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Insurance - racing without skipper on board


Nice!

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Anybody have experience with this? If the owner of the boat is not on board, is it okay that they are listed in the registration as the skipper during a race? Should a person present be listed as skipper? Does it matter?

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My gut level intuition says that the boat owner better have such a circumstance written in unambiguous language into the Contract. 

Or trust the Insurance company to do the right thing?

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22 minutes ago, Nice! said:

Anybody have experience with this? If the owner of the boat is not on board, is it okay that they are listed in the registration as the skipper during a race? Should a person present be listed as skipper? Does it matter?

Depends of the owner's insurance company I think. I would investigate that first. I've moved boats/delivered boats lots and done races as tactician/navigator and virtual skipper etc when the actual owner isn't there. I do ask the owner if that's okay. I had to get my CPS certification in the '70's doing that and all the miles I've logged it's a given with most insurance companies. In our region it would be Navis, Dolphin etc but Mutual of Omaha? Maybe not so much. The  problem lies is if you end up in a situation that there is an actual claim then it might go all south on you. I'd certainly check on that.  

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There was a whole fiasco with this over several years and the Chicago Yacht Club, though I can't seem to bring anything up using the search mode.  Maybe someone else reading this can bring in the finer details.

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It should be crystal clear with a quick glance at your policy.

1. Does the insurance cover racing?   Some do not.

2. Is the insurance valid if the owner is absent?  It most likely does.

However most insurance does NOT cover a vessel if it is chartered to someone else for racing.   If it is not chartered but racing with the consent of the owner, with the owners designated representatives on board....then it is more likely covered than not covered. Check first. 

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I don't have any experience with this but, knowing what I know about insurance companies ,I would definitely expect that it matters to have a qualified skipper ,who is also listed on the owners insurance, present during racing. 

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Yup.  Been on a lot of out and back races and if the owner is not aboard on a leg no big deal.  Of course we didn't wreck the boat so it's a non issue.

Chartering the boat  for a race, not a good situation, better have big insurance coverage, which is not cheap.

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It depends upon your insurance just as Maxx said. I just switched from Progressive to Gowrie for my motor boat. I paid $220 to add my two brothers as insured captains under Progressive.  For Gowrie, I just have to give them verbal or written consent to use the boat and they're covered. I realize that it's not a sailboat race but skipper in charge is still an issue. Racing the sailboat is another issue.

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For the insurance, I think it is ok if the owner is not on board as long the as boat isn't being chartered but check the insurance to be sure.  Special insurance is required for chartered racing boats - I investigated the cost once for someone who wanted to charter my boat for WIRW; it was not only hard to find a company that would take the risk, it was expensive too.  

Racing with the owner listed as skipper when the owner is not on board is probably ok.  The applicable rules are 46, 75 and the Sail Canada prescriptions:

Here's 46:

46 PERSON IN CHARGE A boat shall have on board a person in charge designated by the member or organization that entered the boat. See rule 75.

Here's 75:

75.1 To enter a race, a boat shall comply with the requirements of the organizing authority of the race. She shall be entered by (a) a member of a club or other organization affiliated to a World Sailing member national authority, (b) such a club or organization, or (c) a member of a World Sailing member national authority.

75.2 Competitors shall comply with World Sailing Regulation 19, Eligibility Code.

Then Sail Canada says all this stuff: 

https://www.sailing.ca/files/Proving_Membership_at_Sail_Canada_events__Sailing_Competitions_in_Canada_applying_RRS_46__75.pdf

My interpretation of this is that the person entering the boat must be a member of a Sail Canada yacht club for any event sailed under the Sail Canada rules (this would be noted in the SI's).  They can then designate a person in charge. 

To summarize:

1) Person entering the boat must be a member of a Sail Canada-affiliated yacht club.  They will probably be listed as "skipper" whether they are on the boat or not.

2) There must be a designated person on board in charge of the boat.  That person does not need to be same person that entered the boat.

I think you're good.  You are especially in the clear if the SI's don't include a reference to the Sail Canada rules.  

Interesting rabbit hole...:)

 

 

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I think more importantly that the person declared as Person in Charge (PIC) is actually on board. I mean how can someone be listed/registered as skipper NOT be on board during a race.

As far as insurance is concerned very frequently there is no named PIC as such but often there is a stipulation regarding experience level of the PIC. For example the cover we have in place for the Cookson 50 and the Swan 82 states PIC must be Yachtmaster (or equivalent)

Dash 34, you are correct that the requirements for a charter vessel are usually more stringent due to the commercial nature of the vessel and the greater chance of the PIC not be as familiar with the vessel.

It should also be remembered that although insurance is required for racing it is usually only the third party coverage that is requested although broader cover would be recommended. However most insurances only provide % payout  should damage occur to rig or sails when racing, tupically between 50% and 2/3 of value. 

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Most recreational boat insurance policies continue to work when the owner is not on board, as long as they gave someone "permission" to use their boat.  Permission is a very loose term, "Hey, can I use your boat this weekend?"  "Ya, sure."

Most recreational boat insurance policies are silent about sailboat racing meaning it is a covered activity.

Very rarely, I have seen a "designated operator" endorsement - commonly on Donzi type boats that go 50mph+.  Coverage only exists when that operator is driving the boat.

As a result who entered the race and who is operating the boat has NOTHING to do with insurance (the vast majority of the time).

Glenn T. McCarthy, AAI
Professional Marine Insurance Agent

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8 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I think more importantly that the person declared as Person in Charge (PIC) is actually on board. I mean how can someone be listed/registered as skipper NOT be on board during a race.

As far as insurance is concerned very frequently there is no named PIC as such but often there is a stipulation regarding experience level of the PIC. For example the cover we have in place for the Cookson 50 and the Swan 82 states PIC must be Yachtmaster (or equivalent)

Dash 34, you are correct that the requirements for a charter vessel are usually more stringent due to the commercial nature of the vessel and the greater chance of the PIC not be as familiar with the vessel.

It should also be remembered that although insurance is required for racing it is usually only the third party coverage that is requested although broader cover would be recommended. However most insurances only provide % payout  should damage occur to rig or sails when racing, tupically between 50% and 2/3 of value. 

The problem is that when registering for an event there is only one "registrant" - that is the person that "enters" the boat. There is invariably no place to list the "person in charge".  I think the OP's question is about who should be listed on the "registration" - the owner (person entering) or the PIC (the person skippering the boat in the regatta if the owner is not on board.) The correct answer is, I believe, the owner, assuming the owner is a member of a yacht club. It could also be the PIC but the PIC must be a member of a yacht club that meets the Sail Canada requirements, assuming the regatta follows the Sail Canada rules.  If both are members of Sail Canada clubs it probably doesn't matter who is listed on the registration. 

Any official correspondence eg. from the race or protest committees will go to the registrant - so that might be a factor in deciding who to list on the registration, assuming both are qualified to enter the boat.

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29 minutes ago, dash34 said:

The problem is that when registering for an event there is only one "registrant" - that is the person that "enters" the boat. There is invariably no place to list the "person in charge".  I think the OP's question is about who should be listed on the "registration" - the owner (person entering) or the PIC (the person skippering the boat in the regatta if the owner is not on board.) The correct answer is, I believe, the owner, assuming the owner is a member of a yacht club. It could also be the PIC but the PIC must be a member of a yacht club that meets the Sail Canada requirements, assuming the regatta follows the Sail Canada rules.  If both are members of Sail Canada clubs it probably doesn't matter who is listed on the registration. 

Any official correspondence eg. from the race or protest committees will go to the registrant - so that might be a factor in deciding who to list on the registration, assuming both are qualified to enter the boat.

I get your point now.

If I remember correctly the requirement goes all the way up to World Sailing in that to be able to enter any sailing race you have to be a member of a club, a recognised class association or an MNA. - There may be other parameters that allow but I know of these three. Many MNA's allow personal membership(I am a member of 2) 

The 'entrant' is the one who has be a member of club, association or MNA. From a personal point of view, everyone who races regularly should be a member of one and 'pay their way' in the sport in fact some clubs have rules which require crew to be members if they do more than 'x' races a season.

It is usually the owner that enters the boat and in the distant past (20 years ago) my crew secured a series win for me when I was hospitalised for the last race of the series(not sailing related I hasten to add) 

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4 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Glenn T. McCarthy, AAI
Professional Marine Insurance Agent

Glenn, 

Opportunities like this only come around once in a lifetime!

From the front page;

Oddly, we don’t have an insurance company as an advertiser here, but this is a good question from our Fabulous Forums!:

 

 

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my insurance company tells me if I charter my boat for transpac, it will cost about 4 times as much. If  I am listed as co skipper, its just a small rider for beyond coastal sailing.

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15 hours ago, dash34 said:

For the insurance, I think it is ok if the owner is not on board as long the as boat isn't being chartered but check the insurance to be sure.  Special insurance is required for chartered racing boats - I investigated the cost once for someone who wanted to charter my boat for WIRW; it was not only hard to find a company that would take the risk, it was expensive too.  

Racing with the owner listed as skipper when the owner is not on board is probably ok.  The applicable rules are 46, 75 and the Sail Canada prescriptions:

Here's 46:

46 PERSON IN CHARGE A boat shall have on board a person in charge designated by the member or organization that entered the boat. See rule 75.

Here's 75:

75.1 To enter a race, a boat shall comply with the requirements of the organizing authority of the race. She shall be entered by (a) a member of a club or other organization affiliated to a World Sailing member national authority, (b) such a club or organization, or (c) a member of a World Sailing member national authority.

75.2 Competitors shall comply with World Sailing Regulation 19, Eligibility Code.

Then Sail Canada says all this stuff: 

https://www.sailing.ca/files/Proving_Membership_at_Sail_Canada_events__Sailing_Competitions_in_Canada_applying_RRS_46__75.pdf

My interpretation of this is that the person entering the boat must be a member of a Sail Canada yacht club for any event sailed under the Sail Canada rules (this would be noted in the SI's).  They can then designate a person in charge. 

To summarize:

1) Person entering the boat must be a member of a Sail Canada-affiliated yacht club.  They will probably be listed as "skipper" whether they are on the boat or not.

2) There must be a designated person on board in charge of the boat.  That person does not need to be same person that entered the boat.

I think you're good.  You are especially in the clear if the SI's don't include a reference to the Sail Canada rules.  

Interesting rabbit hole...:)

 

 

Interesting Dash. Are they recent rules in our area? We had a situation in Wed. nite racing that clown driving fouled it twice and third time actually hit us. Not huge damage but enough for 5K worth; mostly cosmetic but still. I don't think the actual owner was there. I would have him tossed for further racing but the owner on the boat was going to let it go. He's been a meanace for years and likely tossed at the Really Vicious Yacht Club too. I have no time for that type thing. Aggressive rule bending/breaking rules all the time but maybe just incompetent too. Things that make you go.....hmmmm....     

 

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5 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Most recreational boat insurance policies continue to work when the owner is not on board, as long as they gave someone "permission" to use their boat.  Permission is a very loose term, "Hey, can I use your boat this weekend?"  "Ya, sure."

Most recreational boat insurance policies are silent about sailboat racing meaning it is a covered activity.

Very rarely, I have seen a "designated operator" endorsement - commonly on Donzi type boats that go 50mph+.  Coverage only exists when that operator is driving the boat.

As a result who entered the race and who is operating the boat has NOTHING to do with insurance (the vast majority of the time).

Glenn T. McCarthy, AAI
Professional Marine Insurance Agent

Glenn, never seen one that doesn't have an endorsement about racing risks and pretty much always there is a % deduction if the insured loss to rig or sails is  through a racing event.

I also agree that for higher value or higher performance boat there is generally a "qualification requirement" rather than "designated operator" clause.

On our policy the exact wording (on the Swan) is "Certificated Master and Engineers" which includes the likes of RYA Yachtmaster Offshore etc.

On the Cookson sails are "Excluded Absolutely", mark you she is a Sydney Hobart boat so understandable. As an absolute pain the RSHYR demands AUS$10m 3rd party because of the potential rescue costs ( I understand)

So although, in theory, entering a race and insurance are not related you usually cannot race without (at least) third party cover.

Insurance is a minefield and best advice is "read the bloody small print"

Just my experience.

SS

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On 3/31/2019 at 8:17 AM, Geff said:

There was a whole fiasco with this over several years and the Chicago Yacht Club, though I can't seem to bring anything up using the search mode.  Maybe someone else reading this can bring in the finer details.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2002-11-20-0211200076-story.html

 

This article might provide some key words to search for

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I am almost exclusively never on my boat, yet my boat races several days per week and is registered for all races in my name. I have checked with my insurance company every year, and every year have confirmed that this does not affect my coverage. YMMV.

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On 3/30/2019 at 1:47 PM, Nice! said:

Anybody have experience with this? If the owner of the boat is not on board, is it okay that they are listed in the registration as the skipper during a race? Should a person present be listed as skipper? Does it matter?

Ask Podmajersky sp?

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11 hours ago, Maxx Baqustae said:

Interesting Dash. Are they recent rules in our area? We had a situation in Wed. nite racing that clown driving fouled it twice and third time actually hit us. Not huge damage but enough for 5K worth; mostly cosmetic but still. I don't think the actual owner was there. I would have him tossed for further racing but the owner on the boat was going to let it go. He's been a meanace for years and likely tossed at the Really Vicious Yacht Club too. I have no time for that type thing. Aggressive rule bending/breaking rules all the time but maybe just incompetent too. Things that make you go.....hmmmm....     

 

How did the protest go?

As far as the rules are concerned, I used to believe that only a member of a club could be the skipper (PIC) of a boat, but reading the current rules it looks like anyone can be skipper (PIC).  You only have to be a member of a club to enter the boat.

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5 hours ago, dash34 said:

You only have to be a member of a club to enter the boat.

Or not. It's easy to gundeck this requirement by paying Ontario Sailing $22/pa to belong to its non-existent Maple Leaf Club, which provides Canadians who don't want to join a yacht club with Sail Canada cards and gives them the right to enter their boats in sanctioned regattas. BC Sailing may have a similar cash grab facility. 

8 hours ago, Keysrock35 said:

I am almost exclusively never on my boat, yet my boat races several days per week and is registered for all races in my name.

Why do you bother? :unsure:

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gotta check the policy. Many policies have scheduled operators only, some dont.  Its easy and cheap/free to add operators as long as they have some experience. 

as for the racing exclusion, usually they will remove it for sailboats for no charge.

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On 3/31/2019 at 1:49 PM, shanghaisailor said:

Glenn, never seen one that doesn't have an endorsement about racing risks and pretty much always there is a % deduction if the insured loss to rig or sails is  through a racing event.

I also agree that for higher value or higher performance boat there is generally a "qualification requirement" rather than "designated operator" clause.

On our policy the exact wording (on the Swan) is "Certificated Master and Engineers" which includes the likes of RYA Yachtmaster Offshore etc.

On the Cookson sails are "Excluded Absolutely", mark you she is a Sydney Hobart boat so understandable. As an absolute pain the RSHYR demands AUS$10m 3rd party because of the potential rescue costs ( I understand)

So although, in theory, entering a race and insurance are not related you usually cannot race without (at least) third party cover.

Insurance is a minefield and best advice is "read the bloody small print"

Just my experience.

SS

My comments were USA-centric.  It is interesting to see how terms and conditions are very different down under.  Thanks.

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58 minutes ago, Keysrock35 said:

We all bitch about the decline of sailing participation

I don't. People can, and will, do what they want with their precious leisure time; it's really none of my business.

While I do my best to 'give back' to the sport in various ways, I don't waste time worrying or complaining about the long-term future. Even assuming zero new participants, there's enough existing infrastructure to support those of us who currently enjoy sailing for another two or three decades. Après nous, le déluge.

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On 3/31/2019 at 8:00 AM, Glenn McCarthy said:

Most recreational boat insurance policies are silent about sailboat racing meaning it is a covered activity.

Glenn T. McCarthy, AAI

Professional Marine Insurance Agent

Glenn,

Thanks for this info, is there any way to be sure that sailboat racing is covered if the policy is silent? Or should I get this confirmed in writing just in case? (just reading my policy again :) )

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2 hours ago, JohnMB said:

Glenn,

Thanks for this info, is there any way to be sure that sailboat racing is covered if the policy is silent? Or should I get this confirmed in writing just in case? (just reading my policy again :) )

No agent puts "in writing" anything because the "contract of insurance" (policy) takes precedent.  It doesn't hurt to double check with your agent.

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6 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

My comments were USA-centric.  It is interesting to see how terms and conditions are very different down under.  Thanks.

Not down under a all. One boat 'lives' in Hong Kong and the other in Shenzhen, both Northern Hemisphere and not 'down under'. Plus before coming to China I was a sailor in the UK for around 30 years and the same racing exclusions or deductions apply there.

And try and charter a yacht without some sort of qualifications and you may find it rather difficult and that is primarily because of insurance requirements.

Underwritten by a Lloyds (of London) Syndicate, the world's largest insurance market. having said that, no worries, each to their own.

The international marine insurance world is in a bit of flux at the moment with (it is said) premiums likely to rise. Not least because of some humongous claims, particularly thelikes of the disastrous fire at Leurssen in Germany where the claim is likely to top USD800m and may even reach USD900m.

A lot of insurers are very nervous right now.

SS

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9 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Not down under a all. One boat 'lives' in Hong Kong and the other in Shenzhen, both Northern Hemisphere and not 'down under'. Plus before coming to China I was a sailor in the UK for around 30 years and the same racing exclusions or deductions apply there.

And try and charter a yacht without some sort of qualifications and you may find it rather difficult and that is primarily because of insurance requirements.

Underwritten by a Lloyds (of London) Syndicate, the world's largest insurance market. having said that, no worries, each to their own.

The international marine insurance world is in a bit of flux at the moment with (it is said) premiums likely to rise. Not least because of some humongous claims, particularly thelikes of the disastrous fire at Leurssen in Germany where the claim is likely to top USD800m and may even reach USD900m.

A lot of insurers are very nervous right now.

SS

Thought the reports stated only one ship (new build) and insurer impacted at Leurssen.  Wow re those figures; where are you seeing that?

 

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23 minutes ago, Wess said:

Thought the reports stated only one ship (new build) and insurer impacted at Leurssen.  Wow re those figures; where are you seeing that?

 

I was quoted those figures from someone inside the marine insurance industry. 

Also has to be remembered that the damage was not limited to a yacht.

Also a quick bing search conforms figures of that magnitude. This is one link which quotes it as Euro 750m Risk Policy which is USD 840m

https://insurancemarinenews.com/insurance-marine-news/insurers-could-face-huge-hull-loss-from-lurssen-shipyard-fire/

SS

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38 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I was quoted those figures from someone inside the marine insurance industry. 

Also has to be remembered that the damage was not limited to a yacht.

Also a quick bing search conforms figures of that magnitude. This is one link which quotes it as Euro 750m Risk Policy which is USD 840m

https://insurancemarinenews.com/insurance-marine-news/insurers-could-face-huge-hull-loss-from-lurssen-shipyard-fire/

SS

Interesting; thank you.  Had not followed it closely.

 

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