spares to all its customers, not just the elite few. 

e. A well known sailmaker is offering an alternative at less than $200.  This isn’t just a bit less, which could be accounted for by not incurring development costs and not being as socially conscientious - this is disruptively less.

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

You are missing my point a bit.

a. Industry experts reckon the fair, sustainable,  price is ball park $800. 

b. $800 is an expensive bit of tailoring for what you get compared to what the same amount will get you for a dress or tent.

c. $800 is not a good value proposition for many non-elite Laser sailors.

d. Any sensible business organisation would aim to sell spares to all its customers, not just the elite few. 

e. A well known sailmaker is offering an alternative at less than $200.  This isn’t just a bit less, which could be accounted for by not incurring development costs and not being as socially conscientious - this is disruptively less.

Which point?

a) yes, I asked that question and Dave replied.

b) not sure how to compare a sail with a dress. I don’t have any. Or how that is relevant. I have had suits made for me, but the inseam ripped when I put on too much vang.And wearing my sail makes my ass look fat.

c) no argument from anyone than I can recall. I also believe the LP boat is a good option if you just race at the club - if you can find one. But I choose a good used boat and am totally competitive in the region.

d) I will forward your comment to North. Idiots.

e) and the perfect option for the non sanctioned event racer!

What am I missing?
 

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8 hours ago, Bill5 said:

What am I missing?

Why don’t ILCA approve the Intensity sail for competition? If it measures, who are they to disallow it?

ILCA have opened the lid on FRANDora’s box, but trapped common sense inside. 

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aren't sails next on the list for additional suppliers?  Fairly sure I read that in one of the articles in the recent past on the back of the additional builder announcements.  I'd hope Intensity would throw their hat in the ring, but I'd guess ILCA will put a clause in the contract stating that they can't make "Practice" sails or similar.
Pryde do "Practice" sails though direct so I guess time will tell  Laser Radial Practice Racing Sail - Neil Pryde Sails International

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21 hours ago, VWAP said:

So which  currently manufactured single hander excluding the Sunfish would you suggest getting where $150.00 or similar   sails are widely available ?

This- BTW the Sunfish class legal "race sail" goes for $535.00 at West Coast Sailing so WTF are y'all yammering on about?

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8 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

"Hey- I can take a dump in a box and stamp it "Guaranteed" but what does that get you??"

Are you trying to say the affordable generic sails that are not class legal are a dump in the box?  :wacko:

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6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

 

Why don’t ILCA approve the Intensity sail for competition? If it measures, who are they to disallow it?

 

I know that we have been discussing this topic for at least 10 years. You think someone would have solved it by now.

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32 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I know that we have been discussing this topic for at least 10 years. You think someone would have solved it by now.

Having owned and sailed and Intensity sail I can say with knowledge it's a different sail and trims differently.  Different material and either a slightly different cut or not quite the QC on the cut/stitching you get from the class approved sails.  The MKII version also sports a different window, (like totally different).  Now, I don't complain at all and am happy to see new sailors come out when they have one of these sails.  They represent a great value for what they are.  Hell, I even recommend them to folks who are not eager to dump $600 on a new sail.  However, I also know those folks won't contest the front of the fleet for typically a lot of reasons but one is the quality is not the same as what you're getting on a class sail.  

I challenge you to pick a sport where quality gear does NOT make a difference.  

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Are you trying to say the affordable generic sails that are not class legal are a dump in the box?  :wacko:

It goes back to "Tommy Boy".  Do you want quality brake pads or the generic stuff?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Are you trying to say the affordable generic sails that are not class legal are a dump in the box?  :wacko:

I believe they are mostly made in that country with whom you will not conduct business anyway.

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29 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

It goes back to "Tommy Boy".  Do you want quality brake pads or the generic stuff?

Wasn't Bo Derek in that movie?

1553643216_boderek.jpg.5ff38645e3fa854c67907da3edbcc818.jpg

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48 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I challenge you to pick a sport where quality gear does NOT make a difference.  

I've never seen the Intensity sail but I own the Rooster (231€) and I can  assure you it doesn't look or feel of lower quality than a legal MK2.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Having owned and sailed and Intensity sail I can say with knowledge it's a different sail and trims differently.  Different material and either a slightly different cut or not quite the QC on the cut/stitching you get from the class approved sails.  The MKII version also sports a different window, (like totally different).  Now, I don't complain at all and am happy to see new sailors come out when they have one of these sails.  They represent a great value for what they are.  Hell, I even recommend them to folks who are not eager to dump $600 on a new sail.  However, I also know those folks won't contest the front of the fleet for typically a lot of reasons but one is the quality is not the same as what you're getting on a class sail.  

I challenge you to pick a sport where quality gear does NOT make a difference.  

Too busy at office to get into it right now but come on man. This just ain't so.

First even ignoring the generic sails, anyone who has sailed a Laser and is honest would tell you there was a lot of difference between the class legal sails... MKI to MKII.  There as more differences in trim between those 2 class legal sails then I have ever seen between a generic and the class legal sail it matches.

Second I have seen folks in the front, middle, and back of the fleet use generic sails and it made zero difference in their standings.  Its total BS to say you could not be at the top of the fleet using a generic sail.  You could be at the top of the fleet and have $500 bucks in your pocket that ILCA can't pick-pocket.

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22 minutes ago, Wess said:

Too busy at office to get into it right now but come on man. This just ain't so.

First even ignoring the generic sails, anyone who has sailed a Laser and is honest would tell you there was a lot of difference between the class legal sails... MKI to MKII.  There as more differences in trim between those 2 class legal sails then I have ever seen between a generic and the class legal sail it matches.

Second I have seen folks in the front, middle, and back of the fleet use generic sails and it made zero difference in their standings.  Its total BS to say you could not be at the top of the fleet using a generic sail.  You could be at the top of the fleet and have $500 bucks in your pocket that ILCA can't pick-pocket.

One thing for sure is that there is a huge difference between a new Laser sail and one that's been used hard for 3 or 4 years.

So buy an Intensity sail to use for practice and for races where ILCA approved sails are not required, and save your nice crisp ILCA legal sail for the big championships.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Wasn't Bo Derek in that movie?

1553643216_boderek.jpg.5ff38645e3fa854c67907da3edbcc818.jpg

No, but that's a wonderful distraction.  Who remembers her Playboy spread back in the day?  One shot was her sailing a hobie 14" on some desert lake, up on one hull, in the buff of course....

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52 minutes ago, Wess said:

First even ignoring the generic sails, anyone who has sailed a Laser and is honest would tell you there was a lot of difference between the class legal sails... MKI to MKII.  There as more differences in trim between those 2 class legal sails then I have ever seen between a generic and the class legal sail it matches.  True- but either one trimmed correctly is just as fast as the other.

Second I have seen folks in the front, middle, and back of the fleet use generic sails and it made zero difference in their standings.  Its total BS to say you could not be at the top of the fleet using a generic sail.  You could be at the top of the fleet and have $500 bucks in your pocket that ILCA can't pick-pocket. Probably true- but I've only seen one top sailor using a generic sail. He was getting back into the boat and used the generic one season before going class legal.  Top folks are way more likely going to use the class legal gear because it is better and they will sail in events when it's required.

 

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33 minutes ago, tillerman said:

One thing for sure is that there is a huge difference between a new Laser sail and one that's been used hard for 3 or 4 years. Yes.

So buy an Intensity sail to use for practice and for races where ILCA approved sails are not required, and save your nice crisp ILCA legal sail for the big championships. Tried it, but the differences in trim between the two made me ditch the generic.  It's hard to FB all winter and then show up to your first district event trying to remember how the class legal sail trimmed.   

 

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

I've never seen the Intensity sail but I own the Rooster (231€) and I can  assure you it doesn't look or feel of lower quality than a legal MK2.

I'd wager while the actual cutting of the sail is fairly automated and stitching is fine, the cloth selection requirements are not as tight/specific as the class sail.  

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I am pretty sure ILCA has a similar deal with the sailmakers as with the Builders; i.e. only "authorized" suppliers are allowed to play. As JMP stated, and as alluded by sossoomi, this will probably get FRANDED, and sailmakers will be appointed. We already know the price is better than what a NA sailmaker could do, so it looks like a sailmaker in Wess's favorite jurisdiction will have to step up an cut and stitch them cheap. 

If the question is "why aren't we allowed to have sails that are shittier than North's", I can't answer that, but it is an odd question. My experience with Intensity from a few years ago is the sail was OK, but the quality wasn't there. I did find that when I got the best start, hit the shifts, and found pressure downwind, I would do pretty well with both sails. I play golf, and I had knock-off clubs as a newby that were "exactly the same" as the brand names, but as I improved I could certainly tell the difference.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

I am pretty sure ILCA has a similar deal with the sailmakers as with the Builders; i.e. only "authorized" suppliers are allowed to play. As JMP stated, and as alluded by sossoomi, this will probably get FRANDED, and sailmakers will be appointed. We already know the price is better than what a NA sailmaker could do, so it looks like a sailmaker in Wess's favorite jurisdiction will have to step up an cut and stitch them cheap. 

If the question is "why aren't we allowed to have sails that are shittier than North's", I can't answer that, but it is an odd question. My experience with Intensity from a few years ago is the sail was OK, but the quality wasn't there. I did find that when I got the best start, hit the shifts, and found pressure downwind, I would do pretty well with both sails. I play golf, and I had knock-off clubs as a newby that were "exactly the same" as the brand names, but as I improved I could certainly tell the difference.

In the star class we have multiple head sails (65 sf  $1200.00 ) and multiple mains that we use for different conditions. So let's open up to any builder  (to bring the cost down)  then we can all buy a bunch of  sails for real or perceived differences as we currently do with the Hyde and North which I currently take at least one of each to every regatta. Not interested in the Neil Pryde at this time. 

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On 1/23/2021 at 4:07 AM, RobbieB said:

However, as someone who has been in the print industry for 25 years I can tell you the cost of these magazines is getting to where organizations with any budget constraints just can't afford them.  Paper costs are going through the roof as paper mills are closing frequently, (due to lower demand) limiting the supply chain.  We saw 5 cost increases last year alone on a few products.  Postage is at least 3-4 times higher than the cost of the mailer items.  I actually submitted a bid to Sherri and Jocelyn a year or so ago and went really low cause I would have loved to print The Laser Sailor.  I was significantly higher than the previous print shop which makes me think they were not sad to see that business go.  The digital format is not loved by us old farts who love to sit in bed with our readers on and smell the ink of the latest addition during our pre-sleep read.  However, they can put so much more content in it with links to additional info.  AND there is no weight penalty from the post office because your Laser Sailor went from 30 pages to 50 pages.  If the new Secretary is doing her job the new additions should be PACKED with great material! 

RobbieB

Great article in the current NA newsletter. Thanks for being one of those that is actually  putting in the effort to maintain and  grow this great class. 

The good part of the digital newsletter is there is no restriction on the number of pages and it can be or parts of it printed out. Isabella the new class secretary should be commended on her work. 

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52 minutes ago, VWAP said:

In the star class we have multiple head sails (65 sf  $1200.00 ) and multiple mains that we use for different conditions. So let's open up to any builder  (to bring the cost down)  then we can all buy a bunch of  sails for real or perceived differences as we currently do with the Hyde and North which I currently take at least one of each to every regatta. Not interested in the Neil Pryde at this time. 

I wonder how many sailmakers would respond to a tender? No expert, but my guess is you need a reasonably sophisticated loft. 

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For those that are too cheap  do not want to support the ILCA and all the good work they do maintaining this international class (and support their super duper super secret vacays)  and pay the 28.87 sail button fee they can build their own sail 

https://www.sailrite.com/Laser-Colored-Main-Sail-Kit

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On 1/24/2021 at 5:46 AM, Bruce Hudson said:

Hmmm... To some extent, that ship may have already sailed Julian. ILCA (the association) will be all over any differences (or even perceived differences) like a bad rash.

Sailmakers selling direct is intended to reduce the cost of sails, with good reason - the supply chain is shorter and there are fewer hands trying to get profit. If there are three sailmakers, then it becomes battle of cost to secure market share. In my view, there should be a moderate reduction in the price to sailors.

While there is a possibility that there may be a 'better sail' developed, it would be unlikely that could happen without being noticed, and in my view ILCA is willing and able to take action against that. (Including the cancellation of that sailmaker's rights to make official sails). In my view, the the risk of by sailmakers get caught if they cheat is very high.

 

Hi Bruce, the SAILORS will be all over it like a rash, they are so far ahead of ILCA that they will be exploiting the idiosyncrasies long before ILCA is even aware that they may have the inklings of a rash.

Again, we are going through this right now, radial sails have say 8 radials, you tell me how you sanction or police a 0.5mm movement on a seam.     Just imagine the shit show when ILCA take say North to task saying that their seam is out by 0.25mm.   Good luck, and if say one of the sail makers push those 8 seams the same way you just got 4mm of movement.

Hence the current sailors exploiting the current situation right now.

Lots of ways to "discourage" the sailmakers, 

#1 issue sails to be used in major events, so no one person can get their sail for say the worlds from X sailmaker.

#2 Photo scan sails using the same hull, same mast, same boom and same tensions on the controls and publish the discrepancies, (you can do all of this under the 1 : 10 rule) and be prepared to kick out the one that is outside the range.

#3 Carefully inspect at random, anyone in the top 10 of each race (we already do this in the 49er/FX)

And the list goes on, as I said, I hope ILCA/North/Pryde & Hyde prove me wrong!

 

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14 hours ago, VWAP said:

RobbieB

Great article in the current NA newsletter. Thanks for being one of those that is actually  putting in the effort to maintain and  grow this great class. 

The good part of the digital newsletter is there is no restriction on the number of pages and it can be or parts of it printed out. Isabella the new class secretary should be commended on her work. 

Thanks VWAP.  Not to mention all of the extended content available through the links in the digital version.  I think we'll see the magazine grow as things continue to settle out as there is no limit on the page count!  Be on the look out for an article about how to keep your composite top section from getting stuck in your aluminum bottom section.  I believe that is coming soon.  

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11 hours ago, JulianB said:

Again, we are going through this right now, radial sails have say 8 radials, you tell me how you sanction or police a 0.5mm movement on a seam.    

Hey Julian- I'm not about to get into a manufacturing debate you amigo as I'm sure you've forgotten more than I'll ever know about pretty much anything related to manufacturing.  However, I would like to toss out the term, "Reasonable manufacturing tolerances."  

As none of us mortals have access to the build guides we don't know what those are, but we do know how some of it plays out in class measurements.  Anyway, I imagine and hope the class has the acceptable tolerances spelled out.  Hopefully, our measurers will take random samples from the sail suppliers from time to time to make sure things are staying on track, but I'm sure they are a little distracted with the new hull builders at the moment.... 

As people have picked up around here I do often hope for the best in this scenario...

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12 hours ago, JulianB said:

Lots of ways to "discourage" the sailmakers, 

#1 issue sails to be used in major events, so no one person can get their sail for say the worlds from X sailmaker.

#2 Photo scan sails using the same hull, same mast, same boom and same tensions on the controls and publish the discrepancies, (you can do all of this under the 1 : 10 rule) and be prepared to kick out the one that is outside the range.

#3 Carefully inspect at random, anyone in the top 10 of each race (we already do this in the 49er/FX)

And the list goes on, as I said, I hope ILCA/North/Pryde & Hyde prove me wrong!

 

And yet people still say development classes are expensive and complicated.

 

DRC

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Our first container of Ovington ILCAs has arrived.

Next container going directly to British Columbia.
Then more arrived mixed in with all of our RS containers heading this way

West_Coast_Sailing_-_Ovington_ILCAs.png

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52 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

Our first container of Ovington ILCAs has arrived.

Next container going directly to British Columbia.
Then more arrived mixed in with all of our RS containers heading this way

West_Coast_Sailing_-_Ovington_ILCAs.png

That's a beautiful sight!  I can smell the resin from here.

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17 hours ago, JulianB said:

Hi Bruce, the SAILORS will be all over it like a rash, they are so far ahead of ILCA that they will be exploiting the idiosyncrasies long before ILCA is even aware that they may have the inklings of a rash.

Again, we are going through this right now, radial sails have say 8 radials, you tell me how you sanction or police a 0.5mm movement on a seam.     Just imagine the shit show when ILCA take say North to task saying that their seam is out by 0.25mm.   Good luck, and if say one of the sail makers push those 8 seams the same way you just got 4mm of movement.

Thanks Julian, I agree with what you say above.

Pretty sure you can't police it as an absolute, without tolerances. Different batches of sails will have slight differences (eg the threads are slightly different), so there will always be movement.

Most of us who have raced Lasers have seen how the measurement works at the official ILCA contests, and that there is some tolerance to very minor differences - mostly from the sail stretching over time.

What happens is that those who are completely obsessed may buy several sails (or spars), and try and figure the differences. It's doubtful that those differences translate to significant differences in boat speed on the water - I have never seen or heard of major differences in Laser sails - there is talk about the differences between North and Hyde - but never heard of one being faster than the other. (Though once I did have a really old sail with the lighter weight cloth that seemed to be really good in light airs - maybe the difference was psychological.)

Bottom line is that the system in place right now works - and differences in boat speed are all about technique: the trim (main, outhall, kicker, Cunningham), wiggling the stick, and body movements. (Also the sailor's weight). Just as it should be.

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5 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

And yet people still say development classes are expensive and complicated.

Yep. The difference is that expense is met by the manufacturer, then passed on. Post manufacturer, Laser sails are way less complicated - and less expensive.

In practice, a Laser sail bought 5 years ago will be competitive against a Laser sail bought last week.

With development, some new advance means that if you intend winning then you must buy the latest - and if you may several versions (2 or 3 sails) for different regatta conditions. In the end, two Laser sails (one backup) is far cheaper and less complex than a proper sail development program for a development class. 

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5 hours ago, WestCoast said:

Our first container of Ovington ILCAs has arrived.

Next container going directly to British Columbia.
Then more arrived mixed in with all of our RS containers heading this way

West_Coast_Sailing_-_Ovington_ILCAs.png

Is that how they are shipped, on stacking dollies?

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

With development, some new advance means that if you intend winning then you must buy the latest - and if you may several versions (2 or 3 sails) for different regatta conditions. In the end, two Laser sails (one backup) is far cheaper and less complex than a proper sail development program for a development class. 

This isn't true at all. I've been to world championships where "obsolete" and genuinely old gear wins in a landslide. Development spirals towards a goal, rather than following a linear progression. The only true problem is that the people who ask themselves "what do I need to BUY to WIN" become certain that they need to buy more. This isn't empirically true but it is entirely true to those people. 

DRC

Ps. sorry for creating thread drift

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10 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

This isn't true at all. I've been to world championships where "obsolete" and genuinely old gear wins in a landslide. Development spirals towards a goal, rather than following a linear progression. The only true problem is that, for the people who ask themselves "what do I need to BUY to WIN" become certain that they need to buy more. This isn't empirically true but it is entirely true to those people. 

DRC

We agree Dave, it is a combination and driven by the objective to win.

Of course there are old sails that work well - a famous example is an old jib that Rex Sellers and Chris Timms used on the Tonados. They tried hard to make new ones that were the same cut - but failed (the jib had stretched in a peculiar way) So they used the old jib. On the other hand, their mains were brand new.

The point I made incredibly badly is that generally, the latest thinking is faster than the thinking was 5 years ago. And even if the thinking hasn't changed - a new sail that hasn't stretched is almost always faster than an old blown-out sail. Developments in the materials are also important for development programmes... etc...

It is never about 'buying to win' - it is about going faster - or at least as fast as the competition. Development may include making some sails that are never used, as in the case of Timms and Sellers.

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4 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

This isn't true at all. I've been to world championships where "obsolete" and genuinely old gear wins in a landslide. Development spirals towards a goal, rather than following a linear progression. The only true problem is that the people who ask themselves "what do I need to BUY to WIN" become certain that they need to buy more. This isn't empirically true but it is entirely true to those people. 

DRC

Ps. sorry for creating thread drift

There can be confusion between "buy to win' and "no excuse to loose". Nothing wrong at all levels of racing to have the latest, freshest equipment when you hit the starting line.

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16 hours ago, Bill5 said:

@WestCoast - who is the BC dealer?

We take care of B.C. for both  RS and Ovington ILCAs @Bill5
Attend the boat show, do the paperwork, logistics. It's pretty seamless to get 29ers, ILCAs and tons and tons of RS boats into B.C. these days.

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9 hours ago, VWAP said:

There can be confusion between "buy to win' and "no excuse to loose". Nothing wrong at all levels of racing to have the latest, freshest equipment when you hit the starting line.

I think I read that in a Dennis Conner book or article a long time ago and I practice it.  "Never let your gear be an excuse for loosing." 

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13 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I think I read that in a Dennis Conner book or article a long time ago and I practice it.  "Never let your gear be an excuse for loosing." 

51+22Covl8L._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Haven't heard from Wess in a bit.  I guess a warehouse in North America full of ILCA's was too much to take?

#where'smyrum?

#Igottarumblyinmytumbly

 

2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I think I read that in a Dennis Conner book or article a long time ago and I practice it.  "Never let your gear be an excuse for loosing." 

Ha.  Work is killing me. 

And no rum for you.  You lost that bet ages ago Mr. Welsher and owe me rum.

But on the first quote... this is exactly the problem and why I part ways with ILCA.  You are now well over $10,000 (delivered to your door) and well over the base price by the time you option up and tweak out your ILCA with composite uppers and lowers, and, and, and...  Sailors are paying through the nose and the only ones making money are ILCA, WS, and PSA who skim off the top of every single sale of boat and gear and upgrade.

That ain't grass roots sailing. It does not benefit, it hurts club sailing. It only enriches ILCA, PSA, and WS. 

That is not what Laser was and is entirely inconsistent with Ian Bruce's vision for the boat and class.

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On 1/25/2021 at 2:33 AM, sosoomii said:

 

Why don’t ILCA approve the Intensity sail for competition? If it measures, who are they to disallow it?

ILCA have opened the lid on FRANDora’s box, but trapped common sense inside. 

Because they are not interested in bringing prices down. They are interested - and very successfully have - inflated prices to an insane level and then they skim off the top.  This is how ILCA makes money

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And the VendeeGlobe finish is a major distraction @RobbieB.  Damn covid... would love to be there for the reception of Jean Le Cam.  One amazing dude.

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On 1/21/2021 at 10:56 PM, Xeon said:

 

54 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

That is not what Laser was and is entirely inconsistent with Ian Bruce's vision for the boat and class.

Err Ian Bruce’s vision for the boat was for it to be successful and for him to make loads of money out of it . Nothing more .

His vision turned out to be half right as the boat was successful :D

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

51+22Covl8L._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

No that's not it. Above they are clear they are talking about "no excuse to loose".

Incidentally, I read "No excuse to lose" I think in 1979, when I was young. Had a different cover.

No Excuse to Lose: Winning Yacht Races With Dennis Connor: Conner, Dennis,  Rousmaniere, John: 9780393032123: Amazon.com: Books

Dennis Conner was a good sailor, peaking with winning a bronze medal in the Tempest in '76. ;) 

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

That is not what Laser was and is entirely inconsistent with Ian Bruce's vision for the boat and class.

Nice troll. Same answer. You are right, Ian Bruce's vision was to build 400 a year so he could retire, and asked Coleman for backing. I, for one, am pleased he failed with this vision. 

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15 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I think I read that in a Dennis Conner book or article a long time ago and I practice it.  "Never let your gear be an excuse for loosing." 

“You are likely to learn more about winning yacht races by reading this book than from anything you’ve read in quite a while. . . . [It] gives us a close look at Conner―surely the most successful sailboat skipper in the United States today . . .” ―Bruce Kirby

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18 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Nice troll. Same answer. You are right, Ian Bruce's vision was to build 400 a year so he could retire, and asked Coleman for backing. I, for one, am pleased he failed with this vision. 

That is funny right there. And sad re misrepresenting Ian Bruce but whatever. To each his own.

  * So list all the options on an ILCA boat and the cost of each vs the base boat.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

That is funny right there. And sad re misrepresenting Ian Bruce but whatever. To each his own.

  

Not sure if you are the best or the silliest troll , which either way is saying something very special  on SA.:D

 But either way thinking Ian Bruce had any other reason to have the laser designed other than to make money is just delusional . 

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Never said he didn't want to make money.  Its just he didn't have his hand out for a free hand out as so many in ILCA land do these days. They take your money for nothing.  Ian built boats. He took your money and gave you a boat.

Which brings us back to the ILCA moto... which is why they are in such dire straights!

PS - Still waiting for the option up list and costs to see which if any of you lemmings can be honest.

 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

That is funny right there. And sad re misrepresenting Ian Bruce but whatever. To each his own.

 

Here is the direct quote, your Smugness:

“I just wanted a little boat that I could build enough that I could actually make a living building boats” he recalled at an interview in the Bethwaite factory in Sydney, when he was redesigning the rig for his Byte singlehander. “I figured, 400 a year and I could retire. It was going to be a cottage boat – that’s why we called it the Weekender.”

And from the same article:

The project stagnated for a while as Ian Bruce tried get the backing of the huge leisure-goods manufacturer Coleman so they could compete with the major companies that had been lured into the booming dinghy market and were throwing vast resources at promoting their own brands of singlehanded beach boat.

It also seems Ian didn't mind making upgrades to his designs - noting above he redesigned the Byte rig:

image.png.77f8426d04f5f543e0916828a260f469.png

He more than likely would have loved and supported the new Bethwaite rigs for the ILCA!

 

 

 

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And yet again as much as much as you can't handle the truth, the the truth is I never said he didn't want to make money.   In fact he wanted to give you something for your money.  Which is very different than skimming off the top which is what ILCA, PSA and WS are doing and made Ian unique among the crowd of pick-pockets.  Hence the money for nothing theme directed at them and not Ian Bruce. 

Do you have that list of upgrades and costs of each yet Bill?

Signed,

Smugness (LOL)

 

Here is another ILCA lemming theme song for you...

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

And yet again as much as much as you can't handle the truth, the the truth is I never said he didn't want to make money.   In fact he wanted to give you something for your money.  Which is very different than skimming off the top which is what ILCA, PSA and WS are doing and made Ian unique among the crowd of pick-pockets.  Hence the money for nothing theme directed at them and not Ian Bruce. 

Do you have that list of upgrades and costs of each yet Bill?

Signed,

Smugness (LOL)

Ahh. Classic Wess - a twist here and a turn there. Well done. Trollo supremo.  You seem to have an intimate knowledge of Ian Bruce's vision that is different that what he said in the interview. What was his vision? And how do you know? I suppose your immense talents enable you to speak with the dead. If so - let me know as there are a few folks I would like you to pass along a few messages for me. Thanks in advance. . 

Now this upgrade shite that you have somehow dragged me into. Are you actually asking me to compile some kind of a list for you? Nice try. Why would I do that? 

 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Now this upgrade shite that you have somehow dragged me into. Are you actually asking me to compile some kind of a list for you? Nice try. Why would I do that? 

 

If Wess wants to know the costs of various "upgrades" on the new ILCA he is planning to buy, why doesn't he just go and check out one of the ILCA dealers' websites? 

 

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Because its more fun to have Bill do it.  #TryingToHelpLemmingsSeeTheLight

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Because its more fun to have Bill do it.  #TryingToHelpLemmingsSeeTheLight

What I know is the 2020 boat is at least twice as good as the 1970 boat with the improvements and upgrades in fit, finish, build quality, fittings, foils, sail - everything. So the $700 in 1970 is $4700 today. Twice as good = $9400. 

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Here is the direct quote, your Smugness:

“I just wanted a little boat that I could build enough that I could actually make a living building boats” he recalled at an interview in the Bethwaite factory in Sydney, when he was redesigning the rig for his Byte singlehander. “I figured, 400 a year and I could retire. It was going to be a cottage boat – that’s why we called it the Weekender.”

And from the same article:

The project stagnated for a while as Ian Bruce tried get the backing of the huge leisure-goods manufacturer Coleman so they could compete with the major companies that had been lured into the booming dinghy market and were throwing vast resources at promoting their own brands of singlehanded beach boat.

It also seems Ian didn't mind making upgrades to his designs - noting above he redesigned the Byte rig:

image.png.77f8426d04f5f543e0916828a260f469.png

He more than likely would have loved and supported the new Bethwaite rigs for the ILCA!

 

 

 

Spot on 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

What I know is the 2020 boat is at least twice as good as the 1970 boat with the improvements and upgrades in fit, finish, build quality, fittings, foils, sail - everything. So the $700 in 1970 is $4700 today. Twice as good = $9400. 

"twice as good"

Hmmm....

What does that mean?  Twice as good how?  Twice as fast?  Twice as what exactly?

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21 minutes ago, Wess said:

"twice as good"

Hmmm....

What does that mean?  Twice as good how?  Twice as fast?  Twice as what exactly?

Twice as many purchases in the vang, the downhaul and the outhaul.
 

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LOL; that got a laugh!  Nicely played Tiller.  I thought maybe Bill was gong for twice as many sails before your top section broke.  Or your sail blew out.  OK, I admit I have no clue what is "twice as" about an ILCA upgrade except maybe twice as expensive as it should be.  Or twice as good a chance for ILCA, PSA, and WS to skim off the top. :lol:

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52 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL; that got a laugh!  Nicely played Tiller.  I thought maybe Bill was gong for twice as many sails before your top section broke.  Or your sail blew out.  OK, I admit I have no clue what is "twice as" about an ILCA upgrade except maybe twice as expensive as it should be.  Or twice as good a chance for ILCA, PSA, and WS to skim off the top. :lol:

Come on. The new boats are way better than the old boats. Maybe even 2.36 times better. Unless you have a preference for draining your hull between races, praying your mast step doesn’t rip out of your deck jibing in some breeze, seeing your new 3.2.ounce snot rag main blow out in one regatta, shredding your hands on poly line etc etc.. Night and day. And don’t tell me you expect someone to total up all the top secret fees for you yet again. Look it up yourself and report back. Along with your top secret insights on what Ian Bruce’s vision was. You still must have the letters he wrote you looking for advice. 

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Bill - Its too easy to wind you up.  You and Firefly and this thread are my guilty little pleasure.  All this fun just for speaking truth about how badly ILCA sucks for club level grass root sailors (yes I admit they do fine for the elite by sucking off everybody else).  You gotta go join The Laser Class and chill a bit man. 

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42 minutes ago, Wess said:

Bill - Its too easy to wind you up.  You and Firefly and this thread are my guilty little pleasure.  All this fun just for speaking truth about how badly ILCA sucks for club level grass root sailors (yes I admit they do fine for the elite by sucking off everybody else).  You gotta go join The Laser Class and chill a bit man. 

So no answers. Understood. Ya got nothin’. How’s the new ILCA dinghy?
(note I left the potty humour in your post alone)

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10 hours ago, Wess said:

All this fun just for speaking truth about how badly ILCA sucks for club level grass root sailors (yes I admit they do fine for the elite by sucking off everybody else).  You gotta go join The Laser Class and chill a bit man. 

It's Friday!  So, I gotta ask.  Why is ILCA sooooo bad for ANY club/grass roots laser/ILCA sailor?  There's a lot of decent used boats to choose from, (although the value of these boats have gone up as of late because ILCA sucks so bad) and at the club/grass roots level people have access to all sorts of after market gear, (that's less than Rasty stuff BTW) to put on their boats and get sailing.  We just bought a truck load of Intensity gear for our local club boats.

Other than "vapor ware" what exactly is "The Laser Class" at the moment...?   It would be very easy to use your own arguments during the past year, (particularly the, "these guys don't have a clue what they are doing" and "management sucks" ones) against The Laser Class.  

At the bargain basement new boat pricing do you ever wonder if you're simply getting what you pay for?

Maybe that's your point.  If you just want a new "laser like" boat to dink around on and you have no concern for resale value then sure TLC is for you, but if you actually aspire to have the opportunity to participate in high quality, organized events with high caliber competitors then the ILCA is for you.  Does that sum up your position a little?

 

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

It's Friday!  So, I gotta ask.  Why is ILCA sooooo bad for ANY club/grass roots laser/ILCA sailor?  There's a lot of decent used boats to choose from, (although the value of these boats have gone up as of late because ILCA sucks so bad) and at the club/grass roots level people have access to all sorts of after market gear, (that's less than Rasty stuff BTW) to put on their boats and get sailing.  We just bought a truck load of Intensity gear for our local club boats.

Other than "vapor ware" what exactly is "The Laser Class" at the moment...?   It would be very easy to use your own arguments during the past year, (particularly the, "these guys don't have a clue what they are doing" and "management sucks" ones) against The Laser Class.  

At the bargain basement new boat pricing do you ever wonder if you're simply getting what you pay for?

Maybe that's your point.  If you just want a new "laser like" boat to dink around on and you have no concern for resale value then sure TLC is for you, but if you actually aspire to have the opportunity to participate in high quality, organized events with high caliber competitors then the ILCA is for you.  Does that sum up your position a little?

Wess admitted above he is just trolling and looking to wind people up. No comments on ILCA's published financial info, no acknowledgment of ILCA's ability to attract quality builders  (other than negative comments on China) - just a bunch of hot air, conjecture and apparent clairvoyance. Not to be taken seriously. And my guilty pleasure is challenging him on his bullshit.

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Not so Bill.  I enjoy winding you and Firefly up but equally speak truth and am happy to discuss (when not worried w work as am at moment).

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Anyone heard stories about a well known alternative to the Laser sometimes being constructed from what the manufacturers have described as "recycled internal bulkheads"?

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