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ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder


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10 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I can’t be the only one hearing rumours of a “fast” builder already.

According to a bunch of parents at the Youth Worlds last year, the PSA boats were faster than the LPs. No chance their kids could have been less skilled.

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

According to a bunch of parents at the Youth Worlds last year, the PSA boats were faster than the LPs. No chance their kids could have been less skilled.

We've got a fast guy in our fleet sailing an older late 90's vanguard hull.  My 2001 v hull seems plenty fast to me as I'm always hanging with and sometimes in front of 2015'ish LP hulls.  Anyway, our 90's guy has an Ovi hull on order so it will be interesting to see how it improves his game when it gets here.

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17 hours ago, Wess said:

Go buy a composite bottom section and take good care of it! Its just (more) money.  And if I recall correctly this is another one of the parts that ILCA gets a cut off the top of so you should like that no?

Those are radial only, (for now).  We'll see if they spread across the fleets.

After yesterday that's all ya got?

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23 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Those are radial only, (for now).  We'll see if they spread across the fleets.

After yesterday that's all ya got?

Gosh no but there is this thing called a job LOL.  Need money to buy all this expensive ILCA stuff that you guy keep picking my pocket with.  :P

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Gosh no but there is this thing called a job LOL.  Need money to buy all this expensive ILCA stuff that you guy keep picking my pocket with.  :P

If the minimum wage goes up to $15, the difference should help you manage after a couple weeks.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Gosh no but there is this thing called a job LOL.  Need money to buy all this expensive ILCA stuff that you guy keep picking my pocket with.  :P

Luuuuuke.  I am your faaaaather!!

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42 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

If the minimum wage goes up to $15, the difference should help you manage after a couple weeks.

Not even close.  Would need a rich Daddy to afford to sail an ILCA! 

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41 minutes ago, Wess said:

Not even close.  Would need a rich Daddy to afford to sail an ILCA! 

Yep, if 2.5% on replacement parts is going to break the bank, throw in the towel. 

See the source image

 

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49 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

100?

No.

Its 325.00 plus tax and shipping for the ILCA vang upgrade.

So you can break your ILCA mast and buy a new one of those...

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On 2/19/2021 at 3:16 PM, tillerman said:

Just 5 boats a year.  How much do these awesome beasts cost new?  Assuming, the figure is without the carbon mast and sail.

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2 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Just 5 boats a year.  How much do these awesome beasts cost new?  Assuming, the figure is without the carbon mast and sail.

Yeah. Different world, right? Just thought it was an interesting perspective of how another class is dealing with builder issues. 

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

carbon mast 

$ 5,175.00

https://www.dinghyracingusa.com/index.php?id_category=30&controller=category

 

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-finn-is-affordable-according-to.html

And sailors typically spend fortunes trying various combinations of masts and sails. CA$ 50,000 may be a more realistic budget!

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37 minutes ago, VWAP said:

$ 5,175.00

https://www.dinghyracingusa.com/index.php?id_category=30&controller=category

 

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-finn-is-affordable-according-to.html

And sailors typically spend fortunes trying various combinations of masts and sails. CA$ 50,000 may be a more realistic budget!

And therein lies the problem.  This is the path ILCA is on.

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42 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

#9849

After ILCA fees, taxes, and shipping that is about what you would pay to get a basic ILCA delivered to your door.

 

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@Wess I just noticed your cute little comment at the bottom of your entries. Is that new? Charming.  I have decided to set up an association along the same lines as the Laser Class. Same price (free) and same benefits (none). And to make it easy for anybody to join, you don't even need to sign up! Can I count you in? Actually - you don't even have to tell me. Anybody that has a Laser or ILCA, new or used, is hereby a member. But if you don't have one, you can't join. Sorry - it's in the bylaws.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

@Wess I just noticed your cute little comment at the bottom of your entries. Is that new? Charming.  I have decided to set up an association along the same lines as the Laser Class. Same price (free) and same benefits (none). And to make it easy for anybody to join, you don't even need to sign up! Can I count you in? Actually - you don't even have to tell me. Anybody that has a Laser or ILCA, new or used, is hereby a member. But if you don't have one, you can't join. Sorry - it's in the bylaws.

I have a Laser.
Thanks for adding me to your class.  
I hereby resign as I don't want to be a member of any class that would accept me as a member.

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5 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I have a Laser.
Thanks for adding me to your class.  
I hereby resign as I don't want to be a member of any class that would accept me as a member.

Request for resignation denied. You have to sell your Laser. Wess might be looking for one. 

EDIT: Let me check - I might be able to downgrade you to an associate membership. But don't expect the same lack of benefits. 

Edited by Bill5
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5 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Request for resignation denied. You have to sell your Laser. Wess might be looking for one. 

EDIT: Let me check - I might be able to downgrade you to an associate membership. But don't expect the same lack of benefits. 

Sell my Laser????  

Why?  

How am I going to "Cheat the Nursing Home. Die on your Laser" if I don't have a Laser?

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On 2/19/2021 at 7:25 AM, RobbieB said:

We've got a fast guy in our fleet sailing an older late 90's vanguard hull.  My 2001 v hull seems plenty fast to me as I'm always hanging with and sometimes in front of 2015'ish LP hulls.  Anyway, our 90's guy has an Ovi hull on order so it will be interesting to see how it improves his game when it gets here.

Back when I used to sail Lasers, I know my particular Vanguard hull was definitely slower than the rest of the fleet. Of course, it was a different hull every week because we rotated amongst the fleet of boats, but I’m pretty sure mine was the slowest every week!  It obviously had nothing to do with my ability to ruin every good race by going swimming after a blown jibe. 

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Back when I used to sail Lasers, I know my particular Vanguard hull was definitely slower than the rest of the fleet. Of course, it was a different hull every week because we rotated amongst the fleet of boats, but I’m pretty sure mine was the slowest every week!  It obviously had nothing to do with my ability to ruin every good race by going swimming after a blown jibe. 

Pretty sure for years I had the same one. In NZ. Made by Performance Sailcraft.

I was OK with jibing, it was getting my PFD caught on the boom when taking that helped me become more proficient at swimming!

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8 hours ago, Wess said:

And therein lies the problem.  This is the path ILCA is on.

It's interesting you should say that. Before the changes to the sail and masts, if you were a serious Laser sailor (Olympic level), you would buy 6 sails at a time, plus 2/3 complete masts. From that collection, you would hope to find one regatta quality sail and 2 training sails. The other 3 sails were "junk", usually sold off to club sailors who cannot tell the difference. With the masts, you hopes to find one good top and bottom section that matched the regatta sail. Then repeat this whole process, probably twice a year. The new masts and sail are meant to reduce the variation, but I have no idea whether it has worked in practice. 

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49 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Pretty sure for years I had the same one. In NZ. Made by Performance Sailcraft.

I was OK with jibing, it was getting my PFD caught on the boom when taking that helped me become more proficient at swimming!

We obviously had similar shit boats and not the ones given to the 1%’ers. It’s the only logical explanation. 

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4 minutes ago, Monkey said:

We obviously had similar shit boats and not the ones given to the 1%’ers. It’s the only logical explanation. 

One of my boats was a top boat - and thousands of hours later it became my boat. :) 

 

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Just now, Bruce Hudson said:

One of my boats was a top boat - and thousands of hours later it became my boat. :) 

 

I’ve had a similar experience in reverse with the other ILCA. My dad was always an enthusiastic, but total hack of a racing sailor. He sold his Lightning because it was a “slow hull.”  The next owner went on to dominate at a national level with that boat before getting a new one. It wasn’t the boat…

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1 hour ago, SimonN said:

It's interesting you should say that. Before the changes to the sail and masts, if you were a serious Laser sailor (Olympic level), you would buy 6 sails at a time, plus 2/3 complete masts. From that collection, you would hope to find one regatta quality sail and 2 training sails. The other 3 sails were "junk", usually sold off to club sailors who cannot tell the difference. With the masts, you hopes to find one good top and bottom section that matched the regatta sail. Then repeat this whole process, probably twice a year. The new masts and sail are meant to reduce the variation, but I have no idea whether it has worked in practice. 

No it didn't change. It got worse with FRAND. And this is good how exactly?

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9 hours ago, Wess said:

No it didn't change. It got worse with FRAND. And this is good how exactly?

No change? The new sails with thicker sailcloth and composite masts last longer for sure. That is change.

Boats being available in North America is a change by all accounts for the better.

Of course, if a system is unfair, unreasonable, and discriminatory - then according to Wess it is good? 

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49 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Has not.

LOL, OK then lets just stick with post FRAND facts:

1.) The boats are more expensive.

2.) ILCA collects more and higher fees on each boat (as does WS and PSA).

3.) Despite ILCA saying there would be a NA builder, there is no NA builder.

Those are 3 simple undisputed facts.  And from my perspective that is worse. The shame of it all is... it could (and should) have gotten better.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

LOL, OK then lets just stick with post FRAND facts:

1.) The boats are more expensive. - I thought your previous point was the multiple rig/multiple sails arms race was worse that ever.  BTW- the base boats, (which are the same as the LP boats were) are not more expensive.  They are in the $7k range just as the LP boats were.

2.) ILCA collects more and higher fees on each boat (as does WS and PSA). - That's simply due to the Olympics. But, I'm fair and will give you that "yes" if you are sailing a boat that is an active "Olympic class" boat it's likely to have some costs associated with that.

3.) Despite ILCA saying there would be a NA builder, there is no NA builder. - At the time ZIM, (which are all the guys from Vanguard) had verbally committed to be an NA builder.  I was at a US Sailing Regional symposium where they stood up in a meeting and made an announcement they would be.  However, I did suspect they'd use their China branch for building as that makes the best business sense.  Blaming ILCA for there being no NA builder is like blaming US farmers for not mass growing bananas.

Those are 3 simple undisputed facts.  And from my perspective that is worse. The shame of it all is... it could (and should) have gotten better. Only #2 is an undisputed fact.  However, the blame needs to be on WS creating the FRAND rule for Olympic class boats.  Of course ILCA decided to stay in the Olympics.

So my rebuttals are above, but here's my question for you:

HOW- could things have gotten better than they were before the ILCA divorce from LP?   I'm certain you can't argue leaving LP in as the major supplier would have been better.

You can argue staying out of the Olympics would have kept boat prices down, but I'd argue it also would have shut down demand.  Remember- this boat has been in the Olympics since 1996, (radials came a cycle or two later) and since then the Jr sailing of this boat exploded.  Prior to that the laser standard rig was a post Jr sailing OD single handed dingy for men after they graduated college and got a career going.  As such that space has only become more crowded and I'd argue the Laser would have been passed over for something newer/better, (for those with the cash) back in the late 90's had it never become an Olympic boat and it would have never developed the Jr following it has today.

Laser would have gone the way of the Force 5, (a better boat in my opinion).  Is that what you would have preferred or do you think the class would have magically held onto the popularity it had in the late 70's to late 80's, (as much of sailing did actually before it as a whole fell off the cliff)?

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7 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

So my rebuttals are above, but here's my question for you:

HOW- could things have gotten better than they were before the ILCA divorce from LP?   I'm certain you can't argue leaving LP in as the major supplier would have been better.

You can argue staying out of the Olympics would have kept boat prices down, but I'd argue it also would have shut down demand.  Remember- this boat has been in the Olympics since 1996, (radials came a cycle or two later) and since then the Jr sailing of this boat exploded.  Prior to that the laser standard rig was a post Jr sailing OD single handed dingy for men after they graduated college and got a career going.  As such that space has only become more crowded and I'd argue the Laser would have been passed over for something newer/better, (for those with the cash) back in the late 90's had it never become an Olympic boat and it would have never developed the Jr following it has today.

Laser would have gone the way of the Force 5, (a better boat in my opinion).  Is that what you would have preferred or do you think the class would have magically held onto the popularity it had in the late 70's to late 80's, (as much of sailing did actually before it as a whole fell off the cliff)?

Robbie - Honestly there is so much there its kinda hard to know where to begin to answer.  Can try to answer the how question but need you to answer one first as its related.  A while back you said the construction manual was above your pay grade.  I asked an honest question that you never answered.  Why is that and do you think its a good thing?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

LOL, OK then lets just stick with post FRAND facts:

1.) The boats are more expensive.

Taxes will be reduced

2.) ILCA collects more and higher fees on each boat (as does WS and PSA).

The swamp will be drained

3.) Despite ILCA saying there would be a NA builder, there is no NA builder.

There will be an amazing new healthcare plan

Those are 3 simple undisputed facts.  And from my perspective that is worse. The shame of it all is... it could (and should) have gotten better.

Wess seems to answer where extreme MAGA fans go once their beloved leader loses the election.

30 minutes ago, Wess said:

Robbie - Honestly there is so much there its kinda hard to know where to begin to answer.  Can try to answer the how question but need you to answer one first as its related.  A while back you said the construction manual was above your pay grade.  I asked an honest question that you never answered.  Why is that and do you think its a good thing?

So much winning!

So many alternate facts!!

(PS: Robbie answered. Wess may consider Robbie's answer was not to his satisfaction and therefore did not count? Another 'alternate fact'??)

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

  I asked an honest question that you never answered.  Why is that and do you think its a good thing?

I did answer that.  I'll repeat myself, "Because I didn't pay to have access to it so I can become an ILCA approved builder."   And again, "Do you think Porsche hands out the build specifications on their engines to just anyone?"

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15 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I did answer that.  I'll repeat myself, "Because I didn't pay to have access to it so I can become an ILCA approved builder."   And again, "Do you think Porsche hands out the build specifications on their engines to just anyone?"

Well you certainly got a laugh by comparing the Porsche engine to an ILCA.  ILCAs are getting that expensive!  And yes I suspect a mechanic can indeed get the specs for a Porsche engine.  But you still haven't answered if you think its a good thing (for the class)?

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I did answer that.  I'll repeat myself, "Because I didn't pay to have access to it so I can become an ILCA approved builder."   And again, "Do you think Porsche hands out the build specifications on their engines to just anyone?"


374329670_ScreenShot2021-02-23at12_41_26PM.thumb.png.17eb51c3274018fcda6cc847f75296bf.png

https://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Modify-Porsche-Engines-1965-1989/dp/0760310874/ref=asc_df_0760310874/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312089812503&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12583660844873230232&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002223&hvtargid=pla-562625010613&psc=1

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

LOL, OK then lets just stick with post FRAND facts:

1.) The boats are more expensive.

2.) ILCA collects more and higher fees on each boat (as does WS and PSA).

3.) Despite ILCA saying there would be a NA builder, there is no NA builder.

Those are 3 simple undisputed facts.  And from my perspective that is worse. The shame of it all is... it could (and should) have gotten better.

Gee, these are new. Why haven't you put these notions forward until now? 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

 But you still haven't answered if you think its a good thing (for the class)?

Just a couple of posts ago:

"You can argue staying out of the Olympics would have kept boat prices down, but I'd argue it also would have shut down demand.  Remember- this boat has been in the Olympics since 1996, (radials came a cycle or two later) and since then the Jr sailing of this boat exploded.  Prior to that the laser standard rig was a post Jr sailing OD single handed dingy for men after they graduated college and got a career going.  As such that space has only become more crowded and I'd argue the Laser would have been passed over for something newer/better, (for those with the cash) back in the late 90's had it never become an Olympic boat and it would have never developed the Jr following it has today."

So- YES.  I feel everything that has happened in the past year and a half have been GREAT for the class.  Not just good.  More builders, better builders, better supply, development of better gear.  And STILL the least expensive Olympic class sail boat AND the least expensive and largest class single handed dingy world wide. 

 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

I have a good friend who used to sail.  He also owned his own auto shop for years.  He had to PAY manufacturers every year for access to annual updates on new model changes.  He paid a lot for that access. #abovemypaygrade

Of course when those go out of production then anyone can buy the book.  

The ILCA is still in production and build info is proprietary.  Not sure why that's a problem for anyone.

 

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@RobbieB - You are misunderstanding the question.  Do you think its a good thing that the construction manual is not public?

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

@RobbieB - You are misunderstanding the question.  Do you think its a good thing that the construction manual is not public?

My answer to that question (Robbie will have his own opinion doubtless) is "On balance Yes"

I dont think it is a huge problem, if the build manual got into public hands, but probably easier to administer and keep up to date with a master version if it resided with the class.  I doubt there is any secret sauce in the build manual, but what there is belongs to the class not the public.

1. I suspect that 99.999% of Laser sailors are not interested in the construction details. They want to know that (a) The boats are as close as possible, all the same (b) Built to a reasonable standard reflecting costs constraints and not making existing boats uncompetitive.

2. Most Laser Sailors trust their duly elected officials to represent their interests

If class decided to publish it, it would be a big yawn for 90% but would probably fill another 100 pages of comment on this thread .For this reason alone, I think it is a good thing that it is not public.  This thread would become interminable.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

My answer to that question (Robbie will have his own opinion doubtless) is "On balance Yes"

I dont think it is a huge problem, if the build manual got into public hands, but probably easier to administer and keep up to date with a master version if it resided with the class.  I doubt there is any secret sauce in the build manual, but what there is belongs to the class not the public.

1. I suspect that 99.999% of Laser sailors are not interested in the construction details. They want to know that (a) The boats are as close as possible, all the same (b) Built to a reasonable standard reflecting costs constraints and not making existing boats uncompetitive.

2. Most Laser Sailors trust their duly elected officials to represent their interests

If class decided to publish it, it would be a big yawn for 90% but would probably fill another 100 pages of comment on this thread .For this reason alone, I think it is a good thing that it is not public.  This thread would become interminable.

 

 

Agree with this 100%. Especially: For this reason alone, I think it is a good thing that it is not public.  This thread would become interminable.

Brilliant.

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48 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

1. I suspect that 99.999% of Laser sailors are not interested in the construction details. They want to know that (a) The boats are as close as possible, all the same (b) Built to a reasonable standard reflecting costs constraints and not making existing boats uncompetitive.

Robbie was pretty clear about exactly that the first time he answered the question (Robbie in red, Wess in black):

On 2/18/2021 at 4:00 AM, RobbieB said:

And I quoted a wrong post from you up page to ask this question... your correct post is now here and my question was/is... Why should this be?  Do you think this is a good thing or should be? As a competitor I don't care HOW they make them.  I care that they ALL fall within what is deemed as an acceptable build tolerance range.  I believe and trust the class leadership and newly hired technical build inspectors/consultants are much more qualified to know/manage that range than I am or will ever be.

Translation for Wess. Robbie thinks it is a good thing. :)

We've been at least SIX DAYS on this question - at least since Robbie first answered it.

And the topic in question has previously been addressed by Robbie. So either Wess forgot or didn't read what Robbie wrote, or was (is) trolling. 

----

48 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

If class decided to publish it, it would be a big yawn for 90% but would probably fill another 100 pages of comment on this thread .For this reason alone, I think it is a good thing that it is not public.  This thread would become interminable.

...and it isn't already?

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20 hours ago, Wess said:

No it didn't change. It got worse with FRAND. And this is good how exactly?

This doesn't answer the question. What I was asking is whether the new sail and mast section has improved consistency and therefore made it cheaper for the top sailors, and the answer is yes.

9 hours ago, Wess said:

LOL, OK then lets just stick with post FRAND facts:

1.) The boats are more expensive.

2.) ILCA collects more and higher fees on each boat (as does WS and PSA).

3.) Despite ILCA saying there would be a NA builder, there is no NA builder.

Those are 3 simple undisputed facts.  And from my perspective that is worse. The shame of it all is... it could (and should) have gotten better.

1. If you compare the cost of an LPE boat before FRAND and what you have to pay now, the cost increase is isn't worth talking about. Only somebody trying to distort the facts would focus on this. For NA, it seems you want to compare the price of boats that were not available at that price with the cost of boats that you can actually buy. 

2. So what? More than ever, because of new builders, the class needs to monitor production. That costs. Why shouldn't a rights holder be compensated for giving up those rights. If you had exclusive rights to a market for a product, are you saying you would be stupid enough to give that right away to other commercial organisations without compensation? What really counts is whether ILCA and WS is getting rich off this and the answer is that they are not. Maybe the rights holders are making am profit, but that is totally reasonable. The other thing is whether it has really added to the final price customers pay and again, compared with before FRAND, the answer is that it is immaterial.

3. It's not ILCA fault that no suitable builder has, so far, stepped up. What they have achieved is supply. Before the new builders were brought in, getting boats and parts in NA was a complete nightmare. The NA market is now being served and is in a far better position than it was before. Which is better? No boats being built in NA and none being available, or no boats being built in NA and good availability?

Consider the situation if nothing had been done. The Laser would have lost it's Olympic status, meaning that many emerging countries would have ceased to buy new and second hand boats and overall, the class would potentially been contracting all round the world because it would have been replaced for most, if not all WS related events (no longer youth boat etc). NA (and other markets) would still have serious supply issues. Nobody would know if boats from certain builders complied with the construction manual because of continued refusal to be inspected. The builders would have continued to fight each other and not worked together towards "growing the game", which is now happening with all the builders.

For me, even if there was an increase in costs, it seems like a small price to pay for global supply, consistency of product, better overall monitoring and, most important, security of being "the game" internationally for youth, open and seniors single handed sailing. Of course, you might prefer LPE dictating everything, refusing to work with the association, providing poor customer service and supply to some major markets, doing whatever they wanted with construction and overall, being obstructive and non cooperative towards all other parties in "the game".

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

LOL the excuses are flowing like wine...

Wess, do you think that it would be a good thing for you personally if the manual was public? What benefit would you gain from a public manual?

 

 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

do you think that it would be a good thing for you personally if the manual was public? What benefit would you gain from a public manual?

 

 

Let Me Inquire.  On never mind 

4 hours ago, SimonN said:

This doesn't answer the question. What I was asking is whether the new sail and mast section has improved consistency and therefore made it cheaper for the top sailors, and the answer is yes.

1. If you compare the cost of an LPE boat before FRAND and what you have to pay now, the cost increase is isn't worth talking about. Only somebody trying to distort the facts would focus on this. For NA, it seems you want to compare the price of boats that were not available at that price with the cost of boats that you can actually buy. 

2. So what? More than ever, because of new builders, the class needs to monitor production. That costs. Why shouldn't a rights holder be compensated for giving up those rights. If you had exclusive rights to a market for a product, are you saying you would be stupid enough to give that right away to other commercial organisations without compensation? What really counts is whether ILCA and WS is getting rich off this and the answer is that they are not. Maybe the rights holders are making am profit, but that is totally reasonable. The other thing is whether it has really added to the final price customers pay and again, compared with before FRAND, the answer is that it is immaterial.

3. It's not ILCA fault that no suitable builder has, so far, stepped up. What they have achieved is supply. Before the new builders were brought in, getting boats and parts in NA was a complete nightmare. The NA market is now being served and is in a far better position than it was before. Which is better? No boats being built in NA and none being available, or no boats being built in NA and good availability?

Consider the situation if nothing had been done. The Laser would have lost it's Olympic status, meaning that many emerging countries would have ceased to buy new and second hand boats and overall, the class would potentially been contracting all round the world because it would have been replaced for most, if not all WS related events (no longer youth boat etc). NA (and other markets) would still have serious supply issues. Nobody would know if boats from certain builders complied with the construction manual because of continued refusal to be inspected. The builders would have continued to fight each other and not worked together towards "growing the game", which is now happening with all the builders.

For me, even if there was an increase in costs, it seems like a small price to pay for global supply, consistency of product, better overall monitoring and, most important, security of being "the game" internationally for youth, open and seniors single handed sailing. Of course, you might prefer LPE dictating everything, refusing to work with the association, providing poor customer service and supply to some major markets, doing whatever they wanted with construction and overall, being obstructive and non cooperative towards all other parties in "the game".

OMG,OMG,OMG, knock it off with a factual correct , positive post.  

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

#9888

You canntt blame me Gouv.  Robbie asked me a question (how could things have gotten better) in 9868 that I said I would answer and just needed one answer from him (trying to find some common or middle ground) asking in 9869 (and again in 9879 because the question was avoided) if he thinks its a good thing the construction manual isn't made public by the class.  Since then you guys added about 20 posts and almost a quarter of a page with no answer to that question other than to make it public would add posts/pages (from Eye).  So... uh.... :wacko:

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Then why do the vast majority of Laser sailors... even Laser racers... not join ILCA?

And you still didn't answer the first question re the construction manual.  Thought there might actually be common ground there.  Or not...

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

You canntt blame me Gouv.  Robbie asked me a question (how could things have gotten better) in 9868 that I said I would answer and just needed one answer from him (trying to find some common or middle ground) asking in 9869 (and again in 9879 because the question was avoided) if he thinks its a good thing the construction manual isn't made public by the class.  Since then you guys added about 20 posts and almost a quarter of a page with no answer to that question other than to make it public would add posts/pages (from Eye).  So... uh.... :wacko:

Read all of Eye’s posts. She gave three good reasons and had three “likes” including Robbie’s. Eye then asked you why you thought it was a good idea to make it public - again with three “likes”. You ignored that question. 
So...uh...:wacko:

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Then why do the vast majority of Laser sailors... even Laser racers... not join ILCA?

And you still didn't answer the first question re the construction manual.  Thought there might actually be common ground there.  Or not...

That's the way it's always been.  There's 220,000 friggin boats out there.  How may J22 or J24 are class members.  There's over 5,000 24's.  How many Flying Scott members are class members, (also over 5,000 boats)?

Anyway, a local YC decided to ditch their Open Bic program for 5 brand new ILCA 4.7 rigs arriving on March 18th.  Turns out the Bic's have parts inventory issues and don't hold up so well to the rigors of Jr Sailing programs.  Also, the ILCA path is becoming pretty clear now in the Southeast US.

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I am pretty sure Robbie can speak for himself.  Or chose to duck the question as he has.

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Speaking of ducking questions, of which experience has shown me you excel, are you going to answer Eyesailor’s?

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14 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Wess, do you think that it would be a good thing for you personally if the manual was public? What benefit would you gain from a public manual?

 

 

@Wess   On the subject of ducking the question and waiting for answers. Still waiting for your answer to my question.

Wess, Have your revealed why it would be a good thing for you personally if the manual was public? Is there some kind of benefit you will gain from a public manual ? 

Thkx

 

1 hour ago, Wess said:

I am pretty sure Robbie can speak for himself.  Or chose to duck the question as he has.

1 hour ago, Wess said:

And he still didn't answer the first question

 

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27 minutes ago, torrid said:

Been sailing lasers for over 30 years.  I can't think of a single instance where I needed the builder's construction manual.  I must be doing something wrong.

OMG, I cannot think how you have had any fun at all without access to the construction manual.  :)

Surely there must have been one Sunday afternoon, when you sat at the bar thinking to yourself "This sport would be so much better if I could get hold of that construction manual".

But fear not , Wess is going to tell us what he would do if he had a copy of the manual........but thus far I hear crickets.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

I am pretty sure Robbie can speak for himself.  Or chose to duck the question as he has.

I think someone needs to look in the mirror.

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That is the best an ILCA District Rep has as an answer to why the construction manual should not be public?

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is the best an ILCA District Rep has as an answer to why the construction manual should not be public?

Wess what is your answer to my respectfully phrased question asking you what your personal interest is in having the construction manual made public?

The class manual has been private for 50+ years and available to class association for the latter half of that. Recently you have a desire that it is made public.  My question honestly has zero hidden agenda.  I am curious what you see as the benefits ?

Seems fair question to ask. 

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Having access to the construction manual is about as useful as having access to Eric Faust’s dental records. Especially for us grass roots sailors. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

That is the best an ILCA District Rep has as an answer to why the construction manual should not be public?

Yeah- they should pay me more I guess....

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

You guys cracK me up. Happy to have a serious and honest conversation. But that is a 2 way street. It was a simple question I asked Robbie. What I got back was typical ILCA evasion. OK, whatever. Neither of us owes the other a serious discussion. So onward we go. 

This thread still going.

Wess, how are you doing? We date back to lawn mower days :)

 

The question before us pertains to making public the construction manual.  Wearing my legal(retired) hat I can think of several reasons why ILCA doesnt want to put the construction manual in the public domain, not least of which they would relinquish certain remedies if an illicit builder emerged. However those obvious downsides could be overcome if the benefit was large enough.

The question to me is more, why would you want ILCA to release the build manual into the public domain? What is the upside?

If I understood the upside or objective behind releasing the build manual then my comment could be more informed. 

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If you knew that starting next month boats would be built with an enhanced lamination schedule in the bow to help stiffen the boat and slow it’s getting soft would you wait to buy that boat?

How about if you knew the materials and method of joining the mast step to the hull was being improved? 
 

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50 minutes ago, Wess said:

If you knew that starting next month boats would be built with an enhanced lamination schedule in the bow to help stiffen the boat and slow it’s getting soft would you wait to buy that boat?

How about if you knew the materials and method of joining the mast step to the hull was being improved? 
 

If the price was the same......then yes to both.

The timing of the public announcement  and how to effect any upgrade without leaving @WestCoast stuffed with unsaleable inventory would take some skill. It can be done in a reasonably fair way with carefully timed announcements and suitable lead times and pricing for the dealers..

However it certainly would not make a difference either way whether the manual was public or non-public.  The first time any sailor would hear about it would be via an announcement.

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8 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Yeah- they should pay me more I guess....

You now want to be paid to go on all those super duper super secret vaycays paid for by the super duper super secret fees we pay? OMG,OMG,OMG

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

You guys cracK me up. Happy to have a serious and honest conversation. But that is a 2 way street. It was a simple question I asked Robbie. What I got back was typical ILCA evasion. OK, whatever. Neither of us owes the other a serious discussion. So onward we go. 

I've answered every question you've ever presented to me.  Even acknowledging ILCA  missteps along the way.  You're "Trumpian" attitude however has become a exhausting.  There is no conversation with you on the topics you take issue with.  It's your way or the highway.  So, I'm on the highway.  Enjoy whatever you decide to sail.  I'll keep buying my own rum.  Later.

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@RobbieB - Less drama lama.  You really never did answer the question and it was/is an honest attempt to find common ground to answer your question to me.  The question was and is do you think its good (for sailors) that the construction manual isn't public..

Eye went on about sailors would not understand it or care (I disagree but whatever) and that it would add posts and pages to a thread (um... OK... so... as Robbie has repeatedly said said the thread is good for the class) while IPL got right to it (it would hurt builders and dealers... yup it could but I am caring and asking about sailors).  Gouv also got to it (below after IPL's post) and he too is on point about legalities (ignoring this doesn't help sailors which is what the question asks) if I am recalling correctly but that is not where In was going in trying to answer Robbie and there are ways around this and it really doesn't matter Gouv  (referencing Gouv's complaints about class still needing another vote and not following constitution/bylaws to do what they have done) for where I was going to go to try to answer Robbie's question.  But still the person asked (Robbie) has not answered what was and is an honest question and attempt to find common ground to answer his Q about if the construction manual not being public is good for the sailors.

13 hours ago, IPLore said:

If the price was the same......then yes to both.

The timing of the public announcement  and how to effect any upgrade without leaving @WestCoast stuffed with unsaleable inventory would take some skill. It can be done in a reasonably fair way with carefully timed announcements and suitable lead times and pricing for the dealers..

However it certainly would not make a difference either way whether the manual was public or non-public.  The first time any sailor would hear about it would be via an announcement.

 

12 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@Wess  @IPLore

Has either of you researched the Library of Congress to see if you can find the construction manual as copyrighted by Kirby 

like maybe checking to see what documents are public under Kirby as author...

just wondering 

 

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

@RobbieB - Less drama lama.  You really never did answer the question and it was/is an honest attempt to find common ground to answer your question to me.  The question was and is do you think its good (for sailors) that the construction manual isn't public..

Eye went on about sailors would not understand it or care (I disagree but whatever) and that it would add posts and pages to a thread (um... OK... so... as Robbie has repeatedly said said the thread is good for the class) while IPL got right to it (it would hurt builders and dealers... yup it could but I am caring and asking about sailors).  Gouv also got to it (below after IPL's post) and he too is on point about legalities (ignoring this doesn't help sailors which is what the question asks) if I am recalling correctly but that is not where In was going in trying to answer Robbie and there are ways around this and it really doesn't matter Gouv  (referencing Gouv's complaints about class still needing another vote and not following constitution/bylaws to do what they have done) for where I was going to go to try to answer Robbie's question.  But still the person asked (Robbie) has not answered what was and is an honest question and attempt to find common ground to answer his Q about if the construction manual not being public is good for the sailors.

 

 

Ultimately I dont think it particularly would help sailors.

The only example you came up with is that sailors would be informed when an update happens to construction. The reality is they would only be update in arrears after the chnage has happend.

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15 hours ago, IPLore said:

This thread still going.

Wess, how are you doing? We date back to lawn mower days :)

I miss those good old days when IPLore and Gantt would fill page after page with lengthy detailed discussions of legal issues related to the Kirby lawsuits.

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ummm... I have not come up with any example. I did ask a question about what boat would someone buy and from that you inferred an example. And also it does not need to be handled or "operationalized" in the manner you describe. 

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