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Former ericsson4/groupama70 VO70 now with foils


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2 hours ago, jb5 said:

That's an old boat to have that sort of investment. You would think there would be better candidates. 

They’re an easily driven, full carbon hull with a high sail area to displacement ratio, canting keel and can achieve speeds in the 30’s in standard trim. It’s an excellent donor hull.

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2 hours ago, ExOmo said:

just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should...

It’s a wicked idea and I hope it works, but for my money a decent powered winch package would have been money better spent.

 

Having to fill the handles for every sail change or gybe is the stuff of nightmares.

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Am I seeing this correctly? The port foil is inserted from the starboard side? These look a lot closer to dss than Dali type foils? They are also aft of the keel? The original straight foils have been retained?

 

Going to be a fucking nightmare to setup with four foils and a swing keel to play with!

 

 

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12 hours ago, Jason AUS said:

They’re an easily driven, full carbon hull with a high sail area to displacement ratio, canting keel and can achieve speeds in the 30’s in standard trim. It’s an excellent donor hull.

a few have seen bursts to 45 knots boat speed, baddest fkn' monohulls that ever floated. period.

 

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10 hours ago, ExOmo said:

just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should...

Hang on, so your line of thinking is to do nothing to raise the performance envelope of these boats and instead do what.......? 

Wizard has shown how competitive a platform this class can be - giving supermaxis a run for their money - I suspect on an order of magnitude of lower cost.

Re-cycling, re-purposing or whatever, is to be encouraged in our otherwise shoddy record of one time plastic production that has a shelf life of 3-5 years before the decay and slide toward mooring minder begins.....

If this re-invigorates this class of boat then I think it should be applauded and supported. If it supports a few boatbuilders and pro sailors - even better.

Just because you can say anything on here, doesn't mean you should.......

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seriously long foils! but have the advantage that the bearings are a long way apart so the loads are spread more.

Initially I was wondering why go down this route of curved and up through the deck. But with a purpose built DSS boat the design is set up to sail flat from day one. The VO70 hulls were designed to sail heeled all the time. So this might work better, and unlike the IMOCA solutions, this can be fully retracted wen not required. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

I also agree, good to see a VO70 getting treated to new toys!

 

That looks like Valencia in the first photo.

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5 minutes ago, The Dark Knight said:

I still think its a shame that the VO70's never got to evolve over more VOR's

Can't agree with you more!

I always hoped that they would evolve into a more healthy area. But unfortunately it seems that the push from the designers to get ever lighter, and the lack of force from the organisers (if only they had said that you can't win if you don't finish every leg) meant they ended heading in the wrong direction for the race in my view.

I also wonder what would have happened if the rule had been written without concern about foil costs. DSS was considered back then and thought to potentially drive research costs up, so both lateral foils and elevators were banned. Imagine where that could have led back in 2003-4 when the rule was first written.

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Instead of going to the OD VO65 to save costs, they could have kept VO70 and introduced OD rigs, OD canting mechanisms, sails and a minimum hull weight.

That would give designers the opportunity to try new things with the hull and foil shapes, whilst helping the durability and serviceability of the boats. To keep sail makers interested you could specify a set of OD sails with the addition of 1 or 2 sails that can be of custom designs.  

Just imagine the ocean racing fleets with the injection of newer retired VO70's.

 

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10 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Can't agree with you more!

I always hoped that they would evolve into a more healthy area. But unfortunately it seems that the push from the designers to get ever lighter, and the lack of force from the organisers (if only they had said that you can't win if you don't finish every leg) meant they ended heading in the wrong direction for the race in my view.

I also wonder what would have happened if the rule had been written without concern about foil costs. DSS was considered back then and thought to potentially drive research costs up, so both lateral foils and elevators were banned. Imagine where that could have led back in 2003-4 when the rule was first written.

So much to be learnt from the Imoca class and gentle rule transitions.. and they didn’t. 

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30 minutes ago, Timmy Time said:

You don’t have to imagine. Fastnet overall win, Hobart overall win and Giovanni Soldini had one.

More thinking the increased numbers, perhaps double, competing in the races. 

Keen owners of "current" boats could have fit them with IRC optimised rigs for the "off years"

Alas, we'll never know thanks to the VOR/OR decisions of the past and present.

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10 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Keen owners of "current" boats could have fit them with IRC optimised rigs for the "off years"

I’m not sure I’d want to go there. On our VO70 the rule was to FILL the runner winch drum, grind until you couldn’t then find a buddy and grind some more. Plus 2x safety wraps as the shock loads on waves will overcome the self tailer.

 

We talked about going taller on the rig (I think the BlackJack guys in Oz did that?) but if you started taking spreaders out to optimise the rating even with a redesigned tube it’d scare seven kinds of shit out of me.

 

The combined platform is cool, and pretty solid. It’s designed for 10 or 12 guys to blast around the planet at insane speeds, dodging icebergs and doing dumb shit. And when you lay it down, knowing that the rig did that in big, cold seas and lived gives you some comfort. Every time our navigator started banging on about sail changes according to the matrix we had to remind him that the crossover charts were designed around guys with 3% body fat... and most of us ran with 33% body fat. On a good day.

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Agree with you there Timmy. The 70s are a nicely balanced boat when it comes to rig configuration against RM. The foil solution on E4/Groupama/whatever is interesting as it looks to be set up to produce lift like a DSS, so reduce displacement and increase RM. So I would suspect that they would reduce keel cant when hard pressed to keep the rig in the boat. That might mean that they end up not needing the daggerboards and the weight and drag of them ends up removed.

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Just to be clear, this is the old Ericsson 4 (2.5 generation VO70), while Groupama 4 is out winning races as Wizard, with a turbo rig I believe. Most of the aussie boats had turbo'd rigs.

Still a neat project and a good donor boat, she was one of the fastest monohulls ever built, hopefully the foil mods didn't slow her down any!

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2 hours ago, Timmy Time said:

I’m not sure I’d want to go there. On our VO70 the rule was to FILL the runner winch drum, grind until you couldn’t then find a buddy and grind some more. Plus 2x safety wraps as the shock loads on waves will overcome the self tailer.

 

We talked about going taller on the rig (I think the BlackJack guys in Oz did that?) but if you started taking spreaders out to optimise the rating even with a redesigned tube it’d scare seven kinds of shit out of me.

 

The combined platform is cool, and pretty solid. It’s designed for 10 or 12 guys to blast around the planet at insane speeds, dodging icebergs and doing dumb shit. And when you lay it down, knowing that the rig did that in big, cold seas and lived gives you some comfort. Every time our navigator started banging on about sail changes according to the matrix we had to remind him that the crossover charts were designed around guys with 3% body fat... and most of us ran with 33% body fat. On a good day.

 

1 hour ago, Chimp too said:

Agree with you there Timmy. The 70s are a nicely balanced boat when it comes to rig configuration against RM. The foil solution on E4/Groupama/whatever is interesting as it looks to be set up to produce lift like a DSS, so reduce displacement and increase RM. So I would suspect that they would reduce keel cant when hard pressed to keep the rig in the boat. That might mean that they end up not needing the daggerboards and the weight and drag of them ends up removed.

My suggestion about changing to an IRC rig based on no knowledge or experience at all. So forget I ever mentioned it.

Anyway, It's a shame that the development and construction of VO70's stopped. 

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Sam,

i think that is understood. E4 was renamed Groupama 70 or Groupama 4 when they bought her before building the Groupama that is now Wizard.

 I know that s couple have extended the boom but what else has been “turboed” with the other 70s? A longer bowsprit was always needed as original design was when the IMOCA rules included rules for 40,50 & 60 footers, all with 6 foot bowsprits. So Glenn Bourke wanted to continue the approach.

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I'm not really sure what turbo mods were done to the various 70's. Wizard is sailing with a rig from 2015, presumably taller than the original. Boat captain Charlie Enright was quoted in a recent North Sails article that they are looking at a rig replacement in the near future, with additional weight savings possible.

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7 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Anyway, It's a shame that the development and construction of VO70's stopped. 

You’re dead right though, they’re a wicked box rule boat, crazy fun and most have a successful post Volvo life. It would have been neat if they’d gone for another cycle and we’d seen 6 or 7 more.

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12 hours ago, samc99us said:

I'm not really sure what turbo mods were done to the various 70's. Wizard is sailing with a rig from 2015, presumably taller than the original. Boat captain Charlie Enright was quoted in a recent North Sails article that they are looking at a rig replacement in the near future, with additional weight savings possible.

If i remember correctly when wizzard was giacomo she lost her rig, it was replaced by a similar rig and a new longer sprit. Pretty sure thats the extent of her mods. 

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I wonder if it would be possible to get the fleet back together and create a new class association. Then we would have a racing fleet again and it would be possible for the rules to be reviewed and new boats to be built. It would be good to get a true offshore option back on the table for owners that wasn't as expensive as the 100 footers, but was a viable offshore and ocean racer, not like the Maxi 72s!

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See now what might have been?

The TOR leapfrogging off the last Edition with a completely new 70 redesign, foils and all.  Even OD would have been interesting and cost effective compared to the current expected budgets.

The 70’s still going hard and breaking records (Wizard etc).  An obvious resale market in the making and like said above, possibly a new class.  

 

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You could even go OD supplies hills and internal structure as well as bulb and spars then allow freedom on fit out and deck layout with box limits. Sensible offshore crew number. Much cheaper and more exciting option in my view.

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When the VO60's retired they were snapped up for cutting edge regional ocean racing (I assume)

When the VO70's retired they were snapped up for cutting edge regional ocean racing 

When the VO65's retired, the VO70's continue to be snapped up for cutting edge regional ocean racing :)

 

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7 hours ago, Chimp too said:

You could even go OD supplies hills and internal structure as well as bulb and spars then allow freedom on fit out and deck layout with box limits. Sensible offshore crew number. Much cheaper and more exciting option in my view.

Nah, you need to allow different designers to come up with their own interpretation about how to evolve boats designed under the rules. 

Rigs, canting mechanisms, deck hardware, watermakers and other items that may break, need repair or servicing during the stopovers should be OD to keep the costs down at the stopovers and allow reduced purchase costs.

I'm inclined to have a class rule sails but allow sailmakers some scope for innovation, as this eventually filters down to mere mortal sailors.

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and like with IMOCA, there should be other races in the off years to get the class together. Maybe there could be a two year circuit.

Year 1 Jan/Feb race from Europe to Caribbean, Regatta and races in Caribbean Feb/March, East coast USA races, Transat, Fastnet, Middle Sea, Ship to Sydney.

Year 2 S2H and Aus regatta. Race to NZ. Passage/sail US for US Westcoast regatta and Transpac. Squeeze in Asia into this circuit as well.

 

That would be great exposure for the sponsors over a 3 year period, including the OR.

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I think that the horse has bolted for the Ocean Race. I am thinking more as a general offshore/ocean class.

 I agree that it would be smarter to OD systems so that a pool of spares could be bought by the class. That was the real benefit for the 65s. OD hull wouldn’t be my choice unless as an option rather than requirement. I think I would leave sails pretty open, but allow any shape including outriggers and quads, as the larger wind range per sail naturally reduces inventory size. 

I would limit structural rules to ISO standard/WS plan review plus a couple of watertight bulkheads, free up appendage Rules, keeping grounding rules and solid steel keel fin. But open up other appendages to allow evolution, as I am sure that when we finally narrow down to the fastest overall option it will be simpler what we are seeing now.

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3 hours ago, Chimp too said:

I think that the horse has bolted for the Ocean Race. I am thinking more as a general offshore/ocean class.

It's bolted, broken it's leg and already been made into glue.

The OR will probably go belly up after the next attempt, so then there will be an opportunity to start up a new RTW ocean race with an evolving VO70 box rule..

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  • 2 months later...
On 10/7/2019 at 6:07 PM, fan said:

Disney showed up this past weekend with his newly redone VO 70 here in Southern California.  No foils though

 

Which one did he get? The Tritium turboed MOD 70 just went up for sale. Should have waited a few months!

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18 minutes ago, mr_ryano said:

Which one did he get? The Tritium turboed MOD 70 just went up for sale. Should have waited a few months!

Looks like The Juan K ex Black Jack ex Telefonica from the 2014-15 race

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1 hour ago, JL92S said:

Just to correct myself it was the 2011-12 race

Right, the last 2 editions were in VO65's of course.

Good to see the VO70's have such a great afterlife, and let's hope Disney will fit some proper Imoca style foils at some point.

 

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5 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Right, the last 2 editions were in VO65's of course.

Good to see the VO70's have such a great afterlife, and let's hope Disney will fit some proper Imoca style foils at some point.

 

I mentioned that as an idea for a test bed for a new open style 70 footer, try new foils etc and then build a new one. A few mentioned that it was easier to use an IMOCA 60 instead. 
Be a great site to see them sailing completely unlimited, forget about ratings etc. 

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3 minutes ago, mad said:

A few mentioned that it was easier to use an IMOCA 60 instead

Probably, but maybe not any good in IRC, as I suppose that's what Disney's intentions are.

With all his money, family tradition and past relationship with Charlie and Mark, one would expect him to sponsor a full fledged TOR Imoca campaign.

But his team might be typical spoiled Californian beach boys, and not up to such a task...

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7 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

So those photos are a few months old now.  Is there any data on how the boat goes?  Didn't see it mentioned anywhere but it appears they're old ETNZ foils based upon the toyota logo.

I noticed the Toyota logo too - seems an interesting bit of recycling..

Boat is in Palma now and did some test sailing just before Christmas but I've not heard any reports on how she goes - only that it now runs on a shoestring budget (not sure how reliable this is and quite what budget it was being compared too to be labelled 'shoestring' - round here that could simply mean that there actually IS a budget rather than an open cheque-book....)

EDIT: Their is a vid on their FB page that shows the first outing with foils - hopefully this embedded link works now...

 

 

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2 minutes ago, NZK said:

I noticed the Toyota logo too - seems an interesting bit or recycling..

Boat is in Palma now and did some test sailing just before Christmas but I've not heard any reports on how she goes - only that it now runs on a shoestring budget (not sure how reliable this is and quite what budget it was being compared too to be labelled 'shoestring' - round here that could simply mean that there actually IS a budget rather than an open cheque-book....)

 

This video from their FB page shows the first outing with foils...

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F1104105512953282%2Fvideos%2F2524975927722213%2F&show_text=0&width=560" width="560" height="315" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allowFullScreen="true"></iframe>

 

STP? If so will have to take a gander.

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1 minute ago, TANGO QUEBEC said:

STP? If so will have to take a gander.

Last i saw it it was in one of the Paseo marinas - Cuarantena or Pantalan, I never fucking remember with those two but you should be able to eyeball the rig. 

The fact she's laid up over there rather than in STP suggests not much is going on for a while... 

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3 minutes ago, NZK said:

Last i saw it it was in one of the Paseo marinas - Cuarantena or Pantalan, I never fucking remember with those two but you should be able to eyeball the rig. 

The fact she's laid up over there rather than in STP suggests not much is going on for a while... 

Copy, yeah should be easy to pick out. Thanks for the heads up.

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On 1/7/2020 at 2:00 PM, mr_ryano said:

Which one did he get? The Tritium turboed MOD 70 just went up for sale. Should have waited a few months!

Afaik, Tritium is not a turboed MOD70 but rather a stretched/turboed ORMA60.

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:10 PM, Timmy Time said:

I’m not sure I’d want to go there. On our VO70 the rule was to FILL the runner winch drum, grind until you couldn’t then find a buddy and grind some more. Plus 2x safety wraps as the shock loads on waves will overcome the self tailer.

 

We talked about going taller on the rig (I think the BlackJack guys in Oz did that?) but if you started taking spreaders out to optimise the rating even with a redesigned tube it’d scare seven kinds of shit out of me.

 

The combined platform is cool, and pretty solid. It’s designed for 10 or 12 guys to blast around the planet at insane speeds, dodging icebergs and doing dumb shit. And when you lay it down, knowing that the rig did that in big, cold seas and lived gives you some comfort. Every time our navigator started banging on about sail changes according to the matrix we had to remind him that the crossover charts were designed around guys with 3% body fat... and most of us ran with 33% body fat. On a good day.

Hahaha.... yes @Timmy Time.. all true.  Except i'm working on 36% body fat but it's on the way down

BJ 70 taller rig
Wizard 70 same height as VOR (so quite standard i believe)
Maserati .. Now BJ's old rig and longer keel with less bulb weight..... I hope we get foils
 

 

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7 hours ago, Trovão said:

Afaik, Tritium is not a turboed MOD70 but rather a stretched/turboed ORMA60.

yes

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