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5 hours ago, r.finn said:

I'd push the rudder elevators into TOR boats first and let their bigger budgets foot the bill for initial development cost.  See if it becomes manageable for the VG sponsors after an initial TOR lap.

Currently the TOR teams barely have a budget to build an Imoca let alone develop fully flying boats...

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Screw work. I'd rather crack a cold one, sit out on the deck and finish this post. Gosh, and it is not even 4:20. Before moving to AT, I like Nicolas Andrieu's (Team Charal) quote in Seahorse Mag

Very interesting interview by Voiles et Voiliers (the mainstream sailing magazine in France): as usual Michel Desjoyeaux has very strong opinions and he is not afraid to put them out there! So he

Starboard foil installed today. shape as expected on previous posts. From Armel Tripon Skipper FB https://www.facebook.com/ArmelTriponSkipper/?__tn__=%2Cd%2CP-R&eid=ARA-iEhfDcU

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Anything without foils is already too slow to compete. They're dinosaurs.

You say that but SMA won the last Rhoute Du Rhum without foils... If it was segregated can you imagine the first "legacy" boat being quicker than the first "flying" boat?

2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Shit, there are even non-canters, still banging around. Time to retire them, IMO.

I think they are, retired that is, I'm not sure there are any currently measured? There is one "non hydraulic" canting keel which is Pip Hare?

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28 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

You say that but SMA won the last Rhoute Du Rhum without foils... If it was segregated can you imagine the first "legacy" boat being quicker than the first "flying" boat?

I think they are, retired that is, I'm not sure there are any currently measured? There is one "non hydraulic" canting keel which is Pip Hare?

Alex Thomson in the old Hugo Boss completely blew the fleet away, until he hit the bricks, IIRC. He was handed a 24-Hour time penalty. 

There's no way a non-flyer could win the VG, unless all the foils were smashed off - or the RC decided to do the race 'the wrong way round'. VPLP were saying the new boats showed simulated performance gains of up to 20 - 30%.

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

But that's what we were saying before the advent of foils, Miffy. Rudder elevators could be argued as just a natural progression, surely?

Yes. It would be more expensive. But maybe a bit less expensive than, Ultime multis for example. There are records to be broken, so maybe there is an appetite for the sponsor investment?

The difference is the generational transition still was allowed to happen at a paced development. The first wave of foilers were mainly conservative as a proof of concept, the second wave moved on to intending to foil with no fallback position- while older boats got refitted to perform better than the first wave of foilers. 
 

once you open the tfoil pandora box - there’s no middle ground or development path for existing boats. I suspect there will also be a push for new specs on the keel and rig. 

imoca has been a beacon of healthy owner led development - rigs and keels got safer, boats got safer (knock on wood) and the foilers last edition showed better than avg reliability and the speed made them safer. Be a shame to lose the fleet so one or two programs can chase a top performance no one else was asking for. 

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Anything without foils is already too slow to compete. They're dinosaurs. Shit, there are even non-canters, still banging around. Time to retire them, IMO.

So, two divisions - Legacy would be all flyers, including retro-fitted. Proto would include all new rule developments, for example,  rudder elevators, full scows etc.

It'd be a brave new world, that's for sure.

 

There seems to be several sub divisions of the class now unofficially with all the boat updates at varying levels and of course the new boats. But it's kind of been that way since the start. The top well funded entries going for the win and the others who compete among themselves or not but are mostly there for the challenge and adventure. Personally I wouldn't change it. 

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16 hours ago, r.finn said:

I'd push the rudder elevators into TOR boats first and let their bigger budgets foot the bill for initial development cost.  See if it becomes manageable for the VG sponsors after an initial TOR lap.

What boats? There is only one new build currently.

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10 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Alex Thomson in the old Hugo Boss completely blew the fleet away, until he hit the bricks, IIRC. He was handed a 24-Hour time penalty. 

There's no way a non-flyer could win the VG, unless all the foils were smashed off - or the RC decided to do the race 'the wrong way round'. VPLP were saying the new boats showed simulated performance gains of up to 20 - 30%.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the brand new foiling boats are typically much faster, and will dominate the VG, but the class is not just the VG.

The other races also have to deliver ROI to sponsors and teams in order to make the class as viable as it is. I struggled with wether I should mention AT or not in my last post, but even if you go purely on crossing the line in that race a straight boarded boat beat the majority of the foilers, I simply, naively perhaps? believe that splitting the fleet is a complicated decision likely to affect the lower budgeted teams more.

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5 hours ago, r.finn said:

What's going on with the Port side deck spreader in this shot?

Rig is in the process of being stepped or unstepped. On the bow is one of the crew with the forestay and rolled jib which is not connected either

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6 hours ago, r.finn said:

Yeah, I wasn't aware of the state of TOR before posting that.  My bad assumption.  Reading about it now.

The state of the TOR is totally fucked up.

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2 hours ago, jb5 said:

The state of the TOR is totally fucked up.

The problem was always about heritage - yah you can bring in $ from oil or state industry money from totalitarian regimes, but once they got their pound of flesh, they’re not exactly going to invest in anything going forward. 
 

the biggest sell the last two editions have been the reliability of the boats & one design close results that keeps persistent eyeballs instead of a 2 leg race. 

there’s certainly nothing stopping IMOCA from setting up an event in 2022 with small crew race from France to Cape Town to Auckland to Lisbon to somewhere else. It won’t be as costly, covers better sponsorship demographics and won’t put the teams under intense pressure at too many stop locations or send folks into the southern ocean at the wrong season. oh and fewer rules in imoca than TOR because there are no interested parties to satisfy to simultaneously require foiling imocas but trying to ban their autopilots to a level so dumb even mini 6.5s have more sophistication. 

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TOC is very different course then the VG.... so ideally different boats will be needed. Even transatlantic races like the RdR and TJV are not similar to the VG, I understand from the PR that HB is the only one boat has been built with the sole object of winning the VG.

 

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14 minutes ago, SSolo said:

TOC is very different course then the VG.... so ideally different boats will be needed. Even transatlantic races like the RdR and TJV are not similar to the VG, I understand from the PR that HB is the only one boat has been built with the sole object of winning the VG.

 

Most new IMOCAS are being launched with the objective of winning the VG - the design brief and study might give different design optimization, but for the French teams, winning the VG is the finale.

in re TOR - who cares what their course is? Late stage Volvo, thrown together daisy chaining sponsors for dock show anyway. Then the rich wonder why they flew all the way out to some shitty brown river water when they could have had a better vacation sail in Cape Town or Auckland. 

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4 hours ago, Miffy said:

in re TOR - who cares what their course is? Late stage Volvo, thrown together daisy chaining sponsors for dock show anyway. Then the rich wonder why they flew all the way out to some shitty brown river water when they could have had a better vacation sail in Cape Town or Auckland. 

Miffy, you usually make a lot of sense, but here you've lost me completely.

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I think that what is being missed in this conversation is that there is not the Francophile approach that the Vendee Race has always had. 

It is a very French creation, and since its first editions, the audience, which is still Primarily French, follow and applaud the participation because of the adventure and experience that invokes a more romantic notion. In each edition there are realistically only ever a handful of boats that can win outright. But the race has been oversubcribed for the past 17years......

The wider public do care about the Front runners and the technology - but not to the exclusion of all those campaigns who depart with only the hope of completion. The organisers do not need to explain to the audience that most will struggle to finish within a month of the winners. Yet the public cheer home these boats with as much enthusiam as the winners.

So it begs the question of whether the race even needs sub-categories. It is more likely that they need to keep the tail end charlies up to a certain speed so as to give some sort fleet compression for safety and rescue capabilities. Provided the fleet makes it around Cape Horn then the anxiety begins to lower somewhat from an organiser and SAR perspective.

Foiling is the genie that has been let out of the bottle. Cannot see how it can be squeezed back in. The current configurations are sort of Half Bastard Mutations which are becoming ever more complex and costly to develop. This problem is hard to crack. They will still be astronomically expensive without the T Rudders and associated costs, but just as or more so with them. Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. Take your choice. The French will follow these sailing heroes regardless.

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https://www.scanvoile.com/2020/05/romain-attanasio-vendee-globe-imoca-sponsor-hotel-port-foret.html#.Xs5VirvYqbg

Some positive news on the sponsorship front.  Romain Attanasio has picked up a couple of new sponsors and additional backing from Pure. Best Western Hotels France and Demain la Terre have been added as new sponsors.  Goes to show that sponsorship is still out there if you work for it for non front runners.  As I recall this project had been short of funding for a long time so great news for Romain.

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1 hour ago, Boink said:

Unfortunately, as fast as it maybe, now that Charal has had a nose job.......

All I can see is is this..FB_IMG_1590447020460.jpg....

Charal Bow.jpg

Proboscis Monkey.jpg

As long as that's a spinnaker, I don't care what the front looks like.  

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No surprise, huge apparent wind shift on and off the foils. That's a fairly robust kite as well, which I would expect for serious time offshore....

I recall the autopilots being relegated to steering-only duties, and as I don't see any electric winches on-board, that holds true, so those that can spend as much time up and on deck trimming are probably going to put some miles on their competitors...

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41 minutes ago, samc99us said:

No surprise, huge apparent wind shift on and off the foils. That's a fairly robust kite as well, which I would expect for serious time offshore....

I recall the autopilots being relegated to steering-only duties, and as I don't see any electric winches on-board, that holds true, so those that can spend as much time up and on deck trimming are probably going to put some miles on their competitors...

The only current class ratified IMOCA with an electric winch on board is Pip Hare's Super Bigou which has one for the keel, as its the only non-hydraulic canting keel. 

The rule for servos is thus:

Quote

C.2 Servo Power and Manoeuvring

C.2 a) RRS Rule 52 is replaced as follows:

"The boat's standing rigging, running rigging, sails, spars, foils or daggerboards shall be adjusted and operated only with the power provided by the crew. Only the keel, the rudders, and the filling, transferring and emptying of the ballast tanks may be controlled and adjusted by power provided from other sources."


C.2 b) Servo-control is strictly prohibited with the following exceptions:

i) adjustment and control of the keel using exclusively the standard canting system equipment when supplied;

ii) the rudders to affect the yaw.

 

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REFITS COME TO AN END !

Just over a fortnight after the lockdown ended, the sailors and their teams are now busy catching up on lost time. Many IMOCAs have been relaunched after their winter refits, which took longer than planned.

https://www.imoca.org/en/news/news/refits-come-to-an-end-

Good summary of where the fleet is at.

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https://www.scanvoile.com/2020/05/imoca-vendee-globe-mise-eau-bilan-flotte-2020.html#.XtD1R6nYqbg

A little summary of some of the changes that have gone on with the IMOCA as they are all now being launched.

Reinforcements particularly for MACSF / Isabelle Joschke. “  These reinforcements were a necessity. It is a boat from 2007 which was not designed to accommodate foils which bring higher speeds, more violent shocks and larger loads,  "explains Alain Gautier, team manager of the MACSF project.


Ergonomics
Changes for solo sailing. Apivia, the chart table and rest areas have been improved. Cameras have been added to help Charlie Dalin set the sails, observe the beach before and have a vision of the environment near the boat. 

Sam Davies' boat (Initiatives-Coeur) is one of the IMOCAs with a new cockpit roof. Alan Roura and his team have undertaken a similar change. “In 2016, we did not have the possibility of adequately covering the Superbigou (now Pipe Hare's boat) cockpit. I had really drooled in the southernmost latitudes, ” remembers the skipper of La Fabrique. "Being soaked all the time, I can't take it anymore!" " 

There are also more protective covers on board the boats of Fabrice Amedeo (Newrest), Kevin Escoffier (PRB), Arnaud Boissières (La Mie Câline-Artisans Artipôle), Stéphane Le Diraison (Time For Oceans), Boris Herrmann & Yannick Bestaven (Maître CoQ).


Optimizations 
All the teams also sought to gain in performance. Jérémie Beyou, Charal skipper: “ We have modified the general balance of the boat, the bow, the volume of the ballasts, the weight distribution, the bulb weight; we closed the cockpit more, reviewed everything related to energy and electronics, built new foils and the wells that go with it, made a new mast and new sails. In all areas, we have pushed the plug further to gain performance, without ever sacrificing reliability. " 

The boats of Thomas Ruyant (Linkedout) and Sébastien Simon (Arkea-Paprec) will soon be fitted with new foils. This is already done on board Malizia II, the IMOCA of Boris Herrmann. With these more powerful appendages, and also with a new bow profile, the German skipper hopes to gain up to 2 knots of speed under certain conditions.

In all the teams, intense reflections were also carried out on the set of sails (limited to eight for the Vendée Globe) and on energy on board. 


Patience for some
Jean Le Cam (Yes We Cam) does not want to rush things and takes the time to properly prepare his machine, whose launch is scheduled for late June-early July. Stéphane Le Diraison, who is undertaking major work on Time For Oceans (implantation of foils, new roof, new distribution of ballasts), sees a worksite ending in mid-June. As for Alexia Barrier (4myplanet), she still has still to find the funding to change the keel of her boat, the oldest in the IMOCA fleet.

Two sailors have recently found partners despite the difficult economic context. Ari Huusela is now supported by Stark, the leading Finnish building materials chain. Romain Attanasio receives support from Best Western® Hotels & Resorts France. 
 

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On 5/27/2020 at 6:54 PM, jb5 said:

Picture now.  New foils wont be on board for another 10+ days.  They will however be sailing as much as possible solo before then.

Credit : Martin Viezzer / Arkéa Paprec

Launching of the imoca Arkéa Paprec

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Did ATR completely miss out on a development cycle with the required repairs to Hugo Boss?  I haven't seen anything about changes being made to HB other than what was needed to be improved/fixed in response to the damage done during the Transat.

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8 hours ago, jb5 said:

Picture now.  New foils wont be on board for another 10+ days.  They will however be sailing as much as possible solo before then.

Credit : Martin Viezzer / Arkéa Paprec

Launching of the imoca Arkéa Paprec

Interestingly, on the rudder foot, rather than the head, this time, JB.

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8 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Interestingly, on the rudder foot, rather than the head, this time, JB.

Yes, I agree. These are different from what I have seen before. The IG picture was a close up of them prior to installation and it was remarkable how sculptured they are, far more than I expected across a lot of the surface. Very detailed design element with a lot of refinement it appears. 

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3 minutes ago, jb5 said:

Yes, I agree. These are different from what I have seen before. The IG picture was a close up of them prior to installation and it was remarkable how sculptured they are, far more than I expected across a lot of the surface. Very detailed design element with a lot of refinement it appears. 

Very similar to Corum's, it seems.

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4 hours ago, JL92S said:

poor quality photos but Hugo Boss has been out sailing again

What's up with the clear sail? Is that so AT can see the islands in front of him better? :D

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5 hours ago, Miffy said:

Looks like a really light air sail one might use crossing the equator 

8 only sails allowed though, Miffy. Big decision, no?

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43 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

8 only sails allowed though, Miffy. Big decision, no?

I’ve seen the clear sails incidence offers  and I think Doyle has something similar - they’re not really the same as the Mylar layer tape only sails of past. It’s high strength fibers in a low density weave that has good loadpaths but most of the surface is the transparent stuff. I can’t speak re performance or longevity but it’s an code/screacher apparent wind sail for light airs. 

considering how much apparent wind the foilers generate on their own, I’m thinking a lot of teams are looking at being able to possibly foil 15+ in under 10 and make it to the southern ocean in record time. 

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they’re not really the same as the Mylar layer tape only sails of past

Ya don't say.   Me, I'm so dumb and not capable of sarcasm that I really thought these multi-million dollar, yearly, programs just dusted off some old stock of a mid-90s design and called it good.

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It’s just a more specific way to design a sail. If you think of a sail as a wing, imagine the laid fibers in as the rib spars and stringers. and ideally you use just enough fiber as needed plus whatever margin you want built in for reserves and use whatever process you want to bond the skin to the fibers. 
 

 

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The solar panels used on Charal look quite strange, from https://www.flysolartechsolutions.com/  , maxeon sunpower cells or something else ? (product page down on the site right now) 

Charal page on their partnership with fly solartech :

https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/chantier-charal-lenergie-question-de-compromis/

HB is using Gochermann custom panels (also the case for the gunboats 68 or GB moonwave).

Gochermann is a bit of a mystery for me, seems to be a very small company, doing only custom panels (mostly for "race" solar cars and things like that), and not communicating much at all, even for projects like HB :

https://www.gochermann.com/category/news/ (last news article from 2014 ;) )

 

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Looking at the Charal refit, these budgets have gone through the roof. Thus can’t be sustainable. I wish it was, but it can’t be. IMOCA need to start putting limits on numbers of spars, foils, etc or these things will follow the 60ft Tri class

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On 5/29/2020 at 3:27 PM, bosshawg said:

Did ATR completely miss out on a development cycle with the required repairs to Hugo Boss?  I haven't seen anything about changes being made to HB other than what was needed to be improved/fixed in response to the damage done during the Transat.

Possible, but the ATR team is far from stupid and will probably have done something without telling the world. Which is probably the more likely explanation given how hush-hush they are.

edit: interview from VPLP says they have v2 foils. Doesn't look like they've been installed yet... 

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A question aboiut the Dali foils most new boats have.  in most of the pictures and videos of them sail show the tips well out of the water.  Could they save the weight by lopping the last six feet off the foil as that bit does not seem to add to the design?

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9 hours ago, trt131 said:

A question aboiut the Dali foils most new boats have.  in most of the pictures and videos of them sail show the tips well out of the water.  Could they save the weight by lopping the last six feet off the foil as that bit does not seem to add to the design?

Six feet ! Inches maybe ..

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18 hours ago, huey 2 said:

 

If the other skippers aren't worried, they should be.  This boat looks right and this skipper has won big offshore events before without being much on anyone's radar.  He showed a lot of wisdom in his Multi 50 RdR victory, when he talked about restraining his urge to put up his big gennaker while approaching Guadeloupe.  Conditions were within sail limits but gusty.  Many sleep deprived solo sailors wouldn't have made that clear headed choice and he won handily.

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On 5/30/2020 at 2:22 AM, yl75 said:

The solar panels used on Charal look quite strange, from https://www.flysolartechsolutions.com/  , maxeon sunpower cells or something else ? (product page down on the site right now) 

Charal page on their partnership with fly solartech :

https://www.charalsailingteam.fr/chantier-charal-lenergie-question-de-compromis/

HB is using Gochermann custom panels (also the case for the gunboats 68 or GB moonwave).

Gochermann is a bit of a mystery for me, seems to be a very small company, doing only custom panels (mostly for "race" solar cars and things like that), and not communicating much at all, even for projects like HB :

https://www.gochermann.com/category/news/ (last news article from 2014 ;) )

 

Charal plan to run the next RDR with alternative fuels entirely - solar, hydrogen, hydro and wind.  No diesel.  Will require a rule change or two to make that happen but those rules should have been changed a long time ago.

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On 5/29/2020 at 2:52 AM, jb5 said:

Picture now.  New foils wont be on board for another 10+ days.  They will however be sailing as much as possible solo before then.

Credit : Martin Viezzer / Arkéa Paprec

Launching of the imoca Arkéa Paprec

Rudder tubercles

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10 minutes ago, Bruno said:

Those stayed outboard sheeting struts look pretty light, relatively cheap.

In comparison to the mast deck spreaders, they look up to the job to me, Bruno. What's your concern?

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5 hours ago, r.finn said:

If the other skippers aren't worried, they should be.  This boat looks right and this skipper has won big offshore events before without being much on anyone's radar.  He showed a lot of wisdom in his Multi 50 RdR victory, when he talked about restraining his urge to put up his big gennaker while approaching Guadeloupe.  Conditions were within sail limits but gusty.  Many sleep deprived solo sailors wouldn't have made that clear headed choice and he won handily.

Looking forward to Armel's beast lining up against the VPLP rocket ships. 

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Looking forward to Armel's beast lining up against the VPLP rocket ships. 

Me too.  Manuard's move in bow volume is (IMO) a sure thing at this point based on results in the 650 and Class 40.  2, 4, 60.  I still think it was a stoke of genius on Raison's part to bring this offshore.  Helps foilers land softer and get back on foils quicker, and non-foilers to get up sooner without stuffing as much, all with higher averages.  From a reliability standpoint I suspect neither suffer as much bow stuffing, which the rigs will appreciate.  For Tripon, I think the key to his success will be keeping the boat as simple as possible since there is very little development time, and just pacing himself through the lens of having a fast reliable boat.  I wonder how much his experience with the Multi 50 will inform his sail selections, since it seems their performances are similar offshore.

 

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Apivia off shore testing with Yann Eliès, Pascal Bidegorry and Antoine Carraz, project technical director.

Images Apivia

FB_IMG_1590915008010.jpg 

 

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Sleep

Are the skippers getting less sleep as the boats get faster?

Now that they will partially fly, I'm guessing sleep will be even harder to actually, physically get!

How much more trimming needs to happen on a foiler, at speed for days on end?

HB's choices are coming into sharper view: He can sleep, eat and nav in a chair in the pit, bone dry!!!

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6 hours ago, Liquid said:

HB's choices are coming into sharper view: He can sleep, eat and nav in a chair in the pit, bone dry!!!

Indeed. But he'd better not get too comfortable in his batt cave. He has enough trouble staying awake, as it is!! ;-)

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1 hour ago, jb5 said:

Charal flying

Looks like their V2 setup isn't quite as wild as V1.  Bow down a bit, balanced.  Granted, ideal conditions, and the video does open with them pointing skyward, but seems like he'll be able to see the horizon a bit more often than before.

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https://www.scanvoile.com/2020/06/imoca-corum-foils-explications-video.html#.XteNkqnYqbg

Interesting little write up  on Corum's foils build.  Link in French.

foil%2BCorum-02.jpg

Credit: JB Epron 
In general, the foil functions in water like an airplane wing in the air, in particular in the lift phases. Alongside the keel, which once tilted creates a vertical thrust, the deployed foil will do the same, from 14 knots of speed. The higher the speed of the boat, the more efficient the foils will be. Conversely, below 14 knots, they can add additional drag, and therefore slow the boat.  

The forces provided by these appendages are anticipated and this deformation is therefore expected; it can reach up to 80 centimeters       
It took 7 and a half months to make the two foils entirely made of carbon. There are around 300 layers of carbon fiber precut and stacked on a mold then compacted and baked several times in a pressure oven (between 4 and 6 bars) at more than 100 degrees in 24 hour cycles.   

A layer of carbon fiber is called a 'fold'. Every two folds, there is 20 minutes of vacuum compaction (i.e. 50 hours of total compaction).   

Once this first stage is completed, a raw foil is obtained: it is then milled digitally to precisely adjust its final shape, before the finishing work carried out by hand as well as the painting. 

Each foil has a developed wingspan of 7 meters. CORUM L'Épargne has a wingspan of 13 meters with its two foils out, and 11.8 meters when they have returned. 

As with the CORUM L'Épargne boat, the slogan of the specifications for the foils was versatility and reliability for a trip around the world.

Source: Corum
 

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Armel

[FIRST NIGHT ON board]

" In fake solo for this premiere aboard

L'OCCITANE en Provence

! What a pleasure to leave the bay, walking west on a flat sea, the horizon that is growing at a flat sea, the horizon that is growing at once, the night that falls, let me imagine more distant sailing... The miles march, the island of Groix, the archipelago of Glénans are already in our wake. The boat goes to the door, slalom between fishermen. We go back to the sea, I take some time to find the right settings but once the first laugh in place, I open up a little sails and the boat flies! 17 knots to the close , I've never seen this The hull out of the water, the waves barely wet the bridge. We head to normoutier, before heading back to La Trinity sur Mer, in the wind, at this rate, the power of the foils push us at more than 25 knots... it's unhinges! Every burst, the boat speeds up endless, it's sublime. Just waiting for the next weather window! "

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4 hours ago, jb5 said:

Conversely, below 14 knots, they can add additional drag, and therefore slow the boat.  

Have to remember that for when looking at the tracker. So get up to 14 knots as soon as possible.

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10 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Have to remember that for when looking at the tracker. So get up to 14 knots as soon as possible.

Yes its all a trade off for sure. I expect a pretty close field in the VG between the new boats. The field is converging. The skipper should be the deciding factor. At least I hope. 

Not expecting much insight from the Artic race though with all the new boats still really in shakedown and setup modes. 

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14knots BS seems high before trade off pays off. Any upwind work back up the Atlantic, and the two trips through the doldrums are going to be even more painful!

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