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I'm a police officer and a swat team member, ask me anything?


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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

Someone I know has met random and in person is a regular guy. The 9/11 crap was tiresome and he went full retard here so I put him on ignore.  IIRC he took a self imposed sabbatical a while back, after returning did fine for some time before going off the reservation again.  I had no idea that he and hoppy had such a thing going before I developed my fan club over at Greta U.  weird shit.  When I first started posting here a local guy who had been a total dick on a race and delivery was trolling for liberals and I taunted him unmercifully (not proud of that at all now) anyway we met, had a couple of beers, did some races together and are still good friends. 

Nobody gets paid here, nobody ever changes their mind and when you lose your sense of humor it's time to turn the lights out and go outside for a nice long walk.  Which I intended to do yesterday but alas and alack am still mostly sitting here avoiding work. 

Well said mate.

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So overall the police in America are incredibly well behaved, but I have no issue admitting there are bad examples out there. Sadly those are the ones that get posted to YouTube. I took 24 calls for s

Dick!  Just saying.  

Yeah, yeah, yeah.    None of us falling for this anymore until we see it in a f**king book.      VG, have you got an old fashioned typewriter and triplicate papers in a store room you ca

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4 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

He got flicked???  Really, When?

 

A few days ago - it seems it was a mass shooting. There were at least one other man (and I use the term loosely,) ,down. 

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

Someone I know has met random and in person is a regular guy. The 9/11 crap was tiresome and he went full retard here so I put him on ignore.  IIRC he took a self imposed sabbatical a while back, after returning did fine for some time before going off the reservation again.  I had no idea that he and hoppy had such a thing going before I developed my fan club over at Greta U.  weird shit.  When I first started posting here a local guy who had been a total dick on a race and delivery was trolling for liberals and I taunted him unmercifully (not proud of that at all now) anyway we met, had a couple of beers, did some races together and are still good friends. 

Nobody gets paid here, nobody ever changes their mind and when you lose your sense of humor it's time to turn the lights out and go outside for a nice long walk.  Which I intended to do yesterday but alas and alack am still mostly sitting here avoiding work. 

Some people are taking this place far too seriously if affects them this way. It’s only a forum on a sailing website.  

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4 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

A few days ago - it seems it was a mass shooting. There were at least one other man (and I use the term loosely,) ,down. 

God bless the SA second amendment. A full auto timeout and banning device. 

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Wait............................... I don't get paid to be here?........ WTF! I was expecting a check before Christmas!

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1 hour ago, mad said:

when you lose your sense of humor it's time to turn the lights out and go outside for a nice long walk

I went on two bike rides today.  And this is after winning my last trial.  I may be humorless, but there is a reason or 1m for it.

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11 hours ago, mad said:

If you take the time to find and follow his posts from the past, you'll find you couldn't be further from the truth with that comment.

Ah, Australian context. Everyone is a wanker until you sit down and have a beer with them. I'm not going to unconditionally  praise someone until I know they'll get their round in am I? 

(And likely one afterwards as well, but our sort of wanker.)

Don't you read all the stories from down here - "Had this guy Attilla trying to stick a bit of a knife into me. Chilled over a couple of beers, now he's staying out ours for a few days. Not a bad bloke overall"

Oh, and Methamphetamines are mostly referred to as Ice here. As in "Ice epidemic destroying teenagers lives". Remember we don't have a friendly neighbour to the south to supply us with copious quality coke.

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37 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Wait............................... I don't get paid to be here?........ WTF! I was expecting a check before Christmas!

Send me your banking info (routing and account number) and I'll make sure you have a nice xmas surprise! :o

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

Send me your banking info (routing and account number) and I'll make sure you have a nice xmas surprise! :o

Oh..... Sure.  Thank you! Send me your mailing address, mother's maiden name, birth date and SS# so I don't get it wrong. I won't send sensitive info over the internet, But I assure you that I'll keep your info confidential.

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3 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Oh..... Sure.  Thank you! Send me your mailing address, mother's maiden name, birth date and SS# so I don't get it wrong. I won't send sensitive info over the internet, But I assure you that I'll keep your info confidential.

1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW

Washington DC 203500

etc.  

Just don't release my tax returns.  

 

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2 hours ago, Se7en said:

Remember we don't have a friendly neighbour to the south to supply us with copious quality coke.

True but they have some great wine and Gin.

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I've noticed some of this lately, in my area, cops individually, and unofficially sponsor their "Have a doughnut with a cop" or "have a coffee with a cop." It seems like the old ride-along thing, but maybe more accessible. Your popular SA thread seems to be like that. Back when I was a kid, cops had beats. They walked around their assigned neighborhoods, the neighbors knew them. Then things got more decentralized, the equipment got heavier than a billy club, and cops started living in their cars or their desks.

Here's my question Vernon ... Is this unstructured, or are police advocacy organizations encouraging any of this public outreach to return some of the approach of the beat cop?

 

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8 hours ago, LB 15 said:

True but they have some great wine and Gin.

Just because they charge for Gin as if it was coke, doesn't mean its any good. And drinking any of their reds makes my mouth look like a cats arse. (As opposed to normally looking like a discarded sandshoe)

Craft gin is the biggest wank since dropping an umbrella in a rum and coke and calling it a cuba libre.

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7 hours ago, mikewof said:

I've noticed some of this lately, in my area, cops individually, and unofficially sponsor their "Have a doughnut with a cop" or "have a coffee with a cop." It seems like the old ride-along thing, but maybe more accessible. Your popular SA thread seems to be like that. Back when I was a kid, cops had beats. They walked around their assigned neighborhoods, the neighbors knew them. Then things got more decentralized, the equipment got heavier than a billy club, and cops started living in their cars or their desks.

Here's my question Vernon ... Is this unstructured, or are police advocacy organizations encouraging any of this public outreach to return some of the approach of the beat cop?

 

Some of both, it is pushed pretty hard by administrations, but I also see it a lot at a personal level. Some officers enjoy it, some do not. 

 

The biggest issue is the people who willingly come to those type of events are rarely the ones we need to reach out to.

 

The community I work for is about 10k people give or take a few for deaths or births. It is small enough quite a few people know our names. We go to community events and make it a point to be involved. That is one of the main reasons why I have stayed at the smaller department. It allows me to get to know the citizens.

One of our biggest pushes was having officers begin commenting on a local neighborhood social media page as themselves. So I comment as Vernon Green, that group has 5k citizens in it and they know we are officers. There have been some complications, but overall it has helped put a personal face on the police department.

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19 minutes ago, V. Green said:

Some of both, it is pushed pretty hard by administrations, but I also see it a lot at a personal level. Some officers enjoy it, some do not. 

 

The biggest issue is the people who willingly come to those type of events are rarely the ones we need to reach out to.

 

The community I work for is about 10k people give or take a few for deaths or births. It is small enough quite a few people know our names. We go to community events and make it a point to be involved. That is one of the main reasons why I have stayed at the smaller department. It allows me to get to know the citizens.

One of our biggest pushes was having officers begin commenting on a local neighborhood social media page as themselves. So I comment as Vernon Green, that group has 5k citizens in it and they know we are officers. There have been some complications, but overall it has helped put a personal face on the police department.

Are ride-alongs as popular as they used to be?

The coffee-with-a-cop and donut-with-a-cop are promoted in my neighborhood through the NextDoor app.

Anyway, it sounds fun to me, at least people find your job intetesting, it's a highly social job. Nobody wants to talk about molecular physics with me, even other physicists prefer to talk about sports, booze and doomed relationships.

Does it seem to you that correctional officers have a somewhat lonelier job than community officers? 

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3 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Are ride-alongs as popular as they used to be?

The coffee-with-a-cop and donut-with-a-cop are promoted in my neighborhood through the NextDoor app.

Anyway, it sounds fun to me, at least people find your job intetesting, it's a highly social job. Nobody wants to talk about molecular physics with me, even other physicists prefer to talk about sports, booze and women.

Does it seem to you that correctional officers have a somewhat lonelier job than community officers? 

We do quite a few ride alongs, but i would estimate 90% of them are potential applicants. We have one guy who does 2 every six months which is the limit we allow. He is a character to say the least, he takes notes and I am pretty sure it is the highlight of his day.

 

Go to one of the coffee with a cop things. They are fun and you can meet some of your local cops. You will realize quickly we are all just regular people. The job is an incredibly social job, the majority of my day is spent talking to people. Whether it is at a call or at the local gas station. 

 

So locally correctional officers are a different group of people. They are not commissioned law enforcement officers and in my experience they are not as professional or trustworthy as police officers. At a federal level my understanding is they are extremely professional, and I am sure there are places where it is different. But here in my county it is a job that pays just above minimum wage, they have minimal training, and overall I rarely trust them.  I rarely see cops try and encourage someone to fight them, but when I take people to county jail the unprofessional CO's there have a way of egging on everyone. I have taken back custody of multiple arrestees until I could get a supervisor there due to the behavior of the CO's.

With all that in mind, I would hate their job, everyone you interact with is in jail/prison, at least on the street I get to see good people. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, V. Green said:

We do quite a few ride alongs, but i would estimate 90% of them are potential applicants. We have one guy who does 2 every six months which is the limit we allow. He is a character to say the least, he takes notes and I am pretty sure it is the highlight of his day.

 

Go to one of the coffee with a cop things. They are fun and you can meet some of your local cops. You will realize quickly we are all just regular people. The job is an incredibly social job, the majority of my day is spent talking to people. Whether it is at a call or at the local gas station. 

 

So locally correctional officers are a different group of people. They are not commissioned law enforcement officers and in my experience they are not as professional or trustworthy as police officers. At a federal level my understanding is they are extremely professional, and I am sure there are places where it is different. But here in my county it is a job that pays just above minimum wage, they have minimal training, and overall I rarely trust them.  I rarely see cops try and encourage someone to fight them, but when I take people to county jail the unprofessional CO's there have a way of egging on everyone. I have taken back custody of multiple arrestees until I could get a supervisor there due to the behavior of the CO's.

With all that in mind, I would hate their job, everyone you interact with is in jail/prison, at least on the street I get to see good people. 

I don't need to do the coffee thing, I get shitfaced with my neighborhood cops at my local sleaze lounge, and my next door buddy is the sheriff's deputy.

But yeah, that was my concern with correctional, though my friend's dad was correctional at Riker's, he supposedly was extra polite to the prisoners because he would tend to run into them in the neighborhood eventually. He had the odd placement of carrying a weapon off-duty, to protect himself in case a former prisoner had a grudge, and he had no weapon on duty, because he was in the ward with the prisoners.

It's funny though to see some of these corrections officers who are mommies and daddies, and who report little stress from handling hardened criminals, but their own children can push them to this edge of insanity at the playground.

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On 10/2/2019 at 10:56 PM, LB 15 said:

In reality he is Ok. He does step over the line with his trolling sometimes.

He will be back.

Hangs out in sock drawer ??

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4 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

That would honestly be cool technology, maybe a scan that searches warrant data bases and confirms if someone has a warrant while I am speaking to them. 

 

I can see some of the worry, but their biggest protest is they believe the technology will make more mistakes related to people of color. So it's racist according to them. 

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4 minutes ago, V. Green said:

 

That would honestly be cool technology, maybe a scan that searches warrant data bases and confirms if someone has a warrant while I am speaking to them. 

but their biggest protest is they believe the technology will make more mistakes related to people of color. So it's racist according to them. 

It would also be cool (for you) technology if everyone had RFID tags embedded under their skin or a bar code on their neck that you could scan with some kind of tool, but I hope you would be against its implementation.

The biggest protest is not the racism - it is the real fear of living in a surveillance state.  The second biggest protest is the discretion in using body cams that is allowed by departments who don't immediately fire cops who turn their body cameras off for any reason.  The proven errors of facial recognition - specifically the much higher % misidentification of racial minorities - is another point of protest by people who value accuracy among tools used to put people in jail.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, V. Green said:

That would honestly be cool technology, maybe a scan that searches warrant data bases and confirms if someone has a warrant while I am speaking to them. 

 

I can see some of the worry, but their biggest protest is they believe the technology will make more mistakes related to people of color. So it's racist according to them. 

DAGO has been installing observation cameras in streetlights everywhere

If you have Notzing to Hide you have Notzing to Fear

Ya Right I remember when 1984 WAS a Horrific Thought . We are Sooooo Worse than that today !!!

 

The face recognition would be kool if it gave a Happy Beep meaning Licence, Insurance, Registration A-OK and No Wants/Warrants .... So Be Nice and not bother

But No it would only be for Bad and I would Hate to be confused with someone Active Armed & Dangerous then get Killed reaching slowly for wallet of fone

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On 9/24/2019 at 11:47 AM, DA-WOODY said:

Thoughts on This ASS Clown

Sep 4, 2019 · The law Newsom struck down Tuesday, the California Posse Comitatus Act, dated back to 1872 and made it a misdemeanor for any “able-bodied person 18 years of age or older” to refuse a police officer’s call for assistance in making an arrest, The Sacramento Bee reported.

I will just leave this here woodman...  You have to remember, No?

 

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Hello, I would be very interested in your thoughts on the US v UK style of policing.  You have previously said that you are a strong believer in the US 2nd Amendment.  Do you think this makes the US a better place to live and work, especially as a police officer.

Some statistics while acknowledging that the population of the US is approx 325million, while England and Wales is approx 70 million - so USA has roughly 5 times the population of England and Wales

Number of people shot by US Police officers - 2018 police shot and killed 998 people, 11 more than the 987 they fatally shot in 2017. In 2016, police killed 963 people, and 995 in 2015. Ref: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/police-shootings-us-death-toll-gun-control-officers-a8777046.html

Number of people shot by England and Wales Police officers - 2017/18  - 4 shot  ref: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/statistics/deaths_during_following_police_contact_201718.pdf

2016/17 - 6 shot ref: https://www.statewatch.org/news/2018/feb/uk-ipcc-deaths-during-following-police-contact-16-17.pdf

 

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On 9/23/2019 at 9:50 PM, V. Green said:

 

Have any questions you have wanted to ask a cop, now is your chance. Keep it civil.

 

You ever run into this problem?

https://www.tmz.com/2019/10/10/miami-beach-cop-suspended-sexy-video-models-apologize-francia-james-maddy-belle/

 

PLAYBOY MODEL FRANCIA JAMESSORRY WE GOT MIAMI COP SUSPENDED ...Sexy Video Was Harmless!!!

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

It would also be cool (for you) technology if everyone had RFID tags embedded under their skin or a bar code on their neck that you could scan with some kind of tool, but I hope you would be against its implementation.

The biggest protest is not the racism - it is the real fear of living in a surveillance state.  The second biggest protest is the discretion in using body cams that is allowed by departments who don't immediately fire cops who turn their body cameras off for any reason.  The proven errors of facial recognition - specifically the much higher % misidentification of racial minorities - is another point of protest by people who value accuracy among tools used to put people in jail.

It seems that the necessary base of knowledge here to police and not encroach onto personal liberties may be at odds with each other.

Do any police departments hire ranking citizens rights advocates to guide the enforcement division's to the correct decisions? Not some ignorable dweeb in a back office, but rather a high ranking rights protection officer who can direct policy in the field and staff briefings?

Probably would save money in the long run when these departments can gain the tools to help avoid abuse lawsuits, over a billion dollars a year at this point. https://www.wsj.com/articles/cost-of-police-misconduct-cases-soars-in-big-u-s-cities-1437013834

It effects us all, we all need to pay the bill, due to a small percentage of officers in each department.

Some lawyers might be cool with government public servant jobs with a reliable paycheck and a pension, rather than being pulled in after the horse left the gate, huh?

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

 

Do any police departments hire ranking citizens rights advocates to guide the enforcement division's to the correct decisions?

Looking at the local dim bulbs on city council, and the yo-yo's who have the time and inclination to participate in local government, I foresee this as a disaster.

Seriously, some of the people who want to, and do participate in local government are out of touch completely.  In their hearts they are helping and doing the right thing, but wow... some of the ideas, implementation and oversight is staggeringly bad.

And what is interesting is that in the aftermath of a botched project, they will admit it was an abject failure, and with a gleam in their eyes they plunge into the next bad idea.  The more money to spend the brighter the gleam.

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6 minutes ago, Windward said:

Looking at the local dim bulbs on city council, and the yo-yo's who have the time and inclination to participate in local government, I foresee this as a disaster.

Seriously, some of the people who want to, and do participate in local government are out of touch completely.  In their hearts they are helping and doing the right thing, but wow... some of the ideas, implementation and oversight is staggeringly bad.

And what is interesting is that in the aftermath of a botched project, they will admit it was an abject failure, and with a gleam in their eyes they plunge into the next bad idea.  The more money to spend the brighter the gleam.

Plenty of PDs in educated areas pay smart atttorneys to train the cops.  Not that hard to do.  Honest cops listen. Dirty cops don't.

If you don't like your elected officials, do something about it.

 

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16 minutes ago, Windward said:

Looking at the local dim bulbs on city council, and the yo-yo's who have the time and inclination to participate in local government, I foresee this as a disaster.

Seriously, some of the people who want to, and do participate in local government are out of touch completely.  In their hearts they are helping and doing the right thing, but wow... some of the ideas, implementation and oversight is staggeringly bad.

And what is interesting is that in the aftermath of a botched project, they will admit it was an abject failure, and with a gleam in their eyes they plunge into the next bad idea.  The more money to spend the brighter the gleam.

I don't know what your city councils are like. In this area they tend to be commandeered by real estate interests, so that the public interest can be steered to land grabs, unbalanced land swaps and general profit-driven mayhem.

This isn't a squishy goal though. The ideas that Clean presented are clearly codified in State Constitutions and the Bill of Rights. City councils should have no more ability to rob people of their natural rights than police departments.

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13 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Plenty of PDs in educated areas pay smart atttorneys to train the cops.  Not that hard to do.  Honest cops listen. Dirty cops don't.

If you don't like your elected officials, do something about it.

Police departments are civilian. The ability of the employees to act in a rational and Constitutional manner shouldn't just be a matter of training, but also of on-the-job enforcement.

If my company finds that I've misappropriated so much as a single paper clip, I can be subject to an enforcement action. The vast majority of "honest cops" deserve the oversight of a superior who has no conflict of interest in protecting that cop's compliance with the laws to which they are subject.

An internal committee responds to transgressions after they happen, with little or no ability to monitor on-the-job performance.

I agree with Windward that some dim-bulbs can potentially screw it up. But as long as their are lawyers to pounce on human rights abuses and run up that annual billion dollar bill, there is a clear profit-driven engine to get these departments to value highly the rights of their constituents as fully as the safety of their officers.

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30 minutes ago, mikewof said:

I don't know what your city councils are like. In this area they tend to be commandeered by real estate interests, so that the public interest can be steered to land grabs, unbalanced land swaps and general profit-driven mayhem.

 

Real estate interests tend to commandeer unsophisticated councils/commissions so they can develop property. Once they develop enough property, the more affluent homeowners tend to boot their asses out (and it's usually a lawyer looking to protect her/his home value).

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24 minutes ago, mikewof said:

 

If my company finds that I've misappropriated so much as a single paper clip, I can be subject to an enforcement action. The vast majority of "honest cops" deserve the oversight of a superior who has no conflict of interest in protecting that cop's compliance with the laws to which they are subject.

 

Most of the time I believe the 'majority are honest cops' thing.  Then I read something like this and wonder if every PD has 16 cops who would break the law to protect one of their own who killed the fuck out of a man.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xwe784/heres-how-chicago-cops-really-covered-up-the-murder-of-laquan-mcdonald

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Most of the time I believe the 'majority are honest cops' thing.  Then I read something like this and wonder if every PD has 16 cops who would break the law to protect one of their own who killed the fuck out of a man.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xwe784/heres-how-chicago-cops-really-covered-up-the-murder-of-laquan-mcdonald

Sadly, I believe that in large departments such as Chicago and other large cities you see more corruption. Also, many of those large cities are scraping the bottom of the barrel to hire officers because the working conditions have gotten so bad. When the administration doesn't have your back the good and smart cops leave.  I can see how you could end up with an entire division where many are corrupt. Hell, there LAPD has entire gang sets within their ranks. Cops tatted up with blood and crip tattoos. 

That goes well over my head. I can speak for my department and the others I have interaction with regularly. 

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5 minutes ago, V. Green said:

Sadly, I believe that in large departments such as Chicago and other large cities you see more corruption. Also, many of those large cities are scraping the bottom of the barrel to hire officers because the working conditions have gotten so bad. When the administration doesn't have your back the good and smart cops leave.  I can see how you could end up with an entire division where many are corrupt. Hell, there LAPD has entire gang sets within their ranks. Cops tatted up with blood and crip tattoos. 

That goes well over my head. I can speak for my department and the others I have interaction with regularly. 

what percentage of the cops in your dept would probably cover up an unjustified white on black shooting?  We all know it is never going to be 0.0.

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The town I grew up in, and lived a vast majority of my life in, was policed by (generally) really good people. Sure there were bad eggs every so often, but to be honest, they were usually rookie new hires from out of town.

 There was the one guy..... Local.... Made it to corporal I think.... Who used to find out where the high school keg parties were going to be, out in the woods.... He'd cruise in dark, and silent, then just show up on the edge of the bonfire....

 He'd tell everyone to get lost, except one guy, who he'd put in the back seat...... But he wouldn't call it in, and he wouldn't go back to the station. He'd take the guy to his house, where his very attractive young wife would be waiting, with weed, coke, whatever..... If the kid wouldn't fuck the wife, his option was to get busted......

 Eventually enough guys had the same story, and the cop got stung......

 Real nice guy on patrol..... Name was(is) "Putz"........ Not kidding.

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Reminds me of a good mate who was done for possession of weed. 

When he got to Court the charge was read out “Possession of 100 grams Marijuana.” To which my mate responded;

”No way your Honour! There was heaps more than that! More like a Kilo and a half. Where’s all my stash gone?”

After a brief discussion between the po po and the prosecution. The case was dismissed. 

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9 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Plenty of PDs in educated areas pay smart atttorneys to train the cops.  Not that hard to do.  Honest cops listen. Dirty cops don't.

If you don't like your elected officials, do something about it.

 

WHAT ???

like being the drunk sailor playin 3 card Monty .......

I would sell my right to vote for $75 = Whey More than it is ACTUALLY Worth today !!

 

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

stained

FTFY

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1 hour ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

Well, OK.

Any thoughts on the case of Blackwell Police Lieutenant John Mitchell?

I am not a police officer, although I did work quite a bit with police officers and investigators in the course of my duties in medical and mental health environments.  But I would like to offer some Thoughts.

First and foremost, there isn't a lot of detailed information on the web about this case.  The article you linked here has the most details.  So any thoughts here are pure speculation based on the few facts that are available.

The article states that the perpetrator had fired shots at her mother and then drove around town firing twice at police (they didn't state when and where) and at a pedestrian.  OK, that's pretty dangerous behavior.  The article goes on to state that Lt. Mitchell was pursuing the perpetrators vehicle.  It isn't stated if the perpetrator fired at Lt. Mitchell's vehicle or at a second police car that was also following her.  Given the other details in the article I am going to say no.  The article goes on to say that Lt. Mitchell proceed to fire 60 rounds from his M-16 through the windshield of his vehicle at the perpetrator's vehicle.  At some point the officers found the vehicle turned a corner, stopped and the 2 officers shot additional rounds into the vehicle.  Then they discovered the woman dead in the vehicle.  A later examination revealed she had sustained 10 bullet wounds.

To my mind is what information is missing that the Grand Jury had access to.  The article linked was on a website for Police Professionals, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they had some bias.  Much of the information in the article was provided by Lt. Mitchell's defense attorney, again I think we can assume some bias.  

Did the perpetrator fire directly at Lt. Mitchell, or at other officers before he appeared?  The article doesn't make that clear, only that she fired at officers at some point.  Is it normal police procedure for an officer to fire an automatic weapon through their vehicle windshield while in pursuit of a suspect?  Is it normal police procedure to fire multiple rounds into a suspects vehicle that is stopped on the road?  There is no direct information that the perpetrator fired at Lt. Mitchell during or after the chase.  Given that the woman was struck by 10 bullets, and that shooting through the windshield of a moving vehicle at another moving vehicle probably doesn't insure optimum accuracy, I will presume some of the fatal bullets were fired after the chase ended. 

While I can understand the danger of an armed suspect known to already have shot at other people and police is high, there are other ways to end the situation besides filling the suspects car and body with bullets from a high velocity rifle.  Once the vehicle had stopped, did they wait a moment to see any movement?  The incident occurred in the early hours of the morning, I doubt the streets were full of people.  What other steps besides filling the car with bullets did police take to stop the vehicle?   

There are many unanswered questions here.  On the one hand, one could make a case that the only way to stop the perpetrator safely was to do what they did.  On the other hand perhaps other means or tactics were available to apprehend the perpetrator without filling her with lead first.  The Grand Jury no doubt heard testimony that we don't have access to and they felt there was enough evidence for a charge of 2nd degree murder.  In my examination of the available information, it seems there indeed could be a legitimate basis for that charge.  Police officers are not ordinary armed citizens.  They have training in firearms and active shooter tactics.  The article said that Lt. Mitchell had attended active shooter training. I fully understand a police officer's duty to protect others and Lt. Mitchell's desire to protect himself.  However in the adrenaline filled chase and the fact that the perpetrator had fired shots at some police at some point may interfere with proper judgement.  I don't think that police are allowed to become the judge and jury and mete out a death sentence because they are pissed off and emotionally wound up.  The information in the linked article and other articles I read on the web appear to give vague information in matters that could put Lt. Mitchell in a bad light, and concrete details for information that could be exculpatory to the officer.  I don't think that's an accident.

Police officers and prosecutors work together all of the time.  Generally speaking, prosecutors often give the benefit of the doubt to police personnel and they often are on good terms with each other.  These people need to get along to effectively work together to insure justice (in theory anyway).  I find it hard to believe that a prosecutor would bring murder charges against a police officer without a pretty good reason.  Of course, I could be wrong, and agree with some of the comments on the web, that it's all Obama's fault that the Lt. Mitchell was indicted.

It will be interesting to see what further information is revealed in this case and what the outcome of the trial would be.  

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5 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

That's complete horseshit.  A cop does what he or she has to do to take down an active shooter.  Firing at her while moving to get the vehicle stopped does not seem unwarranted to me and shooting her again once stopped also doesn't seem to out of the ordinary given that she's already displayed intent to shoot cops.  It matters zero whether she directly shot at these particular officers, she had already displayed intent to shoot pretty much anyone nearby, so they had a duty to end the threat to the public.  

THE absolute easiest way to avoid being shot by the Po-Leece is to not shoot at them first.  

And BTW edward - it was an AR-15, not an M-16.  There is a significant difference.  Nice job being a deliberately disingenuous douche camel.

 I made it as far as "But I would like to offer some Thoughts."  You actually read that drivel?

 

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41 minutes ago, Bluto said:

 I made it as far as "But I would like to offer some Thoughts."  You actually read that drivel?

 

You actually took the time to write that?

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51 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

That's complete horseshit.  A cop does what he or she has to do to take down an active shooter.  Firing at her while moving to get the vehicle stopped does not seem unwarranted to me and shooting her again once stopped also doesn't seem to out of the ordinary given that she's already displayed intent to shoot cops.  It matters zero whether she directly shot at these particular officers, she had already displayed intent to shoot pretty much anyone nearby, so they had a duty to end the threat to the public.  

THE absolute easiest way to avoid being shot by the Po-Leece is to not shoot at them first.  

And BTW edward - it was an AR-15, not an M-16.  There is a significant difference.  Nice job being a deliberately disingenuous douche camel.

Whatever Jeff.  A police officer shouldn't be the judge, jury and executioner.  You and I don't know the circumstances.  Police often arrest mass shooters alive, without pumping them full of holes.  If they end up dead it's usually by their own hand.  Grand juries rarely indict police officer for any reason because prosecutors rarely bring police before a grand jury unless they are very confident that some serious wrongdoing occurred.  It's those 2A nuts such as yourself that are partially responsible for creating the environment for these things to happen, and it's pseudo macho types like you that cheer on legal murder.  Of course the woman was shooting but that doesn't mean the police have an automatic right to kill her.  There is a good possibility that the woman suffered from mental health issues.  Lt. Mitchell appears to be some kind of cowboy, gas pedal floored,  shooting through the windshield of his moving vehicle while in hot pursuit.  He probably had an orgasm while he was doing it, he was so excited. And take a deep breath, the M-16 thing was just a reflexive typo from my military experience.  And there is more disingenuous information in that article than my accidental slip of the tongue and it's a fact that some police departments use the M-4 carbine which IS a military weapon and I am sure there are ones the use the M-16 as well.  Your whining about the difference between an M-16 and an AR-15 is about the same as the people you make fun of for using the term assault rifle, and scary black guns.  They both fire .223 rounds which kill equally well.

When I was young, my generation was out on the streets protesting a stupid war and police brutality. Police then were called pigs often for a reason.  Did you ever watch video of the Chicago '68 Democratic Convention.   I watched it live on TV in my parents basement into the wee hours of the night.  The police were beating the protesters with clubs long after they had sufficiently subdued them. And by golly almost everyone of the protesters were that were arrested, were released the next day.   But the behavior of pigs of those days was nothing compared to the today's Rambo wannabes, in full tactical gear, driving around in armored vehicles, just hoping and praying for an active shooter situation, so they can get some.  The Kent State Massacre was pretty bad too but at least it was the National Guard that did the murdering (because those kids threw rocks at us!) not the police.

The majority of police are good guys, like Vernon.  But there are enough out there like Lt. Mitchell living out their real man fantasies, and it's sickening

Of course you work as a highly paid mercenary in a totalitarian state disguised with a thin veneer of democratic behavior, and for you, armed thugs meting out lethal street justice is a good thing.

You are a self entitled, supercilious prick at best Jeff, I think your camel is lonely and calling you.  You better go satisfy her.  All of the guns in the world will never compensate you for your minuscule penis.  When will you ever learn that?   BTW nice selfie of you and your precious.

image.png.01b001d5f6344c9639a1eead9f933680.png

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

You actually took the time to write that?

 I've read enough of your essays recently to know you've got a whole lot of nothing to say about everything. You're making Wofsey look like a lightweight. 

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24 minutes ago, Bluto said:

 I've read enough of your essays recently to know you've got a whole lot of nothing to say about everything. You're making Wofsey look like a lightweight. 

So don't read my posts then. Simple enough.

Wofsey is a lightweight.

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Happy December Vernon.

 Stupid season is upon us. Let's hope we all make it through in one piece.

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It is a violent world and the human animal is dangerous and unpredictable. I carry because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. I am grateful they are there and continue to be the thin blue line between civilised, law abiding citizens and the wolves that would prey on them

Thanks Vernon, for all that you and those in your profession do and sacrifice on behalf of the rest of us. 

Be safe

 

WL2

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On 12/3/2019 at 2:14 PM, White Lightning2 said:

It is a violent world and the human animal is dangerous and unpredictable. I carry because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. I am grateful they are there and continue to be the thin blue line between civilised, law abiding citizens and the wolves that would prey on them

Thanks Vernon, for all that you and those in your profession do and sacrifice on behalf of the rest of us. 

Be safe

 

WL2

Agreed.   A buddy of mine once said, "You do realize if you decide to carry a weapon you have to be prepared to be in a gun fight."  I am still not sure whether or not I could pull the trigger if the time ever comes, but I would rather have the option than not.

MS

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1 hour ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

Agreed.   A buddy of mine once said, "You do realize if you decide to carry a weapon you have to be prepared to be in a gun fight."  I am still not sure whether or not I could pull the trigger if the time ever comes, but I would rather have the option than not.

MS

If you're not certain you can shoot to kill a person.... in fact, if you don't devote at least a couple of hours a month practicing to do so... you should not carry a firearm as part of your daily routine. The odds are very very high that you will never do so. But if you are going to spend the money and take the risk of carrying (and don't underestimate the risk) then to not be able to use it negates the whole point.

Just my humble opinion, it's a free country.

- DSK

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53 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

If you're not certain you can shoot to kill a person.... in fact, if you don't devote at least a couple of hours a month practicing to do so... you should not carry a firearm as part of your daily routine. The odds are very very high that you will never do so. But if you are going to spend the money and take the risk of carrying (and don't underestimate the risk) then to not be able to use it negates the whole point.

Just my humble opinion, it's a free country.

- DSK

I practice at least 1 hour every week with my EDC firearm and over the last few months I have taken several classes to get better at drawing from concealment, responding to dynamic situations, etc.  To this point in my 50+ years on this planet I have never been faced with a situation where I had to choose if I live or someone/something else does.  All the practice in the world will not help me rationalize the finality of that decision.  I carry because if I am ever faced with that decision I assume my training will kick in.  It is my conscious self when I am sitting at the computer that wonders if I can pull the trigger when/if the time comes.

MS

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10 minutes ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

I practice at least 1 hour every week with my EDC firearm and over the last few months I have taken several classes to get better at drawing from concealment, responding to dynamic situations, etc.  To this point in my 50+ years on this planet I have never been faced with a situation where I had to choose if I live or someone/something else does.  All the practice in the world will not help me rationalize the finality of that decision.  I carry because if I am ever faced with that decision I assume my training will kick in.  It is my conscious self when I am sitting at the computer that wonders if I can pull the trigger when/if the time comes.

MS

Sounds like you are doing all the right stuff. I carried for years and I trained too although not with stuff like concealment.  Never came close to having to make THE decision, thank God; I worried more about an accident or having it stolen (which is far more likely).

I believe that some tragedies are due to the wrong kind of training; practicing quick draw and quick-kill specifically. You really really want to have your mind consciously make the decision that you need to kill somebody, THEN have reflexes take over. Nowadays I do not miss having a firearm on my person at all.

- DSK

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Practicing to be proficient with a firearm != having the mindset to kill someone.

In fact, I HOPE that anyone with a CCW does NOT have a certainty they can kill someone.  However, good training means they will probably do what is necessary to protect themselves and others should that ever become necessary.  But I think its not only foolish to think someone could do it with "certainty" but it's also not someone I would want carrying a weapon around.  I think anyone who says they could do it for certain (never having killed anyone before) is either lying to themselves or is a socio/psychopath.  

On the same note... being certain that you -can- kill somebody if necessary is not at all the same as being eager to do so.

FWIW I agree that a mentally healthy person would harbor doubt. About this, and many things. It's the nature of thought.

- DSK

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3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Is there something you want to tell us Mad?  It's OK, we are all friends here.  Mostly.

It’s another one from LB15s favourites page. :blink:

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Too the OP.

What are your thought on the UPS clusterfuck shootout in Miami.  Are the cops guilty of 2nd degree murder or merely negligent homicide?

Edit.  It appears they were using passenger vehicles for cover which seems kind of stupid if not cowardly 
 

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1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

Too the OP.

What are your thought on the UPS clusterfuck shootout in Miami.  Are the cops guilty of 2nd degree murder or merely negligent homicide?

Edit.  It appears they were using passenger vehicles for cover which seems kind of stupid if not cowardly 
 

Trolling again Gator.  You really need a new MO if you’re gonna deny this sock. 

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23 hours ago, Fakenews said:

Too the OP.

What are your thought on the UPS clusterfuck shootout in Miami.  Are the cops guilty of 2nd degree murder or merely negligent homicide?

Edit.  It appears they were using passenger vehicles for cover which seems kind of stupid if not cowardly 
 

I'll be honest I haven't seen much about it so I went and looked at it just now. 

Using the 3rd party vehicles for cover is not okay in my mind. We are trained on a topic we call "priority of life". #1 is always innocent people or unwilling participants, they do not have the option to uninvolved themselves. That could be a hostage or bystander. Decisions being made by the police on scene should always be towards protecting the life of those people. #2 is officers on scene, they are what I call a willing participant. At any time they can lay down their gun and badge and say F this. #3 is the bad guy or suspect, he is also a willing participant, he can peacefully surrender at any time and he will be safe. 

So using that criteria the officers using the bystanders vehicle would not fit at all. 

The sad reality is that if bad guys go on a shooting spree and are not contained in a limited area the chances of no innocent people being harmed by either the bad guy or the police is very low.  The average officer will be incredibly overwhelmed with those type of situations because they are rare. I would say 2-3% of officers are actually prepared to face a that type of violence properly.

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11 hours ago, V. Green said:

I'll be honest I haven't seen much about it so I went and looked at it just now. 

Using the 3rd party vehicles for cover is not okay in my mind. We are trained on a topic we call "priority of life". #1 is always innocent people or unwilling participants, they do not have the option to uninvolved themselves. That could be a hostage or bystander. Decisions being made by the police on scene should always be towards protecting the life of those people. #2 is officers on scene, they are what I call a willing participant. At any time they can lay down their gun and badge and say F this. #3 is the bad guy or suspect, he is also a willing participant, he can peacefully surrender at any time and he will be safe. 

So using that criteria the officers using the bystanders vehicle would not fit at all. 

The sad reality is that if bad guys go on a shooting spree and are not contained in a limited area the chances of no innocent people being harmed by either the bad guy or the police is very low.  The average officer will be incredibly overwhelmed with those type of situations because they are rare. I would say 2-3% of officers are actually prepared to face a that type of violence properly.

I fully agree with that if the bystander vehicles are occupied by bystanders.  But if they are empty parked cars on the street or parking lot, I see nothing wrong.  I can't imagine in a dynamic gunfight that it stays 100% static with your staying behind your patrol truck while the gunman moves or runs.  You need to be able to shoot and move as necessary taking cover behind whatever presents itself.  I cannot imagine you would endanger yourself worrying about private property getting shot up. 

But again, totally agree that protecting innocent lives is paramount.  

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8 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

But again, totally agree that protecting innocent lives is paramount.  

So says the drone warrior.

image.png.f927970c11697d8e355dc715a5a6268d.png

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I fully agree with that if the bystander vehicles are occupied by bystanders.  But if they are empty parked cars on the street or parking lot, I see nothing wrong.  I can't imagine in a dynamic gunfight that it stays 100% static with your staying behind your patrol truck while the gunman moves or runs.  You need to be able to shoot and move as necessary taking cover behind whatever presents itself.  I cannot imagine you would endanger yourself worrying about private property getting shot up. 

But again, totally agree that protecting innocent lives is paramount.  

Of course, if a car is empty I fully plan to utilize it as cover. Property falls really low on the priority list. My life and the life of other officers is only second to the life of innocent bystanders.

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11 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Thanks for that

Don't thank me, I enjoy my job. I have a few moments in my time as a police officer that stand out in my mind. Every one of them is a moment when my actions saved someone else. Some of them are minor while some are not.  Someday, once legal teams get done battling I will be able to speak on one particular incident. 

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18 hours ago, V. Green said:

Of course, if a car is empty I fully plan to utilize it as cover. Property falls really low on the priority list. My life and the life of other officers is only second to the life of innocent bystanders.

If you use a citizen's car for cover and the car is destroyed as a result, is that an example of the public taking the car in a way that should be compensated or is it just tough luck for the car owner who must solely bear the cost of public safety in that case?

How about if it's a home instead of a car?

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6 hours ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

If you use a citizen's car for cover and the car is destroyed as a result, is that an example of the public taking the car in a way that should be compensated or is it just tough luck for the car owner who must solely bear the cost of public safety in that case?

How about if it's a home instead of a car?

So I don't know how it works everywhere, but many places have a victims compensation fund. A portion of the fees paid by any criminal go towards it and it is held to reimburse those who have financial burdens due to the actions of criminals.

I observed it get used when our tactical unit was called out to a house where a burglar had broken in and when the patrol officers arrived he barricaded the door and picked up a deer rifle he found in the home and fired off a few rounds. The tactical unit showed up and after 6 hours were able to take the subject into custody with minimal injury. Unfortunately the suspect plugged every drain he could and turned on every faucet he could inside causing a lot of damage. I spoke to the home owner later and they received close to 30k for repairs to their home from the water damage. They stated it was a complicated process to get reimbursed but the county had someone who helped them the entire way.

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41 minutes ago, V. Green said:

So I don't know how it works everywhere, but many places have a victims compensation fund. A portion of the fees paid by any criminal go towards it and it is held to reimburse those who have financial burdens due to the actions of criminals.

I observed it get used when our tactical unit was called out to a house where a burglar had broken in and when the patrol officers arrived he barricaded the door and picked up a deer rifle he found in the home and fired off a few rounds. The tactical unit showed up and after 6 hours were able to take the subject into custody with minimal injury. Unfortunately the suspect plugged every drain he could and turned on every faucet he could inside causing a lot of damage. I spoke to the home owner later and they received close to 30k for repairs to their home from the water damage. They stated it was a complicated process to get reimbursed but the county had someone who helped them the entire way.

what a fucking *unt!  lets see, not are you a low life burglar that causes people grief should you steal there shit but when it looks like the jig is up for you you go out of your way to cause these unsuspecting people maximum grief anyway! JFC!

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7 hours ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

If you use a citizen's car for cover and the car is destroyed as a result, is that an example of the public taking the car in a way that should be compensated or is it just tough luck for the car owner who must solely bear the cost of public safety in that case?

How about if it's a home instead of a car?

Why are you asking about something that is well-established law?

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18 minutes ago, chester said:

what a fucking *unt!  lets see, not are you a low life burglar that causes people grief should you steal there shit but when it looks like the jig is up for you you go out of your way to cause these unsuspecting people maximum grief anyway! JFC!

He was getting some very unpleasant gas pumped into the house and was using a combination of submerging himself in bathtubs and coating himself in vegetable oil to combat the unpleasant effects.  He had a real rough day overall that included some bean bag rounds, some 40mm less lethal impact weapons rounds, and all the gas we could put into that house. We did everything we could to not shoot him and he did everything he could to get shot. He pointed the hunting rifle at our armored vehicle man times, we responded with less lethal every time until finally the 40mm round caused the rifle to be dropped outside the window of the house. We ended up going in and taking him into custody later.

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11 minutes ago, chester said:

what a fucking *unt!  lets see, not are you a low life burglar that causes people grief should you steal there shit but when it looks like the jig is up for you you go out of your way to cause these unsuspecting people maximum grief anyway! JFC!

The primary sign of a sociopath or psychopath is a complete lack of empathy for their fellow humans.  That's how they can do the things they do.  Us 'normal' humans generally feel bad when we hurt somebody for any reason, be it physically or emotionally, intentionally or unintentionally.

There is some debate whether sociopaths are born that way or they were created through some severe childhood trauma.  Some say that psychopaths are born that way, sociopaths are created.  Others disagree or say both are possible.  Many psychological studies and discussions have occurred in the areas of moral disengagement, dehumanization, euphemistic labeling, displacement and diffusion of responsibility, etc., which relate to sociopathy and psychopathy.   Like many things concerning human behavior, concrete answers are hard to come by.  

Empathy and opposing thumbs are what set us apart from most other animals.  It's a powerful combination!   

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10 minutes ago, V. Green said:

He was getting some very unpleasant gas pumped into the house and was using a combination of submerging himself in bathtubs and coating himself in vegetable oil to combat the unpleasant effects.  He had a real rough day overall that included some bean bag rounds, some 40mm less lethal impact weapons rounds, and all the gas we could put into that house. We did everything we could to not shoot him and he did everything he could to get shot. He pointed the hunting rifle at our armored vehicle man times, we responded with less lethal every time until finally the 40mm round caused the rifle to be dropped outside the window of the house. We ended up going in and taking him into custody later.

Hats off to you and your elk* Vernon. 

In my time that I worked in mental health I had to deal with some very ugly behaviors but I was always on the back end, the stuff had already happened usually.  I dealt with the perpetrators and the victims afterward.  It left some serious scars on my psyche.  To deal with the events as they occur, day after day is certainly draining, and to do it for an entire career is remarkable. 

Take care of yourself Vernon.  I'm sure you know the hidden hazards of your job all too well.

 

* Elk (ilk) is an SA thing in case you aren't aware.

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Appreciate the concern, sadly I just got to witness how this job can affect someone. A good friend and training partner of mine who specialized in the medical side of the tactical community here in Oklahoma took his own life about a week ago. I had taught a two week course with him in November and had no idea anything was wrong. 

 

That's the third person I knew in this field who took their own life. The sad reality is mental health isn't talked about much in the field. We are all expected to be tough guys and just deal with it.

 

I have my outlets and make sure I keep an eye on how I feel. My wife is a huge part of that also. 

What most people fail to realize is the crazy stuff isn't what gets to most of us. That guy at the house never crosses my mind. The ones that get you are your failures.

https://kfor.com/2014/06/13/police-investigating-early-morning-murder-in-northwest-oklahoma-city/

 

I stopped that guy earlier in the day before he murdered that woman. He didn't have a license so I let him call a ride rather than arrest him. Those are the things that eat you up.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, V. Green said:

 

That guy at the house never crosses my mind. The ones that get you are your failures.

https://kfor.com/2014/06/13/police-investigating-early-morning-murder-in-northwest-oklahoma-city/

 

I stopped that guy earlier in the day before he murdered that woman. He didn't have a license so I let him call a ride rather than arrest him. Those are the things that eat you up.

  

 

he dead.  couple weeks ago.  I hope he suffered.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/death-row-inmate-dies-in-oklahoma-state-penitentiary

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