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Hell...... Half the people in that county that sit on their front porches watching their neighbors are vegetables themselves.....

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Try Coral Gables if you think Miami Shores is bad. 

I’m quite happy to leave that shit behind and live in an unincorporated part of the poorest county in the state. I do what I want and the county can’t afford enough inspectors to hassle me.

Fuck kale. Ruby red grapefruit is my game. 

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Try Coral Gables if you think Miami Shores is bad. 

I’m quite happy to leave that shit behind and live in an unincorporated part of the poorest county in the state. I do what I want and the county can’t afford enough inspectors to hassle me.

Fuck kale. Ruby red grapefruit is my game. 

Too bad the Asian dragon (AKA Citrus greening) is going to wipe out our trees in the next 10 years.

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7 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Try Coral Gables if you think Miami Shores is bad. 

I grew up there and he's not kidding. The Tacky Police in the Gables regulate what colors you can paint the INSIDE of your home.

 

7 hours ago, Olsonist said:
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But then a zoning ordinance was tightened to forbid vegetables in the front yard on the grounds that they were unsightly. A daily $50 fine went into effect, so Ricketts pulled up her garden.

And she lawyered up. She reached out to Institute for Justice, a national advocacy group that fights for property rights, among other issues.

It took six years, but they won. An appeals court had ruled against Ricketts, but the Florida Legislature passed a bill protecting vegetable gardens, and last week Gov. Ron DeSantis signed it into law.

 

As I often do, I support the nutjob libertarians at ij.org. I've mentioned my communist/libertarian proclivities on this case in other threads. Specifically,

On 11/12/2017 at 7:05 AM, Importunate Tom said:

In possibly related news,

FL Appeals Court Upholds Vegetable Garden Ban
 

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Hermine Ricketts and her husband, Laurence Carroll, had kept a nicely manicured vegetable garden in their front yard for nearly two decades. Then, in 2013, Miami Shores adopted an ordinance that banned vegetable gardens, and vowed to fine violators each day they failed to comply with the law.

The couple sued, arguing, as a local CBS affiliate put it, "that the ordinance ran afoul of the Florida Constitution, including that it violated their privacy rights and their right to acquire, possess and protect property."

Last year, a Florida state court upheld the vegetable-garden ban, on grounds that aesthetic reasons—the city thinks vegetables are ugly—are sufficient justification for a city to ban vegetable gardens.

Last week—a few days after my Seattle talk—a state appeals court ruled in the matter. The court's words are, at first, buoying. The decision begins with an non-exhaustive list of all the things Miami Shores residents may have in their front yards: "garden gnomes, pink flamingos and trolls.... boats and jet skis.... whatever trees, flowers, shrubs, grasses, fruits and berries they desire."

Everything save for vegetables.

 

The court's answer: elect different people if you don't like zoning rules.

It's sometimes a good answer. It's the kind of answer Robert Bork would consistently give, so I guess that's bad. OTOH, it can be considered a good answer with respect to tools.

In this case, though I'm sympathetic to the gardeners, I think the court got it right. If "that's too ugly" isn't a valid zoning concern, the Tacky Police are going to be extremely upset. That's exactly why we have zoning rules in the first place.

The other answer, in addition to electing people who are OK with ugly veggies, is to simply flee...

And earlier this year, when we went with the Bork approach...

On 3/25/2019 at 12:57 PM, Importunate Tom said:

 

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25 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

What do "Communists" have to do with this??????????????

It used to be everything....<_<....all the time......in the 50’s, at least............bedfellows.......under rocks..........in Studio 54..........

 

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37 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

What do "Communists" have to do with this??????????????

I was just making a joke. Everyone complains about California and Berkeley. Police in FLA telling people they can’t grow veggies in the front yard just seems weird. That it would take a state law to change this seems weirder.

 

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3 hours ago, Amati said:

It used to be everything....<_<....all the time......in the 50’s, at least............bedfellows.......under rocks..........in Studio 54..........

 

and behind every Bush.  Commies loved them shrubberies.

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16 hours ago, Olsonist said:

I was just making a joke. Everyone complains about California and Berkeley. Police in FLA telling people they can’t grow veggies in the front yard just seems weird. That it would take a state law to change this seems weirder.

 

There was a YUGE spike in agricultural activity on Thursday.

(The fun kinds of fireworks are mostly banned here, unless you sign a form swearing that you're just scaring birds for agricultural reasons.)

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19 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Everyone complains about California and Berkeley. Police in FLA telling people they can’t grow veggies in the front yard just seems weird. That it would take a state law to change this seems weirder.

Zoning isn't a thing out in California?

I explained the weirdness in 2017, reposted above.

Koch-$pon$ored Communism Clarifies
 

Quote

 

The Florida legislature has passed a bill shielding vegetable gardens from local prohibitions. "After nearly six years of fighting…I will once again be able to legally plant vegetables in my front yard," Ricketts said in a statement. "I'm grateful to the Legislature and the governor for standing up to protect my freedom to grow healthy food on my own property."

The Institute for Justice filed a lawsuit on Ricketts' behalf in 2013. Florida's Third District Court of Appeals upheld the ban, and the state's Supreme Court declined to hear the case. So Ricketts and the institute lobbied the legislature, and it passed a law effectively invalidating the local ordinance. Gov. Ron DeSantis signed it last week.

How were city commissioners able to pass the rule in the first place, much less get it past an appeals court? It was billed as a zoning regulation, which cities have near-unlimited power in implementing. The Florida League of Cities opposed Ricketts' efforts until the end, arguing that code enforcement is an essential tool for maintaining a town's aesthetic. They also didn't like the idea of a state government preempting measures adopted at the local level.

 

Punta Gorda's historic district has an aesthetic. The message it conveys seems to be "this was what we could afford!" It's charming.

 

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Iguanas Rule

5d28df991fa74.image.jpg?resize=1200,1037
 

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...

“We’ve called the property management company who oversees the home, Charlotte County Code Enforcement, the health and environmental department and the bank to complain about the house being overrun with iguanas.”

“More importantly, this house is dangerous,” Kathy added. “It has an in-ground pool with water in it and no pool cage around it. The screens are ripped. We are so afraid a child or teenager might go back there and drown.”

Every few months, Kathy notified the property management company of issues with the house. She called Bank of America, the mortgage holder, to complain about the dilapidated roof, the dangling soffit and black mold all over the outside walls.

“The only thing that has been done after every complaint is the yard is mowed,” Kathy said.

...

 

But the lawn is mowed from time to time and for some reason the owners have continued to pay the property taxes, though they're losing the home in foreclosure at the moment.

I'd be frustrated if I were Kathy too.
 

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According to county documents, beginning in 2013, Charlotte County cited the property owner for tall grass, outdoor storage, the pool, roof and ripped screening. Two more liens came in 2014, and more in 2017, 2018 and 2019. To date, there’s about $10,000 in fines associated with the property.

Horton said aside from the fines and liens, there’s not much more that could be done by his department.

“For us, it’s a double-edged sword because the property taxes are paid every year on this house,” Horton said. “It’s a real catch-22 because of the way the private property laws are written. We can’t go on the property and drill a hole in the pool to empty it. We can’t damage private property. Even if we just removed the water by hand, it would fill up again and rather quickly.”

 

The county says they can only intervene in a dangerous situation. Funny, lots of my friends have fencing around their pools because not doing so is dangerous.

So what are the code enforcement folks busy doing instead? Funny I should ask. This picture turned one year old today.

NewBoatport.jpg

It would have been done a bit sooner, but we had to complete the second of two required termite treatments before the permit was finally cleared. They pumped gallons of who-knows-what into the soil around the concrete pad. If you're wondering whether the termites eat steel or concrete, you're not alone.

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  • 1 year later...
On 7/5/2019 at 12:18 PM, Olsonist said:

I was just making a joke. Everyone complains about California and Berkeley. Police in FLA telling people they can’t grow veggies in the front yard just seems weird. That it would take a state law to change this seems weirder.

It was unique but soon Illinois may become the second state to protect the freedom to grow a vegetable garden in your yard.
 

Quote

 

Late last week, Rep. Sonya Harper filed the Illinois Vegetable Garden Protection Act (HB 633), which would preserve and protect the right of all Illinoisans to “cultivate vegetable gardens on their own property, or on the property of another with the permission of the owner, in any county, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state.” The Act would protect the right to grow vegetables, as well as “herbs, fruits, flowers, pollinator plants, leafy greens, or other edible plants.” For many Illinoisans, this reform has been a long-time coming, as similar measures have come close to passage in prior sessions. A companion bill in the Senate will also be introduced. 

...

If passed, Illinois would become a national leader in the local food movement, becoming just the second state to provide express protection for the right to grow one’s own food. In 2019, Florida enacted the nation’s first statewide Vegetable Garden Protection Act, which sprouted from a years-long legal battle the Institute for Justice fought on behalf of a Miami Shores couple that was forced to uproot their 17-year old vegetable garden, after the city banned vegetable gardens in front yards. The Florida and Illinois legislative reforms are part of IJ’s National Food Freedom Initiative, which promotes the ability of individuals to produce, procure and consume the foods of their choice.

“This bill strips local governments of the power to impose HOA-style prohibitions on an act of self-sufficiency in which humans have been engaged for thousands of years,” said IJ Nutjob Ari Bargil. ...

 

 

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Boss of mine had a place near Destin, had a planning session there incl golf. When he left early to get us signed in we planted a plastic flamingo in the front. He kinda freaked out on his return AND he got some nasty letters from the HOA. I think it was up for 6 hours, tops.

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17 minutes ago, Pipe Dream said:

land of the fee..... 

FTFY

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On 7/5/2019 at 9:08 AM, Amati said:

It used to be everything....<_<....all the time......in the 50’s, at least............bedfellows.......under rocks..........in Studio 54..........

 

It still is, on RWNJ Gab.com....

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On 7/6/2019 at 5:04 AM, Pedagogical Tom said:

There was a YUGE spike in agricultural activity on Thursday.

(The fun kinds of fireworks are mostly banned here, unless you sign a form swearing that you're just scaring birds for agricultural reasons.)

Update on this: FL has changed our laws to allow fireworks on July 4 and on New Years Eve and New Years Day. I haven't seen any numbers on it, but expect that this caused a large reduction in agricultural activities across the state.

Meanwhile, for those who may think banning gardening is just a FL thing,

Local Laws Ban Front Yard Food Gardens in Cities Across the US

I hope Illinois joins FL in preventing such bans via state law changes, but from the article it seems many other states could use such reform as well.

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50 minutes ago, Pedagogical Tom said:

Update on this: FL has changed our laws to allow fireworks on July 4 and on New Years Eve and New Years Day. I haven't seen any numbers on it, but expect that this caused a large reduction in agricultural activities across the state.

Meanwhile, for those who may think banning gardening is just a FL thing,

Local Laws Ban Front Yard Food Gardens in Cities Across the US

I hope Illinois joins FL in preventing such bans via state law changes, but from the article it seems many other states could use such reform as well.

Did you get a permit for your chickens?

No, you don't have to with AG zoning

The City of Fat Point allows without a permit.

The rest of Charlotte County requires a permit.

$440.00 buys a bunch of eggs.

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38 minutes ago, Fat Point Jack said:

Did you get a permit for your chickens?

No, you don't have to with AG zoning

The City of Fat Point allows without a permit.

The rest of Charlotte County requires a permit.

$440.00 buys a bunch of eggs.

It's $35 now.

 

Quote

 

With the new ordinance, you cannot keep roosters, and the number of hens is restricted depending on your lot size. You must have an entirely enclosed coop for them, plus, you must install a 6-foot opaque fence in the area around the coop.

The commission removed a $440 application fee, but Commissioner Christopher Constance Tuesday added back a $35 fee.

Residents must register with the county, take a course with the state extension service and submit to county inspection if necessary.

 

 

Also, take it to Bird Town Anarchy.

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12 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Ya gotta draw the line somewhere . .  

Wha.....?  I’ll tell the herd guarding the front yard that...

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11 hours ago, Amati said:

Wha.....?  I’ll tell the herd guarding the front yard that...

Do they keep the pythons at bay ?? 

Actual flamingos are way cool . . 

Humor alert - my ol' hood in Ohio was mocked for its plastic flamingos 

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20 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Do they keep the pythons at bay ?? 

Actual flamingos are way cool . . 

Humor alert - my ol' hood in Ohio was mocked for its plastic flamingos 

They guard the septic system treatment works.  Little known fact!  Very modern.  The company rep claimed one could drink the water after treatment.  Until we gave him a glass.....:lol:  the pink metal flamingos laughed and laughed....or was that raindrops splatting on their plumage?  

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On July 4, 2019 at 2:08 AM, Pedagogical Tom said:

I grew up there and he's not kidding. The Tacky Police in the Gables regulate what colors you can paint the INSIDE of your home.

 

As I often do, I support the nutjob libertarians at ij.org. I've mentioned my communist/libertarian proclivities on this case in other threads. Specifically,

And earlier this year, when we went with the Bork approach...

 

You win the convoluted ugly post of the day award for sure. I didn't read it in protest. Correction I checked the date. You won the award on July 4th 2019 ✌

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  • 1 month later...

In other FL code enforcement news, Pasco's Predictive Policing drew the predicted lawsuit.

Quote

Pasco County, Florida’s future policing program is as dystopian as it is unconstitutional. Under the guise of “predictive policing,” for the last 10 years the Pasco County sheriff’s department has used a crude computer algorithm to identify and target supposed “future criminals.” Once identified, these supposed “prolific offenders”—many of whom are minors—are relentlessly surveilled and harassed. As a Tampa Bay Times in-depth investigation uncovered, police regularly show up at their homes unannounced and demand entry. If they or their parents don’t cooperate, police write tickets for petty violations, like missing house numbers or having grass that is too tall. As one former Pasco County deputy put it, they were under orders to “make their lives miserable until they move or sue.”

Or move out and sue...
 

Quote

 

...

Robert Jones, a plaintiff in the lawsuit, knows the cruelties of Pasco’s program firsthand. In 2015, Robert’s teenage son had a number of run-ins with the law. That landed his son on Pasco’s “prolific offender” list. Shortly thereafter deputies started to conduct “prolific offender checks.” These warrantless “checks” involved repeated, unannounced visits to Robert’s home at all hours of the day. Robert grew tired of the harassment and stopped cooperating with police. That only made matters worse.

Code enforcement is a common tactic to compel cooperation. One deputy said they would “literally go out there and take a tape measure and measure the grass if somebody didn’t want to cooperate with us.” In Robert’s case, deputies cited him for tall grass, but failed to notify him of the citation. Then, when he failed to appear for a hearing that he was never told was happening, they arrested him for failure to appear.

All told, Robert was arrested five times by Pasco deputies. Although the bogus charges never stuck—they were all dropped—the harassment accomplished its goal: Robert ultimately moved his family out of Pasco County to escape the constant harassment from the Sheriff’s Office.

“I lived through a living hell because a computer program said my family didn’t belong in Pasco,” said Robert Jones. “I only thought this kind of thing happened in movies, not in America. We’ve got rights. And I’m going to stand up for them and shut this program down.”

Predictive policing gained prominence in the late 2000s as a way for police to use data to better allocate resources. Cities including Los Angeles and Chicago experimented with predictive policing but have subsequently scrapped their programs because of civil rights and effectiveness concerns. In most cases, police departments used data to identify geographic areas in need of additional resources. But Pasco took it one step further by using data to target specific individuals.

“Pasco defends its program as a crime fighting tool,” said Institute for Justice Nutjob Robert Johnson. “But in America, there is no such thing as ‘innocent until predicted guilty.’ The government cannot harass people at their homes just because it thinks they might commit some unspecified future crime.”

...

 

County officials all around FL are very busy worrying about mowing grass. It results in excessive fines and fees in some places and, as here, is a police harassment tool used to make lives miserable.

There was about half an inch of rain here with the last cold front last weekend. That's a lot for this time of year. That will probably be the last one of the year and the next rain will be a summer thunderstorm, likely in late May or early June. So the grass doesn't grow at this time of year, but somehow the weeds still do. Having one stick up above the legal height would be almost impossible.

In summer, I see a direct correlation of 1:1 between how much rain falls and how much my grass grows. Half an inch of rain in today's thunderstorm means half an inch of growth. The next day's storm drops 2" and that will mean 2" of growth. So again, having some grass or weed stick up above the legal height would be almost impossible.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

In code enforcement news,

Communists Overwhelm California Supreme Court
 

Quote

 

Four years ago, Norco homeowner Ron Mugar dared to defend his property in court, and he won. Yet for doing so Ron was nonetheless punished. Norco’s for-profit code enforcement prosecutors—lawyers with Dapeer, Rosenblit & Litvak LLP—charged Ron over $60,000 for what they called “obstructive tactics.” It is illegal and brazen for a law firm to seek attorneys’ fees for a case it lost, but so goes the perverse incentives of a code-enforcement system motivated by profit rather than public safety. Ron fought back with the Institute for Justice (IJ) to challenge the constitutionality of being punished for successfully defending himself in court. Unfortunately, Ron’s journey came to an end Thursday when the California Supreme Court refused to hear his appeal.

“Ron made sure his home was up to code and then he won in court. But he is still being punished with an outrageous charge for exercising his constitutional right to defend himself,” said IJ Nutjob Joshua House. “California property owners everywhere should be gravely concerned that having your house up to code won’t stop for-profit prosecutors from robbing you of your savings or your home. We will never stop fighting for property rights in California.”

...

 

 

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just have a boat were the pigs can see it is a crime here in miami dade county

must be behind the building line no front yard parking even by a little bit

coral gables is way worse pickups and jeeps are banned unless hidden in a garage

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On 3/20/2021 at 3:47 AM, Shambolic Tom said:

In code enforcement news,

Communists Overwhelm California Supreme Court
 

 

So a guys home is so fucked that the City has to start receivership proceedings to get the owner to bring it up to code. Why shouldn’t the homeowner be on the hook to pay the cities costs? FYI yes, $60k seems unreasonable. I doubt the firm had 100+ hours of billable. But that’s a different lawsuit.

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Some people call it "weedy, and unkempt", other people call it a "wild flower meadow, or suburban prairie". Our neighbor in England never tended their "garden". We did, mostly because we'd never lived in such a small space, and also we were renting from the local Anglican priest, who took great pride in his espaliered pears, and his miniature apple orchard (6 trees). I will say that his asparagus bed was an unexpected, and very welcomed bit.

 The neighbors across the street, and the ones two doors down used to complain constantly about the "weedy patch".... I kind of liked it. There were box turtles, and song birds, and all sorts of trouble for a young boy to get in to, if he could get over the fence w/o being seen by his sister, or mother, or prying eyed neighbors...

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5 hours ago, Raz&#x27;r said:

So a guys home is so fucked that the City has to start receivership proceedings to get the owner to bring it up to code. Why shouldn’t the homeowner be on the hook to pay the cities costs? FYI yes, $60k seems unreasonable. I doubt the firm had 100+ hours of billable. But that’s a different lawsuit.

Did you read the article? It was a private, for-profit law firm (endowed by govt with a perverse incentive structure) who was getting paid, not the city.

Quote

“Receiverships should be a last resort, because when cities use receiverships, they’re taking away someone’s home and likely all of their equity. The stakes are huge,” said IJ Nutjob Jeffrey Redfern. “For-profit prosecutors like Norco’s have a financial incentive to get paid for bringing receivership actions. That is not what code enforcement or receiverships should be about.”

It strikes me as similar to the incentive structure we have set up for civil asset forfeitures. An economic stake in enforcement actions that seems wrong to me. Does it seem right to you that the law firm has this kind of incentive?

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1 hour ago, Shambolic Tom said:

Did you read the article? It was a private, for-profit law firm (endowed by govt with a perverse incentive structure) who was getting paid, not the city.

It strikes me as similar to the incentive structure we have set up for civil asset forfeitures. An economic stake in enforcement actions that seems wrong to me. Does it seem right to you that the law firm has this kind of incentive?

Which the city retained to deal with a scofflaw. And he remedied the situation after being sued. There is some cost there. As I said, the amount doesn’t seem reasonable but the scofflaw, by forcing the city to take action, owes some reimbursement. Maybe if he sued over the amount he’d have a better shot at relief.

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So, FL doesn't like vegetable gardens in the front yard.  I can live with that as long as they don't go after old refrigerators or pick-up trucks sitting on blocks.  

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

So, FL doesn't like vegetable gardens in the front yard.  I can live with that as long as they don't go after old refrigerators or pick-up trucks sitting on blocks.  

I read it as more like FL doesn't like vegetable gardens in the front room. Anything with a motor of some sort is exempt.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Put a rusty pickup on blocks in the front yard and grow your veggies in the bed.

012-728x485.jpg

Considering that tires suffer degradation from UV, figuring out a way to put it up on round cement blocks painted black would be a nice upgrade

- DSK

 

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Actually, don't you all realise that you don't own the property or abodes thereon.  You lease it from the man in the form of various taxes.  Proof - don't pay and they take it from you.

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1 hour ago, bletso said:

Actually, don't you all realise that you don't own the property or abodes thereon.  You lease it from the man in the form of various taxes.  Proof - don't pay and they take it from you.

I've never bought that argument.

How does anyone know that I own my property? Well, public records say so and if someone should disregard that and trespass, I can call the Sheriff, who will enforce my ownership.

Keepers of public records at the Clerk of Court's office have to be paid, as do cops. How? Taxes. And who should pay such taxes? Well, how about the property owners who benefit from those things?

So I'd say the fact that I pay property taxes is more proof of ownership, not proof of any lack of ownership.

13 hours ago, Raz&#x27;r said:

Which the city retained to deal with a scofflaw. And he remedied the situation after being sued. There is some cost there. As I said, the amount doesn’t seem reasonable but the scofflaw, by forcing the city to take action, owes some reimbursement. Maybe if he sued over the amount he’d have a better shot at relief.

The scofflaw in question got the receivership vacated by not being a scofflaw. Same for the 1969 building permit.

The amount that bothers you is the direct result of the conflict of interest I noted above: despite losing those legal fights, the law firm had every incentive to run up a yuge bill, which they did.

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9 minutes ago, Shambolic Tom said:

 

The amount that bothers you is the direct result of the conflict of interest I noted above: despite losing those legal fights, the law firm had every incentive to run up a yuge bill, which they did.

Yes, but that wasn't your argument.  Your argument was that the State Supremes let the judgement stand even though he remediated his offenses. I'm just pointing out that his offenses had a cost that was born by others to get him to perform said remediation.

If you want to go on about for-profit institutions running code-enforcement, why don't you start a thread about it, or hijack this one?

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  • 2 months later...

Illinois Might Legalize Gardening
 

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The Illinois Senate on Thursday overwhelmingly approved the Illinois Vegetable Garden Protection Act (HB 633), a bill that would preserve and protect the right of all Illinoisans to “cultivate vegetable gardens on their own property.” Introduced by Rep. Sonya Harper, the Act would protect the right to grow vegetables, as well as “herbs, fruits, flowers, pollinator plants, leafy greens, or other edible plants.”

HB 633 now heads to Gov. J.B. Pritzker, who has 60 days to act on the bill. For many Illinoisans, reform has been a long-time coming, as similar measures have come close to passage in prior sessions.

“I just want to grow my own food on my own property. In America, that really shouldn’t be such a controversial idea, and it certainly shouldn’t be illegal,” said Nicole Virgil, an Elmhurst resident whose efforts to grow vegetables in her rear yard have been repeatedly stymied by local officials. “I want to teach my kids the importance of self-sufficiency and self-reliance. I want them to understand and appreciate where food comes from.”

If passed, Illinois would become a national leader in the local food movement, becoming just the second state to provide express protection for the right to grow one’s own food. In 2019, Florida enacted the nation’s first statewide Vegetable Garden Protection Act, which sprouted from a years-long legal battle the Institute for Justice fought on behalf of a Miami Shores couple that was forced to uproot their 17-year old vegetable garden, after the city banned vegetable gardens in front yards. The Florida and Illinois legislative reforms are part of IJ’s National Food Freedom Initiative, which promotes the ability of individuals to produce, procure and consume the foods of their choice.

...

 

I hope the commies in Illinois are as successful as the ones down here!

 

 

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On 3/25/2021 at 8:30 AM, Raz&#x27;r said:

If you want to go on about for-profit institutions running code-enforcement, why don't you start a thread about it, or hijack this one?

That would interfere with yapping about guns.

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On 7/4/2019 at 4:08 AM, Excoded Tom said:

I grew up there and .... blah blah blah

 

You did not!!!

but your posts here wouldn’t  be as good if you had grown up 

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