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Let face it - our version of capitalism is broken


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Interesting bit from Axios that points out we are a nation of monopoly’s and that capitalism left to its own devices inevitably goes bad.  I personally think we need to embrace a hybrid capitalism/socialism model thatI like to call crappy socialism which I will expand on later. This is polling well among Americans and I think the eventual Dem nominee will ride this growing conviction that our government and economic model is broken to an overwhelming victory in 2020.

https://www.axios.com/iowa-country-of-monopolies-7de113b7-2860-4fa2-83ea-32c5b6766c15.html

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OK, back it up - provide facts to support your silly assertions.  And get a freaking spell checker. Shit, you come across dumb enough without "centerded".  Does that go good with Hamberders?  Nev

These threads remind me of the disclaimers for investment schemes "past performance is not indicative of future results". Capitalism as we know it is maybe 150 years old and an artifact of the industr

One fact is that the wealth at the top is in the stratospheres and catastrophic.  The working class is losing out even as the economy has grown.  Greed has been glorified.  Certain protected classes l

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28 minutes ago, Sean said:

Is there another way without ditching capitalism entirely?

Compassionate Capitalism means that corporations have to account for the costs that they impose on the environment

Renegade capitalism’s cost goes way beyond just the environment.  It corrupts our legal and political system, disadvantages the poorest amongst ourselves, allocates resources inefficiently (see public infrastructure investment) and ultimately weakens the fabric of our society and national security.

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Just now, Troglodytarum said:

Sure.  Let's get more government involved.  Because as we know, things work much better with more government.  Like the DMV. 

 

Just now, Troglodytarum said:

Sure.  Let's get more government involved.  Because as we know, things work much better with more government.  Like the DMV. 

My dmv works fine.  Can’t help that you live in a shithole.

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1 minute ago, Troglodytarum said:

Sure.  Let's get more government involved.  Because as we know, things work much better with more government.  Like the DMV. 

Let me guess, you’re one of the dipshits that can be consistently relied on to vote against your own interests. 

 

Who needs a fair and equitable society when triggering the libs is so much fun?

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Capitalism when not monkeyed around with by social justice warriors is self correcting...which is the beauty of the system...the bigger and broader the base of a capitalistic economy...notice I left out society and community...the safer it becomes  

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1 minute ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Capitalism when not monkeyed around with by social justice warriors is self correcting...which is the beauty of the system...the bigger and broader the base of a capitalistic economy...notice I left out society and community...the safer it becomes  

Was Teddy Roosevelt a social justice warrior?

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5 minutes ago, J28 said:

@Bort is a welcome new addition here in PA.  We really don’t have anybody  posting the insane lefty point of view.  Thank you for your contribution!

 

Just now, warbird said:

:lol:........any body say tits yet:ph34r:......

 

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Just now, Troglodytarum said:

So if I got more... fuck me you'll just take it?

And you wonder why we cling to our guns?

Quite a leap there sir. 

 

I don’t support taking anything from anyone. I just believe we’d be better off with a bit less punching down from those at the top. 

 

“I am because We are.”  Try it, you might like it. 

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Just now, Bort said:

Quite a leap there sir. 

 

I don’t support taking anything from anyone. I just believe we’d be better off with a bit less punching down from those at the top.

 

“I am because We are.”  Try it, you might like it. 

That would be the Libgressive governments 

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7 minutes ago, J28 said:

@Bort is a welcome new addition here in PA.  We really don’t have anybody  posting the insane lefty point of view.  Thank you for your contribution!

And what does that tell you?

 

I have a saying for when we bring new peeps big boat sailing:  “If you’re all by yourself you’re in the wrong spot.”

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2 minutes ago, J28 said:

It tells me you are a weak minded fool who has nothing original or different from dozens of others posters in this shithole.

Congratulations you have described consensus. A necessary part of life in a two party system. Well done sir. 

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3 minutes ago, J28 said:

Snappy comeback.  Did you write that yourself or did you get help?

Come on you’re better than that. Next time take a few more minutes and come up with something that will actually make me laugh. I have faith in you. 

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3 minutes ago, Bort said:

Come on you’re better than that. Next time take a few more minutes and come up with something that will actually make me laugh. I have faith in you. 

He isn't better than that. He's frequently much worse.

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11 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Capitalism is not the issue or what is broken. 

The problem is a decay of morals and ethics. Capitalism with out morality and ethical behavior is as dangerous as socialism.

Care to expand on that dangerous socialism you speak of Bill.

It appears to rather nicely co- exist with capitalism in so many parts of the world.

With the added advantage that you don’t have to mortgage your house if you have a heart attack for instance.

SailBlue can perhaps help you out , he just had his ass handed to him on a platter in another thread about socialism it appears you two should get together and learn a little about it rather than nodding whenever Rush or Hannity mouth of about it being a threat.

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1 hour ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Capitalism when not monkeyed around with by social justice warriors use of gov't to force profits regardless of self-destructive business practices is self correcting...which is the beauty of the system...the bigger and broader the base of a capitalistic economy...notice I left out society and community...the safer it becomes  

FIFY

Why is the standard of living in the USA going down? Why are average wages stagnant?

This doesn't look like "winning" unless you are the sort of childish spiteful moran who is willing to suffer just for the sake of seeing those you hate (goddam smarty-pants libby-rulls!) suffer too.

 

-DSK

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

FIFY

Why is the standard of living in the USA going down? Why are average wages stagnant?

This doesn't look like "winning" unless you are the sort of childish spiteful moran who is willing to suffer just for the sake of seeing those you hate (goddam smarty-pants libby-rulls!) suffer too.

 

-DSK

 Narrator:  He is. 

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

FIFY

Why is the standard of living in the USA going down? Why are average wages stagnant?......see the "Wall" thread and the massive illegal migration of unskilled,uneducated,non english speaking hordes

This doesn't look like "winning" unless you are the sort of childish spiteful moran who is willing to suffer just for the sake of seeing those you hate (goddam smarty-pants libby-rulls!) suffer too.

 

-DSK

 

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28 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:
37 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

...   ...

Why is the standard of living in the USA going down? Why are average wages stagnant?......see the "Wall" thread and the massive illegal migration of unskilled,uneducated,non english speaking hordes

...    ...

 

Uh huh.

Math, it's that thing you do when you're not dumb and bigoted, and want the real answer.

What percentage of the US population would all the illegal immigrants over the past 2 1/2 years (the President Trump era) be? How much could this percentage shift the standard of living, assuming they all wanted low-pay jobs?

Oh wait, I thought they were all criminals? Would criminals (who pretty much by definition are not seeking jobs) affect wages and unemployment?

Think. It hurts, at first, I know, but after a while you get to like it. And life works out better for you.... for example, that tax cut, betcha really are rakin' in the bucks this spring, huh?

-DSK

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looking at severely diminished fish stocks in the oceans is a perfect example of mindless capitalism, in layman's terms by default.

fkn' rape it, it has no voice and it'll give more. righty mentality.

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18 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Uh huh.

Math, it's that thing you do when you're not dumb and bigoted, and want the real answer.

What percentage of the US population would all the illegal immigrants over the past 2 1/2 years (the President Trump era) be? How much could this percentage shift the standard of living, assuming they all wanted low-pay jobs?

Oh wait, I thought they were all criminals? Would criminals (who pretty much by definition are not seeking jobs) affect wages and unemployment?

Think. It hurts, at first, I know, but after a while you get to like it. And life works out better for you.... for example, that tax cut, betcha really are rakin' in the bucks this spring, huh?

-DSK

They are all criminals by breaking our laws being in this country illegally...it's  is not a matter of percentages of newcomer illegals...it greatly shifts the standard of living lower for the legal Americans living at the lower economic levels ...do  I really need to explain this to you...and why we are on explain...why don't you explain why you are OK with ILLEGALs   living in this country...sorry I don't share your distorted sense of sympathy 

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5 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

They are all criminals by breaking our laws being in this country illegally...it's  is not a matter of percentages of newcomer illegals...it greatly shifts the standard of living lower for the legal Americans living at the lower economic levels ...do  I really need to explain this to you...and why we are on explain...why don't you explain why you are OK with ILLEGALs   living in this country...sorry I don't share your distorted sense of sympathy 

Yes, please explain how a really tiny percentage of people can shift major factors in the national economy.

Trying to make it about "you darn nigger Spic lovers" does not help your case. I assume you are not a small-gov't conservative since you are in favor of higher taxes so the gov't can hire lots of jack-booted thugs to keep those darn brown people in check.

Back to capitalism...... even police don't work for free.

I take it by your silence on the matter, your tax cut didn't work out as well as you'd hoped.

-DSK

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15 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

They are all criminals by breaking our laws being in this country illegally...

 

Previous administrations have correctly not prosecuted asylum seekers for illegal entry. Doing so is a violation of domestic asylum law as well as international human rights law because asylum seekers have the legal right to seek asylum.

https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/390743-people-fleeing-persecution-have-the-right-to-seek-asylum

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Just now, Sean said:

 

Previous administrations have correctly not prosecuted asylum seekers for illegal entry. Doing so is a violation of domestic asylum law as well as international human rights law because asylum seekers have the legal right to seek asylum.

https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/390743-people-fleeing-persecution-have-the-right-to-seek-asylum

this asylum clause is being grossly abused....and international law says they must ask for asylum in the first country they enter, I may be wrong on that for all the gleeful ankle biters 

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13 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yes, please explain how a really tiny percentage of people can shift major factors in the national economy.

Trying to make it about "you darn nigger Spic lovers" does not help your case. I assume you are not a small-gov't conservative since you are in favor of higher taxes so the gov't can hire lots of jack-booted thugs to keep those darn brown people in check.

Back to capitalism...... even police don't work for free.

I take it by your silence on the matter, your tax cut didn't work out as well as you'd hoped.

-DSK

Go ahead and speak for yourself without mischaracterizing me ......

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2 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

Care to expand on that dangerous socialism you speak of Bill.

It appears to rather nicely co- exist with capitalism in so many parts of the world.

With the added advantage that you don’t have to mortgage your house if you have a heart attack for instance.

SailBlue can perhaps help you out , he just had his ass handed to him on a platter in another thread about socialism it appears you two should get together and learn a little about it rather than nodding whenever Rush or Hannity mouth of about it being a threat.

LOL...Fake conclusion...Libgressive's got all puffy about the literal definition and implementation of "socialism " in Scandinavian countries and elsewhere...I just let them have their  fun...makes them feel smart in some small ways and pacifies them after their typing rants

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4 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

We should aspire to be so. ASSHOlLES make it difficult but ditching our current capitalism is a good move in that direction.

fair and equitable ... opportunity....that is all...and it works very well and even better without do gooders trying to fix it from the outside...like glib community organizers 

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32 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Glad to.Is it moral to expect others to give you what they rightfully earned through their hard work?

Is it immoral to support those less fortunate than you?

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19 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Glad to.Is it moral to expect others to give you what they rightfully earned through their hard work?

I work hard as do many.

 What is different  is we all pay tax but rather than send 62 cents in every tax payer dollar collected in the US to a military industrial complex we disburse it in ways that benefit every hard working individual,  like many we have insurance for elective medical if we choose to use that avenue and yet overall our public and private medical costs are a fraction of those in the US.

We do not however say tough shit to the unfortunate that gets a cancer diagnosis through no fault of their own.......... remind us who is moral again.

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Just now, Ishmael said:

Is it immoral to support those less fortunate than you?

no...of course not....problem is supporting deadbeats and  liberal politicians that preying on the less fortunate in exchange for their votes...the triple  diagonal planking of the DNC

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1 minute ago, SailBlueH2O said:

no...of course not....problem is supporting deadbeats and  liberal politicians that preying on the less fortunate in exchange for their votes...the triple  diagonal planking of the DNC

Coherency is not your strong suit, is it?

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1 minute ago, Navig8tor said:

I work hard as do many.

 What is different  is we all pay tax but rather than send 62 cents in every tax payer dollar collected in the US to a military industrial complex we disburse it in ways that benefit every hard working individual,  like many we have insurance for elective medical if we choose to use that avenue and yet overall our public and private medical costs are a fraction of those in the US.

We do not however say tough shit to the unfortunate that gets a cancer diagnosis through no fault of their own.......... remind us who is moral again.

I gather you are not American...if so may I ask of which country so are so proud ?

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6 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Participating in the conversation is above your stature it seems..always popping off rather than speaking for yourself

A conversation is not one person babbling bullshit while ignoring reality.

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46 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Glad to.Is it moral to expect others to give you what they rightfully earned through their hard work?

Oh yeah, Donald Trump is an excellent example of hard work, all right.

6 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Participating in the conversation is above your stature it seems..always popping off rather than speaking for yourself

Maybe I should remind you, you were going to explain how a tiny percent of the population (illegal immigrants) cause major shifts in national economics.

-DSK

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4 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

no...of course not....problem is supporting deadbeats and  liberal politicians that preying on the less fortunate in exchange for their votes...the triple  diagonal planking of the DNC

Leave the "deadbeats" aside for one moment and lets talk about those that actually work to keep the economic wheels turning.

Staying on topic, the problem is those that exploit workers to line their own pockets.

When an economy is booming, do employers large or small, directly reward their employees for their contribution to the increased profits by awarding percentage based bonus's or wage increases? or do they pay shareholders greater dividends? or pocket the profits?

There are companies that profit share with their employees but they are few and far between.

 

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19 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

I work hard as do many.

 What is different  is we all pay tax but rather than send 62 cents in every tax payer dollar collected in the US to a military industrial complex we disburse it in ways that benefit every hard working individual,  like many we have insurance for elective medical if we choose to use that avenue and yet overall our public and private medical costs are a fraction of those in the US.

We do not however say tough shit to the unfortunate that gets a cancer diagnosis through no fault of their own.......... remind us who is moral again.

Forget cancer.  Capitalism can’t even deal with diabetes.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbzp5q/americas-insulin-crisis-shows-why-we-need-socialism

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3 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

What about the billionaires?  Won’t anyone think about their problems for once?  

Any problems the elites might encounter are taken care of by their protection racket - the Democrat Party.

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9 minutes ago, J28 said:

Any problems the elites might encounter are taken care of by their protection racket - the Democrat Party.

These are the same elites that were just given $1.5 Trillion dollars by the Republicans? Those elites?

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1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

We should aspire to be so. ASSHOlLES make it difficult but ditching our current capitalism is a good move in that direction.

Spelling......

Should we strive for equitable opportunity or equitable results?

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3 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Capitalism is not the issue or what is broken. 

The problem is a decay of morals and ethics. Capitalism with out morality and ethical behavior is as dangerous as socialism.

I would go with, “Everything, when taken to the extreme tends to fail.”

or

Almost perfect has the flaws that make it almost. 

Anyway...

My reasons for my constant railing against Gropenfuhrer have little to do with the right vs left politics. 

My problem is he fails miserably at ethics. He lives outside the Golden Rule. He performs most of the seven deadly sins. He violates virtually every one of the Ten Commandments 

The fact society is willing to tolerate him says volumes. 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Leave the "deadbeats" aside for one moment and lets talk about those that actually work to keep the economic wheels turning.

Staying on topic, the problem is those that exploit workers to line their own pockets.

When an economy is booming, do employers large or small, directly reward their employees for their contribution to the increased profits by awarding percentage based bonus's or wage increases? or do they pay shareholders greater dividends? or pocket the profits?

There are companies that profit share with their employees but they are few and far between.

 

Short, you are an ocean away from understanding the US. Most companies give yearend bonuses. Big year, big bonus. Labor is very mobile and employers use a variety of retention strategies.  The left will always bring up an exception strawman and argue it's  the rule.

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The problem is the people like SB want it all.

You could raise income tax revenue by getting the 95% to pay more tax without raising tax thresholds.

How do you do that? pay them more.

If the top 5% stopped pocketing the profits and shared the good times with employees.

Generally, ordinary employees dont get to minimise tax much.

So it's a win for employers...they get to keep all their tax breaks, keep their taxes low.

It's a win for employees, they get more money (that gets spent on goods and services provided by employers and thus increases profit) and everyone gets better infrastructure and services. 

But the way it is now, no one "wins" except the scoundrels.

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

The problem is the people like SB want it all.

You could raise income tax revenue by getting the 95% to pay more tax without raising tax thresholds.

How do you do that? pay them more.

If the top 5% stopped pocketing the profits and shared the good times with employees.

Generally, ordinary employees dont get to minimise tax much.

So it's a win for employers...they get to keep all their tax breaks, keep their taxes low.

It's a win for employees, they get more money (that gets spent on goods and services provided by employers and thus increases profit) and everyone gets better infrastructure and services. 

But the way it is now, no one "wins" except the scoundrels.

I am not concerned with how much money anyone else has... we all find our level in life

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5 hours ago, Troglodytarum said:

Sure.  Let's get more government involved.  Because as we know, things work much better with more government.  Like the DMV. 

The DMV is a good example.  I pay a small fee online, and they confirm I have insurance to cover any costs my boat hauler might cost another vehicle owner.   They made sure I didn’t succumb to free market temptation, and just rip off your Mercedes since it was shiny, and I was strong enough.   Society makes me put a metal plate on the back proving I legally bought the thing instead.     Society (me) subsidizing  the uninsured driver who clipped my brand new car was also a drag, since it took six weeks for Ford to make enough spare parts they could fix it.  Lacking insurance and living in a faith based state, she never proved she could cover her damage.   She just drove into me.    

Th biggest hassle is avoiding the free market look alike sights that perform the same task as the government BMV page for greater cost.

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1 minute ago, warbird said:

Short, you are an ocean away from understanding the US. Most companies give yearend bonuses. Big year, big bonus. Labor is very mobile and employers use a variety of retention strategies.  The left will always bring up an exception strawman and argue it's  the rule.

As will the right. It is a very effective tool.

so is accusing anyone who disagrees with your arguments a radical lunatic. 

We are a society whose operation relies on constant compromise. 

We rarely do anything or make any law that is much off the center. 

Use the Abortion battle as an Example:

ANY SUGGESTION OF CHANGE is attacked as either an excuse to “murder babies” or “Enslave women.”

****

the OP is a typical reaction to a societal move away from the middle. 

The middle likes our comfy compromises but, as individuals, we only like those compromises where as individuals we are close to the middle.

Finally: The passion of the extremists will NEVER be matched by those who are comfortably sitting in the middle.

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

I am not concerned with how much money anyone else has... we all find our level in life

If that was true, I’d be standing at your side.    Those that start on a guided platform don’t end up at the same level as the poor man’s son unless they screw up badly and repeatedly.   

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4 hours ago, warbird said:

:lol:........any body say tits yet:ph34r:......

Given the choice of a pair or 30 y/o tits, and a pair of 30 y/o dogballs...... Id go for the tits.

 

(ETA.... Even .25)

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5 minutes ago, Lark said:

If that was true, I’d be standing at your side.    Those that start on a guided platform don’t end up at the same level as the poor man’s son unless they screw up badly and repeatedly.   

But ... under the capitalist model there are many poor mans sons and daughters that have become extremely successful, many many examples in our lifetimes.... not so much in Scandinavia  or other socialist countries 

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1 minute ago, SailBlueH2O said:

But ... under the capitalist model there are many poor mans sons and daughters that have become extremely successful, many many examples in our lifetimes.... not so much in Scandinavia  or other socialist countries 

Actually it’s declining in the states.  https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_071414.html

“Your chance of achieving the American Dream is nearly twice as high in Canada relative to the United States.” 

Scandinavia has much more social equality, and as a result there is less movement.   The water is born close to level.    

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32 minutes ago, solosailor said:

Cite......   cause I bet it's far away from "most".

All the companies I have ever worked for.  7 of 8 neighbors, the 8th being US postal.  All of my siblings that work in the private sector. Both my daughters  and one's SO. My son. On and on,.and on.......

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26 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

The Scandinavian countrys (and Germany) have similar overall economic inequality to the US.

D2-mJVQX0AAqKQk.jpg

The difference is what baubles they are willing to toss the poor. The euros are willing to give the poor basic medical care & housing. The US market provides dirt cheap TVs.

 Can you explain the graph?  Is there a key?

I was looking at something like this.   http://theconversation.com/what-the-world-can-learn-about-equality-from-the-nordic-model-99797.   I noticed we are closer to China then Iceland.   I quite like Iceland.   I also noticed the country was full of immigrants.   

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5 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Capitalism when not monkeyed around with by social justice warriors is self correcting...which is the beauty of the system...the bigger and broader the base of a capitalistic economy...notice I left out society and community...the safer it becomes  

Boy, oh boy have you got it wrong.  Capitalism is not self correcting.  There is a mathematical truth starting from Fletcher with his "random walk", also known as Brownian Motion.  This inherently has high entropy.  It then goes on to control theory that shows straight capitalism is undamped and therefore can come off the rails easily.  All Marx did was point this out in a non-mathematical way.

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3 minutes ago, Laker said:

Boy, oh boy have you got it wrong.  Capitalism is not self correcting.  There is a mathematical truth starting from Fletcher with his "random walk", also known as Brownian Motion.  This inherently has high entropy.  It then goes on to control theory that shows straight capitalism is undamped and therefore can come off the rails easily.  All Marx did was point this out in a non-mathematical way.

Marx....LOL....please explain why it continues to self correct and evolve in the US...

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39 minutes ago, warbird said:

All the companies I have ever worked for.  7 of 8 neighbors, the 8th being US postal.  All of my siblings that work in the private sector. Both my daughters  and one's SO. My son. On and on,.and on.......

Me too, as well as my all three of my sons.  My “acquaintances” who don’t get bonuses:  DiL #1 - VAA, her father - USPS, her mother  - public school teacher, her sister - USPS, DiL#2 - public school teacher, her father - pastor at a mainstream Protestant church (might be the most lefty org. of them all).  They all put in their time and collect their paycheck, regardless of the quality of the work done.  

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What makes one person of modest upbringing a steve jobs and the guy next door a 7/11 clerk.

True socialism creates a Soviet Union or a Cuba. Where collectivism destroys incentives and innovation. Until the fall of the Soviet Union, there were no Russian Gates or Jobs. 

Rich countries with predominantly white European Christian ancestry can play with their socialist/capitalist hybrids until the economy collapses or the burden or immigration brings them down. Then they will become Venezuela. 

The major point of the EU is the uniform socialist structure they want to impose on all members. Why do you think they hate the UK for Brexit. They know that wealth will fly to the British Isles when they get out from under the EU mandates. France's 75% wealth tax was a disaster. The money flight to Scotland, Ireland and elsewhere was devastating. Instead of providing the revenue to boost the middle class and poor the French are raising gas and every other tax to make up for the shortfalls caused by capital flight. Hello Yellow Shorts. 

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47 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

must be nice to work for shitty companys that fuck over their workers by pretending to be generous.

A shitty company that has one of the lowest turn over rates in the region, pays at or near the top in the region, recruits top talent from graduating classes and pays bonuses.  We always asked over lunch "Who's gonna get fucked over now?" Not.

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