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23 entries and only 2 internationals (an AUS & SUI).....not sure that qualifies as a "Worlds"....more like a nationals with a couple of invites.

And even the country ascribed to the crews is wrong....Team Joust is made up of Aussies, not (as the entry list states) seppos....

Anyway....I'll be watching to see how my mates go, they've made a huge commitment to be there, let's hope it was worth it!

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14 hours ago, Couta said:

23 entries and only 2 internationals (an AUS & SUI).....not sure that qualifies as a "Worlds"....more like a nationals with a couple of invites.

And even the country ascribed to the crews is wrong....Team Joust is made up of Aussies, not (as the entry list states) seppos....

Anyway....I'll be watching to see how my mates go, they've made a huge commitment to be there, let's hope it was worth it!

This is not a new thing. Any one design keel boat over 30' always has more locals turn up yet they are still called "worlds".

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Team Joust (AUS) has at least one Seppo on the crew.

I hear that insurance was a big impediment. That, and that the local organisers didn't lift a finger to facilitate said insurance.

Mex

 

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4 minutes ago, mexican said:

Team Joust (AUS) has at least one Seppo on the crew.

I hear that insurance was a big impediment. That, and that the local organisers didn't lift a finger to facilitate said insurance.

Mex

 

Jesus fucking Christ.... You own a big expensive boat and you need help sorting your insurance?

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A lot of negativity from the armchairs for an event that by most standards has a pretty respectable turnout.  A lot of these US based boats have been campaigned pretty well this year.

 

The big question is, how many of these will end up on the market after this event?

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1 hour ago, RumLine said:

A lot of negativity from the armchairs for an event that by most standards has a pretty respectable turnout.  A lot of these US based boats have been campaigned pretty well this year.

 

The big question is, how many of these will end up on the market after this event?

Haters will be haters; just disregard the trolls.

Does anyone know why Blur3 did not get shipped to Cleveland OH., as previously reported?

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"Haters", "Trolls"..???... FFS there are some sensitive little daisies here.....there has been a question raised over whether an event with only 2 international entries can legitimately call itself a "World Championship"....and a relevant response indicating that uncertainty around insurances has limited the availability of charters....and a single criticism over the apparent lack of support from the organisers to help in this regard. If we are to build the sport, we need to identify and understand the impediments and get to work on them.

I still question the legitimacy of a vastly national fleet calling itself a "Worlds"....but then again, the US has a MLB "world series" with no internationals, so maybe that's just how they roll...makes somebody feel good I guess.

Best of luck to Team Joust....(who are officially listed as having just 2 Aussies on their crew......but in fact are all AUS except one)...it'd be nice to be correctly recognised when you've made the effort to come half way round the world to compete at this event...just sayin'.

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2 hours ago, Couta said:

there has been a question raised over whether an event with only 2 international entries can legitimately call itself a "World Championship".... I still question the legitimacy of a vastly national fleet calling itself a "Worlds"....

Right, like the 2016 Farr 40 Worlds in Sydney with only 3 non-Aus boats...  only about half the number of non-local entries that last year's F40 Worlds in Chicago attracted.

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1 hour ago, JoeO said:

Right, like the 2016 Farr 40 Worlds in Sydney with only 3 non-Aus boats...  only about half the number of non-local entries that last year's F40 Worlds in Chicago attracted.

2013 Farr 40 Worlds, 7 of 15 were non US boats. 2014, 8 of 19 were non US.

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37 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

2013 Farr 40 Worlds, 7 of 15 were non US boats. 2014, 8 of 19 were non US.

That's right... F40 Worlds held in the US seem to get better international participation than the ones held in Aus... just sayin'... maybe coulda shoulda should re-think his rag on the J111 worlds.

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8 hours ago, JoeO said:

That's right... F40 Worlds held in the US seem to get better international participation than the ones held in Aus... just sayin'... maybe coulda shoulda should re-think his rag on the J111 worlds.

Joe..mate you're missing the point by a mile...this isn't about J111 v F40 or AUS v USA...it's the joke that suggests a nationals with a few invited guests constitutes a "World Championship". I've done tens of real "worlds" in significant fleets all over the globe. I agree the pissy fleet of F40s isn't a worlds either....(and I've done one)

So to be clear...this isn't a "rag" on the J111 regatta....it's a question as to whether the winner of this (or any similar event) should be called a "world Champ".....now go and change ya tampon....

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13 hours ago, Couta said:

"Haters", "Trolls"..???... FFS there are some sensitive little daisies here.....there has been a question raised over whether an event with only 2 international entries can legitimately call itself a "World Championship"....and a relevant response indicating that uncertainty around insurances has limited the availability of charters....and a single criticism over the apparent lack of support from the organisers to help in this regard. If we are to build the sport, we need to identify and understand the impediments and get to work on them.

I still question the legitimacy of a vastly national fleet calling itself a "Worlds"....but then again, the US has a MLB "world series" with no internationals, so maybe that's just how they roll...makes somebody feel good I guess.

Best of luck to Team Joust....(who are officially listed as having just 2 Aussies on their crew......but in fact are all AUS except one)...it'd be nice to be correctly recognised when you've made the effort to come half way round the world to compete at this event...just sayin'.

Take it easy, pal, I think you may have swallowed too much salt water over your lifetime.  How would you propose organizers put on events like this?  Call it the "J/111 Worlds*" *Unless of course there aren't enough foreign entries capable of navigating the complicated world of liability insurance, at which point we will call it J/111 Nationals.  You seem to believe that organizers putting this event together name the event AFTER the entries are completed.

 

For the record, the MLB has teams in both the United States and Canada.  In 2019 they've played more international games than ever before, and are finally making progress getting international interest in expansion teams.

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^^^ Rummy....I'd call it the "J111 invitational". That accurately reflects the nature & character of the event. As for defending the MLB....well, the game is played all over the world...it's just that they don't get invited to the "world Series"...it's a joke.

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...so funny the games have yet to begin until 11am CST today and yet the shit slinging is fully underway!

To throw a log on the fire, the one thing that strikes me as ridiculous about this event is that it is Tues - Friday! Why not Thurs - Sunday? Seem like total disregard for the crew's vacation time. In an pro'd up circuit, who cares, but with a 1 pro per boat rule I would think they would be more considerate of the volunteers onboard.

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15 hours ago, Couta said:

there has been a question raised over whether an event with only 2 international entries can legitimately call itself a "World Championship"....

No, there hasn't been a question, because anyone with three brain cells knows the answer.  

A sailing World Championship means only one thing: That the class bas been approved as an International Class by World Sailing and therefore it gets to hold a "World Championship".

 

 

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11 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

2013 Farr 40 Worlds, 7 of 15 were non US boats. 2014, 8 of 19 were non US.

Well that's relevant.  Got any interesting facts from the 2000s or 90s?

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8 minutes ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

...so funny the games have yet to begin until 11am CST today and yet the shit slinging is fully underway!

To throw a log on the fire, the one thing that strikes me as ridiculous about this event is that it is Tues - Friday! Why not Thurs - Sunday? Seem like total disregard for the crew's vacation time. In an pro'd up circuit, who cares, but with a 1 pro per boat rule I would think they would be more considerate of the volunteers onboard.

Really? ...

As a totally amateur person, I can tell you that this is exactly the type of event that you take vacation for. If you're from out of town, weekend airfare is WAY cheaper than weekday.

You're also going to have the lake to yourself for 4 days. You don't want a bunch of stink boats flying through the course on some poker run

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1 minute ago, RATM said:

Really? ...

As a totally amateur person, I can tell you that this is exactly the type of event that you take vacation for. If you're from out of town, weekend airfare is WAY cheaper than weekday.

You're also going to have the lake to yourself for 4 days. You don't want a bunch of stink boats flying through the course on some poker run 

I suppose it is perspective. Time is more valuable than money to some. Also, regarding the race course, they usually setup 5 miles offshore so you generally have the lake to yourself regardless of that day out there.

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Don't know any other mid sized Keelboat with a crew of 7-8 that can pull 23 boats in the US right now.  Kinda lame to throw shit before it even goes down.   I'd be there if these boats didn't have stupid weight limits... 

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15 hours ago, Couta said:

Best of luck to Team Joust....(who are officially listed as having just 2 Aussies on their crew......but in fact are all AUS except one)...it'd be nice to be correctly recognised when you've made the effort to come half way round the world to compete at this event...just sayin'.

For the record, the competitors enter this information into Yacht Scoring.

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1 hour ago, RumLine said:

For the record, the competitors enter this information into Yacht Scoring.

If you look at the "Crew List" in yachtscoring, they have a column for "World Sailing #"

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4 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

AP over A posted at 12 noon on the CYC flagpole. 

Not shocked, that 'little' system is still passing overhead in Northbrook.

hope everyone is having fun down there... go Rowdy.

 

 

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6 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

Well that's relevant.  Got any interesting facts from the 2000s or 90s?

You can look it up just as I did

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7 hours ago, Kack said:

Don't know any other mid sized Keelboat with a crew of 7-8 that can pull 23 boats in the US right now.  Kinda lame to throw shit before it even goes down.   I'd be there if these boats didn't have stupid weight limits... 

IC37

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

No, there hasn't been a question, because anyone with three brain cells knows the answer.  

A sailing World Championship means only one thing: That the class bas been approved as an International Class by World Sailing and therefore it gets to hold a "World Championship".

 

 

You're right Captain Obvious....the point is: Should that be the only criterion? I guess it's about making everyone feel good, but personally I wouldn't equate a win in a World Champs in a laser, Finn, Etchells etc with a win in a regatta that had a coupla dozen boats from a mainly local fleet.....and yet ....that's what WS endorses....so yeah.....good onya....go ahead and call it a world championship, but in demeans the efforts of the winners of other more significant events IMHO.

Incidentally our sport is credited in Wikipedia as having "the most world championships of any sport".....that's something to be proud of....Hmmm.

 

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4 hours ago, Couta said:

You're right Captain Obvious....the point is: Should that be the only criterion? I guess it's about making everyone feel good, but personally I wouldn't equate a win in a World Champs in a laser, Finn, Etchells etc with a win in a regatta that had a coupla dozen boats from a mainly local fleet.....and yet ....that's what WS endorses....so yeah.....good onya....go ahead and call it a world championship, but in demeans the efforts of the winners of other more significant events IMHO.

Incidentally our sport is credited in Wikipedia as having "the most world championships of any sport".....that's something to be proud of....Hmmm.

 

A Worlds is a Worlds... You've got to be in it to win it !

These events are won & lost before the racing begins anyway - The real battle (& achievement) for most lies in simply making it to the start line & participating.

23 boats equates to upwards of 180 competitors alone, plus race officials - Has to be good for the sport, however it's different & hardly comparable to a dinghy event.

So the 2019 TP 52 World Championship will have a fleet of 11 boats - Will the winners be worthy of the title? Absolutely, and how about the "trickle-down" of technology from these great boats !

Incidentally our sport is credited in Wikipedia as having "the most world championships of any sport".....that's something to be proud of....Hmmm. Yes, aren't sailors lucky to have so many opportunities to compete at the highest level across such a broad age spectrum for life !

call it a world championship, but in demeans the efforts of the winners of other more significant events IMHO. That's just nonsense.

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11 minutes ago, Grinder said:

Ignore the hater.  We’re having fun racing these boats in a great fleet.  

Should be a bit more breeze on tomorrow.  Earlier start for more racing.  

 

 

Good luck & enjoy !

Very envious and looking forward to hearing the updates.

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Hey guys...no "haters" here (FFS grow up!) just questioning the concept of what constitutes a "World Championship"...and whether a local, mid week, event of just 23 boats with only 2 boats from somewhere else should justify as a "worlds".

Best of luck to everyone competing...and "go team Joust".

And yes... unlike the vast majority of sailors...I'll be following it.

 

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On 8/20/2019 at 9:39 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

No, there hasn't been a question, because anyone with three brain cells knows the answer.  

A sailing World Championship means only one thing: That the class bas been approved as an International Class by World Sailing and therefore it gets to hold a "World Championship".

 

 

International teams are free to show up. Just pay your entry fees and go sail. This is the same as when "World Championships" are held in other countries. 

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How do i find the results?

I note "Kashmir" crew list below, "Twirler" is doing Leeward runners as a grade 3. The non pros must be bloody good... Thought these boats were OD?

Crew Info

Name Position ISAF Country

Karl Brummel Pit Group 1 USA
Connor Corgard Strategist Group 1 USA
Steve Henderson Owner Group 1 USA
Zachary Hernandez Spinnaker trimmer Group 1 USA
Darren Jones Leeward Runner Group 3 Aus
Michael Mayer   Group 1 USA
Rod Salazar Bow Group 1 United States
Tyler Wolk Mast Group 1 United States

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36 minutes ago, float drop said:

How do i find the results?

I note "Kashmir" crew list below, "Twirler" is doing Leeward runners as a grade 3. The non pros must be bloody good... Thought these boats were OD?

Crew Info

Name Position ISAF Country

Karl Brummel Pit Group 1 USA
Connor Corgard Strategist Group 1 USA
Steve Henderson Owner Group 1 USA
Zachary Hernandez Spinnaker trimmer Group 1 USA
Darren Jones Leeward Runner Group 3 Aus
Michael Mayer   Group 1 USA
Rod Salazar Bow Group 1 United States
Tyler Wolk Mast Group 1 United States

Lots of funny things added into yachtscoring for positions. You can also be a cooler jockey if you choose. I wouldn't read into those much. 

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10 minutes ago, bodega87 said:

Lots of funny things added into yachtscoring for positions. You can also be a cooler jockey if you choose. I wouldn't read into those much. 

Beer Ferry and Snacktician are a couple of positions that have been used

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On 8/21/2019 at 7:07 AM, Couta said:

Hey guys...no "haters" here (FFS grow up!) just questioning the concept of what constitutes a "World Championship"...and whether a local, mid week, event of just 23 boats with only 2 boats from somewhere else should justify as a "worlds".

Best of luck to everyone competing...and "go team Joust".

And yes... unlike the vast majority of sailors...I'll be following it.

 

It's for this reason that if, for example, you were to have an event with 105 Penguins representing 25 nations on a line they have to call it Intergalactics, or class championship.

In my mind it's always been about the quality of the event not the silly name given to it.  

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2 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Shamrock (USA 61666) protest of Varuna (Lällekönig) (SUI 2193)l, and Joust (AUS 1110) results in DSQ of both foreign entries in Race #5.

Welcome to America, thanks for coming...

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Looked like challenging and fun from shore.  Riding down lakeshore in the afternoon seeing the kites flying is a stop and look moment.

Chicago boats are climbing and and doing well.  Keep sailing fast.   5th to 1st only 16 pts difference.

 

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11 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Shamrock (USA 61666) protest of Varuna (Lällekönig) (SUI 2193)l, and Joust (AUS 1110) results in DSQ of both foreign entries in Race #5.

Anyone know the situation...and facts found?

 

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50 minutes ago, Couta said:

Anyone know the situation...and facts found?

 

The written "facts found" are  available to the parties in the protest by request only.

Unfortunately there is no FOIA Request to the P/C available for the "unwashed masses".

I am also interested in the details of Race #6 Kashmir (USA 12) vs Redress - Against a boat causing damage/injury, that was not granted by the P/C. It appears that it relates to Warlock (USA 28).

And there is also another protest already filed: Shamrock (USA 61666) vs Joust (AUS 1110). Hearing to follow ASAP after racing today 8/23/19.

             
 
             

 

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5 hours ago, gullwinkle said:

I'd be willing to bet that Shamrock wants the Joust DSQ changed to a DNE.

Shamrock DNS in both races today and their Protest vs Joust was Withdrawn; wonder why.

Spaceman Spiff wins 2019 J/111 Worlds.

Congratulations to all those having sailed in a fun Regatta.

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8 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

The written "facts found" are  available to the parties in the protest by request only.

Unfortunately there is no FOIA Request to the P/C available for the "unwashed masses".

I am also interested in the details of Race #6 Kashmir (USA 12) vs Redress - Against a boat causing damage/injury, that was not granted by the P/C. It appears that it relates to Warlock (USA 28).

And there is also another protest already filed: Shamrock (USA 61666) vs Joust (AUS 1110). Hearing to follow ASAP after racing today 8/23/19.

             
 
             

 

Ok...so I've not competed in a regatta that has this position....The objective of a protest is to clarify a position with respect to the rules. How does anyone get a lesson if the facts found are kept secret? It suggests that the Protest Committee doesn't want the event discussed....

Seriously? This is ridiculous, esp at a "Worlds" where others in the class are watching and hoping to learn.....

Can't imagine this happening at an Etchells World Champs.

As for the Race 5 incident.....Joust was plain stupid. They appeared to have room & opportunity to avoid Shamrock who was obviously experiencing Kite issues. But that's yacht racing.

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17 minutes ago, Couta said:

Ok...so I've not competed in a regatta that has this position....The objective of a protest is to clarify a position with respect to the rules. How does anyone get a lesson if the facts found are kept secret? It suggests that the Protest Committee doesn't want the event discussed....

Seriously? This is ridiculous, esp at a "Worlds" where others in the class are watching and hoping to learn.....

Can't imagine this happening at an Etchells World Champs.

As for the Race 5 incident.....Joust was plain stupid. They appeared to have room & opportunity to avoid Shamrock who was obviously experiencing Kite issues. But that's yacht racing.

According to the video Shamrock stopped suddenly almost completely when the kite caught wind after rounding. Quite a surprise for Joust and not much she could do at that point. You really don't expect a competitor to do that bad rounding even when you see them having some troubles. 

I wonder are you really required to be prepared for such an unseamanlike rounding.

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3 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Shamrock DNS in both races today and their Protest vs Joust was Withdrawn; wonder why.

Spaceman Spiff wins 2019 J/111 Worlds.

Congratulations to all those having sailed in a fun Regatta.

Bummer about all the protests, but awesome for Spaceman Spiff!  They’ve always been a fun bunch to sail against. 

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5 hours ago, Couta said:

Ok...so I've not competed in a regatta that has this position....The objective of a protest is to clarify a position with respect to the rules. How does anyone get a lesson if the facts found are kept secret? It suggests that the Protest Committee doesn't want the event discussed....

Seriously? This is ridiculous, esp at a "Worlds" where others in the class are watching and hoping to learn.....

Can't imagine this happening at an Etchells World Champs.

As for the Race 5 incident.....Joust was plain stupid. They appeared to have room & opportunity to avoid Shamrock who was obviously experiencing Kite issues. But that's yacht racing.

Agreed.

It is not in the interest of protecting their reputation for the P/C disclose either "the facts found" or the identity of the P/C members at the hearing.

Just like politicians, P/C is concerned with what is good for them in the short term rather than what  is  good for the sport in the long term

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8 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Agreed.

It is not in the interest of protecting their reputation for the P/C disclose either "the facts found" or the identity of the P/C members at the hearing.

Just like politicians, P/C is concerned with what is good for them in the short term rather than what  is  good for the sport in the long term

I dug into this a few years ago.  Why can't completed protest forms be scanned and put on the internet for all to see?

While anyone is sensitive to criticism, it wasn't that the judges don't have thick skin. 

It was that maybe they didn't write the write up as clearly as they should have, or that maybe the pundits of the internet would be shredding every single word on it, the loser of the protest believing every thing on the internet and having to deal with re-opening or appeals of the cases at a much greater level taking more time to get things done. And the belief it wouldn't change the outcome.

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1 hour ago, Grinder said:

Why was there a 36.7 docked at Monroe and a J111 had to be docked in DuSable for the entirety of the regatta?   

 

Could it be that at this time of cravenness in U S history, the 36.7 owner was being even more ignorant and selfish than usual?

By the way, congratulations to you and the crew of ROWDY on a well sailed regatta.

In the 23 boat fleet, the top 5 boats avoided penalties in all 8 races and finished 12 points apart after the only allowed TO.

Top 3 boats finished 9 points apart with one allowed TO, and only 3 points apart with no TOs.

That is close racing !

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1 hour ago, Grinder said:

Why was there a 36.7 docked at Monroe and a J111 had to be docked in DuSable for the entirety of the regatta?   

 

Current Commodore is a former Beneteau Dealer.  Makes sense.

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18 minutes ago, fucket said:

Haven't been around Monroe in a few days, but that 36.7 could be the Commodore's. Reserved docking at Monroe is a privilege of that post.

You are correct, and I apologize for having been too hard in my previous post on Lou who is a good guy.  

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19 hours ago, Joakim said:

According to the video Shamrock stopped suddenly almost completely when the kite caught wind after rounding. Quite a surprise for Joust and not much she could do at that point. You really don't expect a competitor to do that bad rounding even when you see them having some troubles. 

I wonder are you really required to be prepared for such an unseamanlike rounding.

If I were Joust, I would argue, that Shamrock collided with them. Shamrock was actually going backwards.

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20 hours ago, Joakim said:

According to the video Shamrock stopped suddenly almost completely when the kite caught wind after rounding. Quite a surprise for Joust and not much she could do at that point. You really don't expect a competitor to do that bad rounding even when you see them having some troubles. 

I wonder are you really required to be prepared for such an unseamanlike rounding.

That is an absolutely horrible interpretation of that incident, in my opinion.   

 

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1 hour ago, Grinder said:

That is an absolutely horrible interpretation of that incident, in my opinion.   

 

Yep, the video doesn't show everything but if were driving I would have rounded wide and could have easily then come up inside or blasted by outside. Rookie mistake. Or just stupid. Or both.

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3 hours ago, RATM said:

If I were Joust, I would argue, that Shamrock collided with them. Shamrock was actually going backwards.

Dear grandpa,

Please have your children or your grandchildren drive you to an optometrist ASAP; it appears that your vision is seriously impaired.

Have someone with good eyesight view the video and explain to you how at the instant of the impact at least one and perhaps more of the crew aboard Shamrock fell down on their head as if roped in a rodeo. 

Your knowledge of the RRS is worse than your vision.

Joust did the right thing by exonerating their foul with 720 degree turns. 

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2 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Joust did the right thing by exonerating their foul with 720 degree turns. 

Wasn't there an injury and shouldn't Joust have retired?

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3 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Dear grandpa,

Please have your children or your grandchildren drive you to an optometrist ASAP; it appears that your vision is seriously impaired.

Have someone with good eyesight view the video and explain to you how at the instant of the impact at least one and perhaps more of the crew aboard Shamrock fell down on their head as if roped in a rodeo. 

Your knowledge of the RRS is worse than your vision.

Joust did the right thing by exonerating their foul with 720 degree turns. 

At 00:23, Shamrock is going backwards thanks to a backed kite and a wave. I wonder if there is any GPS info out there. 

I am pretty sure that crew members on both boats were thrown around. I think it's called physics. 

Joust performed a world class take down. You can tell they're watching Shamrock struggle with their takedown. Joust's sails are out and they look like they were going take Shamrock's transom. Then the boat they're trying to avoid alters their course.

Shamrock did not perform a seaman-like rounding, I think there is something in the rules about that. Joust hedged their bets by doing a 720 although that could be viewed as an admission of guilt. I think they could have made a case. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ChiGuy said:

Rule 22.3 kicks in only when moving astern by backing sails. I don't think the messy takedown counts as backing sails.

Oh that's rich. Back winded sails are back winded sails.

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7 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Dear grandpa,

Please have your children or your grandchildren drive you to an optometrist ASAP; it appears that your vision is seriously impaired.

Have someone with good eyesight view the video and explain to you how at the instant of the impact at least one and perhaps more of the crew aboard Shamrock fell down on their head as if roped in a rodeo. 

Your knowledge of the RRS is worse than your vision.

Joust did the right thing by exonerating their foul with 720 degree turns. 

Look the video at 0.25x. The driver starts to fall before the impact due to wild stopping caused by the kite and wave.

It's totally abnormal to completely stop at that point. She had rather good momentum just before the rounding and you would expect her to be a bit slow and have poor height while solving issues with the kite, not stop at 1 bl from the mark.

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9 hours ago, Joakim said:

Look the video at 0.25x. The driver starts to fall before the impact due to wild stopping caused by the kite and wave.

It's totally abnormal to completely stop at that point. She had rather good momentum just before the rounding and you would expect her to be a bit slow and have poor height while solving issues with the kite, not stop at 1 bl from the mark.

You look at it; Shamrock's driver falls like a roped steer in a rodeo after Joust hits his boat abaft of him and spins it past head to wind onto starboard tack.

If as you claim, Shamrock "stop(ed) at 1 bl  from the mark" how could they possibly regain enough momentum from a "stop" to sail around the mark?

Please read the RRS ; the boat behind shall keep clear of the boat in front. Since there was no overlap established at the circle, Joust was burdened to keep clear; period, end of sentence.

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4 hours ago, Grinder said:

So this was all Shamrocks fault, is what you clowns are saying?   

Right.   

Sort of. It’s Joust at fault under the rules, but you can’t really blame them for not expecting Shamrock to slam on the brakes like that. It looks to me like a classic case of “shit happens.”  999 out of 1000 times they could’ve rounded that mark without an issue. I can’t really find fault with anyone for that oops, but the RRS have to pick a side. Honestly, in 30 plus years of racing, I’ve never had a boat hit the brakes like that on a bad takedown, and I’ve enjoyed some really bad takedowns. 

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

Sort of. It’s Joust at fault under the rules, but you can’t really blame them for not expecting Shamrock to slam on the brakes like that. It looks to me like a classic case of “shit happens.”  999 out of 1000 times they could’ve rounded that mark without an issue. I can’t really find fault with anyone for that oops, but the RRS have to pick a side. Honestly, in 30 plus years of racing, I’ve never had a boat hit the brakes like that on a bad takedown, and I’ve enjoyed some really bad takedowns. 

Actually, if you look REALLY closely you can see the helm looking over his shoulder, then pretty much straight down at the wheel at the moment of collision. You can see the boat in front has problems, and the breeze is up, so why point at their transom. Is your point that it was unavoidable? That's not correct. 
You said you 'can't blame them'. You're correct. It wasn't reckless, but it was a raised level of risk.

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5 minutes ago, james3232 said:

Actually, if you look REALLY closely you can see the helm looking over his shoulder, then pretty much straight down at the wheel at the moment of collision. You can see the boat in front has problems, and the breeze is up, so why point at their transom. Is your point that it was unavoidable? That's not correct. 
You said you 'can't blame them'. You're correct. It wasn't reckless, but it was a raised level of risk.

We have the advantage of watching the whole thing in instant replay. You don’t have that luxury while ripping into the leeward mark at speed. 
 

I won’t claim it was unavoidable, because every collision is avoidable. I’m just saying I can’t really fault anyone on this one. RRS put fault on Joust, which is correct, but I can’t blame the Joust guys for what happened. 

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1 minute ago, Monkey said:

We have the advantage of watching the whole thing in instant replay. You don’t have that luxury while ripping into the leeward mark at speed. 
 

I won’t claim it was unavoidable, because every collision is avoidable. I’m just saying I can’t really fault anyone on this one. RRS put fault on Joust, which is correct, but I can’t blame the Joust guys for what happened. 

Yup, I agree

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Just my two bobs, I was the bowman on Joust for this.

As you've all seen, Shamrock had a shocker of a drop and we had a fairly good one.  We didn't notice how bad their drop was going, as we were coming up we were looking pretty good to just follow them around the bottom mark.  We eventually noticed that they had slowed and almost stopped in front of us, you can see the point where Rod tries to bear away but it was just too late in the end, from my vantage on the bow I can confirm that the skipper of Shamrock definitely wasn't off his feet until we hit them, that was all us.  Shamrock continued on racing and we got clear, did our turns and continued racing; I think we ended up 6th after all of that.

We approached Shamrock after the race finished, offered our apologies and asked them if everyone was okay.  We both continued on to sail in the next race and Rod went straight over to see them once they got into the dock.  The protest from Shamrock was for Rule 14, we were cleared as being okay and doing what we could to avoid and it was also noted that we admitted our fault and completed our turns, the DSQ was for rule 44.1.

The second protest was because we had floated the idea as a crew of appealing the decision based on the definition of 'serious damage', we then all spoke to the crew off Shamrock on the dock that morning and withdrew our appeal once we found out about the skippers injuries.

In the end, shit happens and this is one of those scenarios where it's easy to say what we should have done at the end of the day after watching the video.  The good things that came out of this are that no one was really seriously injured and that the boats are still around to sail another day.

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29 minutes ago, Stubby said:

Just my two bobs, I was the bowman on Joust for this.

As you've all seen, Shamrock had a shocker of a drop and we had a fairly good one.  We didn't notice how bad their drop was going, as we were coming up we were looking pretty good to just follow them around the bottom mark.  We eventually noticed that they had slowed and almost stopped in front of us, you can see the point where Rod tries to bear away but it was just too late in the end, from my vantage on the bow I can confirm that the skipper of Shamrock definitely wasn't off his feet until we hit them, that was all us.  Shamrock continued on racing and we got clear, did our turns and continued racing; I think we ended up 6th after all of that.

We approached Shamrock after the race finished, offered our apologies and asked them if everyone was okay.  We both continued on to sail in the next race and Rod went straight over to see them once they got into the dock.  The protest from Shamrock was for Rule 14, we were cleared as being okay and doing what we could to avoid and it was also noted that we admitted our fault and completed our turns, the DSQ was for rule 44.1.

The second protest was because we had floated the idea as a crew of appealing the decision based on the definition of 'serious damage', we then all spoke to the crew off Shamrock on the dock that morning and withdrew our appeal once we found out about the skippers injuries.

In the end, shit happens and this is one of those scenarios where it's easy to say what we should have done at the end of the day after watching the video.  The good things that came out of this are that no one was really seriously injured and that the boats are still around to sail another day.

Thank you for the best and most informative post on this thread so far.

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8 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Thank you for the best and most informative post on this thread so far.

Agreed.

Armchair viewers have too many takes on something that doesn't involve them.

Could Joust have slammed it into the space between Shamrock and the mark which they are allowed as long as they have room?  Looked like it was there...

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10 hours ago, proOC said:

Could Joust have slammed it into the space between Shamrock and the mark which they are allowed as long as they have room?  Looked like it was there...

Possibly, it's hard to know.  They came up pretty hard and quick, at the time the bear away was the best option.  We only hit them about a foot forward of the transom so we almost made it, almost doesn't quite cut it though when it comes to avoiding boats.

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On 8/26/2019 at 7:46 AM, proOC said:

... Could Joust have slammed it into the space between Shamrock and the mark which they are allowed as long as they have room?  Looked like it was there...

Perhaps; but unlike @ 13:10 below ...

 

... Joust did not overlap Shamrock before entering the 'zone'.

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On 8/25/2019 at 11:35 PM, Stubby said:

Just my two bobs, I was the bowman on Joust for this.

As you've all seen, Shamrock had a shocker of a drop and we had a fairly good one.  We didn't notice how bad their drop was going, as we were coming up we were looking pretty good to just follow them around the bottom mark.  We eventually noticed that they had slowed and almost stopped in front of us, you can see the point where Rod tries to bear away but it was just too late in the end, from my vantage on the bow I can confirm that the skipper of Shamrock definitely wasn't off his feet until we hit them, that was all us.  Shamrock continued on racing and we got clear, did our turns and continued racing; I think we ended up 6th after all of that.

We approached Shamrock after the race finished, offered our apologies and asked them if everyone was okay.  We both continued on to sail in the next race and Rod went straight over to see them once they got into the dock.  The protest from Shamrock was for Rule 14, we were cleared as being okay and doing what we could to avoid and it was also noted that we admitted our fault and completed our turns, the DSQ was for rule 44.1.

The second protest was because we had floated the idea as a crew of appealing the decision based on the definition of 'serious damage', we then all spoke to the crew off Shamrock on the dock that morning and withdrew our appeal once we found out about the skippers injuries.

In the end, shit happens and this is one of those scenarios where it's easy to say what we should have done at the end of the day after watching the video.  The good things that came out of this are that no one was really seriously injured and that the boats are still around to sail another day.

We all appreciated you guys making the trip and glad no one was more seriously hurt.  I am curious how you thought this damage wasn't considered serious enough to warrant consideration of an appeal?  What is your definition of serious damage?  Seems to me a hull breach qualifies.  I'm not intending to flame you guys, just curious.

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