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Let face it - our version of capitalism is broken


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OK, back it up - provide facts to support your silly assertions.  And get a freaking spell checker. Shit, you come across dumb enough without "centerded".  Does that go good with Hamberders?  Nev

These threads remind me of the disclaimers for investment schemes "past performance is not indicative of future results". Capitalism as we know it is maybe 150 years old and an artifact of the industr

One fact is that the wealth at the top is in the stratospheres and catastrophic.  The working class is losing out even as the economy has grown.  Greed has been glorified.  Certain protected classes l

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Everywhere there's lots of piggies

living piggie lives...you can see them out for dinner, with their piggie wives...

Clutching forks and knives to Eat The Bacon...

Fuck I'm old, I remembered that instantly.

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41 minutes ago, Happy said:

Everywhere there's lots of piggies

living piggie lives...you can see them out for dinner, with their piggie wives...

Clutching forks and knives to Eat The Bacon...

Fuck I'm old, I remembered that instantly.

In their eyes there's something lacking

What they need's a dam good whacking!

 

Me too :D

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4 hours ago, 3to1 said:
17 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Capitalism when not monkeyed around with by social justice warriors is self correcting...which is the beauty of the system...the bigger and broader the base of a capitalistic economy...notice I left out society and community...the safer it becomes  

is ecological 'collateral damage' due to rampant, thoughtless capitalism 'self correcting'?

No. The Tragedy of the Commons is a real thing. Not really thoughtless, as each participant is thinking about what's best for him. It's a feature, not a bug. It's an inherent flaw in capitalism.

19 hours ago, Sean said:

Is there another way without ditching capitalism entirely?

Compassionate Capitalism means that corporations have to account for the costs that they impose on the environment, the communities that lie in the vicinity of their factories and plants as well as offices, their employees whom they have to treat with more kindness, and the consumers and other stakeholders to whom they must be accountable.

In other words, corporations must practice a variety of capitalism that is more humane, compassionate, and just and fair. This not only entails a mindset change but also a movement away from the dominant philosophy of polluting the environment and refusing to pay for the cleanup, increasing pay for those at the top of the organizational hierarchy and letting those down the ladder high and dry, not compromising on quality and safety of their products and goods and services, and to be transparent in their dealings with regulators and the governmental agencies.

A Case for a Rethink and Retooling of Capitalism

Thus, Compassionate Capitalism not only needs a complete rethink of the existing paradigm of profit before people but also needs a retooling of the principles underpinning it to place people before profit.

Extending your excerpt a bit didn't help in my case. Corporations and other people should have to pay real costs of environmental degradation but "placing people before profit" is meaningless gibberish. Not compromising on quality? How is Harbor Freight supposed to exist?

In fairness, I saw some similar gibberish from my own elk this morning.

You Can't Shut Down Space

Quote

Even if they don't have direct NASA funding or contracts, commercial space companies are not safe from the vagaries of government. The CEO of the space startup Vector recently tweeted that a test flight to orbit was being held up by a lack of FAA approval. "Shutdown stops FAA's ability to finish our launch license," wrote Jim Cantrell. "Hoping DC gets its act together soon." This is why privatization isn't enough—deregulation is also crucial.

Deregulation of test flights to orbit?

As long as it occurs only within your privately owned column of the atmosphere and above land you own.

In other words: no. And geezus. She's the editor in chief.

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As government expands and exerts more influence on the economy it becomes a profit center for business itself. The rewards flow less and less to the productive and more and more to the politically connected. Capitalism becomes crony-capitalism then socialism. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

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5 hours ago, Happy said:

It's a matter of perspective. From the point of view of the 1%, capitalism in the USA is in great shape.

The current administration has provided nice tax breaks for the top end, overturning environmental protections where it can, and fostering a culture where lies are common and unremarkable. No doubt the next administration will similarly be pushed to play nice.

At the same time, crappy education and mindless internet entertainment ensure that the complacent consumer/worker masses are too dumb to know they're being royally fucked. 

And because they have freedom and guns, when they do snap they can go and shoot a bunch of other drones or their kids, without bothering the really rich folks.

 Capitalism is working as intended.

 

 

 

 

Actually capitalism is working GREAT...for everyone working !....other than a bunch of butt hurt social warriors that got their collective azz'z kicked in the last election. The economy for tradesmen, factory workers,truck drivers....only 2 years into MAGA and a traditional booming American economy is just getting started...   

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5 hours ago, 3to1 said:

is ecological 'collateral damage' due to rampant, thoughtless capitalism 'self correcting'? what about the really important shit larry, wake the fk up.

 

Bawawwa...ecological collateral damage,,,,take your Greenweenie parade to China,India and the shithole economies where raw air and water pollution is massive....say...where was Libgressive Sea Keepers,Greenpeace,et al...when China was dredging and filling pristine tropical atolls in the South China Sea ?

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8 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Bawawwa...ecological collateral damage,,,,take your Greenweenie parade to China,India and the shithole economies where raw air and water pollution is massive....say...where was Libgressive Sea Keepers,Greenpeace,et al...when China was dredging and filling pristine tropical atolls in the South China Sea ?

In real life I’ve never met someone who says Bawawwa.  Is that some type of stupid word made up by Gateway pundit or  Brietbart?

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2 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Bawawwa...ecological collateral damage,,,,take your Greenweenie parade to China,India and the shithole economies where raw air and water pollution is massive....say...where was Libgressive Sea Keepers,Greenpeace,et al...when China was dredging and filling pristine tropical atolls in the South China Sea ?

Do you agree with the Republican representative from Utah, that smog is harmless?  That was the testimony of an EPA advisory board last week.   Go Trump.  

Are you pro algal bloom on Erie, since it’s convenient for golf courses, manicured lawns and farmers to let excess fertilizer run downstream free of regulation?

 

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2 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

In real life I’ve never met someone who says Bawawwa.  Is that some type of stupid word made up by Gateway pundit or  Brietbart?

I don't think you have ever lived a real life....you and you Libgressives live in some pie in the sky ,pancake tree fantasy world

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28 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Actually capitalism is working GREAT...for everyone working !....other than a bunch of butt hurt social warriors that got their collective azz'z kicked in the last election. The economy for tradesmen, factory workers,truck drivers....only 2 years into MAGA and a traditional booming American economy is just getting started...   

General Motors slashes 14,700 jobs, closes North American factories in massive restructuring

President Trump has blasted General Motors’ plans to lay off 14,700 factory and white-collar workers in North America - saying they should abandon their China operations instead.

‘A dirty deal’: wave of Siemens plant closures hits latest victims in the US

Despite Trump’s promises to halt the trend, 125 people will lose their jobs at an Iowa plant, in addition to other closures and offshoring Siemens announced earlier this year

The Last Major TV Factory in the U.S. Is Shutting Down Because of President Trump's Tariffs

Electrolux plant in Memphis to shut down

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/harley-davidson-workers-stunned-plant-closure-after-tax-cut-n876901

Crocs to close last of manufacturing plants, but says, 'We aren't going anywhere'

  • The footwear company announced that it was closing the last of its manufacturing stores.
  • In a note to CNBC, Crocs representatives wrote that the company would continue to make its signature footwear through third-party manufacturers.

Coal Plants Are Closing, Despite Trump’s Efforts

:bwaha:

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Back to the topic, I don't think its so much that capitalism is bad or corrupt or morally bereft or any of those things.  Capitalism is doing exactly what it's designed to do - make money for those people in the capitalist system.  From the rich billionaire chairman to the guy flipping burgers at Mickey D's.  Capitalism is not meant to be "compassionate", its meant to aggressively make money for its stakeholders, whoever they may be.

The compassionate side and the moral side and the responsible side comes from a mix of gov't regulations and policies and from consumer pressure and opinion.  Gov't policies/Regs and consumer decision making is the check and balance on capitalism.  Informed consumers and informed voters who actually give a shit about the environment, working conditions, living wages, etc. are what provide the balance.  A corporation that willingly gives money away without either consumer or regulatory pressure forcing them to do so are being irresponsible to their shareholders.  Period.

A corporation that professes itself to be "green" and voluntarily does the right thing is not doing it out of any sense of charity.  They are doing it because they made a calculated decision that it is better to get our ahead of something so they look good in the public eye.  If there was no benefit to them, they wouldn't (and shouldn't) do it.

And gov't regulation is there to make sure that things are done correctly when public opinion alone is not enough to steer corporations to do the right thing.

The reason capitalism seems broken is because IMHO gov't has become completely ineffective at correctly regulating capitalism with the right balance.  And its always a balance between too onerous of a regulation that stifles free trade and too little regulation that allows capitalism to run rampant.  The issue is there are no longer any adults in Washington DC that looks at the long view - in either party.  And the reason there are no adults in DC is because the US voting public are a collection of short attention span morons who can't live without a 30 sec soundbite from MSNBC or Fox to tell them what to think and believe.  The voting public doesn't have a long view of anything.  Its instant fucking gratification - "What have you done for me lately" mentality.  And therefore the pols adopt that view so they can get elected.  Therefore the pendulum swings wildly depending on who's in office.  The R's want to de-regulate everything and make us like Somalia and the Ds want to control everything in their version of a marxist utopia.  And its all based on only looking at what works best for the next next election cycle in 2 years time.  You can't have sound regulatory policy if it gets changed to the opposite extreme every 2-4 years.  

I'm a huge fan of gov't regulation of capitalism and of the markets..... in the correct balance.  Too much is obviously bad, but too little is just as bad too.  And I think we are in the "too little" stage right now.  And not because of de-regulation by the R's per se.  But more because the gov't overall is too broken and polarized and ineffective to get anything sensible done and stick to it for the long term.  

Excellent...hard to believe I read this on PA....

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13 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Bawawwa...ecological collateral damage,,,,take your Greenweenie parade to China,India and the shithole economies where raw air and water pollution is massive....say...where was Libgressive Sea Keepers,Greenpeace,et al...when China was dredging and filling pristine tropical atolls in the South China Sea ?

fk you, knob. without stating the obvious, there's nothing silly, trivial or funny about it. the environmental exploitation and decimation I referred to knows no boundaries, and at it's core isn't a political issue. also, take your dumb fuck, irrelevant reichwing flail tactic of childish 'redirection' and stick it up your silly old ass, it won't work here.

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US in decline? Yep. Systems paralyzed? Yep. 

Before you get all patriotic, just look at a few indicators. About the only places the US is gaining are in cronyism, corrupt govt, failing infrastructure, falling lifespans, higher income disparity, etc. 

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28 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

fk you, knob. without stating the obvious, there's nothing silly, trivial or funny about it. the environmental exploitation and decimation I referred to knows no boundaries, and at it's core isn't a political issue. also, take your dumb fuck, irrelevant reichwing flail tactic of childish 'redirection' and stick it up your silly old ass, it won't work here.

Yesterday you called it reachwing.  

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Capitalism requires an adherence to the law of supply and demand.  The issue is that when dealing with oligarchies, the law of supply and demand does not work.  The derivation of this is covered in most higher level economics courses.  It is not just someone's opinion.  As the number of players in any sector comes down to four or five major players, capitalism fails.  The supply/demand curve gets stuck at one point.   This is what is happening in the western world at the moment.  It cannot be regulated out because it becomes behaviour.  

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On 3/31/2019 at 11:16 AM, Sean said:

Is there another way without ditching capitalism entirely?


Sure, add in some spices.  Pure capitalism tastes great for the ruthless prick.  And there are a lot of them.  But add a few tablespoons of democracy, a couple tablespoons of socialism and a few other ingredients and we'd have something everyone would like. 

Democracy and capitalism are like the Hatfield and McCoys.  Psychopathic capitalists hate democracy.  They just want to run the world as they see fit.

But we will never have a healthy balance until we get money out of politics.  And that ain't gonna happen with the greedy public self-servants we keep electing.

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7 minutes ago, Jules said:

Sure, add in some spices.  Pure capitalism tastes great for the ruthless prick.  And there are a lot of them.  But add a few tablespoons of democracy, a couple tablespoons of socialism and a few other ingredients and we'd have something everyone would like. 

Democracy and capitalism are like the Hatfield and McCoys.  Capitalists hate democracy.socialism and Big ham handed governemnt    They just want to run the world as they see fit.

But we will never have a healthy balance until we get money out of politics.  And that ain't gonna happen with the greedy public self-servants we keep electing.

 

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55 minutes ago, Jules said:

Sure, add in some spices.  Pure capitalism tastes great for the ruthless prick.  And there are a lot of them.  But add a few tablespoons of democracy, a couple tablespoons of socialism and a few other ingredients and we'd have something everyone would like. 

You probably are unaware what you describe above is what we have in the US right now.  However, there is one side that wants to “fundamentally change” America into a socialist country.  Some of us don’t want that because...history.

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5 minutes ago, J28 said:

You probably are unaware what you describe above is what we have in the US right now.  However, there is one side that wants to “fundamentally change” America into a socialist country.  Some of us don’t want that because...history.

They want the US to bow to Globalism One World Government...witness EU...and behind the scenes  it is a combo of Russia and China pulling the strings...sad so many "educated" westerners are falling for the trap..take a trip to Paris and see what a 3rd world shit hole it has turned into since the massive ME -African continent  migration 3-4 years ago....unrecognizable with ghetto's just beyond the tourist centers and even those are filled with street vendors of the recent migration 

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14 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

They want the US to bow to Globalism One World Government...witness EU...and behind the scenes  it is a combo of Russia and China pulling the strings...sad so many "educated" westerners are falling for the trap..take a trip to Paris and see what a 3rd world shit hole it has turned into since the massive ME -African continent  migration 3-4 years ago....unrecognizable with ghetto's just beyond the tourist centers and even those are filled with street vendors of the recent migration 

What is it with you guys and bowing?  You probaby have nightmares about the queen of England breaking into your house and making you bow.

Also you forgot to use  “before the alter” which I  presume has something to do with your fear of Paganism.

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Just now, Fakenews said:

What is it with you guys and bowing?  You probaby have nightmares about the queen of England breaking into your house and making you bow.

Also you forgot to use  “before the alter” which I  presume has something to do with your fear of Paganism.

you are an idiot...

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3 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Also you forgot to use  “before the alter” which I  presume has something to do with your fear of Paganism.

It could indicate a preference for Bruce over Caitlyn Jenner.

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35 minutes ago, J28 said:

You probably are unaware what you describe above is what we have in the US right now.  However, there is one side that wants to “fundamentally change” America into a socialist country.  Some of us don’t want that because...history.

No, what we have right now is a ruling class who legally bribe politicians to skew things in their favor.  That ruling class does not want democracy for all and they definitely don't want any form of socialism - like Social Security.  

The spin may be there is "one side" that wants pure socialism but, if you do your homework, you know it's just spin in an attempt to get the gullible onboard with supporting a ruling class.  I know some pretty liberal-minded people and not one of them wants pure socialism.  But the hard line conservatives I know all believe the spin because they get their information from a biased source.  No fact checking needed if their beliefs are affirmed.

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On 3/31/2019 at 10:04 AM, Fakenews said:

Interesting bit from Axios that points out we are a nation of monopoly’s and that capitalism left to its own devices inevitably goes bad.  I personally think we need to embrace a hybrid capitalism/socialism model thatI like to call crappy socialism which I will expand on later. This is polling well among Americans and I think the eventual Dem nominee will ride this growing conviction that our government and economic model is broken to an overwhelming victory in 2020.

https://www.axios.com/iowa-country-of-monopolies-7de113b7-2860-4fa2-83ea-32c5b6766c15.html

Can you name one monopoly in the US not created by the government?  Or just one monopoly at all for that matter?

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1 hour ago, Rat's ass said:

The economic system we are in today may be defined as Crony-capitalism, Corporate capitalism, Monopoly capitalism, Fascism or a system where the mega-corporations and banking cartels are in bed with government to the mutual benefit of each. It's not free market. To the gullible mass educated fake liberal buffoons like Jules the socialist system where the individual is nothing, and only something in relationship to the collective and or "the state" is the solution. However what he fails to realize is that for any socialist system to function at all, you need to have a small group of elite individuals or a "ruling class" at the top that are in control of all the wealth. 

You're 1/2 way there.

You got the criticism of the current system right.

But totally blew it on the definition of socialism.

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An American once said to me that "unfettered capitalism is immoral and unfettered socialism is stupid." I guess the trick is to find the right balance. 

I think that many of the "pure capitalists" here would like a return to 19th century capitalism no unions,  shit wages, unsafe work places, child labor.....need I go on? 

Again I am always gob-smacked by the simplistic thinking of extreme righties. 

BTW I will keep saying until some of you retards get it  social programs is not communism.

I don't lecture me about being a commie or socialist I am successful entrepreneur and I think single payer health care is best policy of a number of other bad policies. Like Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest. "     

 

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1 hour ago, HuronBouy said:

An American once said to me that "unfettered capitalism is immoral and unfettered socialism is stupid." I guess the trick is to find the right balance. 

I think that many of the "pure capitalists" here would like a return to 19th century capitalism no unions,  shit wages, unsafe work places, child labor.....need I go on? 

Again I am always gob-smacked by the simplistic thinking of extreme righties. 

BTW I will keep saying until some of you retards get it  social programs is not communism.

I don't lecture me about being a commie or socialist I am successful entrepreneur and I think single payer health care is best policy of a number of other bad policies. Like Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest. "     

 

Why do you think a more pure capitalism would return to anything like the past?  Why do you think your wages would go down?  What regulations are there in place now that keep your wages where they are?

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6 minutes ago, jzk said:

Why do you think a more pure capitalism would return to anything like the past?  Why do you think your wages would go down?  What regulations are there in place now that keep your wages where they are?

Pretty much every blue collar worker is in high demand as under the growing economy...millennial Dem voters with college degrees in Social Studies working at Starbucks not so much

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1 minute ago, jzk said:

Or maybe you could make a case for something.

why? you can't understand basic statistics and economics, anything more complex than "Republicans are great" 

why bother discussing policy with you?

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

why? you can't understand basic statistics and economics, anything more complex than "Republicans are great" 

why bother discussing policy with you?

You don't have to.  But then why post here?  

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

Why do you think a more pure capitalism would return to anything like the past?  Why do you think your wages would go down?  What regulations are there in place now that keep your wages where they are?

Like I said simplistic thinking.....I WOULD LIKE TO RETURN TO THE PAST. In any case look up the terms "minimum wage" and "cost of living" see if they jive. They don't here and sure as fuck don't in your country. While you are at it look up the term "working poor" ask yourself is this fair? Ask yourself without ACA how close are the working poor  from being decimated by a health issue. In a country that is as rich as yours simple acts like paying a fair wage and protecting people is missing on the right. What makes you guys so fucking angry and mean? I just don't get it.   I have gotten in to "discussions" with you in the past and I am am once again curtailing this one. 

Make your day go kick a homeless person in balls. 

 

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3 minutes ago, HuronBouy said:

Like I said simplistic thinking.....I WOULD LIKE TO RETURN TO THE PAST. In any case look up the terms "minimum wage" and "cost of living" see if they jive. They don't here and sure as fuck don't in your country. While you are at it look up the term "working poor" ask yourself is this fair? Ask yourself without ACA how close are the working poor  from being decimated by a health issue. In a country that is as rich as yours simple acts like paying a fair wage and protecting people is missing on the right. What makes you guys so fucking angry and mean? I just don't get it.   I have gotten in to "discussions" with you in the past and I am am once again curtailing this one. 

Make your day go kick a homeless person in balls. 

 

The "I would like to return to the past" is a made up strawman.  

Why does any employer pay more than the minimum wage?

What employer would pay someone more than they are worth?

If your employer doesn't pay you a "fair" wage, what is preventing you from getting another job?

What makes you guys so fucking stupid that you are willing to punish the poor for your stupid ideology?

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1 minute ago, jzk said:

The "I would like to return to the past" is a made up strawman.  no it is not I said WOULD LIKE wht is fucking hard to understand holy fuck market forces in absence of collective bargaining would TEND to drive wages down. 

Why does any employer pay more than the minimum wage? UNIONS

What employer would pay someone more than they are worth? none do that is why there are strikes 

If your employer doesn't pay you a "fair" wage, what is preventing you from getting another job? if a fair wage does not exist where would I go??? 

What makes you guys so fucking stupid that you are willing to punish the poor for your stupid ideology? I am advocating for higher wages and no regression to 19th centrury or even early 20th century capitalist behaviour HOW DOE THAT punish the poor. 

Again the level of thinking is mind boggling you stick your immoral "kill the poor  ideology" and I will tend to try and look after people less fortunate than I

now  go back to your survival bunker and have a can of Spam.  

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Just now, HuronBouy said:

Again the level of thinking is mind boggling you stick your immoral "kill the poor  ideology" and I will tend to try and look after people less fortunate than I

now  go back to your survival bunker and have a can of Spam.  

You are the one killing the poor with your fucked up ideology.

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3 minutes ago, HuronBouy said:

How are old are you, 8?? 

"I know you are but what am I"

You made no case for anything.  All you did was throw insults.  Talk about childish.  Your ideology fucks over poor people.

The only way for people to earn a living wage is for them to equip themselves with skills that are valuable in the marketplace and apply them effectively.

If you want a living wage, maybe don't get a job as a Walmart cashier.  Or at least maybe have a plan that gets you transferred to the automotive department where you can learn a skill.

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You can always tell when someone can't defend their position - they resort to name calling.  But when you judge others you do not define them, you define yourself.

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7 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

I can see why you got 1498 downvotes.  Seems like the forum has shown you undeserved mercy recently.

Were you able to come up with a single example of a monopoly yet?

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29 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

aww, jerkz believes in the skills myth. what do you expect from a moron that thinks you can learn everything for free on the internet?

Where specifically did he say anything approximating this projection, Jiblets?   He's right - you don't pay $20/hr for a job that's worth $6 - and if you don't want to be stuck making $6 an hour?  It's YOUR individual responsibility to improve your capabilities so that you're worth more than that.  

What about that is a myth?  

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55 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

 Stop confusing personal virtue with economics.

Businesses pay $20 for $6 labor all the time. Why? Because they can make money doing it.

They might pay it some of the time, for a while.  But they are going to tend to pay $6 for $6 labor ultimately.  Otherwise, they will be put out of business.

If your business plan is to get a business to pay you $20 for your $6 labor, then you really are an idiot.

Or, you could just make yourself worth $20.  Anyone can.  Even you.

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2 minutes ago, Laker said:

AT&T.  It had to be broken up.

The OP is in the present tense:

"Interesting bit from Axios that points out we are a nation of monopoly’s and that capitalism left to its own devices inevitably goes bad."

So I ask again.  Can anyone cite a case of a monopoly given that we are a nation of them?

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1 minute ago, jzk said:

The OP is in the present tense:

"Interesting bit from Axios that points out we are a nation of monopoly’s and that capitalism left to its own devices inevitably goes bad."

So I ask again.  Can anyone cite a case of a monopoly given that we are a nation of them?

Monopolies, not a lot.  Oligopolies, many.  There are three large providers of food (supermarkets) at the moment.  Others from farm markets to convenience stores exist, but their dollar volume is less.

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2 minutes ago, jzk said:

The OP is in the present tense:

"Interesting bit from Axios that points out we are a nation of monopoly’s and that capitalism left to its own devices inevitably goes bad."

So I ask again.  Can anyone cite a case of a monopoly given that we are a nation of them?

Oh...Amazon, Facebook, Google

 

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So the local Reich denies that the US economy is dominated by monopolies? 

Now that is stupid . . 

And the thesis that the oligarchy has targeted the middle class for destruction is quite correct . . 

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7 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

So the local Reich denies that the US economy is dominated by monopolies? 

Now that is stupid . . 

And the thesis that the oligarchy has targeted the middle class for destruction is quite correct . . 

Can you name one of these dominating monopolies?

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10 minutes ago, jzk said:

What market share do those companies have?  Do you even know what their markets are?

Their markets are you.   Actually, for Facebook, their product is you and their market is the buyer's of your information.  

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On 4/1/2019 at 12:38 AM, Happy said:

It's a matter of perspective. From the point of view of the 1%, capitalism in the USA is in great shape.

The current administration has provided nice tax breaks for the top end, overturning environmental protections where it can, and fostering a culture where lies are common and unremarkable. No doubt the next administration will similarly be pushed to play nice.

At the same time, crappy education and mindless internet entertainment ensure that the complacent consumer/worker masses are too dumb to know they're being royally fucked. 

And because they have freedom and guns, when they do snap they can go and shoot a bunch of other drones or their kids, without bothering the really rich folks.

 Capitalism is working as intended.

Nailed it. Our "version" of capitalism isn't broken, it has been a runaway success.

The broken part is our oversight of capitalism and our self-responsibility. Since about 1911 or so, we have allowed corporations to get everything they asked. The problem isn't corporations, it's us being lazy to define our own collective futures. We just ceded that to our products.

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Where specifically did he say anything approximating this projection, Jiblets?   He's right - you don't pay $20/hr for a job that's worth $6 - and if you don't want to be stuck making $6 an hour?  It's YOUR individual responsibility to improve your capabilities so that you're worth more than that.  

What about that is a myth?  

Right.... because low-wage individuals often found colleges and technical institutes, so they can better themselves.

-DSK

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7 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Their markets are you.   Actually, for Facebook, their product is you and their market is the buyer's of your information.  

Facebook does not sell your information.  It sells advertising access to you.  As do a number of other services.  There is no monopoly here.  Try again.

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1 minute ago, Laker said:

Yes, college of engineering as well.

The AMA is much more like a trade union than a monopoly.  You would be opposed to trade unions as well, right?

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38 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
56 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 He's right - you don't pay $20/hr for a job that's worth $6  - and if you don't want to be stuck making $6 an hour?  It's YOUR individual responsibility to improve your capabilities so that you're worth more than that. 

 Stop confusing personal virtue with economics.

 Businesses pay $20 for $6 labor all the time. Why? Because they can make money doing it.

The man has a point Chesapeake. And the contrary is true too - if a business can pay $6 for $20 worth of work, they'll do exactly that. Capitalism is not about paying what something is worth - it's about paying the least you can for labour & resources whilst still turning a profit.

The price of labour does have a floor, however, set by the living standards one wishes to allow society to fall to. That floor is the "living wage" for that living standard. That's what it costs to keep the labour fed, clothed, and productive in the society you wish to live in. Regardless of whether the employer thinks standing around doing nothing for most of the day is worth a living wage, that's what it costs to produce. Asking that the person accept less is like trying to get physical resources for less than it costs to produce. Everyone accepts the latter is ridiculous, but no-one (on the right at least) wants to accept that the former is exactly the same thing. 

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5 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Pretty much every blue collar worker is in high demand as under the growing economy...millennial Dem voters with college degrees in Social Studies working at Starbucks not so much

:lol:

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2 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

The man has a point Chesapeake. And the contrary is true too - if a business can pay $6 for $20 worth of work, they'll do exactly that. Capitalism is not about paying what something is worth - it's about paying the least you can for labour & resources whilst still turning a profit.

The price of labour does have a floor, however, set by the living standards one wishes to allow society to fall to. That floor is the "living wage" for that living standard. That's what it costs to keep the labour fed, clothed, and productive in the society you wish to live in. Regardless of whether the employer thinks standing around doing nothing for most of the day is worth a living wage, that's what it costs to produce. Asking that the person accept less is like trying to get physical resources for less than it costs to produce. Everyone accepts the latter is ridiculous, but no-one (on the right at least) wants to accept that the former is exactly the same thing. 

Guns are cheap. If you have guns, you can get people to work for very little money, and obtain other resources for the cost of the guns plus transport.

What we are experiencing is more akin to feudalism than capitalism. Politics and force is used to determine the price of labor and other resources, and the profits are increasingly allocated to the benefit of very few.

The economic collapse of the Soviet Union was largely due to the workers saying "fuck this, I'm not working for the big party bosses when I have such a shitty life and no hope for improvement." 2 generations later the US looks like it's on the verge of the same upheaval.

-DSK

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12 minutes ago, jzk said:

Facebook does not sell your information.  It sells advertising access to you.  As do a number of other services.  There is no monopoly here.  Try again.

Yeah, you sure know your business models, all righty.   

What the fuck do you think causes those targeted ads for cheap Mexican resorts to pop up as soon as you post that picture of you modeling your ribbed Trojan condoms in a Tijuana Motel 6.  

 

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12 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

The man has a point Chesapeake. And the contrary is true too - if a business can pay $6 for $20 worth of work, they'll do exactly that. Capitalism is not about paying what something is worth - it's about paying the least you can for labour & resources whilst still turning a profit.

The price of labour does have a floor, however, set by the living standards one wishes to allow society to fall to. That floor is the "living wage" for that living standard. That's what it costs to keep the labour fed, clothed, and productive in the society you wish to live in. Regardless of whether the employer thinks standing around doing nothing for most of the day is worth a living wage, that's what it costs to produce. Asking that the person accept less is like trying to get physical resources for less than it costs to produce. Everyone accepts the latter is ridiculous, but no-one (on the right at least) wants to accept that the former is exactly the same thing. 

The floor is what another business is willing to pay the employee with those skills.  

There is no reason that every job need pay a living wage.  What if I want to hire a college student to sit on my boat and do homework and the college student wants to do it for a few extra bucks?  I get to be sure my boat is ok, and the student gets a nice place to do homework.  Why is it your business what terms we agree on?

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6 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Yeah, you sure know your business models, all righty.   

What the fuck do you think causes those targeted ads for cheap Mexican resorts to pop up as soon as you post that picture of you modeling your ribbed Trojan condoms in a Tijuana Motel 6.  

 

Facebook sells access to you.  Just like google does.  Not a monopoly.  Try again.

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7 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

if a business can pay $6 for $20 worth of work, they'll do exactly that. Capitalism is not about paying what something is worth - it's about paying the least you can for labour & resources whilst still turning a profit.

 

In the real world, Capitalism is about paying enough for the desired retention rate. A company that needs to invest in skills for a desired result; quality, productivity, safety or appearance (the escort trade?) will mmatch the local standard. A gardener in Beverly Hills is worth more than a gardener in des Moines for example. A fork lift operator in Chicago is worth more than  the same in Sturgis.

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9 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

 

What the fuck do you think causes those targeted ads for cheap Mexican resorts to pop up as soon as you post that picture of you modeling your ribbed Trojan condoms in a Tijuana Motel 6.  

 

Personal experience there?? 

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6 minutes ago, warbird said:

In the real world, Capitalism is about paying enough for the desired retention rate. A company that needs to invest in skills for a desired result; quality, productivity, safety or appearance (the escort trade?) will mmatch the local standard. A gardener in Beverly Hills is worth more than a gardener in des Moines for example. A fork lift operator in Chicago is worth more than  the same in Sturgis.

It's also true that the costs of living in those places are different...... gee one might almost think that a community can affect business, what do you think odds are that businesses also affect their community?

-DSK

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

It's also true that the costs of living in those places are different...... gee one might almost think that a community can affect business, what do you think odds are that businesses also affect their community?

-DSK

Yes.

Business management has a responsibility to factor in the local environ from which they draw their staff. If a staff member is living on the poverty line, this will impact their work, their family and community. How can you expect your company to grow when you're killing the self worth of your employees?

Minimum wage exists for those who do the bare minimum their role requires. A 'normal' employee should be above minimum wage, always.

But of equal importance, management need to have empathy and care about their employees.

It's not just financial health when you look at the impact to the community, but mental health too.  

 

 

 

 

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The Reich here does not get history . .  

Look at the trends in the economy by decade and occupation . . 

Meat packing in the US used to be a middle-class job - vacations, health care, kids to college . .  and etc. 

then it was targeted for destruction, along with the middle class in general

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/250/meat-packing.html

this happened in industry after industry . .  

capitalism promises a better life - but that is not what is has delivered. 

Bring back the kick-ass unions !!

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8 hours ago, jzk said:

Can you name one monopoly in the US not created by the government?  Or just one monopoly at all for that matter?

Try reading the OP article . . then read you some Liz Warren, Robert Reich and Jim Hightower . .

And yes, we get that there are some differences between oligopolies, monopolies, and variations on the theme.  

Here is an excellent short tutorial by Mr. Reich 

(I do not post here for JZK - who will neither read nor heed)

 

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1 minute ago, AJ Oliver said:

Try reading the OP article . . then read you some Liz Warren, Robert Reich and Jim Hightower . .

And yes, we get that there are some differences between oligopolies, monopolies, and variations on the theme.  

Here is an excellent short tutorial by Mr. Reich 

(I do not post here for JZK - who will neither read nor heed)

 

Yes, Robert Reich doesn't seem to know what a monopoly is either.  

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23 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

You are confusing things again. You raise wages for new hires to get asses in seats. You keep wages for existing employees as low as you can for the retention rate. 

You pretty much missed the latest edition of HR Quarterly, eh?

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