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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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15 hours ago, Bill5 said:

 

If I was looking for a new cottage boat, I would pick the Rocket in a heartbeat - way before an ILCA.

 

Whatever rocks your boat, Rocket Man.
 

 

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Imagine a used ILCA/Laser actually holding value?!?  The market is DRY in NC/SC/GA.  All boats have sold!  Seeing the prices of the used market now one can see values are going up.  Does that happen in a dying or mismanaged class that no one wants to be a part of?

Yea yea yea, I bet the ILCA leadership bought up all the used boats everywhere  last year  so the could resell them at a higher price and have  mo $  to extend their super duper super secret vacays this year. super duper super sneaky lot

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On 2/10/2021 at 12:34 PM, Wess said:

I am always happy to drink rum with another sailor but its impossible for you to win the bet even if you drag it out forever in your cheating way.  There are 3 components if you recall (which you folks designed to make it hard for me to win).  Even if the litigation ends and by some miracle you get a NA builder (not assemble putting parts on a Chinese hull... that is cheating again), you ain't never getting FRAND boats cheaper than SMOD boats no matter how much you might dream of it.  ILCA, WS, and PSA love their money too much.

And ice?  Come on; are you Canadian?  Like scotch you just add some water to open it up.  Not over ice.  Good God man!!

Good God man.........you dilute your Scotch with water.

We know not to open the good stuff when you are in the house.

 

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8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Good God man.........you dilute your Scotch with water.

We know not to open the good stuff when you are in the house.

 

 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/science-says-add-little-water-your-scotch-180964562/

Involving water is always a good thing.

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16 hours ago, sosoomii said:

We’ll see...

I'll agree here.  The 1%'ers are likely to receive the special treatment they always have.  I've heard, (from a pretty reliable source) that this extends back to the Vanguard days, (and yes Wess, this is a result of the boat being an olympic class).  The shop would separate out some hulls and decks and then assemble them based on certain buyer requests.  Mast rakes set as well.  An olympic guy here just sold his practice LP boat and in his ad he specifically states, "Mast rake set to my specification." While it's a specification it's also one that will measure in to the class build tolerances and guess what?  These guys also practice with each MKII from the 3 manufacturers because they can pick up on the differences and have different trim requirements for each one.  Considering the unbelievable majority of us will never get close the that level of skill or budget for that matter I honestly have no issue with the 1%'ers playing those games.    For any of us mortals who happen to end up with one of these boats second hand these "Specific" builds will not magically elevate our game because we don't have the bodies, (that come from living an olympic campaign) or the actual sailing skills, (that come from an olympic campaign) to take any advantage of the 3lbs lighter deck, 3lbs heavier hull and .25" rake difference, (one direction or another).  

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I'll agree here.  The 1%'ers are likely to receive the special treatment they always have.  I've heard, (from a pretty reliable source) that this extends back to the Vanguard days, (and yes Wess, this is a result of the boat being an olympic class).  The shop would separate out some hulls and decks and then assemble them based on certain buyer requests.  Mast rakes set as well.  An olympic guy here just sold his practice LP boat and in his ad he specifically states, "Mast rake set to my specification." While it's a specification it's also one that will measure in to the class build tolerances and guess what?  These guys also practice with each MKII from the 3 manufacturers because they can pick up on the differences and have different trim requirements for each one.  Considering the unbelievable majority of us will never get close the that level of skill or budget for that matter I honestly have no issue with the 1%'ers playing those games.    For any of us mortals who happen to end up with one of these boats second hand these "Specific" builds will not magically elevate our game because we don't have the bodies, (that come from living an olympic campaign) or the actual sailing skills, (that come from an olympic campaign) to take any advantage of the 3lbs lighter deck, 3lbs heavier hull and .25" rake difference, (one direction or another).  

It's just like real life.

The top 1% get all kinds of special treatment and privileges, and the other 99% of us tell ourselves it doesn't really matter because we were never going to be in the top 1% anyway.

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56 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's just like real life.

The top 1% get all kinds of special treatment and privileges, and the other 99% of us tell ourselves it doesn't really matter because we were never going to be in the top 1% anyway.

Well done!!

I'm kinda laughing that it was Robbie correcting Bill on this one.  I didn't have the heart to do it.  But come on man (Bill)...

It was never just LPE that did that.  PSA did it to.  They all did and they all still do.

And just like the change from a MKI to a MKII sail... yes your average club sailor can tell the difference in that and certainly in mast rake.  You are kinda talking out of two side of your face here ain't you @RobbieB?  I thought (?) it was you that posted in this thread how a rake change made your boat(s) (?) feel entirely different up and down wind.  Hell, (similar but not same) this is also why a permanent bend in the upper section was good (to some extent) but not allowed.

ILCAs are a land of opportunity even for the 99%. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

I thought (?) it was you that posted in this thread how a rake change made your boat(s) (?) feel entirely different up and down wind.  Hell, (similar but not same) this is also why a permanent bend in the upper section was good (to some extent) but not allowed.

I had a boat that had a rake on it at 149.  Went upwind in light/medium wind like a bandit,  but then I'd lose, (sorry- loose) it all on the DW because it was dead slow or was it me???.

My last 2 hulls have been within .25" inches of each other, (150.5ish" range) on rake and I can tell no difference between the two.  I still enjoy some speed upwind in 10-12ish my DW is very fast. Is it the rake or have I improved my DW technique?  I'm also 9 years older since the'ole 149'er.  I do put myself in a category above your "average club" sailor.  However, until I'm popping top 10 finishes in 100+ boat regattas, (and at my age those prospects diminish daily) I'm still in the other 99%  so not sure where the improvements or lack there of have come from. 

Which is my point.    

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Well done!!

I'm kinda laughing that it was Robbie correcting Bill on this one.  I didn't have the heart to do it.  But come on man (Bill)...

It was never just LPE that did that.  PSA did it to.  They all did and they all still do.

And just like the change from a MKI to a MKII sail... yes your average club sailor can tell the difference in that and certainly in mast rake.  You are kinda talking out of two side of your face here ain't you @RobbieB?  I thought (?) it was you that posted in this thread how a rake change made your boat(s) (?) feel entirely different up and down wind.  Hell, (similar but not same) this is also why a permanent bend in the upper section was good (to some extent) but not allowed.

ILCAs are a land of opportunity even for the 99%. 

OK - so I am 1% wrong on one of my points. I'll take that!

And adding water to whiskey or rum is not always better - way less than 99% of the time.  Unless you only drink with scientists. Fun...

 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

It's just like real life.

The top 1% get all kinds of special treatment and privileges, and the other 99% of us tell ourselves it doesn't really matter because we were never going to be in the top 1% anyway.

It's not that they GET special treatment.  They make it happen.  I'm sure if I thought an extra .5" inches of rake would keep my world on it's axis I could take a plane ride to go visit PSA or any other builder in the world now, (as we have 6) and measure and weigh the boats they have awaiting shipment and hand pick my "extra" special one.   I would also pay a premium for my little excursion.

Just because a sailor picks a rake and/or hull/deck weight ratio all of these boats are still class legal and will measure in at any event.  It's the 1%'ers that can actually make use of these differences.  As a class ILCA has some of the tightest OD build processes in our sport.  Like with every other manufacturing process in the world there are tolerances.

If you feel like you're a 1%'er then make it happen Captain!  

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

As a class ILCA has some of the tightest OD build processes in our sport.  

Really? Is there an independent source who can confirm this?

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30 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Really? Is there an independent source who can confirm this?

I hear there is a book called the build manual.  Having access to it is above my pay grade.

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

A friend has these large round ice cube molds.  One cube will last hours.  Other than temp what's the difference between ice and adding water to a drink?  I prefer my rum cold.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I hear there is a book called the build manual.  Having access to it is above my pay grade.

Great job of answering a different question from the one I asked. You should go into politics. 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

A friend has these large round ice cube molds.  One cube will last hours.  Other than temp what's the difference between ice and adding water to a drink?  I prefer my rum cold.

To each his or her own but few reasons for me.

1.) We like to keep good booze on the boat (sipping booze not mixing booze).  It promotes moderation in a way that slamming down a bunch of Captains and Cokes doesn't.  Happy to do either but on the boat, its good to be sober.

2.) To me, if you are going to use ice then why pay for good booze.  Its just like an ice cold beer.  Its certainly refreshing but you lose lots of the taste and aroma when its chilled like that no?  I do agree that balled ice looks cool.  Its possible that I made a nice bourbon old fashioned (or two) last night using said ice but I can neither confirm or deny...

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Really? Is there an independent source who can confirm this?

 

2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I hear there is a book called the build manual.  Having access to it is above my pay grade.

 

51 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Great job of answering a different question from the one I asked. You should go into politics. 

@tillerman - You are like on fire.  I about peed my pants laughing at Robbie's comments about build tolerance. Give the process and materials (sails and boats) and as history proves ILCA does not have the "tightest OD  build process in the sport."  More like the loosest!

 

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

A friend has these large round ice cube molds.  One cube will last hours.  Other than temp what's the difference between ice and adding water to a drink?  I prefer my rum cold.

I have those. My SO will put other stuff in the moulds apart from water, like pieces of lemon, orange, strawberries... It's wild on Gin&Tonic world these days

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I am comfortable that the new builders and refreshed commitment to the principles of one-design supported by real inspections will create much tighter controls. 
And if you want to put water or ice in your booze, go for it! 
And the latest  music entries aren’t that strong.

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

ILCA should be stricken but never Billy Joel.  Come on now...

The other three...

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52 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

@tillerman - You are like on fire.  I about peed my pants laughing at Robbie's comments about build tolerance. Give the process and materials (sails and boats) and as history proves ILCA does not have the "tightest OD  build process in the sport."  More like the loosest!

 

Sad!

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:

Great job of answering a different question from the one I asked. You should go into politics. 

So as someone who had the Manual 40+ years ago and has seen it again a year ago and is involved with other classes, inc Olymic classes, so comparing it to the other Olympic boats, it probably comes in 3rd or 4th.

Without blowing my own trumpet, 49er and FX are a step above, but so they should be, they are 40+ years younger.

Our moulds are photo-scanned and compared to a electronic file, and we use only one plug whch is massive, and we bond the boat while its still in the mould.

Last time someone actually measured the process (29er) the 2 plugs, one milled in Lymington (UK) and the other in Batam (IND) by 2 of WS best IM's (Barry Johnson (AUS) and Alister Deviers (NZL) they where only 0.5mm out).   Photo scan over the entire surface was max 0.435mm deviation.

Laser hull, I understand is very close world wide, it's assymetric, but they are all the same assymimetry!    They are not bonded in the mould, but in a bonding jig.

Laser rigs are very close, same alloy, very tight tollerance.    The Carbon tubes will be another step up again in tollerance (given they are 40 years younger, new tech).

Compare the Laser to say a Finn or a 470 is not really fair, from memory, you can have 32mm movment in a 470 (+17, -15mm tollerance before you move the base line) but 470 and Finn are not SMOD (or in the case of the Laser 7MOD).

The owners/sailors are the biggest issue, it would have been extremly cost effective to simply opt for a new symetrical plug with a perfcet fitting deck all CNC milled and within  0.5mm worldwide, but the old gurad of the Laser would have gone balistic (and do so) every time its suggested.    It would have also dropped the cost of assebly by a considerable amount if the 29er/49er are anything to go by.

Yah get what you pay for!

                  jB

 

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  There's been plenty of chatter here, and some (one in particular), questioning the class in the adherence to its one-design principle, with statements and opinions made on areas such as mast rake variances. This is to provide some background on what takes place in the approval process of a new builder.

Each of the 6 new ILCA Dinghy builders approved over the past year was required to produce a set of 10 pre-production boats. The approval process centered around an audit data sheet, which nominates over 160 individual critical characteristics defined in the Builders Manual. At the completion of each boat in the build, the builder and the ILCA technical team review the complete data set and refined parameters, such as resin and glue quantities, jig settings and processes to ensure capable outcomes. The builder must provide evidence against each line item on the audit sheet using data, photos and video. This is filed in an evidence folder and entered into the audit sheet.

What was determined through the measuring, inspection and approval process of the new builders is how remarkably consistent and within the narrow specified tolerances ALL of the builders were wrt hull weight, mast rake and other data points. Here is a sample of data collected one of the builder’s 10 boats, with all of the others recording similar data consistencies.

image.thumb.png.d9d99a767d6c4603de4b602a406424db.png

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3 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

  There's been plenty of chatter here, and some (one in particular), questioning the class in the adherence to its one-design principle, with statements and opinions made on areas such as mast rake variances. This is to provide some background on what takes place in the approval process of a new builder.

Each of the 6 new ILCA Dinghy builders approved over the past year was required to produce a set of 10 pre-production boats. The approval process centered around an audit data sheet, which nominates over 160 individual critical characteristics defined in the Builders Manual. At the completion of each boat in the build, the builder and the ILCA technical team review the complete data set and refined parameters, such as resin and glue quantities, jig settings and processes to ensure capable outcomes. The builder must provide evidence against each line item on the audit sheet using data, photos and video. This is filed in an evidence folder and entered into the audit sheet.

What was determined through the measuring, inspection and approval process of the new builders is how remarkably consistent and within the narrow specified tolerances ALL of the builders were wrt hull weight, mast rake and other data points. Here is a sample of data collected one of the builder’s 10 boats, with all of the others recording similar data consistencies.

image.thumb.png.d9d99a767d6c4603de4b602a406424db.png

Thanks Andy. Those number are quite impressive - with the exception of the weight of Boat 1, of course. (I guess it took them a couple of boats to figure out how to get the weight right.) Let's hope all the builders can keep up this kind of consistency over the coming years.

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On 2/12/2021 at 4:14 PM, Bill5 said:

I am comfortable that the new builders and refreshed commitment to the principles of one-design supported by real inspections will create much tighter controls. 

Hate to repeat myself.

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On 2/10/2021 at 6:46 PM, Bill5 said:

 

If I was looking for a new cottage boat, I would pick the Rocket in a heartbeat - way before an ILCA.

Ain't life grand?

 

Go for it Rocket Man.
 

 

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If I was looking for a new cottage boat. But I am not. I already have two boats that don’t get sailed enough.

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9 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

  There's been plenty of chatter here, and some (one in particular), questioning the class in the adherence to its one-design principle, with statements and opinions made on areas such as mast rake variances. This is to provide some background on what takes place in the approval process of a new builder.

Each of the 6 new ILCA Dinghy builders approved over the past year was required to produce a set of 10 pre-production boats. The approval process centered around an audit data sheet, which nominates over 160 individual critical characteristics defined in the Builders Manual. At the completion of each boat in the build, the builder and the ILCA technical team review the complete data set and refined parameters, such as resin and glue quantities, jig settings and processes to ensure capable outcomes. The builder must provide evidence against each line item on the audit sheet using data, photos and video. This is filed in an evidence folder and entered into the audit sheet.

What was determined through the measuring, inspection and approval process of the new builders is how remarkably consistent and within the narrow specified tolerances ALL of the builders were wrt hull weight, mast rake and other data points. Here is a sample of data collected one of the builder’s 10 boats, with all of the others recording similar data consistencies.

image.thumb.png.d9d99a767d6c4603de4b602a406424db.png

Knock it off with your positive factual data. You are destroying this thread. You should be ashamed of yourself

 

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On 2/12/2021 at 5:57 PM, chuso007 said:

I have those. My SO will put other stuff in the moulds apart from water, like pieces of lemon, orange, strawberries... It's wild on Gin&Tonic world these days

Gotta tell the wife about this. G&T's have been part of our daily anti-COVID meds. 

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On 2/10/2021 at 8:08 AM, Wess said:

Who said I am never wrong.  Having been married for over 30 years I am sure if you asked my wife she would say I am frequently wrong.  I am however never in doubt.  :P

I just happen to not be wrong about ILCA. And I am owed rum as a result.

  * I said there would be litigation - and as we just proved there was and still will be.

  * I said there would be no NA builder - and there isn't.

  * And I said that the ILCA FRAND boats would be more expensive than the SMOD ones - and they are.

Now, multiple people said I was wrong. They blathered on about competition between builders under FRAND and how this would drive ILCA boat prices down, and how there were NA builders lined up who would make ILCAs in NA.  Good people here including class leadership was even willing to bet me rum on these points.  But you are correct Bill.  I was not wrong. They were (wrong) and they owe me rum as a result. For years now they have owed me rum.  I hope they will pay up on their bet "soon" but as we have proven they also don't know what "soon" means.

Now for gosh sakes man, don't have a stroke.  Breath deeply in and out.  Spring will show up "soon"....

 

 

Just not for lemmings.  :ph34r:

A song for Wess...
 

 

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On 2/13/2021 at 5:30 PM, tillerman said:

Thanks Andy. Those number are quite impressive - with the exception of the weight of Boat 1, of course. (I guess it took them a couple of boats to figure out how to get the weight right.) Let's hope all the builders can keep up this kind of consistency over the coming years.

Do you seriously believe that the tolerances you see there - data they knew they had to submit off those builds to get approved - is what you will see in typical routine production? Come on man!  I would bet you some rum routine production is much wider such that boats built downstream be found outside those values posted. 

Geeze, man I go off grid for a bit to do some winter back-packing and I come back to find you gone nutso!!  How can I leave you in charge of the place if you gonna fall that kinda BS, LOL!  :P

On 2/15/2021 at 9:38 AM, tillerman said:

A song for Wess...
 

 

Sadly no longer with us but great musician!!

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On 2/13/2021 at 8:30 PM, Bill5 said:

Hate to repeat myself.

Saying it doesn't make it so LOL. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Do you seriously believe that the tolerances you see there - data they knew they had to submit off those builds to get approved - is what you will see in typical routine production?

Yes.

In the builder's manual, the technique is to build slightly underweight, then add a few grams of resin to bring the hull up to weight. It is very clear that the procedure was not followed by LP and resulted in large, well-documented variations - not seen in PSA/PSJ boats. Now with the new builders, who are also following the builder's manual, minimal hull weight variations will be available in the market. A definite improvement!

Thank you Wess for bringing attention to this, and highlighting one of several aspects that have improved.

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24 minutes ago, Wess said:

Do you seriously believe that the tolerances you see there - data they knew they had to submit off those builds to get approved - is what you will see in typical routine production? Come on man!  I would bet you some rum routine production is much wider such that boats built downstream be found outside those values posted. 

Oh - so it's not just ILCA you distrust. It's all the builders, too! Gotcha. 

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1 minute ago, Bill5 said:

Oh - so it's not just ILCA you distrust. It's all the builders, too! Gotcha. 

Well yea  who can you trust the  super duper super secret builders are the ones payin the super duper super secret fees to the ILCA officials so they can all go on their super duper super secret vacays.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Well yea  who can you trust the  super duper super secret builders are the ones payin the super duper super secret fees to the ILCA officials so they can all go on their super duper super secret vacays.

They have to be extra super duper super secret vacays during Covid.

Pretty sure @aroy210677 had one recently in his basement. Either that or my spy cameras are malfunctioning.

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"Do you seriously believe that the tolerances you see there - data they knew they had to submit off those builds to get approved - is what you will see in typical routine production?"

The new builders didn't "submit" data. They built 10 pre-prod. boats which where measured and audited with the ILCA Technical Officer observing, capturing photos and video (of not just the data, but also the layup, resin content, etc.), and recording the data.

"Do you seriously believe that the tolerances you see there - is what you will see in typical routine production? "I would bet you ..... that boats built downstream be found outside those values posted."

Each new builder has a clause in their contract that states (in effect) that ILCA has the right to snap inspect and cut-up any boat, and if found to be clearly illegal than ILCA has the right to immediately terminate that builder's approval. If a builder decides to cheat and sailors start noticing a performance advantage with their boats, that builder risks losing its investment and take a serious reputational hit.

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Oh - so it's not just ILCA you distrust. It's all the builders, too! Gotcha. 

Nice try but don’t be so Canadian. Go talk to any QMS or OE expert. Or just take the bet so you can owe me more rum. The ILCA and components is built using antiquated processes using antiquated materials. The routine production variation will be wider than the “tested” or “validation” batches. It’s broadly true across many many industries and products. Just because Andy likes to lie doesn’t mean you have to call for his BS. Hell maybe he will take the bet. He still owes me for the first one. Welsher that he is!  I want my rum. And generic Lasers not to is high priced POS ICA self enrichment boats!

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4 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

Some are born dicks, some achieve dickness, and some have dickness thrust upon 'em.

(apologies to Shakespeare)

I'm sure Shakespeare would have approved.

Image result for charles dickens 

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44 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

Some are born dicks, some achieve dickness, and some have dickness thrust upon 'em.

(apologies to Shakespeare)

Well then don't be a dick.  Or Canadian.  Come on man the price of ILCAs and the amount of money you guys pull off boat and gear sale since you can't get people to join is embarrassing.

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well then don't be a dick.  Or Canadian.  Come on man the price of ILCAs and the amount of money you guys pull off boat and gear sale since you can't get people to join is embarrassing.

Andy isn't a Dick or a dick. He's an Andy. Insulting all Canadians? Good one Wess. Andy is a volunteer, a sailor, who gives a fuck - and has 'invested' countless hours to the benefit of Olympic, International, regional and grass-root sailing. Your continued attacks on him do not diminish Andy's stellar contributions over many years by one iota. Rather they reflect your own misguided perspectives.

The price is fine however, cutting corners with production and having poor distribution (particularly to North America) is not. The new builders are great! ILCA is in good hands, and from what I see the exec is doing a good job. They are transparent to members - as an ILCA member, I have had my questions answered promptly and fully. (I don't believe you are a member Wess, perhaps it is time to stop bleating about the bitter taste you have, and start making lemonade.)

ILCA is run by sailors who volunteer their time - in conjunction with the builder's representatives - and last I checked they happened to be sailors too. When I checked in early 2020, and posted data here on this thread, global ILCA membership was up.

Exactly what are you looking for Wess?

Notoriety?

To be crowned King of dicks?

 

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12 hours ago, Wess said:

Well then don't be a dick.  Or Canadian.  Come on man the price of ILCAs and the amount of money you guys pull off boat and gear sale since you can't get people to join is embarrassing.

So are you saying "Not controlling or monitoring the OD build aspects of a class is ok as long as the boat is cheap?"  Do you just prefer handicap racing?

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9 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

So are you saying "Not controlling or monitoring the OD build aspects of a class is ok as long as the boat is cheap?"  Do you just prefer handicap racing?

OMG no, not saying that at all. How on earth did you get that. Assuming you are serious I will answer later.  Running between things now so...

On 2/12/2021 at 2:49 PM, RobbieB said:

I hear there is a book called the build manual.  Having access to it is above my pay grade.

And I quoted a wrong post from you up page to ask this question... your correct post is now here and my question was/is... Why should this be?  Do you think this is a good thing or should be?

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55 minutes ago, Wess said:

OMG no, not saying that at all. How on earth did you get that. Assuming you are serious I will answer later.  Running between things now so...Because you say the build manual and "measurement efforts" the class is working to control are ridiculous.  

And I quoted a wrong post from you up page to ask this question... your correct post is now here and my question was/is... Why should this be?  Do you think this is a good thing or should be? As a competitor I don't care HOW they make them.  I care that they ALL fall within what is deemed as an acceptable build tolerance range.  I believe and trust the class leadership and newly hired technical build inspectors/consultants are much more qualified to know/manage that range than I am or will ever be.

On a personal note I get really bothered by "bitchers" who only do that and bring nothing to the table in the way of ideas or volunteer work to mitigate whatever it may be that bothers them.  It's really easy to sit back and "armchair quarterback" anything.  Hell- I'd probably be an excellent NASCAR driver if someone would just put me in!  Anyway, I knew the last year+ or so would go pretty much as it did, (except for COVID) but early on I wasn't sure who would end up making the boats.  I also knew it had been a shit show for years anyway with LP's involvement, (at least in NA) so as an active member in my district and secretary for the past 3 years I decided I would not let this derail the fantastic racing opportunities this little boat provides for all ages.  The countless hours of volunteer work and "Rah-Rah" e-mails, newsletters and a few Zoom calls have paid big dividends in our district and we're stronger than we have been in 10 years.  While I wasn't sure how this would turn out I KNEW the boat would survive and I wanted to make sure D12 was well positioned to keep on trucking once the dust settled.  Unlike Bush II on the Iraq War II I don't think it's too early to claim, "Mission accomplished."

 

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32 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

On a personal note I get really bothered by "bitchers" who only do that and bring nothing to the table in the way of ideas or volunteer work to mitigate whatever it may be that bothers them.  It's really easy to sit back and "armchair quarterback" anything.  Hell- I'd probably be an excellent NASCAR driver if someone would just put me in!  Anyway, I knew the last year+ or so would go pretty much as it did, (except for COVID) but early on I wasn't sure who would end up making the boats.  I also knew it had been a shit show for years anyway with LP's involvement, (at least in NA) so as an active member in my district and secretary for the past 3 years I decided I would not let this derail the fantastic racing opportunities this little boat provides for all ages.  The countless hours of volunteer work and "Rah-Rah" e-mails, newsletters and a few Zoom calls have paid big dividends in our district and we're stronger than we have been in 10 years.  While I wasn't sure how this would turn out I KNEW the boat would survive and I wanted to make sure D12 was well positioned to keep on trucking once the dust settled.  Unlike Bush II on the Iraq War II I don't think it's too early to claim, "Mission accomplished."

Bravo. It's not an easy job to be the cheerleader for a district but it's a vital job for the success of a class.

Congratulations @RobbieB, and keep up the good work.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

 

Oh come on, "your" just trying to get on the super duper super  secret super duper gravy train to get super duper super secret  free vacays paid for by  others with the super duper super secret fees.

 

 

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OK Mr. Plaque Nazi your last was so absurd I guess you are not serious and just funnin which is fine too.  But for the record...

You said re ILCA's...

On 2/12/2021 at 12:33 PM, RobbieB said:

the tightest OD build processes in our sport.  

Tiller asked...

On 2/12/2021 at 2:20 PM, tillerman said:

Really? Is there an independent source who can confirm this?

You answered by not answering that the construction was above your pay grade.

Juilan and others then disagreed with your assessment... and Andy jumped in with data from the first 10 boats (which excluded weight of boat 1 from the standard deviation calculation).

On 2/13/2021 at 1:29 PM, aroy210677 said:

image.thumb.png.d9d99a767d6c4603de4b602a406424db.png

Tiller was impressed by the data...

On 2/13/2021 at 5:30 PM, tillerman said:

Thanks Andy. Those number are quite impressive - with the exception of the weight of Boat 1, of course. (I guess it took them a couple of boats to figure out how to get the weight right.) Let's hope all the builders can keep up this kind of consistency over the coming years.

And I said and still do...

* absolutely nothing about PHRF vs OD (when I raced it was almost all OD BTW) so don't know how you came to that conclusion

* absolutely nothing remotely like "Not controlling or monitoring the OD build aspects of a class is ok as long as the boat is cheap" so don't know where you got that from either.

What I did say and so would anyone even remotely familiar with QMS or OE...

* that the variation you see on the first 10 which are carefully built and scrutinized (and necessary to be in range to get approved) are tighter than what you will see in routine production,

* That this is less so in a highly automated process, and more so in a non-automated or process (such as the ILCA build which uses a lot of antiquated materials and processes) where you will see more special cause variation.

Now Mr Plaque Nazi Sir... I hesitate to make a double or nothing bet with you since you lost the first (years ago now) and never paid up my rum, but I will point out that I did offer to bet this as well... namely that you will see variation in routine production beyond the data Andy presented. 

Oh and finally as Julian suggested (by one means... I would suggest by another) the boat that has become the high priced ILCA could be made better and cheaper and still perform the same on the water. And that has been the gist of my argument throughout. Things could be better.  Much better.  Current ILCA leadership sucks because they are in bed with PSA, and WS, and focused almost exclusively on the elite who they support on the backs and $s of grass roots sailors who are forced to pay even when they don't join (in droves) ILCA (for good reason).

Way up the page even Bill noted that he would buy a Rocket for the cottage long before he would buy an ILCA.  I agree with Bill.  And you can't blame him.  The Rocket is made locally, is higher quality and less than half the price of an ILCA (likely about a 3rd before you get through all the upgrades both you and VWAP say are needed to race an ILCA).  It should not be so.  That low cost, accessible, simple, fun boat for the cottage used to be and still could and should be the Laser but it ain't because of the actions of class leadership. 

Oh and you never answered why the construction manual will be above your pay grade.

Now many will whine and Firefly will downvote with the ability to say anything intelligent ever (which is hysterical... there is your typical lemming).  But facts are facts and I am not going to change my opinion or go away. Its far to much fun and a nice diversion from the day to annoy the blind with facts and truth. 

Have a nice day!

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Just talked to the local dealer. He has Zim's showing up in March and selling them for CAD9600 (not sure why ILCA haven't made an announcement). The last time he could actually sell LP boats was in 2015 and they were CAD8900. This tracks almost to the dollar with inflation. And he can get as many as he wants. 

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26 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Just talked to the local dealer. He has Zim's showing up in March and selling them for CAD9600 (not sure why ILCA haven't made an announcement). The last time he could actually sell LP boats was in 2015 and they were CAD8900. This tracks almost to the dollar with inflation. And he can get as many as he wants. 

Chinese built Zims for 9600 Canadian? 

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2 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Isn't that where they are built?

That would be my assumption as well but like you said no announcement from class so wondering.  Robbie hinted at news and so its possible Zim did decide to build in NA.  What did the dealer say (about where built)?

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

That would be my assumption as well but like you said no announcement from class so wondering.  Robbie hinted at news and so its possible Zim did decide to build in NA.  What did the dealer say (about where built)?

I'll ask the dealer. But I don't have the same issues as you wrt country of origin.  Point is pricing is not up.

Edited by Bill5
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15 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I'll ask the dealer. But I don't have the same issues as you wrt country of origin.  Point is pricing is not up.

Well we appear to have a different definition of up LOL.  Guess that "is" one of those words like "soon" LOL.  Regardless they argued prices would come down due to FRAND which I thought it might actually if Chinese built.   Curious too how well equipped the boat is for 9600.  One of the other shames about what has happened in the class is the boat you could sail fine at the cottage you can't successfully race even at the club level (without all the various and expensive upgrades). 

Well equipped (upgraded) and landed at your door for 9600 (that is mid 7s at todays exchange rate) ain't bad compared to the Ovi.  But yea, if its an EU builder vs Chinese I would buy the EU boat.

EDIT to add - just saw your post above.  Missing a dolly but has some upgrades; seems to be undercutting the others by quite a bit.

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9 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I don't know who Bill's local dealer is but marine outfitters.ca have ILCAs manufactured by Qingdao Zou Inter Marine Co., Ltd. listed for $9,599 Canadian on their website.

2030749218_ScreenShot2021-02-17at1_45_23PM.thumb.png.bd9407f74c17698a0b324ea04583593b.png

That seems less well equipped compared to what Bill quoted a few up which was the "carbon" version.  This one at 9600 seems pretty stripped in comparison.  Actually wondering if that comes with a sail.  All the rigs at same price.

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Marine Outfitters are offering two options for ILCAs from China.156240823_ScreenShot2021-02-17at1_45_23PM.thumb.png.eb836808c730bafd3e4fd875c231d92e.png

286650555_ScreenShot2021-02-17at1_59_48PM.thumb.png.69cc5378e49a1dcadc78b3d835bcb91e.png

Hmmm.  Wondering if @Bill5's boat is actually 10,300 (well 10,600 with CC), and lacks sails.  They gotta include the sails at that price right??

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FFS. The $9,600 was from my local dealer for the Classicversion. This would be about the same as the LP boats he used to sell at about the same price. Got it?

I then cut a paste something from Marine Outfitters simply to show they are speaking of the boat they are selling as being made in China, which I am going to confirm with my dealer. Then you two started going all over the place. 

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Right now, dealers are being appointed by builders, and more stocks are starting to be procured in North America. Multiple ILCA builders/dealers are now active in the NA market.

Everything has been slowed down by the pandemic, though the ILCA dinghy is showing classic signs of being on the rise in the NA market.

I take the long view. It is likely that in this early period, full prices will be the norm. As supply capacity exceeds demand in a more comprehensive way, I expect dealers (and builders) will get price competitive with each other. This may take a while for a variety of reasons, and as mentioned everything has been slowed down by the pandemic.

---

In the mean-time, the Zim boats are being made in China.

@aroy210677 - has ILCA approved Zim for production yet? If yes, the official announcement must be close (though apologies if I have missed it).

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

FFS

LOL, you post the specs for one boat, and the price for another (which wasn't even the full price) and then start FFS-ing when it comes to light?!!?  Yea you belong in ILCA for sure. 

Come on man...  why is it so hard for you folks to just tell the truth?

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL, you post the specs for one boat, and the price for another (which wasn't even the full price) and then start FFS-ing when it comes to light?!!?  Yea you belong in ILCA for sure. 

Come on man...  why is it so hard for you folks to just tell the truth?

Well, the truth is I made a mistake. I cut and paste the wrong descriptor from Marine Outfitters website - I just intended to show the manufacturing location. I feel terrible. I truly apologize for any inconvenience or misunderstanding. No intention to mislead. I will give myself 40 lashes with a cat of nine tails. 

To restate. The Classic is pretty much the same as the LP boat from 5 years ago. No carbon top section. And the price is comparable when one considers inflation. So no grossly inflated prices because of ILCA, as you have suggested, Wess. But we do have new boats because of ILCA. Thanks, ILCA. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Well, the truth is I made a mistake. I cut and paste the wrong descriptor from Marine Outfitters website - I just intended to show the manufacturing location. I feel terrible. I truly apologize for any inconvenience or misunderstanding. No intention to mislead. I will give myself 40 lashes with a cat of nine tails. 

To restate. The Classic is pretty much the same as the LP boat from 5 years ago. No carbon top section. And the price is comparable when one considers inflation. So no grossly inflated prices because of ILCA, as you have suggested, Wess. But we do have new boats because of ILCA. Thanks, ILCA. 

 

Let Me Inquire 

Why are you wasting time with the socks and trolls. Best to not bother reading their nonsense. 

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8 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I will give myself 40 lashes with a cat of nine tails.

That seems extreme; maybe just have a rum drink instead.  :)

1 minute ago, VWAP said:

Let Me Inquire 

Why are you wasting time with the socks and trolls. Best to not bother reading their nonsense. 

But yet here you are again.  I love reading your stuff.  When you posted it was necessary for serious Laser racers to take 2 new sails - 1 from each manufacturer - to any ILCA regatta I thought you were especially insightful.  I am curious... should they take a Mk1 and Mk2 sail of each mfg also?  Because you know that might start to get really expensive... but hey... whatever the elite needs and junior's parents can afford right?

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1 minute ago, VWAP said:

Let Me Inquire 

Why are you wasting time with the socks and trolls. Best to not bother reading their nonsense. 

Doesn't take much time. And good exercise for dealing with difficult people. 

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2 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Doesn't take much time. And good exercise for dealing with difficult people. 

Let Me Inquire

difficult ?  You might  consider expanding your vocabulary

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7 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Let Me Inquire

difficult ?  You might  consider expanding your vocabulary

I thought of using dickheads, assholes, motherfuckers, sons-of-bitches or jerk offs. But I wanted to keep it clean. 

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Right now, dealers are being appointed by builders, and more stocks are starting to be procured in North America. Multiple ILCA builders/dealers are now active in the NA market.

Everything has been slowed down by the pandemic, though the ILCA dinghy is showing classic signs of being on the rise in the NA market.

I take the long view. It is likely that in this early period, full prices will be the norm. As supply capacity exceeds demand in a more comprehensive way, I expect dealers (and builders) will get price competitive with each other. This may take a while for a variety of reasons, and as mentioned everything has been slowed down by the pandemic.

---

In the mean-time, the Zim boats are being made in China.

@aroy210677 - has ILCA approved Zim for production yet? If yes, the official announcement must be close (though apologies if I have missed it).

Yes, they're made in China and Zou was approved quite recently. Announcement a little late in being issued, but I understand it will go out soon. E6E wanted their announcement held back just a bit, but it will also go out very soon.

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Two more! Couldn't find much online about E6E, other than this:

นำเข้า ส่งออก ซื้อมาขายไป ออกแบบ ผลิต ซ่อมแซม ดัดแปลงชิ้นส่วน เรือ รถยนต์ อากาศยาน และ แบ่งบรรจุชิ้นส่วนที่เกี่ยวข้อง

Any questions? 

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46 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Import, export, buy, sell, design, manufacture, repair, modify parts for ships, cars, aircraft and related parts packing.

 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Two more! Couldn't find much online about E6E, other than this:

นำเข้า ส่งออก ซื้อมาขายไป ออกแบบ ผลิต ซ่อมแซม ดัดแปลงชิ้นส่วน เรือ รถยนต์ อากาศยาน และ แบ่งบรรจุชิ้นส่วนที่เกี่ยวข้อง

Any questions? 

Statement made by E6E end 2020

4C3D2C62-3A87-450C-8808-4CC7789E158F.png

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18 hours ago, Wess said:

That would be my assumption as well but like you said no announcement from class so wondering.  Robbie hinted at news and so its possible Zim did decide to build in NA.  What did the dealer say (about where built)?

They are from China.  They also had to pass the pre-build authorization having 10 boats built and cut up.  They will also be subjected to the same build standards and pop up inspections as the other builders.  I believe ZIM is also selling Ovington's.  So, there could be a few of them as well.

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On 3/28/2019 at 7:08 AM, Wess said:

Oh Wess- how we forget....Remember this?  Your post #1.  The sky was falling because LP had been kicked to the curb.  "What a shame it came to this!"

Your arguments and objections have evolved as ILCA has methodically picked off each one.  Now you're down to subjective ponderings and simple opinions about the evil empire.

See you later.  I'm headed back to the death star. 

 

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