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Question: Right To (some) Lifers* posit a fetus is a person and abortion is no different than killing a child or adult human.

Then you always get people asking about rape and incest. Would you run around killing adults who were the product of rape and incest? If so, most of the royals in Europe and Mariska Hargitay's Olivia Benson character could legally be shot . If there is to be any consistency, just admit that in the best tradition of handmaids everywhere, the 12 year olds are GOING to have their father's baby or spend the rest of their lives in jail.

* (some) life because I think most right-to-lifers end their concerns at birth, love guns, and love the death penalty :rolleyes:

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Personally, I think that a woman should be able to get an abortion because she wants to.

 If a state is going to coerce a woman into giving birth, then the state should bear all costs of prenatal, and postnatal care, up to the age of majority (18 in most states currently).

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2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Personally, I think that a woman should be able to get an abortion because she wants to.

 If a state is going to coerce a woman into giving birth, then the state should bear all costs of prenatal, and postnatal care, up to the age of majority (18 in most states currently).

I think Cider House Rules should be required reading for every teen in school.  Abortion is a horrible procedure that I wish had no place in our world. However, I am a hundred times more committed to the concept that women should have the final say on their bodies.  So put me down as anti-abortion but VERY MUCH pro-choice.  The GOP, at least those that have some neurons firing do not want Roe v Wade to come up before 2020 as it will bring out the vote and that never helps.  

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11 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I think Cider House Rules should be required reading for every teen in school.  Abortion is a horrible procedure that I wish had no place in our world. However, I am a hundred times more committed to the concept that women should have the final say on their bodies.  So put me down as anti-abortion but VERY MUCH pro-choice.  The GOP, at least those that have some neurons firing do not want Roe v Wade to come up before 2020 as it will bring out the vote and that never helps.  

Agreed.

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27 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I think Cider House Rules should be required reading for every teen in school.  Abortion is a horrible procedure that I wish had no place in our world. However, I am a hundred times more committed to the concept that women should have the final say on their bodies.  So put me down as anti-abortion but VERY MUCH pro-choice.  The GOP, at least those that have some neurons firing do not want Roe v Wade to come up before 2020 as it will bring out the vote and that never helps.  

Comprehensive sex ed and easy access to birth control are the most effective tools in lowering the number of abortions in the US.  Pretty simple. 

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I'm just pro-choice. I used to be pro-choice and anti-abortion but that's just bullshit. Women alone should make decisions about their own bodies and I'm not going to sit in judgment on that decision. I wouldn't even consider a politician who wasn't pro-choice. And abortion and birth control get covered in health care. It's a deal breaker.

Any guy who for whatever reason isn't pro-choice is just an asshole. And unlike some of the local elk population who fashion themselves as some sort of libertarian but still think their endangered 2A rights are more important and so ... Republican, well, fuck them. They're assholes.

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4 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Comprehensive sex ed and easy access to birth control are the most effective tools in lowering the number of abortions in the US.  Pretty simple. 

I had students that considered abortion as birth control.  Please don't underestimate how stupid some people are.  

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Breaking news:  After a moment's thought, Alabama has passed legislation that makes male masturbation a felony, punishable by 1 minute in jail for every sperm cell deposited on the bedsheets.  

Meanwhile, Missouri has determined that women must register their periods with the state police and report any missed period to the local precinct station within 72 hours.  They must also provide the Department of Health a male doctor's concurrence at the onset of menopause.

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10 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:
15 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Comprehensive sex ed and easy access to birth control are the most effective tools in lowering the number of abortions in the US.  Pretty simple. 

I had students that considered abortion as birth control.  Please don't underestimate how stupid some people are.  

Maybe, maybe not.

Unless you're telepathic, you can't really say unless you're just speculating and sitting judgement.

-DSK

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25 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I had students that considered abortion as birth control.  Please don't underestimate how stupid some people are.  

It is birth control. It's also their decision.

An abortion costs $350 to $950 for abortion in the first trimester.

Birth control pills cost $50/month.

Lastly, I'm a guy. I did some really epically stupid things when I was younger, shit my parents never needed to know about. However, society doesn't sit in judgment of me and my idiot brethren on that nor do my stupid decisions follow me around like a scarlet letter.

Leave this entirely to women. Indeed, you should have this discussion with your female friends and relatives (and not a bunch of sailor dudes with the very occasional chick). Like I said, I used to be in the pro-choice and anti-abortion fence straddling camp. No more. This is about their bodies and it is their decision.

And if anyone wants to bring up the sky bunny, don't.

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8 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

It is birth control. It's also their decision.

An abortion costs $350 to $950 for abortion in the first trimester.

Birth control pills cost $50/month.

Lastly, I'm a guy. I did some really epically stupid things when I was younger, shit my parents never needed to know about. However, society doesn't sit in judgment of me or idiot brethren on that nor do my stupid decisions follow me around like a scarlet letter.

Leave this entirely to women. Indeed, you should have this discussion with your female friends and relatives (and not a bunch of sailor dudes with the very occasional chick). Like I said, I used to be in the pro-choice and anti-abortion fence straddling camp. No more. This is about their bodies and it is their decision.

And if anyone wants to bring up the sky bunny, don't.

Condoms cost $, their abortions were free (given their economic plight0.  I'm sorry I am involved in this discussion as it brings up some surreal conversations.  

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I know my babies. They are well, I don't take any credit. No one has aborted my baby.  I am not denying someone's rights.

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49 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Condoms cost $, their abortions were free (given their economic plight0.  I'm sorry I am involved in this discussion as it brings up some surreal conversations.  

Not sure what's surreal.  Anecdotes are not data.  Comprehensive sex ed and access to birth control reduces unwanted pregnancies and STD's.  Fewer pregnancies = fewer abortions.  It's simple.

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2 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

So this isn't a thread about hobbies?

I’m going straight to hell for laughing at that! :lol:

 

But this thread is a new low for PA, which is really saying something! 

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1 hour ago, Olsonist said:

It is birth control. It's also their decision.

An abortion costs $350 to $950 for abortion in the first trimester.

Birth control pills cost $50/month.

Lastly, I'm a guy. I did some really epically stupid things when I was younger, shit my parents never needed to know about. However, society doesn't sit in judgment of me and my idiot brethren on that nor do my stupid decisions follow me around like a scarlet letter.

Leave this entirely to women. Indeed, you should have this discussion with your female friends and relatives (and not a bunch of sailor dudes with the very occasional chick). Like I said, I used to be in the pro-choice and anti-abortion fence straddling camp. No more. This is about their bodies and it is their decision.

And if anyone wants to bring up the sky bunny, don't.

90% with you. We all make mistakes. The vast majority (right and left) are OK with 1st trimester abortion but at some point that stupid mistake does become a person, where does that persons rights begin? 

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9 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Not sure what's surreal.  Anecdotes are not data.  Comprehensive sex ed and access to birth control reduces unwanted pregnancies and STD's.  Fewer pregnancies = fewer abortions.  It's simple.

Your reading comprehension needs to improve.  Surreal described some of the conversations I had with female students.  Conversations you were not party to so why the fuck are you questioning them.  Leave your polygamous state and spend a month volunteering in an inner-city school, like Detroit, and then you will be qualified to offer an opinion.  Otherwise, enjoy the ivory castle.  

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3 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

90% with you. We all make mistakes. The vast majority (right and left) are OK with 1st trimester abortion but at some point that stupid mistake does become a person, where does that persons rights begin? 

That's what is being debated.  I have no problem with setting a term limit, but up to that point, it has to be a woman's choice.  IT IS HER BODY!

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14 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Your reading comprehension needs to improve.  Surreal described some of the conversations I had with female students.  Conversations you were not party to so why the fuck are you questioning them.  Leave your polygamous state and spend a month volunteering in an inner-city school, like Detroit, and then you will be qualified to offer an opinion.  Otherwise, enjoy the ivory castle.  

Not sure why you feel the need to be such a dick right here.  You actually have no clue about my current life or any part of my life for that matter.  You have no clue where I have spent my service hours. days and even years.  I'm not disagreeing with your experience nor am I disagreeing that there are people who use abortion as birth control.  All the more reason for better and more compressive sex ed and access to cheap or free birth control, both of which have been proven to reduce unwanted pregnancies.  Will everyone learn?  Of course not.  But will it be statistically relevant?  Yes.  

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1 minute ago, Swimsailor said:

Not sure why you feel the need to be a dick right here.  You actually have no clue about my current life or any part of my life for that matter.  You have no clue where I have spent my service hours. days and even years.  I'm not disagreeing with your experience nor am I disagreeing that there are people who use abortion as birth control.  All the more reason for better and more compressive sex ed and access to cheap or free birth control, both of which have been proven to reduce unwanted pregnancies.  Will everyone learn?  Of course not.  But will it be statistically relevant?  Yes.  

You started it.  Your use of surreal diminished the value of my REAL EXPERIENCES.  You're right, I don't know your life as you don't know mine.  Let's call a truce if you apologize for calling me a dick?

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Just now, Cal20sailor said:

You started it.  Your use of surreal diminished the value of my REAL EXPERIENCES.  You're right, I don't know your life as you don't know mine.  Let's call a truce if you apologize for calling me a dick?

I apologize for miss-reading the context of "surreal".  Maybe explain yourself before attacking someone?  Anyway, sorry for calling you a dick.

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19 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

90% with you. We all make mistakes. The vast majority (right and left) are OK with 1st trimester abortion but at some point that stupid mistake does become a person, where does that persons rights begin? 

Like it has been for the first 50,000 years of human existence ... When it - the about to be a baby - leaves the womb.  When it is born and living outside the mother.  Not when it "can survive" with the aid of tubes and gadgets. 

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12 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

I apologize for miss-reading the context of "surreal".  Maybe explain yourself before attacking someone?  Anyway, sorry for calling you a dick.

Peace.  It surprised me as I am a fan of many of your posts.  I apologize for being reactive.  Have a great weekend!

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44 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

90% with you. We all make mistakes. The vast majority (right and left) are OK with 1st trimester abortion but at some point that stupid mistake does become a person, where does that persons rights begin? 

Ask a woman. She'll tell you and I'll agree.

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Get a room..... (And use protection!)

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27 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

I apologize for miss-reading the context of "surreal".  Maybe explain yourself before attacking someone?  Anyway, sorry for calling you a dick.

 

13 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Peace.  It surprised me as I am a fan of many of your posts.  I apologize for being reactive.  Have a great weekend!

This is how you do it AGITC.

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2 minutes ago, CyberBOB said:

A Guy in the Chesapeake.

From a different thread, just pointing out how a real apology works.

If you let this site bother you, take a break.  A bunch of assholes we are throwing shit just like the monkeys.  Have a great weekend.  

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52 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

That's what is being debated.  I have no problem with setting a term limit, but up to that point, it has to be a woman's choice.  IT IS HER BODY!

So no problems with the term limit set by Alabama? Up to that point the woman gets a choice, right?

Say you might have cancer, should a law be passed that forces you to have an invasive procedure with potential to kill you? After all an early diagnosis may save your life and all life is valuable.

Each time a woman gives birth she risks her life.

 

 

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1 minute ago, VhmSays said:

So no problems with the term limit set by Alabama? Up to that point the woman gets a choice, right?

Say you might have cancer, should a law be passed that forces you to have an invasive procedure with potential to kill you? After all an early diagnosis may save your life and all life is valuable.

Each time a woman gives birth she risks her life.

 

 

I think there should be a reasonable limit, and I embarrassingly don't know what it is currently.  

Alabama is being stupid.  Many women don't realize they're pregnant at their limit. 

OK, I would support a limit where premature babies have survived.  After that, you are killing a life...imho.  

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3 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I think there should be a reasonable limit, and I embarrassingly don't know what it is currently.  

Alabama is being stupid.  Many women don't realize they're pregnant at their limit. 

OK, I would support a limit where premature babies have survived.  After that, you are killing a life...imho.  

Lets see how about 23 weeks with ~10%-15% chance of survival without neurological damage? More than 50% survive in a NICU but of those 85%-90% will have neurological and other problems.

Is that good with you?

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17 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

The Federalist, Marist College, Life News. The usual suspects.

Not that I give a shit about your 'poll' but it didn't say what women thought because what men think doesn't matter in that discussion.

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1 minute ago, VhmSays said:

Lets see how about 23 weeks with ~10%-15% chance of survival without neurological damage? More than 50% survive in a NICU but of those 85%-90% will have neurological and other problems.

Is that good with you?

I'm not sure.  I'm really not.  I have the same problem with amniocentesis.  And some of my feelings are being childless despite wanting children.  I have two of the most highly educated people (PhD, JD), who have a son that has issues.  But, I've known them forever and he has made their life a better thing.  I'm not sure.  But, I'm a guy and it's a woman's body and she should have the last say.  I agree that we should have condoms free like they do with needles in many countries.  Sure, they would get ripped off until there was no market on the streets (days).  I'm not sure, except that it should always be a woman's choice.  

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11 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm not sure.  I'm really not.  I have the same problem with amniocentesis.  And some of my feelings are being childless despite wanting children.  I have two of the most highly educated people (PhD, JD), who have a son that has issues.  But, I've known them forever and he has made their life a better thing.  I'm not sure.  But, I'm a guy and it's a woman's body and she should have the last say.  I agree that we should have condoms free like they do with needles in many countries.  Sure, they would get ripped off until there was no market on the streets (days).  I'm not sure, except that it should always be a woman's choice.  

You don't get it. The American Taliban don't want women not getting pregnant, they want them punished for having sex. If they gave a shit about "life" they would be splitting their time protesting abortion clinics and capital punishment.

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12 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm not sure.  I'm really not.  I have the same problem with amniocentesis.  And some of my feelings are being childless despite wanting children.  I have two of the most highly educated people (PhD, JD), who have a son that has issues.  But, I've known them forever and he has made their life a better thing.  I'm not sure.  But, I'm a guy and it's a woman's body and she should have the last say.  I agree that we should have condoms free like they do with needles in many countries.  Sure, they would get ripped off until there was no market on the streets (days).  I'm not sure, except that it should always be a woman's choice.  

We didn't do amnio. It didn't seem worth the risk.

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Boys and girls fuck because it's fun, and (generally) it feels good.

 Boys and girls go sailing, and swimming, and having picnics in the park, because it feels good, it's fun...

 But women aren't punished for sailing, or swimming, or eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.....

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4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

We didn't do amnio. It didn't seem worth the risk.

My wife (future mother) turned 40 and the risks outweighed our desire.  Each of us had been tested many times over.  Shit, I couldn't get a hard on for years without thinking about a sample cup.  We would never have had n amnio.  I assume things turned out well?

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8 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm 61 and still like to fuck because it's fun.

And your woman/Women aren't punished for having fun either, are they?

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2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

And your woman/Women aren't punished for having fun either, are they?

it's woman.  Post menopause, of course not.  But she has kids and grandkids and knows what is right.

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7 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

it's woman.  Post menopause, of course not.  But she has kids and grandkids and knows what is right.

Most people "Know what's right"..... But when lil' miss hottie has her hands down your 18 y/o pants, and is glistening with sweat, were you gonna say:" Hold on.... Got $5? I need to run out and buy 3 condoms"?

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1 hour ago, Movable Ballast said:

Poll was conducted by The Knights of Columbus for Marist College, a Catholic college.  

Not the least biased group around, and please notice, no breakdown between men and women.  

So, maybe not exactly "asked and answered."

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1 hour ago, VhmSays said:

Lets see how about 23 weeks with ~10%-15% chance of survival without neurological damage? More than 50% survive in a NICU but of those 85%-90% will have neurological and other problems.

Is that good with you?

Source from medical literature backing up those statistics, please.

You *may* be correct about the 23 weeks, but I still want to see your evidence.

By 26 weeks, though the picture is waaay better than that. At least here in Australia it is.

My first wife is a hospital department head dealing with newborns. I trust her information way more than figures here.

FKT

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6 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Question: Right To (some) Lifers* posit a fetus is a person and abortion is no different than killing a child or adult human.

Then you always get people asking about rape and incest. Would you run around killing adults who were the product of rape and incest? If so, most of the royals in Europe and Mariska Hargitay's Olivia Benson character could legally be shot . If there is to be any consistency, just admit that in the best tradition of handmaids everywhere, the 12 year olds are GOING to have their father's baby or spend the rest of their lives in jail.

* (some) life because I think most right-to-lifers end their concerns at birth, love guns, and love the death penalty :rolleyes:

I think most pro death penalty advocates would give on that issue if a life sentence meant just that in the case of murder .

Thirteen years is not an adequate substitute for the death penalty.

image.thumb.png.3d7cc26493fd8ae8cc1b51c909e3bfdf.png

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp16.pdf

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

My wife (future mother) turned 40 and the risks outweighed our desire.  Each of us had been tested many times over.  Shit, I couldn't get a hard on for years without thinking about a sample cup.  We would never have had n amnio.  I assume things turned out well?

Yes they did, thanks for asking :D B)

My wife was 39 and all the screening tests were like X result times Y age = likely problems and at age 39 you ALWAYS get the bad result because of the formula. We skipped it, it was pointless.

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4 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Not sure what's surreal.  Anecdotes are not data.  Comprehensive sex ed and access to birth control reduces unwanted pregnancies and STD's.  Fewer pregnancies = fewer abortions.  It's simple.

So what does the data say about abortions due to rape and incest? Greater then or less then ones used for birth control? 

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It seems to me, that any reason, is a good enough reason to have an abortion, if that's what the woman wants.

It is not for any man, even the theoretical sperm donor, to decide what a woman MUST do.

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Abortion introduces a gender inequality.

A woman can end her responsibility for raising an unwanted child with an abortion. Not so for the father, who can be accessed child support obligations  regardless of hie inclinations toward the child. 

Shouldn't the father have the same right to demand an abortion even if the mother wants to keep the child?

 

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6 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Abortion introduces a gender inequality.

A woman can end her responsibility for raising an unwanted child with an abortion. Not so for the father, who can be accessed child support obligations  regardless of hie inclinations toward the child. 

Shouldn't the father have the same right to demand an abortion even if the mother wants to keep the child?

 

No.

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1 hour ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Abortion introduces a gender inequality.

A woman can end her responsibility for raising an unwanted child with an abortion. Not so for the father, who can be accessed child support obligations  regardless of hie inclinations toward the child. 

Shouldn't the father have the same right to demand an abortion even if the mother wants to keep the child?

 

congratulations, this is by far your your most ridiculous question. 

 

and that’s saying a lot

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actually, for once Jack raises an interesting point.

2 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Abortion introduces a gender inequality.

A woman can end her responsibility for raising an unwanted child with an abortion. Not so for the father, who can be accessed child support obligations  regardless of hie inclinations toward the child. 

Shouldn't the father have the same right to demand an abortion even if the mother wants to keep the child?

 

Demand abortion..absolutely not.

1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:

No.

We all know it takes two.

slip ups.

However as men have just as much access to contraception, Vasectomy's, condoms and even the pill, it seems only reasonable that men should have to pay for the consequences of an unwanted result.

Offer to pay/share all costs for an abortion. If the woman won't abort is it reasonable to expect child support?

I actually don't think so..as long as the man used similarly effective contraception and therefore showed a deliberate intention not to father a child.

 

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Source from medical literature backing up those statistics, please.

You *may* be correct about the 23 weeks, but I still want to see your evidence.

By 26 weeks, though the picture is waaay better than that. At least here in Australia it is.

My first wife is a hospital department head dealing with newborns. I trust her information way more than figures here.

FKT

 

Survival and neurodevelopmental outcomes amongst periviable infants 

Table 2 and 4, other researchers have had slightly varying results.

At 26 weeks its a different story in fact each week of development significantly changes the outcomes.

I was responding to the assertion that if it is capable of "survival" outside a womb the decision to abort should be out of the womans hands. My figures were off the top of my head from way back but not much has changed.

 

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54 minutes ago, VhmSays said:

 

Survival and neurodevelopmental outcomes amongst periviable infants 

Table 2 and 4, other researchers have had slightly varying results.

At 26 weeks its a different story in fact each week of development significantly changes the outcomes.

I was responding to the assertion that if it is capable of "survival" outside a womb the decision to abort should be out of the womans hands. My figures were off the top of my head from way back but not much has changed.

 

Thanks for that, I did know about the accelerated chances of survival for each extra week in utero. It's why my personal attitude is, first trimester, no questions, woman's choice. Second trimester, pretty much the same but it's really time to make up your mind. Third trimester post 26 weeks, no with the exception of a late-detected and serious genetic disorder. Free C section and adoption, sure, making someone carry to term and keep the child isn't something I'd advocate.

At the 26 week point that's a viable child in utero not just a bunch of cells undergoing division.

FKT

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5 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

actually, for once Jack raises an interesting point.

Demand abortion..absolutely not.

We all know it takes two.

slip ups.

However as men have just as much access to contraception, Vasectomy's, condoms and even the pill, it seems only reasonable that men should have to pay for the consequences of an unwanted result.

Offer to pay/share all costs for an abortion. If the woman won't abort is it reasonable to expect child support?

I actually don't think so..as long as the man used similarly effective contraception and therefore showed a deliberate intention not to father a child.

 

Is there an effective male pill now available? It’s been talked about but I’ve never heard an official announcement.  Faced with an unwanted child and making payments for 18 years, you’d think it would be pretty damn appealing to some guys. 

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10 minutes ago, mad said:

Is there an effective male pill now available? It’s been talked about but I’ve never heard an official announcement.  Faced with an unwanted child and making payments for 18 years, you’d think it would be pretty damn appealing to some guys. 

I once suggested that all males, upon reaching puberty, wank away to their hearts' content and have their sperm frozen, then get a vasectomy.

Problem solved.

This suggestion went down like a lead balloon, in fact one forum member threatened to come and express his displeasure personally. I couldn't see what he was so bent out of shape about.

FKT

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Just out of curiosity, what if the father is willing to pay for the costs of the pregnancy and actually wants sole custody at the end?  Does that factor into the decision making at all?

 

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35 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I once suggested that all males, upon reaching puberty, wank away to their hearts' content and have their sperm frozen, then get a vasectomy.

Problem solved.

This suggestion went down like a lead balloon, in fact one forum member threatened to come and express his displeasure personally. I couldn't see what he was so bent out of shape about.

FKT

Well as it’s never going to happen as you suggested, so it’s a moot point really. 

The next step from your suggestion would be that both parties take contraception until they pass IQ and financial and potentially medical testing before being able to try to conceive. That won’t happen either. 

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29 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Just out of curiosity, what if the father is willing to pay for the costs of the pregnancy and actually wants sole custody at the end?  Does that factor into the decision making at all?

 

No, the male doesn’t have to carry the child with the possible associated risks and physical discomfort of birth. 

However, how do the posters here feel about a woman purposely choosing a male based purely on intelligence and physical fitness in order to conceive only, with no wish to include the father in even knowing about the child and having no presence in its upbringing? This is a situation I know has occurred. 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

No, the male doesn’t have to carry the child with the possible associated risks and physical discomfort of birth. 

However, how do the posters here feel about a woman purposely choosing a male based purely on intelligence and physical fitness in order to conceive only, with no wish to include the father in even knowing about the child and having no presence in its upbringing? This is a situation I know has occurred. 

Happens all the time here in Australia. It's called IVF. The only slight problem I have with it is, the single mother pension that results from a deliberate choice rather than the result of an accident or a failed relationship. But given the downsides I don't have an actual problem with that, just a slight theoretical one.

FKT

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6 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Happens all the time here in Australia. It's called IVF. The only slight problem I have with it is, the single mother pension that results from a deliberate choice rather than the result of an accident or a failed relationship. But given the downsides I don't have an actual problem with that, just a slight theoretical one.

FKT

Valid point regarding IVF, can the women choose any specific details when having IVF from an anonymous donor? Potential hair colour, build etc? 

How do you feel about the similar but physical procreation scenario I listed below?  I’m assuming the sperm donor for IVF has waived any rights to knowledge about the child he has anonymously fathered? 

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17 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

However, I am a hundred times more committed to the concept that women should have the final say on their bodies.  So put me down as anti-abortion but VERY MUCH pro-choice.  The GOP, at least those that have some neurons firing do not want Roe v Wade to come up before 2020 as it will bring out the vote and that never helps.  

That's essentially where I fall on it.

I have some minor push back is when people use 'logic' arguments just because I think they are used to intentionally muddy the waters.   Even if those arguments are well intentioned, It's a womans body.  Men don't get a choice.  Fetuses don't get a choice.  There is no 'equality' in this case.  Biology isn't always fair.  To paraphrase the line - biology doesn't care about your feelings.

 

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8 hours ago, aA said:

congratulations, this is by far your your most ridiculous question. 

 

and that’s saying a lot

The vast majority of abortions are because the woman does not want the responsibility of a baby.  She has choice in the matter and you are saying the man  sould have his choice dictated by the woman. 

 

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12 minutes ago, mad said:

Valid point regarding IVF, can the women choose any specific details when having IVF from an anonymous donor? Potential hair colour, build etc? 

How do you feel about the similar but physical procreation scenario I listed below?  I’m assuming the sperm donor for IVF has waived any rights to knowledge about the child he has anonymously fathered? 

Depends. If the woman then goes after child support I have a huge problem with it.

Otherwise - don't know. I don't like the element of deception involved.

Yes IVF sperm donors are immune to child support claims but not to complete anonymity these days. They can say they don't want contact with any offspring but those offspring are legally entitled to a certain amount of information.

FKT

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Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Depends. If the woman then goes after child support I have a huge problem with it.

Otherwise - don't know. I don't like the element of deception involved.

Yes IVF sperm donors are immune to child support claims but not to complete anonymity these days. They can say they don't want contact with any offspring but those offspring are legally entitled to a certain amount of information.

FKT

The scenario I was alluding to was purely the woman wanting a partner to conceive a child, she had no wish for any involvement from the father financially or emotionally.   Agreed there is a level of deception involved and in the future the child may well wish to know about the fathers background and make contact. I’ve no idea how this situation ended, or if it even has. 

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1 minute ago, mad said:

The scenario I was alluding to was purely the woman wanting a partner to conceive a child, she had no wish for any involvement from the father financially or emotionally.   Agreed there is a level of deception involved and in the future the child may well wish to know about the fathers background and make contact. I’ve no idea how this situation ended, or if it even has. 

It's happened all through history. One can get bent out of shape about it (not suggesting you are, BTW) but it's a waste of time.

Until the advent of DNA testing paternity has always been a somewhat flexible concept. Hell of a lot of women have gotten pregnant by someone other than their putative partner. Genetic counselors sometimes have a very difficult job explaining this.

I've spent years having a detailed involvement with newborn metabolic disorder data.

FKT

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Already women have the right to abandon a baby and relieve themselves of responsibility including financial through abortion and even after birth through safe haven laws (drop the kid at a fire station or hospital).  Men have no such right. 

While letting the father force the woman to have an abortion is ridiculous. I was making a larger point. Abortion exists in largest part so a woman can walk away for an inconvenient pregnancy. For some abortion is the killing of an innocent life, especially late term abortions.  If women have the option to walk away should equality not demand that men have the same right?

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8 hours ago, aA said:

congratulations, this is by far your your most ridiculous question. 

 

and that’s saying a lot

It harkens back to RD’s concept of “Equal Abortion Rights.”  Just when we thought we were free from The Stupid....

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22 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

It's happened all through history. One can get bent out of shape about it (not suggesting you are, BTW) but it's a waste of time.

Until the advent of DNA testing paternity has always been a somewhat flexible concept. Hell of a lot of women have gotten pregnant by someone other than their putative partner. Genetic counselors sometimes have a very difficult job explaining this.

I've spent years having a detailed involvement with newborn metabolic disorder data.

FKT

Correct, I’m not in the slightest way bent out of shape over this.  Just looking at all points of the discussion and wondering how people would feel about it? 

Personally, I’m not sure how I would feel if an unknown child from 20 years ago appeared on my doorstep.  I know of men this happened to and it really didn’t end that too well mostly, on the other hand, a friend found out 2 years after a one-night stand and is now happily married with 2 more children together. It’s a very complicated subject and there isn’t always a clear right or wrong, as long as the welfare of the mother and child are considered first, men will and correctly so, only run a distant third in the list of priorities. 

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9 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

actually, for once Jack raises an interesting point.

Demand abortion..absolutely not.

We all know it takes two.

slip ups.

However as men have just as much access to contraception, Vasectomy's, condoms and even the pill, it seems only reasonable that men should have to pay for the consequences of an unwanted result.

Offer to pay/share all costs for an abortion. If the woman won't abort is it reasonable to expect child support?

I actually don't think so..as long as the man used similarly effective contraception and therefore showed a deliberate intention not to father a child.

 

But men can be snared in a pregnancy trap.   I know a couple misguided young women that recently tried to stabilize their troubled relationships with pregnancy,    It predictably failed in both cases.    The first assured her man she was safe.   The second guy was careful, so she got them both drunk.    He was busy on his career path but his life goals are ruined by an emotionally unstable now ex girlfriend.   Once he sobered up no longer had a choice.  He will have a kid, a job that requires weekly travel, and a crazy ex junky baby momma with even worse family.   This gender war BS does actually go both ways.

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1 minute ago, Lark said:

But men can be snared in a pregnancy trap.   I know a couple misguided young women that recently tried to stabilize their troubled relationships with pregnancy,    It predictably failed in both cases.    The first assured her man she was safe.   The second guy was careful, so she got them both drunk.    He was busy on his career path but his life goals are ruined by an emotionally unstable now ex girlfriend.   Once he sobered up no longer had a choice.  He will have a kid, a job that requires weekly travel, and a crazy ex junky baby momma with even worse family.   This gender war BS does actually go both ways.

I have no idea how people who are having relationship issues can somehow convince themselves than having half as much money, half as much sleep, and half as much free time will somehow make their relationship stronger.  My only explanation is desperation.

 

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3 minutes ago, Lark said:

But men can be snared in a pregnancy trap.   I know a couple misguided young women that recently tried to stabilize their troubled relationships with pregnancy,    It predictably failed in both cases.    The first assured her man she was safe.   The second guy was careful, so she got them both drunk.    He was busy on his career path but his life goals are ruined by an emotionally unstable now ex girlfriend.   Once he sobered up no longer had a choice.  He will have a kid, a job that requires weekly travel, and a crazy ex junky baby momma with even worse family.   This gender war BS does actually go both ways.

one answer to that..take care of your own contraception responsibility

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Vasectomies are cheap and reversible. They are a far more reliable birth control method than “just keep your legs closed”, especially when one considers the ending left out of that quote: “except for me.”

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13 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

What the fuck does that have to do with the lack of an exception for rape & incest? Or the ahistorical view that all abortion is bad? It was, mostly, legal in the colonial era until 3-4 months in.

Anecdotes aren’t data works both ways. 

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6 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

100% agree with all.  Will the recording secretary please note the DTG for the record that I agreed with Cal on something.  :P

Where's my "just saying?"  I feel cheated.  B)

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Speaking of male responsibility:

A buddy of mine was arrested at work for failure to pay child support. The child was 12 years old and he had never paid a dime. One of the reasons he didn't pay was until the cops showed up *he had no idea this child existed* :rolleyes:

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4 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Already women have the right to abandon a baby and relieve themselves of responsibility including financial through abortion and even after birth through safe haven laws (drop the kid at a fire station or hospital).  Men have no such right. 

While letting the father force the woman to have an abortion is ridiculous. I was making a larger point. Abortion exists in largest part so a woman can walk away for an inconvenient pregnancy. For some abortion is the killing of an innocent life, especially late term abortions.  If women have the option to walk away should equality not demand that men have the same right?

It's a compelling situation for sure.  However, no one, man or woman, has a right to force a woman to use her body as an incubator against her will.

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7 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Speaking of male responsibility:

A buddy of mine was arrested at work for failure to pay child support. The child was 12 years old and he had never paid a dime. One of the reasons he didn't pay was until the cops showed up *he had no idea this child existed* :rolleyes:

Had a mate in the same situation, 14 years after the event. A bit late to be seeking back dated child support. :unsure:

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

one answer to that..take care of your own contraception responsibility

The other is to just create enough babies the mothers have no reason to go after you for child support because you are already broke.   This seems to be the trailer trash solution in Ohio.   

Your comment does reflect on the trust issue in a relationship.    When do you decide to finally trust her when she says she prefers the natural feeling?   How does she feel about the lack of trust?    

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97 responses stating strong opinions about abortion and only 2 of them from someone (Shorty) who could even theoretically get pregnant.

Until you guys can get pregnant you are not entitled to an opinion on abortion and should all STFU.

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On 5/18/2019 at 8:38 AM, Cal20sailor said:
On 5/18/2019 at 8:35 AM, CyberBOB said:

A Guy in the Chesapeake.

From a different thread, just pointing out how a real apology works.

If you let this site bother you, take a break.  A bunch of assholes we are throwing shit just like the monkeys.  Have a great weekend.  

It was a compliment to you from Bob.

Chessie was a major twat in another thread, then his apology to me was basically "I'm sorry you made me do that but I was right."

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11 hours ago, cmilliken said:

Just out of curiosity, what if the father is willing to pay for the costs of the pregnancy and actually wants sole custody at the end?  Does that factor into the decision making at all?

 

No unless he's planning to carry it to term in his body.

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9 hours ago, cmilliken said:

That's essentially where I fall on it.

I have some minor push back is when people use 'logic' arguments just because I think they are used to intentionally muddy the waters.   Even if those arguments are well intentioned, It's a womans body.  Men don't get a choice.  Fetuses don't get a choice.  There is no 'equality' in this case.  Biology isn't always fair.  To paraphrase the line - biology doesn't care about your feelings.

 

You'd think the "Fuck your Feelings" crowd would get this.

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48 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

97 responses stating strong opinions about abortion and only 2 of them from someone (Shorty) who could even theoretically get pregnant.

Until you guys can get pregnant you are not entitled to an opinion on abortion and should all STFU.

Great, can we just lock this thread then? 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Great, can we just lock this thread then? 

Are you kidding? What’s Tom going to do 5 years even 10 years from now at 3AM when he’s bored and wants to bump a thread everyone’s forgotten about.  Sometimes I think it’s the only thing that keeps him from going postal with his dogballs.

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6 hours ago, Lark said:

The other is to just create enough babies the mothers have no reason to go after you for child support because you are already broke.   This seems to be the trailer trash solution in Ohio.   

Your comment does reflect on the trust issue in a relationship.    When do you decide to finally trust her when she says she prefers the natural feeling?   How does she feel about the lack of trust?    

Have you ever pondered the number of women made pregnant by men who "promised" to pull out, or refused to use condoms?

This kind of one sided "women trick men" argument makes me sick quite frankly.

Sure their are some women that "accidentally on purpose" get pregnant.

You want to reflect on the history of women's unwanted pregnancy for a little while.

It's not that long ago that rape in marriage was not even recognized.

You think all men respect womens rights NOT to become pregnant?...you think all women can choose even to take the pill without their partners "consent"?

This whining about "my friend got tricked" is simply childish..Like..Mum..she MADE me do it!!!

 the bottom line is ..look after your own sperms.If you can't trust each other you're in the wrong relationship so you better trust yourself .

 

(and PS, women cant feel a condom:rolleyes:)

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21 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Abortion introduces a gender inequality.

A woman can end her responsibility for raising an unwanted child with an abortion. Not so for the father, who can be accessed child support obligations  regardless of hie inclinations toward the child. 

Shouldn't the father have the same right to demand an abortion even if the mother wants to keep the child?

 

No

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