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7 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The voting system is one thing. How it works differs from region to region.

In some regions, you belong to the MNA, and there isn't a national Laser association to belong to. The MNA sends the ILCA names, but not all.

So there are people who sail Lasers, and don't know whether their votes will count.

(Have I got that right @drLaser??)

I must have missed this...

How the general voting system of ILCA affects different Districts differently is of interest to me.  

Some factual corrections: Like you, I also thought that the MNA or the District Laser Class Association would be sending membership names to ILCA. However, the information flow is in the reverse direction. After corresponding with ILCA, and after listening to Hugh in the Class Meeting during the Radial Worlds in Japan, I now know that member names will not be sent from Districts to ILCA. Instead, ILCA will send names of the voters to the Districts.

The Districts will check if the voter is really a Class member or not.

This has a strategic advantage, and a tactical disadvantage.

The tactical disadvantage is that it will take some time after July 31, 2019 to get the confirmations and the rejections from the Districts. The August 1 deadline of WS will clearly not be met. Apparently, that's not such a tight deadline. Apparently, WS shows some flexibility here, just in case the "YES" camp wins.

The strategic advantage relates to the problem you were pointing out - that the MNA, if they were to send a list of members to ILCA, would "send names, but not all." First of all, why not all? Briefly, because of "corruption"! Many of the ILCA Districts are not reporting to ILCA their true membership numbers. Many Districts are reporting only the minimum number of members they need to declare to claim a spot at the Olympics. Most districts repeatedly report exactly the same number of members year after year. And most districts report their membership numbers in multiples of 10 or 100! It is obvious that they are not being truthful.

I'm privy to some of the TUR data. Turkey District (which does not have a Class Association but a "Federation" that controls all sailing in the MNA) has reported 250, 270, 270, 300, 300, 300, 200, 200, 100, and 100 members between 2009 and 2018, respectively. You would think that Laser racing is going down the drain in TUR following 2014. It's not. The number of Laser sailors and the number of Laser hulls that could form "Fleets" is higher than ever before. We just report lower and lower numbers to ILCA, to minimize the dues that need to be paid to ILCA.

What are the real numbers? At my last count, there were more than 250 distinct ranked Laser racers (ranked based on some national events). Other than these ranked Laser racers, there is probably an additional 30% (75 more) who regularly race but do not attend the ranked events. In addition, I can guess that there may be another 50 non-racers (cruisers) nation-wide. All of these 325 (250+75) racers and possibly very few of the cruisers are dues-paid members of the "Federation", and hence must be considered ILCA members (if the Federation were transferring their ILCA dues to ILCA). So, instead of transparently declaring 325+ Laser Class members, TUR declares just 100.

So, let me now get back to that strategic advantage I was referring to: If ILCA asked the TUR District to send the names of the "members", the Turkish MNA would have to somehow (randomly?) select 100 names to list out of the 325+. Some Laser racers who voted might not be on the list, and their votes would go to waste. Their votes would be disenfranchised. I would most probably be in that group, myself, because I don't attend out-of-town events and hence, I'm not ranked. 

By not asking for the names of the District members, by sending the Districts the names of the voters instead, the Class is effectively giving an opportunity to each District to confirm all valid votes in their own District, but up to the membership number declared to ILCA. In the example of TUR, if the MNA sent a (random) list of 100 members to ILCA, maybe only 31 (100 * 100/325) of them would be among the voters. With ILCA sending the names of the voters to TUR, even if 150 or 300 Turkish (true) members voted, we know that the votes of 100 of them will count. Thus, we will get 100 valid votes from TUR rather than possibly just 31.

The same holds for all Districts which (corruptly) under-report their number of members. And out of all 119 currently active ILCA Districts (excluding the ILCA N.A. Region which has its own Districts), I would venture to say that only few (less than 40) Districts report their number of members honestly. (I believe there are no reporting problems in N.A.)

Yes, there are people who race Lasers, and who don't know whether their votes will count a few days from now.

Why do we face this? Because given the state of things, ILCA can't do much else than tolerating Worldwide dishonesty. I happen to believe that if ILCA required each District to actually set up a Constitutional Laser district association (instead of just a national "Federation" or "Sailing Association" that does not care about any particular dinghy class), such corruption would be reduced. Out of the 40 Districts which report their numbers truthfully, probably 3/4 would be Districts with independent Laser Class Associations.

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The bottom line is that each vote received over 100 in Turkey will be disenfranchised.

Even the potential for one vote to not be counted is in my mind offensive. Consequently, I support any moves for improvements.

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4 hours ago, JimC said:

What the implications of all that are I couldn't hope to guess. I also wonder whether this change affects the mesh of contracts that govern Laser building rights, but again I have not the slightest idea.

I personally think their headquarters should be in Europe, where the majority of Laser Sailors reside.

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On 7/24/2019 at 9:19 AM, Bruce Hudson said:

While this member could be 'the exception' - I can confirm there is no information to be found on the French Laser Assn website or FB page on the rule change.

(Come on Jean Luc!!! This just makes you look bad.)

This message has inspired me to increase my efforts.

....and just 10 hours later, the first French Laser Association (AFL) Facebook post on the topic of Laser politics appeared.

The was a link to the terrible piece by Jean-Pierre Kiekens on fake Lasers.

image.png.9ba419e21f5c549e3111817e89a50a1f.png

(I actually think the piece helps the 'yes' vote, it is that bad. The article doesn't present a proper argument, rather it is a rant based on the notion that the logo creates fake Lasers - very little to do with the actual rule change).

Finally, I have found dissent in France. (Phew). 

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9 hours ago, dgmckim said:

I personally think their headquarters should be in Europe, where the majority of Laser Sailors reside.

And I personally think that where the majority of the Laser Sailors reside is irrelevant in determining the location of ILCA headquarters.

What's important is what the majority of the Laser Sailors (or their representatives) think or vote for. Constitutionally, our sailors elect the District Chairpersons. The District Chairpersons elect the Regional Chairpersons. The Regional Chairpersons, along with the Past President of the World Council, the Executive Secretary and two representative of the Advisory Council, form the World Council, and the World Council elects the ILCA President and Vice President. The WC also also appoints the Executive Secretary, since the WC is the body that will have to work with the Executive Secretary day in, day out. (That's why the members do not elect the Executive Secretary from among a set of candidates with a direct vote of the membership.)

I presume here there is some (unexplained) logical relation between the "Headquarters of the Association" and the location of the Executive Secretary who must manage the day-to-day affairs of the Association.

I agree that it is wrong to constitutionally fix the Headquarters of ILCA in Austin, Texas, USA. I would suggest that, if possible, we should find legal means of allowing the location of the Executive Secretary in office to automatically re-define the effective location of the Headquarters of the Association. However, the WC can't deliberate and decide to appoint, say, a Japanese Executive Secretary and then expect that Japanese Exec Secretary to move to a different continent (Europe), country or even city other than where (s)he normally resides just because the majority of the "customers" are in a particular continent, country or city. Why not?

Such a policy is totally undemocratic as well as unwise, since it prevents the candidacy as well as the selection of a qualified person other than a European from being appointed as an Executive Secretary. It is also dangerous, as even though the WC may prefer appointing the non-European X as the Executive Secretary, it may be forced to appoint a Jean-Luc Michon (with poor communication and reasoning skills) who may be one of the European candidates.

Maybe that's what LPE had in mind. 

If we can divorce in our minds the location of the Headquarters from the location of the Executive Secretary... then the Headquarters can even be located at the home address of Jean-Luc, for all I care. Although I doubt he would forward all incoming mail.

 

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4 hours ago, drLaser said:

And I personally think that where the majority of the Laser Sailors reside is irrelevant in determining the location of ILCA headquarters.

i was making a point about the irony one of LP's consistent demands, that the ILCA that they move back to Europe, while they are folding their company and moving it into an American corporation.

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Are the majority of Laser sailors in Europe, or just the majority of ILCA members?

As I understand it, European club culture is that all club racing sailors will become local class association members and thus ILCA members by default. Whereas in other parts of the world, it's typical to not join any class association unless you're racing at class sanctioned regatta events.

The European butts-on-lasers to ILCA member ratio is quite high; the rest of the world butts-on-lasers to ILCA members ratio is quite low.

If course, as far as ILCA is concerned, you're not a Laser sailor unless you're a class member. But it would be interesting to know whether Europe really does have the most butts-on-lasers, or just the most class members.

Goat - not a class member

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The CEO of any global organization needs to have strong cross-cultural skills and to spend a big chunk of his or her time traveling to meet stakeholders all around the world. The Executive Secretary of ILCA is no exception. It really doesn't matter where he or she lives.

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22 minutes ago, OneGoat said:

Are the majority of Laser sailors in Europe, or just the majority of ILCA members?

As I understand it, European club culture is that all club racing sailors will become local class association members and thus ILCA members by default. Whereas in other parts of the world, it's typical to not join any class association unless you're racing at class sanctioned regatta events.

The European butts-on-lasers to ILCA member ratio is quite high; the rest of the world butts-on-lasers to ILCA members ratio is quite low.

If course, as far as ILCA is concerned, you're not a Laser sailor unless you're a class member. But it would be interesting to know whether Europe really does have the most butts-on-lasers, or just the most class members.

Goat - not a class member

I can only tell you for germany. Most Laser regattas are class sanctioned events. I only know very few regattas that are outside of the official class calendar. All regattas count for the german ranking list. Regattas have different factors, if you win a small local regatta you will get less points than for winning the worlds. Qualifications for championships is also done via these ranking lists. To become listed in the ranking list you need to be a member of the class. Without class membership you normally may not start, but many atill do. There is of course a separate list for 4.7, Radial youth, Radial female, Radial open, Standard, Masters etc. It might be that masters are also listed in standard, so you propably can't just add all numbers if all ranking lists. There are "gleitende" ranking lists, qualifications lists for qualification to take part at the nationals and year lists.. In the first lists all sailers are listed, even if they not yet have taken part in the minimum of 9 races =  3 Regattas, these are marked in orange. Non class members get listed without name in red. In the years end ranking lists only sailers with the minimum of 9 races get listed. We have an small club level racing scene with 8 small inland clubs at small lakes max 80km apart. 6 regattas per year, different classes. Laser is the strongest with ca 25-30 different sailers taking part. Few are members of the class most are not. Few also take part at official class regattas. Don't know how many regattas like this exist in germany. So there are quite some sailers that are not class members, but there are surely some members that don't race (anymore), but stay in the class to support it.  I believe only few club level sailers are members of the class. If you look at the "gleitende Ranglisten" you can see a lot of nonmembers. 

http://www.seglerinfo.de/ranglisten/Laser/index_laser.shtml

http://www.seglerinfo.de/ranglisten/Laser/index_master.shtml

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6 hours ago, drLaser said:

I presume here there is some (unexplained) logical relation between the "Headquarters of the Association" and the location of the Executive Secretary who must manage the day-to-day affairs of the Association.

I agree that it is wrong to constitutionally fix the Headquarters of ILCA in Austin, Texas, USA. 

I suggest you folks are reading far too much into the current wording of the constitution. I know for our friends the wrong side of the pond their constitution appears to be a semi sacred document that they are trained from an early age to treat with the utmost seriousness, but from the Brit POV a constitution (and we don't even have one for the government) is just another working document to be amended as required.

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2 hours ago, dgmckim said:

i was making a point about the irony one of LP's consistent demands

I totally missed the irony. Just went clear over my head! :D

Maybe I can pretend that I did not miss it, but used the opportunity to address that nonsensical LPE  demand. :)

 

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"At World Sailing’s Mid-Year Meeting the answer was made quite clear: If the class fails to meet World Sailing’s Olympic Equipment Policy by the August 1 deadline then it will be removed from consideration for the Olympics in 2024 and beyond."

In bulletin EC 572 EurILCA say:

"... we want to sustain as Olympic equipment as long as sailing is an Olympic sport."

To deliver the express wishes of EurILCA, vote yes to the proposed rule change.

EurILCA EC-573.pdf

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

world Sailing is threatening to not take million$ If we sailors fail to insist our suppliers follow World Sailing’s dictated business model 

Agreed. But not relevant.

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News on FB german Laser class:

 

Nachricht vom ehemaligen ILCA-Präsidenten Heini Wellmann an alle europäischen Klassenvereinigungen

Auch Heini Wellmann hat in der noch bis Ende des Monats laufenden Abstimmung über die Änderung der Klassenregeln mit "NEIN" gestimmt und teilt uns hier seine Gründe mit:

Dear European District Chairmen,
There is currently (until August 1st) a very important vote going on regarding the future of the Laser. It can be accessed through http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/07/01/voting-now-open-for-proposed-2019-ilca-rule-change/
It proposes to eliminate the trademark “Laser” in the ILCA Class rules.
This is to let you know that I have voted NO for the following reasons:
• The first reason given by the ILCA Management to vote yes is: “To Make sure that our class will remain in the Olympics.”. This is not correct. The proposal has nothing to do with the Laser Standard and the Laser Radial remaining an Olympic class. It simply proposes to eliminate the trademark “Laser” in the rules and might in the long term even lead to the opposite – namely the elimination from the Olympics.
• The second reason given “Ensure that class-legal equipment is available in ALL parts of the world” is also not correct. Class legal equipment is already today available in all parts of the world.
• The third reason “Give control of our class to the sailors, not the commercial parties” is misleading: the Laser Construction Manual Agreement (LCMA) governs and assures that the Laser remains a factory controlled one design boat. The parties to the LCMA are all the builders and ILCA. Any change in the agreement must be taken unanimously by all parties as of article 5.1. So ILCA and all builders control together the LCMA. This “veto right” already gives ILCA enough control of the class. No rule change is necessary for that.
In summary: there are no valid reasons for this rule-change.
Personally, I want to keep the LASER as the leading one design single handed boat and in particular its name LASER. 
With best regards.
Heini Wellmann
ILCA World Council member as Past President
heini@hmwellmann.ch

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And Andy Roys comment to this:

As you well know, Heini, and as is clear in the wording, the  proposed rule change does NOT “eliminate the trademark “Laser” in the rules”, but rather it is to remove the requirement for Builders to be licensed by Laser trademark owners.

What I don't understand Andy, 

Heini said this 

1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

The first reason given by the ILCA Management to vote yes is: “To Make sure that our class will remain in the Olympics.”. This is not correct. The

 

Why don't you comment on this? Thought this was the reason for the vote? Why does Heini believe that this is not correct? 

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4 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Why don't you comment on this? Thought this was the reason for the vote? Why does Heini believe that this is not correct? 

Agreed.

I'm not on the World Council and am hugely disappointed to read what Heini wrote. It offers no solid argument to vote no, rather promotes what has been dealt with already in public. I saw it posted as well - and notice that voices of dissent are being deleted.

I imagine that Andy Roy's disappointment to read what Heini wrote to be several times mine.

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6 hours ago, jgh66 said:

And Andy Roys comment to this:

As you well know, Heini, and as is clear in the wording, the  proposed rule change does NOT “eliminate the trademark “Laser” in the rules”, but rather it is to remove the requirement for Builders to be licensed by Laser trademark owners.

What I don't understand Andy, 

Heini said this 

 

Why don't you comment on this? Thought this was the reason for the vote? Why does Heini believe that this is not correct? 

The entire quote of Heini's first point is:

Quote

The first reason given by the ILCA Management to vote yes is: “To Make sure that our class will remain in the Olympics.”. This is not correct. The proposal has nothing to do with the Laser Standard and the Laser Radial remaining an Olympic class. It simply proposes to eliminate the trademark “Laser” in the rules and might in the long term even lead to the opposite – namely the elimination from the Olympics.

I think Andy's point in regard to this one of Heini's points is that the vote is not to drop the Laser name in favor of something else - this is not a constitution change. Rather it is intended to, as said before, "unbrand" the class rules. If at the eleventh hour the Laser trademark owners agree on a licensing scheme then the "unbranded" rules still work exactly as they do now. If the trademark owners fail (as I am typing this I see essentially no progress on this front) then we can have alternate branded boats racing alongside Lasers. 

Also note that if the trademark owners fail to to reach an agreement for trademark licensing it is still agreed that LP could regain their "approved" status as a builder (primarily by demonstrating conformance to the construction manual). So one believes they will still build and supply Lasers to Europe, though now, according to the World Sailing OEP, they may potentially have competitors. 

I should add that I also don't agree with Heini's statement. To me this entire process is all about the Olympics. If the trademark owners don't get an agreement and the rule change fails the World Sailing have said we are out and cannot be reconsidered. Presumably they will go next to the Aero who, as a relative newcomer, can probably easily modify their current business model to accommodate the OEP. I know from talking with them in Valencia that if they are selected they want to put in place the same tiered structure we have (which we want to extend even further) to create the pipeline starting with youth through the Olympics. Getting the youth sailors is the key, it won't take long to supplant the Laser if another boat is chosen for the Olympics. If that happens, then it really doesn't matter who owns or how many trademark owners there are. 

So, yes, the rule change is all about maximizing the chance of being retained in the Olympics. 

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10 hours ago, jgh66 said:

• The first reason given by the ILCA Management to vote yes is: “To Make sure that our class will remain in the Olympics.”. This is not correct. The proposal has nothing to do with the Laser Standard and the Laser Radial remaining an Olympic class. It simply proposes to eliminate the trademark “Laser” in the rules and might in the long term even lead to the opposite – namely the elimination from the Olympics.
• The second reason given “Ensure that class-legal equipment is available in ALL parts of the world” is also not correct. Class legal equipment is already today available in all parts of the world.
• The third reason “Give control of our class to the sailors, not the commercial parties” is misleading: the Laser Construction Manual Agreement (LCMA) governs and assures that the Laser remains a factory controlled one design boat. The parties to the LCMA are all the builders and ILCA. Any change in the agreement must be taken unanimously by all parties as of article 5.1. So ILCA and all builders control together the LCMA. This “veto right” already gives ILCA enough control of the class. No rule change is necessary for that.

My apologies if someone already wrote about this...

I really get angry when I read bull like this from people I used to even respect.

Dealing with the first reason, Heini deliberately does not mention the WS Anti-trust Policy, the WS Olympic Equipment Strategy, etc. Just so that he can have German sailors focus on the text of the rule change, and ignore why the rule change was conceived of in the first place. This omission is willful. IMHO, it is also unjustifiable. 

Dealing with the second reason, he literally lies. I don't believe that he has not heard of the supply problems in N.A. He is committing an act of dishonesty, and of course intentionally, for the purpose of (mis)leading his fellow German Laser sailors.

Dealing with the third reason, he is replacing "control of the Class" with "control of the Construction Manual" to display demagoguery to appeal to the desires and prejudices of all Laser sailors who would like to keep the boat one-design. Assuming he knows English, this is again a devious, willful act of commission. And it is unjustifiable.

I really have had enough of such mis-information that is detrimental to both the Association and to its German members.

I would like to bring to the attention of ILCA our ILCA Constitution, Article 13! These Class officers have to realize that they can be held accountable for what they are communicating to their members.

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42 minutes ago, drLaser said:

My apologies if someone already wrote about this...

I really get angry when I read bull like this from people I used to even respect.

Dealing with the first reason, Heini deliberately does not mention the WS Anti-trust Policy, the WS Olympic Equipment Strategy, etc. Just so that he can have German sailors focus on the text of the rule change, and ignore why the rule change was conceived of in the first place. This omission is willful. IMHO, it is also unjustifiable. 

Dealing with the second reason, he literally lies. I don't believe that he has not heard of the supply problems in N.A. He is committing an act of dishonesty, and of course intentionally, for the purpose of (mis)leading his fellow German Laser sailors.

Dealing with the third reason, he is replacing "control of the Class" with "control of the Construction Manual" to display demagoguery to appeal to the desires and prejudices of all Laser sailors who would like to keep the boat one-design. Assuming he knows English, this is again a devious, willful act of commission. And it is unjustifiable.

I really have had enough of such mis-information that is detrimental to both the Association and to its German members.

I would like to bring to the attention of ILCA our ILCA Constitution, Article 13! These Class officers have to realize that they can be held accountable for what they are communicating to their members.

Oh dear! It really is frustrating having to correct your poor comprehension.  So I shan’t bother - the idiocy of you arguments are there for all to see.

I will make just one point though.  To claim Heini “literally lies” might be considered libellous.  Any individual in NA can order a Laser from PSA or PSJ if they don’t like the service from LP.  

Rather than accusing Heini of deliberately misinforming and misleading people, have you stopped to consider why he chose to vote no? Do you think he is stupid?Corrupt? Or is it possible that he sees the proposal as a bigger risk to the class than alternative paths?

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

I will make just one point though.  To claim Heini “literally lies” might be considered libellous.  Any individual in NA can order a Laser from PSA or PSJ if they don’t like the service from LP.  

A clever counter point Sosoomii. Except for the clever part. And the logic.

Here's what Heini (and you Sosoomii) are apparently supporting:

"ILCA’s management has obviously acceded to this non-competitive strategy and the illegal initiative to change ILCA’s name. Coupled with the ILCA/PSA/PSJ secret alliance to replace the Radial and 4.7 Laser boats with C series rigs, it becomes clear why ILCA refused to meet with LaserPerformance to negotiate a new license agreement in its territories (the world except Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Korea)."

I am very happy to point out false statements, and very happy to be sued - you will find there is little basis for such a legal action. 

My point being, it is only libelous if it is false. In fact, Mr Wellmann may well find it more appropriate to sue himself for damaging his own character through his own making of false statements.

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6 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

A clever counter point Sosoomii. Except for the clever part. And the logic.

Here's what Heini (and you Sosoomii) are apparently supporting:

"ILCA’s management has obviously acceded to this non-competitive strategy and the illegal initiative to change ILCA’s name. Coupled with the ILCA/PSA/PSJ secret alliance to replace the Radial and 4.7 Laser boats with C series rigs, it becomes clear why ILCA refused to meet with LaserPerformance to negotiate a new license agreement in its territories (the world except Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Korea)."

I am very happy to point out false statements, and very happy to be sued - you will find there is little basis for such a legal action. 

My point being, it is only libelous if it is false. In fact, Mr Wellmann may well find it more appropriate to sue himself for damaging his own character through his own making of false statements.

Wtf?  At least the good doctor’s post make sense even if he is a bull in a china shop.  

Americans are legally allowed to import Lasers from PSA/J. None of the parties involved dispute this.  To claim Heini “literally lies” or it is a “false statement” to point this out is defamatory to him.

What I actually said and what you heard are not the same thing.  Please do not falsely ascribe beliefs to me.  I do not suppprt that quote above and have never claimed to.  As far as I know ILCA does not have any plans to change its name.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Wtf?  At least the good doctor’s post make sense even if he is a bull in a china shop.  

Americans are legally allowed to import Lasers from PSA/J. None of the parties involved dispute this.  To claim Heini “literally lies” or it is a “false statement” to point this out is defamatory to him.

What I actually said and what you heard are not the same thing.  Please do not falsely ascribe beliefs to me.  I do not suppprt that quote above and have never claimed to.  As far as I know ILCA does not have any plans to change its name.

I heard exactly what you said. And saw exactly what you omitted saying.

By appearing to supporting a set of beliefs held by another party, then how do we know to draw the line unless you say? 

---

Let's look at the mistruth that Heini puts forward in his email:

Quote

The second reason given “Ensure that class-legal equipment is available in ALL parts of the world” is also not correct. Class legal equipment is already today available in all parts of the world.

The expression of the desire to ensure that class-legal equipment is available in all parts of the world is not an incorrect statement as Heini puts forward.

Hieni is responding to a statement which is an executive summary. It appears directly below a link where readers are explicitly advised where to find further information.

The ILCA statement is “Ensure that class-legal equipment is available in ALL parts of the world”. We know what ILCA mean because ILCA tell us this, saying this and more:

Quote

Q: What Does the ILCA World Council think about FRAND?
A: The ILCA World Council support’s World Sailing’s FRAND licensing policy and has been working to get all the current builders and Trademark holders to develop a licensing agreement that will meet the FRAND conditions. Having more qualified builders to supply equipment around the world, which would be the direct outcome from complying with FRAND, will be a significant improvement from the status quo in which sailors depend on monopoly suppliers to provide equipment in their area.

So while yes, Hieni is correct, Laser equipment is available in all part of the world, he is incorrect to say ILCA is incorrect. 

Heini is in fact 'correct', and we 'know' this because in the 'far reaches of the planet' in a region called North America there was an order placed in 2017, paid for in 2017 and delivered in 2019. This is 'proof' that Heini is in fact 'correct' that equipment is available - and because of this I am 100% clear that Heini deliberately misleads

Perhaps some may say Heini Wellmann's English is not very good? (Shall we call that the Jean-Luc defense?) Actually, Heini appears to be playing readers for fools.

And if Heini speaks the truth then Gouv and other have being misleading over the last few years about supply.

---

7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Certain writers in these forums believe it is proper to attack and defame those class volunteers with whom they disagree. 

I suppose if they have never  served nor intend to serve as a volunteer officer,  it is perfectly acceptable to some to attempt to destroy the reputations of those of us who are fool enough to do our best to provide service to those short sighted unappreciative selfish  assholes. 

It may be  acceptable  to question the decisions or logic of those who are doing their very best to make our game work, but the only lowlife scum are those who personally attack and accuse our volunteers of dishonesty and or malicious intent . 

mr Wellman has done more for the Laser Game than any ten of the rest of you. In the gentlest of terms, those of you who are attacking him can fuck off. 

Again, I have no problem calling out Heini Wellmann for making misleading and false statements. If Tracy Usher, Andy Roy etc made a false and misleading statement, then I would call them on it too. But Tracy and Andy have not.

Volunteers are not beyond reproach. 

What make's Mr Wellmann's statement fundamentally dishonest is that his grasp of English is superb. Specifically, he said in their statement the ILCA were incorrect twice, that the ILCA mislead and that the ILCA provided no valid reasons to change the rule. He then continues on to make a point about contracts that he knows are being replaced.

Previously, I have given Mr Wellmann the benefit of doubt because I found no evidence of wrongdoing.

To be blunt, this email shared crosses that line, and shows Mr Wellmann engaging in the very practice he claims to despise: the making of false claims and misinforming.

---

Actually "Sosoomii", you do know that ILCA plans to change the name for the Laser, however that remains a contingency plan. Their first preference is to continue with the Laser name - though are prepared to change it is it is no longer a logical option - or did you purposely miss those statements too.

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A reminder of a proposal:

Quote

 LaserPeformance calls for:
A. ILCA move back to Europe where the majority of Laser sailors live and sail.
B. ILCA appoint a professional executive team to run the class operations paid for by increased plaque fees charged to the builders.

image.png.a84f5aab438b31d052cd5632b05608ed.png

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15 hours ago, drLaser said:

 

I would like to bring to the attention of ILCA our ILCA Constitution, Article 13! These Class officers have to realize that they can be held accountable for what they are communicating to their members.

Since you bring it up; I think there are many well respected people in the class that think that should apply to the statements of the current ILCA leadership. It’s a double edged sword doc. Be careful what you wish for. 

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

To be blunt, this email shared crosses that line, and shows Mr Wellmann engaging in the very practice he claims to despise: the making of false claims and misinforming.

The irony is strong in this one!

---

Actually "Sosoomii", you do know that ILCA plans to change the name for the Laser, however that remains a contingency plan. Their first preference is to continue with the Laser name - though are prepared to change it is it is no longer a logical option - or did you purposely miss those statements too.

You talk about an “initiative to change ILCA’s name”. I know of no such initiative, even as a continue plan.  I know of a plan to “unbrand” the class rules but that is quite different.  

A simple question @Bruce Hudson.  What does Heini stand to gain from voting no? What is his motive?  

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14 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Any individual in NA can order a Laser from PSA or PSJ if they don’t like the service from LP.  

??? Um, Yeah, I suppose.  They can order, but PSA and PSJ are liable to a lawsuit if they deliver to such a sale in NA, I do believe.   If the individual took delivery outside LP's TM region, so that the transaction occurred outside NA, then the individual already owns the boat before importation, and is the importer of record so that no sale/rental/etc of a trade-marked Laser by PSA or PSJ happened in LP's region NA.  Doesn't sound terribly convenient, and I think qualifies as a NA supply issue.  I am pretty sure that is why the recent Junior boats brought in to Kingston weren't "Lasers", so that LP would not be able to claim a TM infringement occurred in NA.  

So, no, Sosoomi, I do not think what you wrote is correct.  Or, at least, such an order risks your moniker coming true.  Someone might sue someone.  Which sucks.

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No, that isn’t correct.  Any individual can order from any Laser supplier and the supplier is entitled to fulfill that order.  LP admit as much: 

http://doryventures.scene7.com/s7viewers/html5/eCatalogViewer.html?emailurl=http://doryventures.scene7.com/s7/emailFriend&serverUrl=http://doryventures.scene7.com/is/image/&config=Scene7SharedAssets/Universal_HTML5_eCatalog&contenturl=http://doryventures.scene7.com/skins/&asset=DoryVentures/Laser AntiTrust Doc Final PDF&lang=en

It might not be as convenient as going to your local dealer, but it is perfectly legal.

DrLaser and Bruce HATE it when people spread misinformation like you have, they will doubtless call for an apology from you ;) 

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Hmmn,  Interesting, @sosoomii, I assume you are referring to point #3 in the linked doc?  I don't know what the basis would be for such a statement, which would seem to me to be opposed to current Laser TM holder regional IP rights, and TM law as I understand it, and LP actions in the past, which has sought to aggressively defend its IP rights.  Maybe someone can clarify. 

But producing a document that says something does not make that something true.  Has LP in fact signed a binding agreement that state they don't care about their TM in NA as long as individuals order direct drop-ship from PSA and PSJ?  I haven't ever seen it.  It seems most unlikely to me, but I have no problem changing an opinion when faced with contradictory facts.  Heck, I might even voluntarily apologize for my misunderstanding, sosoomi!  But that doc proves nothing.

I wonder if PSA and PSJ are sufficiently confident of LP's good intentions to live up to this statement #3 to drop-ship Laser-labelled product into NA, which to my understanding, still, would be in violation of LP's NA TM rights (please correct?).  But WTF this is a stupid line of thinking anyway.  Cost, lead-times, logistics.  It is a total non-starter as a NA supply option, sosoomi, so I don't really understand why you think it matters.  NA/SA need a decent local distributor network, with inventory, support.  Not hard to understand.

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Your are right @bacq2bacq, it is a pointless discussion because it is evidently true that NA/SA would benefit from better supply.  I only raised the point because DrLaser is a very literal and pedantic person and accused the past president of ILCA of telling a lie when, in fact, he had not.  Which is ironic because he likes to point out in very strong terms when misinformation is spread.  

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

To be blunt, this email shared crosses that line, and shows Mr Wellmann engaging in the very practice he claims to despise: the making of false claims and misinforming.

The irony is strong in this one!

Agreed, Wellmann must have thought that when writing "not correct" when deliberately misinforming. (Does anyone believe it was a 'mistake'?)

---

Actually "Sosoomii", you do know that ILCA plans to change the name for the Laser, however that remains a contingency plan. Their first preference is to continue with the Laser name - though are prepared to change it is it is no longer a logical option - or did you purposely miss those statements too.

You talk about an “initiative to change ILCA’s name”. I know of no such initiative, even as a continue plan.  I know of a plan to “unbrand” the class rules but that is quite different.  

No, I said contingency plan. So you think that in the future, if there is no permission to use the Laser brand, it should be used anyway?? You said "a plan" and I agree. Believe it or not there is more than one plan - as already made public.

The key is getting that permission. Nothing has changed. 

 

1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

A simple question @Bruce Hudson.  What does Heini stand to gain from voting no? What is his motive?  

A very simple question to answer, if I could read Heini's mind.

I'd suggest the answer would be the same which drove him to misinform.

1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

Your are right @bacq2bacq, it is a pointless discussion because it is evidently true that NA/SA would benefit from better supply.  I only raised the point because DrLaser is a very literal and pedantic person and accused the past president of ILCA of telling a lie when, in fact, he had not.  Which is ironic because he likes to point out in very strong terms when misinformation is spread.  

Now now Sosoomii. You are saying that DrLaser said something untrue about Heini saying something untrue - when in fact it was true that Heini was being untrue. And now by saying "when in fact, he had not" means you are stating a mistruth.

It is possible (even probable) that you did not comprehend the mistruths which are contained in Heini's email.

And now you state supply issues as a fact.

8 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

because it is evidently true that NA/SA would benefit from better supply.  

---

18 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

How is this thread positive Laser?

Patience. All will be revealed in time.

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Actually, @sosoomii, it isn't completely pointless to discuss whether point #3 in the document you linked to is true.  If it is true, and LP really did write it, then it implies that LP has contractually relinquished NA/SA TM rights to PSA/PSJ under some conditions.  It would surprise me, but maybe there is some long-standing grandfathered exemption for individual purchases of non-TM-holder gear in TM-holder territory of which I am unaware.  Or some new agreement.

If it is false, then LP is clearly guilty of mis-informing in the linked doc.    SO, Soomi (et al): is it true, or is it false?  I've been assuming false, obviously.

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"LASER":

Definition 1: noun, acronym: "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation"; an optical device that produces coherent light.

Definition 2: noun: an olympic racing dinghy that stimulates emission of heavy and incoherent arguments.

Definitely, positively, LASER.

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

Sorry, b2b, but I’m not going to dig thorough half a dozen threads and thousands of posts to find the info you seek, and I’m not prepared to answer from memory because I won’t be 100% accurate.

Then rather putting forward that it is pointless, perhaps you meant that you lacked the motivation?

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From german class on FB:

Es ist eine Behauptung der ILCA, dass die Einigung der Warenlizenzinhaber eine Voraussetzung für den Olympiastatus ist. World Sailing verlangt bis 01.08. eine Einigung über die FRAND-Richtlinie. Die Lizenzvereinbarung ist ein separates Dokument, das die Warenlizenzinhaber unter sich aushandeln. Wie Du richtig sagst, hat das mit Laser Performance als klassenlegaler Bootsbauer nichts zu tun. Die Marke "Laser" wird durch die Firma Velum gehalten. Die Lizenzvereinbarung ist sicher notwendig, aber nach unserem Wissensstand nicht von World Sailing bis 01.08. gefordert.

 

Google translation:

It is an ILCA claim that the agreement of the license holders is a prerequisite for the Olympic status. World Sailing demands until 01.08. an agreement on the FRAND directive. The license agreement is a separate document that the license holders negotiate among themselves. As you rightly say, this has nothing to do with Laser Performance as a class-legal boatbuilder. The brand "Laser" is held by the company Velum. The license agreement is certainly necessary, but to our knowledge not from World Sailing until 01.08. required.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 

 

A very simple question to answer, if I could read Heini's mind.

I'd suggest the answer would be the same which drove him to misinform.

1. You switched from renaming ILCA to renaming the boat.  That kind of slight of hand (or carelessness) is worse misinformation than most you complain about.

2. You accuse people who don’t support a yes vote of spreading misinformation, but offer no reason as to why they would.  Are they just malicious, or anarchists? Do they stand to gain? Are they corrupt?  Are they too dim to realise what they are doing? Maybe they sincerely believe that this course of action is not the best?

 

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One of the positives that has come from the negative is that comes from of of this shite (and it IS shite) is that it forces us to question what is important.

Those who already had an enormous passion for Laser sailing, were (and are) predisposed to react in an 'over the top way' to things that threaten what is believed to be right about the class.

Pete Conway posted on Facebook an article from Saily.it. Andy Roy engaged with Pete, and in their exchange said:

image.png.be558904405b4ebb6993bd419f6cdb45.png

It is clear that Andy is completely mad, though it is the same 'madness' which binds us as Laser sailors.

Clearly, I too have a love for Laser sailing.

---

This is not about invalidating the rationale - it is more about finding valid arguments for it.

A lot of the information being posted is not new, resulting in responses like this:

image.png.bfff7126228551bfdeed531713ab92eb.png

Maybe one of the most significant things to be released over the last week was Heini's email. 

And in my view fails to make the case for voting no.

---

This was sent to me:

 

ILCA cartoon.png

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25 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Which category are you putting Heini Wellman in?  And Robert Scheidt?

I didn't know you had created categories. Well done, good work!! lease share what they are!

Also, please share what Robert Scheidt has written, so we can all make that determination. For now, hows does 'Olympic contender' sound?

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Ok Bruce, I’ll keep it really simple for you.  

Do you believe Heini Wellman deliberately lied? If so, why did he do so?

It looks to me that you are trying to discredit people you disagree with by accusing them of being liars.  But without a motive why would Wellman or JPK lie to get a no vote? What do they gain? 

I can understand why ILCA leadership* might omit information, mislead and misinform in their statements eliciting support for yes - they believe a yes vote is the only way the Laser stays Olympic. And I can understand why LP* might do the same for a no vote - to protect their business.  But Heini and JPK? I don’t see the motive.

To be clear I am not accusing ILCA or LP of lying, just saying I can see a motive for why they might. 

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37 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Ok Bruce, I’ll keep it really simple for you.  

Why do you keep accusing Mr Hudson of making accusations he has not in fact made?

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I’m not.  After accusing Mr Wellman of making “false statements” I’m seeking clarification from Mr Hudson whether he thinks these statements were deliberately false and not merely misleading acts of omission but acts of commission.

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It might not be that they have a direct motive, but perhaps they are a lot more tied to the 'no' side of the argument?

They could just be close friends with Farzad or someone else who is pushing the 'no' argument?

I'm sure I wouldn't be anywhere near as invested in the 'yes' argument if one of my best friends/mentors wasn't one of the WC members pushing the 'yes' vote. 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

I’m seeking clarification from Mr Hudson whether he thinks these statements were deliberately false and not merely misleading acts of omission but acts of commission.

Which is, arguably, a daft question, because how would he know. Very often the reasons why discussions on controversial topics get so heated is because it veers from what participants do know into discussions of the alleged good or bad motives of people quite unknown to them. You appear, whether deliberately or otherwise to be attempting to provoke Mr Hudson into making statements or expressing opinions he cannot possibly have evidence for. Why do you think this is a useful contribution?

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The cartoon was accompanied by this note:

"Perhaps I'm one of only a few of GER Masters, but the rest that at GER, that voted NO, obviously voted in reason of wrong or less trustful informations or because those have an issue to fight with ILCA is my opinion. However, Wellmann is a "wilier" guy! Hahaha. So funny to see behind/ to be aware of his Intentionen! Does such a fellows Sailor of the European Masters Scene really think, a common voter, like me "is a dude"?? Yes, Shevy, aft August 1st, lawsuits in the way of Article 13 ILCA Rules should start! Some Officers of the Laser WC did misbeave heavy." 

It's a bit confusing... But obviously, not all Continental Europeans take Heini's bait. And some are apparently even aware of the "Article 13 issue" I had the audacity to raise earlier.

Beautiful, sunny day in Istanbul with puffy wind clouds. 10-15 knots. 27 Celcius. The metal part of the self-bailer just broke. No replacements "available" anywhere. But I'm nevertheless out by the ramp. My first sail as a Great Grand Master. Eat your heart out, Southern Hemisphere.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

It is  closeted fuckwit  trolls like this [] scum who pollute...

20 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

You guys   I  really need to go sailing 

Y'all would be welcome to sail here, I'm pretty sure:     https://byc.ca/sail/2019-laser-masters 

End of August.  I might just be bacq in time... anyone ~local on this thread going?  If I'm there, and you're there, I'll buy you a beer.  I'll be the old grey guy in the grey '70s PS Laser with the double-inspection ports so I could fix my mast base, and the 5 1970s BYC club boat stickers its bum.   Yeah, no, that's not me... turn around, that's me at the blunt end.

There, Gouv.  An offer of free beer at a local Laser event.  Positive, and Laser.

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Jim nailed it above.

Though I shall answer, then explain why I bother answering.

6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Ok Bruce, I’ll keep it really simple for you.  

Do you believe Heini Wellman deliberately lied? If so, why did he do so?

At this point, I cannot rule out that Wellmann is lying.

On 7/27/2019 at 9:37 PM, Bruce Hudson said:

Again, I have no problem calling out Heini Wellmann for making misleading and false statements. 

That was clear. 

On 7/28/2019 at 3:36 AM, Bruce Hudson said:

A very simple question to answer, if I could read Heini's mind.

I'd suggest the answer would be the same which drove him to misinform.

That was also clear.

So perhaps we should be asking your motives Sosoomii?

6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

It looks to me that you are trying to discredit people you disagree with by accusing them of being liars.  But without a motive why would Wellman or JPK lie to get a no vote? What do they gain? 

They gain nothing without motive. I don't believe that these childish questions reflect who you are as a writer Sosoomii. They are more likely to be an attempt to divert attention. Of course we can't speak for others. I can talk about my motives, and life long passion for sailing, and my passion for Laser sailing since 1983.

Can you confirm you are consciously attempting to deflect? What are your motives Sosoomii? What do you gain?

6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I can understand why ILCA leadership* might omit information, mislead and misinform in their statements eliciting support for yes - they believe a yes vote is the only way the Laser stays Olympic. And I can understand why LP* might do the same for a no vote - to protect their business.  But Heini and JPK? I don’t see the motive.

That is not what Heini Wellmann did with his email.

You say you don't see Heini's motive. Excellent. I acknowledge that you don't see any motive. It is correct for you to say you don't see motive.

It is also a distraction to talk about other people's motives. Specifically, you are distracting us away from the text of Mr Wellmann which misinforms. The real questions are, do you see how Heini misinforms?

Here's the exact text, the subject on which we are talking about:

Quote

The second reason given “Ensure that class-legal equipment is available in ALL parts of the world” is also not correct. Class legal equipment is already today available in all parts of the world.

Heini makes not only a mistake in fact, he makes a tactical blunder. Either Heini does not understand what he wrote himself, or he misinforms.  I'm pretty sure his grasp of English is excellent.

The specific error of fact is that what ILCA say is actually correct. In itself, it is a minor point. What is major is that Hieni clearly seeks to misinform the reader. 

For several years I have been studying trolls, and it always bugged me about what their motives are. Some are simply impassioned with the topic. Some are carrying a grudge. Others have deep psychological issues. The majority do it for no financial gain. Yet some do. I have reached the conclusion that speculating on motives is in itself a distraction. It is the communication, the data what matters. So Sosoomii, when I say it is enough to simply know that Heini has misinformed, it it not a glib off the cuff statement.

6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

To be clear I am not accusing ILCA or LP of lying, just saying I can see a motive for why they might. 

Indeed you are being clear Sosoomii. And your bias is showing.

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

It is  closeted fuckwit  trolls like this Lemonpepper scum who pollute these forums. 

What kind of small minded twit finds it acceptable to make  anonymous personal attacks on our dedicated volunteers and employees??

You are a volunteer Gouv, yet you wrote the above?

Please confirm you know the identity of 'Lemonpepper', and can confirm for sure the 'Lemonpepper' is not a volunteer.

13 hours ago, lemonpepper said:

In many cases, yes, they stand to gain like the monopoly european dealers and the european chairman who would be in line to take the lucrative paid executive position that LP have so overtly offered. 

This statement which Gouv reacted to, is supported in fact.

Here is a statement which supports what Lemonpepper is saying:

image.png.5ea5acb968d542ed2a6efd3f59e80b53.png

The last line is a clear statement that Laser Performance supports the payment of officials.

The last line is a clear motive for some officials to act in specific ways.

The statement was made in public, and is therefore overt.

It is not clear which officials are seeking to please Laser Performance (or Farzad Rastegar) in this way.

In the end, it is the actual statements that are fact, and speculating on motives is a distraction.

So too are 'over the top' allegations like Gouv just made. The irony is that Gouv in a small way 'polluted' the discussion. That does not mean Gouv is a bad person, nor mean that the Easter regatta on Lake Travis is anything less than awesome.

What it does mean is that to some extent we are all triggered into responses, including me.

What connects the vast majority who comment on this is a passion for sailing, a passion for racing Lasers. 

And at the heart of this is the ambition of one commercial operator who seeks greater control of our sport.

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38 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

...

What connects the vast majority who comment on this is a passion for sailing, a passion for racing Lasers. 

And at the heart of this is the ambition of one commercial operator who seeks greater control of our sport.

PSA?

      It looks to me as though LP already hold most of the good cards and the bulk of the (existing) market. What do they stand to gain by disrupting the status quo?

Cheers,

              W.

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Back from sailing, found an e-mail in my inbox, and I rearranged it into a parody. Total waste of your time, though. Can be ignored, unless you have time to burn:

Gouvernail, there was a lot of damning information about the Michon campaign that came out of the Heini Wellman letter to the European Districts this week. Perhaps above all, there was one point that Wellman made for the European Districts and the Laser sailors to realize: ILCA-Europe interfered with 2018-19 World Council deliberations to help LaserPerformance and will continue to do so today. 

EurILCA didn't just try to hack into the Districts’ leaderships all across Europe. They used social media, like Facebook and websites to spread mis-information and further divide all Laser  sailors. What's more, a doctor’s report released this past week (subliminally) suggests that EurILCA is doing the same exact thing it did back in 2004, as we head into the 2020. 

However, don’t expect Eric Faust or Tracy Usher to lift a finger to stop this. If we want to stop a repeat of 2004, we have to take action ourselves. 

That’s where LassiePolitics.com comes in. We not only break down the news, educate and debunk lies for our audience, but we provide the tools to take impactful action in response to the fake-news and mis-information to fight back against the lies. Since March 28, 2019 alone, we signed up more than 5,000 volunteers to help turn out voters, helping to get thousands of voters to cast their ballots and generate the highest Rule Change voter turnout in ILCA history. 

Source:  A private e-mail from DailyKos.com about Russian interference in 2016 USA presidential elections:

"Shevy, there was a lot of damning information about the Trump campaign that came out of Robert Mueller's Congressional testimony this week. Perhaps above all, there was one point that Mueller wanted to make clear to Congress and the American people: Russia interfered with 2016 election to help Donald Trump and continues to do so today. 
   Russia didn't just hack into election systems all across the country. They used social media, like Facebook and Twitter to spread misinformation and further divide the country. What's more, a Senate intel report released this past week states that Russia is doing the same exact thing as we head into the 2020 elections. 
   However, don’t expect Mitch McConnell or Donald Trump to lift a finger to stop this. If we want to stop a repeat of 2016, we have to take action ourselves. 
   That’s where Daily Kos comes in. We not only break down the news, educate and debunk lies for our enormous audience, but we provide the tools to take impactful action in response to the news and to fight back against the lies. In 2018 alone, we signed up more than 65,000 volunteers to help turn out voters, helping to get tens of thousands of voters to cast their ballots and generate the highest midterm voter turnout in history."
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18 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

What do they stand to gain by disrupting the status quo?

Who knows what their motivation is?  They've had major rows in the last year with both their major International CAs over attempts to impose apparently  unnecessary new contracts. Dealers claim they do not supply one of their bigger markets adequately for no obvious reason, and they deliberately broke the term of the contract with ILCA over factory inspections. They have had a major rejigging of the maze of companies involved in building the Laser. They release what appear to this outsider to be highly inflammatory press releases. They have called for a major change in the way the ILCA works, which is arguably not their place to do. They clearly wish to disrupt the status quo. The motivation seems inexplicable, but it must make sense from where they are sitting.

 

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9 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

PSA?

      It looks to me as though LP already hold most of the good cards and the bulk of the (existing) market. What do they stand to gain by disrupting the status quo?

Cheers,

              W.

I'm not sure what you are asking with PSA. But I can speak a little about PSA and Chris Caldecoat. 

First, PSA is owned by a very wealthy family who really don't need PSA to make money. Someone who knows the history better would be able to speak in more detail, I strongly suspect that there was a Spencer who sailed Lasers (or at least raced one design) - because PSA as a business show signs of putting sailing before commerce.   

That is definitely the case with Chris Caldecoat. He is an active Laser sailor, last competing in a masters event earlier this month. His daughter Paige also races, and she's good.

Both PSA and PSJ in my view are acting for the good of the class.

---

Earlier, I said that statements matter more than speculating about motives.

Laser Performance, Bahman Kia and others have made a amount of public statements that present a clear desire to be more involved with the governance of sailing.

Funding, mentioned above is just one.

There is a lot more data to come in this area in the near future.

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18 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

... Chris Caldecoat. He is an active Laser sailor ... His daughter Paige also races, and she's good.

Yeah, I know: she's currently about 25 places higher than my daughter at the Youth Radial Worlds! :-)

Cheers,

              W.

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1 minute ago, WGWarburton said:

Yeah, I know: she's currently about 25 places higher than my daughter at the Youth Radial Worlds! :-)

Cheers,

              W.

I already knew that. ;) 

And you are busted - you are a Laser sailor too. (Internet kind of exposes that, with clubs posting results.) Kudos to you for posting under your real name!!

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On 7/25/2019 at 12:57 AM, Gouvernail said:

I object to the entire voting system

member  names need to be registered and associated with personal email addresses and world sailing numbers 

 

to vote, a member would log into the voting site , answer the identification questions and cast a secret ballot. 

At the very least a third  party should conduct the vote, certify the eligibility of each voter, and NEVER divulge how any individual voted. 

 

They have certainly biased things in favor of getting anyone and everyone to vote their way but I do not think they would lie or miscount votes. 

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^^^  "Wess" digs deep to sow discontent ^^^

Responding to a four day old post is a cheap trick.

What "Wess" says he doesn't think is a ploy to focus others to think exactly that. (In that way, "Wess" is using Gouv, and has been for years). Got it Gouv?

I may understand more about the relationship you have with "Wess" than you realize. My hope is that these antics stop.  ;) 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

I genuinely think you may suffer from paranoia Bruce.  I am not trolling, I am concerned for you. 

How bizarre. 

I am posting my own name, talking down conspiracy theories targeting ILCA (there genuinely is no basis for them), quoting and fact checking.

You may not consider yourself a troll, though let me help you:

Quote

In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain. (Source)

Stating that I you genuinely think I may suffer from paranoia is inflammatory. Trying to make this about my welfare by stating concern is off topic.

(I'm fine Sosoomii, whoever you are).

And claiming in the same post that you are not trolling, well that's about as ironic as it gets.

(Hint, trolling doesn't need to be intentional - the troll doesn't even need to be aware that he or she is trolling.)

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1 minute ago, Gouvernail said:

I would sail the  Laser But If I break something I probably won’t be able to get replacement parts before Easter. 

An excellent to vote yes Gouv.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

I genuinely think you may suffer from paranoia Gouv.  I am not trolling, I am concerned for you. 

FIFY ;) 

I follow many forums which I do not post on, and see you (Gouv) there. :) 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

Note:  Wes is a cantankerous old fart who lives near the latest area to be labeled as “infested” on Twitter by that fat fella who plays a lot of golf. 

I haven’t yet met Wess but I am positive I will enjoy the encounter when it happens. 

 

Uh, thanks, I think?! What the heck prompted that??

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Somebody suggested you were my sock puppet 

Canntt?? I have that nut on ignore. What an idiot. 

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Hey BruceH, ever heard of the "uncanny valley"?  When something resembles something just a little too closely to feel comfortable about it...  So you've been trying to identify "Gouv" on other sites, eh, and draw correlations and conclusions?  Warning "Gouv" about "Wess", eh?....  strongly advocating for a particular position in a vote... hmnn... :ph34r::D

And, well Gouv, kudos to you for your energy: I ain't done shit lately about Lasers, other than watch the soap-opera (OMG!), and still ain't fixed my mast base here, but the new alternator is now in the Jeep with the 3.0 Merc CRD diesel, the wheel bearings on the trailer are replaced, and the chances are starting to look better than zero that the F31 gets dragged to the Georgian Bay for a nice relaxing cruise.  And then, maybe, make it back in time to fix my old Laser and compete in: 
https://byc.ca/sail/2019-laser-masters        Aug 24/25

which is the event that got my ass back competing in a Laser after a long abstinence.  In my first Master's regatta, Heinz Gebauer, rest his soul, a ~70-year old lightweight horizoned the whole fleet downwind by-the-lee.  I thought, wow, if that little old fart can crush these big strong young bucks, I think I might just like this sport!

For the vast majority of Laser sailors, I'm pretty sure they couldn't give a hoot...  life, regattas, fun will go on.  Good work Gouv... er, whoever you are... keep the club-flame burning.  The Olympic flame?  Yeah, nice-to-have, but meh for most.

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20 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Stating that I you genuinely think I may suffer from paranoia is inflammatory

Dear Bruces, please take this in the right way, as positive, constructive feedback:  I don't think all of you are paranoid.   ;) 

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21 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

FIFY ;) 

I follow many forums which I do not post on, and see you (Gouv) there. :) 

Last time according to you, Wess was Bill Crane and then he was Tillerman.  Now in 181 you think Gouvernail is Wess,  and by 188 you seem to think Gouvernail is Sosoomii.  So is Sosoomi now Bill Crane or Wess or both?  Your stupidity on who is who is only surpassed by your ability to accuse volunteers of taking bribes.  I don't think you are paranoid as much as I think you have the emotional maturity, intelligence and utility of a cockroach.  I went to the ILCA site and voted no as you.  Twenty nine times.  Today alone. 

That last part is not true. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 8:50 PM, lemonpepper said:

I agree with you completely. You are definitely uninformed. 

Sorry you spent so long to type such an uninformed post.

What a stupid little piece of shit you are. Mr. Warburton is one of the rare few individuals who posts and provides a fair and balanced perspective from the EU and you attack him.  Congratulations; you are the weakest link.

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4 hours ago, bacq2bacq said:

Hey BruceH, ever heard of the "uncanny valley"?  When something resembles something just a little too closely to feel comfortable about it...  So you've been trying to identify "Gouv" on other sites, eh, and draw correlations and conclusions?  Warning "Gouv" about "Wess", eh?....  strongly advocating for a particular position in a vote... hmnn... :ph34r::D

Actually, I hadn't heard of "uncanny valley" - just looked it up and will read a bit on the topic. (It is fascinating damn you! ;) I already have enough to read!) Pot calling kettle black, I know, I know. It is related to an areas of extreme interest to me.

---

I'm not 'trying' to identify Gouv on other sites, he identifies himself pretty clearly! Me and Gouv go back some 6 years... (Both Gouv and I recognize each other as over communicators! Though I have to say Gouv makes a lot more posts online than I do - a lot more!) I know exactly who Gouv is (nothing unusual there)... but don't know who Wess is... ...and since I'm on this topic... Wess could be anybody... my dig at Gouv was me talking about the banter going back and forth (that is the 'relationship' which I referred to - which I admit I over analyse - and I have zero evidence to suggest that Gouv is Wess)... Gouv and I have our differences though also similarities.

I completely admire Gouv's commitment to sailing, am tempted at some point to sail Lasers at Lake Travis one Easter (I know some people in Austin I've been meaning to visit). I really love sailing Lasers in flat fresh water, gusty winds, with big wind shifts.

---

LMI wrote of me: "Your stupidity on who is who is only surpassed by your ability to accuse volunteers of taking bribes." Normally I'd say that responding to such a statement requires too much close reasoning with insufficient returns to justify the effort, however will make a little effort to respond never the less. Actually, my stupidity definately surpasses something I did not do, something made up that LMI is passing on. In fact I did not accuse volunteers of taking bribes. I have however communicated that Mr Rastegar on 22 May 2019 claimed he had paid two volunteers. Whether or not LMI deliberately misinforms or not does not matter to me, though unquestionably his or her statement "...shows a lack of good sense or judgement". Consistent with that is the surprise that LMI may have to learn I am a current member of the ILCA, and voted yes once (though I doubt many others are surprised).

---

PS:
Image result for Heinz Gebauer laser

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Not much in the way of absolutely, positive comments the last little while. Went to check on the boats at the lake yesterday. Forecast was for zero breeze, but the wind picked up to a nice 15 with some gusts. So I put off my Sunday chores, tossed the laser in the Lake and went for a nice 2 hour sail. No "training" that everyone seems to get hung up on, just pure sailing. No practice starts; no stalling the boat and seeing how long you stay sopped; no mark rounding exercises; no little courses to go around and around - just a nice sail. It is sure nice to reach across the lake on a plane and just enjoy. I miss reaching while racing. And I was reminded what a great little boat we sail. 

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17 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Not much in the way of absolutely, positive comments the last little while. Went to check on the boats at the lake yesterday. Forecast was for zero breeze, but the wind picked up to a nice 15 with some gusts. So I put off my Sunday chores, tossed the laser in the Lake and went for a nice 2 hour sail. No "training" that everyone seems to get hung up on, just pure sailing. No practice starts; no stalling the boat and seeing how long you stay sopped; no mark rounding exercises; no little courses to go around and around - just a nice sail. It is sure nice to reach across the lake on a plane and just enjoy. I miss reaching while racing. And I was reminded what a great little boat we sail. 

Amen! Now go vote no before it’s too late!!

but seriously... AMEN!

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2 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I don’t understand the relationship ...

 

It’s based on geometry and chemistry, form and space.......

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

The official course of the Easter Laser Regatta is 

S- W - L - W - R - L - W - L -F

or

up down up  and around up Down up

The start and finish are beyond the ends of the triangle and the weather buoy is not a mark on the last leg 

https://www.mcdonaldphoto.com/search/?n=mcdonaldphoto&scope=node&scopeValue=G5Tfk&c=photos&q=Easter#i=0&c=photos&q=Easter

Just a question about sailing on Lake Travis. When sailing, do you hit the large words "Proof" that seem to be everywhere? Does it damage the boats? Where do they come from? Is it considered a form of pollution?

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8 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Poor guy.... I wonder if he will make it until August 1

 

17 minutes ago, tillerman said:

A few of him will probably survive.

LOL, are you suggesting there are Cannttuppets?

And you do realize that absent a settlement this is going to drag into litigation and years and years of internet debate and fun.   A yes vote and no settlement brings forth the lawyers and a no vote brings forth yessers calls for another vote!  He needs to keep going well past August 1.

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12 hours ago, tillerman said:

This is a fun course if you like reaching legs.

Here is another one (at bottom right). Mind you, this image is from 1990, from the "KatManDu Laser Regatta" of the "Philadelphia Laserfleet". You are looking at the first trapezoid course ever, I think.

 

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A brief timeline of significant events

  • 1969/70 Bruce Kirby (designer), Ian Bruce (Builder) and Hans Fogh (sailmaker) conceived, designed and built a boat called the "Weekender" with "TGIF" (Thank God Its Friday) on its sail, for a competition run by One Design and Offshore Yachtsman magazine.
  • 1971 Branded the Laser, launched at the New York boat show, production began
  • 1973 The Laser became an International Class, and established contracts governing its production
  • 1970s to 2006 The Laser trademark was registered for various territories, resulting in (2019):
    • Performance Sailcraft Japan (Japan, Korea)
    • Performance Sailcraft Australia (New Zealand, Australia and Pacific)
    • Velum (Europe, North America, South America, Asia)
  • 1996 The Laser was first raced at the Olympics
  • 1998 An agreement was reached between ILCA and Performance Sailcraft Europe (Now Laser Performance) to use the Laser trademark for events and ILCA operations
  • 2006 Class 41 registration (Sports) of Laser trademark, now owned by Velum. (This is a different classification to the use on the boat and covers how ILCA use the Laser trademark).
  • 2008 Bruce Kirby attempted to retire by selling his interests to Global Sailing
  • 4 March 2013 Bruce Kirby Inc took Laser Performance to court for nonpayment of royalties.
  • 16 May 2016 World Sailing advised of potential anti trust issues relating to Olympic classes
  • 23 December 2016 Velum issued a notice to ILCA to say they would no long be able to use the Laser trademark without signing a new agreement. The new agreement contained new clauses which the ILCA objected to, and the ILCA refused to sign the new agreement.
  • 23 December 2016 Laser Performance refused to allow ILCA to perform annual inspections
  • November 2018 World Sailing forms their new Olympic Equipment Selection Policy
  • November 2018 Discussions with Laser trademark owners begin
  • February 2019 ILCA resolved to change the rules if the trademark owners could not reach agreement.
  • 27 March 2019 ILCA removed Laser Performance as an approved builder
  • May 2019 World Sailing ratified their new Olympic Equipment Selection Policy, and selected the Laser for the 2024 Olympics provided they could make the necessary changes by 1 August 2019.
  • 30 June 2019 Laser Performance announced that they had signed the Section 41 trademark agreement (Sports use) which meant the the ILCA could continue using the Laser trademark.
  • 1 July 2019 With the Laser trademark holders not reaching agreement, ILCA began the rule change ballot. In order to succeed, two thirds must vote "yes".

---

Keen to hear of any errors or significant omissions.

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