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The problem is obvious. PSA and a bunch of others want to make more money.  And lemmings have lots of disposable income from which they can be separated in the name of Laser or whatever ILCA is calling it now.

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The cost of misinformation As an ILCA World Council member, I am alarmed at some "news stories" in the The Sailor's Voice (Facebook), specifically those posted by Jean-Pierre Kiekens. His comments

https://www.sailing.org/news/90895.php#.YHkHCy2ZNN0 Laser Radial sailor Nethra Kumanan has become the first ever female Indian sailor to qualify for the Olympic Games.

And edition 40 of our 6 hour laser relay race (you switch every lap with your team mate) is close to having 40 boats (80 sailors). All that on a tiny lake in the south of Amsterdam. If you read D

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I sailed a laser for 20 years before I had enough of the rudder and the rubbish/unforgiving rig problems . If the Australian rigs gain traction on this side of the pond I would be a laser sailor again .

 

On the other hand I wouldn’t give the Laser Performance rig the time of day.

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I like the ARC rig for Grand Masters.

Generally speaking Masters have a bit more money to spend on their boats and would welcome something that makes the boat a bit easier to sail.  Also it looks very cool.  It is the kind of upgrade that could tempt me back into racing Lasers.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

I like the ARC rig for Grand Masters.

Generally speaking Masters have a bit more money to spend on their boats and would welcome something that makes the boat a bit easier to sail.  Also it looks very cool.  It is the kind of upgrade that could tempt me back into racing Lasers.

Do you mean the arc or the c rig?  

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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Do you mean the arc or the c rig?  

Shhhh.  He is fishing.  Nibble but don't take the bait LOL.

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5 hours ago, Xeon said:

I sailed a laser for 20 years before I had enough of the rudder and the rubbish/unforgiving rig problems . If the Australian rigs gain traction on this side of the pond I would be a laser sailor again .

 

On the other hand I wouldn’t give the Laser Performance rig the time of day.

 

5 hours ago, IPLore said:

I like the ARC rig for Grand Masters.

Generally speaking Masters have a bit more money to spend on their boats and would welcome something that makes the boat a bit easier to sail.  Also it looks very cool.  It is the kind of upgrade that could tempt me back into racing Lasers.


There you go.

Xeon and IPLore have spoken.

The new rigs are the way to lure disgruntled ex-Laser sailors back into the class.
 

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18 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Do you mean the arc or the c rig?  

I would like to try them both out myself.

I would certainly take the arc rig seriously. From the video, the design team includes one of the leading rig engineers in the world, Scott Ferguson, + sailmakers and designers Jud Smith (who besides being one of the nicest people in the world of sail making also brings some sail design magic to any one design class he touches)  and Richard B .  The spars and components built by Harken UK  look like they are really high quality fittings.  

So , yes, I would very much like to try the arc  and the c rig. I would not start with a bias .

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On 10/5/2019 at 4:19 AM, Gouvernail said:

Design an entirely new toy that has all the good characteristics of a Laser but is easy to build, And much more durable.

offer a “core charge” on Lasers traded in.

publicly shred those Lasers. 
 

promote promote promote 

 

 

I think you are forecasting the future ………

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On 8/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, tillerman said:
 
  1. Improved quality for cost
     Now with composites, technology has for the most part solved the durability question. The composite spars are superior in every way to the alloy equipment. The sail design is important too. A square head reduces the loading put on the spars, which leads to longer spar life. Fully battened sails last longer. (My understanding is that Dacron is more durable and forgiving than composites.) 


Totally agree. You will never look back.
 

 

Fun is as fun does.

TorchedFlamingo-sail-v3.jpg

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On 10/6/2019 at 4:33 AM, IPLore said:

I like the ARC rig for Grand Masters.

Generally speaking Masters have a bit more money to spend on their boats and would welcome something that makes the boat a bit easier to sail.  Also it looks very cool.  It is the kind of upgrade that could tempt me back into racing Lasers.

So GMs need to buy one rig for regattas, and also keep updating their old rig for club racing?

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From this side of the pond these arguments are interesting but less valid. Probably well over 90% of dinghy sailing in this tiny island  on any day is yardstick racing . So weither I turn up with a laser, radial, 4.7, c5, c6, c8 or arc has very little effect on my enjoyment of sailing/racing. Only a very small number of sailors do open meeting to class race and they will continue to do so however many rigs there are.

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1 hour ago, Xeon said:

From this side of the pond these arguments are interesting but less valid. Probably well over 90% of dinghy sailing in this tiny island  on any day is yardstick racing . So weither I turn up with a laser, radial, 4.7, c5, c6, c8 or arc has very little effect on my enjoyment of sailing/racing. Only a very small number of sailors do open meeting to class race and they will continue to do so however many rigs there are.

You mean Aeros can race Lasers?  Sacrilege!!

And @tillerman - @Foredeck Shufflehas a kid sailing with him in that boat and that for sure is a rocking good thing.

So is this thread now absolutely positively NOT Laser?

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Making the replica sails like Rooster, Intensity, etc. legal (and for the same price do the same with replica foils), and allowing (not imposing) lighter composite masts. would do it for me...

That would push the class were I live more than anything else.

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

As we near the close of the 2019 D12 regatta season it looks like we'll end with a bang!  45 Lasers registered as of today for the Midlands Regatta this weekend in Columbia, SC.  

With the current head count we will have had 109 skippers compete in at least 1 of our 7 District events this year.  

A record year for the District!

Figured this belonged in the Absolutely, Positively Laser thread.

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For me, one of the biggest disconnects is to consider the Laser class as the "equipment" used for an event referred to "One Person Dinghy".

For example, this, from World Sailing:
"Council also approved the quota for The Hague 2022 Sailing World Championships where 1,220 athletes will sail in 830 boats. The Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy fleets will be the largest with 120 boats respectively. The next largest will be the Men's and Women's Windsurfer with 100, followed by the Mixed Two Person Dinghy, Men's Skiff, Women's Skiff, Mixed Multihull and Mixed Kiteboard on 70. The smallest fleet will be the Mixed Offshore Keelboat with 40 boats."

This does not reflect reality, rather is a made up thinking imposed, perhaps to justify the regular changing of "equipment" with the disciplines at World Sailing and Olympic events.

In my view, it is as appropriate for a new one design class to be introduced to sailing at the Olympic level as it would be to make up and introduce a new racquet sport. While it is possible to create new disciplines, isn't the Olympics is meant to find the best athletes in existing sports?

In fact, each one design class is its own discipline within the sport of sailing. Each class has a natural life, and it is its popularity that dictates whether or not the class becomes a national or international class. Olympic classes are in my view best chosen from the pool of international classes.

Recently, we have seen classes being created. While there have been some successes (49er, Narca 17), their success has not been at club level. Further, they have at the cost of classes like the Tornado.

Only the Laser class has successfully become a class used at all levels of sailing. In many ways, the class is the only class which connects grass root sailing with Olympic sailing. It is my hope that other classes achieve similar levels of ubiquity, that the focus of World Sailing becomes as more about growing the sport at club level than focusing on creating new classes and contests at Olympic level. 

World Sailing needs to support sailing in various local, national and international classes at all levels - and what that looks like is helping existing classes grow, by encouraging participation at more local level. Instead, we see our governing body focus on introducing classes and contests. This is in competition with national contests, and is a step away from the elite competing more regularly in their own countries. These new contests like the World Cup series are at times poorly attended, and is a poor use of World Sailing's resources. Instead, a requirement could be for all Olympic athletes to compete in their country of origin at least five regattas per year. (For some classes, this would require the establishment of local fleets). 

There is a concerning practice of countries qualifying for the Olympics, then not sending competitors. This practice is not good for the sport, as Member Nation Authorities attempt to boost their percentage of Olympic medals per competitors. This concerning practice is devastating for competitors who have dedicated years to the sport, and negatively impacts on local fleets.

If there truly is to be a progression from beginner levels (both junior and adult) to elite levels, then reconnecting our governing body with the grass roots of sailing is an imperative.

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14 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

For me, one of the biggest disconnects is to consider the Laser class as the "equipment" used for an event referred to "One Person Dinghy".

What would you call it?

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14 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

That depends which "it" you refer to. What part of what I said do you need clarifying?

It appears you are taking exception to calling the Laser “equipment used for an event referred to (as) one person dinghy.” How would you prefer this phrased?

Edited by bill4
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12 minutes ago, bill4 said:

It appears you are taking exception to calling the Laser equipment used for an event referred to (as) one person dinghy. How would you prefer this phrased?

No, that is not what I said at all. 

In my view, it is as appropriate for a new one design class to be introduced to sailing at the Olympic level as it would be to make up and introduce a new racquet sport. While it is possible to create new disciplines, isn't the Olympics is meant to find the best athletes in existing disciplines?

In fact, each one design class is its own discipline within the sport of sailing. Each class has a natural life, and it is its popularity that dictates whether or not the class becomes a national or international class. Olympic classes are in my view best chosen from the pool of international classes.

The disconnect is to consider the Laser class as the "equipment" used for an event referred to "One Person Dinghy" as  this does not reflect reality, rather is a made up thinking imposed, perhaps to justify the regular changing of "equipment" with the disciplines at World Sailing and Olympic events.

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43 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The disconnect is to consider the Laser class as the "equipment" used for an event referred to "One Person Dinghy" as  this does not reflect reality...

Seems pretty real to me. Although I believe some may argue the descriptor “ILCA dinghy” is even more real.

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2 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Seems pretty real to me. Although I believe some may argue the descriptor “ILCA dinghy” is even more real.

Thank you Bill for your best efforts to make a positive contribution to this topic.

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My pleasure. Although if I had a clue what you were trying to say, I can safely say I would provide even more of a contribution. Are you suggesting that the IOC use the names of the sailboat class as opposed to describing the activity?

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1 minute ago, bill4 said:

My pleasure. Although if I had a clue what you were trying to say, I can safely say I would provide even more of a contribution. Are you suggesting that the IOC use the names of the sailboat class as opposed to describing the activity?

No, I'm not suggesting that.

I made the same post on the Facebook page 'The Sailor's Voice' which appears to be widely understood and have received positive feedback.

Thank you for your best efforts in your attempts to understand what I said. 

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21 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

No, I'm not suggesting that.

I made the same post on the Facebook page 'The Sailor's Voice' which appears to be widely understood and have received positive feedback.

Thank you for your best efforts in your attempts to understand what I said. 

Anytime.

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7 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

In fact, each one design class is its own discipline within the sport of sailing.

I think this is the most important sentence in what Bruce is trying to say. 

Instead of thinking of the Laser as a means to an end in running a regatta for a "One Person Dinghy", the Laser or any other Olympic class should be chosen based on it's own merits and popularity to represent the pinnacle competition for the vast majority of racing sailors. 

This is the opposite to the Nacra 17 - a class designed solely to fill an Olympic 'event' equipment, with the intention of showcasing the sport of sailing, but only demonstrating what .001% of racing sailors do 

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In other news D12 just finished our 2019 season at the Midlands Regatta in Columbia, SC, (results can be found on Regatta Network).  We pulled 52 Lasers to the event.  30 full rigs and 21 Radials, (nearly 100% Jr sailors in that fleet).  The results were super tight over 4 races and the annual District Championship Series award was decided by 1 point between 1st and 3rd places.  It was a massive family event with parents and kids both sailing boats!  The camping and after race party was awesome as well.

D12 had 116 different skippers show up to sail in at least 1 of our 7 regattas this year.  With 16 full rigs and 10 radials sailing in 3 or more events. 

While everyone is worried about the sky falling we're sailing and just had a record growth year!  Come sail in D12!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Victoria (Australia) State Laser championships are on this week in Melbourne.

The astute among you might recognise Melbourne as the location of the Worlds this (southern) summer. And the Australian Nationals, also this summer. Huge season in Melbourne this year.

This photo was posted by Vic Laser Association's Facebook page this afternoon.

Is that a class-legal ILCA sail I see there among the class-legal Laser (TM) sails?

The new world order...

Interesting to have an ILCA here in Australia, where we still have a local trademark-owning Laser (TM) manufacturer. But I guess PSA is allowed to sell class legal boats and hardware under whatever brand names they and the governing body have agreed to.

FB_IMG_1574491709308.jpg

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  • 2 months later...
24 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

What would be your recommendation for a tent camp site if attending the midwinters in Clearwater? 

Check out state parks.  Savannah has one for tent camping and has killer cabins for $130/night, but they book up way in advance.

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Yes. I thought someone with local knowledge might have the inside scoop. It really is a shame that people can’t stay at the club. I remember camping at the Midwinters years ago. Any idea why that is no longer allowed?

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44 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Yes. I thought someone with local knowledge might have the inside scoop. It really is a shame that people can’t stay at the club. I remember camping at the Midwinters years ago. Any idea why that is no longer allowed?

No.  I've never been there.

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16 minutes ago, Wess said:

Don't you folks need to rename this thread with the ILCA moniker? 

No.

The Laser class hasn't changed its name. (There are some people trying to promote the absurd notion that the Laser class is dead, because Lasers use ILCA branding).

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What a difference a day makes at the Laser Worlds in Melbourne.

Phil Buhl and Jean Baptiste Bernaz are looking on form and hard to beat. (Jean Baptiste has a 43 discard so could easily slip down the list.)

Image may contain: text

 

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Sadly, in most parts of the world today there is no supplier of new class-legal Lasers. Until  that situation changes, the only option for most people who want to buy a new boat to participate in ILCA sanctioned regattas is to buy an ILCA.

Does that mean that "Laser" as a brand name for new boats is effectively dead? I guess it depends on your point of view...

 

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17 hours ago, tillerman said:

Sadly, in most parts of the world today there is no supplier of new class-legal Lasers. Until  that situation changes, the only option for most people who want to buy a new boat to participate in ILCA sanctioned regattas is to buy an ILCA.

An interesting alternate narrative to push.

Right now, because of recent changes, both builders can supply Lasers anywhere on the globe. There are more builders in the pipeline.

What part of "anywhere" don't you get Tillerman?

I guess what you are saying is that you are frustrated because you think you can't buy a new Laser? However you can buy a new Laser in the US - and get it shipped to your home. (There is a disconnect here - Tillerman is not looking to buy a new Laser.) 

..."buy an ILCA" - is an interesting turn of phrase. ILCA branded Lasers are still Lasers. But keep pushing the alternate narrative. I am confident that a minority will continue to swallow these alternate narratives.

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6 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 

Right now, because of recent changes, both builders can supply Lasers anywhere on the globe. There are more builders in the pipeline.

What part of "anywhere" don't you get Tillerman?

 

Hi Bruce,

I guess you can add Sosoomi and me to the list.

I dont get it.

How can PSA supply Lasers in the USA or Europe?

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

How can PSA supply Lasers in the USA or Europe?

This ad by PSA in the Fall 2019 issue of The Laser Sailor is instructive. it appears to be offering some charter boats at various events in Florida and the sale of those charter boats after the events. But what boats are they offering?

The brand name of the boat is prominently displayed - ILCA.

A reference to PSA's credibility as a boat builder refers to their history as "Kirby boat builders."

There is absolutely no reference in the ad to the boats offered as being "Lasers." I think we all know why.

Screen_Shot_2020-02-16_at_9_36.33_PM.thumb.png.2b26a88b2ce23c3c88b55307eb75e6cb.png


And here is a screen shot from the psasailing.com website of some boats being sold by PSA in Australia. The boats are specifically referred to as ILCA 4, ILCA 6 and ILCA 7. You can also buy an ILCA hull only. 

1039687377_ScreenShot2020-02-16at9_45_19PM.thumb.png.41a6fa541b5cd5f56c948ed8f4fbc120.png

Surely it is very clear that PSA are selling ILCAs both in the Australian domestic market and internationally.

Indeed all the boats supplied by PSA for the recently completed World Championship in Australia were ILCAs.

yysw280654.jpg
 

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Philipp Buhl is the world champion of whatever anybody wants to call this boat, ILCA or Laser. Do not deny him of this incredible athletic feat or tarnish it with all this petty bullshit. 

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7 hours ago, tillerman said:

Indeed all the boats supplied by PSA for the recently completed World Championship in Australia were ILCAs.


yysw280654.jpg
 

The event sails for an ILCA event had the ILCA logo on them.

Has anybody looked at the rest of the boat? Any Laser starbursts on any of the rigging?

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5 hours ago, bill4 said:

Philipp Buhl is the world champion of whatever anybody wants to call this boat, ILCA or Laser. Do not deny him of this incredible athletic feat or tarnish it with all this petty bullshit. 

The kid sailing a Laser off a beach just for fun and learning deserves just as much respect; not that ILCA leadership gives a hoot about him or her. So come on nobody took anything away from Buhl. Just pointing out ILCA name games. 

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5 hours ago, bill4 said:

Philipp Buhl is the world champion of whatever anybody wants to call this boat, ILCA or Laser. Do not deny him of this incredible athletic feat or tarnish it with all this petty bullshit. 



Congratulations to Herr Bull on his convincing win. A win is a win whatever the boat is called.

But the trademarks on the boats that Mr. Kirby designed are by no means a petty matter. Who would have thought that two words in tiny writing on the back of the cockpit could be worth $6.8 million?  I am pretty sure PSA are too smart to try sailing boats using any Laser trademarks in the parts of he world where they don't have the rights to those trademarks. That's why they are calling the boats ILCAs.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSherxQpSzVjk4gGbrMYgO

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3 hours ago, OneGoat said:

The event sails for an ILCA event had the ILCA logo on them.

Has anybody looked at the rest of the boat? Any Laser starbursts on any of the rigging?

And yet on the ILCA website the event is referred to as the Laser Worlds. In all seriousness, can any of the esteemed counselors in the room explain this?

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It’s been explained any number of times. If you don’t understand by now you never will.

Unless of course you just want to go over old ground again and again and again. 
 

Which is not uncommon on here to be honest  ;) ;) :D

Edited by Xeon
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2 hours ago, tillerman said:



Congratulations to Herr Bull on his convincing win. A win is a win whatever the boat is called.

But the trademarks on the boats that Mr. Kirby designed are by no means a petty matter. Who would have thought that two words in tiny writing on the back of the cockpit could be worth $6.8 million?  I am pretty sure PSA are too smart to try sailing boats using any Laser trademarks in the parts of he world where they don't have the rights to those trademarks. That's why they are calling the boats ILCAs.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSherxQpSzVjk4gGbrMYgO

Do you have Mr. Kirby's permission to claim that he designed the ILCA dinghy? :D

That is a bold claim my friend

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There are several other threads dedicated to ILCA/Laser bashing, which is good sport for some. This is the rogue thread for those who want to toss in the odd compliment, thumbs up, prop, or generally other positive comment about the boat. 

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