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Almost Half of U.S. Families Can't Afford Basics Like Rent and Food


badlatitude

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37 minutes ago, Importunate Tom said:

Hah! Good thing no such thing has happened since the court decided that we don't have $pecial corporations with $pecial right$ just because they put pink flags on their boats.

 

I don't know what this means, and i'm tired of reading dollar signs in words.  don't write like a 7 year old

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5 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

weird how everyone loves Austin and hates you.  maybe it's because you've never posted anything about sailing, so we all know you're nothing but a ball of decaying political detritus

go on and keep telling him how to farm though

I'm not telling anyone how to farm.  I was just explaining the difference between selling a promissory pig and a real piece of meat.

Go back to the first graph I posted.

CornYieldTrend_US.gif

We are overproducing for our needs and the reason is that production is subsidized.  We still end up with shitloads of corn and lobbyists trying to sell it or find new uses for it before the price goes down.  The only other recourse is to pay to store it until it rots away.  We tried that.  They use any ploy they can.  Say, ethanol as a renewable resource. 

Trouble is that ethanol is not really such a good idea.    In fact, it's really idiotic to increase mileage standards on cars and then force the use of ethanol.  But, those are both government 'environmental' regulations.

The damage is not to our ability to produce corn or pork or any other commodity.  Those very 'safety nets' are counterproductive over the long term. 

If Austin wishes to discuss how to raise pigs I wouldn't bother responding.  Raising critters isn't of interest to me.  But, when you talk about the business of raising pigs that's more interesting.  The futures market will get screwed up as long as there is no trade deal but, we don't need a trade deal becuase it's imperative that we sell pigs or soybeans.

We need a trade deal for a number of reasons including our balance of payments problem and proteciton of intellectual property.  You may have noticed that both Schumer and Pelosi support a new trade deal with China for those reasons.

As to whether anyone on an internet forum 'likes' me; frankly, Heather, I don't give a fuck.

 

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5 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

No, it's their fault for taking the only job they could get, clearly.

They should have gone to a better college or picked a better major. They really had no idea the real solution was to simply choose better parents.

Learning to handle money and live within their means was probably something the parents didn't teach them.

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1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

I'm not telling anyone how to farm.  I was just explaining the difference between selling a promissory pig and a real piece of meat.

If Austin wishes to discuss how to raise pigs I wouldn't bother responding.  Raising critters isn't of interest to me.  But, when you talk about the business of raising pigs that's more interesting. 

 

Are you saying you know something about selling farm-raised pigs in Austin's market?  Maybe something he doesn't?  That would be some useful information.

Otherwise, maybe go back to talking about how ethanol is subsidized and why, cause that is a really interesting conversation and you show real mastery of it.  

Day trading your social security check on your TD Ameritrade account doesn't really qualify you as an expert in futures.

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17 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Are you saying you know something about selling farm-raised pigs in Austin's market?  Maybe something he doesn't?  That would be some useful information.

Otherwise, maybe go back to talking about how ethanol is subsidized and why, cause that is a really interesting conversation and you show real mastery of it.  

Day trading your social security check on your TD Ameritrade account doesn't really qualify you as an expert in futures.

No, I never made that claim.  You pulled it out of your own ass.  In either case, I would rather hear about it from Austin than you.

Like most of the threads around here it devolved into personal attacks and those mean nothing to me.  Particularly when you don't quote or apparently read and consider much of what is posted.

Futures may be useful to farmers as a hedge or to help cash flow but, if you are playing the futures market you need to spend a lot of time fucking around with spreads instead of pigs.

Did you forget the corn that makes the ethanol?  That's a farming subsidy that helps with all that over production.  Then you have to force and subsidize the used of ethanol as a fuel.

It's not a simple thing.  I didn't expect you to understand.

 

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30 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Learning to handle money and live within their means was probably something the parents didn't teach them.

Pay attention. Living within means at $20 per hour is not possible, regardless of purchase decision discipline.

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19 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

No, I never made that claim.  You pulled it out of your own ass.  In either case, I would rather hear about it from Austin than you.

Like most of the threads around here it devolved into personal attacks and those mean nothing to me.  Particularly when you don't quote or apparently read and consider much of what is posted.

Futures may be useful to farmers as a hedge or to help cash flow but, if you are playing the futures market you need to spend a lot of time fucking around with spreads instead of pigs.

Did you forget the corn that makes the ethanol?  That's a farming subsidy that helps with all that over production.  Then you have to force and subsidize the used of ethanol as a fuel.

 It's not a simple thing.  I didn't expect you to understand.

 

you totally just confirmed that everything you know about economics you learned from day trading.  hilarious.

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10 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Is China your only market?

That chart shows pork rising 45% since Christmas.

You really don't have to work so hard at showing us what a fucking fool you are.

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8 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

you totally just confirmed that everything you know about economics you learned from day trading.  hilarious.

 

6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

You really don't have to work so hard at showing us what a fucking fool you are.

 

8 hours ago, Nice! said:

Pay attention. Living within means at $20 per hour is not possible, regardless of purchase decision discipline.

A gathering of Heathers.

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8 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:
 
8 hours ago, Saorsa said:

No, I never made that claim. 

 

.

 

Quote

maybe you should switch to Chicken or Pork. 

 

I haven't seen him posting pictures of his chicken and pigs.  Just a lot of high end beef, his pride in them and the premium price he gets.

Maybe you should learn what maybe means.  It shouldn't be that hard.

 

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16 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Farmer didn't say which market.  The chart is the spot market.  Spot market prices are actually paid for  pigs. 

Futures are selling promises.

 

That's the boxed price or what the packer is getting. Not live price and you never get live prices anyhow.

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42 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

I haven't seen him posting pictures of his chicken and pigs.  Just a lot of high end beef, his pride in them and the premium price he gets.

Maybe you should learn what maybe means.  It shouldn't be that hard.

 

2848046681_0df25b4815_b.jpg

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2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

I haven't seen him posting pictures of his chicken and pigs.  Just a lot of high end beef, his pride in them and the premium price he gets.

Maybe you should learn what maybe means.  It shouldn't be that hard.

 

You too poor to pay attention?

-DSK

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Support your local farmer. If you have a meat farmer nearby who sells what he raises, buy that. I'm eating some left over flank steak from last night's dinner. Unbelievable how much better it is then store bought meat. Plus I can walk out back and see exactly how they are raised. Plus I get to meet the kids who are being supported by my purchases

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12 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

you totally just confirmed that everything you know about economics you learned from day trading.  hilarious.

 

Wall Street, a rigged scam system for the very rich.  And a way to pay less taxes.

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4 hours ago, Saorsa said:

 

Maybe you should learn what maybe means.  It shouldn't be that hard.

 

You might try to learn what 'should' means.  Sad that your mom didn't tell you.  Maybe she wasn't around.

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4 hours ago, austin1972 said:

2848046681_0df25b4815_b.jpg

You've posted that before.  It's the Minister of Information you're talking to; he can look at the picture and repeat what he said before without batting an eye.  

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On 5/28/2019 at 3:51 PM, AJ Oliver said:

Us taxpayers handed out to you a pretty decent K-12 education worth around $ 200K in today's dollars. 

which you apparently wasted.  

On 5/28/2019 at 3:31 PM, Troglodytarum said:

fuck handouts.

Wassa Matter Trog - cat got your tongue ? (no reply to my comment above) 

Want to hear more about all those hand-outs YOU get from us taxpayers ? 

How about those coasties we pay for to save your sorry ass out there on the water ? 

You do sail, don't you ? 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

 I'm paying for their food stamps, subsidizing their child care, and providing housing. 

On a shitty pension and social security?  You're just another fucking entitlement-sucking loser.

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5 minutes ago, Troglodytarum said:

I also have Seatow.  Should that be free to all mariners?

What sort of boat do you sail ? 

And we also pay for those navigational aids, drigging, weather forecasts, etc. 

You're gonna start paying for all that yourself, right? 

Free Stuff Alert !!

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51 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

MASA = Make America Selfish Again.  good work comrade.

By demanding subsidized ethanol and High Fructose Corn Syrup just because you can make it?

 

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3 hours ago, Nice! said:

Care to debate the actual issues, rather than resort to a lame ad hominem attack?

'Scuse me.  That's what I've been doing but the Heathers can't hack it.  Then it becomes a game of insults.

 

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3 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

They're still trying to make the family farm work and the Gov is dangling the carrot in front of their noses in the form of farm subsidies.  They've had plenty of time to regroup so it's past time to cut the subsidies and let the free market set the prices.

Well, the number of farms is decreasing and the size of them is increasing.  In some ways that's because the subsidies encourage overproduction and the most efficient can produce more.

 

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37 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

'Scuse me.  That's what I've been doing but the Heathers can't hack it.  Then it becomes a game of insults.

 

You're the one that started the insults, while also refusing to discuss my point. You are taking too many cues from Trump - accusing others of what you have done yourself.

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1 minute ago, kmacdonald said:

A family of two with each making $20/hour comes out to over $80,000/year.  The lower middle class.

A family of two with each making $20/hour, paying for daycare for 2 children (so both parents can work) nets about $50,000, before even taxes. In how many metropolis areas can you buy a 4 bedroom house on a $50k pre-tax income?

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2 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

Where are you coming up with a net of $50K/year?

$80k per year, subtract child care expenses of 1,200 per month, per kid.

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37 minutes ago, Nice! said:

A family of two with each making $20/hour, paying for daycare for 2 children (so both parents can work) nets about $50,000, before even taxes. In how many metropolis areas can you buy a 4 bedroom house on a $50k pre-tax income?

$20 Ph sounds pretty appealing to a guy who's last paying job was $15Ph with no benefits but 5 paid holidays.(1988)

 Right now most jobs for a qualified person of my talents, and experience are running about $13Ph no benefits, no vacation.

 

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$1,200 per month for two kids in day care is low, even out here in cow country. Sure, you can get the crack whore down the street to keep an eye on them for less than that, but......

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21 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

$20 Ph sounds pretty appealing to a guy who's last paying job was $15Ph with no benefits but 5 paid holidays.(1988)

 Right now most jobs for a qualified person of my talents, and experience are running about $13Ph no benefits, no vacation.

 

I can't believe you have no talents or experience??  I could quit my job and make 25-50 an hour doing light contracting work.  But that can be spotty worm, so I settle for the present 10 dollar take home an hour job, that's that it's a steady 40 hours, or up to 55, if I want to max the overtime, and 4 weeks PTO, and not bad health care, and it would cost me $700/month to Cobra my health care until next June when I will go on Medicare.  Surely there is similar work like that, where you are???

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1 hour ago, Nice! said:

You're the one that started the insults, while also refusing to discuss my point. You are taking too many cues from Trump - accusing others of what you have done yourself.

It's the way of the conservative. AGuy was so bad I fear he looked in a mirror, hated what he saw, and went on a self-imposed penalty cruise with NM2.

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8 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I can't believe you have no talents or experience??  I could quit my job and make 25-50 an hour doing light contracting work.  But that can be spotty worm, so I settle for the present 10 dollar take home an hour job, that's that it's a steady 40 hours, or up to 55, if I want to max the overtime, and 4 weeks PTO, and not bad health care, and it would cost me $700/month to Cobra my health care until next June when I will go on Medicare.  Surely there is similar work like that, where you are???

I was basing the discussion on the comment earlier that 60% of jobs in the US are less than $22/hour.

Even rich people need a society of consumers with expendable income to keep getting more rich. That stat shows, to me, an economy that is in imminent danger of collapse.

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26 minutes ago, Nice! said:

I was basing the discussion on the comment earlier that 60% of jobs in the US are less than $22/hour.

Even rich people need a society of consumers with expendable income to keep getting more rich. That stat shows, to me, an economy that is in imminent danger of collapse.

 

I think you meant to reply to kmacdonald who quoted you just above?  I make that mistake a lot, but usually catch myself before hitting "Submit Reply".

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1 hour ago, Nice! said:

A family of two with each making $20/hour, paying for daycare for 2 children (so both parents can work) nets about $50,000, before even taxes. In how many metropolis areas can you buy a 4 bedroom house on a $50k pre-tax income?

Why a 4 bedroom house? Why not a 3 bedroom with 1.1 baths. On an 80k income that is easily done in much of the US 

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7 minutes ago, chinabald said:

Why a 4 bedroom house? Why not a 3 bedroom with 1.1 baths. On an 80k income that is easily done in much of the US 

Because they have 2 kids and need a guest-room where the in-laws will stay, since they can't afford full-time childcare for both kids on an 80k income.

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I can't believe you have no talents or experience??  I could quit my job and make 25-50 an hour doing light contracting work.  But that can be spotty worm, so I settle for the present 10 dollar take home an hour job, that's that it's a steady 40 hours, or up to 55, if I want to max the overtime, and 4 weeks PTO, and not bad health care, and it would cost me $700/month to Cobra my health care until next June when I will go on Medicare.  Surely there is similar work like that, where you are???

You'd think that 38 years of cabinet making, furniture design/construction, (With advanced degrees in design), boat building, heavy construction, post and beam construction, and lutherie would make me a valuable commodity..... But no..... I'm considered a laborer by industry standards.... Now if I was an experienced HVAC guy, I could make up to $18 per hour if I had my own tools, a clean driving record, and my own truck.....

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22 hours ago, Nice! said:

Pay attention. Living within means at $20 per hour is not possible, regardless of purchase decision discipline.

I'm not sure if you think you were making a point.

Sure it is.  Plenty of people are doing so.  You want me to develop a budget for you?

Perhaps you haven't noticed me call for elimination of FICA taxes on the first 10K of earnings which would be about the biggest relief that the government could give low wage workers.

I see now you've started developing some hypothetical family.

Lets start with your 4 person family.

First, Even before you become a four person family you should think; at least a little bit.  If you want to have a spouse and two kiddies go to a trade school and learn a trade that pays more than $20 per hour. 

If you can't live on 40K per year then each spouse needs to get a job on shiftwork so that one parent is home with the kiddies when necessary.  Once the kids are in school hours can be expanded.

Rent you domicile within your budget.  You don't need a four bedroom house with room for the in-laws.  In fact, don't pay for daycare, drop the kids off at the in-laws and you can work the same shift.

Learn to budget and stick to it.

Learn to cook.  There are plenty of good, healthy, economical meals that can be prepared for not a lot of money.

If you live in a city you can't afford, get out.

 

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54 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

I'm not sure if you think you were making a point.

Sure it is.  Plenty of people are doing so.  You want me to develop a budget for you?

Perhaps you haven't noticed me call for elimination of FICA taxes on the first 10K of earnings which would be about the biggest relief that the government could give low wage workers.

I see now you've started developing some hypothetical family.

Lets start with your 4 person family.

First, Even before you become a four person family you should think; at least a little bit.  If you want to have a spouse and two kiddies go to a trade school and learn a trade that pays more than $20 per hour. 

If you can't live on 40K per year then each spouse needs to get a job on shiftwork so that one parent is home with the kiddies when necessary.  Once the kids are in school hours can be expanded.

Rent you domicile within your budget.  You don't need a four bedroom house with room for the in-laws.  In fact, don't pay for daycare, drop the kids off at the in-laws and you can work the same shift.

Learn to budget and stick to it.

Learn to cook.  There are plenty of good, healthy, economical meals that can be prepared for not a lot of money.

If you live in a city you can't afford, get out.

 

What about the almost 50% of U.S. families who cannot afford the basics of rent and food? Hypotheticals are nice, but they rarely address the heart of the problem.

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3 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

The facts just don't support that.  I don't see half of US families living on the streets, do you?  I never read malnourishment is the leading cause of death in the US either.  This is a prime example of why rational people won't have a conversation with you.  You're too fucking stupid and blind to the obvious.

Sheesh, it must be very confusing in that head of yours. It's a wonder that you even made it out of the trees, poor soul. 

PS. They have a name for all those homeless encampments, they call them Trump cities now.

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8 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

Just because you are still living in mommy and daddy's basement doesn't mean half the US families are doing the same.  Get the fuck out of there are at least attempt to make something of yourself.

 

lol, you are a terrible troll. People will never accuse you of having nothing, you will always have inferiority.

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1 hour ago, badlatitude said:

What about the almost 50% of U.S. families who cannot afford the basics of rent and food? Hypotheticals are nice, but they rarely address the heart of the problem.

50% unable to afford both a place to sleep and something to eat would seem a rather large number. What metrics are used to judge such a number. Not that I think things are good, just that 50% sounds like bullshit.

Edit: Just had a look at Alice. The number seems to be those struggling, not unable to sleep or eat. Also no obviotdata on how they work there number out, not that I care, looks like a number designed to be worse than it is, when it is bad enough without the hyperbole. 

The big problem is that western countries are becoming low wage societies. Many of the new jobs created are minimum wage with no chance of going any higher. This is a situation that has been on the way for several decades and is a system problem, not a party problem.

Those that just say retrain and become a coder/electronics guy etc are just being dumb. There are not enough high paying positions and education levels are to low. In Kiwi the situation is made worse by successive governments over the last couple of decades that have encouraged low skillled immigration in high numbers. So if you think of asking for more there is a replacement that will accept even less than minimum. 

Those that just say move where the work is are also playing with their little todgers. How does the person, struggling to survive, save the money to move. Pay for accommodation until they find a new place. Pay the new bond on the new place. Replace the furniture they couldn’t afford to put in storage then get shipped when they find a place. All in a new city where they have no support structure around them. 

Sorry, rant over. You guys get back to your dumb ass left/right blame game which gets absolutely nowhere and shows points scored against imagined enemies are more important than possible answers. 

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57 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

The facts just don't support that.  I don't see half of US families living on the streets, do you?  I never read malnourishment is the leading cause of death in the US either.  This is a prime example of why rational people won't have a conversation with you.  You're too fucking stupid and blind to the obvious.

So cite us some of your magical Reich-wing facts  . . . 

BadLat did so.  You, not so much. 

 

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2 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

So cite us some of your magical Reich-wing facts  . . . 

BadLat did so.  You, not so much. 

 

He's Ignore bait. At least stop quoting the fool.

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1 hour ago, badlatitude said:
2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

First, Even before you become a four person family you should think; at least a little bit.  If you want to have a spouse and two kiddies go to a trade school and learn a trade that pays more than $20 per hour. 

If you can't live on 40K per year then each spouse needs to get a job on shiftwork so that one parent is home with the kiddies when necessary.  Once the kids are in school hours can be expanded.

Rent you domicile within your budget.  You don't need a four bedroom house with room for the in-laws.  In fact, don't pay for daycare, drop the kids off at the in-laws and you can work the same shift.

Learn to budget and stick to it.

Learn to cook.  There are plenty of good, healthy, economical meals that can be prepared for not a lot of money.

If you live in a city you can't afford, get out.

 

What about the almost 50% of U.S. families who cannot afford the basics of rent and food? Hypotheticals are nice, but they rarely address the heart of the problem.

It amazes me how quickly these people are willing to sentence someone to a COMPLETE SHIT life at some people in order to pretend there isn't a problem with the way we do things in the USA. To avoid recognizing that our priorities in the USA are deeply screwed, as a culture.

 

What soreass is proposing as a completely reasonable lifestyle is the following:

  • Two parents working full time on opposing shifts, so they rarely get to see each other.
  • The immediate drafting of grandparents as caregivers. As if the grandparents already aren't still working, are nearby, and are willing and able to give up their retirement to be able to raise their grandkids.
  • "Just Move" if you can't afford to live where you are.
  • Oh, and just "eat cheaper"

Yeah, you can certainly do some of that. Low quality, highly processed food is WAY cheaper than healthy stuff. So let's make sure we don't give anyone health care or school lunches, then victim blame them when they get fat eating the industrialized garbage that is 90% fat and corn syrup they can afford.

Or let's just...not have a family. Parents don't need to SEE each other, do they?

And those grandparents are just sitting around doing nothing, waiting to provide childcare. Not like they have lives of their own, or needs of their own. HELLO....can we stop ignoring the elephant in the room and realize that this same group of numbnuts is going to claim you shouldn't put grandma on an ice floe when she gets old because her KIDS should take care of her.

You know, the same kids that can't take care of their own children because they are working too much.

 

The mind boggles, because we shit all over our own population and don't care on iota that anyone who's not a millionaire has any sort of quality of life.

There are actually countries in the world where it is NOT required to be a wage slave for every waking hour in order to raise a family, where you don't need to work yourself into an early grave to put food on the table or go six figures in debt to put your kids through college.

There are countries that have figured this out, but these selfish right wing victim-blaming poor shaming assholes are going to turn the U.S. into a third world shithole with their constant worship of the uber-wealthy and hate for the common man.

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1 hour ago, badlatitude said:
2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

First, Even before you become a four person family you should think; at least a little bit.  If you want to have a spouse and two kiddies go to a trade school and learn a trade that pays more than $20 per hour. 

If you can't live on 40K per year then each spouse needs to get a job on shiftwork so that one parent is home with the kiddies when ne

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6 hours ago, kmacdonald said:

Better add the income of the inlaws to the household income then.  We'll go from there.

You mean the retired inlaws? Who, because they worked for $20/hour were never able to contribute to their 401k?

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On 5/29/2019 at 9:51 PM, VhmSays said:

When Obama in the 2010 SOTU, said  "Well, I don't think American elections should be bankrolled by America's most powerful interests, or worse, by foreign entities." On television, the camera shifted to a shot of the SCOTUS and Justice Samuel Alito was frowning, shaking his head side to side while mouthing the words "Not true".

I'd really like to know what he thinks of the decision now.

Are you talking about the same Obama who spent over 3/4 of a BILLION dollars on the 2012 election campaign??  Less than half of that money came from individual donors and a smaller fraction came from small individual  donors.  I agree with his words BTW.  But the reality is that's all they were....  Words.  Just saying.

 

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On 5/29/2019 at 4:08 PM, Saorsa said:

OBTW, maybe you should switch to Chicken or Pork.  Apparently the Chinese are having problems there.

775x-1-Meat-Mounting.png

 

"Meat Mounting"???  There's gotta be a joke in there somewhere. 

I take it the US Meat industry advertising slogan is:  "No one can beat our meat the way we can"

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On 5/29/2019 at 4:22 PM, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

doesn't understand fuckall about China, Chinese history, or what he's up against - and neither do the US public.

But you know all about Jhyna, right?

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On 5/30/2019 at 5:51 AM, Importunate Tom said:

Hah! Good thing no such thing has happened since the court decided that we don't have $pecial corporations with $pecial right$ just because they put pink flags on their boats.

I suspect he continues to believe that designating certain corporations as $pecial pre$$ corporations with extra first amendment rights not enjoyed by non-profit, non-press corporations like the NAACP Inc. and Citizens United Inc. was a mistake and the court got it right saying no to that.

Time to repeal the 1st Amendment then.....

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On 5/30/2019 at 7:01 AM, Nice! said:

Pay attention. Living within means at $20 per hour is not possible, regardless of purchase decision discipline.

BS.  Utter.

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2 hours ago, Gissie said:

Edit: Just had a look at Alice. The number seems to be those struggling, not unable to sleep or eat. Also no obviotdata obvious data on how they work there number out, not that I care, looks like a number designed to be worse than it is, when it is bad enough without the hyperbole. 

Yah think????  I asked a couple of basic questions about these ALICEs to better understand what their circumstances really are - and I got nothing but messenger attacked.  Typical for this crowd here, really.

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2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

Or let's just...not have a family.

Yes,  THAT is absolutely one viable way not be be fucking chronically poor!!! 

I'm sorry, but if you are struggling to put food on the table as a low educated barely HS graduate working as a stock boy at Walmart on the night shift..... then YES, it might be a better decision to not bring in more mouths to feed into your household.  Last I checked, it was still possible to buy a 12 pack of condoms on a min wage salary and still have beer money left over.  

So rather than getting married or getting your GF knocked up at 19 and then again at 20 (like you couldn't figure out where babies came from the first time!!) - maybe, just maybe, you keep your dick in your pants or at least covered, work your ass off as a stock boy, maybe take some CC classes, get an associate's degree or learn a trade and move into some other higher paying jobs.  Or join the Marines and get a free full ride college degree, along with some skills and discipline. 

Then...... When you CAN afford a family at say 25, 29 or even early 30s - then fill your boots and have that kid.  I don't recall reading anywhere in the US Connie that says you have a right to have children and the gov't has to pay for it.  

There's already too many people in this world already.  We don't need even more we can't feed and educate without the big nanny state subsidizing even more children.  

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2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

There are actually countries in the world where it is NOT required to be a wage slave for every waking hour in order to raise a family, where you don't need to work yourself into an early grave to put food on the table or go six figures in debt to put your kids through college.

There are countries that have figured this out, but these selfish right wing victim-blaming poor shaming assholes are going to turn the U.S.

I'm curious BJ... what exactly (details please) do those countries do differently and who are they?  

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
On 5/29/2019 at 11:50 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

We can actually thank a much more specific thing. 

BS.  As much as I despise the CU ruling - it certainly didn't start there CU accelerated it, for sure. 

How would you know? Have you read the opinions?

2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
On 5/29/2019 at 9:51 PM, Importunate Tom said:

Hah! Good thing no such thing has happened since the court decided that we don't have $pecial corporations with $pecial right$ just because they put pink flags on their boats.

I suspect he continues to believe that designating certain corporations as $pecial pre$$ corporations with extra first amendment rights not enjoyed by non-profit, non-press corporations like the NAACP Inc. and Citizens United Inc. was a mistake and the court got it right saying no to that.

Time to repeal the 1st Amendment then.....

Why? It has applied to non-profit, non-pre$$ corporations all my life. This didn't become a problem until one of them said bad things about Hillary.

That's still not a problem to me. Why is it to you?

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I'm curious BJ... what exactly (details please) do those countries do differently and who are they?  

Norway, Sweden, and much of Europe have considerably better policies for family and parental leave, child care, minimum wage, healthcare, basic job safety nets, etc. Their taxes are a little higher than the U.S., but they do spend a lot less on things like military and healthcare per capita.

Almost EVERY industrialized nation except the U.S. has got some form of better vacations, healthcare, child care, family leave, and so on than the U.S. does.

A couple of examples of the best places to live:

Sweden:

http://www.gmfus.org/blog/2013/12/18/swedens-social-welfare-system-close

https://www.thenewbieguide.se/just-arrived/register-for-welfare/parental-leave/

  • new parents get 480 days of parental leave and a child allowance from the state. That's total, with 90 days each for each parent, and the balance for either parent. Payment is 100% of salary for 80% of it (up to a cap) and 80% of salary for the balance
  • There is free day-care offered from age 1
  • free primary and secondary school system that promotes democratic values.
  • School lunches are free for all students.
  • University and post-graduate studies are free.
  • Healthcare and dental coverage is high quality and universal, and patients choose their doctors.
  • A public pension system reserves a portion of your income for retirement

 

 

 

Norway (Yeah, Huff post, but it's sourced)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/norway-best-country-to-live_n_5a6059c7e4b046f0811d0235

Quote

When Simon and Julie Irgens’ first child, Henning, was born, they both took several months of parental leave to be at home with their newborn ― some time together, some on their own. They did the same two years later when Henning’s little sister Inez was born, and the same again when Axel, now two, was born.

Altogether, the Irgens have enjoyed a total of three years’ leave, paid for by the government.

“Having that time with the kids from the start has been extremely important to me. To all of us,” said Simon, a Danish architect who moved to Julie’s home country of Norway in 2011. “It gave me a chance to bond with them from the beginning; it made us more equal as parents from an early stage in their life.”

The Irgens are in an intense period of their lives, juggling full-time jobs and raising children, but they say they feel supported by their workplaces.

“At our workplaces there is a collective understanding that your kids and family come first. At 3:30 p.m., I stop whatever I’m doing and leave work to fetch our kids,” said Julie, a writer, adding, “I don’t think the workplaces would attract the most talented people if they wouldn’t offer this kind of flexibility.”

 

Quote

Parent-friendly policies are just one part of Norway’s welfare state. Everyone is covered by public health insurance ― meaning free health care at the point of access ― the country offers free public school as well as higher education, and workers rights and unions are strong. If you lose your job or fall ill, the welfare system has your back, with the government providing financial support for over a year in some cases.

The Norwegian Labour and Welfare Administration administers one-third of the national budget ― 468 billion krone ($58 billion) ― through unemployment benefits, work assessment allowances, sickness benefits, pensions, child benefits and cash-for-care benefits.

Of course, all these policies cost money. Norway benefits from a $1 trillion sovereign wealth fund built from the profits of the country’s oil riches. The country is also considered to have high taxes: The average income tax for a single person with no child is 27.9 percent (it is 26 percent in the U.S.), according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, with top incomes taxed at a rate of 39 percent. And a 25 percent value-added tax on most goods and services makes Norway one of the most expensive countries to live in.

That said, Norway has one of the highest median salaries in the world, and the country fares well when it comes to equal pay for men and women. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Saorsa said:

I'm not sure if you think you were making a point.

Sure it is.  Plenty of people are doing so.  You want me to develop a budget for you?

Perhaps you haven't noticed me call for elimination of FICA taxes on the first 10K of earnings which would be about the biggest relief that the government could give low wage workers.

I see now you've started developing some hypothetical family.

Lets start with your 4 person family.

First, Even before you become a four person family you should think; at least a little bit.  If you want to have a spouse and two kiddies go to a trade school and learn a trade that pays more than $20 per hour. 

If you can't live on 40K per year then each spouse needs to get a job on shiftwork so that one parent is home with the kiddies when necessary.  Once the kids are in school hours can be expanded.

Rent you domicile within your budget.  You don't need a four bedroom house with room for the in-laws.  In fact, don't pay for daycare, drop the kids off at the in-laws and you can work the same shift.

Learn to budget and stick to it.

Learn to cook.  There are plenty of good, healthy, economical meals that can be prepared for not a lot of money.

If you live in a city you can't afford, get out.

 

There are very few jobs in Charlotte County that pay $20.00/hour.  I do not have actual numbers.  But yesterday I talked to a fellow that sells kitchen cabinets at Home Depot.  He has many years of experience in the construction field.  Is $11.00/hour enough to live on?

Ask the guy that works for the guy that owns the lawn service that cuts your yard how much he makes. 

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11 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I can't believe you have no talents or experience??  I could quit my job and make 25-50 an hour doing light contracting work.  But that can be spotty worm, so I settle for the present 10 dollar take home an hour job, that's that it's a steady 40 hours, or up to 55, if I want to max the overtime, and 4 weeks PTO, and not bad health care, and it would cost me $700/month to Cobra my health care until next June when I will go on Medicare.  Surely there is similar work like that, where you are???

As I was told many, many years age, " Here in Florida we take the sunshine out of your paycheck".

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

BS.  As much as I despise the CU ruling - it certainly didn't start there CU accelerated it, for sure.  

What the fuck are you on about now?  The ruling absolutely 'started there' because before the ruling, corporations couldn't donate a billion dollars to a super PAC.  Now they can not only donate whatever they want, they don't have to disclose it.  Outside spending has absolutely exploded, and its been funding and fomenting the kind of unrest that we now see.  

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8 hours ago, badlatitude said:

What about the almost 50% of U.S. families who cannot afford the basics of rent and food? Hypotheticals are nice, but they rarely address the heart of the problem.

Define basic and we can get more specific. If your basics are only rent and food (as you stated) I don't believe your number.  Until you do that your statistic is suspect.

I know people cruising on less than 40K per year.  I can't come up with a list of expenses that adds up to that if I look at a decent diet prepared at home.

There are any number of sites that can give you a plan to live on 40K a year.  Most of them just give normal living advice and sample budgets.  You should be able to adapt your own life from the many ways that it can be accomplished.

Google living on 40K per year.  I got over 9 million hits in .72 second.  The few I looked at seemed reasonable but you need to adapt to your own needs and keep your desires in check.

I have previously pointed out that all though everyone thinks they are middle class we really have a working class with credit cards.

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7 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

Tax code.

You wrote "At $80K a year, the gov would be subsidizing their child care expenses"

Are you saying that if they make more than $80k then the government is not subsidizing their child care expenses?  Can you explain how this subsidy works, and if it applies only to the poor or to everyone?  

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2 hours ago, Fat Point Jack said:

There are very few jobs in Charlotte County that pay $20.00/hour.  I do not have actual numbers.  But yesterday I talked to a fellow that sells kitchen cabinets at Home Depot.  He has many years of experience in the construction field.  Is $11.00/hour enough to live on?

Ask the guy that works for the guy that owns the lawn service that cuts your yard how much he makes. 

If the guy is working at Home Depot he isn't working in construction, he's working in retail sales.  There is plenty of construction going on in Punta Gorda at present.  Vacant lots in the Historic District are filling in as are those in PGI and other underdeveloped areas of town.

My lawn service is run by a family out in Nocatee/Arcadia area.  They are doing well enough that they bring in labor from Mexico with work visas that they sponsor and guarantee.  (I checked) I think they actually run a rotation from a couple of small towns in the middle of Mexico where their family comes from.  All their gear is new and well maintained.   I know they do at least 5 homes on my street which are adjacent properties without fences.  There are two more up the street that they can't do as one big lawn.  They are in and out in a part of a morning including shrubbery maintenance and lawn.  It costs me $95 a month year round but they don't cut the lawn every week during the low growth season.

I have no idea what their total income is. It doesn't cost a lot to start your own lawn service if you want to be the guy that owns it.

 

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11 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

A CPA would be better qualified to answer this but I'll take a stab at it.  You can claim a tax credit of 35% of qualified day care expenses up to a total of $3K for one child or $6K for two or more children if your joint income is $400.000 or less.  It phases out above that.  For single parents it phases out at $200K.

In plain english, for most US citizens, the gov pays 35% of your day care expenses.

That's not plain english, cause in plain english, the US government pays an average of under 10% of child care expenses for those who need it, and it doesn't actually pay it, it provides a tax credit that you may or may not be able to use depending on your job.  If you had kids or grandkids you would probably know this.

When you leave out words like 'qualified' in your summary sentence, you change the meaning of the Code section completely.  Did you learn that from the Atty General?

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Define basic and we can get more specific. If your basics are only rent and food (as you stated) I don't believe your number.  Until you do that your statistic is suspect.

I know people cruising on less than 40K per year.  I can't come up with a list of expenses that adds up to that if I look at a decent diet prepared at home.

There are any number of sites that can give you a plan to live on 40K a year.  Most of them just give normal living advice and sample budgets.  You should be able to adapt your own life from the many ways that it can be accomplished.

Google living on 40K per year.  I got over 9 million hits in .72 second.  The few I looked at seemed reasonable but you need to adapt to your own needs and keep your desires in check.

I have previously pointed out that all though everyone thinks they are middle class we really have a working class with credit cards.

How about 70% of college students, or 44 million Americans holding $1.5 Trillion in student debt? How does that affect rent and food? Three million senior citizens are carrying student loan debt to help their children. Skyrocketing rents are complicating the issue as are tariffs, which jack up food prices and host of other products. We've been ignoring these issues for a long time, and now the piper wants his pay. In 2008, we had a recession that nearly destroyed our economy and now we have a possible return to an almost identical situation later this year or next. All the googling for solutions won't fix problems when there is no income coming in, this problem will get much worse.

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9 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

How about 70% of college students, or 44 million Americans holding $1.5 Trillion in student debt? How does that affect rent and food? Three million senior citizens are carrying student loan debt to help their children. Skyrocketing rents are complicating the issue as are tariffs, which jack up food prices and host of other products. We've been ignoring these issues for a long time, and now the piper wants his pay. In 2008, we had a recession that nearly destroyed our economy and now we have a possible return to an almost identical situation later this year or next. All the googling for solutions won't fix problems when there is no income coming in, this problem will get much worse.

We've covered that.  Student debt is not necessary.  It's a way to avoid going to work and supporting yourself while improving your skills pretending that there is a big paying job at the end.  You get to pledge a good part of your future income for an overpriced (cost rising much, much faster than inflation) commodity that you finance with your future.

If student loans were limited to tuition and books without all the other stuff you can borrow for people might have a more realistic view of their borrowing

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47 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's not plain english, cause in plain english, the US government pays an average of under 10% of child care expenses for those who need it, and it doesn't actually pay it, it provides a tax credit that you may or may not be able to use depending on your job.  If you had kids or grandkids you would probably know this.

When you leave out words like 'qualified' in your summary sentence, you change the meaning of the Code section completely.  Did you learn that from the Atty General?

If you can't care for your children, why have them?

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7 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

We've covered that.  Student debt is not necessary.  It's a way to avoid going to work and supporting yourself while improving your skills pretending that there is a big paying job at the end.  You get to pledge a good part of your future income for an overpriced (cost rising much, much faster than inflation) commodity that you finance with your future.

If student loans were limited to tuition and books without all the other stuff you can borrow for people might have a more realistic view of their borrowing

In the meantime, 44 million people are stuck with $1.5 Trillion in student loan debt, that issue will not go away.

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35 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

It was their choice. They knew or should have known what they were getting into.  Apparently you made some foolish mistakes in the way of education and borrowing.

I would not assume anything.

Personally, I was fortunate to receive loans.  They were paid long ago.

I make more than the average bear. Lucky me.

I am not sure what height your looking at us from.  Stand on the ground and tell me what you see.

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6 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Yes, many of the places that are cheap to live in the US don't have many high paying jobs. Conversely some of the really expensive places to live, like San Francisco, have the highest average salary in the world https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-highest-salaries-in-the-world-zurich-13863696.php 

Arbitraging things - a high paying job in the cheap boondocks, or low cost of living in San Francisco is not a scalable solution for populations in the millions of people.

Which is why using national statistics is rank idiocy and is the premise of this entire thread.

 

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5 hours ago, kmacdonald said:

Great.  Start packing!!!!!

 

Seriously, I and many others would start packing, but for being tied here to family members, friends and investments here, that can only be reasonably managed by staying here.  My wife's best friend lived in Denmark for many years and the difference in quality of life, medical care, lifespan, and many other measures of high quality living were starkly better there, than here, where she moved back to 20 years ago.  Have you ever been outside of the USA, and seen first hand how other first world cultures live?  I kind of doubt it.  We are way behind many, or most, in many measurable ways.

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52 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
5 hours ago, Fat Point Jack said:

There are very few jobs in Charlotte County that pay $20.00/hour.  I do not have actual numbers.  But yesterday I talked to a fellow that sells kitchen cabinets at Home Depot.  He has many years of experience in the construction field.  Is $11.00/hour enough to live on?

Ask the guy that works for the guy that owns the lawn service that cuts your yard how much he makes. 

Yes, many of the places that are cheap to live in the US don't have many high paying jobs. Conversely some of the really expensive places to live, like San Francisco, have the highest average salary in the world https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-highest-salaries-in-the-world-zurich-13863696.php 

Arbitraging things - a high paying job in the cheap boondocks, or low cost of living in San Francisco is not a scalable solution for populations in the millions of people.

When the people who work in big-box retailers can't afford to shop at the same store they work in, what is the long-term prospect for their business? They're so intent on winning the race to the bottom, they cannot see where we're headed.

For much of my working life, I did exactly as MJ suggested, living cheap in the boondocks on the fringes of an expensive metro area. The decline in our infrastructure makes that very difficult now.

 

25 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
47 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Which is why using national statistics is rank idiocy and is the premise of this entire thread.

They didn't use national statistics for the OPs article dumbass - they broke it down by state and further.

This thread is you not reading, responding with your googled smug, then doubling down because you can't fucking admit you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and blaming everyone else for your own rank idiocy.

It's not just Sore-ass. It's ~35% of the voters. Aggressively stupid and spitefully enjoying the idea that the rest of the country is being punished for their own stupidity and hatred. Will they learn? Hell no, the whole idea is to heap doom and unmitigated failure on anybody who thinks "learning" is good.

Being stupid is painful. They seem to believe that through pure meanness, they can inflict  enough pain on others to make it worth while.

-DSK

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9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Are you talking about the same Obama who spent over 3/4 of a BILLION dollars on the 2012 election campaign??  Less than half of that money came from individual donors and a smaller fraction came from small individual  donors.  I agree with his words BTW.  But the reality is that's all they were....  Words.  Just saying.

 

Once the SCOTUS had ruled the game changed, that doesn't mean you don't express regret though you play by the new rules. 

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8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
11 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

Or let's just...not have a family.

 Yes,  THAT is absolutely one viable way not be be fucking chronically poor!!! 

I'm sorry, but if you are struggling to put food on the table as a low educated barely HS graduate working as a stock boy at Walmart on the night shift..... then YES, it might be a better decision to not bring in more mouths to feed into your household.  Last I checked, it was still possible to buy a 12 pack of condoms on a min wage salary and still have beer money left over.  

So rather than getting married or getting your GF knocked up at 19 and then again at 20 (like you couldn't figure out where babies came from the first time!!) - maybe, just maybe, you keep your dick in your pants or at least covered, work your ass off as a stock boy, maybe take some CC classes, get an associate's degree or learn a trade and move into some other higher paying jobs.  Or join the Marines and get a free full ride college degree, along with some skills and discipline. 

Then...... When you CAN afford a family at say 25, 29 or even early 30s - then fill your boots and have that kid.  I don't recall reading anywhere in the US Connie that says you have a right to have children and the gov't has to pay for it.  

 There's already too many people in this world already.  We don't need even more we can't feed and educate without the big nanny state subsidizing even more children.  

@B.J. Porter, I see you’ve completely ignored this response to you,  I will assume by your silence that you agree with me.  

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16 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

@B.J. Porter, I see you’ve completely ignored this response to you,  I will assume by your silence that you agree with me.  

 

He's 12 hours difference in time zones, no?

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17 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

@B.J. Porter, I see you’ve completely ignored this response to you,  I will assume by your silence that you agree with me.  

I'm sure at least once I've called you an asshole and you ignored me.  I will assume by your silence...  B)

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17 minutes ago, Rat's ass said:

The Porker is a late term abortion advocate. If you don't want the baby then merely exterminate it before it leaves the birth canal. Better yet as an incentive they could pay the " fucking chronically poor" mother directly for the fetus. $-) 

Decided to lose your mind like @A guy in the Chesapeake?

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

the familiar refrain of those who could never have kids 

I guess you can't answer the question and need to attack.

Go ahead, it's all ya' got.

 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

When the people who work in big-box retailers can't afford to shop at the same store they work in, what is the long-term prospect for their business? They're so intent on winning the race to the bottom, they cannot see where we're headed.

For much of my working life, I did exactly as MJ suggested, living cheap in the boondocks on the fringes of an expensive metro area. The decline in our infrastructure makes that very difficult now.

 

It's not just Sore-ass. It's ~35% of the voters. Aggressively stupid and spitefully enjoying the idea that the rest of the country is being punished for their own stupidity and hatred. Will they learn? Hell no, the whole idea is to heap doom and unmitigated failure on anybody who thinks "learning" is good.

Being stupid is painful. They seem to believe that through pure meanness, they can inflict  enough pain on others to make it worth while.

-DSK

No, this thread was started on the basis of a national statistic which is stated in the title.  If you want to argue state by state then I suggest that you can figure out whether you can find housing and food (also the OPs premise) in NC for 20K per year.  I know I could as I could in Charlotte County FL.

But to show you why the this national statistic as a "fact" is silly, ponder the national implications of all the children in Lake Woebegone being above average.

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7 hours ago, kmacdonald said:

Really.  I gave actual high end day care costs for a Washington DC suburb.  It was less than half of what Nice estimated.

Your child care numbers were actually incorrect. Average child care for Washington DC is almost $1900. And if you're using Washington DC as an example, child care averages 35% of the average salary, and less than 10% of families can afford it there. The average worker in DC would need to work 54 weeks a year just to pay for child care.

To be fair, DC is the most expensive for child care. But the average appears to be well over the $500 ish that you quoted.

https://infographicjournal.com/the-cost-of-child-care-in-the-united-states/

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1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

a national statistic

The fact is we have an economic distribution that is bad and getting worse.  Not just in the USA...

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

Seriously, I and many others would start packing, but for being tied here to family members, friends and investments here, that can only be reasonably managed by staying here.  My wife's best friend lived in Denmark for many years and the difference in quality of life, medical care, lifespan, and many other measures of high quality living were starkly better there, than here, where she moved back to 20 years ago.  Have you ever been outside of the USA, and seen first hand how other first world cultures live?  I kind of doubt it.  We are way behind many, or most, in many measurable ways.

You are a landlord who owns rental properties if I am to believe your prior posts.

You have wealth.  You are getting income (and more wealth) from the very folks you claim are exploited because they can't afford to buy a house. 

What is your problem?  Not enough?

 

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8 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Again - it's a national statistic based on state and count level analysis.

 

 

Actually, there is a clue there that you never seem to have seen let alone considered.

We are a big nation with more diversity in our nation than any other. 

The real idiocy of national statistics shows the need for a stronger state and local government approach to problem solving.  Believing that the fate of a nation which defines itself as a congregation of individual states as the domain of two political parties is stupid.

This is one reason that large scale federal programs are outrageously expensive and most often create more inequities than they solve.

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