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When to go out, When to stay in


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I'm sure there are short responses to this such as "if you have to ask, stay in" and "depends on your skill".  However I'd still like some feedback.

Here is my example. On Lake Michigan at South Haven (in case anybody knows it) this Sunday they are calling for 15-18 kts winds from the west, with 4.5 ft swells about 6 seconds apart also from the west.

The wind is quite manageable. I'd probably have a reef in the main. However, I have never sailed in a 4.5 ft swell. The highest has been 3.5 ft. The good news about the swell is they are 6 seconds apart so they aren't crashing.

The channel entering Lake Michigan will face directly into the wind and waves and shore line runs directly north and south. So the natural course will be close hauled to port or starboard as we decide.  Then the ride back would be a series of broad reaches back to the opening. Those would have the swells following on the aft quarter, then would need to be mindful of a broach.

The boat in question is a 28' cruising boat. My experience is growing up sailing on the larger rivers of the Chesapeake and the Bay itself, sailing a 23 ft wood boat until I was 20. After a 33 year hiatus,  I bought this boat on the first weekend of August. I estimate I have 60-75 hrs sailing time on it. The "largest" conditions I've had her out in is 20 kts and a 3.5 swell. Same wind condition. I usually have at least one crew member.

I'm not necessarily asking for you to say "stay in" or "go out". I am asking about learning to gauge conditions and factors in making these choices.

This season we are day sailors, next season we are going to be cruisers. More learning is better. Next June we are going to an ASA sailing school to keep learning.

 

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you go out. Do what you said you were going to do - put in the reef. Keep the boat under control. You'll know within an hour if you made a good decision, and if you didn't, you go in and try again another time. The only way to know how your new-to-you boat is going to perform is to go out and try it.

Also, make sure you manage your seasickness early so that you don't have to try to when those swells are moving you around and nothing feels comfortable.

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^^^ this.  You will never become experienced until you gain experience. Sounds tautological I know. But go with someone for whom these conditions are routine until you gain some  miles of your own.

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South Haven has a nice inlet as I recall, I started and ended there a couple years ago.   You can walk down and make sure the waves at the inlet itself don't look too freaky before you go to your boat if its on the river.   IMO the other questions are how many shifts / gusts there are, and if you are going to be beating to get somewhere, or just reaching for fun.  I'm good in 3' in a tailorable 22 foot, 4' is pushing the pucker factor for me.  (heavy reef, near the marina, daylight, jacket and tether)  The water is still warm at least.

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South Haven's pier goes out about 300 yards and is about 70 yards wide. With a west wind that will be the worst of the roller coaster. The swells pile right in there.

We aren't going anywhere, just a fun trip out and back. Sweater and windbreaker trip....though if i have time I may put the dodger up to reduce the spray.

I have discovered how much I miss a tiller. Its so much easier to feel the boat as the quartering waves start to point the boat up.

 

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It's hard for me to imagine being able to tell the difference between a 3.5 and 4.5 swell from the cockpit of a sailboat.  3.5 ( about my waist)  and 6 ft ( my full height) yes, I can tell. But one foot? Don't let numbers get in your way.  Some of the worst sailing I've ever done is upwind in San Pablo Bay returning from the Delta.  2 ft chop in those shallow waters will knock your fillings out and make it feel like the boat is going to split apart.  Are these breaking waves or rolling swells?   Are you able to sail/motor/motor-sail past the inlet.  Systems in good shape?  In the end, it's your boat; you are the owner and skipper. Don't get guilted into doing something you're not sure about. Like others, I'd recommend taking an experienced friend- as long as they aren't the type to call you sissy-boy if you feel  uncomfortable.  Make sure the parameters are clear: you want to gain experience but also want to have a fun day and when it stops being fun you'll stop doing it.  My other recommendation is to get some crewing time on boats belonging to others whom you trust to handle heavier weather than you're used to.  Watch, learn, and soon you'll find out that you're capable of pushing your boundaries a bit more.  At that point, it all goes back to the fun factor.

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1 hour ago, Hawaiidart said:

Some of the worst sailing I've ever done is upwind in San Pablo Bay returning from the Delta.  2 ft chop in those shallow waters will knock your fillings out and make it feel like the boat is going to split apart.  

Truer words have never been spoken.  Those late afternoon return trips in San Pablo Bay always seem to be 40% exciting and 60% hate mission.  I changed my mind, 25% fun, 75% hate mission.  But regarding the point you're making I agree, 4ft swell, 15-20 knot winds on Lake Michigan kicks up very different 4ft swell than you would see in the open ocean.

The OP should definitely go for it but think through different scenarios if things get too difficult and have an escape plan before you head out.  You'll never know what you can do until you push it a little and as long as you do it sensibly and safely you'll learn a lot even if you turn back early.  Don't be afraid to bail if it just doesn't feel right.  Like the old Thomas Edison quote about inventing the light bulb "I have not failed 10,000 times, I've successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work".

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1 hour ago, Psycho Tiller said:

Truer words have never been spoken.  Those late afternoon return trips in San Pablo Bay always seem to be 40% exciting and 60% hate mission.  I changed my mind, 25% fun, 75% hate mission.  But regarding the point you're making I agree, 4ft swell, 15-20 knot winds on Lake Michigan kicks up very different 4ft swell than you would see in the open ocean.

The OP should definitely go for it but think through different scenarios if things get too difficult and have an escape plan before you head out.  You'll never know what you can do until you push it a little and as long as you do it sensibly and safely you'll learn a lot even if you turn back early.  Don't be afraid to bail if it just doesn't feel right.  Like the old Thomas Edison quote about inventing the light bulb "I have not failed 10,000 times, I've successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work".

The worst part of SP Bay is that your great vacation in the Delta is over; you have to go to work for the next fifty weeks; you're in boots, foulies and long underwear; you're bashing and smashing upwind, and the guy going downwind to start his Delta Days is in swim trunks and a t shirt, holding a beer, waving hello and with a big grin on his face.  Ten days earlier, you were wondering why everyone was giving you the finger when you were headed up river.

Now, back to our originally scheduled programming: I rememberer what a  buddy said about heavy weather (which isn't what the OP is describing) when I started racing decades ago. It was a blustery, cold, raining sideways type of winter day in SF and his comment was, "No part of our anatomy is going to get smaller we if we decide not to go."  

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45 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

The short, steep chop on Lake Michigan will rattle your fillings loose.

We came across the Strait of Georgia a couple of weeks ago, from Merry Island to Silva Bay, the reported swell was 2 feet, but it was a 3-second period. Every minute or so, a triple of four-footers would run through and then it was ugly.

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Before you go out text the weather buoy (text 45168 to 734.418.7299). It's 2 miles due west of the SH channel. That will give you up to date info. Wave intervals is especially important on Lake Michigan. You'll find the channel will be the worst part of the trip.  Waves tend to build up in the channel.  Just be careful out there. (I'ld be right with you on Legacy if I was in town.)

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10 hours ago, silversailor said:

Before you go out text the weather buoy (text 45168 to 734.418.7299). It's 2 miles due west of the SH channel. That will give you up to date info. Wave intervals is especially important on Lake Michigan. You'll find the channel will be the worst part of the trip.  Waves tend to build up in the channel.  Just be careful out there. (I'ld be right with you on Legacy if I was in town.)

We will definitely go out tomorrow. I suppose my post was about learning to have an honest self assessment of one's skills. There are so many stories that end with "that guy shouldn't have been out there, he didn't have enough experience".  Plus we live 2 hrs from the boat so I don't want to drive down, walk to the pier and say screw it and turn around.

We have been out on a lovely blue diamond day with a 13-15 kt wind but with 2.5 ft waves 3 seconds apart that were snapping off white...that started rattling our fillings. That was the Missus first experience with that kind of weather. It did not make her happy. We tucked in and headed home.  

The channel is a little dramatic. We took friends out 2 weekends ago who were non-sailors. Their eyes got pretty wide.  Even the Friends Good Will showed a lot of bottom paint as it worked through the swell. Friends Good Will

Silversailor, I think that buoy is the coolest little thing. We sail by it frequently. We keep our boat down the river at River Noir, do you sail out of South Haven as well?

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The confidence to think about the question, and request the inputs suggests that the decision (which ever way) would be prudent. 

I'd be far more concerned about someone who didn't reflect on the incremental conditions. 

We had a memorable run from Halifax down East to St. Peters on Cape Breton Island about 15 yrs back.

We had holed up in the NW arm for a day as there was a storm with winds > 20 kts and we had never seen Halifax, we had been on a 3 day passage from NH so an extra day at RNSYS was easily in order. Forecast for the day we left was 15-20 kts & 2m seas, and that's not a big deal for us.  I don't remember the period but it wasn't off putting. So we put out, motored down the harbor and set off under reef and genoa on a reaching course about 1/2 mile off shore to be outside all of the "named rocks"

What we didn't expect was that the 2m seas were coming from 3 different directions, and every now and then superposition applied and you got a 5-6 meter pyramid.

The first time I looked up and saw water near the height of the spreader was a "religious" moment, but Lioness rose gracefully up and descended down and didn't even take water aboard. One crew was violently ill, the other was in a berth reading and we just drove at hull speed for the better part of 12 hrs until the wind dropped a bit around dark. We left the reef in overnight and I think I went off watch at about 8 AM and crashed for a few hours as we were clear of Cape Canso into Chedebucto Bay. 

Lessons learned:

  • the forecast does not tell you everything
  • Your vessel is probably a lot more capable than you are 
  • You can possibly rise to the occasion and stand a much longer watch than planned, but you need zero preparation foods and beverages or a jetboil that works in heavy seas. 
  • Reefing early and leaving in overnight were prudent decisions, and removed the necessity of leaving the cockpit
  • Having your harness secured to a jack line or belay point that reaches the cockpit is very comforting
  • More severe motion will cause motion sickness even in those who were not previously susceptible
  • You can pee in the cockpit if you need to and can't leave the wheel, (that's what the drains are for.)
  • Having a working autopilot is priceless 
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Aussies

 

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On 10/5/2019 at 2:11 AM, Tmacmi said:

I'm sure there are short responses to this such as "if you have to ask, stay in" and "depends on your skill".  However I'd still like some feedback.

Here is my example. On Lake Michigan at South Haven (in case anybody knows it) this Sunday they are calling for 15-18 kts winds from the west, with 4.5 ft swells about 6 seconds apart also from the west.

The wind is quite manageable. I'd probably have a reef in the main. However, I have never sailed in a 4.5 ft swell. The highest has been 3.5 ft. The good news about the swell is they are 6 seconds apart so they aren't crashing.

The channel entering Lake Michigan will face directly into the wind and waves and shore line runs directly north and south. So the natural course will be close hauled to port or starboard as we decide.  Then the ride back would be a series of broad reaches back to the opening. Those would have the swells following on the aft quarter, then would need to be mindful of a broach.

The boat in question is a 28' cruising boat. My experience is growing up sailing on the larger rivers of the Chesapeake and the Bay itself, sailing a 23 ft wood boat until I was 20. After a 33 year hiatus,  I bought this boat on the first weekend of August. I estimate I have 60-75 hrs sailing time on it. The "largest" conditions I've had her out in is 20 kts and a 3.5 swell. Same wind condition. I usually have at least one crew member.

I'm not necessarily asking for you to say "stay in" or "go out". I am asking about learning to gauge conditions and factors in making these choices.

This season we are day sailors, next season we are going to be cruisers. More learning is better. Next June we are going to an ASA sailing school to keep learning.

 

Simple question!

If you are talking about bar crossings

How big is the engine and how big is the prop.

28 footer with a three cylinder 30 hp is very different from a one cylinder 10 hp.

Also where is the fuel tank and how deep is it.

Do you have an in line electric fuel pump as well.

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On 10/4/2019 at 6:34 PM, Ishmael said:

We came across the Strait of Georgia a couple of weeks ago, from Merry Island to Silva Bay, the reported swell was 2 feet, but it was a 3-second period. Every minute or so, a triple of four-footers would run through and then it was ugly.

We call that “summer.”

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Reef in if prudent,  PFD's on and go. If you dont go sail around in that shit, your gone cruising and the half way point between where you are and where you want to be turns ugly, you need to know how the boat works, what to do and most important what does not work. You need to go sail. 

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18 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

 

What we didn't expect was that the 2m seas were coming from 3 different directions, and every now and then superposition applied and you got a 5-6 meter pyramid.

Reminds me of the "toilet bowl". We were crossing the Gulf Stream right after heavy air from the south had switched around to 50 from the north and then died. We were motoring in no wind and in short order the cockpit was drenched with breaking waves from aft, port, and starboard :o

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7 hours ago, lydia said:

Simple question!

If you are talking about bar crossings

How big is the engine and how big is the prop.

28 footer with a three cylinder 30 hp is very different from a one cylinder 10 hp.

Also where is the fuel tank and how deep is it.

Do you have an in line electric fuel pump as well.

Not so sure, just don't cross bars in dodgy conditions. If you loose it, within 30 seconds you are on the dry hammered by big waves!

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Something I’d be thinking about on a day like that is my fuel filtration.

With a good pounding, all sorts of crap gets liberated from tank walls & threaten to starve your most important means of self rescue from a bad situation. Is the fuel system of your pretty-new-to-you robust enough to withstand this torture test?

The other question is the ground tackle. Can you drop a good anchor & a bunch of chain in a hurry and reliably take enormous strain for a few hours?

If yesses to both, then consider a reef and go! You’ve prepared well for this day.

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We had a good day of it! We took a long close reach out with the swells on the port quarter.  Ran down a little closer to shore parallel the shore and the beat back was a little time consuming, but overall just fine.

Thoughts about fuel filtration and pump. The short answer is I don't know. Its a Yanmar diesel with three blades. The tank is in the centerline under the cockpit.  The fuel filters were reportedly changed by the yard at the beginning of the season.

We have a danforth and a rode that can provide lots of scope and should hold. I wouldn't really want to try that, thought it through as a back up.

Fortunately, once you get out from between the piers there are no shoals to handle unless you get within a couple hundred yards of shore.  Working between the piers is a little exciting.  Coming in with a following seas that get piled in, slewing the stern all over the place kept me on my toes. The piers are about 200" apart but it feels a lot less than that. I'm very glad I didn't have to share with an outbound vessel.

South Haven Channel

The only major issues we faced were raising and lowering the sails from the top of the cabin. That's a fairly miserable job. Particularly without a self tailing winch for the way up.  That leaves you with no hands for the boat.  I'm going to try a Barton Marine conversion for next season

Dropping and organizing the sails is simply a bitch. All tips accepted. Here's the form we adopt. Pitch seat cushions in cabin. Helmsman points into wind. Loosen main sheet and vang. Pull up topping lift. Re-tighten main sheet and vang.  Foredeck man drops sails far enough to make sense of tying down the rear third of the sail to the boom, he comes aft and ties down as best as possible balancing on top of two seats and holding on to a swaying boom. Back on deck, rinse repeat, until sail is down in however an ugly but relatively bundle on the boom as can be done.

All in all, a good trip. The boat handled fine. The waves were about eye level as I was sitting at the helm. She rode them well, no slamming as she cut through. I could have put in a second reef, but the boat never put its rail in the water.

I'll post some photos a little later.

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On 10/4/2019 at 9:11 AM, Tmacmi said:

The good news about the swell is they are 6 seconds apart so they aren't crashing.

I don't know about Lake Michigan but six seconds is a short period on the Oregon coast, and maybe much of the Pacific with direct exposure to its vast fetch.

This is the Coquille River yesterday, ~100 miles south of Newport, Oregon. For scale, there are people on the north jetty.  According to Windy.com at the time, waves were 5.5 feet at 9 secs.

Coquille_jetty_2019Oct6a.thumb.jpg.591ef967983d4579464503cee2080ac0.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Tmacmi said:

We had a good day of it! We took a long close reach out with the swells on the port quarter.  Ran down a little closer to shore parallel the shore and the beat back was a little time consuming, but overall just fine.

Thoughts about fuel filtration and pump. The short answer is I don't know. Its a Yanmar diesel with three blades. The tank is in the centerline under the cockpit.  The fuel filters were reportedly changed by the yard at the beginning of the season.

We have a danforth and a rode that can provide lots of scope and should hold. I wouldn't really want to try that, thought it through as a back up.

Fortunately, once you get out from between the piers there are no shoals to handle unless you get within a couple hundred yards of shore.  Working between the piers is a little exciting.  Coming in with a following seas that get piled in, slewing the stern all over the place kept me on my toes. The piers are about 200" apart but it feels a lot less than that. I'm very glad I didn't have to share with an outbound vessel.

South Haven Channel

The only major issues we faced were raising and lowering the sails from the top of the cabin. That's a fairly miserable job. Particularly without a self tailing winch for the way up.  That leaves you with no hands for the boat.  I'm going to try a Barton Marine conversion for next season

Dropping and organizing the sails is simply a bitch. All tips accepted. Here's the form we adopt. Pitch seat cushions in cabin. Helmsman points into wind. Loosen main sheet and vang. Pull up topping lift. Re-tighten main sheet and vang.  Foredeck man drops sails far enough to make sense of tying down the rear third of the sail to the boom, he comes aft and ties down as best as possible balancing on top of two seats and holding on to a swaying boom. Back on deck, rinse repeat, until sail is down in however an ugly but relatively bundle on the boom as can be done.

All in all, a good trip. The boat handled fine. The waves were about eye level as I was sitting at the helm. She rode them well, no slamming as she cut through. I could have put in a second reef, but the boat never put its rail in the water.

I'll post some photos a little later.

I've sailed in and out of South Haven.

When it comes to taking sails down, do it in front of the municipal marina after you come in.  Same for the departure, put them up in the flat water of the river, not out in the mess just off the piers.   

Thos piers do look a lot closer together from the deck of a sailboat in some waves.

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14 hours ago, lydia said:

Simple question!

If you are talking about bar crossings

How big is the engine and how big is the prop.

28 footer with a three cylinder 30 hp is very different from a one cylinder 10 hp.

Also where is the fuel tank and how deep is it.

Do you have an in line electric fuel pump as well.

And then there's the reality that the surging of fuel, may well shake loose the bio sludge in the tank, and on the walls and top and foul your filters at an inopportune time. We exited the Cape Cod Canal through the standing waves in Buzzards Bay (wind against the tide) and a day later lost power just AFTER Woods Hole coming into Burr Brothers under sail was not as exciting as transiting the Hole would have been, but it was more effort than I had desired. 

 

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2 hours ago, From the Helm said:

I've sailed in and out of South Haven.

When it comes to taking sails down, do it in front of the municipal marina after you come in.  Same for the departure, put them up in the flat water of the river, not out in the mess just off the piers.   

Thos piers do look a lot closer together from the deck of a sailboat in some waves.

I've seen a few people raise and lower their sails there. My concern (fear) is that the way the rollers come down that channel and cause my stern to slew around I could catch wind and be driven either to the pier or on coming traffic.

Yesterday I was working the helm a solid 45 degrees to offset the swell from abaft.

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On 10/4/2019 at 6:51 PM, Hawaiidart said:

"No part of our anatomy is going to get smaller we if we decide not to go."

Let me guess..  He had a pipe, beard and was the guy u trusted most on the boat........  Love those guys...

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16 hours ago, lydia said:

Simple question!

If you are talking about bar crossings

How big is the engine and how big is the prop.

28 footer with a three cylinder 30 hp is very different from a one cylinder 10 hp.

Also where is the fuel tank and how deep is it.

Do you have an in line electric fuel pump as well.

UMMM  bar crossing???  Lake Michigan??  :rolleyes:  Used to love taking the whaler out in waukegan in a big northerly...  B)

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18 hours ago, Tmacmi said:

I've seen a few people raise and lower their sails there. My concern (fear) is that the way the rollers come down that channel and cause my stern to slew around I could catch wind and be driven either to the pier or on coming traffic.

Yesterday I was working the helm a solid 45 degrees to offset the swell from abaft.

With the wind from due west you may have a little issue with jibing accidently, but any N or S and it's way better to have the steadying effect of the sail.  Also without a sail up you are SOL if the motor quits, but just fine if under sail.   Taking the main down with waves rolling your boat rail to rail sucks, it's dangerous, and you can easily break something or someone if the main sheet un-cleats or topping lift breaks.   Sailing into South Haven with our old fat ass under-keeled Endeavour 38 was always better than motoring in, way harder for the wave to spin your stern with a full main.

There is no "bar" to cross, but there is a shoal at most piers unless just dredged, plus there's wave bounce from the pier and slight current from the black river.   You'll always find the steepest waves from pierheads into the waves for 1/4-1/2 mile.   Going out:  Favor the side closest to the wind and allow your boat to close reach out away from the breaking waves.   

Coming in:  Set up to windward of the entrance enough to keep the waves aft and beam reach or deeper into the piers.   If it's really rough I'll set up 1/2 mile out aimed as close to due East and get to "know" how the waves are going to effect the boat before it's decision time.   Don't come in from N or S and turn right at the piers that will put you in a new trim and angle right where the waves are peak height and breaking.   

Don't go slow:   Your rudder works best when the water is flowing across it, I don't know your boat, but almost all the boats I've sailed like to go fast for best steering and to reduce the impact of the waves from astern.

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If I can't row to the mooring, impossible wind and huge waves, I don't sail, it's a pretty good sign.  You gotta look for the 'signs'.  Is all the litter is stuck to the chain -link fence? Don't go out etc... depending on where you are. If I am already sailing in similar weather I usually learn a lot -if things don't start to breaking.  I try not to go out over 25 mph gusts..but sometimes its tempting...things always break in the big wind.Sometime very bad things happen like a sail gets caught and torn. ..or BOTH sails tear ( that was just stupid : the day before Sandy hit we moved the boat, should've done it the day before THAT ) I don't have a reefable main sail, but am thinking of having one built out of an old 'work-horse ' sail I have laying around.

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That looks a little sporty. I would definitely want the main up while motoring out through that.  If the engine quits, you can always tack your way out (it appears the wind is coming straight in). Failing that, you could turn around and sail in.  I would not want to be there with no motor and no sails. If your roller furling is reliable, you could pull the jib out quick and head back in, but tacking out could be difficult, depending on your boat's peculiarities.

But good job on pushing your limits a little further.  It looks like it was a great day once you could get away from shore.

Everyone talks about the "piers". I see two jetties. Is pier a Michigan term for what we call a jetty on the west coast?

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On 10/8/2019 at 3:59 PM, Shu said:

Everyone talks about the "piers". I see two jetties. Is pier a Michigan term for what we call a jetty on the west coast?

At every river mouth along the West Coast of Michigan they are called piers. I suspect its because they were pile and wood piers out to the lighthouses at the turn of the 19th century. They've since become concrete and they've forgotten to rename them appropriately. 

Here's another full view of the pier....errrr...jetty

South Haven perjetty

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Legacy is docked just north of the Dykeman Bridge. Typically, I exit through the bridge and after I pass the first bend (between Capt Lou's and Admiral Jack's) I raise my main and then motor down the river into the channel and out to the Lake. Coming in, we generally furl our genoa before entering the channel and then motor sail up the channel until the first bend at the end of the pier. Once we pass the clock, on most days we can drop our main with no problem.  Occasionally we need to go deeper (to the southside Muni Marina) and occasionally we need to turn back (towards the mouth of the channel) to face into the wind.  Sounds like you would benefit from adding lazy jacks to contain tour main as it drops. Looks like sailing is done for us for the season.  Crappy weather today and forecast through the weekend.  We haul on Monday.

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On 10/5/2019 at 11:39 AM, JimBowie said:

Stay home!  Stay safe!  Live to sail another day!  Better to sit safely at home pounding away on SA forums than experience the pounding of the surf under your keel and wind messing up your wife's hairdoo!  Think about it man!!

purple

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  • 2 weeks later...

My views have morphed somewhat as I've aged, seen/experienced more ugly shit, and become a little less able to muscle things into compliance. Nowadays I try to keep in mind that "what's safe" is a three-legged stool - crew, boat & weather. What's safe in very sporty conditions for a well found boat with a young, experienced crew, can easily be a disaster for a an older couple with thin experience and a poorly designed/prepared/maintained boat. Anyway, IMHO it's certainly a good idea to push the envelope a little and gradually get more experience in the dirty stuff, because there are no videos, books, simulators, etc., that can prepare you for what it's really like, or the pressure of having to make quick, good decisions in a topsy-turvey boat while massive loads of adrenalin are coursing through your bloodstream. I can recall flashing on the scene in "Rosemary's Baby" where the devil is having his way with Mia Farrow, and suddenly her eyes get big as saucers and she cries out, "This is real!"

Also, sometimes you squeak through a rough encounter primarily due to a lucky break or two, but you may come away with a false confidence that you and the boat are tough as nails, and ready for anything - and that can bite you downstream. Sometimes the boat may let you down, sometimes crew, unfortunately sometimes both - nothing like having a friend go catatonic when something lets go in some snotty stuff. It is also wonderful experience to tie up at a calm dock after a good bouncing... your face may hurt from all the smiling! 

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