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Large Roach Headsails


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Pretty much just an evolution of a Jib Top. The sprit just moves everything forward and torsion cables take the place of headstays.

That said I really loved our J0 with a Blast Reacher and Genoa Staysail combo for Transpac. Moving that area forward really opened the slot.

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The Con you'll hear is that allowing sails like this leads to an arms race. The pro is that for boats like mine that have non-overlapping jibs it makes us competitive on a blast reach and it's a bit easier to handle than an "upwind spinnaker." 

As far as whether PHRF should allow them, of course they should, but the problem is the same they had with code 0's. Most areas penalized the code by -6 or more despite the fact that they had a narrow range and wouldn't be used in 97% of races and so wasn't worth it. Some areas have removed the penalty for carrying a code 0 as long as it measures in as a spinnaker (PHRF-NE is an area that has dropped it). However, it's still not an ideal solution because it is clearly faster in the conditions where you *can* use it.

Multiple rating systems like ORR, ORC and they're club-level derivatives are perfect for this kind of experimentation. I don't know if all boats will have them in 10 years, but as Tom points out, it's really just the evolution of sails that already exist.

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47 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

ORR posted an article stating that in 10 years everyone will have these sails. https://offshoreracingrule.org/blog/63-2019-news/161-not-a-genoa-not-a-spinnaker-it-s-a-tweener

Should PHRF allow the Large Roach Headsails?

What are the Pros and Cons?

con. You would need a piece of sheet metal to stand with the positive leach  shown in their drawings. The picture of the boat shown, shows a slightly hollow leach, (although very little).  if built in something like CZ or firmer stuff, it would need battens, or an amsteel leach cord  to get to their drawings. and battens are not an option. That being said, if you are a frac, and sprit boat, a masthead genoa is a powerful weapon for these conditions.

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Okay here's where the cross over is. If you want to make a tweener sail closer to the wind you are going to lose some of the positive leach illustrated  and according to the description I've read ORR will treat it more like a jib. But, if you allow for more fullness in the shape it will carry the leach profile as illustrated and be treated more as a spinnaker . Thing is you are only allowed one Tweener in you inventory. 

.The weak point as I see it is the super secret ORR formula can't factor in leward sheeting struts. So, we have two problems for ORR. Planing boats have to be put in divisions separate from non planing boats and accounting for wider sheeting angles. Because both are corners that will make fast boats faster.

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So why are they looking at this, and not the much more potent quad, as proposed (and used) by Hugh Welbourn?  They are lovely sails to fly, and don't have all that huge overlap which just adds to heeling, and forces the main to be overtrimmed.

Here on the Infinity 36.

infinity-36-dss-quad-jpg.74046

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The quad would fall within the the tweener inclusion. As, a matter of fact our J0 looks a lot like the quad with a lower clew.

 

.

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28 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

The quad would fall within the the tweener inclusion. As, a matter of fact our J0 looks a lot like the quad with a lower clew.

Yes, it would.  But it would still run foul of that ancient and outdated stipulation that a headsail can only have one clew.  It's about time that they shook that one out.

The quad happily replaces two other sails, so it's a pretty good deal.  And it's easy to trim.  The lower sheet stays pretty well cleated, and the upper one controls power and twist, so is all you need for gust response.

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Article in the link says:

"What are the main benefits of this in-between sail? In the range of approximately 60 to 95 degrees true wind angle, the tweener gives you a bigger, more powerful sail than a genoa and a more efficiently shaped sail than a spinnaker.

Wouldn't it be more useful to quote apparent wind angles, and some apparent wind speeds as well ???

 

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This just in - Sail Maker claims that sail made for narrow band of wing angles is fast at those wind angles.  Rich Dudes agree and line up to by a sail for every 15 degree change in apparent wind.  News at 11.

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A foil is a foil. IMO if it goes on the sprit, its a spinnaker, even if it is upwind. If it goes on the bow, it's a jib, even if it's downwind.

It's a bit pay-to-win, but jibs that maximize point are agony to sail on any reach.

The more headsails you've got, the more decisions you have to make - and the more sail changes you have to do.

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33 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Just curious, what do sails cost these days?  I'm guessing a J35 main is north of 7K?

How big is a ruler?

But, in general, I don't think you'd get any change.

There are a couple on-line sail-reps, who will quota a generic sail - they seem to be about 40% less than the name-brand US lofts. But I don't think you'll get much of an inventory analysis and/or rating optimization package tossed in. I could be wrong.

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On 7/31/2019 at 6:38 PM, Meat Wad said:

ORR posted an article stating that in 10 years everyone will have these sails. https://offshoreracingrule.org/blog/63-2019-news/161-not-a-genoa-not-a-spinnaker-it-s-a-tweener

Should PHRF allow the Large Roach Headsails?

What are the Pros and Cons?

I think we have one of those.  It's supposed to be your typical genoa but it sails like what's described in the article.

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Trog, I've got an old sloop, 32' loa and 25' lwl.  I've sailed big boats all my life and I will admit I thought small boats could never attain the those kinds of speeds I was used to. 

I have hated the pathetic upwind of speeds of our boat but, son of a bitch, that boat scream on a reach. We hit 7.5 kn SOG and I don't care about currents.  Pretty cool. 

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Just now, Jules said:

Trog, I've got an old sloop, 32' loa and 25' lwl.  I've sailed big boats all my life and I will admit I thought small boats could never attain the those kinds of speeds I was used to. 

I have hated the pathetic upwind of speeds of our boat but, son of a bitch, that boat screams on a reach. We hit 7.5 kn SOG and I don't care about currents.  Pretty cool. 

 

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8 hours ago, Bruno said:

Tweener sounds like a multi screacher

Or a true code 0, as the VOR originally created them with girths between 50-75%. 

As in, before the word "code 0" was bastardized by IRC to mean girths over 75%...

So many names and terms. All of the terms. 

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Lots of good stuff guys. On my boat, a sail like this would really help me to not have a code 0.Currently I do not have anything to take me from the Jib to the Spin. A tweener would be a cool tool. I've sailed on a few boats with Code 0's and they seem to be a pain in the ass on a furler. Do it right and everything is great. Do it wrong and you can't unfurl it.
I think the LRH would be better for the Club racer than a Code 0 because it is basically a jib top as some state. Back in the day, I remember setting a Spin; Jib Top; stay'sl, flying on a reach.

And I really get the Quad, though I doubt many in PHRF can wrap their heads around it.

of course many of you know I am on the So Cal PHRF Regional board and we are going to update our Appx A (if you look at it now, it looks like something from the 80's). We want to prepare a document that will bring us to the present and several years beyond. One of the big issues is each region in the US has no guidance from USsAiling and each region is different. I'd like to get Nor Cal and So Cal on the same page in respects to measurements and sails thus allowing boats to transit, race and not need to worry about sails being illegal. maybe a pipe dream?

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18 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

allowing boats to transit, race and not need to worry about sails being illegal

Measure and bring what you got, I'm all in.  Then it would be true a performance handicapping system and not this hybrid of a box rule situation.

Want to bring your 3000sqft whomper? Sure. You just have to use it all year. 60% C0? Alright, but good luck on the W/L's when it's only 2k tws. 

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Not trying to tell some kids to get off my lawn but the original Sphinx's half acre was iirc an asym. Gennakers were adopted by 18s, 14s, and multis in the 1980s after Julian Bethwaite pioneered it. Sailmakers use different labels to differentiate their products and also to evade ratung rule restrictions.  Confusion even amongst some authorities.

"1998 this special sail was seen for the first time. Designed for sailing close to the wind in light air, the code zero  - or simply code 0 - was recognized" 

"In fact, the term “screecher” was coined in the early days of Corsair F-27 racing in South Florida, in an attempt to get a reacher classified as a small spinnaker to avoid a handicap hit for an oversized working sail."

"A gennaker is a sail that was developed around 1990 (sic). Used when sailing downwind, it is a cross between a genoa and a spinnaker. It is not symmetric like a true spinnaker but is asymmetric like a genoa"

". A Screecher and a Code 0 are the same thing.
Nope. A Screecher is specifically a multihull term for a very large, very flat sail, for going upwind or just cracked off. Catamarans and trimarans have notoriously small jibs making them grossly underpowered in light breeze. A Screecher is larger, higher clewed, and fuller than a Genoa, but much flatter than a Code 0."

"Though asymmetric spinnakers date as far back as 1865, credit Australian skiff sailor and designer Julian Bethwaite with the invention of the modern asymmetric, which he tested and developed on his Australian 18 designs during the 1980s. 

Just to add to the confusion https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/114-content/november-2017/548-no-optical-illusion

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