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2 minutes ago, lydia said:

But that is a different question to sail pass

for instance check out the RGYC site  

Quite ironic, really..

"The wind is free" https://www.rgyc.com.au/TheWindIsFree/

"It is mandatory that all who sail out of RGYC have either a Sail Pass or be a current financial member." https://www.rgyc.com.au/members-portal/day-membership-sail-pass/

 

Presumably, they need to add this to every NOR, as they have for FOS: "3.8.2 For skippers and crew who are not current financial members of an AS affiliated club, a Festival of Sails
2020 regatta temporary membership is available at no cost through the following link HERE."

Excellent. </sarc>

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Looks like the law of unintended consequences again strikes again

many people are members of clubs but don’t race 12 times a year or see the club as a social venue

so why join a club but just buy say buy 12 sail passes a year

ditch club membership and sail at whatever club you want by sail pass

 

 

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15 hours ago, grs said:

Oh c'mon Chris.

:-)

haahahaha - I get sledged enough for my own stuff Glen - I really don't have the time nor energy to be hit with yours as well!!! ;-)

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17 hours ago, grs said:

Oh c'mon Chris.

:-)

Glen, this is about the third thread (that I know of) where you make it obvious you are following the thread by posting cryptic and unhelpful remarks, but refuse requests by other posters to contribute in a useful manner.

In this case, the article on the AS website gives you as the contact person for more information, but you won't give any useful information here, despite (spending working hours?) visiting the thread.

How about you man up for a change.  If you are the appointed AS contact for more information, start answering questions posed here by Australian sailors, and addressing the concerns expressed.  Is that too much to ask?

I asked upthread what mischief is currently occurring, that this change to the prescription is purportedly intended to address, and how it is intended to address the mischief - perhaps you could start with that?  TIA.

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29 minutes ago, Recidivist said:

Glen, this is about the third thread (that I know of) where you make it obvious you are following the thread by posting cryptic and unhelpful remarks, but refuse requests by other posters to contribute in a useful manner.

In this case, the article on the AS website gives you as the contact person for more information, but you won't give any useful information here, despite (spending working hours?) visiting the thread.

How about you man up for a change.  If you are the appointed AS contact for more information, start answering questions posed here by Australian sailors, and addressing the concerns expressed.  Is that too much to ask?

I asked upthread what mischief is currently occurring, that this change to the prescription is purportedly intended to address, and how it is intended to address the mischief - perhaps you could start with that?  TIA.

Sounds fair to me. Glen?

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So everything that has been discussed here is correct then

just more dishonesty

everyone needs a sail pass and the club will set the price

and it applies to every sailing race 

so everyone has to pay even though the owner has already paid

so I can’t even take my own family fun racing on my own boat with out paying again 

And even if I am a member of one club I need to buy a sail pass to sail at another club

this of course a different issue to rule 46 but sailpass enables this to happen 

 

 

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So as a member of the RSYS, if I go to do a regatta at another club that has a requirement that all non members have to sign up for a Sailpass do I have to sign up to do that regatta ?

Mornington Yacht Club Charge $15 per day even if you are a member of an Affiliated Yacht Club, so if you are from another club doing a 3 day regatta thats $45 for every crew member

image.thumb.png.7a6e4f25a88c486ddc4b13530df9bbd6.png

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The numbers game is fascinating ... In the above example from Bill E Goat...

  • Counted once as a Member of RSYS
  • Counted 3 times as a Sail Pass participant

so likely counted 4 times as a "participant"  as one person - even though your AS number should actually limit that scenario. And if you do a safety boat course, a club race officials course etc, you get counted again ...

The Sydney Morning Herald did an interesting exercise on these types of stats in relation to cricket .... https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/caught-out-cricket-s-inflated-playing-numbers-revealed-20190720-p5292s.html

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/how-we-exposed-cricket-australia-s-double-counting-20190720-p52923.html

Is sailing operating the same way as cricket?  And is it the Federal funding models that drive such calculations??

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1 hour ago, Stanno said:

The numbers game is fascinating ... In the above example from Bill E Goat...

  • Counted once as a Member of RSYS
  • Counted 3 times as a Sail Pass participant

so likely counted 4 times as a "participant"  as one person - even though your AS number should actually limit that scenario. And if you do a safety boat course, a club race officials course etc, you get counted again ...

The Sydney Morning Herald did an interesting exercise on these types of stats in relation to cricket .... https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/caught-out-cricket-s-inflated-playing-numbers-revealed-20190720-p5292s.html

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/how-we-exposed-cricket-australia-s-double-counting-20190720-p52923.html

Is sailing operating the same way as cricket?  And is it the Federal funding models that drive such calculations??

Either I'm confused or everyone else is.

Why do you need a sail pass if you're a member of RSYS (or any other AS affiliated club).

Isn't sail pass a way of satisfying the requirement to be an AS registered person if you're not a club member? As a member of RSYS you're AS registered so don't need it.

Then over the top of that will be the question of whether another club will let you sail if you;re not a member there. But that question already exists and needn't change unless the clubs decide to change it. Why does Sailpass change it?

Most small clubs have a degree of tolerance for a few visits by visiting sailors before they sail 'join up'. Indeed, the three sails rule tended to overlap here as an informal boundary. The "Royals" seem to have less tolerance (or a more money grabbing attitude; quite undignified really)

To me the real issue is whether the administration of Sailpass will really be as simple as they want us to believe; especially for a club that has no internet on site nor any .administrative staff.

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2 minutes ago, Rambler said:

Either I'm confused or everyone else is.

Why do you need a sail pass if you're a member of RSYS (or any other AS affiliated club).

Isn't sail pass a way of satisfying the requirement to be an AS registered person if you're not a club member? As a member of RSYS you're AS registered so don't need it.

Then over the top of that will be the question of whether another club will let you sail if you;re not a member there. But that question already exists and needn't change unless the clubs decide to change it. Why does Sailpass change it?

Most small clubs have a degree of tolerance for a few visits by visiting sailors before they sail 'join up'. Indeed, the three sails rule tended to overlap here as an informal boundary. The "Royals" seem to have less tolerance (or a more money grabbing attitude; quite undignified really)

To me the real issue is whether the administration of Sailpass will really be as simple as they want us to believe; especially for a club that has no internet on site nor any .administrative staff.

You will need a sailpass from the other club and it is up to that club to decide the price

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Just now, lydia said:

You will need a sailpass from the other club and it is up to that club to decide the price

Why?

You're already a member of AS. You satisfy rule 46. Who says? You don't need sailpass to meet the rule.

If it's the other club, that's the club rule, not AS's one and clubs already have rules about visiting members which are either extortionate or generous depending on the club.

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2 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

So as a member of the RSYS, if I go to do a regatta at another club that has a requirement that all non members have to sign up for a Sailpass do I have to sign up to do that regatta ?

Mornington Yacht Club Charge $15 per day even if you are a member of an Affiliated Yacht Club, so if you are from another club doing a 3 day regatta thats $45 for every crew member

image.thumb.png.7a6e4f25a88c486ddc4b13530df9bbd6.png

You will need sailpass but cost will be up to the other club it seems

so $45.00 for you

the market will eventually decide but will be corrupt to start with

owners will not do regattas at expensive clubs

some clubs will say you need sailpass but the charge per day is nil for cerrain events I suspect

others will say $100.00 a day for a major regatta

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1 minute ago, Rambler said:

Why?

You're already a member of AS. You satisfy rule 46. Who says? You don't need sailpass to meet the rule.

If it's the other club, that's the club rule, not AS's one and clubs already have rules about visiting members which are either extortionate or generous depending on the club.

It is the club part which is enabled by sailpass

twi different issues 

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1 hour ago, Stanno said:

The numbers game is fascinating ... In the above example from Bill E Goat...

  • Counted once as a Member of RSYS
  • Counted 3 times as a Sail Pass participant

so likely counted 4 times as a "participant"  as one person - even though your AS number should actually limit that scenario. And if you do a safety boat course, a club race officials course etc, you get counted again ...

The Sydney Morning Herald did an interesting exercise on these types of stats in relation to cricket .... https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/caught-out-cricket-s-inflated-playing-numbers-revealed-20190720-p5292s.html

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/how-we-exposed-cricket-australia-s-double-counting-20190720-p52923.html

Is sailing operating the same way as cricket?  And is it the Federal funding models that drive such calculations??

Should make all the school sailing / racing programs an interesting proposition.

edit: Now that I think about it, years ago the competitive Snow Ski community had very few registered participants = a lack of funding from Govt.

Now they make each of the of the little darling interschool competitors sign up here https://www.snowracer.com.au/home/ at least its free, and claim them as their own for participant numbers, = in the 1000s now :) 

 

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1 minute ago, lydia said:

It is the club part which is enabled by sailpass

twi different issues 

But I think that's my point.

What says you need a club specific Sailpass to satisfy rule 46? You simply need to be a member of AS

And if not, what other rule mandates its use (other than a rule the club, rather than AS, controls)?

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If a club doesn't bother to check that every crew on every boat is a member of a SA affiliated club, what does AS intend to do about that?

C'mon Glen, this isn't addressed in your FAQs - got an answer for us?

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In this case despite being a member of another club all crew still need to pay $15 per day to compete as all non members have to purchase a sailpass.  I guess to cover the cost of having a piss in their toilet and a drink in the bar.  Entry fees cover the cost of the Race Committee.

Now what happens if the club you sail at has reciprocal rights with your club ?

How does it work with offshore races if a club requires non members to pay a day rate, do you pay for both the starting club and the finishing club, a three day race do you pay for three days.

Try this scenario.  The CYCA requires all non members to have a sailpass at a cost of $15 per day.  Hobart race 100 boats, 800 crew, 75% not members of the CYCA, 3 day race, $27,000 in extra revenue.  RYCT also have same rule, so do they get $27,000 as well ?

It is a good idea but completely fucked in its execution(Is anyone surprised).  People will join a club IF they see value in it and that is for the clubs to make sure people do but to force people to join a club if they see no value will just make them not come back  

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But these seem to be club imposed rules; not greatly different to those some clubs already have.

Maybe I'm talking from the point of view of small to medium clubs -both dinghy and yacht - which are tolerant of visitors while still wanting to comply with AS rules You guys seem to be really complaining about the avarice of "royal" and licensed yacht clubs. Deal with that at the club level, because that's where the problem is.

What I want to see is two things

-- A Sailpass system that requires absolutely no input or effort by club officials for walk in's and no internet at the club. No more than "can you follow those instructions on the board there and show me the pass on your phone when you've done it". If we don't have that, I'll scream even louder than you guys.

-- It's time for AS to once again provide proof of membership to members. How do we enforce their rule if we simply have to take the word for the walk in that they're already a member of another club, and thus of AS - remembering no internet at the club and no one to do administration. Again, if they don't provide that, it' a failed system. Step up on this issue AS. Now.

I'm not seeking to defend AS. They swallow up a whole lot of monies from clubs on the front line of developing sailing and give absolutely nothing in return. They are simply predators on the general sailing community in pursuit of KPI's and objectives the general sailing community cares nothing about and I object to that as much as anyone.

But if we're stuck with this system I'm unrelenting in insisting it work without any ivory tower beliefs by them as to how it should be administered. And for that I need the real issues to be clear.

 

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Now  I have to pay for something I did not have to pay for.

and i have always enjoyed visiting others clubs when away

The point of joining  an affiliated club, to visit others clubs

Now i just won’t

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Sorry Lydia

I usually respect your insightfulness on posts.

The new rule is this

From 1 January 2021 the Australian Sailing prescription to the rule will be amended to require that all crew of any race are members of an affiliated club; and also registered with Australian Sailing- regardless of the number of races they have competed in.

What in the change to rule 46 changes the outcome you had before. Rule 46 does not change this outcome. You don't need a sailpass to do that (under rule 46). You do however need proof of your membership of another club.

Or what am I missing?

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Think of this way.

RRS 46 change in introduced to capture the newbie market and “encourage” them to join a club straight up.

 sailpass is introduced by AS then allows the clubs to administer this

all good.

But look how sailpass is actually used.

For clubs to track and charge already registered sailors as they move between clubs.

sure it is a club issue but it is enabled by sailpass and with AS blessing, registered sailors are now charged in respect to something they were not previously (and it looks like at least outside Victoria)

So the nexus between sailing in a AS event at an affiliated club and the right to enter that  host club for that purpose has now been severed.

importanly the nexus between the host club and a centralised administration of the sport is now nonexistent.

Whether that is severed by club rule or not, it is with the consent of AS.

The host club and the sport are no longer the same thing even if you an affiliated sailor

 

 

 

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"For clubs to track and charge already registered sailors as they move between clubs.

sure it is a club issue but it is enabled by sailpass and with AS blessing, registered sailors are now charged in respect to something they were to previously.

So the nexus between sailing in a AS event at an affiliated club and the right to enter that  host club for that purpose has now been severed."

 

So it is something in this statement we are departing from each other on.

I'm not sure what you mean by an AS event. I know there has been some talk of the "Australian Yachting Championships" and other such events which are AS organised. I will admit I am not focused on that sort of event; nor on the machinations of the RQYS and like clubs (although I don't see why the answers are any different). I'm focused on

- Non AS affiliated individual walk in's on regular club days

_ Interclub regattas (even up to Sail Paradise - or whatever it's now called - and similar regattas) entered by members of AS affiliated clubs

- Association organised State and National championships entered by members of AS affiliated clubs.

I don't need a sailpass for any of those events except the firsts. It is irrelevant to me isn't it? I just don't need to go near the system. I just need to establish that I am a member of another AS affiliated club. I may need proof of membership; which AS doesn't presently provide. That has to change. 

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6 minutes ago, Rambler said:

"For clubs to track and charge already registered sailors as they move between clubs.

sure it is a club issue but it is enabled by sailpass and with AS blessing, registered sailors are now charged in respect to something they were to previously.

So the nexus between sailing in a AS event at an affiliated club and the right to enter that  host club for that purpose has now been severed."

 

So it is something in this statement we are departing from each other on.

I'm not sure what you mean by an AS event. I know there has been some talk of the "Australian Yachting Championships" and other such events which are AS organised. I will admit I am not focused on that sort of event; nor on the machinations of the RQYS and like clubs (although I don't see why the answers are any different). I'm focused on

- Non AS affiliated individual walk in's on regular club days

_ Interclub regattas (even up to Sail Paradise - or whatever it's now called - and similar regattas) entered by members of AS affiliated clubs

- Association organised State and National championships entered by members of AS affiliated clubs.

I don't need a sailpass for any of those events except the firsts. It is irrelevant to me isn't it? I just don't need to go near the system. I just need to establish that I am a member of another AS affiliated club. I may need proof of membership; which AS doesn't presently provide. That has to change. 

That is were we differ.

On my reading you will need a sailpass for those last two events if they are at a club of which you are not a member

Cherck out the RGYC site for instance

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Just now, lydia said:

That is were we differ.

On my reading you will need a sailpass for those last three events if they are a club of which you are not a member

Cherck out the RGYC site for instance

Ah

OK, but is that really an issue for RGYC. Are they misunderstanding the system?

Is there anything you've seen that suggests they've got it right?

(And I ask this question so we can follow up with our own club AS rep at a coming meeting.)

It strikes me the real problem is with the arrogance and avarice of the royal clubs.

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I looked at the RGYC site

The Sail Pass seems to be there's, not AS's. [no I got this wrong]

Someone has stolen the name from someone else. That is a problem and cause of confusion. AS should not let that happen. It could even be a form of passing off or something like that (misleading conduct maybe)

I would argue this is a misuse of the AS sailpass. But I see where you're coming from as far as RGYC is concerned. It does give me something to raise with the AS rep

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20 minutes ago, Rambler said:

Ah

OK, but is that really an issue for RGYC. Are they misunderstanding the system?

Is there anything you've seen that suggests they've got it right?

(And I ask this question so we can follow up with our own club AS rep at a coming meeting.)

It strikes me the real problem is with the arrogance and avarice of the royal clubs.

RGYC is not the only just lan example

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29 minutes ago, Rambler said:

Ah

OK, but is that really an issue for RGYC. Are they misunderstanding the system?

Is there anything you've seen that suggests they've got it right?

(And I ask this question so we can follow up with our own club AS rep at a coming meeting.)

It strikes me the real problem is with the arrogance and avarice of the royal clubs.

If you are chasing your QLD representative, he is in hiding after been pursued by some angry trailer sailor guys who had just been told they could not sail in the Bay to Bay

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So if I step back (and think about what I'd like to discuss with AS), it seems to me the problem is that (either because of the AS system or it's misuse by clubs), the SailPass system, which really (I think) should only be used for non AS members, is being overlapped with proof of membership for AS members visiting other clubs.

If clubs want to charge visiting AS members (non members of their own club) it should be something that occurs more transparently, not by meshing it with Sail Pass. I do find the RGYC site at best ambiguous, and possibly misleading in its set-out and approach

Instead there should be a much simpler 'proof of membership' arrangement when visiting another club. If they then want to charge you, there should be no doubt as to who's collecting the fee and what it is for.

You're right. I does become a hellishly complex system if visiting AS members at a regatta have to go through the sailpass system. More so if its a multiday regatta.

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So, 

Australia has sufficient sailors that it can charge them individually for the privilege of participating as crew, when the boat's been entered and fee paid by an affiliated member of whatever organization(s) are relevant? 

I get the concept of charging to park,  in always limited space to encourage carpooling and discourage misuse of expensive waterside real estate. 

I understand wanting all participants to sign in and perhaps have a guest vs member's tag on private clubs based on legal/liability issues and the general regatta rambunctiousness that historically applies for accountability. If the club has facilities that require maintenance such as pool, showers and locker rooms, a day use charge may be appropriate.

Requiring some level of documentation for rating, measurement, safety at sea and other qualifications, with vessel inspections and checkin's  as appropriate makes sense to improve safety and should be a consideration for accepting an entry. 

I support wanting to have contact information for the boat,  and an accurate crew list if there's reasonable chance of anyone going astray. (perhaps by category, or something other than buoy racing on a closed course). Requiring that there be aboard and responsible a suitably credentialed and insured person (and insurance can be guaranteed by organization membership) is even reasonable. 

What I am simply not comprehending is why any organization, has a right to charge people sitting on my boat in public water, while sailing around some marks sitting in that same public water? 

 

 

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On 2/6/2020 at 8:17 AM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

 

Me and all my imaginary friends are now free to sail for a very long while, as long as I can remember all my names.

 

Why not just use the same spreadsheet program that you use to keep track of all your sock puppets with?

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7 hours ago, Recidivist said:

If a club doesn't bother to check that every crew on every boat is a member of a SA affiliated club, what does AS intend to do about that?

C'mon Glen, this isn't addressed in your FAQs - got an answer for us?

FAQ stands for ‘Frequently Avoided Questions’

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13 hours ago, Jethrow said:

Hmmm, I'll just put this here and you can draw your own conclusions

https://www.sailing.org.au/news/faq-changes-to-rule-46/

I'm certainly not an australian lawyer but this seems a stretch: " Sailing clubs have a duty of care for all participants in every race they run. For clubs to not have the details of the participants competing in an organised competition is contrary to that duty of care, so through the registration of participants as members (introductory or full) clubs can capture the vital details they need should an emergency arise."

...so in all situations where someone/or an organization has a "duty of care" they need to get personal information??? 

 

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26 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

 

What I am simply not comprehending is why any organization, has a right to charge people sitting on my boat in public water, while sailing around some marks sitting in that same public water? 

 

 

Delusions of grandeur?  It is the same mindset that caused YA to be excluded from any involvement in the commercial sail training industry a few years back. A misplaced sense of entitlement.

I am currently attending the RYA conference in the UK. The difference in the competency of the two organisations is mind blowing. 

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7 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I'm certainly not an australian lawyer but this seems a stretch: " Sailing clubs have a duty of care for all participants in every race they run. For clubs to not have the details of the participants competing in an organised competition is contrary to that duty of care, so through the registration of participants as members (introductory or full) clubs can capture the vital details they need should an emergency arise."

...so in all situations where someone/or an organization has a "duty of care" they need to get personal information??? 

 

Read the rules of yacht racing. The duty of care falls to the skipper and owner of the boat. Clubs and AS need to understand that the more responsibility they take on, then the more responsibility they take on.

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20 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Name and emergency contact would be sensible

banking codes not so much

 

1. So you would view it as sensible that all the clubs where you race would collect contact info for all people onboard all the boats in any race...do you know any clubs outside Australia that do that?

2. So you would view it as sensible that any org with a "duty of care" would collect that information. per Wikipedia,  Australian law... occupiers of a premises automatically owe a duty of care to any person on their premises.

So you would view it as reasonable for a shopping center to collect your data on the way in?

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32 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Read the rules of yacht racing. The duty of care falls to the skipper and owner of the boat. Clubs and AS need to understand that the more responsibility they take on, then the more responsibility they take on.

I've read the RRS a few times.

I'm comfortable that the skipper should be responsible. I'm not arguing that AS or the Club has "a duty of care"...AS is arguing that. I think to some extent australian law probably does impose some "duty of care" on the club...even if it is just to maintain their docks so they are not dangerous etc.

I'm skeptical that a "duty of care" then requires collecting information on all people who that you have a duty to and failing to collect that information is "contrary to that duty of care"...

but I'm not a lawyer so maybe AS are right (I doubt it)

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In have not been able to find personal injury litigation where AS has been a party.

Indeed In a quick look have not been able to find one where even the club is a party

Always owners are the party

 

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5 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Read the rules of yacht racing. The duty of care falls to the skipper and owner of the boat. Clubs and AS need to understand that the more responsibility they take on, then the more responsibility they take on.

The rules of yacht racing are quite distinct from the australian law of negligence.

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https://www.sailing.org.au/news/faq-changes-to-rule-46/

One of their comments is

4.    I am already a member at an affiliated club. Will this affect me?
No, the change only applies to those not a member of an Australian Sailing affiliated club.

So, if RGYC are using Sailpass to charge AS affiliated members of another club when they sail at RGYC, either Sailpass is being misused or the statement is misleading.

It may well be that RGYC is entitled to make that charge, but it shouldn't be through Sailpass.

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18 minutes ago, Rambler said:

https://www.sailing.org.au/news/faq-changes-to-rule-46/

One of their comments is

4.    I am already a member at an affiliated club. Will this affect me?
No, the change only applies to those not a member of an Australian Sailing affiliated club.

So, if RGYC are using Sailpass to charge AS affiliated members of another club when they sail at RGYC, either Sailpass is being misused or the statement is misleading.

It may well be that RGYC is entitled to make that charge, but it shouldn't be through Sailpass.

Like I said, just dishonesty

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The key word is on the RGYC site

The “drop-in sailer”

if are not a member of the host club even if a member of another affiliated club you a drop-in sailer

someone from AS and RGYC want to tell me I got this wrong

As I travel a bit for work and usually try to get a sail at different clubs when away I am a new catergory now namely the “drop-in sailer”

So I am in Canberra next Friday for work entertaining three legal people there for about 20 minutes then might stay the weekend

i better check if I am a drop in sailer at the local club

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A couple of points with the Sail Pass system.

1/ My club membership has been lapsed for a few years now as we are off cruising and have no use for it.

I notice that AUSTRALIAN SAILING still have my AS membership as ACTIVE.

Is this a deliberate ploy by AS to inflate its membership numbers to RORT the public purse.

WTF

2/ AS membership numbers are available to anyone.

If one fills out the "I forgot my AS number" section in the Sail Pass application with a totally fictitious name,

like, say, the club commodores ,  we get their AS number

Should we use this AS number when applying for a sail pass? :) 

 

 

 

 

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Yep I had two as well for a long time some regatta entry nazi refused entry for not the right number

both were right

seems I had joined a small country club and AS had started a new entry for me based on that

what no body bothered to check as there were three other clubs on the original nos

i assume you can’t have more than one address or a second interstate address otherwise computer says no

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2 minutes ago, Secret Experiment said:

Ha, that's nothing, I've got three AS numbers, two of which are active.

 

Just had a thought, any unaffiliated crew out there who'd like to rent one of my spare ones?  Sounds like this might be a business opportunity.....  Of course there's a couple of clubs you'll need to steer clear of.

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Can’t wait until glen Stanaway leaves Tasmania and wants to go sailing and needs to buy a sailpass.

I will shout lunch for anyone who gets evidence of that.

It is a club thing now not an AS thing!

surely As staff are not exempt from club rules

Sorry and not aimed at you personally but just illustrating the point

L

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Most keel boat clubs in Melbourne are enforcing the Sailpass system as well as mandatory crew registration Apps. I assume this rule is to ensure all crew members insurance liabilities are covered. Gone are the days you are able to do a ring around on Friday to find crew from other clubs to fill all your crew spots for the Saturday race.

I feel sorry for the small keel boat clubs who do not have a large membership base to find crew from as it is a bit harsh to ask crew to pay the sailpass fee when they are already members of other clubs! 

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7 minutes ago, Chucky said:

Most keel boat clubs in Melbourne are enforcing the Sailpass system as well as mandatory crew registration Apps. I assume this rule is to ensure all crew members insurance liabilities are covered. Gone are the days you are able to do a ring around on Friday to find crew from other clubs to fill all your crew spots for the Saturday race.

I feel sorry for the small keel boat clubs who do not have a large membership base to find crew from as it is a bit harsh to ask crew to pay the sailpass fee when they are already members of other clubs! 

So you get the result the clubs actually want.

only club members can sail on the boats of club members.

one club I am a member of enforce this by eligibility in the NOR.

so it is just a dishonest way to increase membership numbers

Few people race regularly there

so why doesn’t AS have the guts to come out and say “only members of a club can sail on boat as from that club”

that’s right that is a club issue and we do not upset the big clubs as we will go broke sooner.

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1 minute ago, lydia said:

The insurance rationale is just bullshit.

it is token policy in any event.

Check out the cover.

Compare it the owners boat policy liability cover

I wonder if anyone has actually tried to make a claim ?  

AS spent $465,093 on insurance last year ?

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There have been claims and payouts previously when terms were different 

it is last resort policy now so if no other cover

boat owners policy will normally answer the claim

different with the club official and volunteer policy and not sure there has ever been a payout there or even legal costs cover

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The insurance page is down now, so I don't know what the current position is.

But there's a fundamental difference between your boat's third party insurance and the (former) AS policy. They are not comparable.

A claim can only be made under your boat's insurance if the owner/skipper has been guilty of negligence.

The AS policy covered specified medical expenses (and offered a modicum of what might be called pain and suffering compensation) for a physical injury whether negligence was involved or not. But it as by no means a generous policy. Still I have see it cover expenses for a broken toe and a dislodged tooth (in two separate claims)

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2 hours ago, Chucky said:

Most keel boat clubs in Melbourne are enforcing the Sailpass system as well as mandatory crew registration Apps. I assume this rule is to ensure all crew members insurance liabilities are covered. Gone are the days you are able to do a ring around on Friday to find crew from other clubs to fill all your crew spots for the Saturday race.

I feel sorry for the small keel boat clubs who do not have a large membership base to find crew from as it is a bit harsh to ask crew to pay the sailpass fee when they are already members of other clubs! 

I wonder which insurance paid the hospital bills when a mast dropped crushing a crew member in the ORCV race last year?

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20 minutes ago, Rambler said:

The insurance page is down now, so I don't know what the current position is.

But there's a fundamental difference between your boat's third party insurance and the (former) AS policy. They are not comparable.

A claim can only be made under your boat's insurance if the owner/skipper has been guilty of negligence.

The AS policy covered specified medical expenses (and offered a modicum of what might be called pain and suffering compensation) for a physical injury whether negligence was involved or not. But it as by no means a generous policy. Still I have see it cover expenses for a broken toe and a dislodged tooth (in two separate claims)

You make the claim it is whether the policy answers

law is very different now with limitation of liability legislation

No ability to bring proceedings in respect to injury incurred in a “dangerous recreational activity”

wording might be a little different between jurisdictions

 

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8 minutes ago, lydia said:

You make the claim it is whether the policy answers

law is very different now with limitation of liability legislation

No ability to bring proceedings in respect to injury incurred in a “dangerous recreational activity”

wording might be a little different between jurisdictions

 

Yes I agree

It was me who first wrote and introduced the "Risk Notice" that eventually, after some silly modifications, was used by many clubs in NSW in the late 90's and early 2000's; to obtain protection from the NSW limitation of liability legislation .

But the AS policy wasn't based on risk or negligence. It was a simple personal accident policy. That's why it's so different from any cover under the boat insurance.

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1 hour ago, lydia said:

Also why the cover is so poor

Absolutely. Not completely junk, but close to it. 

So we can both agree that's it doesn't really justify getting excited about Sailpass (at least in a positive sense)

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The insurance argument is just dishonest but AS get away with as people accept what they are told by the peak body

 

And remember almost everyone has some tpd cover in thier super nowadays if it is a major accident 

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Getting back to regattas.... and giving owners what they want have a look at the entry list for Bellerive Yacht Clubs Crown series entries.

Currently ...

Div 1 ( 7 Windward Leeward/ Olympic style courses) around 10 or so entries.

Performance Cruising (around the cans) around 30 entries. The interesting thing is entries includes Melges 32, Farr 40, and 30 foot new-build canting keel.

Seems to me that all clubs need to get the owners in the room and understand what the owners need to invest their time and money.

For me I like shorter courses and plenty of work for the crews. I'm time poor and want to go out, race hard and get back to my family. Others like long courses and not as much work which is terrific if you're short of crew or enjoy spending most of the day out.

Both have a role.

The sport is changing and our grass roots owners will ultimately decide if the next gen sail, try go Go-Karting, or spend their money upgrading the PlayStation.

Whats killing our sport is the lack of new crew. Owners are sick of sailing short. How do we fix this?

Jeff

 

 

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12 hours ago, jeff said:

 

Whats killing our sport is the lack of new crew. Owners are sick of sailing short. How do we fix this?

Jeff

 

 

Assuming you're not talking about a grand prix racer, teach them yourself. That's speaking from personal experience. Find an avenue into a group of young adults (20 to 40) who have never sailed before and teach them from scratch. Put an add up at your local Uni offering free sailing lessons to them as part of the crewing experience. Organise some formal theory days where you teach them coastal navigation or how a yacht s put together (engine, water systems - everything under the floorboards and cockpit).

Yes, that's where AS and the clubs wanting to milk the crews for bottomless amounts of money become problematic - join a cheaper club.

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Now that Dail Pass or whatever the app that manages the day membership for non members of the club your racing at, is compulsory who is the first responder to an incident aboard a racing yacht.

My club whose name I will not mention claims the Sail Pass is all about safety. So that means they have all the contact details of every person onboard, so if I have an injury on board requiring medical attention, THE CLUB should be the first point of contact, no matter what the time of day, or day of the week. If i'm racing they are taking responsibility for first contact. If they do not respond and the injured party dies, what happens??

I'm curious to know from those in a position to offer an answer

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^^^^^^ Well Don.....excellent question... and given the examples where your club has been the first responder to another clubs event....an interesting one! Keen to hear from anyone with legal liability experience. Amnd yep...your club does play that "Safety is the reason we need to take your money so you can sail with a club member friend on his/her boat" It really feels like an excuse...

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How does what AS and affiliated clubs are saying work within the Maritime Safety Victorian "Safety Duties" see below as copied from the website.

Specifically see the Masters Responsibilities "the representative of these people"

Owner onus

Under the Marine Safety Act an owner onus system for certain offences has been established.

The system is based on the principle that, if the identity of the master or person in charge is not established at the time the offence is detected, the owner should generally be liable for the offence unless they can establish that they were not responsible for the vessel at the time of the offence and provide information sufficient to identify and locate who was.

An owner will not be deemed to be guilty of an owner onus offence if they provide one of the following statements within the required period which satisfies the requirements under the Marine Safety Act:

  • an illegal user statement
  • a known user statement
  • a sold vessel statement, or
  • an unknown user statement.

Requirement to report incidents

Under the Marine Safety Act reportable marine incidents includes:

  • the loss or presumed loss of a vessel
  • a collision with another vessel or object
  • grounding, sinking or flooding
  • a capsized vessel
  • fire
  • a structural failure or loss of stability
  • a close quarters
  • person overboard
  • vessel becoming disabled and requiring assistance
  • the fouling or damaging of any pipeline, submarine cable, lighthouse, lightship, beacon, buoy or marine mark

Masters' responsibilities

Under the Marine Safety Act, a master is the person in charge of a vessel. If the master is involved in a reportable incident, they are required to:

  • immediately stop and secure the vessel
  • immediately provide whatever assistance you can
  • provide your contact details, the owners name and address, in addition to the registration or survey number to:
    • any injured person
    • the owner of any property which has been damaged
    • the representative of these people
    • the police present at the scene
  • report in person to the most accessible police station if a person is injured or property damaged and the police or owner of the property are not present

Who should I contact?

  • If you require urgent assistance, dial triple zero (000) for the emergency services and request police assistance
  • If an incident has occurred but you are not in any immediate danger, report it to Victoria Police on 1800 135 729.

Reporting incidents

The Marine Safety Act requires the master to provide the following details to the police present at the scene:

  • the name and address of the master
  • the name and address of the owner of the vessel
  • the registration or survey number of the vessel.

If a person is injured and no police members are present, the master must report full details at the closest police station as soon as possible.

If any property is damaged or destroyed, and the owner, the owner's representative or police are not present, the master must report full details at the closest police station as soon as possible.

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On 2/8/2020 at 6:39 AM, KC375 said:

1. So you would view it as sensible that all the clubs where you race would collect contact info for all people onboard all the boats in any race...do you know any clubs outside Australia that do that?

2. So you would view it as sensible that any org with a "duty of care" would collect that information. per Wikipedia,  Australian law... occupiers of a premises automatically owe a duty of care to any person on their premises.

So you would view it as reasonable for a shopping center to collect your data on the way in?

I had to provide contact info for the 3BF race. And I believe that any races that go out of the Gate require it as well. In our beercans, not so much. Depends on the race and risk. 

As regards Duty of care: In California, all of the private clubs that I am aware of require members to wear some type of identity badge with their name on it, and and visitors to sign in, giving host/affiliation (if reciprocal) and wear a temporary sticker. It's a requirement of the liquor licensing of a "private club". 

And the shopping centers have been doing that for a long time here, with loyalty programs that key to your phone's ESN. They know how long you were in front of what section of the inventory, not to mention what you normally buy, and print the coupons to prompt your regular purchases 

 

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22 hours ago, jeff said:

Getting back to regattas.... and giving owners what they want have a look at the entry list for Bellerive Yacht Clubs Crown series entries.

 

As the first big Hobart event of the year run by an individual club, as opposed to pennant racing under the auspices of the Combined Clubs, will BYC be implementing the Sail Pass requirement for all non BYC members competing in the Crown Series? And if not, as I hope, why not? 

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13 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

As the first big Hobart event of the year run by an individual club, as opposed to pennant racing under the auspices of the Combined Clubs, will BYC be implementing the Sail Pass requirement for all non BYC members competing in the Crown Series? And if not, as I hope, why not? 

According to the BYC website, currently there is no charge for sailpass presently but you only get 6 a year.

Hobart will have the same problem as Brisbane and unlike say Melbourne.

Too many boats and not enough crew from one single club to sail them.

Also the sailpass description only talks about arrangements between "combined club" clubs so guess Kettering, Cygnet and Port Esperance do not get to play.

So our favourite crayfisherman might need to buy sailpasses pirate

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1 minute ago, lydia said:

Also the sailpass description only talks about arrangements between "combined club" clubs so guess Kettering, Cygnet and Port Esperance do not get to play.

So our favourite crayfisherman might need to buy sailpasses pirate

I'd like to see his reaction if they tried! But in case they do, and Kettering, Cygnet, Port Esperance members are forced to pay up, then tit for tat will see the prospective revenue from entrants in the Cygnet Regatta, Dover Regatta and Pipe Opener go through the roof.

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16 minutes ago, lydia said:

Also the sailpass description only talks about arrangements between "combined club" clubs so guess Kettering, Cygnet and Port Esperance do not get to play.

 

Don't ya know that BYC, DSS and RYCT are the "senior" clubs in southern Tassie (phrase in common use when I was last a member of one of them).

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20 minutes ago, (p)Irate said:

I'd like to see his reaction if they tried! But in case they do, and Kettering, Cygnet, Port Esperance members are forced to pay up, then tit for tat will see the prospective revenue from entrants in the Cygnet Regatta, Dover Regatta and Pipe Opener go through the roof.

A useful strategy for rural Tasmanian clubs is to charge per head, doubles the revenue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, had to do it!

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48 minutes ago, Secret Experiment said:

A useful strategy for rural Tasmanian clubs is to charge per head, doubles the revenue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, had to do it!

Like any good drug dealer, sailpass works on the number of smart phones in your possession and not heads!

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On 2/8/2020 at 8:47 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

The rules of yacht racing are quite distinct from the australian law of negligence.

Oddly enough as a commercial master for 25 years who employs 15 other commercial masters and is retained as a expert witness in maritime inquiries, I have a rough idea about Australian maritime law, duty of care,  insurance and contract law. But thanks for your input.

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Just arrived in Milan and as soon as the guy in immigration saw I was from Brisbane he asked me if I had read the courier mail article yet! It’s all anyone in Italy is talking about. Just read the media realise. Looks like RQ have their own little bushfire burning out of control.

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On 2/8/2020 at 9:15 PM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

A couple of points with the Sail Pass system.

1/ My club membership has been lapsed for a few years now as we are off cruising and have no use for it.

I notice that AUSTRALIAN SAILING still have my AS membership as ACTIVE.

Is this a deliberate ploy by AS to inflate its membership numbers to RORT the public purse.

WTF

2/ AS membership numbers are available to anyone.

If one fills out the "I forgot my AS number" section in the Sail Pass application with a totally fictitious name,

like, say, the club commodores ,  we get their AS number

Should we use this AS number when applying for a sail pass? :) 

 

 

 

 

Read the courier mail today? Bwhahaha. Looks like your ‘tribe’ have a bit on. As a women do you stand on violence against women?

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I (thankfully) no longer sail due to alternative commitments though when we actively raced, we regularly had to find someone to jump on just to tail a sheet or be a bilge rat. These were people I went to school with, work colleagues etc. these people coming along enjoyed the experience or didn't. Some came back, some didn't.

Regardless, they all went up to the club and spent money after the race along with the majority of the team.

This rule will push a lot of boats off the water and will discourage a lot of people dipping their toes into sailing.

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Just arrived in Milan and as soon as the guy in immigration saw I was from Brisbane he asked me if I had read the courier mail article yet! It’s all anyone in Italy is talking about. Just read the media realise. Looks like RQ have their own little bushfire burning out of control.

Oh dear. That is rather scandalous isn't it. It will be interesting to see how the club handles this one.

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10 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

I had to provide contact info for the 3BF race. And I believe that any races that go out of the Gate require it as well. In our beercans, not so much. Depends on the race and risk. 

As regards Duty of care: In California, all of the private clubs that I am aware of require members to wear some type of identity badge with their name on it, and and visitors to sign in, giving host/affiliation (if reciprocal) and wear a temporary sticker. It's a requirement of the liquor licensing of a "private club". 

And the shopping centers have been doing that for a long time here, with loyalty programs that key to your phone's ESN. They know how long you were in front of what section of the inventory, not to mention what you normally buy, and print the coupons to prompt your regular purchases 

 

I nearly moved to California in the 90’s. I got close to putting in an offer on house in Half Moon Bay. I’ve always had a tinge of regret not doing that. From what you write it seems I’m lucky I didn’t. I don’t think I’d be comfortable with the invasion of privacy that you describe as the norm. I prefer to go shopping without identifying myself and my movements....and yes I carry my phone in a Faraday bag when I don’t need to use it...

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