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10 hours ago, Rail Meat said:

Regarding the foil retraction / beam / wetted surface -

In this race, the boat(s) that get to the southern latitudes and can get on the low pressure train end up with a near insurmountable lead unless they suffer a catastrophic failure. There simply are no passing lanes at that point.

The boats that achieve that are those that can get to the doldrums first and who can get out of the doldrums first. Which makes the wetted surface issue incredibly valuable. 

Just my low value opinion. 

You certainly know way more than me and what you say makes sense but I think there have been recent cases of VG's being played out in the far south notably in 08/9 when MIchel Desjoyeaux came from very far behind to take the lead in the Pacific (I think) and the lead itself swapped a few times with Mike Golding and others as I recall.  Of course the boats were not semi-foilers at that time.  Also in 12/13 the lead wasn't fully set when they entered the south with Bernard Stamm taking the lead at one point in the Indian (I think) before François Gabart and Armel Le Cléac'h took off to fight it out.  Interested in your view.

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OK, spare me the "f off newbie"...been here before but had to re-register. I was lucky enough to get up close to the boat, and I can honestly say any pictures out there so far simply do not even

Even gets the keel modification correct.

Posted Images

To me it seems that there is still passing lanes because of the ice gates, they generally can't ride a low all the way.

The two last vg showed that everything isn't decieded at the doldrum, but more if you chose to close shave Azore's high, or take the longer route south.

Btw, after the doldrums they generaly have quite a week upwind ain't it ?

Here the boss should be disaventaged by his C foils

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I think the reason for the foils being constant radius and is to do with the rule limiting the rotational degree of freedom - how and where the 5º limit of that is being measured ie 'at the non-adjustable fixed bearing in close proximity to the hull'.  By retracting the board tip to the measurement point they've found a loop hole that allows them a much greater range of 'rake' ...

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2 hours ago, popo said:

To me it seems that there is still passing lanes because of the ice gates, they generally can't ride a low all the way.

The two last vg showed that everything isn't decieded at the doldrum, but more if you chose to close shave Azore's high, or take the longer route south.

Btw, after the doldrums they generaly have quite a week upwind ain't it ?

Here the boss should be disaventaged by his C foils

Agree with you.  I also think its not yet a procession like F1.  It would be pretty boring if the order was only decided by reliability even though its vital, like F1 with its pit stops.

I don't know what to make of the foils.  Its not like C foils are new.  Safran had them years ago but of course much smaller and the MOD70s all had them as standard but of course they didn't foil..  I would think the various takes on foils will be one of the big things the contenders are going to be looking at during the TJV.  Most of not all the expected leaders will likely change their foils before the VG so a great chance to get some second opinions.

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This whole discussion of exchanging the foils on HB doesn't make sense. The foil section is not symmetric, it's not a Laser (or whatever it's called this week) daggerboard. So to exchange one side for the other you'd have to insert the top end into the other trunk first. Seems pretty dubious that the boards would be reinforced/built for this purpose.

I wonder when/if the rudder blade sections will become asymmetric?  Maybe it's not allowed by the IMOCA rules. Could carry a symmetric section spare if they wanted. 

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ctutmark,

 

The foil section is not symmetric for sure. But the goal is still to make them spare foil.

If you brake the starboard foil during the race, you can switch foils: insert the port foil upside down and you get a starboard foil. Now the starboard foil upside down becomes a port foil with only 50% length (or whatever length of section left). As VG jas some really long tacks you can switch foils to stay competitive.

Alex learned it on the last VG when he broke his foil, and was only good on one tack.

If he can rotate the foils within an hour, I would say he can stay competitive on both tacks after breaking a foil during the race.

I dont see the other boats bringing a spare set of foils inside the boat....

Alex solved the broken foil issue by going with C-shape design!!

Regards,

D.

 

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Dame Ellen had interchangeable straight boards on her boat all those years ago and broke one and did swap them over to finish 2nd. Not convinced that it is possible with curved foils esp with adjustable rake bearings etc unless they are truly uniformly shaped. Also note they are extremely heavy. 

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Flipping slots with that board would be 

HARD

AS

SHIT.

Would require a couple padeyes, burried in the board to be routed out, and almost certainly some sort of wheel guide once the new end was in the new slot.  This is based on how difficult it was to insert curved boards on the old boat.  It would be many times more complicated than Ellen's incredible effort.  I also don't see the team compromising the foil efficiency just for the benefit of possibly shifting boards around.  The only thing the argument has in its favor is Alex's last VG board trauma.

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37 minutes ago, Miffy said:

What are you smoking

Non smoker here...

I know it would be hard to switch foils even harder in windy/wavy conditions but I think that's the goal of the C-shape for Alex.

jb5, they were straight dagger boards and similar, you could install them anyway you wanted and swap them at sea if needed. The new foils (other than HB) cannot be swapped left-right.they are asymmetrical and can only fit to the side they were designed for.

r.finn, agree, it will be hard as shit and complicated but after loosing the VG two-three times, dont you think Alex wants some backup foils to keep going in case of broken foils?

Obviously, it's my opinion based on my wannabe sailor knowledge....

 

Regards,

D.

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I honestly don’t think that the VG foils will look anything like this on HB. But they will suffice for testing everything structurally for now.

still a bit early to show all your cards. I think Alex is going to learn and test the boat with these, loading the boat up and then when too late to be followed, change for something more Quant like. Would be an easy swap out with the bearing locations and a new set of bearings.

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1 hour ago, Chimp too said:

I honestly don’t think that the VG foils will look anything like this on HB. But they will suffice for testing everything structurally for now.

still a bit early to show all your cards. I think Alex is going to learn and test the boat with these, loading the boat up and then when too late to be followed, change for something more Quant like. Would be an easy swap out with the bearing locations and a new set of bearings.

WARNING: Speculation aplenty:

I very much doubt those HB gen-1 foils are for 'testing'. Can you imagine the cost of that scenario?

But I suspect tip profiles could be interchangeable (at the dock at least) as a gen-2 option. Or possibly even altering the case profiles - if they were somehow 'interchangeable' without radical structural surgery. Could the foil rollers inside the cases be re-configured, to swap out foils with less curvature than these get-1's, for example?

As to changing foils at sea? The foils have to be removed OUTBOARD, unless the tip is detached first, surely. Then the C foils could be extracted from on board, presumably. And even if a tip could be replaced on a broken foil (doubtful IMO) how the fuck could you get the foil back into the outboard slot, in any kind of seaway? 

But it is fun to contemplate/speculate....

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On 8/19/2019 at 10:47 PM, Iain_C said:

OK, spare me the "f off newbie"...been here before but had to re-register.

I was lucky enough to get up close to the boat, and I can honestly say any pictures out there so far simply do not even come close to doing it justice.  It's incredible..."porn star" finsh carbon throughout (not black paint as it looks) and just details details details everywhere.  Check out the forward windows on the cabin top and the nav lights built into the stanchions for starters.

And...here are the foils.  They look perfectly "circular" to me and very unlike any of the wide, flat, "Corsair Wing" designs elsewhere.  This thing is an absolute WEAPON and Alex has probably already won the psychological startline battle in this.  It is an incredible machine and I am 100% rooting for Alex this time round!

 

 

1.jpg

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6.jpg

great set of photos really shows  the design and shape

i too have seen HB up close but agreed no  photos- when really close you see all the little features and amazing build quality

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What I find funny about the foils is that this design removes the usual stress points at the kinks. No inserts or complicated layups, just a constant curve.
That should make live a lot easier - until you hit something hard and they break anyway.
In case that happens they are much more vertical than the others so perhaps Alex has this time around better chances to drop a broken off foil instead of dragging the stump all the way.

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2 hours ago, Chasm said:

 Alex has this time around better chances to drop a broken off foil instead of dragging the stump all the way.

That’s a good point also depending on his ability to clean up damage the “stump”. Would still provide some lateral resistance for working up the Atlantic 

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7 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

I very much doubt those HB gen-1 foils are for 'testing'. Can you imagine the cost of that scenario?

Sail he tested two sets last time..finally going with Mark I after Mark II either failed or didn't cut the mustard, I forget.

I would be highly surprised if their modelling including fluid dynamics comes up with a clear winner.

In the budget scheme of things multiple sets large but not huge and could be the difference in getting the silverware or not.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Sail he tested two sets last time..finally going with Mark I after Mark II either failed or didn't cut the mustard, I forget.

I would be highly surprised if their modelling including fluid dynamics comes up with a clear winner.

In the budget scheme of things multiple sets large but not huge and could be the difference in getting the silverware or not.

+1 If most of the boats are similar and the difference is their foils come race time then why wouldn''t you test multiple foil designs? Yes extra cost but in the case of Hugo Boss and the potential to win and be the major sponsor of the boat it's minute (MyNoot) in the grand scheme of things. Alex is there to win not come second. The only thing standing in his way is sleep and major breakages. Could his new foil design be one that offers a 2nd chance in the case of a minor breakage? 

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I would expect a new set of foils come race time anyway. Extra cost but we are looking at no more than €500k for foils and bearings. If they could give you a step change in performance and a big gain on your competitors then it would be built into the budget from early on anyway.

and I don’t get the discussion on tip changing. These foils don’t have tips as it were. I think that some are missing the refraction of light at he water surface in Iain’s photos. Curve is constant.

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5 hours ago, Chasm said:

What I find funny about the foils is that this design removes the usual stress points at the kinks. No inserts or complicated layups, just a constant curve.
That should make live a lot easier - until you hit something hard and they break anyway.
In case that happens they are much more vertical than the others so perhaps Alex has this time around better chances to drop a broken off foil instead of dragging the stump all the way.

Alex did manage to pull that broken foil stump through the deck portal, during the last go-around. He just had a couple of goes at it and had to wait for a suitable weather window, IIRC.

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the apparently simple, constant arc shape of those foils is intriguing. I wonder if they're some kind of default, base-line test units (or not), because everyone else has been kinking the shit out of theirs. it'd be cool to find that a simple arc is fast here.

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32 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

(Delete)

...I don’t get the discussion on tip changing. These foils don’t have tips as it were. I think that some are missing the refraction of light at he water surface in Iain’s photos. Curve is constant.

Just me speculating about foil construction, Chimp.

From my review of those photo, I don't think those C foil curves are as constant to the tip, several here speculate. I reckon there's a kink up, just inside the bottom of the case at the bottom bearing. Thoughts?

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31 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Sail,

looks constant curve to me.

Guys...when I looked at them in the flesh they looked to have an absolutely constant curve to me, with just a reduction in chord at the end.

If you look at one of the photos there seems to be a line visible on the inside face of the port foil...I assume the foil is pulled down/deployed by this line.  Not sure if this would make it very hard to "swap" the foils if this was the intention?  I also thought that that chord looked small compared to some of the other boats.

I did wonder how much foil you'd actually need to deploy to foil as they do seem really long...could it be that there's actually a "fuse" incorporated into the design under the covers, deliberately designed to fail if you hit something really hard, and then you just stick a bit more out and off you go again?

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1 hour ago, Iain_C said:

I did wonder how much foil you'd actually need to deploy to foil as they do seem really long...could it be that there's actually a "fuse" incorporated into the design under the covers, deliberately designed to fail if you hit something really hard, and then you just stick a bit more out and off you go again?

A fuse/breakpoint would be damn hard to engineer, and even more so in a solid carbon/epoxy laminate. 

Only solid carbon/epoxy is allowed in the foil, and use of metal is specifically not allowed.

And then, who says you will only hit the tip of the foil, and how many break points would you envisage? Nice thought, but is not gone work...

 

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Swaping foils ... big joke

How the fuck would you be able to up and down the foil with the control line on the wrong side of the foil ....

Most accurate thing said here by I don't remember who, is the inhability to retract fully the foil in light wind AND trim the code headsail all the way in

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There is not only a line for deploying the foil visible but also a groove that I assume is for the line that is used for retracting the foil. 

groove.png.af5d6ed52088965be5a1a3ec5eb7fff3.png

But why goes the groove all the way up if it is not swapable?

I think this constant curve in the foil serves fist of all the most important goal - reliability. It compromises practically all other beneficial areas. Compared to other boats it might be possible to retract it all the way up. But even this does not happen without compromises. You can do it only if there is no sail in the way.

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2 hours ago, popo said:

Swaping foils ... big joke

How the fuck would you be able to up and down the foil with the control line on the wrong side of the foil ....

Most accurate thing said here by I don't remember who, is the inhability to retract fully the foil in light wind AND trim the code headsail all the way in

Less drag yes but these boats with their canting keels sail like shit with no foil in the water.  Actually this is a area where straight boards probably still have an advantage and why the current BP (ex Macif) still does so well.

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Straight board/foil is always better drag-wise than curved one. AC is on the right path with that. But this needs constant control and adjusting. In solo sailing area you need the foil to be self-adjusting and this requires curved foils. Figaro 3 has one of the best solution here but from negative said this rises the center of gravity. So far all foil assisted Open 60 were logical and din't have any heavy and functionless part in their foils. Now HB blew my understanding in this on every aspect: 

  • Heavy foils are raised high above the deck, compromising the stability. Will they pass the capsize test by having foils in worst position?
  • Retracted foils seems to limit the use of head-sails. Is it able to sail upwind in light air at all?
  • There seems to be no part that functions as a daggerboard. Unless the tip has symmetrical profile.
  • The total vector of the lifting force seems to be vertical when fully expanded, especially if the tip has symmetrical profile.
  • It does not make any sense to extract the foil partially as the lifting force would point away from the boat.

Maybe the hull side end of the foil has neutral or negative profile and this helps to aim the total vector to the correct direction? It does not make any sense to put the functionless part under the water. That is why Figaro 3 has this heavy part above the water - to reduce drag. In confusion I even began to think is it possible to sail upwind by heeling it over to the upwind side and use the foil from that side as daggerboard. But this is complete nonsense. 

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22 minutes ago, pilot said:

Straight board/foil is always better drag-wise than curved one. AC is on the right path with that. But this needs constant control and adjusting. In solo sailing area you need the foil to be self-adjusting and this requires curved foils. Figaro 3 has one of the best solution here but from negative said this rises the center of gravity. So far all foil assisted Open 60 were logical and din't have any heavy and functionless part in their foils. Now HB blew my understanding in this on every aspect: 

  • Heavy foils are raised high above the deck, compromising the stability. Will they pass the capsize test by having foils in worst position?
  • Retracted foils seems to limit the use of head-sails. Is it able to sail upwind in light air at all?
  • There seems to be no part that functions as a daggerboard. Unless the tip has symmetrical profile.
  • The total vector of the lifting force seems to be vertical when fully expanded, especially if the tip has symmetrical profile.
  • It does not make any sense to extract the foil partially as the lifting force would point away from the boat.

Maybe the hull side end of the foil has neutral or negative profile and this helps to aim the total vector to the correct direction? It does not make any sense to put the functionless part under the water. That is why Figaro 3 has this heavy part above the water - to reduce drag. In confusion I even began to think is it possible to sail upwind by heeling it over to the upwind side and use the foil from that side as daggerboard. But this is complete nonsense. 

For the 90 deg test they seem to allow the boats to be foil and boom free.  Arkea image at link.  Why, I don't know.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi-yZKr65bkAhXyYN8KHcu1A70QjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fstalktr.net%2Ftag%2Farkeapaprec&psig=AOvVaw1_KSOib4WwLvJLw6GQi5Iu&ust=1566575646056585

The 180 deg test isn't done any more but would be very interesting with these boats with foils and boom installed.

With all the high up foil weight of at least one foil raised the low COG gains being made elsewhere should be somewhat compromised.

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19 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

I very much doubt those HB gen-1 foils are for 'testing'. Can you imagine the cost of that scenario?

But I suspect tip profiles could be interchangeable (at the dock at least) as a gen-2 option. Or possibly even altering the case profiles - if they were somehow 'interchangeable' without radical structural surgery. Could the foil rollers inside the cases be re-configured, to swap out foils with less curvature than these get-1's, for example?

As to changing foils at sea? The foils have to be removed OUTBOARD, unless the tip is detached first, surely. Then the C foils could be extracted from on board, presumably. And even if a tip could be replaced on a broken foil (doubtful IMO) how the fuck could you get the foil back into the outboard slot, in any kind of seaway? 

But it is fun to contemplate/speculate....

Looking at the pics the foils look very long. Maybe long enough so if the exposed bit is damaged there is still enough left to deploy to be useful? Bit like some craft knives. 

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As long as there is enough left and the break is relatively clean (a big assumption) using the rest of the foil should be possible. It would be "just" a shorter foil with a really bad tip. No idea if that makes sense though. Chances are that it splinters a lot and that the resulting profile is garbage.

I really doubt that swapping the curved foils at sea makes any sense.
If we want to go for far fetched solutions I'd rather carry a single straight(!) spare and a mechanism to insert it. Making the cassette big enough should be easy enough. Question is of course if you could build it light enough so that carrying that extra weight makes any sense at all. Probably only if you expect the foil to break early.

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Alex did some pre race commentary for the Fastnet. He mentioned that they weren’t sure that the foil broke because of a collision, he said it might have just broken. Maybe they did some more load testing on the other foil after the race.? With all of these new foiling boats, how many have actually broken foils (serious question, I’m not sure). I have some serious doubts that they would design around replacing a foil at sea. 

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1 minute ago, JoeBleaux said:

Alex did some pre race commentary for the Fastnet. He mentioned that they weren’t sure that the foil broke because of a collision, he said it might have just broken. Maybe they did some more load testing on the other foil after the race.? With all of these new foiling boats, how many have actually broken foils (serious question, I’m not sure). I have some serious doubts that they would design around replacing a foil at sea. 

As I recall the previous HBs v2 foil failed under load. They went back to the v1s for the VG as Jack_Sparrow mentioned above. Some have also broken through collision. Gitana comes to mind. I agree replacement of this type of foil at sea is not going to happen. 

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5 hours ago, jb5 said:

For the 90 deg test they seem to allow the boats to be foil and boom free.  Arkea image at link.  Why, I don't know.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi-yZKr65bkAhXyYN8KHcu1A70QjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fstalktr.net%2Ftag%2Farkeapaprec&psig=AOvVaw1_KSOib4WwLvJLw6GQi5Iu&ust=1566575646056585

The 180 deg test isn't done any more but would be very interesting with these boats with foils and boom installed.

With all the high up foil weight of at least one foil raised the low COG gains being made elsewhere should be somewhat compromised.

Even know they don't have the foils and boom for the test, it is still calculated mathematically in the worst possible configuration.  So, foil CG is important.

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I just can't get my head around (Alex of all people) going for reliability at the expense of speed - in my eye some of the other foils seem to look more efficient... all I can think is that perhaps the C boards offer some sort of height stability advantage, like the V in the original Kiwi AC foiling cat.... otherwise surely there's more than minimal drag?

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4 hours ago, james3232 said:

Are they allowed to have automated foil adjustment?

No. Rules are very specific about adjustability (and even then, limited rotation):

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/IMOCACLASSRULE2019V.1.1-[24852].pdf

  1. C.2  SERVO POWER AND MANOEUVRING

    (a) RRSRule52isreplacedasfollows:
    « The boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, sails, spars, 
    foils or daggerboards shall be adjusted and operated only with the power provided by the crew. Only the keel, the rudders and the filling, transferring and emptying of the ballast tanks may be controlled and adjusted by power provided from other sources. »

  1. E.4  FOIL

    1. (a)  foil shall be retractable and shall use only one degree of freedom for this movement.

    2. (b)  If only two bearings are used to guide a foil in retraction and extension a second degree of freedom may be used [See E.4 (a)].

      (i) One of these bearings shall be fixed and in close proximity to the surface of the hull.
      (ii) 
      The other bearing may have a degree of freedom. This degree of freedom shall be a translation and the resulting rotation of the foil shall be limited to 5 degrees.

      (iii) This angle shall be measured at the non-adjustable fixed bearing in close proximity to the hull.

Edited by Sailbydate
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7 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Pilot would be interesting to see the drag results from trillions of hours of fluid dynamics modelling.

Yep. About as interesting as trying to figure out the coefficient of kinetic friction. ;-)

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So in light winds the foils would be retracted, yes? If so overlapping headsails  would rub on the foil? A crazy solution might be to have a rubber backed slot cut into the sail where the foil touches it, somewhat like a dagger board gasket. Then again what would I know :)

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On 8/22/2019 at 1:35 AM, SSolo said:

great set of photos really shows  the design and shape

i too have seen HB up close but agreed no  photos- when really close you see all the little features and amazing build quality

It's great to finally see some serious deck aerodynamics being used.... should help with all angles and speeds....

 

Only a matter of time before the foilers are quicker upwind..... just like kite foiling, the AC cats and now the foiling monos. 

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6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Pilot would be interesting to see the drag results from trillions of hours of fluid dynamics modelling.

I am not sure they have done any extensive modelling with these foils. The initial drawing was done with a finger and they still don't have any confidence that they got it right.

Quote

Thomson says the idea for his foils was fleshed out while sitting in a car with Pete Hobson, his design manager at Alex Thomson Racing, and Andy Claughton, who used to design for the America’s Cup. “We were waiting for the ferry, and I’m trying to explain to Andy what I mean and he’s drawing the foil in the condensation of the car windscreen,” Thomson recalls. “We then went home, Pete drew it up and we sent it over to [French architects] VPLP.”

The stakes are high. If they have got it right, it could be the key to the team’s success. Conversely, if they have got it wrong he admits “it’s going to be hard to recover at this stage”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sailing/2019/08/04/alex-thomson-hoping-experience-bold-design-55m-superboat-pays/

 

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With new rules allowing the foils to move on two axes rather than on one axis, as was the case last time, the challenge for everyone has been to come up with a solution that allows sailors to change the boat’s “angle of attack” as efficiently as possible

 

The fact to be able to rotate in two dimensions an almost circular (and regular in shape) foils  would not be equal in a certain way to be able to pivot on 3 axes a reduced part of the foil?

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Hugo Boss 5 with second set of Dalì-foils. Everybody bitched you couldn't raise the foil.

IMG_2501.jpg

 

Hugo Boss 6 with first set of C-foils. Everybody bitched you couldn't sheet in to go to windward.

2.jpg

 

My 2 cents.

Going to weather with the boat heeled to its 20°-30°, leeward foil halfway down -> foil is vertical in the water, albeit curved, acting as a daggerboard.

Reaching / running -> both foils fully down with the outboard tips giving the greatest lift , leeward contributes to righting moment.

The boys in the design office have been doing their homework.

 

Edited by t.rex
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26 minutes ago, t.rex said:

Going to weather with the boat heeled to its 20°-25°, leeward foil halfway down -> foil is vertical in the water, albeit curved, acting as a daggerboard.

Reaching / running -> both foils fully down with the outboard tips giving the greatest lift (righting moment).

The boys in the design office have been doing their homework.

So you are suggesting that an airplane that fights upside down with the same efficiency as the right side up can compete with long-range airplanes?

Keep in mind that the foil (tip) that gives the greatest lift in one way has a lot of drag if you want to use it as daggerboard in the other way. The needed lifting force has opposite directions. This is not a case if these foils were curved inward like they do in case of any other sailboat that uses C foils.

I am not saying that they haven't though everything through. I think they have found something that requires the mind of a genius to come up with and no extensive research has game up before. Just it is challenging to figure it out how they are going to use it. 

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I think they found an acceptable compromise for a race that is essentially downwind. 

When going to weather, the lifting surface of the leeward C-foil is on the leeward (wrong) side, but the 'daggerboard' is vertical. The drag should be equivalent.

The Dalì-foils didn't seem to be an improvement over daggerboards going to weather in 2016.

Edited by t.rex
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5 hours ago, pilot said:

I am not sure they have done any extensive modelling with these foils. The initial drawing was done with a finger and they still don't have any confidence that they got it right.

AT's finger on the windscreen guiding foil design for the VG's biggest budget. I think that is called pre-race gamesmanship. :-)

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3 hours ago, darth reapius said:

FB_IMG_1566553840327.jpg

Good photo. The foils seem less of a uniform arc than they looked in the dock pictures. However, seeing the leeward side would show much more of how these foils are working.  Down like this the windward foil is just creating drag along with the windward rudder.

I'm beginning to suspect they are not planning on doing many sail changes. The way it looks with the cockpit, forward access at sea and 'stacking space'.

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29 minutes ago, jb5 said:

I'm beginning to suspect they are not planning on doing many sail changes. The way it looks with the cockpit, forward access at sea and 'stacking space'.

There is a hatch under letter O in foredeck.

HBFDH.png.ab0f84862c6e8757fa884a81976f6bee.png

But can anyone come up with an explanation why is it off center? Otherwise I would assume that this has to do something with support-beams under the deck or channel for the lines but this is not completely away from center like on other IMOCAs. 

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10 minutes ago, pilot said:

There is a hatch under letter O in foredeck.

HBFDH.png.ab0f84862c6e8757fa884a81976f6bee.png

But can anyone come up with an explanation why is it off center? Otherwise I would assume that this has to do something with support-beams under the deck or channel for the lines but this is not completely away from center like on other IMOCAs. 

Normally you would want the sail weight at the back.  Really doubt they will be storing any larger sails in the bow.

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37 minutes ago, jb5 said:

Normally you would want the sail weight at the back.  Really doubt they will be storing any larger sails in the bow.

Good place to get sails out from below onto the foredeck though. Suspect the position is just to fit best around structure and keep weight down.

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59 minutes ago, pilot said:

There is a hatch under letter O in foredeck.

HBFDH.png.ab0f84862c6e8757fa884a81976f6bee.png

But can anyone come up with an explanation why is it off center? Otherwise I would assume that this has to do something with support-beams under the deck or channel for the lines but this is not completely away from center like on other IMOCAs. 

A pretty out there guess but in the same way an inshore racer would have a hatch offset for port rounding hoists, Hoisting furled sails to weather on long port gybes in the southern ocean?

or like you say, using the longitudinal as one side of the hatch so only 3 sides worth of additional reinforcement and weight is needed...

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Having draw such a slick deck, to reduce windage and alow water to go straight from bow to stern with no obstacle, my guess is that he wiil be stacking sails inside, so they dont't stop the on deck waterflow, and so move them inside to the hatch.

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By the way, do these foilers still use balast tanks ?

Edit :

Jeremy Bayou was saying that they have to reduce sails not because of heel angle, cause the faster you go, the flatter the boat is, but the monotype mast can't resist the loads anymore.

so balasts seems useless ?

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15 minutes ago, popo said:

By the way, do these foilers still use balast tanks ?

Edit :

Jeremy Bayou was saying that they have to reduce sails not because of heel angle, cause the faster you go, the flatter the boat is, but the monotype mast can't resist the loads anymore.

so balasts seems useless ?

Upwind it's pretty useful.  They're certainly not too fast upwind.

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14 minutes ago, jb5 said:

Normally you would want the sail weight at the back.  Really doubt they will be storing any larger sails in the bow.

A foil assisted sailboat is anything but normal. I don't have experiences but I am guessing that in light and higher winds sails are stacked at the front. Only in mid winds, where foils can barely lift empty bow off the water, they stack weight to the back. I believe the location of foils are chosen enough forward of COG that sail force is not able to push the boat into dive but the more you get stern out of the water the faster you go.

Regarding the hatch offset I begun to think that maybe it opens only to the back and sail-bag has to be dragged past the mast.

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51 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Good place to get sails out from below onto the foredeck though. Suspect the position is just to fit best around structure and keep weight down.

Could be but everyone else seems to stack the larger sails at the back even on foilers just moving them side to side on tacks.  The inside stacking systems generally focus on food bags, spares, personal items and where possible equipment tacking. These boats all plane and have done for years, bow out of the water not weighed down. You don't want the boat sitting in the water behind its bow wave.

Most of the boats have aft deck structure to assist in the stacking process and those that don't probably will wish they did.  This boat has basically nothing for stacking and has very tough access.  Maybe dragging them through the inside of this boat is possible but sounds pretty hard work given the interior is likely to be very limited in moving space.

I think he will be keep all his working sails hoisted and furled when not in use with all the windage and COG impacts that implies and just store spares or rarely used sails inside.

Using that forward hatch underway with water pouring over the deck will be pretty ugly and will give the pumps a work out.  I would think its more focused for loading, working on the boat and possibly escaping if rear access is compromised.  In fact I think its a mandatory safety requirement.  I don't recall having seen any pictures if anyone using a forward IMOCA hatch underway in a race.  Pretty sure its kept tightly closed.  These boats are very wet.

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jb5,

we don’t know how the interior layout is done. I am sure that when they decided to go for the deck design stacking of sails was considered. With this approach there is little choice but to stack sails below. I suspect the bulkhead hatches all line up off centre to aid this, maybe with devices to help. So I am sure that Sail stacks can be shifted around below. Taking this approach needs a new approach to stacking and I am sure that they have an internal system to make it as easy as possible.

if the hatch was solely for safety then it wouldn’t be that big.

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According to this video the sail locker is right below foredeck hatch in front of mast between foil cases.

This gives some ideas why the hatch has to be a bit off set.

And in front of this they are keeping only trash. In this you are right, jb5. Probably nobody will store sails in bow area, rather in the middle between foils.

Edit: and it looks like this is not a common solution for semi-foilers. Another previous generation boat had different strategy:

 

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Tons of reasons to move the hatch laterally away from the symmetrical center. 

- weight savings (the further you move the load from the unsupported section, the more material you need - the closer you move to towards a supported edge the less material you need to support the hatch).

- bedding the hatch - ever try bedding a hatch frame to a non-flat surface on a curved deck?

- bulkhead/brace/line concerns, etc. 

 

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55 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

jb5,

we don’t know how the interior layout is done. I am sure that when they decided to go for the deck design stacking of sails was considered. With this approach there is little choice but to stack sails below. I suspect the bulkhead hatches all line up off centre to aid this, maybe with devices to help. So I am sure that Sail stacks can be shifted around below. Taking this approach needs a new approach to stacking and I am sure that they have an internal system to make it as easy as possible.

if the hatch was solely for safety then it wouldn’t be that big.

Maybe. For now I think I will stay with the host and leave approach. Minimal time on deck. In keeping with the cockpit and the likely not non skid solar panels. 

Aren't all the forward hatches about the same size? The ones I have seen have all been pretty big. Then again they were mostly newish VLVP boats like this one. Figured it was to do with the rule but have not checked. 

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37 minutes ago, pilot said:

According to this video the sail locker is right below foredeck hatch in front of mast between foil cases.

This gives some ideas why the hatch has to be a bit off set.

And in front of this they are keeping only trash. In this you are right, jb5. Probably nobody will store sails in bow area, rather in the middle between foils.

Edit: and it looks like this is not a common solution for semi-foilers. Another previous generation boat had different strategy:

 

The mast is very far aft on these boats

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1 hour ago, jb5 said:

Maybe. For now I think I will stay with the host and leave approach. Minimal time on deck. In keeping with the cockpit and the likely not non skid solar panels. 

Aren't all the forward hatches about the same size? The ones I have seen have all been pretty big. Then again they were mostly newish VLVP boats like this one. Figured it was to do with the rule but have not checked. 

I checked and it is mandatory. But the minimum size is 0.2m sq. Looking back at the previous VGs BP (Armel's) has a very similar hatch size. Multiple purpose.

Still don't see there being room inside to move larger sails back and forth through the boat. Even before the foils there was little room. Since it's almost all structural support. 

Picture of BP below before the last NY to Vendee

IMG_20160517_121151.jpg

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

Tons of reasons to move the hatch laterally away from the symmetrical center. 

- weight savings (the further you move the load from the unsupported section, the more material you need - the closer you move to towards a supported edge the less material you need to support the hatch).

- bedding the hatch - ever try bedding a hatch frame to a non-flat surface on a curved deck?

- bulkhead/brace/line concerns, etc. 

 

I think it's clever to use hatch for sail "hoist".

You don't have drag sails from companionway to bow which takes a lot time and energy. You could use winch and halyard then hoist the sail through hatch with help of winch.  Then go out and connect sail on the bow.

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14 minutes ago, jb5 said:

Still don't see there being room inside to move larger sails back and forth through the boat. Even before the foils there was little room. Since it's almost all structural support. 

Actually there's plenty of room just for that.  The last HB had big padded rollers at the mast/keel bulkhead just for this.  It's much more than I would be bothered to deal with, but I assure you interior stacking is happening a lot.

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I'm interested to see the internal layout .. if I remember right, there are some radical changes according to HB or VLPL regarding structure of the hull.

 

Someone said that there could be a system to pull sails between compartments. Worth extra weight IMHO. 

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Lots of discussion about sail stacking/storage/handling.

Remember they are allowed 8 sails only while racing - 1 is a mandatory storm jib - and the J2 is permanently attached to the forestay. 

 

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Lots of discussion about sail stacking/storage/handling.

Remember they are allowed 8 sails only while racing - 1 is a mandatory storm jib - and the J2 is permanently attached to the forestay. 

 

+1 and one of those is the mainsail. So five sails available. J1, J3, MH0, FR0, A2(?).

 

No chance they will leave sails aloft/proud after they're furled. There is too much effort put into aero to let something that big stay up and draggy. Not included load/wear on rig, fittings, sails, rope, and a perfect furl doesn't happen most of the time.

 

HW

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17 hours ago, jb5 said:

Good photo. The foils seem less of a uniform arc than they looked in the dock pictures. However, seeing the leeward side would show much more of how these foils are working.  Down like this the windward foil is just creating drag along with the windward rudder.

I'm beginning to suspect they are not planning on doing many sail changes. The way it looks with the cockpit, forward access at sea and 'stacking space'.

Indeed they do not look like "simple C foils" there, and in fact the Arkea Paprec foils also have the same type of exit on deck :

MjAxOTA4ODIyN2ExNTljOWUyOTRiOWQzOGU5MDUy

btw, Ebastien Simon interview below where he talks about the foils and hull :

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/course-au-large/vendee-globe/vendee-globe-sebastien-simon-annonce-un-bateau-au-potentiel-extraordinaire-628097e2-c588-11e9-8f22-7573e5f05098

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Also VPLP interview about the new HB:

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/bateau/60-pieds/imoca/vendee-globe-l-architecte-nous-en-dit-plus-sur-l-etonnant-hugo-boss-d-alex-thomson-c7b7cfd2-ba8d-11e9-b364-7eda3d32e582

About the foils he is saying they are optimised for reaching and downwind, not close hauled. :

Quote

« Les foils* sont conçus pour le reaching et le portant. Notre priorité n’était pas la polyvalence ni la performance au près. Ce qu’on a cherché, c’est d’être le moins pénalisé possible par la traînée. On a tout fait pour qu’il soit le plus léger possible et pour que le rendement aérodynamique soit le plus efficace. »

 

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19 minutes ago, yl75 said:

Also VPLP interview about the new HB:

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/bateau/60-pieds/imoca/vendee-globe-l-architecte-nous-en-dit-plus-sur-l-etonnant-hugo-boss-d-alex-thomson-c7b7cfd2-ba8d-11e9-b364-7eda3d32e582

About the foils he is saying they are optimised for reaching and downwind, not close hauled. :

 

Pretty obvious really. IMOCA are always optimised for reaching and downwind, not close hauled. Been that way for the whole life of the class

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Indeed.

But they used to compromised a little bit to keep decent perf upwind.

Apparently on Boss they just threw this point of sail away

Simon says with the new foils they now closed the gap upwind with staight daggerboards, but he sounds waaaaay too optimistic in his interview

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28 minutes ago, popo said:

Indeed.

But they used to compromised a little bit to keep decent perf upwind.

Apparently on Boss they just threw this point of sail away

Simon says with the new foils they now closed the gap upwind with staight daggerboards, but he sounds waaaaay too optimistic in his interview

Probably using the same polars as the guys claiming these boats are faster than mod70s

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5 hours ago, yl75 said:

Also VPLP interview about the new HB:

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/bateau/60-pieds/imoca/vendee-globe-l-architecte-nous-en-dit-plus-sur-l-etonnant-hugo-boss-d-alex-thomson-c7b7cfd2-ba8d-11e9-b364-7eda3d32e582

About the foils he is saying they are optimised for reaching and downwind, not close hauled. :

 

Depending upon just how poor the upwind performance turns out to be it could prove costly in a couple of parts of VG course esp coming back up the south Atlantic. The TJV should also show this as they run into Brazil.  Would still expect the sister ship Charal to take a more balanced approach as far as it goes with these boats.

Its also interesting they didn't focus on building a powerful hull.  With this skipper I would have expected the opposite.  So he will have to work a bit harder to go fast but maybe the boat will be a little easier to manage physically.  He can take it easy in his lounge chair and nap :o between trimming exercises.

In the Simon interview he says the Juan K boat is focused on power development a lot more. Simon also seems to think his boat has the lowest mast step which is surprising.

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