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bob lazar and the ufo story


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anyone catch this? he certainly doesn’t speak out much so it was interesting to hear. my high level of skepticism remains but it does make me ask wtf when taken in context with the navy pilots reporting from both coasts

thoughts?

 

 

 

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Pretty compelling stuff and a fascinating guy, though I only listened on the podcast while cutting down a tree, I didn't get to watch facial expressions.  Seems credible despite Rogan's skepticism, no?  I want a gravity machine.

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So I reject the notion of extra terrestrials secretly visiting us and performing any of the mysterious actions (from kidnapping farmers in Nebraska for "study" to the Easter Island Moai)  attributed those visitors. That is after some consideration and really the logic presented by Dr Carl Sagan in his 1995 seminal work (in my view) "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark". In that work he has a chapter in which he examines the notion of alien visitations so logical and completely that I arrived at that view. That does not mean there are "things" or phenomena that cannot be easily explained and/or we don't currently understand but those things (IMHO) are unlikely to be the product of extra terrestrial visits....not that the existence of life outside our planet is impossible, rather the notion of these secret visitations and activities by some beings so "advanced" as to be capable of interstellar travel .........make no logical sense.

My own experience was during the latter portion of my 4 year enlistment in the US Navy while working as a radar technician aboard a US destroyer. While in the Tonkin Gulf in the early 70's tracking a unidentified object at the edge of our effective range with a missile guidance pulsed doppler radar system I worked on (AN-SPG 51C/D) we experienced a head scratcher.

Now a pulsed doppler radar was extremely efficient at distinguishing and separating various natural phenomena such as sea clutter or clouds/squalls from actual targets, so what we experienced that day was difficult to attribute to those known phenomena. One of the characteristics of this radar is an audio representation of the doppler shift the radar uses to track and gain targeting information from an airborne object. It was so sensitive that while sitting at the console tracking you can actually hear the doppler shift characteristics of various aircraft and with some high degree of accuracy ascertain the type of aircraft related to its propulsion ie. jet, prop, rotary wing etc. and whether its turning, outbound, inbound, etc. So we acquire a SOLID track on a target given to us in the radar room by the air search radar console in CIC.

In order to have this make sense, I really have to briefly and simply explain the concept of Range Rate (RR) in this setting to fully understand the story. Simplified, range rate (RR) is a number calculated by the tracking system's computer that gives a number to describe the RATE at which a targets range changes RELATIVE to the ships position. The higher the number the more rapid the CHANGE in range has became. The values generated in our system to describe that real time target range characteristic went from 0 to 999 in a linear fashion. 999 was a theoretical value and I never saw an airborne object exceed a couple hundred. So, its sort of similar to speed but its not speed. For instance a relatively slow moving target that suddenly performs a very tight turn toward or away from the ship would for the duration of that turn possibly have a very high range rate since the change in its position relative to the ship is CHANGING at a very quick rate. Its very much a time weighted change in position measurement.

So I'm standing at the console behind the operator watching and the target has a RR of very close to zero. So low in fact that the target is likely hovering and the RR is most likely attributable completely to our ships movement alone. Suddenly the target's RR jumps and I mean jumps to a pretty high value, stays there and the range is suddenly decreasing meaning the target has turned inbound and is moving pretty quickly at us. CIC is concerned and since we're getting no friendly response on the IFF squawk, CIC says to light the target up with the illumination. Our missile radar was really two "radars" in one. The first a pulsed doppler tracking radar to keep the dish continuously pointed at the target and the second (which you can turn on or off) is a continuous wave CW (constant) missile guidance radar which sends course information to the missile in flight intending to have it intercept the target at some future predicted (based on the targeting information of range, speed, RR etc) position. More sophisticated than a simple beam rider targeting system but less sophisticated than an active homing system where you shoot, acquire and forget the missile because it "acquires the target and computes its own internal interception prediction and flies itself there. This one is classified as "semi-active homing" and you have to track the target all the way to intercept, the missile is only listening, not tracking by itself.

So, we light up the target with the CW guidance and usually when the target is able to see the missile illumination radar - which means "we're pretty damn close - moments away in fact - to shooting at your ass" - they ether squawk back or take evasive action. So we light it up and suddenly....I mean immediately....the RR goes to 999, the audio makes a sound I never heard, the dish slews upward trying to maintain the radar tracking lock and slams into the upper elevation stops and the target is gone. I mean....gone....and I mean immediately gone. We all looked at each other with sort of a WTF did I just see look and reported tracking loss to CIC who confirmed the target no longer painted on the air search either. That means it shot straight up at an unheard of pace and simply left. We gawked at each other for a few seconds........muttered a few WTFs and went about our business.

Can I explain that........no........do I think it was extra terrestrials...........no.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Point Break said:

 

Can I explain that........no........do I think it was extra terrestrials...........no.

 

 

 

When you were sitting around having beers later, what did you and your pals decide it was?

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4 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

When you were sitting around having beers later, what did you and your pals decide it was?

Honestly we could not come up with an explanation. Some of us pinned it on "flying saucers" which was the buzz word then. I sorta leaned that way since being human (allegedly....several people in my past life might dispute that) causes us to seek an explanation....even to things we do not understand, hence the myths we develop such as the Hindu myth that world must be sitting on the back of a turtle supported by 4 elephants......but after reading Saga's treatment of those UFO assertions I came to the conclusion that not understanding it does not mean its a UFO. Other folks mileage may vary. :lol:

440px-PSM_V10_D562_The_hindoo_earth.jpg

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15 minutes ago, weightless said:

Wait, it doesn't? Until it is understood a flying object is a UFO isn't it? Do people still make a distinction between UFOs and ETs?

Yes....you are correct. I don't think that distinction is critical to the point and in general laypersons discussion "UFO" has come to be synonymous with extra terrestrial activity. But I stand corrected in that it was technically a UFO (unless it was a weather or other natural phenomena - then its not an "object" is it?) that was - by some - attributed to possibly being a ET object. I'm not sure the nomenclature question confuses the point though that it being unexplained does not mean it should be attributed to ET activity.

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32 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

weathere balloonne?

Not likely in the middle of the Tonkin Gulf during the......"conflict".......I don't think anyway. But even then the RR was off the chart indicating - to us anyway - a rate of climb far in excess of a weather balloon.

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Government has abandoned the term UFO in favor of - I forget. What did Lazar say again? Advanced Aeronautical Phenomena" or something?

Willing to stipulate.........I have not followed the subject in recent years to be aware of any current changes to nomenclature. :rolleyes:

So UFO becomes an AAP?

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21 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Government has abandoned the term UFO in favor of - I forget. What did Lazar say again? Advanced Aeronautical Phenomena" or something?

 

aav - anomalous aerial vehicle

 

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38 minutes ago, Point Break said:

I'm not sure the nomenclature question confuses the point though that it being unexplained does not mean it should be attributed to ET activity.

Fair enough. My working theory is: ET == JFM ~ "the problem is hard, I need an answer and I'm lazy therefore it's the work of an ineffable superthing. Next problem!" 

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4 minutes ago, weightless said:

Fair enough. My working theory is: ET == JFM ~ "the problem is hard, I need an answer and I'm lazy therefore it's the work of an ineffable superthing. Next problem!" 

Kinda where I landed as well except not all of it is attributable to lazy (although certainly some amount probably is). Some of it just isn't going to have an answer that is either either easily (where lazy comes in) or readily understood. But I think we're of the same or similar mind on the core question.

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UFO Disclosure Press Conference at the National Press Club

Some of the speakers include: 

*  Belgian Airforce Major General, Ret. - Wilfried De Brouwer; Engineer, Astronomer and Astrophysicist
 
* Dr. Claude Poher; Captain, Air France, Ret. 
 
* Jean-Charles Duboc; French Astrophysicist
 
* General, Iranian Airforce, Ret. - Parviz Jafari
 
* Captain, Army of Chile - Rodrigo Bravo Garrido; Commander, Peruvian Airforce, Ret. 
 
* Oscar Santa Maria Huertas; Founding Member of the Peruvian Airforce Office of Investigation of Anomalous Ariel Phenomena (OIFAA)
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

 Some of it just isn't going to have an answer that is ... readily understood. 

True that.

I suppose I was trying to hint at a choice that people make to dismiss a problem that is expensive, impractical or impossible to understand by invoking mystical actors.  But, I was too lazy to work out that thought.

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4 hours ago, Point Break said:

So I reject the notion of extra terrestrials secretly visiting us and performing any of the mysterious actions (from kidnapping farmers in Nebraska for "study" to the Easter Island Moai)  attributed those visitors. That is after some consideration and really the logic presented by Dr Carl Sagan in his 1995 seminal work (in my view) "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark". In that work he has a chapter in which he examines the notion of alien visitations so logical and completely that I arrived at that view. That does not mean there are "things" or phenomena that cannot be easily explained and/or we don't currently understand but those things (IMHO) are unlikely to be the product of extra terrestrial visits....not that the existence of life outside our planet is impossible, rather the notion of these secret visitations and activities by some beings so "advanced" as to be capable of interstellar travel .........make no logical sense.

My own experience was during the latter portion of my 4 year enlistment in the US Navy while working as a radar technician aboard a US destroyer. While in the Tonkin Gulf in the early 70's tracking a unidentified object at the edge of our effective range with a missile guidance pulsed doppler radar system I worked on (AN-SPG 51C/D) we experienced a head scratcher.

Now a pulsed doppler radar was extremely efficient at distinguishing and separating various natural phenomena such as sea clutter or clouds/squalls from actual targets, so what we experienced that day was difficult to attribute to those known phenomena. One of the characteristics of this radar is an audio representation of the doppler shift the radar uses to track and gain targeting information from an airborne object. It was so sensitive that while sitting at the console tracking you can actually hear the doppler shift characteristics of various aircraft and with some high degree of accuracy ascertain the type of aircraft related to its propulsion ie. jet, prop, rotary wing etc. and whether its turning, outbound, inbound, etc. So we acquire a SOLID track on a target given to us in the radar room by the air search radar console in CIC.

In order to have this make sense, I really have to briefly and simply explain the concept of Range Rate (RR) in this setting to fully understand the story. Simplified, range rate (RR) is a number calculated by the tracking system's computer that gives a number to describe the RATE at which a targets range changes RELATIVE to the ships position. The higher the number the more rapid the CHANGE in range has became. The values generated in our system to describe that real time target range characteristic went from 0 to 999 in a linear fashion. 999 was a theoretical value and I never saw an airborne object exceed a couple hundred. So, its sort of similar to speed but its not speed. For instance a relatively slow moving target that suddenly performs a very tight turn toward or away from the ship would for the duration of that turn possibly have a very high range rate since the change in its position relative to the ship is CHANGING at a very quick rate. Its very much a time weighted change in position measurement.

So I'm standing at the console behind the operator watching and the target has a RR of very close to zero. So low in fact that the target is likely hovering and the RR is most likely attributable completely to our ships movement alone. Suddenly the target's RR jumps and I mean jumps to a pretty high value, stays there and the range is suddenly decreasing meaning the target has turned inbound and is moving pretty quickly at us. CIC is concerned and since we're getting no friendly response on the IFF squawk, CIC says to light the target up with the illumination. Our missile radar was really two "radars" in one. The first a pulsed doppler tracking radar to keep the dish continuously pointed at the target and the second (which you can turn on or off) is a continuous wave CW (constant) missile guidance radar which sends course information to the missile in flight intending to have it intercept the target at some future predicted (based on the targeting information of range, speed, RR etc) position. More sophisticated than a simple beam rider targeting system but less sophisticated than an active homing system where you shoot, acquire and forget the missile because it "acquires the target and computes its own internal interception prediction and flies itself there. This one is classified as "semi-active homing" and you have to track the target all the way to intercept, the missile is only listening, not tracking by itself.

So, we light up the target with the CW guidance and usually when the target is able to see the missile illumination radar - which means "we're pretty damn close - moments away in fact - to shooting at your ass" - they ether squawk back or take evasive action. So we light it up and suddenly....I mean immediately....the RR goes to 999, the audio makes a sound I never heard, the dish slews upward trying to maintain the radar tracking lock and slams into the upper elevation stops and the target is gone. I mean....gone....and I mean immediately gone. We all looked at each other with sort of a WTF did I just see look and reported tracking loss to CIC who confirmed the target no longer painted on the air search either. That means it shot straight up at an unheard of pace and simply left. We gawked at each other for a few seconds........muttered a few WTFs and went about our business.

Can I explain that........no........do I think it was extra terrestrials...........no.

 

 

 

Spoofing?

What you really know is that you were receiving a signal close in frequency and return time to the one you were transmitting, then it changed frequency.  The assumption behind radar is that the signal you were receiving was a reflection of what you transmitted, but all you really know is that you are receiving a signal from "over there" that's in the neighborhood of the frequency you expect, what its frequency is and when you received it.  If someone is motivated to fuck with you, they can.  It's easier to make up a spoof signal in the digital age, but not impossible in the analog days.  Did the guidance radar return anything?

 

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I saw a "UFO" once - an apparent meteorite track made an instantaneous 90 degree turn while I was watching it.

The whole UFO thing can be explained away as nonsense by one very simple fact.

Any species sufficiently advanced to have mastered interstellar travel would be way too smart to have anything to do with a species as primitive and violent as us.

They'd scan us from afar and say "That Trump creature is the most important being on that planet? Fuck that - we'll check back in 10,000 years".

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1 hour ago, FoolOnTheHill said:

Spoofing?

What you really know is that you were receiving a signal close in frequency and return time to the one you were transmitting, then it changed frequency.  The assumption behind radar is that the signal you were receiving was a reflection of what you transmitted, but all you really know is that you are receiving a signal from "over there" that's in the neighborhood of the frequency you expect, what its frequency is and when you received it.  If someone is motivated to fuck with you, they can.  It's easier to make up a spoof signal in the digital age, but not impossible in the analog days.  Did the guidance radar return anything?

 

Since its (was...that was a LONG time ago) a doppler shift tracking radar you are exactly right on the frequency shift. The CW guidance element was not set up to receive or measure a return. Only the pulse doppler return is captured and analyzed. However....the surface search radar which is NOT a pulsed doppler but a AN/SPS -48 long range air search radar (which I did not work on and didn't know much about....an entirely different group of FT's worked on that system) also painted a great target return during the entire event..until it did not.....it was the surface search that passed the target coordinates to our tracking and guidance radar for acquisition. We immediately acquired and solidly tracked...no hunting at all. The radar was a much earlier variant of the rig described and shown below. The C/D designation means it was an analog system upgraded to a partial digital system through a Signal Data Converter (SDC) interface. She was John S. McCain DDG-36 (converted from the DL3) one of just two ships in the Mitscher Class converted to a guided missile destroyer so the conversion of the fire control system from gun only to support the Tartar Missile as well was kind of cobbled together and a forerunner of the similar looking but much more modern later digital versions. I never worked on those, only the McCain. Still we pretty much hit everything we shot at. I am not at all familiar with the spoofing you describe and that was not in our training/school. I will say the stuff we shot at was not very sophisticated either. The notion they had the capability for spoofing off those airborne platforms seems unlikely during those years. Certianly can't say for sure though.

 

Quote

SPG-51

The AN/SPG-51 is a target tracking and illumination radar used with the Tartar/ Standard-MR Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM), in conjunction with the Mk 74 gun and missile fire control system. It was the first operational pulse-Doppler tracking radar.
The antenna is a parabolic dish reflector with offset horn feed. The Mk 74 uses two SPG-51 radar antennas per missile launcher; the antennas are stepped down from the air-search radar that first detects the target. Data goes from the air search radar to the Mk 74 digital fire control computer, which assigns a search pattern to the SPG-51 until the target is acquired.
The radar tracks the target, providing angle and range information to the missile launchers through the fire control computer; the operator can override angle and range tracking computation. Target tracking uses the differences in Doppler shifts in target returns, allowing experienced operators to hear as well as see the target picture.
Embedded I-band antennas in the SPG-51′s reflector illuminate the target for the semiactive radar-homing seekers in the Standard missile.

Also picture of the McCain underway.

TARTAR_fire_control_radars_mg_5851.jpg

USS_John_S._McCain_(DDG-36)_underway_1977.jpg

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7 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I saw a "UFO" once - an apparent meteorite track made an instantaneous 90 degree turn while I was watching it.

The whole UFO thing can be explained away as nonsense by one very simple fact.

Any species sufficiently advanced to have mastered interstellar travel would be way too smart to have anything to do with a species as primitive and violent as us.

They'd scan us from afar and say "That Trump creature is the most important being on that planet? Fuck that - we'll check back in 10,000 years".

Or they need a higher co2 level to live here and keep coming to check on how we are going.

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15 hours ago, Point Break said:

So I reject the notion of extra terrestrials secretly visiting us and performing any of the mysterious actions (from kidnapping farmers in Nebraska for "study" to the Easter Island Moai)  attributed those visitors. That is after some consideration and really the logic presented by Dr Carl Sagan in his 1995 seminal work (in my view) "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark". In that work he has a chapter in which he examines the notion of alien visitations so logical and completely that I arrived at that view. That does not mean there are "things" or phenomena that cannot be easily explained and/or we don't currently understand but those things (IMHO) are unlikely to be the product of extra terrestrial visits....not that the existence of life outside our planet is impossible, rather the notion of these secret visitations and activities by some beings so "advanced" as to be capable of interstellar travel .........make no logical sense.

Advanced beings always do things that make sense.

That's pretty funny on a sailing forum, don't you think?

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I watched the interview last night.

Scanning down the responses I don't see anyone committing to accepting what this guy described.  I have no reason not to believe what he said, particularly given the treatment he has received e.g. history erased etc.

This demonstrates the stigma of accepting the UFO thing.  PB danced around in several posts even though what he saw cannot be explained in terms other than those described by Bob Lazar, but still nuh.  Some great tap-dancing.guys.

Easy to see why he has had such a hard time.

So Bob Lazar, I find your testimony believable.

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2 hours ago, random said:

Is believing in UFO's anti-christian in the USA?

don't have two hours to burn,  but, As big as the galaxy is,  I find its an incredible waste of space if earth was the only planet with sentient life.  So by that assumption,  there must be other sentient beings in the universe.  So one can assume that since we have been able to travel beyond our planet and send probes beyond our solar system,  other beings must be able to do the same thing.  and since we are by far more advance than we were 1000 years ago.  its also safe to assume that there are other beings that could be much more advanced from the technological point of view than we are.  hard not to believe that there are potentially other beings out there.

From a christian point view (I am not one)  but from years of being brought as such,  it does go against their beliefs.  Hell if you read the bible  they don't really have an explanation for the dinosaurs or the fact scientist have dated the earth far older than 6000 years.  No explanation for early homo sapiens, et....

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10 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

So by that assumption,  there must be other sentient beings in the universe.

Here's a Drake equation calculator for your amusement:  http://www.as.utexas.edu/cgi-bin/drake.pl

Of course, the problem is that, however likely it is that there is intelligent life, ETs haven't made any delectable signals and they should have. ETs visiting Earth from outside the solar system almost requires a novel and contradictory physics. ETs visiting and getting captured but kept secret while being studied by lots of investigators for decades requires a massive conspiracy. The universe seems a strange place, so it could all be true. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. One man's testimony is interesting but not extraordinary. Crazy folks testifying to impossible things that they have witnessed are a dime a dozen. Now maybe this guy is the real deal but skepticism is not an irrational reaction to his story.

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27 minutes ago, weightless said:

Here's a Drake equation calculator for your amusement:  http://www.as.utexas.edu/cgi-bin/drake.pl

Of course, the problem is that, however likely it is that there is intelligent life, ETs haven't made any delectable signals and they should have. ETs visiting Earth from outside the solar system almost requires a novel and contradictory physics. ETs visiting and getting captured but kept secret while being studied by lots of investigators for decades requires a massive conspiracy. The universe seems a strange place, so it could all be true. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. One man's testimony is interesting but not extraordinary. Crazy folks testifying to impossible things that they have witnessed are a dime a dozen. Now maybe this guy is the real deal but skepticism is not an irrational reaction to his story.

Agreed. I certainly do not suggest that we are alone in the universe, quite to the contrary, I think it is more likely than not given the incalculable immensity of the universe. I simply reject - awaiting proof, not stories - that we have been secretly visited...again and again........

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2 minutes ago, floating dutchman said:

Why doesn't someone somewhere just interrogate a white mouse?

You'd think that with the appropriate interrogation techniques we could get at least one of the little fuckers to talk.

Nah, Frankie and Benjy don't know shit. Now Deep Thought............that's who we need to ask.

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4 minutes ago, floating dutchman said:

Deep thought was superseded by another, better computer to answer the question....

Well, the answer is one thing...............the question is another matter all together.............

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10 hours ago, Point Break said:

Agreed. I certainly do not suggest that we are alone in the universe, quite to the contrary, I think it is more likely than not given the incalculable immensity of the universe. I simply reject - awaiting proof, not stories - that we have been secretly visited...again and again........

Is it a secret if military guys see it on radar?

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22 hours ago, weightless said:

Of course, the problem is that, however likely it is that there is intelligent life, ETs haven't made any delectable signals and they should have.

You mean delectable signals like this?

image.png.8e3fab57e0f693510a7f35e6a01314ec.png

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On 6/24/2019 at 3:09 PM, Point Break said:

the target is gone. I mean....gone....and I mean immediately gone. We all looked at each other with sort of a WTF did I just see look and reported tracking loss to CIC who confirmed the target no longer painted on the air search either. That means it shot straight up at an unheard of pace and simply left. We gawked at each other for a few seconds........muttered a few WTFs and went about our business.

Can I explain that........no........do I think it was extra terrestrials...........no.

 

19 hours ago, Point Break said:
22 hours ago, Importunate Tom said:

Is it a secret if military guys see it on radar?

What did we see?

A UFO, obviously. And one that performed a mysterious action. Maybe a couple of radars broke in the same way at the same time. Maybe "they" already had harnessed the awesome power of nanothermite way back then. Do you think it was terrestrial?

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On 6/24/2019 at 9:47 AM, aA said:

anyone catch this? he certainly doesn’t speak out much so it was interesting to hear. my high level of skepticism remains but it does make me ask wtf when taken in context with the navy pilots reporting from both coasts

thoughts?

 

 

 

  He seems rational but there is a striking inconsistency between the claim the interior and controls are utterly unfathomable and the claim there are pilots flying the craft in "tests", both low and "high performance" in his story.  

 

  A related story is the curious patent awarded to the US Navy recently:

 https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28729/docs-show-navy-got-ufo-patent-granted-by-warning-of-similar-chinese-tech-advances

  It's an interesting coinkydink that Lazar suddenly pops up again after years of silence right when the Navy gets such a "patent". Reversed engineered a flying saucer? They have a big breakthrough in electomagnetics? Elaborate dis-information campaign to get the Chinese a-working furiously on bullshit? Who knows? But a vehicle that can brush aside all matter and move at will? That would be a hoot to have on 405.      

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7 hours ago, Mark K said:

He seems rational but there is a striking inconsistency between the claim the interior and controls are utterly unfathomable and the claim there are pilots flying the craft in "tests", both low and "high performance" in his story.  

His claims seem more rational to me than your post.  HOw many times did he stress that he was not told anything that he did not need to know?

It is completely rational to me that others were responsible for working out how it was controlled.

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7 hours ago, Mark K said:

But a vehicle that can brush aside all matter and move at will? That would be a hoot to have on 405.      

How about telling someone just a hundred years ago that men would land on the moon?

BTW I find the descriptions and claims of UFOs more comprehensible than the reality of the Double Slit Experiment.

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9 hours ago, random said:

How about telling someone just a hundred years ago that men would land on the moon?

 

Depends on the person I suppose but the idea of it was commonplace and the tech to do it was already under development. People had been writing about the possibility with varying degrees of seriousness for hundreds of years a hundred years ago. Around one hundred years ago there was a published theoretical framework for multi-stage rocketry for space flight.* By 1914 Guddard had a patents on single and multi-stage rockets.*  While I'm sure many would have been skeptical that people could achieve it nothing about the idea required re-writing the known physics of the day.

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3 hours ago, weightless said:

Depends on the person I suppose but the idea of it was commonplace and the tech to do it was already under development. People had been writing about the possibility with varying degrees of seriousness for hundreds of years a hundred years ago. Around one hundred years ago there was a published theoretical framework for multi-stage rocketry for space flight.* By 1914 Guddard had a patents on single and multi-stage rockets.*  While I'm sure many would have been skeptical that people could achieve it nothing about the idea required re-writing the known physics of the day. 

Fucking hell.  Yeah and there are people working on time travel using the principles of quantum mechanics where all states and times exist simultaneously.  Traveling faster than light using entanglement.  When that happens it will be so fucking boring won't it?

So? Your point is that there are no UFO's and aliens?

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Watched Rogan & the Netflix docu.

Odd that no one else who worked there has come forward to back Lazar’s epic story.

And if this is all fact - WTF is going on down there?

Rogan told a story about Russian built spacecraft & heinous plastic surgery on mentally retarded small folk made to look like little Aliens.  That was bizarre.

 

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I listened to the entire podcast because I don't have many better things to do with my life right now.  In my opinion, based on my experience, Bob is mostly full of shit.  In addition to the inconsistencies in his story that Mark K pointed out, there are many more. 

Early on, Lazar is talking about security clearances and said something about having a Level 2 clearance, the civilian equivalent of a military Top Secret clearance.  Since almost forever, all clearances are the same.  The process is the same across all branches of the military for military and civilians alike.  While the process starts locally, beyond a secret clearance, all higher clearances end up at the same place and undergo the same vetting process.   Another remarkable piece of absolute bull shit, is that he took some friends outside the top secret base and was caught.  He claims he was talked to and basically slapped on the wrist.  If he worked where he allegedly worked under the tight security he described then if he had indeed had a clearance (which he must have if he worked as described) it would be at a minimum a TS/SCI (Top Secret/Secure Compartmented Information) clearance, or more likely, a TS/Code Word clearance which requires a very high level clearance just to know what clearance he had.  I have seen people have their Secret clearance (which almost anyone can get) pulled just for a problem reporting income taxes, a DUI, or some other relatively innocuous problem.   If you have a clearance at the level Lazar should have had, he would have been immediately removed from the program and would never get any kind of clearance for the rest of his life, and could have ended up in prison.  The government does not take security violations lightly, especially at the higher levels.  There are a few million DoD employees, military personnel and assorted contractors.  A significant number of them hold TS or higher clearances.  Given these numbers, a surprisingly small amount of classified information is ever leaked publicly, especially at the higher levels.  (I am not counting espionage cases. )  In general, most highly classified material is kept that way.  

Lazar goes on to relate many other things that just defy believability.  Of course DoD scientists regularly try to blow up little understood alien objects just for shits and grins.  Uh huh.  As far as Lazar claiming his records were wiped, that is a common excuse and/or paranoid fantasy.  It is also a very convenient way to explain why his story can't be verified.  People that falsely claim to be special forces operators, combat heroes, Medal of Honor recipients, etc., often tell skeptics that their records were sealed or destroyed for security reasons.  That's absolute bull shit.

If you hear enough tales of people like Lazar, whether it's about UFOs, stolen valor, or any other out their stories, you tend to hear the same language, the same explanations, and the same BS.  Like the 911 truthers, they often cite each other to support their BS, credible outsiders and experts rarely support their stories.   The last parts of the podcast were just as Rogan said earlier, like ideas he had when he was really high.  Just a bunch of useless speculation founded on very little fact and a lot of conjecture and flights of fantasy.   There are many other bits in the podcast that are completely incredulous and easily dismissible by any rational person.  To list them all would take too much space here.

All in all I would rate Lazar's credibility and believability a solid 'D'.  It has nothing to do with other intelligent life in the universe, I think the odds of that are pretty good.  it has to do with the fact that in my opinion, Lazar is a man that is suffering from delusions and paranoia.  I am sure he believes what he is saying , and I do believe he isn't profiting from it.  I think he is suffering from some kind of mental disorder.  

The final argument that Lazar is full of shit is the fact that our very own Random believes and defends Lazar.  Random has never met a wacked out conspiracy/fantasy that he hasn't liked and he is strenuously defending the nut case, Lazar.  As we often said in the mental health business (somewhat tongue in cheek), "It takes one to know one".  Ladies and gentlemen, the prosecution rests.

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6 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

The final argument that Lazar is full of shit is the fact that our very own Random believes and defends Lazar.  Random has never met a wacked out conspiracy/fantasy that he hasn't liked and he is strenuously defending the nut case, Lazar.  As we often said in the mental health business (somewhat tongue in cheek), "It takes one to know one".  Ladies and gentlemen, the prosecution rests.

So there we have it Ladies and Gentlemen.  A guy in Poland has made a call, with no additional information than a podcast. 

Your conclusions are as full of holes as Lazar's story.  Your claim that I am defending him is a stretch.  I said his story was "believable" given that he has supporting information. 

On the other hand, we have Ed, the guy who fails to inform people that his service record was not a combat one, allows them to think that his disability is combat related, says that the documented evidence that Lazar is recognized by workers at former work places, while the formal record is missing ... is delusional?  Mmmmm. 

From my personal experience, I have never met anyone connected with "the mental health industry" who was not on a search for a cure for their own demons, batshit crazy.  And when you have nothing else, attack someone nearby.  Three words for you Ed ...Weapons of fucking Mass Destruction.  The demons are gaining on you.

 

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On 6/30/2019 at 3:27 AM, random said:

 

BTW I find the descriptions and claims of UFOs more comprehensible than the reality of the Double Slit Experiment.

the double slit experiment is way more fun then riding in a UFO

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7 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Early on, Lazar is talking about security clearances and said something about having a Level 2 clearance, the civilian equivalent of a military Top Secret clearance.  Since almost forever, all clearances are the same

That sounded a bit simplistic to me, given how a hierarchical organisation works, so I had a look ...

Processing a Clearance Application

"Once you complete the questionnaire, it is sent to the Defense Security Service (DSS). They verify the information and perform the actual background investigation. The level of the investigation depends upon the level of access to be granted."

Ed will be along soon to tell us that it all must have changed.

This thread is no longer about Lazar, it's about people who make claims with even less evidence.

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8 minutes ago, chum said:

Ask Travis if it’s true.

 

454139FF-1989-495A-8326-6CD0D5792797.jpeg

The abduction portrayed in the movie actually had nothing to do with Walton's account. After being struck by the light, Walton remembers waking up on a table surrounded by three aliens, whom he described thusly: "Their bald heads were disproportionately large for their puny bodies. They had bulging, oversized craniums, a small jaw structure, and an underdeveloped appearance to their features that was almost infantile. Their thin-lipped mouths were narrow; I never saw them open. Lying close to their heads on either side were tiny crinkled lobes of ears. Their miniature rounded noses had small oval nostrils. The only facial feature that didn't appear underdeveloped were those incredible eyes! Those glistening orbs had brown irises twice the size of those of a normal human eye's, nearly an inch in diameter! The iris was so large that even parts of the pupils were hidden by the lids, giving the eyes a certain catlike appearance. There was very little of the white part of the eye showing. They had no lashes and no eyebrows." According to Walton's account, he leaped up from the table, grabbed an instrument on a nearby table, wielded it as a weapon, and swung it at the aliens. They filed out of the room. Walton walked into a room with a high backed chair in the middle and took a seat. Upon operating a set of controls, he deduced that he was in some sort of observatory. Suddenly, a man in a blue suit with a glass helmet came through a doorway. When Walton spoke to him, he didn't respond; he merely guided Walton through the doorway. The wordless man lead Walton through a doorway, out of a saucer-like object, into a hangar filled with other saucers, down a hallway, and into a room that featured three more humans. Walton's questions continued to go unanswered as they motioned for him to lie down on the table. One of the 'humans', a woman, placed a mask over his face and he immediately passed out. All of this was consciously recollected by Walton, and when undergoing hypnotic regression soon after the incident, he revealed no further information and stated that he felt as though delving any deeper would kill him. 

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Walton had flunked a polygraph examination paid for by the National Enquirer and administered by the most experienced examiner in the state of Arizona, who concluded that Walton was practicing “gross deception.” The then-influential UFO group APRO (which was promoting Walton’s story) and the National Enquirer concealed this embarrassing fact. Walton later passed a different polygraph test (for which he had adequate time to prepare) but then failed one on the 2008 TV show Moment of Truth. In reality, if someone is anticipating taking a polygraph exam, and practices for it, they have a very good chance of fooling the examiner. I have summarized the skeptic’s case against the Walton “abduction” at http://www.debunker.com/texts/walton.html .

 

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1 hour ago, random said:

So there we have it Ladies and Gentlemen.  A guy in Poland has made a call, with no additional information than a podcast. 

Your conclusions are as full of holes as Lazar's story.  Your claim that I am defending him is a stretch.  I said his story was "believable" given that he has supporting information. 

On the other hand, we have Ed, the guy who fails to inform people that his service record was not a combat one, allows them to think that his disability is combat related, says that the documented evidence that Lazar is recognized by workers at former work places, while the formal record is missing ... is delusional?  Mmmmm. 

From my personal experience, I have never met anyone connected with "the mental health industry" who was not on a search for a cure for their own demons, batshit crazy.  And when you have nothing else, attack someone nearby.  Three words for you Ed ...Weapons of fucking Mass Destruction.  The demons are gaining on you.

 

Look dude.  I don't care for your crazy addiction to any and all conspiracy theories, but BJ Porter said you are OK in person and I respect BJ so I don't doubt that it's true that you can be a reasonable person.  But you pissed me off with this post.  I have on many occasions said that I was never in comabt in the Army even though I was on active duty during the end of the Viet Nam war, during my first enlistment, and also the first Gulf war during my second stint in the Army.  I have been very careful to make that clear and I have also never inferred that my disabilities are combat related.  I have also gone into extensive detail (too extensive at times I'm sure but I am verbose) about my time in the Army, my jobs, and duty stations while in the Army.   So for you to make such an accusation is bull shit and unecessary.  Your stating that I was never in combat seems to me proof of what I have just said or how would you know otherwise?  I am proud of my service.  I am not at all ashamed of never having served in combat, a small percentage of the military sees combat, the majority of military personnel serve as support of one kind or another to keep the combat roops functioning and it is a very important and necessary function.  In addition, working in my job in mental health and also working on my own time in military medical clinics and trauma centers, I am pretty sure that other than being shot at, I have seen and heard many horrible, traumatic things that troops serving in a combat zone might not have seen or heard.  Have you ever had to liisten to small children describe horrific sexual and physical abuse?  Have you ever had the responsibility of dealing with a suicidal person, or tried to talk to the parents of a teen that had killed himself?  Have you ever seen lifeless teenagers riddled with bullet holes as a result of gang violence?  Did you ever see what a high impact motor vehicle accident or a close range shotgun blast can do to a human body?  Have you ever felt people die under your hands?  I have experienced all of these things and more on multiple occasions and I feel no shame in admitting that I have been in therapy in the past to help me deal with the emotional effects of these traumatic experiences.  Not all PTSD originates on a battlefield.  Do you know how many times I went home after being called in for a mental health emergency in the early morning hours, or a tough night in the ER, and went in to my young daughters bedroom with tears in my eyes, watching her peacefully sleeping and hoping she would never have to experience some of the things I had to deal with   I would do it all again because I can say with certainty that both individually and as part of a team I have saved a number of lives, and that is the most gratifying twork I have ever done in my life and it was worth the pain it has caused me. And no, I am not "Bat shit crazy.". 

To say that people that work in the mental health business are dealing with their own demons or are "batshit crazy" is not only a slur on me but on hundreds of thousands of dedicated people that do a terribly difficult, emotionally draining job, not for fame or fortune, but because they really want to help those in need.  Are there people in the mental health business that are there for the reasons you suggest?  Yes, I have worked with a few, particularly in the drug and alcohol abuse area.  But in my experience, they are in the minority.  When I was teaching the Army mental health tech training course my last 2 years on active duty, we occasionally had students that were in the course because they wanted to deal with their own issues.  Most of them  didn't make it to the end of the training.  We had a 20-30% attrition rate and one reason for releasing a student besides academic failure or misbehavior, was that their personal issues were too great an impediment for them to function effectively on the job.   Believe it or not, most people with a diagnosible, moderate to severe mental health disorders usually don't function well in helping others deal with their issues.  In addition, many people that seek treatment for mental issues have situational problems and need some guidance, they aren't "batshit crazy".  Depending in what setting people work in the human behavior field, they might rarely encounter "batshit crazy", if ever.  So in your pathetic attempt to drag me down, you have also insulted the millions of people that either had a time in their life that they experienced some problems and had the guts to seek help as well as people with issues far beyond their control that needed help as well.  It is this persistent myth that many people have about seeking help with various mental health issues (which is a very broad spectrum) and often a normal part of being human, that causes people to be reluctant for fear of being stigmatized by idiots such as yourself.  That's a shame, because like any other medical problem that could benefit from treatment, avoiding or ignoring the situation for any reason often leads to it reaching a crisis level which could have been prevented by prompt treatment.  

I stand by my informed opinion about Mr. Lazar, I have heard some remarkably similar stories in my job in the past.  His "supporting information is often not verifiable or credible, I gave a couple of examples of why I formed that opinion, I did't want to write a lenghty post with more examples.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion as well.  My criticism of you is hardly of the vicious personal level you have chose to attack me with.

You are actually right in a sense about personal demons.  For the past couple of years I have been struggling with some kind of progressive neuro-muscular disorder that is slowly robbing me of my strength and my ability to function in normal life and making my life extremely difficult.  It is draining physically and emotionally but I am a pretty tough guy.  I can deal with it for now and dealing with someone like you is quite easy compared to my real problems.

I am curious what your personal experience and issues are that would cause you to lash out at me in such a false and vicious way.  I said at the beginning that you pissed me off, which I am sure was your intention, but ultimately I feel some empathy toward you.  I truly believe that I am not the real issue here.  Perhaps you could talk to somebody about what is really bothering you.  Or if you wish, continue to suffer in silence, it's your right.  But please keep me out of it.  

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1 hour ago, random said:

That sounded a bit simplistic to me, given how a hierarchical organisation works, so I had a look ...

Processing a Clearance Application

"Once you complete the questionnaire, it is sent to the Defense Security Service (DSS). They verify the information and perform the actual background investigation. The level of the investigation depends upon the level of access to be granted."

Ed will be along soon to tell us that it all must have changed.

This thread is no longer about Lazar, it's about people who make claims with even less evidence.

I am not sure why you quoted the italicized part, I don't see the relevance there to anything I said.  I reiterate and the link you show verifies that a DoD clearance is a DoD clearance whether the individual is a military member or civilian employee.  There is no such thing as a "Level 2 civilian" clearance in the DoD.  The "level of the investigation" means the depth of the investigation, not the level of the clearance be it Secret, Top Secret, etc.  Nobody is going to knock on anybody's door for a Secret clearance, for example.  When anybody with a DoD security clearance talks about the "level", it is always using the words Secret, etc., not how intense the background investigation was.

And before you go full blown pedant, I inadvertantly substituted the word "secure" for the actual word "sensitive" in a TS/SCI clearance.   Please forgive me for the mistake.  I left my DoD employment in 2008 and my memory isn't what it used to be when it comes to small details.

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  This was a better 'based on a real story' movie about an abduction. Streiber is crazier than a loon, but did create two of the most interesting monster movies of a generation in The Hunger and Wolfen.  David Bowie sucking blood from Catherine Deneuve to a soundtrack that put Bauhaus on the mainstream's radar...I fully believe those movies did more to inspire the last 30 years of non zombie monster movies and TV shows than any other.

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28 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I am curious what your personal experience and issues are that would cause you to lash out at me in such a false and vicious way.  I said at the beginning that you pissed me off, which I am sure was your intention, but ultimately I feel some empathy toward you.  I truly believe that I am not the real issue here.  Perhaps you could talk to somebody about what is really bothering you.  Or if you wish, continue to suffer in silence, it's your right.  But please keep me out of it.  

Nothing 'vicious' about it Ed.  You protesteth too much me thinks.  This is PA, chill.

I distinctly recall you saying that you did not bother to inform anyone that your disability was not related to combat injury.  The post will be there somewhere in the 13,000 +.

I stand by my claim that I have not met anyone on the mental health industry that did not have or had, mental health issues and want to help others by helping themselves.  Not that I have met many, but they all did have issues.  Nothing you can say can alter my experience.

What is bothering me?  There must be something if I am critical of you right?  Maybe I need some counseling from someone with a history of mental illness.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I am not sure why you quoted the italicized part, I don't see the relevance there to anything I said.  I reiterate and the link you show verifies that a DoD clearance is a DoD clearance whether the individual is a military member or civilian employee.  There is no such thing as a "Level 2 civilian" clearance in the DoD.  The "level of the investigation" means the depth of the investigation, not the level of the clearance be it Secret, Top Secret, etc.

My post is linked.  Check it out.  It describes how there are different levels of access.

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14 minutes ago, random said:

Nothing 'vicious' about it Ed.  You protesteth too much me thinks.  This is PA, chill.

I distinctly recall you saying that you did not bother to inform anyone that your disability was not related to combat injury.  The post will be there somewhere in the 13,000 +.

I stand by my claim that I have not met anyone on the mental health industry that did not have or had, mental health issues and want to help others by helping themselves.  Not that I have met many, but they all did have issues.  Nothing you can say can alter my experience.

What is bothering me?  There must be something if I am critical of you right?  Maybe I need some counseling from someone with a history of mental illness.

 

 

Look, I am trying to be patient with you.  You can distinctly remeber anything you like but I can assure you that I would never say something as idiotic as you say I did.  I take great pains to tell people that I was not in combat, not actively involved in any wars and that my disabilities are obviously not combat related.  Although I do have chest tube scar (not related to my service) that looks exactly like a healed bullet wound and it would be very believable to explain it as such.  In today's environment of claims of stolen valor I am especially careful to tell people the truth about my service.  I have said it on this forum enough times that I don't think I need to repeat it every time I mention my service, nor do any of the other veterans here feel the need to expalin every time either.   If you want to believe otherwise, you go right ahead, I will only explain myself to you so many times.  By all means, go through my 13,437 posts and if you find the post you distinctly remember, I will donate one month of my VA disability pay, currently $1,986.62, to the charity of your choice.  Because I never said any such thing, I am not worried about it.  I haven't detailed my disabilities in total because I don't feel a need to do that. Not because I am ashamed but because I don't see a need.  I have admitted here in the past that part of my disabilty compensation is for PTSD as a result ot what I saw and heard in my work in the Army.  As a former mental health care provider I would would feel like a terrible hypocrite to hide my own issues.  If you choose to use that against me, that tells me something about you, I am not at all embarrased or ashamed of it.  If you like I will send you a PM listing the various damages I incurred as a result of my service if you really need to know.  When you go in the military, they give you a pretty thorough physical and they agree to accept responsibility for any damage they might cause during your service, in combat or in normal duty.  I have often said I would happily return every penny the Veterans Administration has paid me over the years, with interest, if I could feel normal again and have a normal life.

As far as your experience with mental health people, I believe you, but the way you stated it originally was clearly implying that anyone in the business was the same way.  

I say something is bothering you, not because you were critical of me, but because you lied about me and expressed yourself in a very hostile, insulting, angry way.  I am often critical of you but not in the way you attacked me and if I have told gross, insulting lies about you, please tell me and if I really did I will try to make amends.  You might be having a bad day, maybe you have had a bad llife but I have to say that your baseless attack on me has gone far beyond the normal, sometimes good natured bickering and bantering that we do here.  Something is rubbing you raw in my opinion and I don't think it is just me.   I could be wrong, I am only human, but I also trust my instincts and experience.  I am no longer in the business and I don't want to be your therapist but if you want to vent in a constuctive way, feel free to PM me. 

And to head off any other controversy I will state, not for the first time here, that I was never a licensed mental health professional, but I attended extensive training conducted by the Army as well as training in various civilian seminars with experts in many areas such as basic mental health principles, family violence, child sexual abuse, drug and alcohol abuse and other subjects.  I would feel very comfortable equating my education and experience to any licensed social worker with a master's degree and 5-10 years of clinical experience.  In our mental health clinic I was treated as an equal by the profesaional staff and was also treated as such by the medical profesionals in our medical clinic in the performance of my mental health duties.  I was on the emergency on call rotation roster the same as our licensed professional providers and was treated the same way as they were when responding to mental health emergencies.  The medical clinic staff or military police never asked to have a licensed provider take my place when I reponded to these calls.  Nor did a client ever demand to see a licensed provider rather than myself in the course of my normal cliical duties.  I received several decorations (medals) for service above and beyond my normal job duties while in the Army.  I  provided psychotherapy under a provisional credential issued under the professional credential of my supervisor which is a legal practice that is endorsed and accepted by the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations or JCAHO.  The 'Joint Commision' is an organization that rigorously inspects and approves acceptable standards of medical care in the majority of health care organizations in the US and most states in the US will not allow the provider to render care without JCAHO accredation.  There are a few other accredation agencies but JACHO is the largest and most well known.  The US military uses JCAHO to accredit all of its health care activities.  I also worked in mental health in the civilian world but not as a therapist.

I am going into great detail because of your obvious unwillingness to accept reasonable statements from me.

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Ed, I'm going sailing so will get back later.

You are over reacting to posts from someone who lives in a country where we tell it like it is, where friends call each other cunts.  If I had a poor opinion of you, you would know about it.

So far all I have done is recall what you told me previously, link you references and tell you personal anecdotes.  And you have 'dropped your play-lunch' over it.

Chill

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1 hour ago, random said:

My post is linked.  Check it out.  It describes how there are different levels of access.

Yes, of course there are different levels of access.  And as I said they are called Secret, Top Secret, etc.  There is no level of access called "Civilian Level 2" in the DoD.  If you insist, re-read your own link.  What Lazar described as his clearance exists only in his own mind.  I used that example because if he made a statement about something that fundamental, it doesn't speak highly of his credibility in other areas.  Anybody working on what Lazar claimed he worked on at Area 51 would undoubtably have a very high level TS clearance.  Anbody with a clearance at that level that got caught doing what Lazar said he got caught doing would be immediately fired at a minimum.  They just don't fuck around with people that have access to that kind of information.  

When I worked in mental health I had to deal with a case of a soldier that worked in Military Intelligence (MI).  She worked in a SCIF, a Sensitive Compartmented  Infomation Facility.  This is a polace where highly classified information is dealt with daily.  People in one office are isolated and unable to share information with others in the next office.  This is a pretty standard procedure where no one person excepot a select few at the highest levels have access to all of the sensitive information.  The idea is that if any one individual is compromised in any way, they can't reveal the entire or even a large part of the information.  It is akward but necessary for highly classified intrelligence.  

The soldier in question got frustrated with her supervisor and threw some classified documents she was working on out into the halway of the SCIF.   People weren't even allowed in the building without some kind of TS/SCI clearance, so any possible damage wasn't too terrible.  She was immediately removed form the building, had her clearance pulled and among other things referred to the mental health clinic for a mental status evaluation to help determine why she did what she did.  Eventually she was removed from the MI job and retrained in a non-military intelligence job.  She will never be able to obtain even a Secret clearance for the resrt of her life.  Her act was nothing compared to what Lazar claimed he did, that is share highly classified, extremely sensitive information information with people who had absolutely no reason to see what he claimed they saw.  An act like that speaks volumes about Lazar's reliability, if he even did such a thing.  The story reeks of gross exaggeration and falsehood.  It is exactly the kind of story someomne would tell who had little to no knowledge of how that kind information and security is actually handled.  A very common form of attention seeking and delusional behavior.  People that tell stories like Lazar does are usually sociopaths or mentally ill.  The people that work with that kind of thing for real just don't talk about it.  To anybody.  Very similar to the fake Navy Seals or Green Berets, etc.  If you meet somebody that tells stories about being in special ops, the chances are about 99.99999% that they were never in special ops.

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18 minutes ago, random said:

Ed, I'm going sailing so will get back later.

You are over reacting to posts from someone who lives in a country where we tell it like it is, where friends call each other cunts.  If I had a poor opinion of you, you would know about it.

So far all I have done is recall what you told me previously, link you references and tell you personal anecdotes.  And you have 'dropped your play-lunch' over it.

Chill

No, you did no such thing.  Your weak rationalizations aren't cutting it, I have a pretty well honed bull shit detector.   I have had to deal with far more accomplished liars than you.  You went off on me like somebody projectile vomiting a bad batch of Bundy.   You told vicious lies about me with little provocation.  I really don't care for that, I don't know anyone that likes that kind of thing.  I don't mind opinions.  Lies are lies, not opinions, there's a difference.

Have a nice sail and contemplate your actions and your need to behave that way.  

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

I am not sure why you quoted the italicized part, I don't see the relevance there to anything I said.  I reiterate and the link you show verifies that a DoD clearance is a DoD clearance whether the individual is a military member or civilian employee.  There is no such thing as a "Level 2 civilian" clearance in the DoD.  The "level of the investigation" means the depth of the investigation, not the level of the clearance be it Secret, Top Secret, etc.  Nobody is going to knock on anybody's door for a Secret clearance, for example.  When anybody with a DoD security clearance talks about the "level", it is always using the words Secret, etc., not how intense the background investigation was.

And before you go full blown pedant, I inadvertantly substituted the word "secure" for the actual word "sensitive" in a TS/SCI clearance.   Please forgive me for the mistake.  I left my DoD employment in 2008 and my memory isn't what it used to be when it comes to small details.

I once did some work for a HVAC contractor during the construction of SCI facilities, I did not require a security clearance because they were unfinished and unoccupied.

I owned a small metal fabrication company at the time, the first requirement was that ALL heating and AC duct work have welded steel grates inside them with the specification of  Minimum 1/2" cross section round or square steel bars welded into a frame the size of the duct interior and screwed to it with no opening more then 1" in size.

This included 5" X 5" returns, I made hundreds of these over a period of years. They came to me one day and said "we have a problem", they had to add all of the security features to an existing commercial building in order to make it SCIF for a weapons contractor. This was apparently a very high level of SCIF, the above mentioned grates were to be fastened with steel threaded rods passed through the duct and grate frames in 2 positions 90 Deg. apart, double nutted on each end then the top nut welded on each end. I told the contractor that I did not do on sight welding nor did I have the equipment to do so.

He said you are going to have to do it, I told him that I had no idea how much to quote for such work and his answer was "as much as you want", can't beat that so I rented a mig welder from HD and knocked it out in 3 hours or so..

One of the other SCIF requirements for duct work is the installation of fabric bellows in the sheet metal that stops the sound of voices in a secure room from being conducted outside of the room via vibration in the steel.

Good work if you can get it.

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