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Flying your ensign while racing


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I once read In the RRS, it is a "prescription" (recommendation) that the ensign not be flown while racing. I've looked and can no longer find the reference.

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1 hour ago, Tax Man said:

We have races where as boat that has withdrawn is required to fly an ensign to show she is no longer racing.

This was always normal practice in the Solent.  "Go home!  Put up your ensign!  Shame" was barked at times from Daring helmsmen in Cowes.

Finishing a long offshore and wanting to fly the colours in a foreign finishing port, I have occasionally asked the race committee by radio for permission.  It's usually polite to do so, and as usually granted.

Flag etiquette nowadays is so loose that I have no idea if any of these things apply any more.

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United States Ensign
United States Ensign by FlagandBanner.com 
The U.S. ensign is proper for all U.S. yachts, without reservation. This is "Old Glory," with 50 stars and 13 stripes. All boats, when at anchor, fly it from the stern staff, if so equipped, only while occupied. It is flown from the stern staff of powerboats underway on inland waters. If the powerboat has a mast and gaff, the proper display is at the gaff. On a sportsfisherman, where a stern staff would be in the way of the action, the practice is to fly the ensign from a halyard rigged just behind the tuna tower.

On Marconi-rigged sailboats under sail alone, the practice for many years had been to fly the ensign from the leech of the aftermost sail, approximately 2/3 the length of the leech above the clew. This puts it in about the same position it would occupy if the boat were gaff-rigged, and on gaff-rigged sailboats it is proper to fly the ensign from the peak of the aftermost gaff.

The advent of the modern high-aspect-ratio rig, with the boom end well inboard of the stern, has made it is possible to fly the ensign from the stern staff of a sailboat underway, and this is now an accepted practice. However, the ensign should never be displayed while the boat is racing. Under power alone, or at anchor or made fast, the ensign should be flown from the stern staff of all sailboats. If an overhanging boom requires that the staff be off center, it should preferably be on the starboard side.

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

United States Ensign
United States Ensign by FlagandBanner.com 
The U.S. ensign is proper for all U.S. yachts, without reservation. This is "Old Glory," with 50 stars and 13 stripes. All boats, when at anchor, fly it from the stern staff, if so equipped, only while occupied. It is flown from the stern staff of powerboats underway on inland waters. If the powerboat has a mast and gaff, the proper display is at the gaff. On a sportsfisherman, where a stern staff would be in the way of the action, the practice is to fly the ensign from a halyard rigged just behind the tuna tower.

On Marconi-rigged sailboats under sail alone, the practice for many years had been to fly the ensign from the leech of the aftermost sail, approximately 2/3 the length of the leech above the clew. This puts it in about the same position it would occupy if the boat were gaff-rigged, and on gaff-rigged sailboats it is proper to fly the ensign from the peak of the aftermost gaff.

The advent of the modern high-aspect-ratio rig, with the boom end well inboard of the stern, has made it is possible to fly the ensign from the stern staff of a sailboat underway, and this is now an accepted practice. However, the ensign should never be displayed while the boat is racing. Under power alone, or at anchor or made fast, the ensign should be flown from the stern staff of all sailboats. If an overhanging boom requires that the staff be off center, it should preferably be on the starboard side.

Happy now VWAP?

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We were having a little chat on FB after a fellow with one of my boasts posted pics of him racing the boat with the ensign flying.

I told him that was a "no no".

He came back with that it's OK so long as you fly the ensign off the backstay and not a pole.

I thought to myself WTF? I'd never heard f that. So I decided to do some research here on SA. Thanks for all the help.

 

 

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I was taught it was improper to fly ensign while racing.

However, it was good form to have one for sailing out to the race course at international regattas, so we had little ones we could either fly from the backstay or f4rom a staff suction cupped to the deck.  One more thiong to do at the Warning Gun.

SHC

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28 minutes ago, VWAP said:

I never get "that excited" when racing

Evan when the Cocomoddorres twinne redheade dauhteres our strippeng off they geare and asksing you u belowe forre cocktalles?                            :)

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2 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Evan when the Cocomoddorres twinne redheade dauhteres our strippeng off they geare and asksing you u belowe forre cocktalles?                            :)

Its "flying" in the cabin for a few seconds  half a minute between races. 

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44 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

We were having a little chat on FB after a fellow with one of my boasts posted pics of him racing the boat with the ensign flying.

I told him that was a "no no".

He came back with that it's OK so long as you fly the ensign off the backstay and not a pole.

I thought to myself WTF? I'd never heard f that. So I decided to do some research here on SA. Thanks for all the help.

From what I can tell the idea of flying off the back of the sail comes from older boats where the boom went past the stern of the boat, the privilege position would then be the end of the gaff,

image.thumb.png.430125d7bd4989b4f5555f21668f9796.png

I don't think its ok for racing.

image.png.2e26e2c0865bdd6054c256c3ac6adb03.png

I think britannia is racing in this picture. :).

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Agree that it is not flown while racing. Only exception I recall was on a Wednesday nite beercan shortly after 9-11 when the race committee suggested that participants fly the flag for that one day.

I don't always have the flag on during my normal sailing, but I do try to show it if I know there is a regatta nearby and a chance that I may be in the vicinity of racers, to signal them that they don't need to consider me in their tactical decisions.

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4 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

United States Ensign
United States Ensign by FlagandBanner.com 
The U.S. ensign is proper for all U.S. yachts, without reservation. This is "Old Glory," with 50 stars and 13 stripes. All boats, when at anchor, fly it from the stern staff, if so equipped, only while occupied. It is flown from the stern staff of powerboats underway on inland waters. If the powerboat has a mast and gaff, the proper display is at the gaff. On a sportsfisherman, where a stern staff would be in the way of the action, the practice is to fly the ensign from a halyard rigged just behind the tuna tower.

On Marconi-rigged sailboats under sail alone, the practice for many years had been to fly the ensign from the leech of the aftermost sail, approximately 2/3 the length of the leech above the clew. This puts it in about the same position it would occupy if the boat were gaff-rigged, and on gaff-rigged sailboats it is proper to fly the ensign from the peak of the aftermost gaff.

The advent of the modern high-aspect-ratio rig, with the boom end well inboard of the stern, has made it is possible to fly the ensign from the stern staff of a sailboat underway, and this is now an accepted practice. However, the ensign should never be displayed while the boat is racing. Under power alone, or at anchor or made fast, the ensign should be flown from the stern staff of all sailboats. If an overhanging boom requires that the staff be off center, it should preferably be on the starboard side.

Source? (Did you write this or did you find it somewhere like a Boy Scout Handbook?)

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6 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

I just drank a 500ml Red Bull and this thread still put me to sleep, fucking christ, this hands down wins the most boring thread ever on SA thread.

Is this better?

 

 

 

7884da3fd8c5b26cab8c84f7fa1df8bd.jpg

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Always makes me laugh when some 'Murkan is bleating on about respecting their flag, while their stars and stripes shorts are rubbing their sweaty nutsack. Not suggesting the lady above has a nutsack, but still, you get the idea.

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4 minutes ago, PaulinVictoria said:

Always makes me laugh when some 'Murkan is bleating on about respecting their flag, while their stars and stripes shorts are rubbing their sweaty nutsack. Not suggesting the lady above has a nutsack, but still, you get the idea.

4c139f4776977971c65daed23ee5bcdc_400x400

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At least on French boats, you only have to fly it when you are outside French territorial waters in certain circumstances :

  • Moored in a foreign place on a Sunday or a bank holiday
  • At sea when in sight of a warship
  • When entering a harbour

I don't know if there is a rule about it but it is accepted that flying it during a race means that you are abandoning. IME Racing boats don't fly it when they are racing oversea, I am not sure if that's legal or not.

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I have always understood from racing in the UK and here in Oz, that flying an ensign means you are not racing. If you are racing and you put up an ensign, it is a signal that you have retired from the race.

Ensigns vary a lot, and there are usually different ensigns for different types of craft. The UK has three, as does Australia.

A red ensign is for merchant and leisure craft generally, a white ensign is for navy ships and the blue ensign is used by organisations and their affiliated yachts who have a “Royal” warrant. The blue ensign is often “defaced” and usually requires the flying of a pennant as well.

The general custom is that you never fly an ensign before dawn or after sunset. Warranted ensigns have even more specific rules of etiquette, and theoretically at least, you can lose your warrant if you abuse their etiquette requirements, and is considered poor form in any case. If in foreign waters, it is customary to also fly amidships a small ensign or pennant of that country.

I don’t know the US situation, but the flag etiquette section of the US Power Squadron seems to spell it all out, even though they have incorrect ensigns for UK and Australia in the context we are discussing:

https://www.usps.org/f_stuff/etiquett.html

908F7EFF-4BEA-44D9-990F-25925404C1B0.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

At least on French boats, you only have to fly it when you are outside French territorial waters in certain circumstances :

  • Moored in a foreign place on a Sunday or a bank holiday
  • At sea when in sight of a warship
  • When entering a harbour

I don't know if there is a rule about it but it is accepted that flying it during a race means that you are abandoning. IME Racing boats don't fly it when they are racing oversea, I am not sure if that's legal or not.

French+Bikini+flag.JPG

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15 hours ago, Blitz said:

When flying the ensign from a lifted Ford f250 is it proper eticate to fly it from the forward or aft bed stake hole?  Does it matter if it's  on the port or starboard side?:D

either side is fine, unless flown in tandem with: CSA battle flag;  POW/MIA banner; or Gadsden flag. Then the ensign is flow in the port forward stake hole. Likewise when flown with Gadsden Cute:

057.jpeg

Okay, so we've established sailboats do not display an ensign while racing. The more interesting question is: Why?

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As an RC, we made and communicated an exception for the next race after 9/11 as a sign of solidarity (evening of 9/13). 

Just about everyone was flying it that evening.

And and skies were still quiet with a lone F-16 just north of Boston.

Hopefully we never have to do that again..

 

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From Saturday For 7 days I shall, At the club house, Raise the Ensign and the club Flag up at 08:00 (Ensign up first as the senior flag) And lower it at 20:00, Club flag down first of course.

From Monday to Friday, the Cannon will be fired at 08:00 as well. If  it's late we get people phoning up that we were late. Hence my radio watch comes into use...

Club Members are required not to wear the ensign on their boats during racing, in theory the Square burgee should also come down at the end of racing and be replaced by a triangular burgee. However, There is no mention of the above in The RYA notes below.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/flag-etiquette.aspx

 

So I assume it's convention, and.. Who wants a big flag at the back causing drag during racing..

 

 

2596r[1].jpg

hscflag[1].png

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On 7/28/2019 at 12:24 AM, Blitz said:

When flying the ensign from a lifted Ford f250 is it proper eticate to fly it from the forward or aft bed stake hole?  Does it matter if it's  on the port or starboard side?:D

Actually from the non-functional roll bar bolted in the bed.

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13 hours ago, The Q said:

From Saturday For 7 days I shall, At the club house, Raise the Ensign and the club Flag up at 08:00 (Ensign up first as the senior flag) And lower it at 20:00, Club flag down first of course.

From Monday to Friday, the Cannon will be fired at 08:00 as well. If  it's late we get people phoning up that we were late. Hence my radio watch comes into use...

Club Members are required not to wear the ensign on their boats during racing, in theory the Square burgee should also come down at the end of racing and be replaced by a triangular burgee. However, There is no mention of the above in The RYA notes below.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/flag-etiquette.aspx

 

So I assume it's convention, and.. Who wants a big flag at the back causing drag during racing..

 

 

2596r[1].jpg

hscflag[1].png

FWIW, ensigns are not meant to be flown ashore, unless they are“warranted” as a club/organisation flag.The red ensign is a general purpose ensign to be flown by non naval vessels, including vessels who have “warranted” ensign entitlement, but choose not to fly them.

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30 minutes ago, Essex said:

I believe that's taken from Chapman's Piloting

Good to know. The wording in mine is different, though the message is similar. 

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On 7/27/2019 at 1:18 AM, Ajax said:

I once read In the RRS, it is a "prescription" (recommendation) that the ensign not be flown while racing. I've looked and can no longer find the reference.

US Sailing Prescription to the 2013-2016 RRS

Rule 56 Add rule 56

56 FLAGS US Sailing prescribes that a boat shall not display flags except for signaling. A boat shall not be penalized for breaking this rule without prior warning and opportunity to make correction.

No longer included in the 2017-21 Prescriptions.

 

And Prescriptions are rules, not recommendations

Definitions:  Rules

(c) the prescriptions of the national authority, unless they are changed by the notice of race or sailing instructions in compliance with the national authority’s prescription, if any, to rule 88.2;

 

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8 hours ago, Sidecar said:

FWIW, ensigns are not meant to be flown ashore, unless they are“warranted” as a club/organisation flag.The red ensign is a general purpose ensign to be flown by non naval vessels, including vessels who have “warranted” ensign entitlement, but choose not to fly them.

My club has flown the Red Ensign  for 109 years, several other clubs I know of a similar age also fly the Red Ensign including one where Princess Anne has sailed. The clubs that have the warrant, fly the Blue Ensign.

 

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Anyone ever dipped the ensign to a navy vessel and had the salute returned ? 

A skipper I once sailed with claimed he had done this to a submarine at periscope depth which then surfaced, hoisted and dipped back at him then went back to business (a story I am highly sceptical of but who knows).

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-nvtd.html#dip

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When the Royal Yacht Britannia was in service and at anchor, there was always a seaman in attendance at the flagstaff, and any vessel which passed and dipped its ensign, would get a dipped acknowledgement. Done it many times at Cowes, whilst not racing, of course.....

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17 hours ago, The Q said:

My club has flown the Red Ensign  for 109 years, several other clubs I know of a similar age also fly the Red Ensign including one where Princess Anne has sailed. The clubs that have the warrant, fly the Blue Ensign.

Your clubhouse must float.....

Your excellent link to RYA flag etiquette makes no mention of the use of the undefaced red ensign on land, and nor do these:

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-nvtd.html#dip

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_ensign

You could always formally check with the president of the RYA?

Edit:

Better still, why not apply for a defaced red ensign using your club emblem?

Edited by Sidecar
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9 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Your clubhouse must float.....

 

Actually it's sinking, though on land.. the club is on a small island, the ground is always sinking, so the clubhouse is on stacks of old railway sleepers effectively floating on the mud. At the moment one end of the clubhouse is about 4 inches lower than the other, and we've been told the clubhouse as it is has less than ten years to live. Our planning authorities want us to replace the current building with one on Steel piles and have refused to allow us to carry one as we are..

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5 hours ago, The Q said:

Actually it's sinking, though on land.. the club is on a small island, the ground is always sinking, so the clubhouse is on stacks of old railway sleepers effectively floating on the mud. At the moment one end of the clubhouse is about 4 inches lower than the other, and we've been told the clubhouse as it is has less than ten years to live. Our planning authorities want us to replace the current building with one on Steel piles and have refused to allow us to carry one as we are..

So they want you to spend so much money that you go out of existence? Wouldn't be the first time for something like that.

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At least we had ten years notice, 5 of them have gone while legal technicalities were sorted out over control of various bits of the mainland (our car park). Since  it happened, some fees have been going up to increase the club pot of money. Though we are still one of the cheapest clubs in the area with annual family membership being around £120.

The same planning authority designated our club area for social use, ie a sailing club, so that would make it difficult for anyone else to buy up the land and turn it into housing..

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On 7/26/2019 at 9:42 AM, Somebody Else said:

IF you fly an ensign while racing -- and that's a big "if" -- It should be flown off the leech of the aftermost sail, 2/3rds the way up. As near as I've ever seen, no yacht is set up for that.

 

 

That's how we flew it on the gaff rigged wooden schooners I grew up on, but we rarely raced.

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6 hours ago, The Q said:

Actually it's sinking, though on land.. the club is on a small island, the ground is always sinking, so the clubhouse is on stacks of old railway sleepers effectively floating on the mud. At the moment one end of the clubhouse is about 4 inches lower than the other, and we've been told the clubhouse as it is has less than ten years to live. Our planning authorities want us to replace the current building with one on Steel piles and have refused to allow us to carry one as we are..

You have pointed out that Ely cathedral uses the same method and is still standing?

Or that when the build the M5 across sedgemoor they eventually gave up on piling and floated the whole think on a raft? (possible rural myth:).

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On 7/26/2019 at 9:37 AM, Bob Perry said:

Is it ever "proper" to fly the ensign while you are racing?

Does it matter if you fly it off the backstay or the pole?

 

I have always thought you never flew the ensign while racing.

Can I fly my Trump 2020 flag while racing from the backstay? 

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

The flag, not the boat, but on second thought that might be even better!

Sorry to upset you Liberal douches

NOT!

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11 hours ago, The Q said:

At least we had ten years notice, 5 of them have gone while legal technicalities were sorted out over control of various bits of the mainland (our car park). Since  it happened, some fees have been going up to increase the club pot of money. Though we are still one of the cheapest clubs in the area with annual family membership being around £120.

The same planning authority designated our club area for social use, ie a sailing club, so that would make it difficult for anyone else to buy up the land and turn it into housing..

Norfolk's a happy little place governed by fuckwits at times. I left in '91 - for a variety of reasons - and now live in a tropical 'narco-state'. The grass is always greener etc. 

Q, I appreciate your posts primarily for reasons of nostalgia. My dad still lives at the very end of the Ant. Sometimes I visit, along with my family. We enjoy it, but I wouldn't come back to live. Not necessarily because it's a bad place - it really isn't - but because there is no place for 'returnees' and I couldn't afford it. Also, my wife would hate winter and probably the boredom that accompanies it. 

Ex-Norwich and Paston boy here; Laurence Scott apprentice and one-time Landamores employee ;-) Also was a river cruiser racer way back in the day. #145.

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On 7/30/2019 at 11:58 PM, Sidecar said:

Your clubhouse must float.....

Your excellent link to RYA flag etiquette makes no mention of the use of the undefaced red ensign on land, and nor do these:

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-nvtd.html#dip

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_ensign

You could always formally check with the president of the RYA?

Edit:

Better still, why not apply for a defaced red ensign using your club emblem?

Actually, every club that I’ve ever seen that doesn’t hold a warrant for white, blue, defaced blue or defaced red flies the plain red duster from the gaff of the flagstaff. Here’s the Island Sailing  Club,  Cowes, doing just that.

The chances of getting the MoD to grant new warrants for any new clubs to be allowed to wear a special ensign is about zero.

4ADF4CB9-9168-4798-9E67-DBD0AC4DC0D5.thumb.jpeg.fba60c031e6e143690ff77e630f873b6.jpeg

and Itchenor

11D9E896-407C-41F1-91A8-AD4063870F83.thumb.jpeg.1e17a74bd879bd53e9a33f8f7bb4ae8a.jpeg

 

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4 hours ago, seabell said:

Norfolk's a happy little place governed by fuckwits at times. I left in '91 - for a variety of reasons - and now live in a tropical 'narco-state'. The grass is always greener etc. 

Q, I appreciate your posts primarily for reasons of nostalgia. My dad still lives at the very end of the Ant. Sometimes I visit, along with my family. We enjoy it, but I wouldn't come back to live. Not necessarily because it's a bad place - it really isn't - but because there is no place for 'returnees' and I couldn't afford it. Also, my wife would hate winter and probably the boredom that accompanies it. 

Ex-Norwich and Paston boy here; Laurence Scott apprentice and one-time Landamores employee ;-) Also was a river cruiser racer way back in the day. #145.

RIVER CRUISER 145... that's Smuggler, She's been owned by Gordon Williams for many years, I know him fairly well, He should be sailing her At Horning Regatta  next week as he does every year. Just for your delectaion I shall endeavor to put in some reports on the regatta for you.

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15 hours ago, JohnMB said:

You have pointed out that Ely cathedral uses the same method and is still standing?

Or that when the build the M5 across sedgemoor they eventually gave up on piling and floated the whole think on a raft? (possible rural myth:).

Certainly a great many railway lines were constructed on rafts of brush wood. The most famous  one being the Liverpool and Manchester railway ( opened 15th SEP 1830 and still in use) where it crosses Chat moss.

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For some reason SA is blocking any attempts to edit my posts so I'll add to the pictures above..

https://horning-sailing.club/  the video on the front page shows the regatta course up river from the club for 1.5 miles...

And

The Red Ensign and Club flag flying proudly from the flag pole..

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12 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I'll bet that has a diesel set up for "rolling coal", clouds of dark black sooty smoke......

Yep...and probably rolls coal every time he passes a cyclist.

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I'll bet that has a diesel set up for "rolling coal", clouds of dark black sooty smoke......

Love the "Tea Party" plate.... what Irony the Tea Party died under Trump

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5 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

Yep...and probably rolls coal every time he passes a cyclist.

No, only liberal douches do things like that 

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:

No, only liberal douches do things like that 

Haha. Go on youtubes you can find endless "Trump" or "conservative" or "proud American" trolls dissing cylclists as pussies, fags, sissies, yuppie vacationers taking up a perfectly good country road, slowing down the "local working" pickup truck drivers. They say stuff like "roads are designed for cars" and other such nonsense. Often they have user avatars with TRUMP or some other bullshit. They may not be conservative (obviously not--William Buckley was a Conservative) but they sure aren't Liberal either.

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Here from the horses mouth,... good ol' Tom. 

This goes for the English ruled parts of the world. As for racing, Neither Australia, nor Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Netherlands fly ensigns during racing. Seppos, not sure? I would however love to see an orange boat, with deck painted as a confederate flag, sailed by a bunch of Daisy Duke's!

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXObsUnaLTKzGq48zA0U8

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Yeah, I saw a few, but maybe they chopped some extra footage in from after the race, or maybe some that retired? Dunno, maybe it is common practice in the USofA?

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