toadboy65

I14 training wheels

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I had posted a topic in the dinghy section asking for suggestions on how to singlehand my recently acquired International 14. The consensus was to "sell it and buy a different boat". That was probably good advice, which I have not taken.

So, my decision was to go the "training wheels" route.  I sort of see the Weta tri as an inspiration, as the dimensions are not far from that of the I14, and still seems fast and portable.  The current setup on my I14 is pretty much tailor made for these sorts of modifications. The hiking rails are easily to remove or modify.

boat3.jpg.09b2c50b33d77964751469da411c60cb.jpg

I set myself a goal of not making any changes to the original boat that could not easily be undone, in case my scheme proves to be unsuccessful, and also to try to use materials I already have on hand.

I made the blanks for the amas out of extruded polystyrene, which I have lots of. I kept going back and forth about whether to make a mold from one of the blanks, but decided to just go surfboard style. I made two foam forms, which are mostly hollow, but have carbon and aluminum supporting structure for the attachment points. Here are the forms as they are now:

amas.thumb.jpg.bc7c42f5e1ea5f9f98dbcadd371f4051.jpg

As I wrote, I sort of used the Weta floats as an inspiration, although mine are a little fuller in cross section. Covering will be carbon cloth reinforced with kevlar tape at critical points, then covered with thin s-glass, with a final clear coat of epoxy. I hope to keep the weight under that of the Weta, and I always have the very messy option of melting out the foam, which would also necessitate re-engineering the hard attachment points.

I plan to use a temporary mounting structure, so I can play with angles and distances, then fabricate carbon arms later.  I am also leaning towards having the structure telescope out from the hull, instead of needing to remove them completely for transport. I am still playing with that idea, and how that would affect righting after capsize.

Anyway, I figured I would post my progress here.

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Sorry, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Could be the rum........

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Fantastic! There are several threads about custom small trimarans that you can check for ideas. There is one of a monohull with floats just like yours.

Two warnings: to sail well, the beams need to have a good clearance from the water and it needs some dihedral, but not too much. Also, you need some method to alter the geometry to right it in case of capsize. Fill with water, retract, or fold, otherwise righting will be very difficult. Good luck

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Cool boat.  Go dihedral.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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10 hours ago, sail(plane) said:

. Fill with water, retract, or fold, ...

That is an issue I have been giving a lot of thought. I am primarily a monohull sailor, although I have lots of offshore time in outrigger canoes. One big advantage of outrigger canoes over ocean kayaks is that you can always get back on the boat, even in high winds and heavy seas.

Right now, I am thinking of retraction, with a spring loaded catch and a lanyard I can access from the stern. But I anticipate some calm lake practice sessions without the mast. If I keep the foam in the amas, there will still be way too much flotation even when flooded. Although there are channels and voids built in for drainage and weight, about 1/3 of the volume is still taken up by foam.

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1 hour ago, toadboy65 said:

That is an issue I have been giving a lot of thought. I am primarily a monohull sailor, although I have lots of offshore time in outrigger canoes. One big advantage of outrigger canoes over ocean kayaks is that you can always get back on the boat, even in high winds and heavy seas.

Right now, I am thinking of retraction, with a spring loaded catch and a lanyard I can access from the stern. But I anticipate some calm lake practice sessions without the mast. If I keep the foam in the amas, there will still be way too much flotation even when flooded. Although there are channels and voids built in for drainage and weight, about 1/3 of the volume is still taken up by foam.

In case you haven´t seen it, check the dynamics. I agree that the foam in your design would be a problem for capsize recovery

 

 

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Could always use the 'ol Hobie Cat Righting Bag trick.

 

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Looks like a decent Bieker 2. Sell it to someone to use as designed and buy a Weta.

You are asking for trouble if you intend to single-hand a 14. Floats or not. You can get into a bad situation rather quickly.

Righting it from a capsize or complete turtle position will be incredibly difficult for a single person unless you are about 250 lbs and super fit. It will be even harder to right with foam floats. Keep in mind that those rack supports are designed for downward force (supporting 2 crew on wire) not upward force from an opposing float...

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, bhyde said:

Could always use the 'ol Hobie Cat Righting Bag trick.

 

a trimaran tends to quickly invert and then the water bag is no good

but you know this, bhyde!

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2 hours ago, sail(plane) said:

a trimaran tends to quickly invert

That has largely kept me off of multihulls for ocean crossings or big waves. My OC-1 is an exception to that rule, as a regular ocean kayak can kill you if you get tossed out.  As for the Hobie video, it looks like he started with a masthead float, so he was way ahead of the game before he even started with the water bag.

I decided specifically to avoid as much as possible any modifications to the original boat because of the possibility that I will either find something else to trade for, or just find that my idea is unworkable. I am even planning on keeping the original hiking rails intact, but fabricating new supports for the amas, and using the original mounting points. I am fairly confident that those mounts are strong enough for my plans. In my misadventures last season, the rails took a great deal of unplanned stress with no problems.

 

 

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11 hours ago, sail(plane) said:

a trimaran tends to quickly invert and then the water bag is no good

but you know this, bhyde!

Yeah, probably a bad idea, but It's perfect if you need a bag of water for some reason :)

Having also owned an I14, I can see problems trying to right the Skiffamaran with 100sqft+ of main/jib, 350sqft+ of kite and a pair of carbon/foam dildos conspiring to prevent a timely return to normal operation. And you know it's going to auger in when the kite is up. That's what I14's like to do. And a solo bareaway (bearaway?) in anything over 12kts with the I14's massive sail area sounds very much the opposite of what many people call "fun."  We're definitely going to want some video.

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Don't want to rain more on the parade but if you are going to use the cool donor boat with those floats I would reduce the rig big time. Trying to put together what others are saying and my experience with some mongrel boats, the more righting moment, the more power, the faster you go, the easier you flip and the harder to get up.

Instead of playing in my twilight years on a mongrel, I hocked the jewels and for my little toy am on to my second Weta. Therein lies a big difference.

The Weta is an awesome boat but people need to realise it is a slow multihull and a fast monohull. Weird shit I know but it flogs all my mates on fast dinghies up to 505/sharpie/16 foot skiff in the right weather, but compared to basic beach cats is only faster than a H14 but not as fast as a H16 and much slower than most Nacras in most conditions. This is because of the VERY VERY SAFE floats that are low volume compared to the main hull. SLOW = SAFE. If you push a Weta hard the leeward float digs in and she parks till you wake up. Many have asked for bigger Weta floats which would be faster, need bigger beams, more dollars, and would flip more often. In a few years of pushing hard and winning a few big races I still have not been able to flip a Weta. As usual with boats there have been some races in extreme light or strong conditions where we have beaten foioing A's, Nacras, blah blah, blah, but not usually.

The point of the above paragraph is to address the design philosophy of the I14 + floats package for your own safety. As a comparison, my last Weta solo cruise in 15 plus knots was a day trip around all the Moreton Bay southern islands with lunch on board, and I laughed all day at how much fun I was having. Could not have done that solo on any Nacra Hobie 505 Sharpie Skiff at 61 years old. 

Peter H

   

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I have a decent practice main that I am putting slugs and reef points on, so that it can be raised and dropped without all the drama that the original beach-rigged setup has.  I will not go out for real until I have a good system in place for righting, and have practiced it.

I make no claims of being another Peter Freuchen, but this is a fairly tame project compared to some of the things I have done pretty regularly. Assuming I can maintain personal safety, the biggest negative consequence I anticipate is that I find the idea is unworkable, and end up using the floats on my sailing canoe.

That being said, if anyone has a boat of equivalent value but would be better for singlehanding, and needs a clean I-14, pm me.

But I want to thank everyone who is posting here with observations and advice.  I am sure there are a number of things that are probably obvious to experienced multihull sailors, but I would not think of before finding out through hard experience, if at all.

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6 hours ago, plywoodboy said:

Don't want to rain more on the parade but if you are going to use the cool donor boat with those floats I would reduce the rig big time. Trying to put together what others are saying and my experience with some mongrel boats, the more righting moment, the more power, the faster you go, the easier you flip and the harder to get up.

Instead of playing in my twilight years on a mongrel, I hocked the jewels and for my little toy am on to my second Weta. Therein lies a big difference.

The Weta is an awesome boat but people need to realise it is a slow multihull and a fast monohull. Weird shit I know but it flogs all my mates on fast dinghies up to 505/sharpie/16 foot skiff in the right weather, but compared to basic beach cats is only faster than a H14 but not as fast as a H16 and much slower than most Nacras in most conditions. This is because of the VERY VERY SAFE floats that are low volume compared to the main hull. SLOW = SAFE. If you push a Weta hard the leeward float digs in and she parks till you wake up. Many have asked for bigger Weta floats which would be faster, need bigger beams, more dollars, and would flip more often. In a few years of pushing hard and winning a few big races I still have not been able to flip a Weta. As usual with boats there have been some races in extreme light or strong conditions where we have beaten foioing A's, Nacras, blah blah, blah, but not usually.

The point of the above paragraph is to address the design philosophy of the I14 + floats package for your own safety. As a comparison, my last Weta solo cruise in 15 plus knots was a day trip around all the Moreton Bay southern islands with lunch on board, and I laughed all day at how much fun I was having. Could not have done that solo on any Nacra Hobie 505 Sharpie Skiff at 61 years old. 

Peter H

   

Great, accurate, realistic contribution and description of the Weta.  As I read it I thought I was looking in a mirror having just bought my second Weta after a 5 year hiatus.

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10 hours ago, unShirley said:

Great, accurate, realistic contribution and description of the Weta.  As I read it I thought I was looking in a mirror having just bought my second Weta after a 5 year hiatus.

This is kind of weird. I'm also on my second Weta. Were should start a club with PlywoodBoy. Originally had #151, sold it to play with an A-Cat and an F-24, then bought #572. It by far gets more use than any other boat I've owned. Easy to sail, fast, safe, and rock reliable. It's just a great package.

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The I14 looks way too heavy and clumsy.  What a horrible bitch of a time righting the damn thing!  A  Hobie 14 does not stay stuck on its side like this thing.  How much does it weigh?  Now- if the whole thing was carbon it might be worthwhile fooling with.  Its like the girl single-handing/righting that Weta way offshore in New Zealand- having to flood and sink the outrigger to right the boat! Sheesh.  Even bungeeing a 12 foot carbon monkey pole under the cat to rig out then right it works great in 2 minutes with 125 pound skipper----better than any of these horrid schemes you folks are using.  A-class cats are righted and back in the race in a minute....well maybe 2 minutes.  I am thinking of the Mug Race- singlehanding my woodie A-cat (see thumbnail) , crashed 4 times (once was the damn helicopter) while jibing with the chute up and still finished 6th.   

  

Edited by dacarls
had to add the helicopter story

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48 minutes ago, dacarls said:

Now- if the whole thing was carbon

The I14 is very light and all carbon. My son and I can easily pick it up and carry it around. close to 150 pounds.  It has a similar weight to the Weta main hull, but is about 10 inches wider than the Weta. I plan to keep the width with amas deployed the same as the Weta as well, which will make the iako a little shorter.

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1 hour ago, dacarls said:

The I14 looks way too heavy and clumsy.  What a horrible bitch of a time righting the damn thing!  A  Hobie 14 does not stay stuck on its side like this thing.  How much does it weigh?  Now- if the whole thing was carbon it might be worthwhile fooling with.  Its like the girl single-handing/righting that Weta way offshore in New Zealand- having to flood and sink the outrigger to right the boat! Sheesh.  Even bungeeing a 12 foot carbon monkey pole under the cat to rig out then right it works great in 2 minutes with 125 pound skipper----better than any of these horrid schemes you folks are using.  A-class cats are righted and back in the race in a minute....well maybe 2 minutes.  I am thinking of the Mug Race- singlehanding my woodie A-cat (see thumbnail) , crashed 4 times (once was the damn helicopter) while jibing with the chute up and still finished 6th.   

  

Dacarl, of course having to flood an ama is horrid... yes you could right a cat 10 times in the time it takes to right a trimaran... but then a cat will capsize 100 times for each weta capsize... choose your compromise! 

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OK, well I happened to have sailed 14's and multihulls so I have a thought or two. Not sure I would go down this path but given that you're going to, lets make the best of it.

Number one best way to improve your single handed I14 experience is going to be putting a spoiler on that there rudder thing. A lot of 14 drama is at the weather mark and a spoiler rudder helps big time with that and is not incompatible with your other mods. keeping the bow up is a good strategy on these boats. After that, it comes down to not falling over sideways when you are downspeed and loaded up. The amas should help with that. Should.

Thinking of dihedral in the ama's, perhaps consider the radius of the crew on the end of the wire stepping out onto the rail then out to the Ama's. Keeping all those in line would make it easier to trap if its a smooth transition and would help you to define how much dihedral you want etc. By inline I mean as you go further from the center of the boat it would be nice to not have to keep adjusting the height on the wire. Unless of course you're just going to go straight to the rack or the ama rail. 

If you're trapping off the ama, make sure you have a tough enough deck as well. We toasted our first version of Alpha with a too light deck and after about 4 sails it sounded like I was walking on the kitchen floor having spilled a box of Captain Crunch cereal. Not a good look. That includes the top six inches of the hull where you are putting your feet while on the trap.

Don't forget that if you're driving around with an ama in the water it'll also change the helm of the boat substantially, seemingly adding a bunch of lee helm if the leeward ama is in the water. You're essentially tripping over it, which will also be the case if it loads up on you in a puff etc.

Don't forget longer tiller extensions too.

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5 hours ago, blunted said:

a spoiler on that there rudder thing.

Ok, I am stumped. Do you mean like a foiling rudder? My understanding is that doing so properly would require attitude controls, either on the cassette or the rudder itself. But that is an area in which I am not expert. However, I have the ability here to manufacture pretty much anything, if I can come up with decent plans, and understand what I am fabricating. I certainly had some issues with the rudder last season. It is very difficult to install from inside the boat, and too long to install in shallow water.

This project is moving smoothly along, although I am spending most of my time on other projects. The amas are shaped, covered with the first layers of carbon, and most of the kevlar reinforcement is in place. An outer covering of S-glass will go on later in the week. They are not going to be anywhere near as smooth as if I had made concave molds, but are light and very stiff.  I milled the parts for the ama attachment fittings today, and will get my son to TIG weld the parts together tomorrow.  I am using 2024 aluminum, which is sort of tricky to weld properly.  The rest of my fittings will attach mechanically, but the angled tubing to plate interface of the ama fittings needs welding.

The original rails were 12 inches outboard of the gunwale of the boat. I plan to put them back in pretty much the same place. The amas will be outboard another 15 inches, and probably a little low to trap off of. I do plan to beef up the ama tops some more, as it is inevitable that they will take some abuse. I am considering a diagonal stay from the hull to the outrigger aft and outboard, to take the strain when I crash the ama into something. Which I will certainly do.

I do have carbon rudder extensions. They are not shown in the images of the boat because the aluminum fittings are in another room waiting to be anodized. There are also some aluminum support struts for the elevated jib track waiting to be anodized.

6 hours ago, blunted said:

Thinking of dihedral

I have been trying to work out the geometry of everything, including dihedral measurements and angle of attack. I am not a multihull expert, so there is a lot of guessing going on.  Right now I am planning on the keel of the main hull and amas being parallel (unless I find that a degree or so of inboard angle offsets the drag), and each downwind ama will be upright when the main hull is heeled 10.5 degrees. I just don't have a clear idea what the dihedral should be, so I am manufacturing the fittings so that I can pretty easily substitute different lengths of tubing to experiment and achieve the desired result.

But overall, this is an interesting project, and if I was not doing this, I would be doing some other absurd project. As long as I wrap it up by the time it finally warms up, everything is good.  I will try to put some more images up in a day or so.

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Show your homework, let's see your design sketches, soooooo much easier than talking about it.

By spoiler I mean I-14 rudder foil. Most modern 14's have a foil about 8" from the bottom of the foil that is about 1.5 sf in area, probably with a span of about 26". The whole rudder angle is adjustable back and forth, which affects the angle of the foil to make it pull the transom down in the water or lift it up. upwind you take a little lift from the rudder foil and it tricks the boat into thinking its longer. Downwind you want lots of downforce from the rudder, to help keep the bow up and out of the water, this keeps you from pitchpoling, the most exciting part of 14 sailing.

 

 

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i14-gallery-2.jpg.dc05de540da621e5e4b7a018815599cd.jpg OK, maybe not 8" from the bottom, but you get the idea.

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28 minutes ago, toadboy65 said:

 

I have been trying to work out the geometry of everything, including dihedral measurements and angle of attack. I am not a multihull expert, so there is a lot of guessing going on.  Right now I am planning on the keel of the main hull and amas being parallel (unless I find that a degree or so of inboard angle offsets the drag), and each downwind ama will be upright when the main hull is heeled 10.5 degrees. I just don't have a clear idea what the dihedral should be, so I am manufacturing the fittings so that I can pretty easily substitute different lengths of tubing to experiment and achieve the desired result.

 

That's sort of where this whole project is somewhat muddled. A fourteen wants to be flat, even a little heeled to windward. Ama's kick in when the boat is heeled. You need to also decide how deep in the water will the boat be when the amas kick in? This is affected by you just being one guy, you don't immerse the boat so much unless you're a fat fuck like me, and even then its not as much as two full crew in the boat.

drawings my boy, drawings, from the back, the side, above, all of them. This will set you on the path to answering these questions.

For all this work it sounds like you still have a boat with narrow beam, but you know, I could comment properly if you showed me a drawing.

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2 hours ago, blunted said:

I could comment properly if you showed me a drawing.

When I was writing my last comment, I was thinking about my concept drawings back at the shop, and how helpful they would be in this discussion. I will be sure to get those up tomorrow. I absolutely appreciate your sharing experience and knowledge, and I want to do what I can to ensure that I am putting my information out clearly. That in mind, I put together sort of a sketch while working on this comment, which might illustrate my thinking until I can get better drawings from the shop.

sketch.jpg.25073db33d8e2c6d1d5149b375781170.jpg

The beam of the boat is 1.3 meters at it's widest, and 1dogballs m wide at the stern.  That is fairly narrow, but wider than the Weta at 1.05 m.

I always have in the back of my mind the possibility that what I am doing could make the boat unsailable, especially with the issues of drag and heeling.  It could be that balance cannot be achieved without moving the centerboard forward or something like that. Nothing like that is happening.  Worst case, I stick the old rails back on and use the amas for something else. 

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I did a similar thing with an old ISO dinghy adding an ally frame on with a much larger float.

The attached image shows it in first iteration with one float only and the vertical struts were too long so the boat was too upright needed a couple of inches taking off.

There are a couple of videos of us sailing it as a proa and it went like stink with the mast remaining completely vertical.

We recorded just over 20 knots peak speed not even powered up but in a very gusty day day took off over wave and as welanded a bigger gust hit us and snapped the 70mm ally beams which went off like gunshots. Unfortunately we lost the GoPro in the accident which would have had some highly amusing video as we left the flaot behind only attached by a piece of bungee cord.

A couple of random lower speed videos here:

and

I'm hoping to rebuild it and get both sides on to test a different float shape and just thrash it til it falls apart...

 

The original rivetted bodge frame was actually stronger than the welded up frame as it had an extra 5mm x 20mm all bar rivetted on the underside so I'll do that again.

I say crack in and do it - total laugh for peanuts.

As for turtling it, my view was I'd likely have bigger issues than trying to right the boat as I've got serious long term neck and back issues so would be more concerned about getting to hospital than righting the boat....

setting off.jpg

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6 hours ago, Vantage475T said:

The original rivetted bodge frame was actually stronger

That looks like fun. I debated aircraft-style riveted construction. We do a lot of that here in the shop. Not whole aircraft, but ejection seat components and other small parts. 

I had never really considered just one proa-style ama. I guess I am thinking that the I14 has too much rig for that. But one ama is exponentially easier to right after capsize. I have been able to right and reboard my 23 foot proa in 20 foot rolling breakers on several exciting occasions. Of course I did not have mast weight and sail drag to deal with. I was using a kite for propulsion, and mainly needed to untangle and release it.

Anyway, my current plan would allow me to install either or both amas as needed. The structure will only be permanent out to the hiking rails. But I have to admit that I had not really been thinking along those lines. It is certainly worth considering, at least in very light airs. I am working with a target of > 40 lbs per ama/rail assembly. Upwind, that would pop right up and over very easily.

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Also used it with 2 floats and I will revisit that shortly.

If you can trap out then the righting moment is still massive with only one side-either on the main Hull side with float supporting you or out on the outer beam of the float.

Funnily enough I have been thinking about using my kites on this well.

How did it work for you? What sort of size kite were you using? How was it attached?

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I use a Cabrinha 7. The harness bar attaches with webbing  to the hull on either side of the seat, like a loose seat belt. There is a tangle hazard there, so I have an aircraft-type quick release on the belt.

I have only used it downwind or about 15 degrees to starboard of downwind. At one point, I put a fin box about 30% back from the bow, as it tended to slide otherwise. It is great fun, and saves paddling on long stretches offshore in light airs. It works great until it suddenly doesn't.  Probably a much smaller kite would give a little more reaction time to avert disaster.

The biggest thing, just like surfing the boat, is to keep the nose up. As soon as the nose drops, it is over. Literally. I usually kept a dive tank on deck behind me, which helps a lot. A significant part of my use of that boat initially was as a dive platform with which I could  access very hard to approach wrecks in the Western Pacific.

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Sounds fab. Do you have a by Vids or pics of it in action? 

Always good to see something a bit "out there"!

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OK - giving a bit more thought to it:

Weta capsize recovery is simple. If you can melt out the foam and put inspection ports in place, that would be helpful. And sail where it's deep....

Dihedral: 14's hate heeling, trimarans hate all three hulls in the water. (I've owned 6 14s, and 1 Weta, a contour 34 and a Multi23. Might get another Weta someday) Go for minimum dihedral that keeps the weather hull up just out of the water when powered up. Move your body weight to keep that weather hull out when it's light.

Trap height - lots of adjustment will be necessary. Not sure you can do anything but get used to it.

Regarding nosediving, what the weta, multi23 and Contour all had in common is less buoyancy aft. The 14 has MOST buoyancy pretty far aft....  (I did pitchpole a Weta once, but it was an experiment, under the GoldenGate Bridge on a big ebb, big wind day. Was very mellow. Just stood on it's nose and fell over)

 

In big air, you're going to need a horizontal foil. either attached to the rudder - or - if your connections can handle it, some sort of fixed hydrofoil on the amas that will either pitch the nose up, or the ass end down.  Think Catri.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

If you can melt out the foam

I have started with the assumption that I might need to do that. The downside of that is that in isolated waters, any damage leads to total loss of buoyancy, which can be a hard problem to solve while underway. 

Some new images:

The boat with the old rails and supports:

2005849892_oldrails.jpg.6845be3ce07530ea64aa11d807765b1c.jpg

New supports:

1149622153_newrails.jpg.45e082dd547f3f00d9574fc5873d7e50.jpg

The new front and rear tubes add 1.3kg to the weight of the boat, but have something like 1/4 the deflection (3mm) with a load equal to twice the weight of boat + crew. I plan to put a middle support in as well, but it will only support the middle of the hiking rail. I will probably use the same outer diameter tubing for aesthetic reasons, but with a much thinner wall. Those three support tubes will be fastened to the boat semi-permanently, with the hiking rails on brackets at the outboard ends, and the amas with the rest of the structure attaching to what you see here. I am, of course, keeping the old rails intact.

I am trying to engineer this so that the amas and these two arms are structurally independent and pretty much bullet proof, with the main hull more or less attached to the stronger ama assembly, instead of the other way around.

The other thing I am doing is using these brackets to attach the amas for initial experiments:

amafixture.jpg.17b38d06d469b0d376e7111db33f67a8.jpg

I have a whole bucket of them, and they are very adjustable. though probably not strong enough for long-term use. I planned my internal threaded inserts so that the permanent mounts that I am fabricating use the same bolts and spacing as these adjustable  brackets. They are stronger than they look, and have mostly stainless working parts. I also have lots of different length arm section for these. FYI- the kevlar cloth there will actually go between the ama and the armature, and be laminated and covered with more carbon. The amas are pretty ugly at this point, but there are more layers to go.

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Some observations:

In Pic #2 the dog appears to be laughing at you.

Also in Pic #2, there is a hint of some extremely cool vintage motorcycles near your project. Need more details on those.

 

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5 hours ago, Vantage475T said:

Do you have a by Vids or pics of it in action?

Somewhere there are a few seconds of video on an 8mm cassette. What I have right at hand is an image of the boat before launching:

OC1.thumb.jpg.ee9e5fec06569302c771f8eb2ae9b32c.jpg

The kite attachments are hard to make out from this angle. I will look for better images. This was taken on the stern of a cargo ship in the Marianas. It is set up to be lifted via overhead crane, and dropped off the stern of the ship, allowing me to paddle or dive at any sites near where the ship is anchored or drifting, which happens frequently.

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Both projects are very interesting and I'm looking forward to any more info on them for sure.

I need to fix my Spitfire this weekend (mate broke it last weekend) so me and my wife can get out and play and hopefully I'll get back to making some progress very shortly on the ISOProaMaran fix as well and get the other float lashed up fairly soon.

Really need some time on te water - work is all getting a bit much again!

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I thought I would post a rendering of the amas. In the images I posted they look super blocky. They are somewhat, but not terribly so. I milled all the edges to a 3 inch radius, except the last two feet aft on the bottoms, which have a four inch radius. Here is my ama design plan, which I followed pretty closely, except for additional radiusing aft:

amadwg.jpg.46a9e366d8e4c9f611d1f3dcff2c6f51.jpg

There are a series of void spaces , connected by high and low passages. I will eventually drill for a drain plug aft. If I end up melting the foam out, I would probably need to cut pretty significant openings to re-anchor my iako attachment structures.  Probably the best course of action would be to bisect them.

The weight of the new tubing I bent to attach to the hull has been bugging me, and I am now thinking that I should go ahead and start fabricating tubing out of carbon/kevlar weave. The aluminum can take a huge amount of abuse, so I keep going back and forth on the idea. A compromise might be thin walled aluminum with outer layers of composite weave.

I have a tendency to overthink these sorts of things, but I enjoy the process anyway. My scrap bins are full of elaborate and complicated objects that just did not fulfill their purpose.

 

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On 4/30/2019 at 11:06 PM, toadboy65 said:

 

The beam of the boat is 1.3 meters at it's widest, and 1dogballs m wide at the stern.  That is fairly narrow, but wider than the Weta at 1.05 m.

I always have in the back of my mind the 

You got caught out by the site's point two two caliber dogballs filter!

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3 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

You got caught out by the site's point two two caliber dogballs filter!

Yeah. That is weird.

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In political anarchy there is a user who goes on about his twentytwo so much the mods filter it to dogballs

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5 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

In political anarchy there is a user who goes on about his twentytwo so much the mods filter it to dogballs

So I suppose I should appreciate the whimsy of it? Ok then.

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Well its coming along.

I'd stick with the aluminum rack for the time being as you seem pretty proficient with that material. If it works in practice, you can always optimize again later with a lighter build.

As mentioned 14's like being flat but Tri's like flying a hull or two, so you're a little stuck, but I guess if we go back to mission one, Training wheels, it makes sense. Nobody's setting any records on things with training wheels but they can have some additional safety and some more fun as a result and this build could be on its way to that.

Not sure if you need some lateral bracing on your racks. Meaning something diagonal so when there's drag on the ama and thrust from the main hull the whole rack doesn't distort to the aft and then fail. Even small trampolines tend to add a lot of stiffness to assemblies so something to keep in mind.

Bravo for a bold experiment and just getting on with it.

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Certainly I found lashing the tramp in my bodged up riveted contraption added a huge amount of strength to it all.

I found that the Iso was kept with the mast almost vertical for so much time that the average speeds went up massively as we weren't constantly being knocked sideways.

The bit of drag from the float seemed negligible in comparison to the overall gain and safety and confidence gained from knowing there was almost no chance of going over.

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6 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

You got caught out by the site's point two two caliber dogballs filter!

I was wondering what that was all about also. Hey toad, I don’t know about those adjustable brackets, they already have a cantilever before you get the Ama immersion loads added. They’d have to be pretty beefy (ie. extra unnecessary weight) to handle the extra loads of the lever. What’s your reason for using them, I’m assuming its to adjust the ama height?  

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1 hour ago, he b gb said:

What’s your reason for using them

That was primarily for dry land or static float test, to play with angles and distances while setting up the geometry for the permanent structure. At this point, they are already off, and milled aluminum fittings with a set angle are in their place.

 

2 hours ago, blunted said:

I'd stick with the aluminum rack

That is my current plan, at least for now. It is beefy AF, so one less thing to worry about. Probably the wise thing would be to play with the aluminum this season, then work changes and refinements into a composite replacement structure over the winter.  I am thinking about diagonals as well. Probably within the structure of the frame, so that I don't put any stress on the boat that it was not designed for.

Making a new rack out of carbon/kevlar weave does not count as a boat expense for me. That probably seems absurd. But I have lots of those raw materials already, from previous and future non-hobby related projects. The same goes for all the aluminum or stainless steel I might use. And the machinery to process those materials is already here.  I do my planning at home in the evening, then fit time during the day to fool with boat stuff between other projects. Or maybe go back to the boat after everything else is done for the day.  If not the boat, it would be other fun projects. And I try to bring something home every day to keep my hands busy in the evening.

But I am glad you went back to the original point of this being about training wheels. I have sailed a bunch of boats, and singlehanded quite a few that were never made to go out without a crew. I actually fancied that the I14 would be another such boat, although lighter and faster than what I have experience on. Instead, I found it a tremendously humbling experience. It brought my opinion of my personal sailing abilities down several notches, which was probably a healthy experience. But I kept at it all summer when the chance to go out presented itself. I got some fun in, although every single time I took the boat out, the last task of the day was to walk the lee shore and look for objects that had not been properly lashed down when I capsized. Which I did every time but once.

Ideally, I could over time replace the amas with a series of new ones, each set having lower volume and less drag, until they become almost vestigal. But that is way down the road. Right now, I just want to go sailing, and have the sailing/swimming time ratio tipped way towards sailing. Unless the drag of an ama in the water makes the boat massively unstable, it is still going to be a lot of fun.

If anyone has good measured drawings of a spoiled rudder (?) and details about the construction of the main joint, I would be eager to see those.

T

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A progress report is in order. I weighed the fabricated parts this morning, and found that the two new rail support arms are 2.5kg heavier than the three original ones. The new tubing is larger and almost twice as thick as the old tubing. Here is an out of focus image of both types of tube side by side:tubing.jpg.693412394181591130c1d0396ee7e7fc.jpg

I do not know for sure what the old tube is, but it is light and sort of bendy. The new tubing is 2024 aerospace aluminum. If i had 2024 of the original dimensions, I would have used that with negligable weight increase but considerable strength gains. But I have a whole rack of the big tubing (48mm outer diameter), so that is what I used. It is sort of a challenge to bend.

It also seemed prudent to put accommodations for additional supports on the inboard side of each ama:

1575853143_amaside.jpg.c8a15b2869a98172871db4bdd69a5f65.jpg

I am pretty sure I will want to at least run a stay forward, but made allowances to also possibly run aft, and/or up and inboard. The fittings line up with the original middle rail support. The threaded inserts do not penetrate through the side of the ama, so the fittings could be left off without leakage issues.  And yes, the amas are sort of lumpy at this stage.

I also replaced the temporary fittings on top of the amas with permanent fixed angle fittings. There are 200mm sections of 2024 tubing attached, which is my best guess at this point of what I will need. Those tubes are smaller than my main tubing, and will be able to telescope in and out, or be cut shorter if needed. 

amas0507.thumb.jpg.98b17e562bcdb86b286351457805d2c7.jpg

Those welded fixtures were bolted to the built-in hard points before being covered with carbon and kevlar. There is also a threaded rod running through each of them to the internal structure of each ama.

Although there is at least another layer of s-glass to go, as well as UV stabilized clear coat, the current weight of each ama, plus the fittings and tubing to mount them 700mm outboard of each hiking rail is 19lb per side.  That seems to keep me below the weight of the equivalent weta components, which is sort of a soft target. In retrospect, I wish the amas had a finer entry, but the advantage of the current shape is that I can crash these into all sorts of stuff with minimal damage. I suppose i could put replaceable nose sections on the present structure, and shape those any way I want.

The next step is to finish fabricating the mounting system for the amas, and put the boat in the water to have a look at waterlines and such.  Almost all the materials are cut and/or milled, and mostly what is left is finish and assembly. The bits that I do not anticipate needing to fool with further are being riveted together, for strength and weight.  Not pop rivets, but 2024 and monel solid shank rivets.  I should note that without these amas installed, the hiking rails will be in their original positions, and the boat will just be an I14 with 2.5kg heavier structure. The amas will each attach with two button handle locking pins. If capsized, I expect to be able to pull one or both amas off in just a few seconds, and let them drift away tethered by long lanyards while I climb up on the centerboard.  That will need to do until I can develop a better righting system.

A member here has been of great assistance, and I will be moving up to a more modern cassette-type foiling rudder.

More to come.

 

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Amas went on the boat today, although the mounts are only tacked together for now. I expect on Saturday to put the boat+amas in the water with a simulated crew load, and measure waterlines and angles at the dock. The fittings are designed to allow a few degrees of both pitch and yaw adjustment on each ama, but I have to fix the "centered" position based on the float test. I expect to also see how much buoyancy the amas provide, although I could have just done math.

Next up is the design of an assembly which will attach to the boat when trailering, and will hold the ama/extension arm assemblies for transport, but also serve as a mast crane to make it a little easier to rig and unrig  the boat by myself.  I have been doing it without any real issues, but there is one moment in the process that would make me a little more comfortable if it were better controlled.  I remember in college I used to put the mast up on my e-scow by myself  while it was still on the trailer, but I needed to park next to a tall building and have access to the fourth floor balcony.  Good times.

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I got rained out for the float test this weekend, but was able to take some images this afternoon when the sun finally came out.

These are sort of the initial posture studies for the amas and mounts:

544257967_posturefront.jpg.23f20657b966bbed4f68d8071624830f.jpg

551520364_posturestbd.jpg.5a571ed9de15586f312b46e66e358c71.jpg

Everything is fairly adjustable, and the joints have enough mobility that I could raise or lower one end of the amas without stressing the joints. As it sits here, I can raise each end of the amas 13mm, or lower them 90mm. If I had to, I could raise them 150mm or so by shortening a tube. The amas are now parallel to the keel, and in the most retracted position. I can bring either end out 150mm by telescoping out and using sections of tubing as spacers. The joints are interchangeable, so I could extend those out as far as I wanted to by using additional pipe sections with joints.

Here are the two original hiking rails, set up on the port side more or less where I will mount sets of rails on each side, probably with some sort of trampoline between them:

(the actual mounting  joints are being fabricated)

rails.jpg.2422d88ca9b4367b1249b180f3f09eb1.jpg

Here is a better view of one of the stainless ama joints. It is designed to rotate about 5 degrees either way to adjust for different ama height settings:

(I need to grind that ugly weld)

292794205_amajoint.thumb.jpg.5957d74d28662a819cf1ec7a03daaab0.jpg

Lastly, here is one of the ama release pins:

pin.jpg.6d9bdaa00be4ea2f2e3f8b39a095e706.jpg

more to come.

 

 

 

 

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I forgot to note that I fabricated a carbon/kevlar tube for the center rail brace. It is just sitting in place here, and requires end fittings and bushings.  I expect that I will eventually replace all the heavy aluminum pipe sections with more like this:

2095611391_carbonpole.jpg.73d08ab4c915f3c598f368ac755acd6e.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, olsurfer said:

where do you launch your tri?

I haven't yet.  I will be testing it in one of the nearby lakes in Western NC. I am trying to get the project wrapped up, so that I can take it west at the end of next month. I plan to sail in Lake Buchanan in Texas, and then wherever I can put the boat in while I spend the rest of the summer in Southwest Colorado/ Northern New Mexico.

The coming fall, I will be hopefully zooming around on the Texas Gulf coast.

 

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Progress update:

I have most of the details completed. Floated as expected, but not yet sailed.  Still making the carbon rails to sit over the outriggers, and the webbing mesh trampolines.  I plan to keep the webbing spaced pretty far apart, so that they will generate minimal lift on the windward side.  I have not finished the end fittings for the middle support, but that is not critical, as the other two supports are much stronger than the original ones.

stern052719.jpg.671355fdb6ef3bef332fb9c9da026bf0.jpg

I am so glad that I have this 30 foot lift. It allows me to fiddle with rigging details up high without needing to constantly take the mast down and put it back up. I had the sails up today, but had a lot of friction on the main track. I am smoothing out rough spots in the track, and coating everything with teflon.

rig.thumb.jpg.8f39e28e7aa0e7162bb403dfe88ed2b4.jpg

The plan is to actually sail next weekend. 

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Looks great!  I hope the wind is good for your shake down sail!  

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Progress report, as of 21 June, 2019:

After a test sail in very light winds, I have done pretty much all I plan to do on the boat before I take it west for the season.

Here is a top view of the mostly completed boat:

518960851_trifromabove.thumb.jpg.ca7067673eeceebb205263409d2badc9.jpg

From aft-

891232262_fromaft.thumb.jpg.d44ae2abf420bb2df2fd6a7e4172f0c4.jpg

 

The trapeze assemblies are just laced on with random line I found. There is probably a much better way to do it, but they are pretty tight. The grid spacing is pretty wide, but I was concerned about windage. The fore and aft lashings are kevlar.

tramp.thumb.jpg.470f33029786c4294c87127ae1b17f0d.jpg

Part of the plan was that I needed to be able to launch and retrieve the boat by myself. I will probably post another topic on the trailer modifications I made.

But here is what it looks like with the outriggers stowed-

stowed.thumb.jpg.ea2e18b40f9d22d4561e0c6752c30845.jpg

It takes me about 10 minutes to rig or unrig the amas. Half of that is dealing with a turnbuckle that runs diagonally between the ama and the main hull.

The amas snap together with sections of aluminum tubing, using the same pins that attach them when deployed.

linkage.thumb.jpg.e9d82a2407735b83197f500f7a147faf.jpg

I have not tried it yet, but the ama assemblies could serve as sort of a catamaran on their own.

Lastly for now, I wanted to mention that everything is held together with these ball-lock pins:

pins.thumb.jpg.f217f819b2e7c84eba5baf6ee529c553.jpg

At some point, their tendency to snag lines will be a problem. Right now, it is nice to be able to very easily adjust or assemble the various parts.  Currently, the amas are set so that the aft ends just kiss the water when the boat is loaded with zero list, and the front end of the amas about 9 inches above the water. I could use another set of holes and raise either end about an inch, or drop them up to six inches.  There is flex built into the 90 degree fittings to allow for angle changes, if I need to raise or lower just one end of the ama.

Anyway, I think it is up to a summer of sailing, and I will probably do more mods and cosmetic improvements in the coming winter.

Hopefully I can get some sailing images here in a couple of weeks, when I will be on lake Buchanan in Tx.

more to come.

T

 

 

 

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On 6/21/2019 at 7:50 PM, Fat Point Jack said:

The tow vehicle is as cool as the boat.

The tow vehicle has a 600+hp race engine, and requires special high-octane fuel. It is a monster in disguise.

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Had a nice long sail today. We were out for several hours in 10-15 knot winds on a central Texas lake. The dog and wife came along as well. The boat did great. The only sailing issue was that the jib halyard jammed about 5 inches from the top, so I sailed with a somewhat slack headsail.

It is super stable. The wife was able to just find a comfy spot and stay, while I moved to windward with each tack. At speed, I was able to keep the boat level enough to keep both amas out of the water. No serious drag issues arose, except that I needed to maintain speed to tack properly when I was in a protected cove in light airs. 

The foiling rudder was an interesting addition, and allows for more attitude control than I had expected. Steering is smooth and responsive, and I can step away from the tiller when centered long enough to adjust things elsewhere on the boat. I will probably rig something more permanent for that purpose.

I did not rig any hiking gear for this trip, and did not need it. In a gust, I only need to hop onto the trampoline.  On other boats, the wife usually tends the jib and the dog supervises.  I have a self tending jib on this boat, so I was essentially singlehanding.

Putting the boat back on the trailer was a pain, as the dolly broke from internal rust just forward of the front wheel.  But I have been thinking of modifying or replacing it anyway.

Next time I plan video. I expected to be too busy for that this trip, but never even got wet.

sailing.jpg.b7bc8fe978d6aeef132d0161b839b780.jpg

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Hi Toadboy,

Wondering if you managed to get any more sailing in and had any more feedback on how the I14 with training wheels sailed?

Also, did you manage to get any video or more pics to share?

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I went out several times, including once when the wind started to really gust, maybe 25 kts. I did not want to take too many chances then, so just practiced tacking in a shielded cove.  But over all, It worked out well. There are more images, and some video, but they did not impress me very much. I will look again, and see if any of the video is worth posting here.

I did have the following issues-

The original launching cradle broke from internal rust, which made launching and retrieving difficult.

The steering rod connections were unreliable. the glue joints would pop out, which left me improvising a fix on the water, and not having a lot of positive control.

Both the main and jib hoisting systems I installed had issues. I sewed slugs on the main and teflonned the track, but had trouble keeping proper sail and halyard tension. The clips on the jib were cheap, and would sometimes unclip when the sail was lowered.  I consider the ability to raise and lower the sails essential to singlehanding the boat.

There were other little issues, which I have been addressing this winter.

On the good side- Once I get going, I can trim and ballast  the boat so that it heels very little, and the downwind outrigger just sort of barely touches the water.  Then I am doing real I14 sailing. On the other hand, a good gust will bury the downwind outrigger, but it then feels more like a ballasted boat. It is controllable. The boat slows down, but I have time to get out on the rail and bring everything back to normal.  Tacking can be a little difficult, because I have to keep the boat level and make a quick transition. If the downwind outrigger gets pushed into the water during the turn, it can mess up the tack.

The foiling rudder is just wonderful in every way.

T

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9 hours ago, toadboy65 said:

Then I am doing real I14 sailing.

Sorry, but not even a little bit 14ing...

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3 hours ago, Liquid said:

Sorry, but not even a little bit 14ing...

Harsh.  But, when I am standing out on the rail, and the amas are out of the water, it sure feels like 14 sailing to me.  I did not cut down the rig. I am using carbon square topped racing sails, and my whole ama arrangement has only added 30 pounds to the boat, which I have somewhat offset by upgrading and lightening some of existing parts.

I would love to sail the boat in it's pure form. But i am mostly solo, plus a dog.Solo sailing an I14 is just brutal. I have tried it. And the long-term goal here is that as my skill progresses,  I can position the amas so that they will have less effect. Also, the system is designed to convert back to a single hiking rail (per side), which can be done in about 10 minutes.

But i am not racing anyone. I am learning boat and the rig , and doing so in an environment where breezy conditions are not a big deal, and where I can practice difficult moves with much less time spent swimming and righting the boat.

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I campaigned a modern rules 14 for several years,10 or so years ago. The 14 is the most brutal, humbling and rewarding boat I've ever sailed having grown up in dinghies and keel boats over the last half century.

It's been said before: Learning to 14 in a boat that is not a 14 is not learning to sail a 14!

I guess I see it as stolen 14 valor to say you were 14ing!

Hey, I'm shallow...

 

*photo credit to the 2020 I14 Perth Worlds

i14ing.jpg

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Is the angle of attack on the I14 rudder foil adjustable while scooting along?

If so is it via a twisting control on the tiller?

I don't suppose you have the approx dimensions of the rudder and daggerboard for the I14 and their weights do you?

The daggerboard and rudder on my old ISO weigh a ton and I need to start looking for something to replace them once I finally manage to get the next step on my tri project underway which is replacing the ISO main hull.

I am looking at reducing the 16ft length of my project down to 14ft and keeping it as a single hander and then just keep my Spitfire for double handed tooling about.

I should be finishing a much larger outrigger to test on the iso lash up shortly if I can actually get some time away from work...

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1 hour ago, Vantage475T said:

I don't suppose you have the approx dimensions of the rudder and daggerboard for the I14 and their weights do you?

I will get those for you today.

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8 hours ago, Liquid said:

stolen 14 valor

I have certainly found it humbling. I have a long history with a variety of boats as well, but I had not owned a sailboat in several years, having moved to whitewater kayaks and outrigger canoes. When I decided to get another sailboat, I wanted something that packed a lot of excitement in a small package. I found a great deal on the I14, but found it incredibly challenging to sail.  Without competent crew, I could only take it out under the most mild conditions, and even then, I was likely to end up swimming for a large part of my day. 

Sure, selling the boat and buying something milder would have been the logical option. But I am on a budget, and sort of stubborn. I also have the tools and materials to make just about anything out of metals or composites. The training wheels idea was a mechanical and design challenge for me as well. And my rules included the ability to quickly revert back to pure I14. Training wheels are a learning tool, and designed to come off.

The main thing, the important thing, is that I am out there sailing, as long as it is not blowing a gale. I can focus on tuning the rig and learning how to best use the foil.  Without the training wheels, most days I would be waiting on shore for perfect conditions.

I have tremendous respect for people who have mastered boats like the I14.  I was always the guy who could sail anything, from one designs to full rigged ships. But this boat was another level completely.  It gave me a dose of humility that I probably needed, and a challenge to take on.

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4 hours ago, Vantage475T said:

Is the angle of attack on the I14 rudder foil adjustable while scooting along?

If so is it via a twisting control on the tiller?

It is adjustable.

Control method is up to you, pull a string or twist a tiller extension

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2 hours ago, toadboy65 said:

I have certainly found it humbling. I have a long history with a variety of boats as well, but I had not owned a sailboat in several years, having moved to whitewater kayaks and outrigger canoes. When I decided to get another sailboat, I wanted something that packed a lot of excitement in a small package. I found a great deal on the I14, but found it incredibly challenging to sail.  Without competent crew, I could only take it out under the most mild conditions, and even then, I was likely to end up swimming for a large part of my day. 

Sure, selling the boat and buying something milder would have been the logical option. But I am on a budget, and sort of stubborn. I also have the tools and materials to make just about anything out of metals or composites. The training wheels idea was a mechanical and design challenge for me as well. And my rules included the ability to quickly revert back to pure I14. Training wheels are a learning tool, and designed to come off.

The main thing, the important thing, is that I am out there sailing, as long as it is not blowing a gale. I can focus on tuning the rig and learning how to best use the foil.  Without the training wheels, most days I would be waiting on shore for perfect conditions.

I have tremendous respect for people who have mastered boats like the I14.  I was always the guy who could sail anything, from one designs to full rigged ships. But this boat was another level completely.  It gave me a dose of humility that I probably needed, and a challenge to take on.

I like your commitment/execution to fulfill your design brief and it gets you on the water!

When the training wheels come off, do you intend to single hand it?

 

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4 hours ago, Liquid said:

When the training wheels come off, do you intend to single hand it? 

 

I would love to have someone who is always available to sail, and always wherever I am (besides the dog, of course).

That is fairly unlikely. For one thing, I travel a lot.  I think if I am realistic, my prediction is that as my skills increase on the I14, there will be fewer "training wheels" days. The outriggers I built are also pretty adjustable.  I try to set them so that the downwind ama just kisses the water at the very aft end unless I screw up and heel too much.  Right now, the biggest issue is learning to gracefully go from stepping into the boat with the sails down to actively sailing in a controlled manner. There is a lot going on for one person to manage. The outriggers allow me to screw up a little in that initial process without immediately capsizing.  I will surely develop a system.

10 hours ago, Vantage475T said:

approx dimensions of the rudder and daggerboard for the I14

Here is what I have-

Daggerboard- 60" long, 10-7/8" maximum width. 11 pounds

Rudder-  47-1/4" long, 8.5" maximum width,  4.6 pounds without the foils

Each foil wing is 18" x 5", the whole assembly plus axle weighs 2.2 pounds

Here they are with a tape measure-

foils.jpg.6cbe85dc34b9d25c891579a5d8cf1448.jpg

The control system is below. There is an internal spring, and a carbon lever that controls the foil.  There is a purchase system inside the tiller, which leads to another block, and a line running to cleats on both gunwales.  Releasing tension on the line lets the foils push down.  The original axle was titanium, and was broken.  I fabricated the new one out of 2024 aerospace stainless, which is probably a lot stronger than it needs to be. The pin that the pushrod operates and actually steers the foils is grade 5 titanium.

Here is the purchase system in the tiller-

purchase.thumb.jpg.53c4a73ee2ef8508a98fc0adcdbb305f.jpg

And the exterior-

1614732646_foilcontrol.thumb.jpg.f63608091ca99e0bbe3c33188d6c3613.jpg

T

 

 

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If you will be mostly sailing by yourself, don't take the amas off!

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On 3/9/2020 at 5:51 PM, toadboy65 said:

I fabricated the new one out of 2024 aerospace stainless

Wrong. I don't know where my brain is, I wrote that twice. The alloy is 2507.

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