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The cost of misinformation As an ILCA World Council member, I am alarmed at some "news stories" in the The Sailor's Voice (Facebook), specifically those posted by Jean-Pierre Kiekens. His comments

https://www.sailing.org/news/90895.php#.YHkHCy2ZNN0 Laser Radial sailor Nethra Kumanan has become the first ever female Indian sailor to qualify for the Olympic Games.

Philipp Buhl is the world champion of whatever anybody wants to call this boat, ILCA or Laser. Do not deny him of this incredible athletic feat or tarnish it with all this petty bullshit. 

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E6E-ILCA-Dinghies-840x560.jpg

Element 6 Evolution Approved as New Builder

The International Laser Class Association (ILCA) is pleased to announce that Element 6 Evolution Co Ltd (E6E) has been approved as a Builder of class-legal boats. With manufacturing based in Thailand, the company has successfully completed the detailed builder certification process and has received approval from both the ILCA and World Sailing technical departments to undertake production.

Expect to see the first ILCA class-legal boats by Element 6 Evolution in the market soon complete with World Sailing plaques — meaning these boats are legal for all class-sanctioned events including world and Olympic qualifiers. As with all ILCA approved builders, E6E boats are being manufactured from moulds made from ILCA master tooling and will be built in strict compliance with the class Build Manual standards and specifications and will be available for sale around the world.

About E6E

The three principals of the company Pom Green, John Higham and Pramote Indranoi worked together at Composite Marine International (CMI) in Thailand, a joint venture with Cobra for ten years, before selling their interests and later establishing Element 6 Evolution in 2015.

Pom Green – ‘At CMI amongst other boats we were building significant volumes of dinghies for RS, Nacra, AHPC and other brands using fairly traditional methods. Here, we have a state-of-the-art composites facility. We are building the Olympic Nacra 17, the Nacra 15 and 20, Goodall designs, foils for kiteboards, aerospace products and now the ILCA dinghy. For us, it is all about high quality.’

John Higham – ‘We have around 60 people in our team, 12 of them are engineers. We manufacture in a clean environment, with all areas having extraction and correct filtering, all laminate areas have temperature and humidity control to benefit the product as-well as the workforce. We use the latest technology where we can and are highly QA conscious, there is a lot of recording, documentation and many QC stages; all fabrics and cores are CNC machine cut for millimetre accuracy, automatically labelled, with overlaps lines marked, double weight checked etc. For us, it’s all about repeatability. Our ethos has always been to build the best quality and accuracy.’

The third partner Pramote Indranoi is an aerospace engineer, who focuses on running the technology for E6E. He added ‘Thailand now has a large composites production industry, and I am proud to say E6E is at the top of the ladder when it comes to precision, repeatability and quality. ‘

E6E has a consultant in manufacturing, events and sales, who knows the Laser-ILCA world very well. Chris Caldecoat, after 16 years as GM of Australian Laser builder PSA, brings considerable experience to E6E.

Caldecoat – ‘One of the key spin-offs of having a strong ILCA manufacturing presence here will mean a great deal of extra support for class events and the ability to run much larger events such as world titles, in Thailand and within the region.‘

Potential distributors should contact Chris Caldecoat at c.caldecoat@element6.asia

 

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2021/03/02/element-6-evolution-approved-as-new-builder/

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  • 2 weeks later...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(dinghy)

"The Laser is manufactured by different companies in different regions. They include LaserPerformance in Europe and the Americas, Performance Sailcraft Australia in Oceania, and Performance Sailcraft Japan in Asia. In 2019, the Laser's status as an Olympic class was reviewed, and retained on the condition that the class complied with the Olympic equipment manufacturers (OEM) policy, allowing any suitably qualified manufacturer to supply boats and class equipment on a Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory (FRAND) basis. The move would potentially see a significant increase in the number of Laser producers."

Is a little out of date now.

Anyone up to the task of updating it?

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Celebrating 50 years of the ILCA and the Laser - UKLA publishes Yearbook 2021

by Guy Noble 20 Mar 03:30 PDT

yysw310369.jpg UKLA 2021 ILCA Yearbook - 50 year anniversary © UKLA
 

UKLA Publishes a very smart Yearbook 2021 celebrating 50 years of the ILCA and the Laser. Articles by Tim Law, Alan Davis, Wendy Fitzpatrick, Jon Emmett and Steve Cockerill, Chris Gowers interviewed by Mark Lyttle and loads more...

As 2021 unfolds we are doing our best to shake off the Covid restrictions. Events planned for early in the season have been either cancelled, which is rather disappointing, or postponed, which gives us some hope. In spite of these setbacks UKLA has planned a packed season of high quality racing events that celebrate 50 years since the formation of ILCA (the International Laser Class Association). This year sees the re-naming of the Laser to the ILCA.

Read full article here:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/236107/?source=rss

There is an online version of the yearbook here:

https://issuu.com/ukla-sailing/docs/ukla_yearbook_for_online_7s?fbclid=IwAR1GlwxuAfgMpuYaALEdoEd-ptF6X1QqLbjfddJJnoZxSHDv66Sy-Ereh1o

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On 3/15/2021 at 3:32 PM, Bruce Hudson said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(dinghy)

"The Laser is manufactured by different companies in different regions. They include LaserPerformance in Europe and the Americas, Performance Sailcraft Australia in Oceania, and Performance Sailcraft Japan in Asia. In 2019, the Laser's status as an Olympic class was reviewed, and retained on the condition that the class complied with the Olympic equipment manufacturers (OEM) policy, allowing any suitably qualified manufacturer to supply boats and class equipment on a Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory (FRAND) basis. The move would potentially see a significant increase in the number of Laser producers."

Is a little out of date now.

Anyone up to the task of updating it?

Any thoughts on what it should be updated to?

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6 minutes ago, nroose said:

Any thoughts on what it should be updated to?

Statements like "The move would potentially see a significant increase in the number of Laser producers." are now out of date, they should now include the names of the producers.

"Since Lasers are registered by their hull number, and not their rig, swapping a boat between standard, radial and 4.7 classes is a simple matter of swapping the rig, including sails with a number that corresponds to the hull number."

There is a change to ILCA 5, ILCA 6 and ILCA 7 - this appears throughout.


The title needs to reflect the name change of the Kirby Dinghy.

It's likely that LP's, Bruce Kirby's and related pages need similar updates. 

(I'm time poor right now, so it is likely there are more changes that I haven't mentioned).

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:



There is a change to ILCA 5, ILCA 6 and ILCA 7 - this appears throughout.

 

Don't you mean ILCA 4, ILCA 6 and ILCA 7?

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12 hours ago, nroose said:

Any thoughts on what it should be updated to?

Probably makes sense to create a new entry for the ILCA Dinghy.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Probably makes sense to create a new entry for the ILCA Dinghy.

I thought about that too... but that means repeating most (all?) of what is there for the Laser entry. The history doesn't change, just the name.

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21 hours ago, Bill5 said:

It doesn't appear to be properly set up yet, rather ILCA collects your contact details with the promise of more information.

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

It doesn't appear to be properly set up yet, rather ILCA collects your contact details with the promise of more information.

Standard marketing tactic to build an email list. I expect they will use it to solicit more sailors to become members of ILCA, which is the best way to finance a class association. Good luck to them.

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:

Standard marketing tactic to build an email list. I expect they will use it to solicit more sailors to become members of ILCA, which is the best way to finance a class association.  super duper super secret vacays to super duper super secret destinations  for the class officials.  Good luck to them.

FIFY

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18 hours ago, tillerman said:

Standard marketing tactic to build an email list. I expect they will use it to solicit more sailors to become members of ILCA, which is the best way to finance a class association. Good luck to them.

When I came up with the idea to celebrate the class' 50th, Ian's legacy and all the enjoyment so many people have had racing that little boat, and then set up a great committee team in all the regions to plan the event, well, you guy have nailed exactly why I wanted to do it. Yes, it was to build an email list and solicit more sailors and fund my vacations.  FFS guys.

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5 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

When I came up with the idea to celebrate the class' 50th, Ian's legacy and all the enjoyment so many people have had racing that little boat, and then set up a great committee team in all the regions to plan the event, well, you guy have nailed exactly why I wanted to do it. Yes, it was to build an email list and solicit more sailors and fund my vacations.  FFS guys.

You forgot to mention that your super secret vacations are so secret that you have them in your basement, alone.

From the site:

Quote

This year’s 50th anniversary is about so much more than a boat. Together we will celebrate dedicated sailors and supporters filled with passion for this small sailboat that started out simply as Ian Bruce’s idea to create a “car topper” dinghy. From this moment of inspiration and a subsequent call to friend Bruce Kirby, who famously sketched the boat’s lines and sail plan on a notepad, came the greatest sailboat in the history of one-design racing.

Sailors all over the globe are gearing up for a celebration that will culminate in a world-wide day of sailing on September 11, 2021. Individuals, clubs and organizations are invited to plan events around this day and the options — regattas, fun rabbit start races or just a solo sail — are endless.

To support the events, ILCA is launching a website dedicated to helping groups facilitate planning and implementation, and for sailors to share stories and pictures of their own great moments and memories. Sailors will be able to register on the site and keep updated on all the world-wide ILCA 50th celebration news. And don’t miss your opportunity to promote your passion with a 50th anniversary T-shirt.

ILCA hopes that by giving sailors myriad ways to enjoy this milestone, sailors of all ages, nationalities, and genders will come out to sail on September 11th, creating the largest community gathering of sailors across the world.

Want to learn more? Go to http://www.ilca50.com/ to find your regional representative, links to registration, goods and more!

 

So we are ramping up to a series of events on September 11, none are yet listed.

(Good to see that EU and NA regional sites appear up to date with events in spite of the pandemic. It is understandable that Central and South America was last updated in 2020 as they are still being hammered. It is less understandable that Oceania hasn't had its events listings updated since 2020 considering we are relatively pandemic free.)

The UKLA have their published annual which is awesome.

There will be merchandise.

Is not a problem that so little has been set up, there is some 5 months until September. 

This is Sailing Anarchy where tearing stuff down is routine - which in my view is boring. Time to be a rebel and be constructive? After all, this is the Absolutely Positively Laser thread.

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On 4/3/2021 at 4:17 PM, tillerman said:

Standard marketing tactic to build an email list. I expect they will use it to solicit more sailors to become members of ILCA, which is the best way to finance a class association. Good luck to them.

Just to be clear @Bruce Hudson and @aroy210677, when I posted the item quoted above, it was meant as an entirely positive comment.  I did think that gathering email addresses could be used as part of a membership drive, which would surely be a good thing? In my mind, marketing the class and soliciting more people to become members of the class are totally appropriate and commendable activities for class leadership, and there is no reason why they shouldn't be embedded in other class activities.

The snarky remark about vacations was made by another anarchist in one of those "meant to be humorous" FIFY edits of my post. I am pretty sure that he meant it as sarcasm - mocking a certain other anarchist who spreads conspiracy theories about hidden fees financing vacations etc. etc. Maybe that other guy is being sarcastic too? Sometimes I lose track of how many levels of sarcasm are going on.

Anyway, I wish ILCA and all the constituent regional and national Laser associations all the best with this celebration.

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3 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Just to be clear @Bruce Hudson and @aroy210677, when I posted the item quoted above, it was meant as an entirely positive comment.  I did think that gathering email addresses could be used as part of a membership drive, which would surely be a good thing? In my mind, marketing the class and soliciting more people to become members of the class are totally appropriate and commendable activities for class leadership, and there is no reason why they shouldn't be embedded in other class activities.

The snarky remark about vacations was made by another anarchist in one of those "meant to be humorous" FIFY edits of my post. I am pretty sure that he meant it as sarcasm - mocking a certain other anarchist who spreads conspiracy theories about hidden fees financing vacations etc. etc. Maybe that other guy is being sarcastic too? Sometimes I lose track of how many levels of sarcasm are going on.

Anyway, I wish ILCA and all the constituent regional and national Laser associations all the best with this celebration.

Unfortunately for you, your posts are seen in the context of many other posts - so while the intention to be positive, there is much rebuilding for you to do. :) 

By the way, your assumption that the purpose is primarily a membership drive is incorrect. 

From the proposal document for the event:

Quote

We could have a more extensive “merchandise”/ ordering page on our web site, with proceeds going to youth sailing in developing nations (?)

It is definitely celebratory in nature.

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11 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

When I came up with the idea to celebrate the class' 50th, Ian's legacy and all the enjoyment so many people have had racing that little boat, and then set up a great committee team in all the regions to plan the event, well, you guy have nailed exactly why I wanted to do it. Yes, it was to build an email list and solicit more sailors and fund my vacations.  FFS guys.

The  FIFY vacay comments is always  a goof on the troll and the socks on this site that spew false information and revisionist history 

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The FIFY thing drives me crazy and is a terrible concept. If you disagree with what I say or wish I'd said something different write your own b******y words, don't misquote me. There's enough fake news, lies and distortion on the net already without putting forged words in other peoples mouths and calling it humour. And yes, I'm well aware that some **** is going to do exactly the same to this post. Congratulations sunshine, you've demonstrated you have the mental outlook of a nine year old.

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made a rare visit to this thread today: 


If life is enhanced by your personal pleasure, it is good to see the bitch artists have found one / or invented new excuses to bitch!! 
 

Too bad none of you had sufficient interest in sailboat racing or hanging out with old friends last weekend to attend a regatta. 
 

Enjoy  your “positive” thread. I will be cleaning up after another great regatta and getting ready for another. 

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38 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I will be cleaning up after another great regatta and getting ready for another. 

Number of entries:
Standard / ILCA7: 32
Radial / ILCA6: 14
4.7 / ILCA4: 8

Pictures?

Were there any Ovington, PSA et al boats in attendance? (There seemed to be only two newish boats 217510 and 218118.)

How about any on the new, non compliant LP boats? 

Here's the results: http://schrothfiberglass.com/2021-Easter-Regatta-Results.pdf

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Junior Pan American Games

The first-ever Junior Pan American Games is set to take place in 2021 on September 9-19 in Cali, Colombia. This international multi-sport event is for athletes in the Americas aged 18 to 23. Athletes from 41 countries will participate in this first edition. The Sailing events will be held over three days on September 16-18, 2021.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2021/04/07/usa-trials-for-junior-pan-am-games/

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18 minutes ago, tillerman said:

From the website above:

"The Regatta will be organised by the host venue. All sailors must ensure that they are insured with a current and valid third party liability insurance that includes a minimum cover of €1,500,000 (1.5 million Euros or the equivalent in another currency) per Event."

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7 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

From the website above:

"The Regatta will be organised by the host venue. All sailors must ensure that they are insured with a current and valid third party liability insurance that includes a minimum cover of €1,500,000 (1.5 million Euros or the equivalent in another currency) per Event."

I'm unclear as to what the issue is with this requirement?

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2 minutes ago, Metoxi said:

I'm unclear as to what the issue is with this requirement?

Is it normal? I've never been aware of such a requirement previously.

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Is it normal? I've never been aware of such a requirement previously.

In the UK, can't speak for the Netherlands, all clubs I've been a member of require insurance. Just checked my policy and that has third party liability up to £5,000,000 included, premium (for an rs300 with Noble Marine) is £130 per annum.

So yes in the UK, and I would imagine the EU, insurance is normal. :)

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36 minutes ago, Metoxi said:

In the UK, can't speak for the Netherlands, all clubs I've been a member of require insurance. Just checked my policy and that has third party liability up to £5,000,000 included, premium (for an rs300 with Noble Marine) is £130 per annum.

So yes in the UK, and I would imagine the EU, insurance is normal. :)

It isn't a requirement in any of the NZ clubs I have been a member of (at least so that I know), and never come up when I have sailed in other countries. I'd guess that I've only ever insured about half the boats I've owned (various classes) - some were just practice boats, and a few were for less than a season.

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33 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

It isn't a requirement in any of the NZ clubs I have been a member of (at least so that I know), and never come up when I have sailed in other countries. I'd guess that I've only ever insured about half the boats I've owned (various classes) - some were just practice boats, and a few were for less than a season.

I wouldn't want to race against uninsured competitors in organised events and would be surprised if insurance isn't mandatory in some countries for these.

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3 hours ago, Metoxi said:

I wouldn't want to race against uninsured competitors in organised events and would be surprised if insurance isn't mandatory in some countries for these.

Then you are likely to be surprised.

It is the same in NZ for all vehicle insurance, it is not mandatory. I repeat that so I am crystal clear, while desirable, vehicle insurance is not mandatory in NZ. (Having the freedom to not insure is a curious thing - of course we are never free from consequence.)

I believe in having insurance, and will arrange insurance within minutes (and before driving) a new vehicle. 

While we are on the topic, there is no boat registration in NZ. (Though there is for most vehicles and trailers, there are exemptions.)

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4 hours ago, Metoxi said:

I wouldn't want to race against uninsured competitors in organised events and would be surprised if insurance isn't mandatory in some countries for these.

It is absolutely normal in the uk for club racing.  It's also expected for visiting racers for regional,  national and international events.  I don't think I've been to a Euros or Worlds that didn't have an insurance requirement in the NoR!

Cheers, 

              W.

 

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Requiring liability insurance has been standard for high-level regattas for more than ten years.  I had to get it for a regatta in Canada.  I went through a US Sailing sponsor, I think the Gowrie Group?  Fortunately their standard policy was valid in Canada.  Not sure what I would have to do if I traveled to Europe for a regatta.

I've never seen it required for a local or district level regatta.  Not saying it isn't a good idea, just not required.  You never know when your Laser might get run over by a ferry.

It's scary that NZ doesn't have mandatory liability insurance laws for drivers.

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5 minutes ago, torrid said:

Requiring liability insurance has been standard for high-level regattas for more than ten years.  I had to get it for a regatta in Canada.  I went through a US Sailing sponsor, I think the Gowrie Group?  Fortunately their standard policy was valid in Canada.  Not sure what I would have to do if I traveled to Europe for a regatta.

Last time I sailed a regatta in Europe was an RS Aero regatta on Lake Garda. It was all arranged by the class that the insurance was included in the charter fee. Didn't have to do anything special to have the liability insurance required by the NOR.

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7 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Last time I sailed a regatta in Europe was an RS Aero regatta on Lake Garda. It was all arranged by the class that the insurance was included in the charter fee. Didn't have to do anything special to have the liability insurance required by the NOR.

I think whether it's in the NOR or not it's irresponsible to race without insurance.

Regarding the Netherlands Laser event which started the discussion I read it as a reminder to competitors to have insurance, not a scam or hidden fee as some seem to think. :)

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19 minutes ago, Metoxi said:

I think whether it's in the NOR or not it's irresponsible to race without insurance.

Then get insurance, if you feel that way. (Basically, that's why I do.)

In a free society, doesn't one has the 'right' to be irresponsible?

Note that NZ is a bit different when it comes to insurance.

Everyone, including visitors, is covered in several ways:

  • Medical costs are covered by our universal healthcare, and additionally with our ACC insurance - a national insurance which means everyone in NZ, including visitors, is covered.
  • It is standard practice for clubs and event holders to have liability insurance (but not mandatory).

Note: "In New Zealand, except in exceptional circumstances, people cannot sue others for personal injury compensation, so here car insurance is about fixing your own car, or other people’s cars, should you be in an accident."

Same with boating accidents.

In the event of a collision or event resulting in damage, it is the property owners responsibility to insure. Your insurance pays out damage you cause or recieve. So what does it matter you if someone else takes the risk?

Here's an article earlier this year which discusses auto insurance (which I quoted above):
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123891485/majority-want-compulsory-car-insurance-but-the-case-for-it-is-weak

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1 hour ago, torrid said:

It's scary that NZ doesn't have mandatory liability insurance laws for drivers.

That's because through legislation, and ACC, personal liability in New Zealand is already limited.

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39 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

What happens if you are broad reaching on port in your ILCA at 15kts  and you sail into the side of a starboard tack International 14, causing £10k of damage to the 14 and life long spinal injuries to the helm causing him to need expensive medical treatment, adaptations to his house and to quit work? 

Scenario 1

Let's say the International 14 is insured, a NZder (Let's say it the injured is Peter B), the ILCA sailor is not insured (and is also a NZder), and it is in New Zealand.

  1. The owner of the Int. 14 gets paid out by their insurance company in accordance with their policy.
  2. They get medical treatment paid for by NZ's universal healthcare and via ACC, including up to 80% of his lost income and modifications to his house. Also a payout for a special car is made.
  3. The insurance companies attempt to recover property damage costs from the uninsured, which may include bankrupting them.
  4. The country mourns the loss of future Olympic medals, championships and injury to a damn fine bloke.

Scenario 2

Let's say the International 14 is insured, from the US (Let's say it the injured is 'Don'), the ILCA sailor is not insured (a NZder), and it is in New Zealand.

  1. The owner of the Int. 14 gets paid out by their insurance company in accordance with their policy.
  2. They get medical treatment in NZ paid for by NZ's universal healthcare and via ACC.
  3. Their insurance covers their loss of income and medical costs (to the limit of their policy) once they return home to the US.
  4. The insurance companies attempt to recover property damage costs from the uninsured, which may include bankrupting them.
  5. Worldwide people are 'in mourning' as Don will never play golf again, nor run for public office.

I am sure there are other scenarios. Both scenarios are the same no matter if the ILCA sailor is a NZder or from overseas, except suing for damages may be a little different.

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14 hours ago, sosoomii said:

What happens if you are broad reaching on port in your ILCA at 15kts  and you sail into the side of a starboard tack International 14, causing £10k of damage to the 14 and life long spinal injuries to the helm causing him to need expensive medical treatment, adaptations to his house and to quit work? 

An ILCA can't go that fast. You need a Laser for that!!

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11 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Thanks Bruce. What about the scenario where the I14 isn’t insured?  Can they get any compensation from the uninsured ILCA sailor or from the state?

Personal injury is covered by the state.

If the ILCA was at fault (which it seems to be in your scenario), then the I14 owner can sue the ILCA owner for damages, if they can't reach a settlement.

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But personal injury is not covered by the state in most country’s in Europe which is why every sailor that is a member of a sailing club in the uk has to have insurance . 

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1 hour ago, Xeon said:

But personal injury is not covered by the state in most country’s in Europe which is why every sailor that is a member of a sailing club in the uk has to have insurance . 

Yes, all good. NZ has a different insurance situation for sure.

I think I have raced club races 'without insurance', but not higher level races. Interesting me questioning myself with the use of 'without insurance' as technically, for personal liability, and personal injury, everyone in New Zealand (including overseas visitors) is already covered.

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Thanks Tillerman for posting 'The Laser Class' events. 

For interest, I wanted to count the number of events that 'The Laser Class' have listed - it is excellent that they have managed to make a few, but unfortunately their website wasn't working.

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15 minutes ago, tillerman said:

1124990175_ScreenShot2021-04-30at4_01_08PM.thumb.png.037cf560fef30a7cd208aed29959aa9e.png

Hah! Cheap, knock off ILCA’s! Deep, deep discount prices. Limited time offer - builder near banko. Shit-built boats trading off a great name. Wess won’t even buy one. Buy an Ovington ILCA and don’t fall for this scandal!! 

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25 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Hah! Cheap, knock off ILCA’s! Deep, deep discount prices. Limited time offer - builder near banko. Shit-built boats trading off a great name. Wess won’t even buy one. Buy an Ovington ILCA and don’t fall for this scandal!! 

"Knock-off?" Really?

LaserPerformance was an ILCA approved Laser builder for many years before Ovington and the other new builders started making Laser clones under the ILCA brand.

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6 minutes ago, tillerman said:

"Knock-off?" Really?

LaserPerformance was an ILCA approved Laser builder for many years before Ovington and the other new builders started making Laser clones under the ILCA brand.

Ya...bit of fun. I guess I should have put this:D:D:P:Dto avoid confusion 

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9 minutes ago, tillerman said:

"Knock-off?" Really?

LaserPerformance was an ILCA approved Laser builder for many years before Ovington and the other new builders started making Laser clones under the ILCA brand.

Is LP still building to the original builder manual?

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28 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Is LP still building to the original builder manual?

The 1971 builder manual?

Is anybody still building to that?

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2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

The 1971 builder manual?

Is anybody still building to that?

So, you've got a "No true scotsman" problem.

Lovely, good for you guys. 

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21 minutes ago, Xeon said:

Nobody knows :D

Nobody knows :D

lol but what we know is LPE is  a s@@t run company .

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

So, you've got a "No true scotsman" problem.

 

I had to look that one up.

No true Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect their universal generalization from a counterexample in an ad hoc fashion by tautologically excluding the counterexample.  Rather than abandoning the mistaken universal generalization or providing evidence that would disqualify the counterexample, this fallacy involves offering a modified generalization to definitionally exclude the desired specific case and counterexamples like it by appeal to rhetoric as opposed to an objective criterion.

So now you know.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

I had to look that one up.

No true Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect their universal generalization from a counterexample in an ad hoc fashion by tautologically excluding the counterexample.  Rather than abandoning the mistaken universal generalization or providing evidence that would disqualify the counterexample, this fallacy involves offering a modified generalization to definitionally exclude the desired specific case and counterexamples like it by appeal to rhetoric as opposed to an objective criterion.

So now you know.

Sounds kind of like counting votes in Arizona.

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9 hours ago, Xeon said:

Nobody knows :D

We know that LP (or whatever they now call themselves) is not building to the ILCA approved builder's manual. :)  

A small part of the builder's manual is the approval process. Also, it seems that they have different composite spars, plus one of the factors in their losing their official ILCA building status was issues with their building to standard.

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On 5/1/2021 at 8:06 AM, Bruce Hudson said:

 plus one of the factors in their losing their official ILCA building status was issues with their building to standard.

Could you clarify that? I haven't heard any allegations that they weren't building to the builders manual, only that they had refused the inspections which were intended to verify that they were. There's so much rumour and fake news about it is useful to try and be as precise as possible.

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Clarity has been pretty elusive around the Laser/ILCA in recent years.

The ILCA website doesn't make it prominently clear how to buy a class legal new boat. You have to navigate the small print and find a certified builder, and it seems that there are none in the US.

And if you search for how/where to buy a laser sailboat, LP is there with a really nice website and great prices.

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1 hour ago, nroose said:

Clarity has been pretty elusive around the Laser/ILCA in recent years.

The ILCA website doesn't make it prominently clear how to buy a class legal new boat. You have to navigate the small print and find a certified builder, and it seems that there are none in the US.

And if you search for how/where to buy a laser sailboat, LP is there with a really nice website and great prices.

There is no manufacturing of Laser/ILCAs in the US. There has not been for a while but different dealers stock ILCA's from different manufacturers from overseas. You have to ask for a boat with a WS plaque and then you know if is class legal.  I agree it is hard to find who the dealers are because there websites are all so out of date.

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20 hours ago, nroose said:

Clarity has been pretty elusive around the Laser/ILCA in recent years. - Yeah- I think this has been due to some early on "misfires" with information being released too early that created the need for retractions.  However, that appears to have been cleaned up during the last 6 months

The ILCA website doesn't make it prominently clear how to buy a class legal new boat. You have to navigate the small print and find a certified builder, and it seems that there are none in the US.  Admittedly true- The new website development has been painfully slow.  However, class members get a quarterly mag and the dealers are buying ads.  There are 5 dealers advertising in NA and currently 4 or the 8 new builders are getting boats into the US and CN.

 

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On 5/2/2021 at 9:24 AM, JimC said:

Could you clarify that? I haven't heard any allegations that they weren't building to the builders manual, only that they had refused the inspections which were intended to verify that they were. There's so much rumour and fake news about it is useful to try and be as precise as possible.

By not allowing for ILCA inspections they were not "building to standard" as the inspections are a required part of being a builder.

Now they were having issues delivering complete boats.  Missing spars, blades and or non-class legal sails.  

There were also quality finish related complaints.  

Those are facts.

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6 hours ago, RobbieB said:

By not allowing for ILCA inspections they were not "building to standard" as the inspections are a required part of being a builder.

Now they were having issues delivering complete boats.  Missing spars, blades and or non-class legal sails.  

There were also quality finish related complaints.  

Those are facts.

What does, "Now they were... " mean?

 

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