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J111 Worlds Chicago, IL

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On 8/26/2019 at 7:46 AM, proOC said:

... Could Joust have slammed it into the space between Shamrock and the mark which they are allowed as long as they have room?  Looked like it was there...

Perhaps; but unlike @ 13:10 below ...

 

... Joust did not overlap Shamrock before entering the 'zone'.

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On 8/25/2019 at 11:35 PM, Stubby said:

Just my two bobs, I was the bowman on Joust for this.

As you've all seen, Shamrock had a shocker of a drop and we had a fairly good one.  We didn't notice how bad their drop was going, as we were coming up we were looking pretty good to just follow them around the bottom mark.  We eventually noticed that they had slowed and almost stopped in front of us, you can see the point where Rod tries to bear away but it was just too late in the end, from my vantage on the bow I can confirm that the skipper of Shamrock definitely wasn't off his feet until we hit them, that was all us.  Shamrock continued on racing and we got clear, did our turns and continued racing; I think we ended up 6th after all of that.

We approached Shamrock after the race finished, offered our apologies and asked them if everyone was okay.  We both continued on to sail in the next race and Rod went straight over to see them once they got into the dock.  The protest from Shamrock was for Rule 14, we were cleared as being okay and doing what we could to avoid and it was also noted that we admitted our fault and completed our turns, the DSQ was for rule 44.1.

The second protest was because we had floated the idea as a crew of appealing the decision based on the definition of 'serious damage', we then all spoke to the crew off Shamrock on the dock that morning and withdrew our appeal once we found out about the skippers injuries.

In the end, shit happens and this is one of those scenarios where it's easy to say what we should have done at the end of the day after watching the video.  The good things that came out of this are that no one was really seriously injured and that the boats are still around to sail another day.

We all appreciated you guys making the trip and glad no one was more seriously hurt.  I am curious how you thought this damage wasn't considered serious enough to warrant consideration of an appeal?  What is your definition of serious damage?  Seems to me a hull breach qualifies.  I'm not intending to flame you guys, just curious.

Resized_20190822_155141001.jpeg

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It's clear that almost any contact with big boats results in serious damage and this one is obviously serious.

Was the video used as evidence?

I find this accident quite strange and wonder where is the limit what the boat with mark room and initial ROW can do. She is not limited by R 15 and 16 thus she can do quite much. Was R 22.3 considered? That would be one limit. What if she would spin 180 degrees due to steering system failure? 

It looks like she turned (above?) close hauled with both jib and mainsheet totally loose. With backwinding kite the boat stopped very suddenly or even went astern (hard to judge from the video). I have turned to close hauled many times with the kite half way or even more up and never had it backwind like that. 

 

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On 8/28/2019 at 10:20 AM, Goblew said:

We all appreciated you guys making the trip and glad no one was more seriously hurt.  I am curious how you thought this damage wasn't considered serious enough to warrant consideration of an appeal?  What is your definition of serious damage?  Seems to me a hull breach qualifies.  I'm not intending to flame you guys, just curious.

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There is an interpretation on RRS 44.1 which was requested by San Diego Yacht Club,  in this there are the following questions.

Questions to consider may include:

(1) Did the damage put the safety of the crew at risk? In my opinion, no.

(2) Did the damage include a hole in the boat which compromised the integrity of the hull? In my opinion, no.  While there was a hole which let water in it was insignificant enough that Shamrock managed to finish that race and the next race without making any actions to fix it, they then fixed it overnight with tape.  While there was a hole, whether or not it compromised the integrity of the hull could be argued.  What constitutes structural integrity?  I would be interested to hear from a judge regarding this one, my personal though is that is the boat might structurally fail then that's compromised integrity where if they can fix it well enough to race with some tape then that wouldn't constitute compromised integrity.

(3) Did the damage adversely impact the boat’s sailing performance in a significant way? In my opinion, no.  Shamrock got their second best score of the regatta in the following race.  If you say that in that race they could have potentially been first you could say their third best score.

(4) Will the cost of repairing the damage be a significant amount relative to the market value of the boat? In my opinion, no.

(5) Will the value of the boat after repairing the damage be significantly diminished? In my opinion, no.

 

23 hours ago, Joakim said:

Was the video used as evidence?

I find this accident quite strange and wonder where is the limit what the boat with mark room and initial ROW can do. She is not limited by R 15 and 16 thus she can do quite much. Was R 22.3 considered? That would be one limit. What if she would spin 180 degrees due to steering system failure? 

It looks like she turned (above?) close hauled with both jib and mainsheet totally loose. With backwinding kite the boat stopped very suddenly or even went astern (hard to judge from the video). I have turned to close hauled many times with the kite half way or even more up and never had it backwind like that. 

 

Yes, the video was used as evidence. 

Not sure on 22.3, personally I don't think that was applicable.

I would argue that Shamrock wasn't above close hauled.  With everything they had going on they could have been below close hauled and still have sails flapping from not enough mainsheet or barberhauler on the jib.

 

I want to be very clear in this, these are just my opinions.  Not necessarily those held by the rest of the crew or Rod.  As I said above, I would be interested to hear from a judge on this one, it's a fairly interesting/complex scenario that lessons can be learnt from on all sides.

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Here's the lesson... don't drive into the boat ahead who had a bad rounding.

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9 hours ago, footlong said:

Here's the lesson... don't drive into the boat ahead who had a bad rounding.

you sonde so callusse abote it

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On 8/29/2019 at 1:12 AM, Stubby said:

There is an interpretation on RRS 44.1 which was requested by San Diego Yacht Club,  in this there are the following questions.

Questions to consider may include:

(1) Did the damage put the safety of the crew at risk? In my opinion, no.

(2) Did the damage include a hole in the boat which compromised the integrity of the hull? In my opinion, no.  While there was a hole which let water in it was insignificant enough that Shamrock managed to finish that race and the next race without making any actions to fix it, they then fixed it overnight with tape.  While there was a hole, whether or not it compromised the integrity of the hull could be argued.  What constitutes structural integrity?  I would be interested to hear from a judge regarding this one, my personal though is that is the boat might structurally fail then that's compromised integrity where if they can fix it well enough to race with some tape then that wouldn't constitute compromised integrity.

(3) Did the damage adversely impact the boat’s sailing performance in a significant way? In my opinion, no.  Shamrock got their second best score of the regatta in the following race.  If you say that in that race they could have potentially been first you could say their third best score.

(4) Will the cost of repairing the damage be a significant amount relative to the market value of the boat? In my opinion, no.

(5) Will the value of the boat after repairing the damage be significantly diminished? In my opinion, no.

 

Yes, the video was used as evidence. 

Not sure on 22.3, personally I don't think that was applicable.

I would argue that Shamrock wasn't above close hauled.  With everything they had going on they could have been below close hauled and still have sails flapping from not enough mainsheet or barberhauler on the jib.

 

I want to be very clear in this, these are just my opinions.  Not necessarily those held by the rest of the crew or Rod.  As I said above, I would be interested to hear from a judge on this one, it's a fairly interesting/complex scenario that lessons can be learnt from on all sides.

Asked and well answered. Thanks. 

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On 8/29/2019 at 8:12 AM, Stubby said:

(4) Will the cost of repairing the damage be a significant amount relative to the market value of the boat? In my opinion, no

What is considered significant? 10%? Wouldn't this repair cost about 10%?

What's the point relating to market value? $1,000,000 damage to a superyacht is not serious damage, but $100 to a cheap boat is?

 

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What I see in this video is Shamrock making a hard turn at the mark to cut off any inside lane for Joust, which is a strange move for a boat with the chute wrapped around the headstay. But Joust appears to be willing to play follow the leader around the mark. Until they see Shamrock turn up like that, then Joust tries to bear off and take their transom. Then, if you watch this video in super slo-mo you can see Shamrock shoot backwards in the last moment.  

I’m sorry, but if Shamrock is in distress they shouldn’t be making racing moves like that. They should bear off, clear the mess, and get back in it. They turned up and put themselves in the path of another boat.

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“(4) Will the cost of repairing the damage be a significant amount relative to the market value of the boat?”

There is cosmetic damage and structural damage.  If the damage is structural can it be repaired tho original factory specs?  Even if the answer is yes, psychologically at least the resale value of the boat may have been compromised.

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19 hours ago, Joakim said:

What is considered significant? 10%? Wouldn't this repair cost about 10%?

What's the point relating to market value? $1,000,000 damage to a superyacht is not serious damage, but $100 to a cheap boat is?

 

Good question, I have no idea.  It seems fairly open to interpretation to me.

4 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

“(4) Will the cost of repairing the damage be a significant amount relative to the market value of the boat?”

There is cosmetic damage and structural damage.  If the damage is structural can it be repaired tho original factory specs?  Even if the answer is yes, psychologically at least the resale value of the boat may have been compromised.

We had a discussion about this, I would say that if it was a new boat then the resale probably would have been compromised however it was an older J111 so I would doubt there would be any effect to resale value.

5 hours ago, The-dude-abides said:

What I see in this video is Shamrock making a hard turn at the mark to cut off any inside lane for Joust, which is a strange move for a boat with the chute wrapped around the headstay. But Joust appears to be willing to play follow the leader around the mark. Until they see Shamrock turn up like that, then Joust tries to bear off and take their transom. Then, if you watch this video in super slo-mo you can see Shamrock shoot backwards in the last moment.  

I’m sorry, but if Shamrock is in distress they shouldn’t be making racing moves like that. They should bear off, clear the mess, and get back in it. They turned up and put themselves in the path of another boat.

I would say that they didn't go backwards at all, what the video doesn't show and they never show very well are some pretty sharp waves.  I think they came off the back of a sharp wave and what looks like them shooting backwards is actually just what any boat of this size would do when slammed off a wave.

One thing I don't want out of here is for Shamrock to get dragged into the shit.  They sailed an awesome race, they sailed some other awesome races as well in what was a tough fleet.  We all have fuckups every now and again, Shamrock had a bad drop in this instance and just ended up slow, if they weren't so slow at that point they would have come off that wave better and probably wouldn't have slowed as much as they did and we wouldn't even be talking about this now.  It's a bit like the swiss cheese analogy, in this case all the holes just lined up and the shit hit the fan.  It's yachting, these things happen.

One thing that I'm personally surprised about is why more boats didn't have drop strings, you can see how easy it made it for us in this situation to get our kite down cleanly where Shamrock and many other boats didn't have them and occasionally had a much harder time getting their kites down.

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