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Question for the forward cockpit guys - I'm really interested in how traveller and mainsheet controls work/are rigged and what it's like trimming the main from there.

Anyone wanna help me out?

Ta

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Sorry for the long post, maybe some will find it helpful. I had time to write it while my wife and I made our 400 mile/51 hour trip from Newfoundland back to Nova Scotia!! I tried to learn everyt

Look I have a carbon fiber sink to save weight! Then they used a solid surface countertop like Corian to make it way heavier than any weight savings in the sink.... I do not understand using

I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decide

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31 minutes ago, tp#12 said:

Question for the forward cockpit guys - I'm really interested in how traveller and mainsheet controls work/are rigged and what it's like trimming the main from there.

Anyone wanna help me out?

Ta

You can kind of see one solution to it on this Chris White cat, the main sheet is the big line that runs more diagonally forward (with green arrows pointing to it) and the traveller control is the blue line that hugs the bridgedeck roof (with red arrows pointing to it). I'm guessing this boat has a "German system" for sheeting the main, that is, these controls are mirrored on the starboard side as well. I guess you could say they're sort of run in the reverse of what you'd find on a monohull and leading up to the cockpit sides rather than the aft coaming like on most aft-cockpit cats. I have no idea if this is the best solution, take Gunboat for example, there seem to be all variants of traveller solutions on those. Some have them on the roof, some have them on the aft coaming (new GB68 for example), some have a "dual mainsheet" solution with one sheet leading to each aft quarter. I suspect a lot of the Gunboats have electric traveller controls though, like the one Soma installed on his Outremer 55, but I'm not sure.

image.thumb.png.f2b308de0f584e8a04dde2611eaa64cc.png

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15 minutes ago, Tylo said:

Here's a thread about the Antal Line Driver (the thing I was talking about that I *think* Soma has installed on his Outremer 55):

 

Ah cool, thank you. I'll have a look.

I'd be keen to see the simplest option available. Which is likely more in line with Cerulean's rig. Seeing more options around that would be instructive.

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27 minutes ago, tp#12 said:

Ah cool, thank you. I'll have a look.

I'd be keen to see the simplest option available. Which is likely more in line with Cerulean's rig. Seeing more options around that would be instructive.

I may have been wrong about what was the main sheet - it might just go forward through the boom and come out at the mast base. Looks to be done that way on both CW48 "Zen" and CW55 "Iron Wing".

Here's the ad for Iron Wing, there are some pretty high res pics (in Google Chrome you can right-click the picture and press "Open image in new tab" and it'll show you the un-cropped image in the original resolution) so it's a bit easier to see. Looks like the traveler control lines go down the side but the main sheet actually goes forward through the boom. The lines going to port and starboard from the boom must just be preventer lines or something like that? I don't know really. On Iron Wing they have dedicated blocks both on the boom and deck so they must be a permanent solution for something.

Have a look: https://multihullcompany.com/boat-details/?catid=7086203

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7 hours ago, Tylo said:

You can kind of see one solution to it on this Chris White cat, the main sheet is the big line that runs more diagonally forward (with green arrows pointing to it) and the traveller control is the blue line that hugs the bridgedeck roof (with red arrows pointing to it). I'm guessing this boat has a "German system" for sheeting the main, that is, these controls are mirrored on the starboard side as well. I guess you could say they're sort of run in the reverse of what you'd find on a monohull and leading up to the cockpit sides rather than the aft coaming like on most aft-cockpit cats. I have no idea if this is the best solution, take Gunboat for example, there seem to be all variants of traveller solutions on those. Some have them on the roof, some have them on the aft coaming (new GB68 for example), some have a "dual mainsheet" solution with one sheet leading to each aft quarter. I suspect a lot of the Gunboats have electric traveller controls though, like the one Soma installed on his Outremer 55, but I'm not sure.

image.thumb.png.f2b308de0f584e8a04dde2611eaa64cc.png

The red arrows point to traveller control line, comes to brake and winch in the cockpit. The green arrows point to the preventer, comes to brake and same winch. The mainsheet runs forward along the boom, down to the mast base, through a brake to port and on to a large electric winch shared with the main halyard. All the same as my boat. The reefing lines all come to the mast base with brakes in the boom - and can be easily led to the smaller utility electric winch to starboard.

It's all pretty easy to use, especially with the main sheet on the electric winch, and the reef lines on an electric winch.

We have Antal line drivers - manual - to control the daggerboards. They are a little bit fussy, but effective. One complaint - to strip, clean, and grease them you have to disturb the fasteners that mount them - not a great design. 

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On 5/2/2020 at 9:59 AM, CapDave said:

The red arrows point to traveller control line, comes to brake and winch in the cockpit. The green arrows point to the preventer, comes to brake and same winch. The mainsheet runs forward along the boom, down to the mast base, through a brake to port and on to a large electric winch shared with the main halyard. All the same as my boat. The reefing lines all come to the mast base with brakes in the boom - and can be easily led to the smaller utility electric winch to starboard.

It's all pretty easy to use, especially with the main sheet on the electric winch, and the reef lines on an electric winch.

We have Antal line drivers - manual - to control the daggerboards. They are a little bit fussy, but effective. One complaint - to strip, clean, and grease them you have to disturb the fasteners that mount them - not a great design. 

Yea multiple people told me to stay away from the Antal line drivers on our tri. The rich and famous like em but if maintaining your own boat maybe not so great. But I have not used myself so it’s all second hand. Only one person ever did recommend them to me. 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Just had a video walkthrough with the seller of an Outremer 55 Light. He asked me how tall I was and when I answered 6'3" he said he reckoned the boat was too cramped for me. He's 6'0" and finds it barely tolerable. While there is 6'4" headroom in the centre of the saloon it tapers off quickly due to that curved deckhouse. He says he can't even sit at the foreward end of the saloon, under the downward curving roof. Now I've never been aboard a 55 Light, only a 55 Standard which I found acceptable. If I were able to travel I would've already been to view the boat in person, but that's not possible right now. Does anyone (preferably tall!) have any experience of the head room in a 55 Light? I plan to be living aboard this thing for a few years and don't want to step ashore looking like Quasimodo!

Thanks,

Mike

 

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Hey Insolent,

I noticed Barrocka was "Under offer", figured you had bought her seeing that you had posted here. However I think at 6'3 you would have struggled in a Waterline 1480!

I can't offer any advice on O55L headroom, only wish you the best of luck.

 

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Nope, not me, though I wanted to go up and see her now that Queensland travel restrictions have lifted. Too late!

I went aboard another 1480 here in Brisbane and didn’t find it too cramped actually.

Cheers.

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On 6/5/2020 at 10:15 AM, mpenman said:

On boats it sucks being tall. Even on our 57, I'm close to the ceiling around the corners but not in the hulls. 

I used to work for Ted(s) Hood in the 80’s when they were building their Little Harbor series. The joke was I was the closest to Taiwanese size Ted could find in the US!! I put a lot of miles on a few different 53s, they were fun boats to sail. And being small really did help when it came to keeping all the systems working!

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  • 4 months later...

I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decided f*ck it, lets just get a boat already and take it as it comes! So a few weeks back I made an offer on an Outremer 55 standard and will be aboard for the survey in a couple of weeks! 

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12 hours ago, Insolent said:

I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decided f*ck it, lets just get a boat already and take it as it comes! So a few weeks back I made an offer on an Outremer 55 standard and will be aboard for the survey in a couple of weeks! 

May I ask where you are located relative to the boat and where you expect to cruise in the next two years? 

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On 11/4/2020 at 8:53 AM, Insolent said:

I hope everyone here is still happy and healthy. The world has been a pretty crazy place since the last post. Figuring that there's no way you can make any plans in these times the missus and I decided f*ck it, lets just get a boat already and take it as it comes! So a few weeks back I made an offer on an Outremer 55 standard and will be aboard for the survey in a couple of weeks! 

Congratulations!!!

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Thanks all. Yeah, I'm pretty stoked! Soma, if the timing works out that would be great, thanks. I'll be staying on the boat for a few days around the survey so even if I can't get you online during the actual survey I can definitely give you a walk around. I'd love to hear what you think.

EarthBM, I'm currently in Australia. I'm in Brisbane (west coast) and the boat is in Perth (east coast). If the survey goes well my plan is to head back over there, spend some time getting her ready and then single hand her back to this side. Its about 2,800nm. Aussie interstate borders have now pretty much opened up so we are free to cruise around here, but initially I'll just be moving aboard with my family and continuing to work here. To be honest, I have no idea where we'll cruise over the next two years. Parts of the Pacific are doable (Fiji, French Polynesia) and Indo is kinda possible with the right connections, which I have from running large yachts over there. My attitude is that you simply can't count on anything right now, so we may as well just get on with doing what we want as much as that is possible. Then when things open up again we'll already have the boat and be ready to go. If that's years away then we'll be happy on our floating home in Oz and do some local cruising. Worst case we've bought an escape pod for when it really hits the fan!

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If you're going to do some Pacific cruising, strongly suggest you get a good GPS and check your charts and maps, as Brisbane is most definitely East coast of Oz whilst Perth is West Coast. Just 'coz we're down-under doesn't mean compass directions are reversed

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:lol: I have just gone out and purchased a chart of Australia and it turns out you´re right!!! :lol:

Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. I will keep this in mind when attempting to get from Perth back to Brizzie! 

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4 hours ago, Insolent said:

:lol: I have just gone out and purchased a chart of Australia and it turns out you´re right!!! :lol:

Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. I will keep this in mind when attempting to get from Perth back to Brizzie! 

Well, really you could go either direction. Very different but both good sea voyages. One ~11,000 miles shorter than the other.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/5/2020 at 8:37 PM, Insolent said:

Thanks all. Yeah, I'm pretty stoked! Soma, if the timing works out that would be great, thanks. I'll be staying on the boat for a few days around the survey so even if I can't get you online during the actual survey I can definitely give you a walk around. I'd love to hear what you think.

EarthBM, I'm currently in Australia. I'm in Brisbane (west coast) and the boat is in Perth (east coast). If the survey goes well my plan is to head back over there, spend some time getting her ready and then single hand her back to this side. Its about 2,800nm. Aussie interstate borders have now pretty much opened up so we are free to cruise around here, but initially I'll just be moving aboard with my family and continuing to work here. To be honest, I have no idea where we'll cruise over the next two years. Parts of the Pacific are doable (Fiji, French Polynesia) and Indo is kinda possible with the right connections, which I have from running large yachts over there. My attitude is that you simply can't count on anything right now, so we may as well just get on with doing what we want as much as that is possible. Then when things open up again we'll already have the boat and be ready to go. If that's years away then we'll be happy on our floating home in Oz and do some local cruising. Worst case we've bought an escape pod for when it really hits the fan!

Wow, if Brisbane is now on the West coast, and Perth on the East, things have really turned upside down in Oz! ;-)

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  • 3 weeks later...

So I got over to Perth (in WESTern Australia... the clue was in the name all along!) to be onboard during survey. Good thing too: I found a rotten section of structure below the mast step that the surveyor missed. In his defence, I lived aboard for three days and went over every inch of the boat with a fine tooth comb. And in Outremer's defence, even with that soggy bit providing no support there is not a hairline crack in the gelcoat around the mast step and the rig is still tight. It's definitely overbuilt in this area. The rot is actually pretty easy to fix, but the real disappointment was the overall condition of the boat. What is it with these guys that describe their boats as in excellent condition and then you get there to find water in bilges, seized deck hardware, safety equipment all out of date, bilge pumps and nav lights not working, rust everywhere including watermaker HP pump, autopilot pump... The house batteries literally looked like they were about to explode: swollen cases, corroded terminals, and corrosive battery gas covering all the electronics adjacent to the battery compartment. The seller still believes he's asking a fair price and won't budge. Very dissappointing. So I guess I'm still on the hunt.

I had a whatsapp walk around of that Chincogan in Thailand after going aboard one here in Goldie that I loved (sadly not for sale). She's a nice looking boat but the extra weight to comply with Aussie survey worried me so I mailed Tony Grainger about her. He said she's by far the heaviest of the 8 boats built, by somehwere around 1.5 tonnes, which will obviously have a massive impact on performance on a 10 tonne cat. Hard to believe they added that much structure actually. Then of course the broker tried to convince me that I don't really know what I want and that "sailing fast is fun for an hour but when you're cruising with the wife you'll get tired of it". What I will get tired of is motoring whenever there's less than 10 knots of breeze!

Anyone got any experience with Switch 51s?

 

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I've yet to get aboard one but like what I've seen so far. I'd read the core was foam though, not balsa. Did you ever get to sail on one? How do you think they'd do against say an O55?

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14 minutes ago, Insolent said:

So I got over to Perth (in WESTern Australia... the clue was in the name all along!) to be onboard during survey. Good thing too: I found a rotten section of structure below the mast step that the surveyor missed. In his defence, I lived aboard for three days and went over every inch of the boat with a fine tooth comb. And in Outremer's defence, even with that soggy bit providing no support there is not a hairline crack in the gelcoat around the mast step and the rig is still tight. It's definitely overbuilt in this area. The rot is actually pretty easy to fix, but the real disappointment was the overall condition of the boat. What is it with these guys that describe their boats as in excellent condition and then you get there to find water in bilges, seized deck hardware, safety equipment all out of date, bilge pumps and nav lights not working, rust everywhere including watermaker HP pump, autopilot pump... The house batteries literally looked like they were about to explode: swollen cases, corroded terminals, and corrosive battery gas covering all the electronics adjacent to the battery compartment. The seller still believes he's asking a fair price and won't budge. Very dissappointing. So I guess I'm still on the hunt.

I had a whatsapp walk around of that Chincogan in Thailand after going aboard one here in Goldie that I loved (sadly not for sale). She's a nice looking boat but the extra weight to comply with Aussie survey worried me so I mailed Tony Grainger about her. He said she's by far the heaviest of the 8 boats built, by somehwere around 1.5 tonnes, which will obviously have a massive impact on performance on a 10 tonne cat. Hard to believe they added that much structure actually. Then of course the broker tried to convince me that I don't really know what I want and that "sailing fast is fun for an hour but when you're cruising with the wife you'll get tired of it". What I will get tired of is motoring whenever there's less than 10 knots of breeze!

Anyone got any experience with Switch 51s?

 

Like Soma I looked at the Switch boats - a 51 called Niko, the 55 Fantazia, and the successor boat, the Swisscat 56 (?). I thought the 51 was a very rugged boat that likely sails decently. The salon was very short fore and aft, and the second head was hardly worth the name. Seen one frequently this past summer around Grenada, it's really a decent looking boat but we were looking for more interior. They are semi-custom, with some quite startling differences - there is one floating around with an elaborate (and beautiful) timber interior that must weigh a bomb! The 55 was a true one-off, quite quirky. The electrical system was badly misconceived, and the boat overall needed a ton of work to be "nice". Pretty good bones, but a bigger project than I was looking for. The Swisscat I didn't visit, the drawbacks were too obvious just from listing description and pictures. 

So you've discovered the dirty secret of trying to buy boats with all mod cons in this 50-60' size range. They're too much work for people with a day job to look after properly, and such people generally can't afford to pay for crew or for the number of hours of labor otherwise required to keep the boats truly maintained. Result is the boats tend to go down hill in a straight line with age. Occasionally an owner or new buyer will dump a bunch of money in and push them back up the condition ladder. Of course the owner thinks it's brilliantly maintained - he fixed what broke and spent lots of money; but that's not maintenance so much as crisis management. You go up 10 feet and you're in a different category with owners with way more money using crew and professionals, down 10 feet and it's way less work...

There's just no substitute for the constant attention truly required to keep a boat at a high level of function, cleanliness, and state of maintenance in this size range, and it's rare to find a boat in this category that gets it. You just find the best one you can, and grit your teeth and write the check. At least you get to choose the set of problems you start with!

 

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26 minutes ago, soma said:

I checked out several in person. One in the Bahamas, one in Ft. Lauderdale, the 55 in Maryland, and Simoust in Grenada. We made a series of offers/counteroffers on Simoust but never made a deal. Good boats, lots of balsa, big differences in layouts between various models. I like them. Sometimes I’ve wondered if Simoust was “the one that got away”. 

I'm sure you knew that Simoust was basically salvaged? Huge damage and repair job from I forget which hurricane. Pretty basic boat in a bunch of ways too - not sure all this was reflected in the price....Those women were out of money to spend on her....

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Here is the Switch 51 we looked at twice, Neko actually. These folks don't own her anymore. Says foam core with solid glass below the waterline; the guy was pretty technical, so might be accurate

https://svneko.com/the-boat/

I just realized the Switch 51 on Yachtworld is ex-Neko. All those pictures at the dock were taken in Fort Lauderdale where we saw her in February of 2018 - they are not current.

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5 minutes ago, CapDave said:

Here is the Switch 51 we looked at twice, Neko actually. These folks don't own her anymore. Says foam core with solid glass below the waterline; the guy was pretty technical, so might be accurate

https://svneko.com/the-boat/

Thanks for the info guys. This is actually the boat I'm looking at and have also been told it is foam cored, with solid layup below the waterline. Maybe, as with the interior layouts, helm configurations etc, there were a variety of core options...? Neko has had a lot of work done on her over the last year or so, with a lot of new equipment too.

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CapDave I partially agree with your explanation of maintenance, or lack thereof, on these boats. But most people that own a boat of this size have a modicum of common sense and organisational skill... even if you're not going to do every routine maintenance job on time, at least keep a record of what you DO do!!! I mean, few people would you buy a 12 year old car without a maintenance record so you're being pretty dumb if you don't see that some sort of log is an asset when it comes to selling your boat.

 

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3 hours ago, Insolent said:

CapDave I partially agree with your explanation of maintenance, or lack thereof, on these boats. But most people that own a boat of this size have a modicum of common sense and organisational skill... even if you're not going to do every routine maintenance job on time, at least keep a record of what you DO do!!! I mean, few people would you buy a 12 year old car without a maintenance record so you're being pretty dumb if you don't see that some sort of log is an asset when it comes to selling your boat.

 

Don’t disagree, but I’ve been buying and selling sailboats since 1975, and that belief in prior owners would be the triumph of hope over experience. Of course YMMV, please do let us all know how you get on. 

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4 hours ago, soma said:

With that said, they are good boats and reasonably fast.

Would you agree that Catanas, but really all cruising cats with cruising loads, don’t really sail above hull speed in the real world? And therefore a comparable $$ 60-70ft mono is just as fast or faster in most conditions. 
 

This still leaves comfort at anchor and shallower draft in favor of cats, to be weighed against capsizability* and difficulty finding berths. 
 

(*I really don’t want to start the sinking monos vs capsizing multis sh*tshow, but the number of lost keels or sunk monos as % of boats in the water is probably lower than the number of capsizes)

With that said, TS42s did well in this year’s ARC, way better than hull speed. But they are not Catanas and we’re probably pushing.

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14 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Would you agree that Catanas, but really all cruising cats with cruising loads, don’t really sail above hull speed in the real world? And therefore a comparable $$ 60-70ft mono is just as fast or faster in most conditions. 
 

This still leaves comfort at anchor and shallower draft in favor of cats, to be weighed against capsizability* and difficulty finding berths. 
 

(*I really don’t want to start the sinking monos vs capsizing multis sh*tshow, but the number of lost keels or sunk monos as % of boats in the water is probably lower than the number of capsizes)

With that said, TS42s did well in this year’s ARC, way better than hull speed. But they are not Catanas and we’re probably pushing.

My fully loaded Atlantic 57 would absolutely sail rings around my old Oyster 61 on every point of sail in all conditions. Roughly comparable prices. I guess a Catana 581/582 would be the comp there, I haven't sailed one. 

I used to run a Little Harbor 75, she would reach at 11 knots all day. My cat would beat her for sure. And that LH75 is multiples of purchase and maintenance costs.....

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Personally I would think that a 70' mono may be faster than a Catana but the comfort level is another world all together.

Cats are just as uncomfortable upwind as monos but are not leaning over. Downwind is another world altogether. The cat will sit flat and slide along in comfort. The mono will pitch and roll as the swells move under her unless she is a lightweight race boat that is on the step.

The reality is if you are cruising you are not going upwind so it is all about downwind sailing.

Unless you are planning on doing a lap of the Southern Ocean the cat will be a way better choice.

Also note that although cruising cats can capsize the likelihood of dying is very small. Well designed cats are very stable and safe upside down. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Would you agree that Catanas, but really all cruising cats with cruising loads, don’t really sail above hull speed in the real world? And therefore a comparable $$ 60-70ft mono is just as fast or faster in most conditions. 
 

This still leaves comfort at anchor and shallower draft in favor of cats, to be weighed against capsizability* and difficulty finding berths. 
 

(*I really don’t want to start the sinking monos vs capsizing multis sh*tshow, but the number of lost keels or sunk monos as % of boats in the water is probably lower than the number of capsizes)

With that said, TS42s did well in this year’s ARC, way better than hull speed. But they are not Catanas and we’re probably pushing.

 

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5 minutes ago, CapDave said:

I guess a Catana 581/582 would be the comp there, I haven't sailed one. 

The owner of one 582 I made an offer on admitted that 8-8.5kt is the typical cruising speed. MarineTraffic AIS data kind of confirms — look up any cat out there and it’s single digit speeds. A certain cat named Boundless shows 9.5kt max / 7.2kt average.

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5 hours ago, soma said:

I’d strongly consider a Catana again if I was shopping. We contracted a 472 that I loved...but horribly failed the survey. With that said, they are good boats and reasonably fast. The one we contracted was WAY too nice for our kids...we would’ve destroyed the nice cherry interior, but your crowd may be more respectful than our 3 & 5 yr old boys. The minimalist Formica interior suits us well on our Outremer. 
 

Edit: we also had headroom issues on the Catana, my wife is almost 6’2”. 

Hmmm honestly I've never been a big fan... Hahaha yeah I know what you mean about nice interiors... my 2 and 6 year olds are together a pretty destructive force themsleves! And I´m 6'3".

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37 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

The owner of one 582 I made an offer on admitted that 8-8.5kt is the typical cruising speed. MarineTraffic AIS data kind of confirms — look up any cat out there and it’s single digit speeds. A certain cat named Boundless shows 9.5kt max / 7.2kt average.

Remember that MarineTraffic has to get its data from somewhere....it can't be everywhere. AIS is a VHF based device with limited range - so there's a lot, a lot, of sailing going on outside MarineTraffic's data gathering capability. 

We recently sailed from Carriacou to Antigua, covering 274nm in 29 hours anchor to anchor. During that period we frequently sailed at 11-13 knots, and hit 15 a few times. We motored at 7 knots for about 3 hours total in the wind holes behind the taller islands. Realistically we came close to a 9.5 knot average while under sail, stripping out the departure/arrival maneuvering time and the motoring time. True wind was mostly 10-15, at about 85-95 degrees. AWS ran into the mid-20's, with AWA at 55 to 65. This is all real world data, and I have the ship's log to back it up.

I stick to my own personal experience - that would be at least 1.5 or 2  knots faster than my Oyster and at least 0.5 knots faster than the LH 75.

It's important to remember that non-professionals sailing two-handed are very rarely going to extract maximum performance from any boat. Not racing, and not in your armchair watching youtube, your priorities are a bit different. You want to be comfortable, you want to not break anything, you don't want to jump up every few minutes and trim sails or change sails, etc., etc. Cruising reality isn't like a stripped out cat sailing with one hull out....

Edit - I sharpened my pencil a little on the Carriacou to Grenada trip. We sailed 253nm (subtracting the 21 motoring miles) over 25 hours (subtracting the 3 motoring hours and 1 maneuvering hour). So that's 10 knots average sailing....

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

The owner of one 582 I made an offer on admitted that 8-8.5kt is the typical cruising speed. MarineTraffic AIS data kind of confirms — look up any cat out there and it’s single digit speeds. A certain cat named Boundless shows 9.5kt max / 7.2kt average.

I would not put too much weight on Marine Traffic speeds... the 140 foot sloop that I run rarely sits on less than 11 knots and we regularly do 13-15 knots under sail, yet Marine Traffic says our average is 6.2 knots!

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1 hour ago, Insolent said:

I’d strongly consider a Catana again if I was shopping. We contracted a 472 that I loved

Do you know the difference between the 470, 471 and 472? Then there's the "Ocean Class" 47... kinda hoping they'd all be "ocean class!"

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1 hour ago, CapDave said:

So that's 10 knots average sailing....

57 LWL = 10.2kt hull speed. And that was on a comfortable reach.

And yeah, one might be more comfortable leaving more canvas up in a mono, knowing it will just heel more in a gust, so the same hull speed can be had without fear, or reefing for gusts. 

4 minutes ago, Insolent said:

Do you know the difference between the 470, 471 and 472? Then there's the "Ocean Class" 47... kinda hoping they'd all be "ocean class!"

4 minutes ago, Insolent said:

Not sure about 470, or even if there is such a model. 472 is 471 with nicer cosmetics, like a metal strip on the cabin door step that says “Colligo” (and possibly optional carbon bits like a longeron instead of bowsprit, but 471s can have it too).

47 OC is a newer, heavier 471/472 with bigger windows.

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Don't want to start a new thread so I will ask here.

Vinyl Ester vs Polyester construction? 
How bad is Polyester really?

I narrowed down my search to Nautitech 46 Open vs Balance 442.
Nautitech is constructed in Polyster just like Outremer, Lagoons, Leopards, FPs
Balance 442 is made from Vinyl ester just like Marsaudon, Seawind

The information I read online make it sound like Polyster is a horrible choice.
But is it really that bad? there are many Outremers that circulated the world just fine.
The goal with the boat is to circumnavigate for 3-4 years. 

 

 

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I have no sources for this but I think modern polyester (especially the ones called "isophthalic" I think) is a lot better than old polyester, both in strength and chemical resistance.

Also, you could do a barrier coat of epoxy outside of your polyester which should help with osmosis resistance as well.

I just feel like there are so, so many polyester boats out there that it can't be a "bad" material as such. It's just not as good as vinyl or epoxy but then it costs a lot less too. I believe Nautitech is owned by Bavaria which means they should have production down to a T and be able to source good raw materials. There are so many of these boats sailing. Like half the entrants to the ARC 2019 were what most would probably consider "lesser" boats like Bavarias, Beneteaus, Dufours and so on, so obviously they are capable of crossing big bodies of water. There was a Nautitech 46 Open on the entrants list for that ARC as well.

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  • 4 weeks later...
6 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

“Mini keels”

In my subjective list of “must-haves” daggerboards are in the top 3.

But then I sometimes remember that in my Dragonfly 35 I just left the board down all the time. And in another experience, I lost a mini keel by hitting a rock in a cat by not zooming in enough into the chart.
 

so in practical terms - do people raise/lower boards all the time?

 

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8 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

do people raise/lower boards all the time?

We sure did. Fully up downwind in light winds for minimal wetted surface area. 1/4 downwind in bigger seas to help tracking. 1/2 down while reaching in big seas, all the way down when sailing to windward. 

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10 hours ago, EarthBM said:

 

so in practical terms - do people raise/lower boards all the time?

 

Yes we do. All the way up at anchor to reduce fouling, various states of trim off the wind to optimize wetted surface vs. steering behavior, generally up beam reaching, then progressively down above 70 AWA, all the way down at 50 AWA. And we tack them, because we have asymmetrical 'high lift' daggers.

I'm a little surprised you haven't bought a boat yet - there have been a lot of good choices on the market?? Even a CW Mastfoil 47 that changed hands fast & cheap - don't know why, haven't asked Chris about it.

IMG_2060.jpeg

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Actually now that I thought about it more, on longer passages (Puget Sound - LA) I did adjust the board. 

All of this argues that mini-keels are a compromise that shouldn’t really be present on higher-value sailing cats. Plus yes, 125hp diesels are not a good sign. 

As for my “over the horizon” cat, horizons seem closed or a lot less friendly (eg extortion in BVI). At the same time listed prices aren’t really reflecting that yet. I suspect the actual traded prices are, but the fraction of sellers marking to reality is probably very small, meaning few boats trade. So it seems reasonable to wait out until the new reality settles in and/or borders open.

Which A47 sold fast and cheap? Agility (which seems to have been renamed)? From memory it has fixed keels also. Started at $900k “firm”, then $750k firm when I saw it. I liked the asymmetric hull with the aft port side raised to create more interior space. Clever.

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

Actually now that I thought about it more, on longer passages (Puget Sound - LA) I did adjust the board. 

All of this argues that mini-keels are a compromise that shouldn’t really be present on higher-value sailing cats. Plus yes, 125hp diesels are not a good sign. 

As for my “over the horizon” cat, horizons seem closed or a lot less friendly (eg extortion in BVI). At the same time listed prices aren’t really reflecting that yet. I suspect the actual traded prices are, but the fraction of sellers marking to reality is probably very small, meaning few boats trade. So it seems reasonable to wait out until the new reality settles in and/or borders open.

Which A47 sold fast and cheap? Agility (which seems to have been renamed)? From memory it has fixed keels also. Started at $900k “firm”, then $750k firm when I saw it. I liked the asymmetric hull with the aft port side raised to create more interior space. Clever.

We have both mini-keels and daggers. I like the keels - you can dry out anywhere, and they protect the saildrive legs and the rudders. You pay with a little more wetted surface area, but you get some flotation too. 

Agility did sell, don't know the price. There was recently an A47 Mastfoil listed on Yachtworld for $695K. Maybe it was a fast turn on Agility, maybe something else - it was in FL. If it's in your budget and and scope, you might consider a take it or leave it $1M offer for A57 Cerulean - she's been sitting quite some time now.

Antigua is great! It's not quite as "post-Covid" as Grenada, but we were really ready for a change after eight months there.

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I agree with the desire for daggerboards and reducing engine size - all the sketches of multihulls have had daggerboards. But talking to cruising friends, I get the advantages.... rudder protection, less internal structure, ability to dry out, simplicity...

Performance would still be more than adequate for most, maybe a few degrees lost in pointing, but Graingers aren't condosmarans. Again, my cruising friends note that slowing down when on passage is often more desirable than chasing an extra 3/4 of a knot! Also, she's not floating down on her lines - even with the bigger donks.

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52 minutes ago, CapDave said:

Agility did sell, don't know the price. There was recently an A47 Mastfoil listed on Yachtworld for $695K. Maybe it was a fast turn on Agility, maybe something else - it was in FL. If it's in your budget and and scope, you might consider a take it or leave it $1M offer for A57 Cerulean - she's been sitting quite some time now.

Antigua is great! It's not quite as "post-Covid" as Grenada, but we were really ready for a change after eight months there.

I saw that one, and the photos were those of Agility. So I assumed it was Agility, with someone having provided liquidity to the previous sellers and re-listing her. Chris White probably convinced them that they can’t lose money and it’s just a temporary liquidity problem.

8 months in Grenada is exactly the kind of thing I’m concerned about. It should probably clear up by the time next hurricane season is over, with vaccines on the way, but who knows.

2 hours ago, soma said:

Boats ARE trading. And at high values. I was tempted to trade out and wait for a drop in prices before getting back in, but nothing/nowhere is better than here, so we are sitting tight. It’s a seller’s market. 

And this is the disconnect to where I think things should be. I’m probably wrong, but that’s at least the reason I’m on hold. Think the next 1-2 years might be economically scary, with delayed insolvencies being realized.

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1 hour ago, ALL@SEA said:

I agree with the desire for daggerboards and reducing engine size - all the sketches of multihulls have had daggerboards. But talking to cruising friends, I get the advantages.... rudder protection, less internal structure, ability to dry out, simplicity...

Performance would still be more than adequate for most, maybe a few degrees lost in pointing, but Graingers aren't condosmarans. Again, my cruising friends note that slowing down when on passage is often more desirable than chasing an extra 3/4 of a knot! Also, she's not floating down on her lines - even with the bigger donks.

The Grainger sure is a nice cat at a good price but the 1.6 mtr draft would  turn me off, may as well own a mono. Cats can easily be designed to dry out by using the hull floors and a longitudinal bulkhead under to strengthen the bottom along with several extra layers of glass where the hull connects with the bottom. Shallow draft is right up there as one of the best advantages of owning a multi. 

9752E54C-2042-4F31-A58B-4870EDF7A22A.png

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

 

And this is the disconnect to where I think things should be. I’m probably wrong, but that’s at least the reason I’m on hold. Think the next 1-2 years might be economically scary, with delayed insolvencies being realized.

Nice boats nicely kept in the $600K-$900K range generally aren't owned by people who are forced to puke them up over a couple bad years.....

The pukers will be shedding generic condomarans, etc.....

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58 minutes ago, he b gb said:

The Grainger sure is a nice cat at a good price but the 1.6 mtr draft would  turn me off, may as well own a mono. Cats can easily be designed to dry out by using the hull floors and a longitudinal bulkhead under to strengthen the bottom along with several extra layers of glass where the hull connects with the bottom. Shallow draft is right up there as one of the best advantages of owning a multi. 

9752E54C-2042-4F31-A58B-4870EDF7A22A.png

That’s an interesting cat!

looks ready for a rigid wing!

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On 12/31/2020 at 1:23 PM, soma said:

max up (flush with the hull) when at rest to keep growth to a minimum

Good practice, it also looks extremely cool with two boards poking up out of the hulls, at least in my opinion.

On 12/31/2020 at 4:28 PM, CapDave said:

we have asymmetrical 'high lift' daggers

That's high-tier boat porn right there, awesome!

 

As someone with a slightly more modest budget I found "Spica" to be very intriguing: 
https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-43-super-shockwave/255963

Does anyone know what kind of headroom these offer on the bridgedeck? It doesn't look like full standing up there sadly which might get old after a while for long-time cruising. Otherwise a very cool cat with systems and equipment that I'd feel comfortable handling and maintaining. Price looks okay too, "Free Spirit" was another Super Shockwave listed at AU$240k if I recall correctly and has been taken off the market fairly recently it seems, maybe it finally sold.

 

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On 1/2/2021 at 2:58 AM, Tylo said:

Good practice, it also looks extremely cool with two boards poking up out of the hulls, at least in my opinion.

That's high-tier boat porn right there, awesome!

 

As someone with a slightly more modest budget I found "Spica" to be very intriguing: 
https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-43-super-shockwave/255963

Does anyone know what kind of headroom these offer on the bridgedeck? It doesn't look like full standing up there sadly which might get old after a while for long-time cruising. Otherwise a very cool cat with systems and equipment that I'd feel comfortable handling and maintaining. Price looks okay too, "Free Spirit" was another Super Shockwave listed at AU$240k if I recall correctly and has been taken off the market fairly recently it seems, maybe it finally sold.

 

Its the same boat.

 

Free Spirit was listed at $175k AUD before being taken off the market.

 

Now renamed and put back on the market.

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19 hours ago, SteveJH said:

Its the same boat.

 

Free Spirit was listed at $175k AUD before being taken off the market.

 

Now renamed and put back on the market.

Oh, that's very interesting info, thank you! Now that you mention it there's a big suspicious white gap in the graphics where it used to say "Free Spirit".

She went as low as AU$175k before being taken off eh? So at least AU$45k price hike after adding a bimini, screecher, headsail, furler and a 4hp outboard... Seems steep.

I wonder why they're selling so soon. Covid putting an end (or hold) to their sailing dreams perhaps? They wouldn't be the first.

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  • 5 weeks later...
14 hours ago, Speng said:

St some point would like to see this boat in person. Seems pretty minimalist but also attractive. https://12knots.com/en/yacht-charter/mrs-b-525/water-music-mmk1672185030000103066/

Very minimalist indeed,check out the specs!:huh:

32AA1181-9EF3-48A8-949E-1C6DB4F9C174.png

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4 hours ago, Speng said:

other links: https://www.marsaudon-composites.com/custom/voiliers-de-croisiere/mrs-b-525/

https://www.boatflex.com/en/boats/10118

https://www.inautia.com/used-boat-32895080201269495648665454674557.html

engine-wise it has 2x37hp Nanni diesels (some websites show 1x74hp)

Dunno if anyone's seen it in Martinique

Interesting. Looks like a wrong boat to be chartering (too light, etc). Does anyone have more history of this Mrs B 525? Was in 2019 C600? Was it in Tahiti before?

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Yeah, a 6 tonne 16m composite cat does seem like a strange choice for charter. Looks like a really cool boat though. I saw a price of €900k on an old ad somewhere, seems high unless that was brand new. Looks like she’d be lots of fun but probably a stretch to load her with loads of cruising gear.

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On 2/11/2021 at 4:58 PM, Speng said:

St some point would like to see this boat in person. Seems pretty minimalist but also attractive. https://12knots.com/en/yacht-charter/mrs-b-525/water-music-mmk1672185030000103066/

Pretty sure she did the Caribbean 600 in 2019. if she is truly 6 ton she should be very fast but it is not that easy to get the most out of big cats. There was a video somewhere of her 2 sail reaching at 22 kn with little fuss.

Nice looking boat. She uses round beams as her main beams which may mean she is not that stiff torsional wise, but who knows.

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  • 4 months later...

Good boat. Our 57 is sold.

Currently there is a dearth of truly good boats in the 45-65 ft range. Balance is 3 years out on production and everyone is busy as stink. The other thing to note is that material costs have dramatically risen. This will raise the price of new boats if this is not already the case.

Iron Wing just got sold to another good sailor and is moving north as I type.

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50 minutes ago, mpenman said:

Good boat. Our 57 is sold.

Currently there is a dearth of truly good boats in the 45-65 ft range. Balance is 3 years out on production and everyone is busy as stink. The other thing to note is that material costs have dramatically risen. This will raise the price of new boats if this is not already the case.

Iron Wing just got sold to another good sailor and is moving north as I type.

Congrats on closing the sale! Iron Wing was a long time selling - we looked at her over three years ago and she'd already been on the market for a while then...Where is she headed?

We arrived in Eastport Maine last week - 1,767 miles from Antigua, 8 days 10 hours. We were a little lazy in light air around Bermuda, with a little effort we could have gotten in under 8 days I think. We did 240 miles flat in the first 24 hours, and 687 miles in the first 72 hours - that was fun! Crossing the Gulf Stream north of Bermuda was surprisingly lumpy with a SW'ly against an eddy (or whorl??), even way out there!

It's cold here! Love the pilothouse all over again. We poked around in Cobscook Bay for a few days with 18' tides, lots of seals, loons and bald eagles, then today jumped back down Grand Manan Channel to Cutler, probably spend 8-10 days from here around the Roque Island area before heading over to the Mount Desert Island area. There is basically no tourist infrastructure between Eastport and MDI - no restaurants, no groceries, we filled the fridge in Eastport. Boatyard in Deep Cove loaned us a pickup truck to shop - first time I'd driven a car since January '20 in SXM!

We've got ACC on the list - Maybe second half of August?

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Iron Wing is now Emotional Rescue and will be moored off Jamestown this summer. Owner is outta Connecticut and has a fair bit of racing experience. Not sure he's on SA, but he's a good guy. I helped him bring it down the New River and jumped off when he got fuel. 

The gulfstream is always weird north of Bermuda. Not sure why, but always bumpy. That's good cruising speed for two folks. Over 200 mile days is good going. 

Agreed with Maine, a lot of dang lobster pots and water is damn cold. Welcome back to the US.

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  • 2 weeks later...
13 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

$1.55mm might get you an equally fast bigger new boat.  But you'll wait two years.

a.k.a. cost of opportunity...

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Its evidently a good time to sell a (gunboat 48)  boat.

Let me help you with that.

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On 6/16/2021 at 10:59 PM, Insolent said:

The solution is to only have one wife aboard at a time

Chatting with resort staff in Maldives: "We had a Russian guest. He flew in with his 2 girlfriends; they stayed for 2 weeks and then left. Then his other 2 girlfriends came for 2 more weeks." 

Said in a slightly puzzled tone. 

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Look I have a carbon fiber sink to save weight!

Then they used a solid surface countertop like Corian to make it way heavier than any weight savings in the sink....

I do not understand using wood veneers everywhere in boats. Why not just a nice painted carbon skin over the cored panel.

image.png.371c46cc265cb2b2742d367faceee2db.png

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