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no more Miami to Havana Race


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The State Department announced that "going forward, the United States will prohibit US travelers from going to Cuba under the previous 'group people-to-people educational' travel authorization. In addition, the United States will no longer permit visits to Cuba via passenger and recreational vessels, including cruise ships and yachts, and private and corporate aircraft."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/04/politics/us-cuba-travel-restrictions/index.html

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5 minutes ago, dacapo said:

The State Department announced that "going forward, the United States will prohibit US travelers from going to Cuba under the previous 'group people-to-people educational' travel authorization. In addition, the United States will no longer permit visits to Cuba via passenger and recreational vessels, including cruise ships and yachts, and private and corporate aircraft."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/04/politics/us-cuba-travel-restrictions/index.html

That policy will break the Cuban people's  will and democracy and capitalism will be established within a week. 

What fucking nonsense 

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1 minute ago, HuronBouy said:

That policy will break the Cuban people's  will and democracy and capitalism will be established within a week. 

What fucking nonsense 

yep, the hundreds of thousands of American's spending billions in tourism there is no good .........

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It isn't the OFAC regulation that shuts us down.  We do not race under people to people anyway.  What will shut the race down is the Commerce Department requiring export permits for vessels traveling to Cuba even though they are not being exported and will be returning.  The draft of that rule is not out yet.  A draft of the OFAC rule is out and it doesn't touch the Public Performance/Amateur Athletic event category.  

Thank Little Marco for this.  

 

Theoretically, if someone were to participate in an amateur athletic event in Havana, they could travel there...just not by boat. Or they could marry their Cuban girlfriend and go whenever they want....

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Jeff will be by shortly to suggest we invade to prevent them from attacking. Guy will be concerned yet optimistic. Tom will say this doesn't violate his 2A rights; so he's good with it.

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10 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

It isn't the OFAC regulation that shuts us down.  We do not race under people to people anyway.  What will shut the race down is the Commerce Department requiring export permits for vessels traveling to Cuba even though they are not being exported and will be returning.  The draft of that rule is not out yet.  A draft of the OFAC rule is out and it doesn't touch the Public Performance/Amateur Athletic event category.  

Thank Little Marco for this.  

 

Theoretically, if someone were to participate in an amateur athletic event in Havana, they could travel there...just not by boat. Or they could marry their Cuban girlfriend and go whenever they want....

So, does this affect the Cuban vote in 2020?

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2 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

So, does this affect the Cuban vote in 2020?

of course.  It gets the older Cuban vote locked up, and some of the younger, though word is that the younger generations find this stuff stupid.  

Give the embargo a chance to work.  A few more decades and it will happen!  Just like tax cuts creating jobs, just give it time.  Stay the course!

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31 minutes ago, garuda3 said:

I guess trump wasn't allowed to build condo's or casino's there , as the cuban's wanted the money up front ,so he couldn't file bankrupty.

what a great deal maker!

Anybody can build condos or hotels there.  As long as a Cuban owns a majority interest and the Cuban government operates the place.

There are actually billions being invested in Cuba,  It just doesn't seem to show up much in general life.  I'm sorry, everyday Cuban life.  The Generals do real good.

There are a lot of lines to read between here.

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Funny that Canadians, Brits, Germans, etc. all go there, exclaim what a lovely place it is..... And US Citizens could for a few months..... But now it's the same old "CUBA BAD! NO CAN GO THERE! DIE" thing....

I'm pretty sure it's because Trump, and his Elk are no more welcome than Meyer Lansky and Al Capone were.....

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3 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Funny that Canadians, Brits, Germans, etc. all go there, exclaim what a lovely place it is..... And US Citizens could for a few months..... But now it's the same old "CUBA BAD! NO CAN GO THERE! DIE" thing....

I'm pretty sure it's because Trump, and his Elk are no more welcome than Meyer Lansky and Al Capone were.....

I'm sure trump would like to make it illegal to go to Puerto Rico too. I bet Steven Miller has a file folder full of ideas.

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Let's face it... Puerto Rico is juss a little Cuba.... With a little Dominican influence...... And maybe San Juan has lots of Yanqui dollars, but the ress is juss a shit hole!

 Look at Arecibo! Nothing but rubble mang!.... Juss a shit hole!

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I think we should invade them not to prevent them from attacking us, but because if we’re going to nation build around the world, might as well do it close to home.  Save on all those deployment costs.   Besides, we can use it as a jumping off point for when we invade Venezuela.  

But most importantly I might be able to finally get a decent Cuban sandwich without having to go back to Miami.   

End the embargo and the whole island will be speaking English in six months. The Cuban sandwiches there are not good...at least the ones between two pieces of bread. 

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16 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Jeff will be by shortly to suggest we invade to prevent them from attacking. Guy will be concerned yet optimistic. Tom will say this doesn't violate his 2A rights; so he's good with it.

Try to keep up.

The right to travel and the second amendment are very much related, as the idiotic NYC case before the Supreme Court is in the process of showing.

On 1/24/2019 at 5:30 AM, Importunate Tom said:

The Cert Petition
 

Quote

 

The question presented is:

Whether the City’s ban on transporting a licensed, locked, and unloaded handgun to a home or shooting range outside city limits is consistent with the Second Amendment, the Commerce Clause, and the constitutional right to travel.

 

Not presented to the court, but still worth wondering about: why are hoplophobes so darn fearful that they can't tolerate a licensed, locked, and unloaded gun being carried outside city limits?

 

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I think we should invade them not to prevent them from attacking us, but because if we’re going to nation build around the world, might as well do it close to home.  Save on all those deployment costs.   Besides, we can use it as a jumping off point for when we invade Venezuela.  

But most importantly I might be able to finally get a decent Cuban sandwich without having to go back to Miami.   

Mi Apa in Alachua has a good one.  Will save you 350 miles of southing.

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4 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I grew up in Miami and grew up on Cuban Sammi's there back in the 70s as a kid.  I went back to the city for the first time in 2014 since we moved away in '77.  The only thing I could think about was having a good cuban sammi from either South Beach or the Little Havana area near Downtown where my dad worked.  We never made it downtown but I tried a couple on South beach.  Meh.  It wasn't what I remembered.  

Still the best Cuban (sandwich) I've had as an adult was at a little back alley Deli in Key West near Trumbo Point.  IIRC It was on 5th St a couple of Blocks away from the Navy annex.  Not sure if the Navy is even still there at Trumbo Pt.  I cannot remember the name, but it was a little tiny grocery store (about the size of most people's living room) with a small little deli counter in the far back.  I recall 5 Brothers Deli in KW was pretty good too.  But this little grocery store was amazing.  I doubt its even still there.  

Next time in Miami head to Sergio’s. https://www.sergios.com/

reliable. 

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I had tenants recently who came here from Puerto Rico a year or so ago, after the hurricane.  They have just decided to return, the American dream is not all that it is cracked up to be, after all?  Thanks Trump!!

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59 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Will do, thanks!

Now I need to find a recipe to try to roll my own.  Any tips?

Finding the bread is the hard part. You can use Italian bread sliced the long way, with some of the stuffing pulled out, smear alot of butter on both halves (use about a whole stick), then slather with yellow mustard, then a thick layer of sliced boiled ham, then a thin layer of swiss cheese, then a thick layer of grilled, or roasted pork with a little cider vinegar sprinkled on, then a thin layer of swiss cheese, then slather the top inside with more yellow mustard and add some pickle discs. Then if you don't have a press..... Get two cast iron frying pans good and hot and put the sandwich in one, and then put the other pan on top.... Try not to scorch the bread, but you want all that butter to melt and saturate the bread.

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19 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

of course.  It gets the older Cuban vote locked up, and some of the younger, though word is that the younger generations find this stuff stupid.  

Give the embargo a chance to work.  A few more decades and it will happen!  Just like tax cuts creating jobs, just give it time.  Stay the course!

Promises made, promises kept.

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

Promises made, promises kept.

Don't believe all of the propaganda.  Find a way to see the place with your own eyes, stay in an AirBnB and meet people.  There are still a ton of ways to go and I would be happy to share my thoughts with anyone interested. 

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I really don't understand who this serves. There are about 5 old Cubans living in Miami who still want revenge on Cuba for the Castro era. The rest have died or changed their minds. What is Trump thinking? We can isolate Cuba to death? Maybe we should just mail them Big Mac's and see what happens.

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2 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

I really don't understand who this serves. There are about 5 old Cubans living in Miami who still want revenge on Cuba for the Castro era. The rest have died or changed their minds. What is Trump thinking? We can isolate Cuba to death? Maybe we should just mail them Big Mac's and see what happens.

An old guy in Varadero told me "if your country would end the embargo, this entire island would be speaking english in a month." 

This serves Marco Rubio's benefactors.  This serves the FL sugar growers, and sub-standard rum producers. This serves bullshit artists and propagandists, who do not want people to go there and see the place with their own eyes, lest the propagandists lose control of the narrative. 

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Alone in Latin America, from the perspective of the gringo empire to the north, . . 

Cuba commits the unpardonable sins of making food, education and health care 

available to all 

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15 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Alone in Latin America, from the perspective of the gringo empire to the north, . . 

Cuba commits the unpardonable sins of making food, education and health care 

available to all 

Not true. Most of Caricom does that.

 

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6 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I grew up in Miami and grew up on Cuban Sammi's there back in the 70s as a kid.  I went back to the city for the first time in 2014 since we moved away in '77.  The only thing I could think about was having a good cuban sammi from either South Beach or the Little Havana area near Downtown where my dad worked.  We never made it downtown but I tried a couple on South beach.  Meh.  It wasn't what I remembered.  

Still the best Cuban (sandwich) I've had as an adult was at a little back alley Deli in Key West near Trumbo Point.  IIRC It was on 5th St a couple of Blocks away from the Navy annex.  Not sure if the Navy is even still there at Trumbo Pt.  I cannot remember the name, but it was a little tiny grocery store (about the size of most people's living room) with a small little deli counter in the far back.  I recall 5 Brothers Deli in KW was pretty good too.  But this little grocery store was amazing.  I doubt its even still there.  

Sadly none of those places have the best Cuban sandwiches in Florida.  You have to head north for that.

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3 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Sadly none of those places have the best Cuban sandwiches in Florida.  You have to head north for that.

Specifics man! We need specifics!

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13 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Not true. Most of Caricom does that. (provides education food health care) 

Are you kidding ? Do you know that Haiti is a Caricom member " 

And other Caricom nations are also desperately poor. 

Go to Cuba and see for yourself . . 

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43 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Are you kidding ? Do you know that Haiti is a Caricom member " 

And other Caricom nations are also desperately poor. 

Go to Cuba and see for yourself . . 

I'd love to go to Cuba. Was planning on going there 2 years or so ago, but something came up, and I had to postpone my trip.

 Haiti is a sad example of what bad leadership, and rapacious corporate greed can do to a land, and it's people.

 Look at the DR on the same island (Hispanola)... You can literally see the demarcation line as you fly over.... DR is no paradise, by any means, but it is compared to Haiti.

 I've lived in a few Caricom countries, and they may be financially poor, but the culture, and community is vibrant.

 

Ever lived there AJ, or just commenting from the arm chair?

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54 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Specifics man! We need specifics!

Tampa.  Officially named home of the Best Cuban sandwich and bread.  Even Marc Rubio agrees.  I’m not rabid about them.  La Teritista is the place for all things Cuban but I’m sure there are better places.

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That's a long way to go for a sangwidge......

Phillipines....

 Did you mean Teresita?

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6 minutes ago, hermetic said:

rent a driver, get out of havana, head southeast toward gitmo.  look at the living conditions there then tell us it's a whole lot better than haiti

Have toured both islands extensively.  Cuba is a shithole, but It's a whole lot better than Haiti.  

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1 hour ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

sort of. Cuba's trotted out as the dangers of the Commies aka the poor running the country. Haiti's trotted out as the danger of letting black people - especially slaves that had the temerity to take their own freedom - rule a country.

They got screwed over for that temerity. 

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/11/10/haiti-from-slavery-to-debt/

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Best thing about holidaying in Cuba in 2005 was the good rum, great cigars and there was no Americans. Plus crystal clear water and the biggest free swimming Morays I have ever seen in the Bay of Pigs. 

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9 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Alone in Latin America, from the perspective of the gringo empire to the north, . . 

Cuba commits the unpardonable sins of making food, education and health care 

available to all 

Have you been there?  I did a delivery there BEFORE the cruise ships started coming. The vessel was not US flagged.  We walked the streets of Havana one rainy day and you could see the sewers overflowing.  That is not because of an embargo, that is just not caring.  Walking some of the neighborhoods, the multi-family buildings used by Cubans were in terrible shape.  But the hotel across the street was perfect.  

People are nice and friendly- but live in squalor and fear.  Did you know the government CONFISCATES 95% of the tobacco crop for their use?

I finished the delivery in Cayo Largo del Sur, the resort.  That was five days before the first ship arrived.  Interestingly, their shipment of sugar and some other food stuff that the resort needed did not come.  Why? Our best assessment from speaking to the locals was it got diverted to Havana so there was plenty of food for the gringos to see.

Not sure if restoring the embargo is the right move. But then again, as we tried to thaw things, they attacked our embassy staff!

 

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5 minutes ago, justsomeguy! said:

They smoke that much?

No the government controls all the cigars sold in the “normal” markets.   Have a buddy who has family there.  Could get a shitload of cigars for $75.

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5 minutes ago, Snore said:

No the government controls all the cigars sold in the “normal” markets.   Have a buddy who has family there.  Could get a shitload of cigars for $75.

Well the gov't controls all the tobacco sold in the US' "normal" markets too.

Just a bit differently, I'll admit.

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6 hours ago, Snore said:

Have you been there?  I did a delivery there BEFORE the cruise ships started coming. The vessel was not US flagged.  We walked the streets of Havana one rainy day and you could see the sewers overflowing.  That is not because of an embargo, that is just not caring.  Walking some of the neighborhoods, the multi-family buildings used by Cubans were in terrible shape.  But the hotel across the street was perfect.  

People are nice and friendly- but live in squalor and fear.  Did you know the government CONFISCATES 95% of the tobacco crop for their use?

I finished the delivery in Cayo Largo del Sur, the resort.  That was five days before the first ship arrived.  Interestingly, their shipment of sugar and some other food stuff that the resort needed did not come.  Why? Our best assessment from speaking to the locals was it got diverted to Havana so there was plenty of food for the gringos to see.

Not sure if restoring the embargo is the right move. But then again, as we tried to thaw things, they attacked our embassy staff!

 

I was there before the cruise ships and I’ll be there after, including but not limited to next week. Perhaps you should see the place after a couple of years of increased travelers and income. How many bubbling manhole covers did you see?  There are always a couple, but no trenches of raw sewage like you see running downhill in Haiti.

The hotels look nice because they are owned by European hospitality companies, usually a 49% share. 

The embassy “attack” is horseshit. The same thing happened in China. It wasn’t the Cubans. Pure propaganda.

You should go again. Stay in an AirBnB so you can meet some people trying to get by in the new economy, and support them. Do a search on AirBnB to see how many places are available, and you’ll get a better idea of who gets hurt when we crack down on the regime. You can take a private taxi out of the airport, eat and drink at private paladars, and stay at a private AirBnB. The government gets a share of everything through taxes...just like here. We should be doing everything possible to support the private economy, not stifle it. 

Edit. I get cigars by the shoebox-full every time I go. Not from the govt. It just takes a bit of time talking to, and more importantly, Listening to people and learning from them. 

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, this is just a fucking assinine policy.  It was one of the things Obama got right, to lift the embargo.  Because it worked so well for 50 years previously.  What the hell are we even afraid of?  Its not like there are Russian ICBMs there anymore.....

It’s a new world but we are still responding to the old. 

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6 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, I've heard there is a intense rivalry between Miami and Tampa for who has the best cubans.  Heard an interesting piece on NPR recently about it. Supposedly very different styles.  I've not had the Tampa one yet, but interested in trying it someday.

They’re both good.  Like I said it’s not my favorite sandwich.  Tampa definitely has the better bread.

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17 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Have toured both islands extensively. Cuba is a shithole

spent 6 weeks on a job at gitmo in 2005, then 3 weeks helping in a gratis survey of elec / telephone in the sw section.  wires nailed to trees or running on the ground, diy open splices to houses.  open sewage - zero septic - just outhouses without holes.  doesn't get much worse

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2 minutes ago, hermetic said:

spent 6 weeks on a job at gitmo in 2005, then 3 weeks helping in a gratis survey of elec / telephone in the sw section.  wires nailed to trees or running on the ground, diy open splices to houses.  open sewage - zero septic - just outhouses without holes.  doesn't get much worse

Sounds like most of India, China and about 25% of LA and SF.

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1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

Sounds like most of India, China and about 25% of LA and SF.

Average cost of a house in SF is $1.62M and that doesn’t even include septic. It’s just terrible in SF. Terrible I say.

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, I've heard there is a intense rivalry between Miami and Tampa for who has the best cubans.  Heard an interesting piece on NPR recently about it. Supposedly very different styles.  I've not had the Tampa one yet, but interested in trying it someday.

Tampa has old Cuba, Miami are the Nuevo Cubanos.  The restaurant Sol recommended advertises itself as a 'fusion' restaurant. 

Jose Marti did his plotting in Ybor City.  Still a fun place but like Fells Point in Baltimore, the edges have been smoothed down a little too far.

The gulf coast was more cuban than the east coast for much of it's history.

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

Average cost of a house in SF is $1.62M and that doesn’t even include septic. It’s just terrible in SF. Terrible I say.

How much is that in real money?

It used to be fun watching the West Coast defense contractors move into Maryland and try to find something expensive enough to shelter their 'gains'.

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17 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Have toured both islands extensively.  Cuba is a shithole, but It's a whole lot better than Haiti.  

I've been to Haiti - and Cite du Soleil is the only place I've ever seen that had abject poverty on a level with Djibouti and Somalia.  I gotta think that aside from the lack of freedom of movement, Cuba's in a similar situation to PR on an individual economic level.  I won't ever be permitted to travel to Cuba before I retire, but, man I'd love to see it before development dilutes its culture. 

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20 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

How much is that in real money?

It used to be fun watching the West Coast defense contractors move into Maryland and try to find something expensive enough to shelter their 'gains'.

It used to be fun hiring those the West Coast defense contractors after that industry crashed and burned. Well for awhile at least. They were really big on policies and procedures but couldn't understand market competition to save their lives. That was all new to them. Seriously, given the choice between a pocket protector wearing patriot and an ex-Soviet engineer, holy fuck it wasn't close.

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14 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Sorta what you expect when you have crippling sanctions on you for 50+ years.  All the embargo has done is hurt the common person there.  It certainly hasn't hurt the gov't as it was supposed to.  So what's our answer?????  Fuck the people some more.  Maybe in another 50 year, it might work finally.

agree the embargo is bad for the people, and mostly just bad.  but it's also hard to see tourism on the north coast helping the people in the south.  creating some kind of industry down there would cost tons of money and time (no infrastructure).  maybe move gitmo to pr, turn the base over to the cubans,  and let them build out from there.

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3 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

I was there before the cruise ships and I’ll be there after, including but not limited to next week. Perhaps you should see the place after a couple of years of increased travelers and income. How many bubbling manhole covers did you see?  There are always a couple, but no trenches of raw sewage like you see running downhill in Haiti.

The hotels look nice because they are owned by European hospitality companies, usually a 49% share. 

The embassy “attack” is horseshit. The same thing happened in China. It wasn’t the Cubans. Pure propaganda.

You should go again. Stay in an AirBnB so you can meet some people trying to get by in the new economy, and support them. Do a search on AirBnB to see how many places are available, and you’ll get a better idea of who gets hurt when we crack down on the regime. You can take a private taxi out of the airport, eat and drink at private paladars, and stay at a private AirBnB. The government gets a share of everything through taxes...just like here. We should be doing everything possible to support the private economy, not stifle it. 

Edit. I get cigars by the shoebox-full every time I go. Not from the govt. It just takes a bit of time talking to, and more importantly, Listening to people and learning from them. 

 

I will get back loved the people.  One of my favorite memories was walking a back street in Havana and looking under the hook of a 50’s car and seeing a Mitsubishi 4-banger.  With help of a buddy to fill in the missing Spanish for me, had a whole conversation about how he modified the car to get it to fit...  As a delivery guy—— ya need a boat moved?.. :>)

3 hours ago, Fakenews said:

Lie

You know after I posted that I did more research.  By the time I read enough to realize it was bullshit, I could not edit it.   So, I will put myself in time out for the error.

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I've been to Haiti - and Cite du Soleil is the only place I've ever seen that had abject poverty on a level with Djibouti and Somalia.  I gotta think that aside from the lack of freedom of movement, Cuba's in a similar situation to PR on an individual economic level.  I won't ever be permitted to travel to Cuba before I retire, but, man I'd love to see it before development dilutes its culture. 

I have a girlfriend in Havana now.  Her government lets her travel where she wants, it is the US government that keeps her from visiting here.  She doesn't want to leave Cuba, she is happy there, she just wants to visit and go home. She knows all about what the US has to offer; her mom lives here (but returns to Cuba for her health care). Hiring a car for a day is fun, and will get you out to see quite a bit.  A trip to Varadero is eye opening, but the destination is sterile and an example of what Eurotourism dollars can do. the only Cubans there are workers who get are transported in and out by bus. 

There is no doubt that the place looks as if it has been under the thumb of an economic embargo for 60 years.  It's hard to know whether their economic system could really work because we have not seen that.  We do know that the embargo doesn't work, because we have seen that. Re their economic system, it is remarkably similar to ours.  The economy there is run for the benefit of a very small group of people, with enough wealth spread around to keep the peace.  In the US, that group of people is a bit bigger, with enough wealth spread around to keep the peace.  We do have much better propaganda networks.  

 

Snore, no more moving boats there, at least US flagged.  That's the regulation that puts races (from the US) to Havana out of business. And the cars....  Yes, if you listen to any of the antique cars rumbling around, you will hear diesels purring under the hood.  Lots of Japanese, Russian and some Chinese engines under those hoods.  Nothing is wasted or thrown out there.  They re-use everything.  They do need some stuff, and I always travel with two big bags, one of which is usually stuffed with special order goodies.  A tie rod end for Rey the taxi driver's 49 Chevy fleetside, other little nicknacks.  Etc. And most folks are always upbeat and happy with what little they have.  Here we lack for little and focus only on that.  

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Sol - w/r/t your GF in Cuba - is every Cuban citizen afforded freedom of movement?   I was under the impression that that's not the case, and if I'm mistaken, I'd like to be squared away. 

 

I am certain there are some that cannot, but I do not know for sure.  She definitely has a Cuban Passport and travels to anyplace where she doesn't need a visa (namely Panama) regularly.  Lots of Cubans go back and forth to Panama to shop.  She lived in Venezuela for a while, until their crooks started taking everything for themselves....  

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Here is a pretty good discussion of the travel topic, from a foundation whose mission is to introduce young Cuban Americans to the island. 

http://cubaone.org/follow-along/

The only thing that has been shut down is people-to-people travel and traveling by water or private plane. As that link notes, support for the Cuban people is an easy category to meet.  Stay in an AirBnB.  You will likely end up in a new apartment built adjacent to (or above) someone's home. They are budding capitalists.  My regular apartment is on the water looking out at the ocean, brand new place, 1/1 for $25 a night. The fridge is stocked with beer, soda and water. Each costs a bit of money, as the innkeeper has to make his cut. I am part of the family there.  They help me arrange rides, invite me in for morning coffee, and go out to dinner at the paladar when I am alone. The Paladar is a private restaurant. You must eat at a private place if you want good, fresh food. They have the profit motive. So what would be a normal practice in a Capitalist society meets our travel requirements of "Support for the Cuban People," as long as your schedule is chockablock full of such activities. 

I will help with information, advice and links to relevant regulations for anyone who wants to go.  From our birth in the US, we are fed so much bullshit to demonize the place.  Go on AirBnB and do a search using the map function.  Pan around the island.  These folks are the aspiring capitalists that we want to help. Don't want to go to Havana, go to Santiago, down near Gitmo.  AA has direct flights there now, from MIA.  That's where the best rum is bottled, and supposedly it is where the best bartender in all of Cuba plies his trade (at the bar in the museum of rum). 

My involvement with the race was great because I could combine two passions, encouraging people to venture offshore in competition, AND go to see Cuba with their own eyes.  It also forced me to do the latter myself.  Now that I have, I am much more enthused about the latter one, and will be doing so much more often. Decent food, fantastic rum, good cigars, and don't get me started about the women.  See it yourself, and all of a sudden, the propagandists have no power.  

 

The Santiago Rum: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/30/dining/drinks/daiquiri-history-cuba-rum.html

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18 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

The sad part is this works both ways.  Had we not had the embargo, the cuban people would likely have seen what a free, western society looked like in person and would have been far less likely to tolerate a commie dictator like Castro for long.  The best propaganda we had for regime change was 90 miles north.  Instead, we played right into Castro's hands and gave him the illusion to use that the big bad capitalist gringos were evil.  Its so sad its comical.

The other part that I've never understood is why the Cuban faction in FL is still so dead set on keeping the embargo in place.  They have to know they are doing nothing but hurting their relatives and friends left behind and that its having little effect on the gov't.  In fact if anything, its made the regime more entrenched.  I just don't get why they are so stubborn on this and what they hope to gain.  I get that the original old fucks are still butthurt that they lost all their wealth and property when castro came to power.  But geeze, the dude is dead and buried.  Time to move on, that shit ain't ever coming back.  So if anyone can explain what the real deal behind this was and why it continues to be an issue, I'd be happy to be edumacated.  I also don't get how the old cubanos still weld so much political power.  Surely they aren't still the deciding vote in FL anymore.  

Money.  The FL sugar barons certainly don't want Cuban sugar in the market, and they want their family land back, or to get paid for it. Same with the Bacardis.  And many of the old guard are cranky about Bay of Pigs.  Having a Senator in the bag for them, who can trade his vote on the tax relief for billionaires act in return for tighter Cuba policy makes anything possible. 

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Makes sense.  It's always about the money.  

I am a firm believe in the notion that you can examine any of our problems, identify who profits from it, and discover the heart of the problem. It's always about money, at least for the people at the heart of it, if not for the rubes who follow them. 

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Here is a pretty good discussion of the travel topic, from a foundation whose mission is to introduce young Cuban Americans to the island. 

http://cubaone.org/follow-along/

The only thing that has been shut down is people-to-people travel and traveling by water or private plane. As that link notes, support for the Cuban people is an easy category to meet.  Stay in an AirBnB.  You will likely end up in a new apartment built adjacent to (or above) someone's home. They are budding capitalists.  My regular apartment is on the water looking out at the ocean, brand new place, 1/1 for $25 a night. The fridge is stocked with beer, soda and water. Each costs a bit of money, as the innkeeper has to make his cut. I am part of the family there.  They help me arrange rides, invite me in for morning coffee, and go out to dinner at the paladar when I am alone. The Paladar is a private restaurant. You must eat at a private place if you want good, fresh food. They have the profit motive. So what would be a normal practice in a Capitalist society meets our travel requirements of "Support for the Cuban People," as long as your schedule is chockablock full of such activities. 

I will help with information, advice and links to relevant regulations for anyone who wants to go.  From our birth in the US, we are fed so much bullshit to demonize the place.  Go on AirBnB and do a search using the map function.  Pan around the island.  These folks are the aspiring capitalists that we want to help. Don't want to go to Havana, go to Santiago, down near Gitmo.  AA has direct flights there now, from MIA.  That's where the best rum is bottled, and supposedly it is where the best bartender in all of Cuba plies his trade (at the bar in the museum of rum). 

My involvement with the race was great because I could combine two passions, encouraging people to venture offshore in competition, AND go to see Cuba with their own eyes.  It also forced me to do the latter myself.  Now that I have, I am much more enthused about the latter one, and will be doing so much more often. Decent food, fantastic rum, good cigars, and don't get me started about the women.  See it yourself, and all of a sudden, the propagandists have no power.  

 

The Santiago Rum: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/30/dining/drinks/daiquiri-history-cuba-rum.html

Ahhh, the romance!  There is a lot of propaganda from both sides.

I she one of the ones who can earn and keep dollars?  Cuba still has two currencies.  One for the rich and one for the poor.  I would guess the AirBnB isn't in one of the soviet era apartment buildings.

The reason that the old cars are there is that for along time it was illegal to sell them.  You either let it rust away or kept it running.  Most of them are like a 50 yard boat.

 

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Money.  The FL sugar barons certainly don't want Cuban sugar in the market, and they want their family land back, or to get paid for it. Same with the Bacardis.  And many of the old guard are cranky about Bay of Pigs.  Having a Senator in the bag for them, who can trade his vote on the tax relief for billionaires act in return for tighter Cuba policy makes anything possible. 

You sure the corn lobby doesn't have more influence than FL sugar barons?

There is no place in the Caribbean doing well on sugar and all of them had sugar plantations.  I don't know of many that don't make rum too.

Cuba is certainly not unique in this regard.

 

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

What's wrong with appreciating the romance of a place or situation?   As long as that appreciation doesn't cause one to disregard pertinent facts?  It's a better perspective than pessimism, wouldn't ya say?

Absolutely nothing.  A romantic view of the world is helpful.  Particularly when reality is present.

I partly bought the romance while I was in HS and fleetingly thought about joining.  Reading too much Hemingway I guess.

Fortunately I didn't because the Americans who fought in the revolution didn't come to a good end.

Here's one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Alexander_Morgan

A couple of excerpts

Opposed to the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista, Morgan abandoned his wife and children and went to Cuba in 1957, joining a guerrilla force of the Second National Front of the Escambray (Segundo Frente Nacional de Escambray or SFNE)[2] that operated against Batista's soldiers in the Escambray Mountains in central Cuba.[3]

After distinguishing himself in a series of battles, he was promoted to the rank of comandante, leading his own column. In 1958, he wrote a statement that appeared in the New York Times to explain his participation in Castro's revolution, "Why I Am Here". It said in part:[4]

I am here because I believe that the most important thing for free men to do is to protect the freedom of others. I am here so that my son, when he is grown, will not have to fight or die in a land not his own, because one man or group of men try to take his liberty from him. I am here because I believe that free men should take up arms and stand together and fight and destroy the groups and forces that want to take the rights of people away.

__________________

On October 16, 1960, Castro ordered Morgan's arrest due to counterrevolutionary activities. Three days later, Morgan was arrested while attending a meeting for the National Institute for Agrarian Reform, to which he had been summoned. Morgan was formally charged with plotting to join and lead the counter-revolutionaries who were active in the Escambray Mountains.[11] On March 11, 1961, shortly after a military trial at La Cabana prison, Morgan, then 32 years old, was shot by firing squad with Fidel and Raul Castro in attendance.[2][11] One month later, 1,500 CIA trained counterrevolutionaries would unsuccessfully invade Cuba at the Bay of Pigs resulting in Castro officially declaring the Revolution a Socialist endeavor.[10]

 

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16 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Ahhh, the romance!  There is a lot of propaganda from both sides.

I she one of the ones who can earn and keep dollars?  Cuba still has two currencies.  One for the rich and one for the poor.  I would guess the AirBnB isn't in one of the soviet era apartment buildings.

The reason that the old cars are there is that for along time it was illegal to sell them.  You either let it rust away or kept it running.  Most of them are like a 50 yard boat.

 

Go find out for yourself and you won't have to guess. 

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

The sad part is this works both ways.  Had we not had the embargo, the cuban people would likely have seen what a free, western society looked like in person and would have been far less likely to tolerate a commie dictator like Castro for long.  The best propaganda we had for regime change was 90 miles north.  Instead, we played right into Castro's hands and gave him the illusion to use that the big bad capitalist gringos were evil.  Its so sad its comical.

The other part that I've never understood is why the Cuban faction in FL is still so dead set on keeping the embargo in place.  They have to know they are doing nothing but hurting their relatives and friends left behind and that its having little effect on the gov't.  In fact if anything, its made the regime more entrenched.  I just don't get why they are so stubborn on this and what they hope to gain.  I get that the original old fucks are still butthurt that they lost all their wealth and property when castro came to power.  But geeze, the dude is dead and buried.  Time to move on, that shit ain't ever coming back.  So if anyone can explain what the real deal behind this was and why it continues to be an issue, I'd be happy to be edumacated.  I also don't get how the old cubanos still weld so much political power.  Surely they aren't still the deciding vote in FL anymore.  

Under Batista they did see what a "Free Western society looked like".... And it was that very thing that spurred the revolution. The mafia, and the corporate barons took everything they wanted, beat the common folk down, and pillaged the country.

Not surprising that the replacement did much the same under a different set of names.

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6 hours ago, hermetic said:

doesn't get much worse

Maybe in 2005, but as of the past few years it is significantly ahead of Haiti and a lot of other latin american cities.  I never went to Cuba until 2014, but If you think raw sewage is rare or even unusual in a place like Tegicigalpa, Puerto Limon, or Guate City, you ain't been traveling the third world much.  Every central american city and much of the caricom have fucked infrastucture and corrupt governments, along with plenty of racism, homophobia, sexism, and lots of belief in sky fairies.

On one hand, Cuba (compared to central america) has relatively good medical care, cleanliness, mosquito control, crime rates and education.  On the other hand, the government is seriously oppressive and we have no idea just how much, because people are terrified to talk to anyone - still.

 

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5 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I've been to Haiti - and Cite du Soleil is the only place I've ever seen that had abject poverty on a level with Djibouti and Somalia.  I gotta think that aside from the lack of freedom of movement, Cuba's in a similar situation to PR on an individual economic level.  I won't ever be permitted to travel to Cuba before I retire, but, man I'd love to see it before development dilutes its culture. 

There's poor, and then there's africa.

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15 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Maybe in 2005, but as of the past few years it is significantly ahead of Haiti and a lot of other latin american cities.  I never went to Cuba until 2014, but If you think raw sewage is rare or even unusual in a place like Tegicigalpa, Puerto Limon, or Guate City you ain't been traveling the third world much.

In Djibouti and Somalia - people are crapping on the ground right next to their goats. 

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5 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

In Djibouti and Somalia - people are crapping on the ground right next to their goats. 

Maybe they ate what I did the one time I had to pull over and drop a deuce in an Ace Hardware store parking lot

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4 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

In Djibouti and Somalia - people are crapping on the ground right next to their goats. 

 

Same same in many of the towns on the road between El Paso and the Darién.  Shittin' on the ground doesn't make you uniquely poor on this planet.

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3 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Go find out for yourself and you won't have to guess. 

Are you saying that there aren't two levels of currency? And the good cubans can have dollars but the proletariat can't?

Are you saying that anyone could have sold their cars and kept the money?

When there, do you notice that the two things people keep up of their own free will are the cemeteries and churches?

Are you saying that the Americans who supported the revolution against the dictator Batista weren't killed after the dictator Castro took over?

Do you know that the US recognized Cuba immediately after the revolution and did not turn against them until they invited the Russians in?

Are you aware that it was the sworn policy of Castro to spread revolution throughout Central and South America?  How is that working out in all the workers paradises.

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3 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Are you saying that there aren't two levels of currency? And the good cubans can have dollars but the proletariat can't?

Are you saying that anyone could have sold their cars and kept the money?

When there, do you notice that the two things people keep up of their own free will are the cemeteries and churches?

Are you saying that the Americans who supported the revolution against the dictator Batista weren't killed after the dictator Castro took over?

Do you know that the US recognized Cuba immediately after the revolution and did not turn against them until they invited the Russians in?

Are you aware that it was the sworn policy of Castro to spread revolution throughout Central and South America?  How is that working out in all the workers paradises.

In all sincerity - I don't think he's asserting anything other than the way things were ain't the way they are now, and ya might enjoy seeing that for yourself. 

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

In all sincerity - I don't think he's asserting anything other than the way things were ain't the way they are now, and ya might enjoy seeing that for yourself. 

Pretty much. I don’t engage with the minister of information and his propaganda usually. People who know everything are incapable of learning. Those with perfect faith hath no need for perfect vision. 

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

In all sincerity - I don't think he's asserting anything other than the way things were ain't the way they are now, and ya might enjoy seeing that for yourself. 

I have seen it for myself but not for an extended time.  I  find people can make a life for themselves in a lot of different countries and political systems.

The dual currency system still exists.  It keeps the riffraff away from the visitors.  People do keep up the cemeteries and churches.  Once off the main drag it gets trashy fast in spite of billions in Canadian and European investment.

The policy of supporting revolutions is alive today.  See Venezuela.

Fidel may be dead and his brother off the stage but the revolution lives.

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

I have seen it for myself but not for an extended time.  I  find people can make a life for themselves in a lot of different countries and political systems.

The dual currency system still exists.  It keeps the riffraff away from the visitors.  People do keep up the cemeteries and churches.  Once off the main drag it gets trashy fast in spite of billions in Canadian and European investment.

The policy of supporting revolutions is alive today.  See Venezuela.

Fidel may be dead and his brother off the stage but the revolution lives.

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!!!

image.png.8c26894bb8256d7dc955c6616ff8afc7.png

 

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